Kermit the Frog Notwithstanding, It Is Easy Being Green

Many people have the wrong idea about “green” houses. They think of Mongolian-style yurts, or solar-mounted rooftops, or kitchen counters made of recycled glass. But going green rarely entails anything that exotic or expensive, says Karl Bren, executive director Earthcraft Virginia. “It’s just a matter of paying an attention to the details. Like making sure the [HVAC] ductwork isn’t leaking.”

Green building doesn’t have to be expensive, stressed Bren and two other panelists at a Wednesday panel discussion hosted by the Richmond branch of the Urban Land Institute. Anecdotal evidence backed up by formal studies generally conclude that erecting commercial and residential buildings according to green standards costs only 1 percent to 3 percent more than conventional building. Those costs can be recouped many times over in the form of lower energy bills, lower water bills, lower maintenance and improved health.

An up-front expenditure of an additional $3 to $5 per square foot can yield $50 to $60 in savings over a 20-year period, said Sandra Leibowitz Earley, a principal with Sustainable Design Consulting. The more effort a developer makes early in the project on setting goals and assembling an integrated design team, she added, the more favorable the economics look.

While green, or sustainable, building consumes more up-front resources in design costs, it can shave expenses by reducing the size of HVAC systems, and it reaps big savings in lower utility bills. By better controlling moisture and mildew, green buildings also reduce the incidence of asthma – now the leading cause of admittance into emergency rooms, Bren said.

Whether your goal is energy independence from foreign despots or reduction of the carbon dioxide emissions implicated in global warming, switching to green building standards must be a central element of national energy policy. According to Earley, buildings account for 37 percent of all U.S. energy use, 12 percent of water consumption, 40 percent of non-industrial waste and 35 percent of CO2 emissions. As an aside, buildings also are far more polluted (in ways that effect humans) than the outdoors.

The Richmond region is five to seven years behind more progressive regions of the country in embracing green building techniques, the panelists said, but the message is catching on.

Bren’s not-for-profit enterprise provides a certification process, similar to LEED (Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design), for residential housing. Earley’s Richmond-based company provides sustainable design services to builders and developers – mainly in the Washington area but in the Richmond region as well.

The third panelist, Lynn J. Rogien, is the green project manager for W.M. Jordan, one of the region’s largest construction companies. When viewed on a life-cycle basis, green commercial buildings offer superior rates of return for investors, he said. While up-front design costs and construction costs are marginally higher, he said, utilities are significantly lower. So are O&M (operations and maintenance costs). And here’s the kicker: Developers can charge higher lease rates.

“The market demand is changing,” Rogien said. “Developers have discovered that they can make a higher return on investment when they make a green, or high-performance, building. Our country is in a paradigm shift. We’re changing the way we do business construction.”

(Cross-posted from R’Biz.)


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  1. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    From the McLean Connection newspaper. West*Group Builds Carbon-Neutral House
    West*Group has launched a new initiative with the construction of the first "carbon-neutral" house in the mid-Atlantic region.

    The project will showcase a new approach to development, which combines more efficient building design, innovative technology and a smart location to reduce carbon emissions — the leading source of harmful greenhouse gases. At completion, the house is projected to use 70-80 percent less energy per square foot than a comparable new house. The home is being built in partnership with Fairfax-based GreenSpur, Inc.

    "Climate change demands that we learn to build more efficiently, understand renewable energy and that we locate development in places where people can live, work and be less dependent on automobiles," said West*Group Chairman Jerry Halpin.

    GreenSpur founder and President Mark Turner added: "The project will showcase how energy-efficient design and renewable-energy systems come together in a home that is not only environmentally friendly but also a beautiful place to live. This will be both a model project and home that fits right into the surrounding community."

    THE HOME SITE was selected because of its walking distance proximity to the amenities of McLean and to a Metro bus stop. The house will be less than a five-minute walk from the grocery store, pharmacy, restaurants and numerous other shops in downtown McLean. "A family can live here and use the Metro bus and train to get downtown or to Tysons in less than a half an hour. Reliable and attractive public transportation is a key piece of the carbon puzzle; we must increase opportunities for people to get out of their cars if we are going to be successful in addressing climate change," said Mark Lowham, senior vice president of West*Group.

    The house is being designed by Cunningham Quill Architects of Washington and will feature four bedrooms and three and a half bathrooms. It will encompass approximately 3,800 square feet of living Space — a substantial size yet smaller than other new houses in the neighborhood. "Part of the mission of the project is to show how we can live better with less," noted Lowham.

    ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY features of the house include a geothermal system for heating and cooling, a solar hot water system, and photovoltaic panels to generate electricity. The design and site plan are being subjected to extensive energy modeling to position most efficiently the house on the site and to incorporate architectural elements for thermal efficiency. The walls and roof will be insulated at roughly twice the standard for new construction.

    For more information about the project visit http://www.CO2FreeLiving.com.

    TMT

    The article is available at http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=317327&paper=68&cat=104

  2. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The replacement tme for turning over the stock of autos is something like 14 years. What is the replacement time for turning over the stock of housing?

    What is the point of saying that housing uses 37% of our energy in this context of green construction? If you get 100% of all new construction to be built green and it saves 15% on energy costs, how much will that 37% be reduced over say the next fifty years of new construction?

    That seems like a long row to hoe in order to gain energy independence from foreighn despots or significant CO2 reduction.

    “must be a central element of national energy policy” So there is yet another number one priority we have to fully fund.

    Isn’t it enough just to get a decent return in savings from the green investment for the owner? Why do we have to try to mae these things more than they are?

    RH

  3. Accurate Avatar
    Accurate

    Oh are we talking about green like this disaster??

    http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/013/379ikbea.asp

    There are some good ideas floating around, but there are some that are a disaster on the one hand and ridiculous on the other hand. I see it every day, when a concept like ‘green’ goes in, common sense goes out. In 20 years (or less) the ‘mistakes’ of what passes for green now, will be found out. In the meantime, go for it folks, makes lots of work for me.

  4. Richard G. Williams, Jr. Avatar
    Richard G. Williams, Jr.

    “…reduction of the carbon dioxide emissions implicated in global warming, switching to green building standards must be a central element of national energy policy.”

    Says who? I don’t except the premise. Man-made global warming is the biggest liberty and wealth grabbing scam in the history of mankind. There is no “consensus” on the science and, in fact, there are more scientists on record as being skeptics than there are on that phony list trumpeted by the UN who wants nothing more than to use the fear-mongering to transfer wealth from the U.S. to its anti-American members.

    As for me, I’m turning my thermostat down to 60 in the summer and up to 80 in the winter, just to protest.
    🙂

  5. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    I agree that it’s easy to be green if you are building a new house. The house costs a bit more but the energy costs are lower. When you go to sell the house you have the gas and electric bills to prove the house is green. Therefore, your house is worth more.

    But RH has a point. The housing market only turns over so fast. The vast, vast majority of people in Virginia will spend the rest of 2008 and all of 2009 living in a house that is already built. How can these people conserve energy? I have always thought that a web site which let you input characteristics of your house and returned an energy rating along with some possible areas for improvement would be great. The site could probably pay for itself with targeted advertising.

    The next step is connecting the web site to a smart meter on your house. Now, real time data regarding the house’s energy use is available to teh web site. The quality of the advice to the homeowner goes up substantially.

    The final step in the process would be for the homeowner to install a sensor set. This is much less exotic than it sounds. There are sensors that detect air movement (from open doors, poorly insulated windows, etc), temperature, light and other basic measures. They run on batteries and come with a low energy transmitter that will get their data to your PC (various means). Now, you’ve got a profile of your house, your electricity and gas bills, smart meter readings and sensor data. The homeowner can take some very focused steps to reduce energy usage, costs and carbon footprint.

    I found a reference $98.03 as the average electricity bill per month in Virginia (2006 data). Let’s say that’s going to double given both the competence of the General Assembly and the honesty of Dominion – Virginia. $200 / month in a couple of years?

    California average KWH/mo use is 590 while Virginia is 1155/mo. Let’s say the steps I recommend would lower the Virginia average to the California average. That’s about half the KWH. So, half the useage at $200 / mo. means we save $100 / mo or $1200 / yr.

    And … let’s say your personal cost of capital is 6% with a planning horizon of 8 years. The present value of saving $1200 per year for 8 years at a cost of capital of 6% = about $8,000. Which means you can spend up to $8,000 today to cut your energy bill in half for the next 8 years and still come out ahead on the deal.

    Let’s be conservative. Let’s say the average Virginia homeowner could spend $6,000 on improvements to his or her home right now and expect it to pay back in lower electricity bills. What would the average homeowner do?

    This whole area could be the subject of a long article on BaconsRebellion.

  6. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: “California average KWH/mo use is 590 while Virginia is 1155/mo.”

    The way that we understand the energy use of our homes is akin to driving a car with a dead instrument panel.

    Just imagine. You don’t know your speed, or how much gasoline you have or whether your oil or water are high or low…not even how many miles you have traveled.

    We have two significant events with regard to home electricity.

    The first is whether your house has power …or not…. and we do tend to notice this, don’t we?

    The second is your electric bill – which, I don’t know about others, but it frustrates the heck out of me.

    If I had a home equivalent of dash guages – at the least, I would have some idea how much my air conditioning costs; I’d have some idea of how much I save if I set the thermostat at 78 verses 75.

    I’d know when my water heater comes on – how much fuel it “burns” … I’d be able to, at the least, consider how much I could save by lowering it 5 or 10 degrees or how much a tankless heater might compare in costs.

    And if someone told me there was an impending 20% rate increase – I would, at the least, have some clue about what the low hanging fruit would be – and if I had the option of negating the 20% rate increase by deferring my use of peak power, I certainly would be dumb – not to consider looking into how much of it I can save without significantly affecting the benefits I get from using electricity.

    I suspect many folks are somewhere in the same ballpark as myself in terms of wanting to do better but not really knowing enough ….to make informed decisions.

    should I upgrade my insulation or should I replace my windows?

    Can I save MORE by using only full loads in the washer or by turning off the hot water to the washer and using cold water detergent?

    If I buy a washer that gets rid of much more of the water BEFORE I put them in the dryer?

    etc, etc…

    yes.. there are folks who don’t give a rat’s behind and basically want to be left alone…(willfully ignorant in my book) but there are others who want…..at the least – the option… of being better informed.

    and then along the lines of what Groveton is suggesting…

    to be able to receive – for one’s own house – a recommendation show the best way to achieve …say a 20% reduction in use… or 30 or even 40%.. just to see.. a roadmap to – know -even if you decide you don’t want to do that whole trip.

    … and then to be thinking ahead… when the time does come to replace something that is a big user of energy… to know the consequences of picking a cheaper appliance with a higher energy use.

  7. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Which means you can spend up to $8,000 today to cut your energy bill in half for the next 8 years and still come out ahead on the deal.”

    A simple statement like that is all that is needed to convince people to make the right needed improvements. Still, $6000 in a lump is hard for many people to come by. They will have to borrow the money, which changes Groveton’s analysis somewhat.

    And, the money is even harder to come by right now, which high food and fuel prices. This is an example of what EMR says about not haveing the resources to fix the problems that are causing the problems.

    Still, thre are alot of stupid green ideas, and even green scams. One recommendation I heard was to use 3/4 diameter water pipes in your house to save energy. The idea is that it takes less energy to move water through a larger pipe.

    But a larger hot water pipe will take a lot more hot water out of yur tank before it gets to the faucet. And anyway the pumping is already done before the pipe diameter makes any difference. Either the water is pumped to a standpipe or water tower, or else your well pumps it to a pressure tank.

    It is never quite as easy as it seems at first glance, and it generally costs more than you think. And sometimes you just get bad results, as Accurate notes.

    What say you, Larry, should the government subsidize loans for home greening improvements, and guarantee the loans?

    RH

  8. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Larry is right. the MPG guage on my Prius may be its single biggest energy saving feature. When that guage drops, your fooot comes right off the gas pedal.

    But I think he makes too much of it. Your appliances tell you how much they use. Figure out your electric rate and hanga sign on each one 10 cents a minute, or whatever. I don’t really see a dashboard for the house being as usefule as the guage on the Prius.

    RH

  9. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I have a problem with open-ended subsidies – no matter the professed purpose – for things for which there is already a demand for.

    Most every subsidy in existence right now – has abuses – and my suspects is that some of the loopholes being exploited are in those subsidies on purpose from day one.

    and the longer the subsidy is available , the more the “creative” types will figure out how to game the process and further corrupt the political process to expand it and exploit it more.

    Such subsidies are also responsible for a mindset of “I’m entitled” which is the wrong direction because instead of an ethic of individual responsibility – we are creating folks who think it is up to someone else to deal with their problems.

    That’s how we end up with folks signing up for mortgages and then walking away from a personal debt – because they believed that if the house did not appreciate in value – that they can walk away.

    the phrase… ” I did it the old-fashioned way – I EARNED it ” is becoming a joke.

    instead the mindset is “I’m entitled”.

  10. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    ” we are creating folks who think it is up to someone else to deal with their problems.”

    Well, yes, but at the same time we also seem to be creating a class of people who think someone else is creating all their problems, and that they are therefore “entitled” to legislation to make those people, or their habits, go away.

    These people think they are ‘entitled” to legislation or regulation to eliminate every externality they can fabricate with whatever price they choose to hang on it.

    Even though the mass majority of people use electricity when they need to use it, and even though we have agreed for decades to average the costs associated with peak usage, suddenly we have a handful who claim that sytem is wrong and unfair because it creates an externality for night workers and retirees or some such thing.

    Therefore they are entitled to require Dominion spend $600 million dollars on a smart grid which will save no energy, produce no energy, but what it will do is charge the vast majority more for the same energy they are using now.

    I think it is great that Dominion can control my AC and hot water to even out their load by alternating when mine comes on with when my neighbor’s comes on. That’s cool with me as long as I’m still cool. But the problem is that both those AC’s will still be running during peak periods, but now that will cost me much moer than before.

    Presumably, the time the AC is running off peak period will cost me less, so the end result is that I average my own usage instead of having an average rate. Overall, maybe I pay the same as before, but probably I pay more. After all the whole idea is to “incentivise” people to use less. But now I also have to pay for the smart grid, which some people think they are “entitled” to.

    Other than how you choose the starting point, how is such behavior any different from people who think they are “entitled” to a subsidy?

    I think the way you solve these kind of entitlement problems is to write them into the property rights. If it isn’t on your title, then you are not entitled. And if it is on your title, then you can expect to pay for it.

    RH

  11. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    If you look at Groveton’s analysis, you could argue that if enough people save 20% on their energy that would affect the cost of energy for all of us.

    If Harry Homeowner spends $6000 to make his home energy efficient he gets a payback of maybe $750 per year. His lower fuel bill lowers demand so that maybe My fuel bill drops by $0.75.

    Why shouldn’t I be willing to subsidize Harry $0.075 cents since my subsidy to him buys me just a good a rate of return to me as his primary investment brings to him?

    RH

  12. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Let’s take airlines or cell phone companies.

    In both cases, they will have to purchase additional resources to be able to meet peak hour demands.

    The question at hand.. is not legislative at all – it is simply, how can that company recover it’s costs.

    They can choose:

    1. – to add the cost for additional resources to all customers bills whether they are the ones to need peak hour services or not

    2. – charge proportionally – I would say – equitably – the costs that accrue to the folks who want those services.

    If the company that is trying to deal with these issues asks ME if I want to “help” pay for others peak hour demands, my response is.. if I do that.. how am I assured that even more folks won’t want to take advantage of that “subsidy” until the point is reached where my only recourse to get back my money is to join the crowd of those that want peak hour services.

    Obviously, if you ask me my preferences, I’m going to want to pay for what I use and nothing more.

    Why this ends up being portrayed as me being the bad guy is beyond me.

    I find it interesting that many of the “really good” ideas require everybody to “participate”.. whether it really benefits them or not.

    Again.. what i support.. is each person paying for what they use – the cost of what is required to provide them -what they use.

    I see efforts to ‘spread” the pain as little more than excuses to have others pay for what is more expensive for those that want more expensive services but don’t want to pay for them.

  13. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “whether they are the ones to need peak hour services or not”

    Well yes, but why do we have peak hour? Because that’s when most of us are using it. You are claiming that some people are being charged wrongly, when that number is demonstrably small. Why should THEY call the shots?

    “charge proportionally “

    Sure, and while they are at it, lets charge by distance, too. We DO charge proportionately, the more you use the more you pay. What you want is to charge temporally, in addition. As it stands now we average the peak usagae across all users (Admittedly whether they are peak users or not. They still have the option of using electricity any time of day or night, same as anyone else. Their CHOICE is not restricted.) Under Temporal charging each user becomes responsible for his own averaging of costs, and I don’t see that much of a difference, all things considered.

    In addition what we hae is $600 million (and more) in transaction costs, just to make it possible for offpeak users to “save money” compared to the masses of others for whom temproral prices were raised. You are demanding that they partisipate in your plan whether it really benefits them or not.

    As it stands now all the electricity we use gets paid for. We pay ALL of the costs. It is not an issue of not paying, it is an issue of how accurately the costs are averaged. In order to fix what you see as an inequality in how things are averaged, you propose to bill out $600 million dollars – and average it over everybody, whether they benefit or not!

    I really don’t have a prolem with what you are trying to do, but the arguments you use to achive them are terrible.

    All I need to know is that the savings that you propose are greater than the transaction costs you propose. If you can prove that, then I’m on your side.

    I don’t see that happening here. What I see is no real net savings with an additional transaction cost. And this additional cost is justified because it is “more fair”, when all it is is a wealth transfer. As such it is a property rights issue, and that is what we should call it.

    RH

  14. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “Well yes, but why do we have peak hour? Because that’s when most of us are using it.”

    Rh – what does that have to do with anything at all?

    If they want to use it at that hour and it costs more to generate it at that hour -then those costs BELONG to the folks that use it – no one else.

    the folks “calling the shots” are only saying that they want the folks who are causing the costs – to be responsible for those costs – nothing more.

    ther is no linkage, no nexus to anything else – nor should there be

    there is no need, no justification for “averaging” ….

    you, me, everyone, should pay for what you use – period… no dancing around..no hand-waving.. no rope-a-dope …”well what about this other issue”.. just plain.. pay for what you use…

    end of story… no excuses…

    if you, or I want peak power.. fine and dandy.. pay for it..

  15. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “what does that have to do with anything at all?”

    Because it denies the claim that most people aren’t already paying for peak power.

    If the costs for peak power belong to those that want it and no one else, then the costs for smart grid should belong to those that want it, and no one else.

    ———————

    Look, why does peak powercost more?

    a) We have expensive power plants sitting around that we don’t use much.

    b) Those power plants mostly use expensive natural gas for fuel.

    If we have smart grid, those power plants will sit around doing nothing anyway, and we still pay for them.

    If smart grid works (doubtful) and people shift to off peak we will burn more coal in the base plants.

    Eventually we will need more power (even floodguy admits this), and where does it come from? First we press the peak plants into service burning exensive (and valuable for other uses) natural gas, which drives up the cost of fertilizer and other chemical feed stocks. As a result we have less peaking capacity if we do need it and less energy security.

    Or else, we build more big coal and nuclear plants (in remote places) and transmit power long distances.

    Where is the advantage? The REAL problem we face is how do we site power plants and transmission lines and make the costs for THOSE fair. Maybe some poor schmuck who gets gypped a few cents evey month because he pays an average rate and works night shift: I agree we should fix that. But on a scale of one to ten in injustices, it is pretty far dwon the list to create an expenditure of $600 million dollars to ameliorate.

    You are right in saying that with smart grid there is no need, no justification for “averaging”. But that assumes that smart grid has no costs. If the costs of smart grid are greater than the savings from not averaging, there is no advantage.

    But there is REALLY no advantage in inventing something and then mandating that everyone pay for and use a system that makes their life more expensive, more complicated, and more aggravating.

    The folks “calling the shots” are NOT only saying they want a fair cost allocation. They are saying that EVERYONE will save money on this, at the same time they say charging more will result in less use.

    They are saying this is good for everybody and won’t cost anyone anything.

    They are saying it is a partial cure for geenhouse gases but they admit we will still need more power, and they want to shift more power to baseload – where the coal plants operate best.

    They are saying it will alleviate the need for more power plants and power lines, but they say we will need them anyway.

    They are saying that this is for the greater good, at the same time they admit it is to reduce peak power used by most.

    It is a giant lie and a fraud. Please just tell us the truth.

    If it was only a question of fairness in pricing, I would agree with you. But, that isn’t what this is about at all. That is a red herring and small potatoes.But even if i’t was a question of fair pricing Id insist the allocation of costs to get at the fair pricing be fair as well.

    When the reason we have peak power is because that is when most people use it, when they need it most, then it is hard to see how averaging those costs across the clock are such an onerous burden that we should ALL shell out $600 million to protect and even benefit a few.

    RH

  16. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “those costs BELONG to those that use it.”

    I’m glad to see you are finally getting on the property rights boat.

    Now, how do we know those costs belong to those users? Where is the deed?

    The nonusers claim the right to a huge accounting system called smart grid, just to demnstrae where the costs belong. Where is the deed that grants them rights to that system?

    The non-users essentially claim that their money is more valuable than the money of users, even against a custom of accepted ong usage. They make that claim because they claim a right the other side doesn’t have: the right to decide who pays for what.

    Again, where is their prior deed to that right? And if that is the case, how did we get where we are now? We must have thought it was OK once.

    RH

  17. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    “Kermit the Frog Notwithstanding, It Is Easy Being Green”

    But is it easy being green enough to make any difference?

    EMR

  18. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    EMR took the words out of my mouth.

    RH

  19. floodguy Avatar
    floodguy

    A/c smart switches is easy, you’ll feel no change in comfort level, and it makes a difference.

    And the only reason why you think it won’t make a difference, is because you haven’t educated yourself on it. Moreover, you wouldn’t have even know about it, if you didn’t hear it from me.

    Don’t you think its about time you did some research on the topic?

  20. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “Now, how do we know those costs belong to those users? Where is the deed? “

    let me guess.. ummm… could it be because they are the ones who are turning on their appliances and using the power?

    this is what you refuse to acknowledge.

    You want electricity to be available for one low price no matter when you use it and to charge everyone the same price.

    it’s your basic credo: “everyone uses and everyone pays”

    it’s the Consumption credo.

    this way of charging basically encourages everyone to use more because the costs of doing so are marginal and the folks that use more get it for less because the folks that use less are paying more.

    The proof of this comes when you say that the plants sit around unused – and they don’t.

    eventually in a scenario where consumption is rewarded, you kneed more generation capacity.

    the use per customers actually goes up…

    like VMT has gone up because our policies encouraged more driving…

    and then you equate status-quo policies that encourage consumption rather than conservation – as “property rights”.

    In other words, people have a right to use more because they “need” more and everyone – no matter how much they use or want to conserve – they need to pay more also.

    This is how rate-hikes happen.

    They apply to everyone because the current policy basically rewards consumption – because users don’t pay their proportional marginal costs when they do use more.

    They use electricity that cost 9 times as much to generate – for the same low price as base power.

    And why not… if you could buy premium gas for regular prices, you would too…

    Anytime we have a policy where we charge everyone the same price no matter what it costs to provide it – we are not allocating the actual costs to the people who actually incur those costs.

    It’s a policy that encourages consumption rather than letting people decide how much they want to use and how much they want to conserve.

    If we sold cars, cell-phone minutes, airline tickets, or just about anything else this way – we’d have higher and higher prices to pay for more and more – subsidized use.

    Your philosophy is inherently one that espouses subsidies for all.

  21. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “could it be because they are the ones who are turning on their appliances and using the power?”

    OK, good response, as far as it goes. When I said how do we know thos costs belong to those users, I was referring to a more general and historical condition, which is that we chartered Dominion to provide power to everyone, under certain conditions and assumptions.

    You are now making a new claim that was never written in or anticipated in the original agreements. That is a claim of specific charges for specific costs, which are as of now, still unknown, specifically.

    But at least your question indicates you are now willing to view this as a matter of property rights. My question is that since we didn’t have these rights before, why do we suddently have them now? Why do we think tht these new rights suddenly trump the rights granted previously?

    EMR thinks we should charge by distance, you think we should charge by time.

    I think we should charge by how much it costs to figure out what to charge.

    Why should one of us have more rights than the other?

    RH

  22. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Whew, what a weekend. Forty gallons of fuel, five gallons of gatorade. I even broke down and had a couple of beers, in spite of the heat.

    The transmission on my tractor was so hot, I could have heated my house for a week.

    I don’t espouse subsidies for anyone, but I also don’t think subsidies are inherently bad: sometimes the serve a useful purpose. Even if you were right, espousing subsidies for all is more egalitarian than espousing subsidies for some, which is what you do.

    We don’t sell cell phone minutes, airline tickets, or autos as a state sponsored monopoly. The people who do arefree to make any bad decisions they choose.

    The fact that this is a state sponsored monopoly changes the rules of what constitutes a free market entirely, although you refuse to beleive that.

    There is nothing wron g with encouraging appropriate consumption. The system we have now allows people to decide how much they want to use and how much they want to conserve. The more you conserve the more you save. Why do you have a problem with that?

    —————————

    “…we are not allocating the actual costs to the people who actually incur those costs.”

    Individually and temporally, no we are not. But since peak usage is caused when most people use it, the average rate is not very far from the individual facts. It is called regression to the mean.

    —————————

    “…if you could buy premium gas for regular prices, you would too… “

    My car requires regular gas. I would NEVER put premium in it. There is no reason for it and it is a total waste. Besides, the cars computer would only detune the engine to account for the extra and unneeded octane.

    ————————

    “They use electricity that cost 9 times as much to generate …”

    It used to be eight times as much, when did it go up? Besides that number is only for the peak of peak, a few days a year. The rest of sub peak energy costs much less than that. Such exaggeration hurts your cause because you scare people into thinking that peak rates will actually be nine times as much, which is nonsense.

    —————————

    “..VMT has gone up because our policies encouraged more driving…”

    This is an outright lie, which any cursory examination of statistics will show. The reasons we drive more is that we have more drivers and more places to go. Also, driving costs less because autos are much better and fuel is cheap.

    Yes, I said cheap. Compared to what we earn, fuel costs less today than in 1959. I know for a fact that I drive no more than I did thirty years ago, and my costs are less.

    ————————–

    “..rate-hikes happen.

    They apply to everyone because the current policy basically rewards consumption…”

    Even if this was true, you would have blown your credibility with the previous blather.. Current policy rewards conservation: the less you use, the less you pay.

    ——————————

    “users don’t pay their proportional marginal costs when they do use more.”

    Users pay their costs on a widely averaged basis. This basis has been deemed fair for over thirty years. If users wer NOT paying their costs, Dominion would be bankrupt.

    It isn’t that the costs are not being paid, it is that you do not care for the basis. Making falsehoods does not encourage your case.

    —————————
    “….in a scenario where consumption is rewarded, you kneed more generation capacity.”

    You let me know when I get a lower rate for using more. Then I will agree I am getting rewarded for using more.

    ——————————–

    “You want electricity to be available for one low price no matter when you use it…. “

    That low price includes the cost for peak electricity and it is a high price. That is the basis for your original complaint, is it not?

    If the vast bulk of people use power at peak times (which seems self evident) then why does it matter when they use it, as long as it is paid for?

    ————————-

    “You want electricity to be available for one low price no matter when you use it…. “

    I don’t want nonsense to dictate my electric rates.

    ——————————–

    “everyone uses and everyone pays”

    Yeah, well, except the people who elect not to use, like the people who don’t have air conditioning.

    —————————-

    “…this way of charging basically encourages everyone to use more because the costs of doing so are marginal and the folks that use more get it for less because the folks that use less are paying more.”

    Howzat? Almost everyone uses more, thats why we have peak demand. The costs of that are average in. There are so few people using less during peak hours that the marginal cost paid is preety accurate.

    Even if you are right, the people who use less have the same options as anyone else, —and it costs them no more. What you pay for is the OPTION of having power when you need it most, and also for the power.

    ———————————

    “A/c smart switches is easy, you’ll feel no change in comfort level, and it makes a difference. “

    I won’t feel any difference because I have no AC (Except a couple of window units that I use, guess when? When it is unbearable otherwise.)

    I don’t have a major dog in this fight, except I just can’t stand utterly stupid arguments.

    Say I have an AC that runs five minutes out of fifteen. You are right, it probably doesn’t make a lot of difference which five it runs, as far as comfort goes.

    But our good friend Larry is tellling us peak rates should be nine time as high as they are now.

    If I am running during a peak hour, why will it make any difference in my bill which five minutes I run.

    Sure, it will make a difference.

    It will make a difference to Dominion, who gets to charge more for the same electricity.

    And it will make a huge difference in comfort level to those that turn off their AC’s to avoid the charges.

    That’s what you really want, is less consumption, no matter what the cost. What you really want, is for a mythical minority who don’t use electricity to call the shots on the rates – no matter what it costs.

    What you really want is new property rights that don’t presently exist, and you want someone else to pay for them.

    RH

  23. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    uncle! uncle!

    I’ve been out-blathered!

  24. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Yeah, well, at least you admit it was blather.

    I still maintain that the most important issue concerning electrical expanasion at Dominion is not how much we might save for a while, but what happens next. And what happens next is likely to involve eminent domain.

    Here is an article describing how development takings are alive and well, long after KELO resulted in dozens of new laws to curb the practice.

    http://economics.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=economics&cdn=money&tm=472&gps=72_930_1148_685&f=00&su=p649.0.147.ip_&tt=3&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.divisionoflabour.com/

    RH

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