Land Use and the International Financial Crisis

Wendell Cox, a visiting fellow with the Heritage Institute, has published a new report, “How Land Use Restrictions Exacerbated the International Finance Crisis” that makes an important contribution to our understanding of the residential real estate bubble and the ensuing financial collapse that has roiled the global economy. Unfortunately, he undercuts a potentially valuable study by characterizing excessive regulation as “smart growth,” badly misconstruing the meaning of the phrase.

First, let’s talk about what Cox gets right. One of the elements missing in the hand wringing over the ongoing mortgage melt-down, he writes, is the roll of excessive land use regulation. A variety of regulations — minimum lot sizes, confiscatory impact fees, urban growth boundaries and building moratoria — have created a scarcity of developable land in many metropolitan areas. That scarcity, he maintains, has raised the price of housing.

Tight housing supplies interacting with liberal mortgage loan policies created the mortgage meltdown. Explains Cox: “When more liberal loan policies were implemented, metropolitan areas that had adopted these more restrictive policies lacked the resilient land markets that would have allowed the greater demand to be accommodated without inordinate increases in house prices.” Out-of-control lending policies, he emphasizes, were the proximate cause of the fiasco. But land use controls leveraged the damage several-fold.

Between 2000 and 2007, there was tremendous disparity between metropolitan regions at which housing prices increased. In the ten markets that experienced the greatest increase in housing prices over normal affordability ratios, Cox says, house prices increased an average of $275,000 compared to incomes. Among the second 10 markets, prices rose $135,000 more. In markets that remained the most affordable, house prices increased only $5,000 more.

While the gross value of U.S. housing stock increased $5.3 billion relative to household incomes, over that period, $4.4 billion occurred in the 20 markets with the fastest escalating prices. Writes Cox: “It is estimated that in 10 metropolitan markets with the most steeply rising prices, mortgage exposures rose by approximately $3.1 trillion compared to the exposure that would have existed had the previous price to income ratios been maintained. These 10 markets have ‘rung up’ 64 percent of the mortgage exposure overhang, yet account for only 16 percent of the nation’s owner occupied housing stock.”

What the 20 most unaffordable housing markets — the markets with the greatest “mortgage overhang” — have in common, says Cox, is excessive land use regulation. (In Virginia, Cox classifies the Washington, D.C., and Hampton Roads metro areas as having “strong” land use regulation, and Richmond as not.)

Unfortunately, Cox devises a hard-to-decipher measure for ranking unaffordability. He calls it the “aggregate value of housing stock in 2007: change from 2000 price/income ratio.” I sorta, kinda understand it but not really, and I can’t find an explanation of it. But I’ll accept it for purposes of argument. (For what it’s worth, the Washington region ranks 5th out of the 50 largest metro areas in this ranking, Hampton Roads ranks 14th, and Richmond ranks 20th.)

What Cox hasn’t done, is correlate growth controls and housing affordability with the current mortgage foreclosure rates. If he had, I’d bet he’d get a pretty good match up.

Now, let’s discuss how Cox is terribly confused. He equates housing regulation with “smart growth.” Some of the development restrictions he cites — urban growth boundaries, for instance — are rightly associated with smart growth. But large lot sizes are the antithesis of almost anybody’s definition of smart growth. Outside of Arlington and Alexandria, no municipality in Northern Virginia has embraced “smart growth,” which advocates compact development, mixed uses and alternatives to automobile transportation. Instead, Northern Virginia municipalities have employed their formidable arsenal of powers to promote scattered, disconnected, low-density development — a policy mix criticized by Smarth Growthers that has created a shortage of affordable and accessible housing.

“Accessibility” is the key here. Within metro areas, widespread anecdotal evidence suggests, housing prices have collapsed the fastest in areas that are the least accessible to jobs — characterized by the longest commutes and suffering the greatest impact from rising gasoline prices.

Bottom line: Cox’s argument withstands scrutiny if the villain in the mortgage mess is excessive government control over land use. But such a conclusion is a very blunt instrument: It fails to distinguish between different types of land-use regimes, and it ignores the critical variable of accessibility in accounting for the mortgage mess.

(Hat tip to Tim Wise.)


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Comments

  1. James Atticus Bowden Avatar
    James Atticus Bowden

    One exception and one comment.

    In Hampton Roads/Tidewater there is affordable housing and land in close proximity to jobs – but people choose to live further away because of crime and lousy schools.

    Doubling the price of gas, increasing all energy costs (and energy dependent costs) and adding to inflation with bio-fuel mandates is a budget buster for millions of Americans. That is a large part of the mortgage meltdown. I’d like to see some research on that cause and effect.

  2. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Jim Bacon:

    Good summary!

    You are, however, not nearly hard enough on Cox. He is an ideologue who blames everything on “too much control.” He has never understood “smart growth” but is sure it is the cause of everything from Alzheimer’s to zits.

    Your post “Human Settlement Patterns: The Fringes Unravel” of 27 June – and the subsequent publishing by BusinessWeek of the Zillow House Value Index findings on 12 July – document just what you say vis-a-vis house values:

    Remote is bad, close-in and especially where Balanced is encouraged are good. (Yes, James Atticus, safety and good schools are part of Balance.)

    In a sense Cox is right, it IS land use controls that are a problem but the opposite of what he would have one believe.

    The problem is jurisdictions within R=20 not encouraging and some not permitting the evolution of Balanced components of human settlement pattern.

    I am not sure what you mean by:

    “What Cox hasn’t done, is correlate growth controls and housing affordability with the current mortgage foreclosure rates. If he had, I’d bet he’d get a pretty good match up.”

    If you mean the places with the cheapest house have the most foreclosures your are right.

    By “cheapest” I mean the lowest prices and the most dysfunctional locations. The market knows a bad location when it sees one.

    What we found about the mortgage crisis (See “Two Spheres of Fraud,” 7 April 2008) of was those jurisdictions – and those parts of jurisdictions – with lax controls (Prince William, Culpeper, Southern Fauquier and parts of Eastern Loudoun) had by far the highest foreclosure rates. By “lax” I mean the jurisdictions allowed scattered, orphan subdivisions and other low amenity dwellings. This is just the sort of housing that Cox claims are needed – so people have the “freedom” to buy a cheap house in an inaccessible location.

    EMR

  3. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    One other point:

    Anyone who tries to draw sweeping conclusions from data based on “Value (average sales price) estimated by regional average to median price ration” is just wasting paper to support a pre-concieved notion.

    Data at the organic component scale in any of these “regions” would vary widely.

    EMR

  4. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I don’t think that the facts would support the idea that suburban sprawl is a cause of the mortgage meltdown any more than massive urbanization is. Yes, the outer suburbs and exurbs were over-built.

    But so too were many urbanizing areas. Condos were built on the very same type of speculation. Apartments were converted to condos. And condos were planned and built everywhere. Many didn’t sell. Many are under foreclosure. Many have been reconverted to rental apartments.

    The bigger problem is that the financial services sector of the US economy has grown way too big since the late 1980s and early 1990s. We buy and sell the same basic piece of paper over and over again. That has nothing to do with the density of land use.

    Moreover, ask the typical resident of NoVA whether developers and builders need more or less regulation. We all know the answer to that question. We already have too much development for the infrastructure. Reducing land use controls would mean even more building on smaller lots without adding public facilities.

    No sane person would support that.

    TMT

  5. charlie Avatar

    great post. thank you.

    one quibble. you write:

    “Accessibility” is the key here. Within metro areas, widespread anecdotal evidence suggests, housing prices have collapsed the fastest in areas that are the least accessible to jobs — characterized by the longest commutes and suffering the greatest impact from rising gasoline prices.

    I agree with your evidence, but I’m not sure you can blame gas prices. Places with the longest commutes also happen to be the places where people who are economically on the edge anyway buy houses. IT’s where cheap family housing in. Those folks are living tight, and any downturn hurts them the most. Yes, the gas prices hurt them but for people with a 30 miles commute that is an extra $120 a month in gas for a family of two.

  6. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I think TMT has it right.

    When you loosen up loan standards – the result is speculation on all kinds of homes in all places.

    No amount of loosening zoning regulations is going to make a 3-bedroom home on a 1/4 acre less expensive in the core of NoVa because quite simply it is the scarcity of that 1/4 acre lot that drives the price -not zoning rules about what can or cannot be built on a 1/4 acre.

    If someone wants a less expensive home on a 1/4 acre, they drive to where there is still ample land available.

    so I think the whole concept is just shy of being fully bogus.

    Let’s do a correlation between foreclosures and impact fees/proffers.

    or ..let’s do a correlation between foreclosures and SFH on 1/4 acre or bigger lots…

    or… let’s do a correlation of foreclosures and condos…..

  7. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Larry and TMT, Loan standards relaxed across the entire country. But real estate prices didn’t increase uniformly across all MSAs. As is amply documented in the study, real estate prices escalated far more rapidly in certain MSAs than others. Speculation ran out of control in some MSAs and not in others. Foreclosures are rampant in some MSAs and not in others.

    How do you explain the discrepancy, if not for the presence of growth controls?

  8. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    He isn’t the only one who maintains that excessive controls lead to expensive housing. Several other economists have published studies that show pretty conclusively that not only to excessive controls lead to more expensive housing, but by how much.

    Such controls are little more than subsidies for existing landowners.

    What JAB refers to is that not all the price is in the land, because we do not have adequate inclusion of property rights. The price of the “land” is a lot lower when it does not include decent schools or crime protection, but that does not mean the land is more “affordable” because you are not buying the same things.

    RH

  9. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Well, let’s take my backyard, Fairfax County. Realistically, a developer or builder can pretty much construct just about anything. The county has been approving most, but not all, applications to add density around the county. Pulte received permission to build most of what it wanted at MetroWest — tear down single family homes and build townhouses and condos.

    Macerich obtain approval for a good half of its long term plan for Tysons I even before Metrorail has been finally approved, much less built.

    Smaller builders are gaining approval for teardowns, some of which put more units in than were torn down. And all new houses are massively larger than what was there before.

    Proffers in Fairfax County are a joke.

    The only real growth controls in Fairfax County are the price of land and construction. Yet the price run-up was huge. And we’ve seen quite a bit of speculation, especially in the condo market, but also with SFHs.

    TMT

  10. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Land Use Restrictions”

    What Land Use Restrictions?

    Seems to me any developer that wanted to build something got it approved and built it.

    And now, to add insult to injury, my locality is going back and changing the Comprehensive Plan to accommodate the developers once again! Developers know they can no longer sell a 4500 sq. ft. home and make money on it…..plus no one can get a loan for it.

    So, the BOS is changing the plan to allow condos and TH’s in neighborhoods that are mostly made up of Mcmansion’s.

    Guess where those folks property values are headed….that’s right, to the dollar menu!

  11. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: “As is amply documented in the study, real estate prices escalated far more rapidly in certain MSAs than others. Speculation ran out of control in some MSAs and not in others. Foreclosures are rampant in some MSAs and not in others.

    How do you explain the discrepancy, if not for the presence of growth controls?”

    well.. I might be convinced if it could be shown – a correlation between prices and/or foreclosures and growth controls…

    I agree that speculation progressed at different levels in different places but why would we presume that it was due to (new?) growth controls rather than normal supply/demand market forces?

    How about a chart that shows that the price of housing is directly related to the level of growth controls?

    also… in an urban area like NoVa, you cannot create more 1/4 acre lots by “loosening” restrictions – right?

    So… then.. what drives up the price of 1/4 acre lots in NoVa if there are no growth restrictions that are causing the increase?

  12. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “How about a chart that shows that the price of housing is directly related to the level of growth controls?”

    How are you going to quantify growth controls?

    Any number you come up with is arbitrary at best because each locality is different.

    Face it folks, we need regulation in some form or another.

    Some people are stupid and some people are greedy…..each group needs to be protected from the other in order to avoid catastrophes like the one we are in now.

  13. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “How about a chart that shows that the price of housing is directly related to the level of growth controls?”

    How are you going to quantify growth controls? “

    All I can tell you is go look up the papers. Economists can and do quantify the levels of growth controls. And they can deconfabulate differences in locality as well.

    This has been done a number of times, by unaffiliated authors, using different methodologies, with essentially the same results.

    We need some regulation, and we need to understand what it costs us. Excess regulation is great for existing property owners – who are not exempt from being stupid and greedy.

    Just ask yourself what happens when the “affordable housing” advocates get involved. Usually it goes something like this: a builder has rights for four homes, but we’ll let you build six if one of them is “affordable”.

    What land use restrictions? You don’t think that restrictions as far away as Fauquier and western Loudoun don’t affect what gets built in Fairfax?

    RH

  14. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    …then shouldn’t there be a list of the 10 most adversely affected areas due to growth controls?

    Now, I’m not talking about where housing is the most expensive but rather where it is shown to be more expensive because of specific growth controls that are over and above normal ones….

    all we have right now is claims…

    without real data…

    what we need is a list of the places with those specific growth controls that are causing the problem .. along with the evidence that those controls have actually caused higher prices.

    so .. I’m asking for more than ruminations from those who presume to know… I want those guys to show some real proof…

    anyone can blather. some professional blatherers claim credentials but none cut any ice with me until they lay down some convincing data…

    so… name the top 5 or 10 places where it can be demonstrated that growth controls and not market forces have affected the prices.
    Oh… and also.. by how much.

    we should be able to see a clear pattern between the restriction levels – and a corresponding impact on increased prices.

    otherwise… I throw the blather flag…

  15. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    A few more notes:

    Jim Bacon asked “How do you explain the discrepancy, if not for the presence of growth controls?”

    I ask: Whoever put together a list that has Las Vegas with “strong” controls and Charlotte with “not strong” controls is smoking a controled substance.

    Having actually planned projects and gotten approvals for development in many of these MSAs I would challenge most of these attributions.

    TMT and others seem to have a different definion of “strong” even in places like Fairfax County. More on that later.

    The most important point that in any of the MSAs from 5 on (Washington, DC-VA-MD-WV) there is VAST variation between jurisdictions WITHIN the MSA.

    In most cases the variation relates to the Radius Band and the progress toward a Tipping Point as outlined in “Burned Out,” 10 July 2006.

    Upon careful review this “analysis” is pure horse feathers.

    EMR

  16. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    TooManyTaxes said:

    “I don’t think that the facts would support the idea that suburban “sprawl” …

    By which you mean what?

    ____________________

    “…is a cause of the mortgage meltdown any more than “massive urbanization…”

    By which you mean what?

    ___________________

    “Yes, the outer suburbs and exurbs were “over-built” …

    By which you mean what?

    __________________________

    “But so too were many “urbanizing areas”.

    By which you mean what?

    ______________________

    “Condos were built on the very same type of speculation.”

    True.

    “Apartments were converted to condos.”

    True.

    “And condos were planned and built “everywhere.”

    “Everywhere?”

    The issue is not building type, the issue is location and is there a Balance of uses in the projects that yield functional components of human settlement.

    “Many didn’t sell. Many are under foreclosure. Many have been reconverted to rental apartments.”

    Do you have good data on the number of condo foreclosures vs Single Household Detached units by jurisdiction. I have not seen that data. I will take it by municipal jurisdiction but would rather have it by census block or better yet by organic component of settlement pattern.

    “The bigger problem is that the financial services sector of the US economy has grown way too big since the late 1980s and early 1990s.”

    Now you are talking! I am not sure the issue is “big” so much as it is “wildly unrelated to reality.”

    “We buy and sell the same basic piece of paper over and over again.”

    Right on and until there is a way to take the speculation out of shelter these problems will persist.

    “That has nothing to do with the density of land use.”

    Not “density” per se but it has everything to do with creating functional and sustainale human settlement patterns.

    “Moreover, ask the typical resident of NoVA whether developers and builders need more or less regulation. We all know the answer to that question.”

    Perhaps we all know the answer because we all know the level of understanding the typical resident of the northern part of Virginia has about functional settlement patterns.

    “We already have too much development for the infrastructure.”

    Not “too much” but rather the wrong kind in the wrong place. You may recall our discussing the issue of Balance?

    “Reducing land use controls would mean even more building on smaller lots without adding public facilities.”

    Perhaps but not if location-variable costs were fairly allocated.

    EMR

  17. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    All we have is claims without data.

    If Larry is interested, he can go look up any number of published papers on this topic and read them, complete with data.

    Or, he can continue to hold his position from a point of ignorance. All I can tell you is that I read a number of them, and I thought the story they told was clear, compelling, and told without a dog in the fight. It also corresponds with my personal observations and experience.

    There is a clear and well documented pattern between restriction levels and higher prices, whether Larry chooses to believe it or not. There are also other patterns, like demand and underlying value, but they are independent of and additional to the topic at hand, which is that increased regulation results in increased price.

    I accept that as a given. If Larry continues to live in never never land, he can do so.

    RH

  18. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Case in point. I recently had a conservation with a woman who is heavily involved in promoting affordable housing. Her commission manage to raise enough money to obtain a parcel of land, and came up with a plan for a small mixed use development of the property, including space for shops, affordable apartments, and individual dwellings, six units in all.

    As such, she had first hand experience with “the process” from the viewpoint of a “developer”. As she described it the whole thing bogged down over a protracted six month public argument over which trash trees would be eliminated and what they would be replaced with. (Can’t use non-native species.)

    All this occurred because the tree removal was included as part of the development plan.

    A neighboring parcel was partially involved in this, but only indirectly, and it was to be developed along a similar aspect, but by a commercial developer.

    Having watched what happened, that owner simply removed his trees. before making any application for development. That was entirely legal, as it turned out.

    My friend complained bitterly, that the delays and “public participation” cost her affordable housing commission valuable money that could have been used better.

    This is like charging to accept tires at the dump, and then wondering why you have to pick them up along the road.

    I’m sure the tree advocates in her case meant well, but they were really dealing with a situation that should have been cleaned up years ago: the whole argument was silly and pointless.

    And expensive.

    RH

  19. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "You don't think that restrictions as far away as Fauquier and western Loudoun don't affect what gets built in Fairfax?"

    Absolutely. Restrictions affect what gets built in Fairfax…..and Frederick County, Warren County, and Counties in WV, and so on.

    That said, I'll stick by my stupid vs. greedy statement.

    People (developers, regulators, & buyers) were/are convinced that a 4500 sq. ft. house that is a carbon copy of the one next door and costs someone 50% of their income somehow makes a community better.

    Why? Greedy/Stupid people jumped on a train that was bound to run off the cliff.

    It's was/is a fools game because there were too many regulations about what could/couldn't be built and not enough regulations on how you were going to pay for what was built both publicly and personally.

    The real question then becomes, who was greedy and who was stupid, the builders, the regulators or the buyers? Your guess is as good as mine.

    Regulations are put in place to protect everyone. This includes lending, zoning, etc. When there are no regulations, particularly on the financing end, greed takes over and everyone gets the shaft.

  20. Groveton Avatar

    This analysis probably gets to some of the story – but not all of the story. It seems reasonable to believe that strong “smart growth” regulation reduces the allowable density of development and makes each unit more expensive. Why wouldn’t this be true? All other factors being equal, restricting supply raises prices. The problem is that all other things are not equal.

    Every MSA has unique circumstances. Nevada has no state income tax. This attracts people and raises demand. SanFrancisco and San Jose are bounded by water. This makes expansion expensive and difficult. The city of Houston (not the MSA, the city) is over 600 sq mi. It is 1.5 times bigger than Fairfax County. One government doing the planning makes for better plans.

    More affluent people have “money to spare”. They often spend that money on their homes. They do things like putting in pools, custom woodwork, etc. The MSAs with the highest “overhangs” seem to be the places with the most disposable income too.

    EMR makes a good point – who zones the Washington MSA? Is Arlington zoning the same way as Prince George’s County, MD? Does Washington, DC have the same zoning laws as Loudoun County? Does eastern Loudoun County have the same zoning laws as western Loudoun County? Of course not.

    The factors used to define smart growth zoning seem to be absent from NoVA. Urban growth boundaries? Maybe. Loudoun basically makes Rt 15 an urban growth boundary. Prince William County has the “rural cresent”. So, I guess these may have evolved in NoVA. Huge areas recently declared off-limits to development? In NOVA? Building moratoria? Don’t make me laugh. Expensive impact fees? Not in NoVA’s most populous county – that’s for sure. Excessively large minimum lot sizes? This hould affect the population density of the localities. Washington, DC – 9,015 per sq mi. Richmond – 3,211 per sq mi. Fairfax County – 2,636 per sq mi., Henrico County – 1,204 per sq mi. I just don’t see the large lot size factor reflected in the actual data.

    This seems to be an analysis trying to prove a point. That’s too bad because I am sure that zoning laws affect supply of housing which affects the price of housing. I think this analysis would have been more more effective if it took specific localities in an MSA and compared them. Loudoun County is very much a smart growth county. Prince George’s County, MD is not. How do they compare in the foreclosure department?

  21. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Nonsense.

    If the regulations actually protected EVERYONE, then I wouldn’t have a problem. Regulations are put in place by special interests, for special interests.

    None of that has anything to do with stupidity or good taste.

    I think we are a long way from understanding what the real mix of costs and benefits are. We don’t yet understand who is greedy and who is stupid.

    In order to find out we first have to stop posturing and blaming. There are ways to find out – we first have to agree to use them.

    RH

  22. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Restrictions cut both ways. If you restrict too much land to agriculture, then you lower the value. (you also lower the cost of product produced, and probably the profit from doing so).

    At the end of the day, either a farm makes a profit, or else it is some kind of charity/subsidy.

    Who is being subsidized?

    Take the case of a farmer who rents the land he works. What is the incentive for the landowner? Probably he cannot rent the land for enough to cover the mortgage. By holding the land open for farming he is either speculating on future use or operating a charity for the farmer.

    Even if he owns the land outright, he would probably be better off to sell it and make some other investment. But, if the land is restricted only to agriculture, who would buy it?

    If the farmer himself owns the land outright, then he can make a lifestyle decision and continue as long as he has an operating profit. He can choose to ignore the value of the land in which case he is making a self-charity out of his lifestyle.

    The real issue here is that people BELIEVE development is bad for them. By over-providing farmland they guarantee themselves cheap food, and higher home prices.

    What happens when conditions change – when High fuel prices and fertilizer costs mean he can no longer operate at even an operating profit? Who wants the land then?

    Only someone who can afford an estate to sit on – over-providing farmland through excessive conservation is a charity for the very wealthy.

    RH

  23. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Another case study. I know a fellow who bought a lot zoned for three homes and three guest houses, on Martha’s Vineyard. He was later downzoned from three houses to one, and the ability to build a guest house now had a sunset clause – build now or lose the opportunity.

    At considerable sacrifice he overextended himself to build the guest house before the rules changed again. The guest house was severely limited in size, so it has limited value.

    But the overall lot was still perked for sixteen bedrooms (remember the three original homes, with guest houses?). He could have built two four-bedroom homes, except for the size restriction on the guest house.

    The new plan was to add bedrooms to the main house, but guess what? The rules changed again and now his setbacks went from 15 feet to 50 feet. That would not have mattered except his lot was L shaped and increasing the setbacks meant he had basically nothing left to work with.

    And that is the sort of thing that leads to large charity drives to provide affordable housing.

    Those charity drives are attended by wealthy people who were able to obtain their estate at a discount from some bankrupt farmer – who now has a menial job and needs affordable housing.

    Jim Belushi put on a great show in favor of affordable housing, and ironically, it was given in the agricultural hall.

    But now there is a new furor. A developer with affordable housing requirements in his plan wants to buy his way out of the restrictions with a $1.8 million dollar contribution to the affordable housing fund instead of providing three actual units.

    What does that tell you about the profits involved?

    It is a real quandary for the affordable housing commission, because they can get a lot more than three units for that kind of money – someplace else. Someplace nowhere near as desirable, and probably in an effective new ghetto.

    Everyone is in favor of affordable housing, just not next door.

    So much for balance.

    Just like NOVA, the island has a real limit on the land available, very real limits on what they can do because of environmental conditions (which are also real business assets there), and they have six jurisdictions with differing needs and budgets.

    But being much smaller, the conflicts are much more apparent. Groveton would probably note the truly enormous disparity in wealth that characterizes this place as well.

    I don’t see the overall situation in NOVA as being any different, just a little more diffuse. In the end, you face the same kind of charity situations, and indeed Fairfax is already offering housing assistance to families with incomes in the high five figures.

    My friend who used to have room for three homes would have provided them at no public expense, except we are stuck with this perverse idea that his development would have been a windfall for him and cost all of us money – somehow.

    Needless to say, no one offered him reverse proffers as restrictions on his property rights increased – in favor of others.

    RH

  24. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Under current Zoning the number of houses that could be constructed on Martha’s Vineyard would be allowed to increase by 50% before “build out”. There is a “Vineyard Plan” commission which is charged with studying the island’s future. This is being advertised to solicit citizen input, but unless I miss my read it is a thinly veiled attempt to reduce density still more.

    Remember these are structures more than homes, since 80% of them are occupied only during the season, but they pay full taxes just the same.

    The arguments and even the phases used in arguing for less density could be taken word for word from TMT, and yet the actual densities involved could hardly be more different.

    Presumably someone owns and paid for all that land which is likely to be down zoned, but this time around you are talking about really expensive land – partly as a result of previous downzonings and restrictions.

    My guess is that this is like offshore drilling – at some price conservation doesn’t look quite so valuable. With enough price incentive Martha’s Vineyard could become like Miami or Myrtle Beach, but by then, all the old original landowners who once had rights will have been squeezed out.

    In which case TMT will be right: development favors a few at the expense of many.

    All on account of building restrictions, supposedly o favor current residents.

    RH

    RH

  25. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    enough with the anecdotal blather!

    let’s see the top 10 places where restrictions have caused harm – in rank order… with one column showing a point scale of severity of restriction from 1 to 10 and in the second column the % increase in price it caused.

  26. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    If we actually had such a rank order list – planners, property-rights folks, all of us would have a clear idea of what level of restrictions had one impact – and then we COULD have a rational discussion as to how much of restrictions to have or not have.

    If we had such a chart – the property rights folks could then point clearly to the “cost” of smart group also…

    but we don’t.. and the reason why we don’t is because the concept is basically pure unadulterated horse-feathers…

  27. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Larry:

    Right on!

    Stop the anecdotal blather!!!

    Groveton:

    Good post!

    One point of clarification:

    You said:

    “It seems reasonable to believe that strong “smart growth” regulation reduces the allowable density of development and makes each unit more expensive.”

    Not so. Any growth management system that is worthy of being called “smart” much less “smarter” (our favored term) supports Balance, functional intensites and Affordable and Accessible Housing.

    Exclusionary land use controls drive up housing prices but that is NOT “smart” in any sense of the word.

    Remove Agency controls and Enterprises / Institutions step in. Witness Houston:

    The places with the highest values have the most controls at the Beta Neighborhood and Beta Village scale.

    The “smartest” developement in the Houston New Urban Region of Community Scale is The Woodlands. Until recently when George Mitchel’s ideal (barrowed directly from Jim Rouse) lost contorl The Woodlands had high value AND Affordable and Accessible. Like Reston in the early days it lacked Jobs. Like Reston now, there are Jobs but no Balance.

    This is another example of why Cox’s work should be treated like someone shouting “FIRE” in a crowed theater.

    Larry is right, bring on the data, create a citizen base of understanding and stop this blather.

    EMR

  28. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    This dialog has been helpful. While I still maintain that Mr. Cox was pursuing a worthwhile idea — examining the impact of land use controls upon property prices, “mortgage overhang” and the mortgage banking crisis — his conclusions don’t stand up very well. My gut tells me that he’s right. He just hasn’t made the case.

    As I mentioned in my original post, and as commenters have expanded upon, there are significant flaws/limitations to Cox’ arguments. Among the problems:

    (1) How valid is the methodology for characterizing some regions as having “excessive” land use regulations, and others as “not excessive”?

    (2) The methodology does not distinguish between varying land use policies pursued by different municipalities within a region, and the complex interplay on human settlement patterns that results.

    (3) Cox confuses the meaning of “smart growth” and does not differentiate between land use regimes that encourage compact development at higher densities, and regimes that encourage scattered, disconnected, low-density development. Both regimes arguably represent “excessive” land use regulation — especially if they ignore the critical issue of “balance — but they have very different effects.

    (4) Cox does not take into account that housing may be “affordable” but not “accessible” — as in, house prices are lower, but commuting costs are higher. Simply put: When ascertaining “affordability,” housing prices cannot be viewed in isolation. They are joined at the hip with commuting costs — which Cox overlooks.

    (5) Cox did not do the obvious thing and correlate regions with excessive regulation and current rates of mortgage foreclosures. Intuitively, one would expect that regions that had the greatest “mortgage overhang” also have the highest foreclosure rates. But he hasn’t demonstrated the point.

  29. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    enough with the anecdotal blather!

    Larry, one question.

    How many anecdotes does it take to make one real data set? For those described in the anecdotes, the situation is very real.

    RH

  30. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    We don’t have such a chart primarily because people like Larry dismiss “property rights” as if they were the province of a handful of nut cases, instead of recognizing them as the true foundation of environmental action combined with fair and impartial government.

    RH

  31. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    How does a growth management system support affordable housing? Through charities, as on Martha’s Vineyard? Through subsidies as in Fairfax? Who pays the difference between the price that is affordable and what it actually costs?

    In fact, how does a growth management system promote affordable housing without swamping itself in growth demanding such housing?

    AQ growth management system that supports affordable housing is one of EMR’s finest oxymorons.

    RH

  32. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    define your terms and methodologies
    then present your evidence

    no amount of anecdotal will ever be anything more – than “more” anecdotal.

    My “gut” tells me that there MAY be SOME correlation but my “gut” and others “gut” is little more than anecdotal at best.

    I would ESPECIALLY like to see how “restrictive” policies affect the housing prices in places like Martinsville and Gretna, etc….

    and please… don’t restrict yourselves…

    Feel free to compare Loudoun to Chesterfield to Suffolk…

    stack em and rack em… in the rank order….

    Does Chesterfield “win” the title as the most restrictive locality that results in the greatest increase of home prices as a direct result?

    … or is it Suffolk?

    .. no? maybe Loudoun?

    Let’s see.. is Loudoun’s restrictions twice as much as Suffolk… ?? or are they only half again as much…??

    or are they actually LESS restrictive?

    questions. questions.

    how about some answers BEFORE you decide what the facts are?

    🙂

  33. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The answers are out on the web, Larry, as far as the correlation between restrictions and prices go, it is a done deal.

    All you have to do is look. And be willing to adjust the beliefs you have already canned.

    The anecdotes just fill in the human side. And, I think you are wrong: when you have enough anecdotes, it becomes evidence.

    RH

  34. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Let’s back up and start …real easy.

    tell me whether Loudoun has more restrictive growth policies than Chesterfield.

    Now show me the median home price of each – and then show how much of the difference is due to restrictive growth policies.

    as to what is “out there” – here it is:

    http://www.no_where_in_heck_is_this_data.com

  35. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Property rights. Why do some want to provide greater protection for property rights in real property than for personal property?

    If A develops his land in a manner that causes B, C & D's taxes to increase to pay for roads, schools or what have you necessary to serve A's development, which requires B, C & D to part with personal property (money), hasn't A's conduct diminished his neighbors' property rights?

    Or, the Tysons landowners want mega density for their parcels. To obtain that result, they push for the construction of Dulles Rail, with the bulk of the costs going to drivers on the Dulles Toll Road. Haven't the Tysons landowners diminished the personal property rights of the DTR drivers?

    TMT

  36. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    see TMT… there are “property rights” and there are “PROPERTY RIGHTS”.

    If you merely are the owner of a plot of land with a home you live in that is different than if you own a piece of land that you intend to convert to cash.

    and because you originally bought your home and others paid for your roads and schools, then you made a deal with the devil in essence, because from that point on – you must pay for all other infrastructure expenses for those that follow you.

    I’m sure Ray can explain this better.

    ;-]

  37. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    TooManyTaxes said:

    Property rights. Why do some want to provide greater protection for property rights in real property (than for property rights in) personal property?

    Very good question TMT.

    Perhaps the reason is that real property was of fundamental importance in an 18th Century agrarian society.

    It is of less central imporatnce in a 21st centruy society. Non-real property rights are more important today and those harping on real property rights are living in the past.

    Many still believed they could get a free lunche back then.

    By “Free Lunche” we mean that the externalities could be passed off on someone else.

    Externalities like location-variable expenses.

    In an urban society that is not possible.

    In urban enclaves it has been illegal since before Roman Planned New Communities were established. one could be beheaded for externalities in 16th century English urban enclaves.

    EMR

  38. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    this is really a substantial issue worthy of further examination but we need to be working off of real numbers not anecdotal.

    First, we would need to define exactly what are “restrictions” on private property.

    That could involve quite a panoply but as a start, I would be satisfied if the proponents of this went ahead and picked one or two or 1/2 dozen really good specific examples and they could make a convincing case on.

    For instance, in one area, you might have a “before” and “after” situation where one could compare historical data before restrictions with prices after restrictions.

    Another path would be to compare two jurisdictions with comparable median prices and then one of them instituted more restrictive policies …

    there are probably dozens of ways of going at this and it could actually include proffers and impact fees… also…

    but there is no free lunch here.

    You have to make a convincing case which, IMHO, is much more than what is currently offered.

    If we actually had some valid correlations between the different types of restrictions and the effects of them – we might actually have a “tool” for planning purposes.

    For instance, under debate right now in some places is consideration of a policy of exempting certain restrictions in exchange for affordable housing.

    but the “affordable housing” is specific in it’s designation. It has to be truly median-priced matched to median-income.

  39. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Larry:

    Very good points!

    I have tried for years to find someone, anyone who is willing to fund those sorts of inquiries. I have given up, I hope you have better luck.

    In the meantime, I have a book to finish and I am happy to say it is coming along well.

    EMR

  40. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    One other point.

    The data and the techniques exist, the problem is the finding resources to aggregate organic component scale data. Lucy and Phillips have evolved ways to do that but it is very time / resource consumptive.

    The core problem? No one: not Agencies, not Enterprises, not Institutions want to know the answers. A number of Enterprises use the techniques to find ways to make more money but those techniques and the results are propriatory.

    EMR

  41. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I think Cox would have caused less confusion if he didn’t use the term “smart growth” to mean “excessive land use regulation”. Smart growth advocates sometimes use the term “smart growth” to mean high-density development near transit, while critics use it to mean excessive land use regulation and housing shortages. To the extent that some smart growth advocates may want to restrict low density development to force people into high density development, and as a result make low density more expensive, that may explain Cox’s desire to include excessive land use regulation as a part of smart growth. The bottom line is that “smart growth” has an imprecise definition, so I can’t really say Cox is right or wrong to include restrictive land use as part of it.

    After reading the Cox report, I don’t see much info, if any, regarding development densities or settlement patterns. There is nothing in the report that questions whether detached houses on 5000 s/f lots or townhouses are a better idea that detached houses on 1/4 or 1/2 acre lots. There is nothing in it regarding commuting costs, travel times or travel distances. There is nothing about transit or gridded street systems or population densities.

    The report is really about excessive land use regulation, and how that can cause a significant shortage of housing overall in a metro area. Cox isn’t addressing shortages in different jurisdictions within the metro area. If a metro area has strong economic growth and has a significant shortage of housing, there will be significant upward pressure on home prices. You then combine that problem with sub-prime lenders providing even more available cash to people who can’t really afford these prices, and you end up with an even bigger bubble that will burst. Eventually, the prices get so high that people just stop buying and the market stalls. Usually the least affordable markets will crash the hardest.

    Comparing the restrictive land use policies of Loudoun and Chesterfield is too complicated. You could spend a year just trying to understand the zoning ordinance, subdivision ordinance and special exception policies of one county or city. An easier way to estimate which metro areas have excessive land regulation is to look at median home price divided by the median income of a metro area. Areas that have a high ratio typically have more land use regulations and restrictions, and generally suffer an overall shortage of housing. No one should consider this a perfect measurement or indicator.

    To get some idea of the numbers, see the 2007 report at:

    http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/2008/06/ratio-median-home-price-to-median.html

    The numbers can give one some idea which metro areas have problems with housing supply. LA, San Fran and San Jose all have multiples over 8. I don’t think you have to examine all the zoning and planning policies of every jurisdiction in those areas to conclude that they may have more restrictive land use.

    Houston and Dallas historically have had low housing multiples with good economic growth. There is a perception that the reason Dallas and Houston are so affordable is that they sprawl (consume land ) at a very high rate. Detached houses on 1/4 lots in Houston and Dallas are affordable. Smart Growth advocates don’t like to focus on Houston and Dallas for that reason, but I question whether you can jump to the conclusion that it’s just sprawl that makes them affordable. It could be that Houston and Dallas are good at producing an adequate number of housing units relative to the size of their economies and job markets, putting aside the type and density of the housing units. I think it’s possible that Houston and Dallas could be just as affordable overall with more compact development with more townhouses and detached houses on small lots, but I don’t think it’s possible to produce affordable detached houses on 1/4 acre lots without consuming a lot of land. To the extent that Houston and Dallas are dysfunctional is a different question than their housing affordability.

    Pittsburgh and Detroit are great examples of how anemic economic and job growth can make an area affordable. I don’t think there is much of a planning lesson there.

    The data also shows that Richmond and Tidewater (the VA Beach MSA) are more affordable than the DC area. As long as the Federal Government keeps producing jobs at a high rate in the DC area (not just govt. jobs but private contractor jobs), its questionable if the housing and transportation will ever keep up with the job growth.

    Portland, OR is also getting more expensive. How much of that is caused by the urban growth boundary is hard to say, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to assume it doesn’t help increase the supply of housing.

    Randal O’toole also had a similar study called the “Planning Penalty”.

    http://www.independent.org/pdf/policy_reports/2006-04-03-housing.pdf

    MJ

  42. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    MJ, your observations are right on target. Thanks for providing the online sources… and welcome to the Bacon’s Rebellion dialog.

  43. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    So, Larry, there you have it.

    (We could have predicted your two posts over on “Is VA Losing its Mojo?” that belong here so we will just go from there.)

    “MJ” says it all … “All” that is from the perspective of most academic and professional planners.

    1. Cox confused things by using the words “smart growth” … or maybe he didn’t

    2. Cox was not addressing settlement patterns, but then neither does MJ

    3. Cox was talking about “excessive land use regulations” but MJ offers no clue as to how one would identify such excesses.

    4. Comparing two jurisdictions is just too complected to bother with.

    5. Instead, lets look as a MSA table. Interesting, but not very.

    6. From 50,000 feet, Houston looks a lot like Dallas…

    Yada, Yada, Yada…

    MJ gets invited to a lot of conferences, he does not make any panel members mad and when all is said and done he is waving bowls of mush.

    His observations are just the reason I resigned from the professional planning Organizations a decade ago.

    They are part of the problem, not part of the solution. See “The Role of Municipal Planning in Creating Dysfunctional Human Settlement Patterns.”

    We hope you move your questions over here and you can engage MJ in a long dialogue.

    Perhaps he will tip his hand that he works for an Agency or perhaps an Institution as described in THE ESTATES MATRIX.

    Either way odds are he is paid to keep the mush murkey so there is no basis for policy other than Business-As-Usual.

    EMR

  44. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    yup.. I got my post in the wrong thread. sorry about that.

    What piques my interest in these discussions is to deal with the contradictions because if we can get them delt with – we can actually move on to the REAL issues.

    so far.. I’m not convinced that anyone has shown any correlation between land-use restrictions and prices.

    My view is that price is far more affected by supply and demand but the right kind of data could bolster the other argument but it would have to include more than comparing home prices from different areas.

    You pick Houston and I’ll pick Wichita Falls.

    What would that prove?

    You pick Fairfax and I’ll pick Gretna.

    Is Gretna more restrictive than Fairfax?

    Is housing in Gretna less expensive than Fairfax because it has less restrictive growth policies or are there other forces involved?

  45. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "Why do some want to provide greater protection for property rights in real property than for personal property?"

    I never made that distinction. I'd claim that there are other property rights that are neither real nor personal. We each own a piece of the government, and we have rights consistent with that ownership.

    If A develops his land in a manner that causes B, C & D's taxes to increase to pay for roads then we have a problem.

    I'd argue two things: first, we don't have a sufficient accounting system to know if that is true. That argument has been made without proof so often that it has become a truism, not necessarioly based on fact.

    Second, I would argue that this submsion is incomplete. A's development probably also makes B C & D's property more valuable ( at least according to EMR). There are complicated temporal issues at play here as well.

    Sure, Loudoun residents pay higher taxes than Fauquier residents: they also have more income and more property. Maybe paying higher taxes now is just a present payment against a future time when you sell out for more money than you would absent the development.

    Your basic argument is correct: no one should have an unfair advantage – overall. But the example is bad because it is incomplete and temporal.

    All I'm suggesting is that the argument that development costs others money has been made so often, and in so many venues, and with essentially the same phrasing, that it is most likely wrong on some occasions.

    WE need to figure out when it is correct and when it is incorrect, and that means we need to define property rights a lot better – both personal and real.

    RH

  46. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    ” tell me whether Loudoun has more restrictive growth policies than Chesterfield.”

    I don’t know the answer to that. Loudoun and Chesterfield were not in the data sets examined. I only submit that the data sets studied were more than anecdotal. As a result I would predict that the area with more restrictins has higher effective prices – after compensating for other factors like demand, amenities, and jobs.

    You don’t even need to compare Loudon and Chesterfield: You can compare Loudoun to Loudoun. You can find 3500 squre ft homes in western Loudoun which is highly restricted, and 3500 ft townhouses in Eastern Loudoun which is highly developed. Which one will cost more?

    And, if you buy that townhome you won’t be required to mow 180 acres of grass, or pay taxes for services you don’t get.

    Obviously, this is bogus, because you would have to compensate for those other variables – like vacant land and maintenance of it. If you did that, Western Loudoun would look even worse, in terms of affordability.

    That’s why so few people live there. In turn, that’s why the rules were made restrictive.

    RH

  47. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “For instance, in one area, you might have a “before” and “after” situation where one could compare historical data before restrictions with prices after restrictions.”

    That has been done, and the results are convincing.

    I’m not doing your homework for you on this.

    RH

  48. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Yes, they do compare apples to apples. One way this is done is by comparing monthly payments, to see what you can buy. A $1500 monthly payment is a $1500 montly payment, but it buys a lot more in some places than others. Even after demand and opther factors are considered.

    RG

  49. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “First, we would need to define exactly what are “restrictions” on private property. “

    You mean we would have to agree on what constitutes property, and what constitutes rights.

    I agree. And EMR is correct. the methods to do this exist, bey we need to invest a lot more in the project. I believe that if and when we get the answers, EMR won’t like them, or agree.

    RH

    RH

  50. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “I think Cox would have caused less confusion if he didn’t use the term “smart growth” to mean “excessive land use regulation”. “

    Agreed.

    MJ is spot on.

    There are two issues. Homes in more restrictive areas are more exclusive and cost more. A lot more. That raises the averae for the whole area (Western AND Eastern Loudoun).

    The second issue is what happens when there is so much area restricted that it affects availability. (All of Oregon is restricted compared to what’s inside the urban growth boundary.)

    Where is the example that shows more restriction REDUCED costs? I don’t think there is one. My sister is a resident in a townhome community her late husband developed, and for which he established the HOA.

    Since he died, the HOA has run amok, and even she is complaining about the costs of new regulations.

    RH

  51. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Pittsburgh and Detroit are great examples of how anemic economic and job growth can make an area affordable. I don’t think there is much of a planning lesson there. “

    EMR thinks we need less consumption. Talk to him about planning.

    RH

  52. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I think even the property rights folks want some restrictions themselves.

    For instance, one of the more onerous restrictions (in some folks eyes) that also affects the value of property is how many folks can live in a single family home.

    If you think about it, one of the most adverse rules regarding the availability of truly affordable housing is restrictions on how many folks can live in a structure designated as single family.

    If property owners of existing homes were allowed to convert their dwellings to rental housing with converted attics and basements and garages – the “affordable” housing issue would go away.

    So, you have to ask yourself – how consistent is it to be in favor of only some property rights and not others?

  53. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I think even the property rights folks want some restrictions themselves.

    Absolutely.

    The main restriction property rights advocates want is exactly that we NOT be in favor of some property rights and not others. ALL property rights are equal, but they may not have the same value.

    We ALL have equal property rights to clean air. Suppose that the amount of (clean but not necessarily pristine) air that you will use in a lifetime had a price on it. Those who value money more than clean air could sell it to those that need more than they are allotted (manufacturors and other polluters).

    As long as you don’t sell your allocation, you could not very well complain that the polluters were creating an externality – because they bought that property right, fair and square.

    On the other hand, if you wanted more than your share of clean air, you could bid against the polluters to buy what it is you want.

    But, in order for this kind of thing to happen, you must first catalogue all the rights explicitly, and be very cautious about creating new ones.

    An awful lot of the problems we have now consist of people creating claims for new rights out of thin air.

    EMR, for example, thinks we need a new balance between private rights and public responsibilities – which basicly boils down to him saying that the public should have more rights.

    RH

  54. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Ray – you crack me up sometimes.

    Are you implying that I as a land-owner have the right to pollute PCBs or dioxin and that laws restriction me from doing so are a “taking” of my rights and that the only fair way to do this would be to charge all other property owners to pay me to stop polluting?

    PLEASE – do not use 3000 words to reply,,. keep it simple and elegant if possible.

  55. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Read again what I said: everyone has an equal right to clean air. That air is property and could be bought and sold. If someone is polluting, they are using more than their share and they would have to buy the rights to use more.

    This is no different from any other cap and trade agreement, just carried to the personal level. If you don’t want your air polluted, don’t sell it. If you want it cleaner, buy some more. Large organizations that wish to promote clean air could raise money and bid against those that wish to buy air to pollute.

    Everyone is equal in this and there is no differentiation between private rights, public rights, real property, private property, or intangible property. It has nothing to do with being a land owner.

    I suspect that someone who wanted to emit dioxins or PCB’s would have a hard time finding people to sell him air to pollute.

    But, if a power plant can’t find someone who will sell him air for his CO2 emissions, and the lights go out then the price might go up and he might find some sellers.

    If it is “our air” why should trading be restricted to the big polluters?

    Sure, the example is a little silly, but just to show the theory. In practice, it is not so odd, and not far different from what is actually being done.

    What would be a taking is to agree that we all have equal dibs on the air, and then take that agreement away from some, or to arbitrarily set different prices for different uses, maybe.

    Consider fishing. All the fishermen have equal rights to catch fish. As the fish stocks are depleted we reduce the days you can fish or the catch you can take, but we don’t say that some people can go out and others cannot. A good or efficient fisherman can buy fishing days or catch rights from another. That fisherman gets paid (partly) to stay home and earn his money some other (and maybe less desireable) way.

    Like any other property right the problem is how to decide when to start. What happens if someone new wants to enter the fishing game? Obviously, we would all have to have some fishing rights. Those that want fish in the market would sell their rights, and those that wish to protect the sea would not.

    Pollution has a cost, and so does the absence of pollution: the only way to decide waht the relative values are is to have a market. Not let some people claim an infinite value for their rights and no value for other people’s rights.

    I know this seems strange to you, but in the end it is more efficient, less costly, and produces more goods with less pollution, less regulation, less enforcement, and less inspection, all of which cost much and produce little.

    RH

  56. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    We already have “air rights” you couldn’t build without them. We restrict air rights over the property near the end of the runways, for example. Those restrictions are reflected in the value of the land, and therefor the air rights are “traded” although indirectly.

    There are other cases of air rights being bought and sold: why should breathing rights or fishing rights be any different?

    Now, what happens when the polluter goes to someone in Africa who is destitute, and offers him money for his air rights? Those of us who wish to have clean air would have to reconsider who our competitors are.

    Obviously there would be a lot of other considerations. Japan located their steel industry in the Northeast corner, so the pollution blows out to sea. A trading scheme such as this would eliminate the free benefit they get from exporting their pollution.

    RH

  57. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Consumers have the ability to make wise decisions if they face prices that accurately reflect costs. Firms have just as much ability to innovate in ways that will attract thrifty buyers. High prices may be painful, but they convey a key nugget of information: Energy is scarce; use it wisely. If the government uses tax policy to artificially reduce energy prices, then the government will only deter private individuals from appropriate conservation.”

    Edward L. Glaeser, a professor of economics at Harvard University, is director of the Rappaport Institute for Greater Boston

    ————————

    Environmental Consumers have the ability to make wise decisions if they face prices that accurately reflect costs. Firms have just as much ability to innovate pollution reduction in ways that will attract thrifty buyers. High prices may be painful, but they convey a key nugget of information: a clean environment is scarce and expensive; use it wisely. If the government uses tax policy to artificially inflate pollution prices, then the government will only deter private individuals from appropriate spending.

    RH

  58. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Suppose that we want to know whether some new housing program for the poor is effective or not at improving their quality of life. In an experiment, HUD would take a pool of people who are eligible to participate in the program and would randomly assign a fraction to the “treatment” group and would randomly assign the rest to the “control group”. The control group would receive nothing. You may say that this is unfair but tracking their quality of life dynamics provides an interesting counter-factual to infer what would have happened to the treatment group had they not received “the treatment”. In this case, the treatment might be a suburban apartment at a subsidized price.

    Running such experiments would be an effective way to determine what parts of activist government are cost-effective. Such experiments could be run in every part of government ranging from the energy, health care, treasury, HUD and others.”

    http://greeneconomics.blogspot.com/

    Yeah, and EPA, and DOT, too.

    RH

  59. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    it’s a simple question:

    Do I have the right to pollute the air or the water whatever way I wish unless others pay me not to do it.

    Again.. 3000 words is not required for an answer.

    In fact, a simple yes or no is fine.

  60. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Do I have the right to pollute the air or the water whatever way I wish unless others pay me not to do it.”

    Read it again, that isn’t what I said.

    Everybody has the same rights to air. If you want to dirty the air over and above what your right allows you then you need to buy additional air rights.

    If you want to have more or cleaner air than your allotted amount then you have the right to buy that too.

    You might be offended if I sell my excess rights to a polluter, but they are my rights to sell, not yours. If you don’t want me to sell, you can offer me more. But that is NOT the same as paying a polluter not to pollute.

    Everybody has the same rights to air, therefore no one has the absolute right to pollute and no one has the absolute right NOT to be polluted. If they can do that, then it is the same as saying that their rights (to the same air) are worth more than the other guys.

    So, the way you find out what it is worth is to make a market.

    RH

  61. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    man this is hard:

    “..If you want to dirty the air over and above what your right “

    what IS YOUR RIGHT – Ray?

    do you have the right to pollute?

    what is “over and above”?

  62. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “what IS YOUR RIGHT ?”

    You seem to be finally catching on.

    We all have equal property rights to the air.

    The only question left is what are they? After that we can buy and sell at will, and quit arguing about what is cost effective.

    This is a key and fundamental component of free market economics theory: clear ownership has to be established. Once that happens (and it almost doesn’t matter WHO is assigned ownership) then the end result is almost always the same. Trading occurs until everyone gets the best deal available.

    In the case of newly minted property rights, like air rights, the logical place to start is to give everyone equal ownership. All we have to do is define how much that is and how clean is clean. After that, it is your property to use or sell as you see fit.

    Any way you use your air is going to result in some pollution, so it isn’t a question of whether you have the “right to pollute” it is a question of whether you have the right to use “your” air.

    You can never get the right answer if you insist on asking the wrong question.

    RH

  63. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I just emailed myself this thread, because it is destined to be a classic: Ed Risse declares “non-real” property rights more “real” than “real property rights”.

    Mr. Risse, has anyone ever built any of what you espouse?

    Are they too stupid and greedy to do so?

    At least Oceania has ALWAYS been at war with EastAsia.

    Give em hell Ray, you are the only one with a real dog in the hunt here.

    (p.s. for the “anecdotal” diversionaries: the median price of a home on the Vineyard topped $1M several years ago.)

  64. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    We think we have a right to clean air, because it is ubiquitous. What about clean tomatoes, after all, they are pretty nearly ubiquitous. But there is a key difference. We recognize that someone owns the tomatoes.

    “To maintain market efficiency, the government must maintain a functioning food safety and inspection system. But pulling the trigger early on a possible safety concern can lead to market panic and significant–and real–economic losses. So how certain should the government be before issuing a warning, and if the warning turns out wrong, should anyone suffering losses be compensated?

    On the other hand, if the government fails to issue a warning in the case of a widespread outbreak, should victims be compensated?”

    Now, if you leave off the tomatoes, and substitute air, then why would this statement be any different?

    Only because we do not have the same property rights for air as we have tomatoes.

    RH

  65. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    (p.s. for the “anecdotal” diversionaries: the median price of a home on the Vineyard topped $1M several years ago.)

    As I understand it, (froma realtor friend) there is not a single home in all of the town of Chilmark valued at under $1 million, and homes in the tens of million are not uncommon.

    The good news is that the taxes are extremely low in this “town” which is highly scatttered, and has no real center to put a clear edge around.

    That is because more than three quarters of the homes are vacant in the winter, and send no children to the schools. This strategy is similar to the Fauquier strategy of eliminating schooling costs by raising mostly horses and cattle instead of kids.

    But, lets be fair here. There are homes which cost much less, and the prices fluctuate madly with the economy because second homes are the first to go in a downturn.

    Thanks for the support though. I’m really not all that hard to get along with: just don’t try to tell me how we will all be better off if only a few of us give up something, or we will all be better off by magically getting something for nothing.

    RH

  66. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The July 28 Wall Street Journal had an interesting interview with Harvard Economist Edward Glaeser on a similar issue that Wendell Cox was researching:

    http://www.wsj.com/article/SB121676446070675115.html?mod=todays_asia_nonsub_marketplace

    MJ

  67. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Wendell Cox is a very clever contrarian. He makes arguments that send my BS flag up, but they are very well done, and backed up with figures.

    The figures themselves may be wrong, but at least he is not blatantly faulty like Floodguy, and he serves a purpose in making people think.

    We call a theater a success if it is crowded but we call a road a failure if it is crowded.

    He pokes fun at the smart growth crowd pooh poohing LA’s autocentric society by pointing out that LA is actually very dense (depending on what you measure and how, it turns out.)

    I wonder how he gets his money?

    RH

  68. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Edward Glaeser is Wendell Cox and Randal O’Tool with a better job and fewer enemies.

    He is not closer to urnderstanding how the real world works than Cox and O’Tool as documented by the long quote that Larry Gross posted some time ago.

  69. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Oh, come on.

    Do you really know anything about Ed Glaeser? He generally advocates more urban living as a good environmental move.

    But he is at least honest enough to go out and MEASURE the nonsense and lies that frequently get promoted as “urban planning”. I was surprised to see the article larry quoted, because it was so different from his usual perpective.

    The way the real world works is that people are not so stupid as to not know when they are 50% worse off as a result of city costs.

    Look at the graphs at http://www.mjperry.blogspot.com/

    under the post “In Pictures: Real Estate Bubbles and Non-Bubbles”

    California Real Estate Bubble:
    Florida Real Estate Bubble:
    No real estate bubble in Texas:
    No real estate bubble in South Dakota:

    Ed, you want to believe the way YOU think the world works, go ahead. But please don’t insult us by trying to pawn it off as erudition.

    RH

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