Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

Make It Easier to Remove Bad Cops

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by

James A. Bacon
in

by James A. Bacon

The overwhelming majority of Virginia policemen and deputies are good people doing a creditable job under often-trying circumstances. But not all. Every profession has its bad apples. And in Virginia, state law makes it impossible to strip officers of their certification unless they have been convicted of a felony or certain misdemeanors. Even then, some manage to stay on the job.

The Virginian-Pilot provides a list of convicted criminals who still have police certifications. including:

  • A former Hampton detective who pleaded guilty in federal court to providing a local drug dealer with information while working as a narcotics detective.
  • A former Henrico County sheriff’s deputy who pleaded guilty to having a sexual relationship with an inmate.
  • A former school resource officer in Bedford County who was initially charged with abducting a teenage girl and taking her to Kentucky. He pleaded guilty to five counts of indecent liberties with a minor.
  • A Dinwiddie sheriff’s deputy who was found guilty of assault and battery after he pulled over his ex-fiancé and forced her to the ground and pepper sprayed her.

A bill drafted by Mamie Locke, D-Hampton and Scott Surovell, D-Mount Vernon, would broaden the criteria for decertification. The proposal would give the Department of Criminal Justice Services (DCJS) responsibility for setting state-wide standards for police, and give the board the power to decertify officers who violate those standards.

A long-standing problem is that officers may resign or get fired from one department and find a job elsewhere without repercussions for their misconduct, says the Pilot. The state Fraternal order of Police also supports legislation proposed by the Chiefs of Police Association that would prevent officers from jumping from department to department. Smaller departments often lack the resources to do careful background checks.

Bacon’s bottom line: Many of the law-enforcement reform proposals emanating from Democrats this summer are of dubious benefit. But weeding out the bad cops is an idea that everyone can get behind. There the usual turf issues involved here. Who should have the ultimate power to decertify an officer: police chiefs and sheriffs or the DCJS? Hopefully, those differences can be worked out. It would be a shame to miss the opportunity to improve the quality of law enforcement in Virginia.

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45 responses to “Make It Easier to Remove Bad Cops”

  1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    One has to take the permitted actions. Look at Minneapolis’ Woke Mayor Jacob Frey, beat up the Democratic incumbent for failing to identify and remove bad cops, but failed to do so. If Frey had done is job, Chauvin and Thao would not have been on the Mpls. police force in late May. More important is George Floyd would most likely be alive today.

    But Frey receives full protection from the rest of the Woke politicians, weak-kneed Democrats and the filth of America, the MSM.

  2. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    The Federal background checks – at least the ones for being cleared to handle classified material actually relate more to who you associate with, do you travel overseas and why and do you have behaviors that would make you vulnerable to blackmail, etc.

    But for employment, they do check things like criminal records, etc.

    Cops who actually break the law that applies to everyone are different from what is considered a “bad cop” – which I do not think we actually have a common criteria. This guy Chauvin – before the video, even though he had complaints has got a fair amount of company. Some police consider complaints as a measure of effectiveness, i.e. if you have no complaints against you, are you really doing your job?

    Cops can and do push the envelope and that, in and of itself, is not necessarily grounds for dismissal although some of these new measures may tighten that up.

    I find it a little incongruous that another thread this morning is about turning criminals loose!

    We seem to have a system that is tough on crime – but not so tough on bad cops.

    People think it’s not so bad that we only have a “few” bad cops but bad cops who stay on the force – change the way other cops operate also. Sometimes the un-stated rule is: “don’t jam up your fellow cops – look the other way”. To me, that’s how Chauvin managed to stay on the force even with complaints lodged.

    I don’t think you can blame a Mayor or a Governor for bad cops in the ranks. No matter who is Mayor or Governor – that is going to happen sometimes. You’d no more blame them than you would the Secretary of Defense when a soldier kills a civilian…or rapes a fellow soldier it happens…

  3. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    Why would you not want to hold Jacob Frey responsible for not identifying and removing bad cops when he campaigned on the issue (primarying the Democratic incumbent) and pointed out multiple times that the Minneapolis City Charter gave the mayor exclusive control over the police department?

  4. Fred Woehrle Avatar
    Fred Woehrle

    They do need to make it easier to remove bad cops. That said, there are many states that are worse. I have read that five states — California, Hawaii, Massachusetts, New Jersey and Rhode Island — have no decertification process at all.

  5. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Bad apples? Or, bad barrels??

  6. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    “Smaller departments often lack the resources to do careful background checks.”

    This is easily solved. State-paid, uniform background checks. A cop in Deltaville should receive the same background check as one in Fairfax. Moreover, it should be done again every 10/5 years, depending on rank. As a defense contractor, one of the necessities for maintaining a security clearance was continuing background checks. Adverse information, an arrest, bankruptcy, etc., was considered an indicator of risk to government secrets. There is no reason to believe that these same adverse conditions will not also effect the performance of police officers. This is, of course, in addition to performance reviews.

    1. idiocracy Avatar
      idiocracy

      It always amazed me that an IT contractor for the FedGov got a more complete background check than a city/town/county cop. And, of course, the forms that the FedGov IT contractor fills out for the background check make you certify that “Under penalty of perjury, I affirm that the foregoing is true and correct to the best of my knowledge”.

      This is NOT the case for background investigation forms used by city/town/county police departments. Lie on those, and the worst that will happen is you don’t get to be a cop.

  7. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    One has to take the permitted actions. Look at Minneapolis’ Woke Mayor Jacob Frey, beat up the Democratic incumbent for failing to identify and remove bad cops, but failed to do so. If Frey had done is job, Chauvin and Thao would not have been on the Mpls. police force in late May. More important is George Floyd would most likely be alive today.

    But Frey receives full protection from the rest of the Woke politicians, weak-kneed Democrats and the filth of America, the MSM.

  8. idiocracy Avatar
    idiocracy

    It would probably shrink the labor pool for police officers if the criteria for decertification were broadened.

  9. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    If the GA allows the union movement and the coming local contracts to dictate terms for the review and removal process, all this will be for naught. That’s a lesson from the George Floyd incident that the Democrats simply ignore, and you’ve seen it elsewhere. The unions protect these bad actors and intimidate the politicians. To their credit, sometimes the protesters turn up with their bricks and firebombs outside the local union HQ.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      How often do police unions endorse the Democrat over the Republican? Dumb Democrats.

  10. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    The Federal background checks – at least the ones for being cleared to handle classified material actually relate more to who you associate with, do you travel overseas and why and do you have behaviors that would make you vulnerable to blackmail, etc.

    But for employment, they do check things like criminal records, etc.

    Cops who actually break the law that applies to everyone are different from what is considered a “bad cop” – which I do not think we actually have a common criteria. This guy Chauvin – before the video, even though he had complaints has got a fair amount of company. Some police consider complaints as a measure of effectiveness, i.e. if you have no complaints against you, are you really doing your job?

    Cops can and do push the envelope and that, in and of itself, is not necessarily grounds for dismissal although some of these new measures may tighten that up.

    I find it a little incongruous that another thread this morning is about turning criminals loose!

    We seem to have a system that is tough on crime – but not so tough on bad cops.

    People think it’s not so bad that we only have a “few” bad cops but bad cops who stay on the force – change the way other cops operate also. Sometimes the un-stated rule is: “don’t jam up your fellow cops – look the other way”. To me, that’s how Chauvin managed to stay on the force even with complaints lodged.

    I don’t think you can blame a Mayor or a Governor for bad cops in the ranks. No matter who is Mayor or Governor – that is going to happen sometimes. You’d no more blame them than you would the Secretary of Defense when a soldier kills a civilian…or rapes a fellow soldier it happens…

    1. idiocracy Avatar
      idiocracy

      Even if you aren’t handling classified material, you still have to have a public trust clearance, the background check for which is STILL more rigorous than is typical for town/city/county PDs.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        I don’t know. What else would they be looking at beyond a criminal record?

        1. idiocracy Avatar
          idiocracy

          A list I found:

          Misconduct or negligence in employment
          Criminal or dishonest conduct
          Material, intentional false statement, deception or fraud in examination or appointment
          Refusal to furnish testimony as required for the investigation
          Alcohol abuse of a nature and duration which suggests that the applicant or appointee would be prevented from performing the duties of the position in question, or would constitute a direct threat to the property or safety of others
          Illegal use of narcotics, drugs, or other controlled substances, without evidence of substantial rehabilitation
          Knowing and willful engagement in acts or activities designed to overthrow the US government by force
          Any statutory or regulatory bar that prevents the lawful employment of the person involved in the position in question

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            yes. Most employers have a “code of conduct” or “employee handbook”…

            but what I was asking is if you go to a company to do a “background check” – where would they look and for what?

            Like, a person I know – became a Navigator for the ACA and had to have a “background check” – then that same person in dealing with kids in a classroom also had to have a “background check” –

            different things?

            is a “background check” for police a generic one like other employment background checks or something different?

            I’m not sure exactly what one employer can share with another that would not be contestable by the employee – but something like an arrest for shoplifting is not the same as “employee conduct”.

            probably getting wrapped around the axle here…

        2. idiocracy Avatar
          idiocracy

          Here is link to the SF-85P “Questionnaire for Public Trust Positions”. It is 95 pages long.

          https://www.opm.gov/forms/pdf_fill/sf85p.pdf

        3. idiocracy Avatar
          idiocracy

          The list I posted is for public trust clearances. I also posted a link to the questionnaire used for public trust clearances. If you review that, it should give you a pretty good idea of what the FedGov is concerned about…and it goes above and beyond what regular private sector background checks do.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Right – I’m familiar with it for clearances, they’ll actually go to your co-workers, neighbors, relatives to ask questions about you but other than that and the police where else would they go for info about you?

            When I was involved with hiring – not sure I ever saw a background check on anyone… did see that they had gotten a clearance… had to know that before they could handle classified info!

  11. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    “You’d no more blame them than you would the Secretary of Defense when a soldier kills a civilian…or rapes a fellow soldier it happens…” Maybe not SecDef, but what about the officers and NCOs a bit closer to the problem? Sorry, but a basic tenet of leadership is responsibility and accountability. Politicians flee those concepts, of course.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      I think there must be accountability – yes – but blaming everyone higher up the food chain no matter what is not accountability when you have an individual go rogue.

      So what if they did not go rogue – and it’s a problem with how the organization is operating? And it’s been that way for awhile, i.e. it’s not due to some new policy that some particular “politician” put in place?

      So WHO is responsible for institutional failures? Who should be blamed? Who should be responsible for fixing?

      these are not so easy to figure out sometimes.

      If you have bad cops on every Mayors term for the last 5 mayors – what does that mean?

    2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      “This so-called ill treatment and torture in detention centers, stories of which were spread everywhere among the people, and later by the prisoners who were freed … were not, as some assumed, inflicted methodically, but were excesses committed by individual prison guards, their deputies, and men who laid violent hands on the detainees.”

      Rumsfeld?? Abu Ghraib??

      Could have been, but no. Hoess, on Auschwitz.

  12. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    Why would you not want to hold Jacob Frey responsible for not identifying and removing bad cops when he campaigned on the issue (primarying the Democratic incumbent) and pointed out multiple times that the Minneapolis City Charter gave the mayor exclusive control over the police department?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Because the reality is that NO Mayor has “exclusive” control over the police (even though they should). How do you “fix” institutional issues in the police without risking dismantling the leadership of it? And if you do that – do you risk destroying the police force as an effective force?

      This is sorta like saying that Police Unions are evil – so we need to get rid of them. Uh huh… let’s do that – then we fire the Chief and clean house?

      On what planet?

      Obviously, you’ve never experienced a politician making promises they could not keep… and then getting fired ? 😉

      1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
        TooManyTaxes

        Here’s what the Minneapolis City Charter says. Read the first sentence in sec. 7.3(a). Read it a couple of times. Also read the line about who has the authority to discipline or discharge police officers. Then construct an argument that Mayor Jacob Frey does not have full control over, and full responsibility for, the Minneapolis Police Department.

        § 7.3. – Police.
        (a)Police department. The Mayor has complete power over the establishment, maintenance, and command of the police department. The Mayor may make all rules and regulations and may promulgate and enforce general and special orders necessary to operating the police department. Except where the law vests an appointment in the department itself, the Mayor appoints and may discipline or discharge any employee in the department (subject to the Civil Service Commission’s rules, in the case of an employee in the classified service).

        (1)Police chief.

        (A)Appointment. The Mayor nominates and the City Council appoints a police chief under section 8.4(b).

        (B)Term. The chief’s term is three years.

        (C)Civil service. The chief serves in the unclassified service, but with the same employee benefits (except as to hiring and removal) as an officer in the classified service. If a chief is appointed from the classified service, then he or she is treated as taking a leave of absence while serving as chief, after which he or she is entitled to return to his or her permanent grade in the classified service. If no vacancy is available in that grade, then the least senior employee so classified returns to his or her grade before being so classified.

        (D)Public health. The chief must execute the City Council’s orders relating to the preservation of health.

        (2)Police officers. Each peace officer appointed in the police department must be licensed as required by law. Each such licensed officer may exercise any lawful power that a peace officer enjoys at common law or by general or special law, and may execute a warrant anywhere in the county.

        (b)Temporary police. The Mayor may, in case of riot or other emergency, appoint any necessary temporary police officer for up to one week. Each such officer must be a licensed peace officer.

        (c)Funding. The City Council must fund a police force of at least 0.0017 employees per resident, and provide for those employees’ compensation, for which purpose it may tax the taxable property in the City up to 0.3 percent of its value annually. This tax is in addition to any other tax, and not subject to the maximum set under section 9.3(a)(4).

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          TMT – don’t you think that is boiler-plate for most cities and Mayors?

          1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
            TooManyTaxes

            No, I don’t. I grew up right across the Mississippi River in St. Paul. Its city charter gives the mayor managerial power over all city departments but does not mention anything like: “[The Minneapolis Mayor has] complete power over the establishment, maintenance, and command of the police department. The Mayor may make all rules and regulations and may promulgate and enforce general and special orders necessary to operating the police department. Except where the law vests an appointment in the department itself, the Mayor appoints and may discipline or discharge any employee in the department (subject to the Civil Service Commission’s rules, in the case of an employee in the classified service).”

            Only the world of the Woke does complete authority mean no responsibility. It’s “systematic” and whatever the mayor does or does not do is irrelevant. Frey had the complete power to request the records of every police officer in the city and could have had all officers with complaints of violence, most especially against blacks, placed on a list for investigation. That investigation could have further identified Chauvin and Thao for their extreme and extended conduct. Frey could have ordered them fired, only subject to any due process rights under the civil service law. And keep in mind that, before one argues about the content of the civil service law, Minneapolis has not had a GOP mayor since 1961 or a city council member since 1997. Jacob Frey bears personal responsibility for the death of George Floyd. (Notice, I am not saying complete responsibility.)

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            So I’ll try again. Don’t you think that most Mayors have similar/equivalent authority over police department whether it’s NYC or LA or Podunk, Alabama?

            Just because a Mayor does not take action that you want – does not make them not accountable.

            They may well be making changes but in ways and on a timescale that others are not aware of – and don’t agree with but that’s not the same as there being no changes or no accountability.

            The Mayor also has to work with the city council who actually control the purse strings.

            but here is that major taking actions:

            https://www.startribune.com/minneapolis-mayor-proposes-keeping-vacant-100-police-jobs/572111892/

            TMT – are you a partisan critic? Are you a fair critic?

          3. Matt Hurt Avatar
            Matt Hurt

            To TMT’s point, wasn’t this done after the fact rather than proactively (as he promised in his campaign)? It’s kind of like shutting the barn door after the mule gets out.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            If you go read about the Mayor of Minneapolis in terms of what he was promising it’s not that simple.

            ” Mayor Jacob Frey of Minneapolis, a 38-year-old civil rights lawyer, swept into office in 2018 on promises to fix the broken relationship between the community and the police in the wake of two fatal police shootings. It would start, he said, with residents getting to know their local police officers personally.

            “I want people to know that their officer on Mondays, Tuesday and Fridays from 4 p.m. to 10 p.m. is Jenny,” he told voters the day after his election. “I want you to know Jenny. I want you to know her by name.”

            As far as I can tell, he was not asserting that there were “bad cops” on the force and that he would get them removed. The Mayors big concern was apparently bad relations between the police and citizenry as well as complaints that 911 responses were slow… it was not about “bad cops” per se.

            Derek Chauvin who killed Floyd was apparently an officer in good standing until he killed FLoyd – even though he had a string of complaints against him – as far as I can tell, there was no action by Police or the Mayor to get him removed for being a “bad cop” prior to the killing.

            He had 19 complaints and only 2 resulted in actions and one of them went like this:

            ” Though details of one remain unclear, a Minneapolis woman, Melissa Borton, told the Los Angeles Times she filed one of the complaints in August 2007 that ended with a formal letter of reprimand against Chauvin.

            Borton said Chauvin and another officer pulled her over as she was returning home from the grocery store with her infant. The officers approached her car, reached inside “without a word,” unlocked her door, pulled her out, and put her in the back of a police cruiser, she said.

            She told the newspaper that Chauvin and the other officer released her roughly 15 minutes later without an explanation.

            The reason for the traffic stop? Borton had been driving 10 miles over the speed limit. Records obtained by the Times said that Chauvin was later told that he “did not have to remove complainant from car”

            That’s the complaint that he received an actual reprimand for.

            TMT seems to be saying that the Mayor should have identified Chauvin as a “bad cop” based on his record and had him removed before he went “rogue”.

            As far as I can tell – there had been no effort by the police to label him as a “bad cop” or try to remove him so I’m not sure exactly what the Mayor actually could have done that he supposedly “failed” to do.

            We basically do not know how the police operate with respect to identifying “bad cops” much less how many like Chauvin continue to be cops in good standing regardless of the number and kind of complaints against them. And that’s not just in Minneapolis – it’s across the country. It’s a murky area that most know little about until some officer commits an abusive act or killing that is captured on camera.

            I’m not making excuses, just recognizing that we’ve had a series of police killings by officers who had not been identified prior as “bad cops” and had not had actions taken against them for being “bad cops” UNTIL they did kill a citizen and even then very, very few Cops are actually indicted and convicted in these killings.

            Exactly what “kind” of “police reform” are we really looking for beyond the simplistic blame game kind?

            I suspect TMT’s real complaint is that the Mayor of Minneapolis is a liberal politician who has made “promises” and all that …. he pretty much hates liberals! 😉

            Police Reform is and has been a conundrum across almost every major urban area in the country – where we’ve seen police abuse and killings from NYC to LA and cities in between.

          5. Matt Hurt Avatar
            Matt Hurt

            I see what you mean Larry, that he focused on getting the cops to live in the community as a means to address the needed reforms. However, isn’t part of the problem that he lacked the stones to propose something that would actually affect change?

            Let me give you an example from my field. When a school is considered failing in Virginia, they go under review by the VDOE. Historically, for the last 5 years or so, all of the review yield findings that teachers’ lesson plans are not aligned to state standards. The remedy is lesson planning training and a horrendous God awful lesson plan template that causes teachers to spend more time filling out the template than actually planning. If you then consider how little effect this strategy has on turning around failing schools, one wonders why this is done. Usually when a school turns around, it is in spite of this rather than because of it. Surely alignment is key, but more often the problem lies with expectations in the classroom and the principal’s office that are lower than the states. Aligned lesson plans can be an indicator of success, but just submitting aligned lesson plans don’t guarantee success. In fact, this strategy often serves more of a distraction to true improvement.

            Similarly, having police officers live in the neighborhoods they patrol can help build those relationships, but this strategy won’t guarantee that police officers will treat all citizens with respect and human compassion. There really has to be some accountability, and the accountability has to be tied to measurable things. While he didn’t campaign on this, an audit of the complaints would have been a wonderful place to start. However, he, like many other politicians, realize that to do any real reforms would require difficult conversations with the police union, and apparently, he wasn’t up for that.

            Real leadership requires courage. His strategy to me seemed to lack any need for courage.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Yep – I can’t disagree with what you say – except that Schools are not Police – the consequences are different but in terms of trying to reform -in-situ is a hard nut with lots of 2 steps forward and 1 step back and unintended consequences.

            But yes, what the Mayor was promising was BETTER police relations and better 911 response time – NOT to ferret out bad cops…. at least not his primary promise.

            Chauvin was never identified as a “bad cop” that should have been removed – his worst “abuse” that he got reprimanded for was not physical abuse – it was a procedural issue that did not warrant removal so I’m not sure what exactly the Major could have done in having him removed before he did what he did.

            It’s a kitchen sink criticism… i.e. he was the head of the city and police and bad cops are his fault.

            I just don’t buy it.

            On the schools… There are myriad reasons why a school “fails” but one of them is documenting the lesson plans so that if a teacher is replaced, the replacement teacher knows what has been covered, he mastered the material, who did not, etc…

            Used to be (maybe still is) that if a school did not take actions that corrected the low scores, the State would send in a “turn-around” principal who would “clean house” , i.e. significant changes in personnel and operations… etc… not fun for those who were at that school as some were forced to leave.

            In our local system – it’s pretty tough – either the school meets SOL benchmarks or changes are made – including the principal.. Saw 4 different ones and other staff changes in 5 years at one school. When they finally got a principal that achieved results -they promptly send him to another failing school! 😉

    2. djrippert Avatar
      djrippert

      Isn’t it funny how today’s liberals would tie themselves in knots if they heard about a private company where the executives ignored complaints of harassment, whether it be sexual, sexual orientation, racial, religious, etc but they won’t hold politicians or unions liable for rogue cops? I had the unfortunate experience of having several men (and it was always men) who worked in my department pull incredibly stupid stunts with fellow employees. There was no sweeping it under the rug. The investigators were called and, other than one case, the men were fired. Had I swept those incidents under the rug I would have been fired too. In fact, everybody in the company had to take anti-harassment training every year and re-pass a new test on that training every year.

      This is only hard in the minds of liberal government and union apologists.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Always thought it was odd that Conservatives types go ape-crap over teacher unions but mostly crickets on police unions…and downplay the bad cop thing – “oh, it’s only a few” 99 44/100% are “good” and we better say that so we don’t rile up their unions…

        1. idiocracy Avatar
          idiocracy

          I always thought it was odd that almost everytime a cop screws up and the police union comments, their comment is that the cop screwed up due to “poor training”.

          Yea, well, you can’t train a scumbag to be a saint, so there you go.

          “Officer Dirtbag did not receive adequate training that would have educated him to know that taking drugs from the police property room and selling them in the government housing projects is not acceptable behavior. The union opposes the firing of Officer Dirtbag because clearly the deficiency is with the inadequate training provided by the department”.

      2. idiocracy Avatar
        idiocracy

        You and everyone else in the company likely had to take ethics training every year, too.

  13. Fred Woehrle Avatar
    Fred Woehrle

    They do need to make it easier to remove bad cops. That said, there are many states that are worse. I have read that five states — California, Hawaii, Massachusetts, New Jersey and Rhode Island — have no decertification process at all.

  14. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    It’s a bit of a simplistic concept that is hard to quantify.

    For instance, up until now, a knee on a neck was not considered “bad cop” and even now is not so how is that defined such that we agree on what “bad cop” means in that kind of context?

    If George Floyd had not died and there was no videos – would that cop been identified as a “bad cop” from that one incident?

    In fact, that cop had a list of complaints against him but none of them sufficient for him to be identified as a “bad cop” much less dismissal and desertification (which apparently Minnesota does do).

    Some want to blame the Mayor – but again this cop remained on the force prior to this incident and as far as I can tell no action was brought against him prior to the fatal incident.

    The way we currently identify “bad cop” would allow a cop like him to stay on the force – until he did kill someone and it was videotaped.

  15. Nathan Avatar
    Nathan

    I would make a distinction between “bad cops” which to me indicates unethical conduct or something with malicious intent, and cops that are just ill suited for the job. Both should be removed. but I am more sympathetic to those who have never willfully done wrong, but cannot perform what is required for that job. I believe it’s possible to be a good person, and good perspective employee at some other profession, and at the same time someone who should not serve as a police officer.

    I also find that the public perception of police animosity to blacks results primarily from the intense publicity of incidents involving African Americans, and the opposite for those that do not. Here’s an example. Was this on the front page of your local newspaper? How many are even aware of it?

    https://www.ammoland.com/2020/08/ryan-whitaker-shot-by-police-for-having-a-gun-in-phoenix-az-video/#axzz6V5h3Lvqw

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Your first part, I totally agree with.

      The second part , not, because if you talk to black people about personal incidents – they have them… it’s not just news coverage. They compare stories among themselves… and there also is a long history of it to boot. Only white folks says all that bad treatment of blacks has gone away totally.

      1. Nathan Avatar
        Nathan

        I think you are correct. It would be untrue to insist that “all bad treatment of blacks has gone away.” The second part is not worded well, but I am no longer able to edit it. In retrospect, I should have limited the scope to shootings.

        With that in mind, did you watch the video? Can you honestly say that shooting incidents receive media attention purely on the basis of the facts, or does race play a very significant role?

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Oh I have no doubt that media pumps it up – if it bleeds it leads…

          but that don’t change the underlying realities that most black folks will tell you and the question is – are you willing to discount it because of what the media does with it?

          That would be to essentially deny it because you think the media is pumping it – while at the same time just ignoring or not recognizing that there is a real issue underneath it.

          You have to listen to black folks – and accept what they are saying no matter what the media is saying – in my view.

          The media from it’s inception is not what the reality is – but just because that’s true – does not make the issue itself false.

          In my view – if we want to go forward – we have to respect what black folks are saying… and not let what the media does – also convince us to disregard how blacks feel.

          If we don’t do that. If we reject what black folks are saying -where does that leave us?

  16. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    Bad cops! Don’t forget the bad teachers. One of the silver linings of COVID is not seeing the daily headlines of teachers doing bonehead things to themselves or to kids. It is tough to get rid of them and take their licensure away.

  17. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    yeah but bad teachers seldom get in trouble for putting their knees on the necks of students!

    Police Officers actually have a significant amount of power over citizens. They can actually take away a citizen’s freedom – on the spot and they can do it with physical or even deadly force.

    How they do that – is important.

    A “bad cop” is not someone whose own personal behavior – outside of their actual job – say, got into a fight with a neighbor or engaged in spousal abuse…etc.. but someone who, in the course of doing actual police work – abused their power and harmed citizens … that’s the kind of “bad cop” that is integral to the issue.

    We say, conventional wisdom, says that this kind of behavior is “rare” and only a very few cops engage in it.

    I don’t think we really know because there is so little transparency into it.

    We only see it when something really egregious happens and not even then unless it gets caught on camera.

    I’m not saying we have a lot of it but I am saying that because it is often not really visible that when it does happen and it is caught on citizens cameras – combined with the way that police have typically reacted when it does happen – there is a “where there is smoke there is a fire” problem.

    Blaming the media is wrong-headed when it starts out as a video on someone’s camera. What would we do – not allow the media to replay the video while at the same time it runs rampant on social media?

    One the act is caught on video – blaming “media” is a bit silly IMHO.

    It’s like, ” we would not have this problem if the media didn’t show it”.

  18. Matt Hurt Avatar
    Matt Hurt

    I still think we are missing a big point. As long as we have silly laws on the books such as drug possession, selling loose cigarettes, and other piddly crimes that don’t harm our society generally, we will continue to offer more opportunities for law enforcement to have unnecessary tense interactions with citizens than there should be. The more tense interactions, the more opportunities for the situation to go sideways. Why don’t we get rid of those specific stupid laws, as well as others which are just as piddly?

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