INFRASTRUCTURE PART TWO POINT ONE

OH BOY!

Mr. Bacon came forward with his 10 percent concern about the SYNERGY take on INFRASTRUCTURE and it is a WINNER!!

EMR agrees with almost 100 percent of Bacon’s 10 percent reservation.

What is even better, his ‘reservation’ is a big fat pitch right over the heart of the plate.

More on that in a moment, but first:

WHAT MR. BACON SAID:

“OK, I’m back for a second try… As usual, I agree with 90% of what EMR says here. There *is* a housing and affordability crisis, there *is* a mobility and access crisis, dysfunctional human settlement patterns *are* at the root of both, and the key to reforming human settlement patterns *is* (a) governance reform, (b) devising rules by which people pay the location-variable costs of where they live, work and play, and (c) (my emphasis) dismantling the zoning/regulatory policies virtually mandate the scattered, disconnected, low-density pattern of land use that plague us today.

“Also, let me say that I enjoyed EMR’s perspective on the tradeoffs between affordability, fuel mileage and safety in autonomobiles — a fresh analysis I had not seen anywhere before.

“That said, it is inevitable in a conversation to focus on areas of disagreement. While I agree with EMR that the economics of building a transportation system around autonomobiles has reached a dead end, I can’t say I’m enthralled with the alternatives.

[Mr. Bacon said: I CAN’T SAY I’M ENTHRALLED WITH THE ALTERNATIVES!!

BACON IS RIGHT…

IF HE MEANS THE ALTERNATIVES MOST OTHERS HAVE PUT ON THE TABLE.

But so far in these three perspectives on infrastructure, EMR has only talked about WHAT DOES NOT WORK and why citizens and their Agencies, Enterprises and Institutions must understand what makes Urban settlements functional BEFORE they build INFRA to support their STRUCTURE.]

“Yes, redesigning the urban space can make it possible for people to take more trips on foot and by bicycle (or, who knows, by Segway). That we should do. But let’s be realistic, bicycles will never be more than a niche mode of transportation, and walking is useful only for very short trips.

[The future of AFFORDABLE Mobility and Access requires that the vast majority of Urban trips be VERY SHORT TRIPS. In the most functional Urban places, they already are — that is what makes them great places to live, work and seek Services.]

“My reservation about buses, light rail, heavy rail and high-speed intercity rail is that they all require massive subsidies.”

[Because of the current station area settlement patterns as demonstrated in the case of Tysons Corner. The Silver Line could pay for itself IF it was not a give away to adjacent land speculators. Right TMT?]

“ Creating more functional land use patterns undoubtedly would improve the dismal economics of buses and perhaps light rail, but there is no getting around the fact that the up-front capital costs of heavy rail are extremely high, that projects routinely experience massive cost overruns, and they will continue needing operating subsidies on an ongoing basis. Do we really want a transportation system with those characteristics as we hurtle towards Boomergeddon?

“Say what you will about roads and highways, it is possible to make them pay their own way through user fees (gas taxes, mileage taxes, tolls, whatever) in a way that is not possible with mass transit.”

[When roadways do pay their full cost, then roadways and the private vehicles to use them will be more expensive than most Households will be able to pay.]

“ Here in Virginia, Gov. McDonnell has veered away from the user-pays principle, trying to pay for road improvements by means of anything but user fees. But conceptually, switching to a user fee basis of paying for roads/highways is easy, even if the political will is lacking. The end result may be that roads will cost more than people would like, or roads will be more congested than they want, or more people will be driven to buses, vans, carpools, but the basic principle of people paying their location-variable costs would be maintained.

“By contrast, there is no way to get people to pay the location-variable costs of using heavy rail. The best you can hope for in places like Tysons Corner is to reduce the subsidies by introducing more functional human settlement patterns. (There may be niche cases where rail can be made profitable, but I doubt we can build an entire transportation system around them.)

[The Hong Kong heavy rail shared vehicle system is a money making proposition – at least it was when the Brits walked away, not telling what it is with Chinese accounting – but that does not solve the problem for most large Urban agglomerations.]

“Bottom line: I say we have to reform human settlement patterns, make people pay their location-variable costs, and then let the market decide. I am a transportation mode agnostic. I don’t see how subsidizing heavy rail is any more virtuous than subsidizing roads and highways. If I’m wrong about the economics of heavy rail, if someone can figure out how to make heavy rail pay (without offloading all the risk to the taxpayer), then I’m all for it. If I’m right, then I guess we’re stuck with cars and shared-vehicle systems (buses, vans, carpools) that can run on road/highway infrastructure as our alternatives.”

[As one can see there are some small quibbles but EMR is 99 percent on board. One other quibble below.]

BACON IS 99 PERCENT RIGHT ABOUT HIS 10 PERCENT RESERVATION

To be specific Bacon says “buses, light rail, heavy rail and high-speed intercity rail” are NOT THE ANSWER.

That does not mean that Large, Private Vehicles and roadways ARE the answer, only that there must be an alternative. A fair allocation of costs is a place to start as Bacon suggest, BUT…

The fact that there must be an alternative is EXACTLY what EMR demonstrates in WHAT COMES AFTER THE CAR (Forthcoming,)

The topic could be left there but will take it a step further:

The REASON that “buses, light rail, heavy rail and high-speed intercity rail” are NOT THE ANSWER is that each example of each mode has a native sweet spot on The Cost of Services Curve for STATION AREA land use patterns and densities.

The proof of this settlement pattern axiom can be found in moderate scale Urban agglomerations such as Goteborg, Sweden and Freiburg, Germany where light rail matches the settlement pattern for most of the Urban fabric. Goteborg is the best example because the Urban agglomeration has grown up around a light rail armature.

However, No large Urban agglomeration is uniform and so one size cannot fit all. And, none of the candidates that Bacon lists achieve optimum Mobility and Access at rational cost for the variety of settlement patterns at the Cluster, Neighborhood, Village and Community scales that are economically viable AND ecologically sustainable where the vast majority of Urban citizens can be happy and safe.

The Large Urban agglomeration with the best Mobility and Access FOR THE LARGEST PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION, especially those who cannot afford a LARGE, PRIVATE VEHICLE (Stockholm, London, Paris, Toronto, Vancouver, Berlin, Wien, and others) employ a variety of different shared vehicle systems. But none achieve optimum Mobility and Access at rational cost for the full spectrum of settlement pattern alternatives that are economically viable AND ecologically sustainable where the vast majority of Urban citizens can be happy and safe.

ONE OTHER QUIBBLE.

Jim too often jumps to the conclusion that something that will cost a lot for Agencies to provide (aka, massive subsidies) is bad per se.

Not so.

Urban civilization is VERY expensive. Humans have been living on natural capital – not
just stored cheap energy but that is the big one.

If humans are to continue to enjoy civilization as it has evoked to date EVERYONE WILL HAVE TO PAY MUCH MORE:

HOUSEHOLDS,

AGENCIES,

ENTERPRISES,

INSTITUTIONS.

That does not take away form the fact that WHAT FOLLOWS THE AUTONOMOBILE will need to be flexible. The good thing is that on a seat-mile basis it will be far, far cheaper – but not free and not even cheap.

More in WHAT COMES AFTER THE CAR.

EMR


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Comments

47 responses to “INFRASTRUCTURE PART TWO POINT ONE”

  1. Some exceptionally interesting comments here of late.

    I have two perspectives to share (or blather depending on you view).

    The first is on the affordable and accessible settlement pattern and the second on Groveton's excellent commentary on chicken poop.

    I'd handle them on separate comments.

    I'm sure by now most who frequent BR have heard of the 3202 law that did not get repealed – namely the UDAs – Urban Development Areas which I'm sure EMR is tearing his hair out over.

    Simply stated – the law says that ANY county/jurisdiction that has a certain rate of growth and/or population threshold MUST designated specific areas that will entertain developer proposals for 4du and 8du / .4 far mixed use.

    These would be places where people can live, shop, play ad work.

    Except that in exurban areas – they won't work in the UDAs but instead commute to places like NoVa via I-95.

    Then we have this other problem which is why would someone commute from 50 miles from a NoVa job to a 4du/8du dwelling inside an exurban UDA when that kind of housing is also available in NoVa?

    The answer is that people commute to exurban jurisdictions – not to live in a 4du/8du development but instead in a conventional residential-only subdivision – some of them at 4du but not mixed use – i.e. instead cul-de-sacs and single family dwellings with front and back yards – the kind of housing they cannot afford in the NoVa region.

    That's what is driving the commute and these folks would be just fine with VRE as I-95 as long as both do not cost more than what they pay in gas taxes right now.

    My view is that anyone who wants to find a better path to more functional settlement patterns – has to confront this reality.

    People who want a Single family home and cannot afford one in NoVa – are going to commute to the exurbs.

    They are not going to commute to the exurbs to live in UDAs.

    The govt doesn't seem to recognize this but developers very much do – they KNOW their market.

  2. Groveton has an incisive comment about the location specific costs associated with chicken poop and I wanted to add to that thought.

    A great deal of effort and money is expended on the removal of nitrogen and phosphorous from the sewage of NoVa.

    Has anyone thought what happens to the nitrogen and phosphorous that is extracted at NoVa water treatment plants?

    What happens to the nitrogen and phosphorous that comes in part from eating those chickens?

  3. Yeah, well. In the mean time, it is what it is and we are where we are at. None of emir's fanciful descriptions change the facts, and nothing will change until we raise the money to make it change.

  4. Across this country in virtually every one of the 100+ urban areas – it's the same problem.

    Some people want to live in a residential single family dwelling subdivision and the cost of it is beyond them in the urban area.

    You'd have to be rich like Groveton to be able to afford to live in subdivisions in places like NoVa.

    I recently saw a home that would sell for 100K in the Fredericksburg Area go for over 300K in NoVa.

    A 300K house in the Fredericksburg Area is literally 3 times the house the same money can buy in NoVa.

    As long as there is an interstate highway that connects NoVa to Fredericksburg, you're going to have a heck of a time convincing people who can live in a 2500 square foot home in Fredericksburg to live in a 900 square foot condo/apartment in NoVa ( or virtually any urban area in the U.S.).

    If anyone really want to advocate for more functional settlement patterns that pay their fair share of location specific costs – they have to recognize and accept this reality as the challenge.

    Commuter rail in the Fredericksburg area has to subsidize the rider to the tune of $20 one way.

    Think about what it would cost the average solo car driver to commute one way to their 2500 square foot home or 1/3 what it would cost in NoVa.

    It's no contest.

    The biggest penalty is the commute itself – not the money.

    yet…..

    HOT Lanes might change that… and it looks like we're going to find out …how…

  5. Usually sewage sludge or products made from it gets applied to the land. It is used at the white house, which is how the garden got contaminated.

    When it is applied to farmland, the farmer gets paid a tidy sum for accepting it, but cannot grow food crops on it for one or two years.

    A few years ago, a big land sale was preceded by logging the property and loading it with sludge, to maximize income.

  6. what happens to the sludge that is spread on farm fields?

  7. Some of it is used by plants, some is stabilized by microorganisms, some binds to the soil, and some runs off.

    And of course sewage sludge also has soil in it, along with petroleum products, antifreeze, all kinds of metabolites, pesticides, heavy metal, body parts and anything else that gets in the storm drains.

    I think it is called the nitrogen cycle.

    You can bet the urban areas are not going to consume their own sewage sludge. Fair allocation of location variable cost.

  8. my understanding is that as much as 80% of it is carried back to the rivers …. when it rains…or goes into the ground water aquifers.

    Only about 20% gets taken up by plants and that assumes they are the right kind of plants and alive in the seasons that it would normally be.

    But sludge is spread 360 days a year whether plants are growing on not…

    Could it be that most of the nitrogen and phosphorous that is being removed by sewage treatment plants … finds it way back into the rivers and Chesapeake Bay ?

    how would we know?

  9. Nothing that happens adjacent to the metro stations will ever make metro self supporting. It is going to need, as emr concedes, large subsidies of various kinds to supplier all the goods and services an urban civilization needs.

    So much for paying location variable costs.

  10. The future of mobility and access requires that urban trips be very short.

    In other words, no mobility.

    And, being short, that also limits access.

    So, according to emir's self contradicting sentence, boiled down to its true meaning is this: the way you have affordable urban mobility and access, is do without.

  11. What alternatives are on the table? Autos and trucks account for 95% + of all travel and transportation. There is no alternative.

    We can augment a little at the margins, but that's all we can do.

  12. " affordable urban mobility and access, is do without."

    well no….

    electricity has to be highly mobile for urban areas to function…

    as does all the food and drugs and water/sewage.

    urban areas need a lOT of mobility.

    The regional trauma centers REQUIRE a high degree of mobility.

    your blood test has to be mobile to get to the lab to test it.

    urban areas cannot exist without high level of mobility for all the goods and services that they require to prosper.

    How many urban areas could exist without an international airport or a produce market that brings in the fresh produce that urban dwellers need?

    You say you don't need no stinkin bananas, coffee, tea, and olives and wines… that those things are for the local yokels in the hinterlands?

  13. Larry is correct, but he should have started with ends quote instead of mine. EMR seems to think all those trips will be within walking or biking distance.

  14. Emr thinks the high prices prove that people want to live in the central areas. Larry thinks it does nt matter what they want if they can't afford it.

    I think people make rational choices between the cost of commuting plus housing in various locations. But, I was twenty-three when I bought my house with land in Alexandria. One can afford what they really want. The house I bought was a wreck, but I knew I could fix it. And it was a mile to my office.

    Which I drove to in a car. Because I needed mobility for my job.

    Later I built another house, but had I waited a little longer I would have been prohibited. That house is now valued at several times the figure Larry mentioned, but all that wealth might have vanished with the stroke of a pen, FOR NO REAL REASON. My brother lost two houses, FOR NO REASON.

    Other than other people decided to raise their own value by limiting supply.

    Which naturally drove people away, to the exurbs.

    Now we are about to change the rules again. We are going to make transportation difficult and expensive, again to drive up home prices. Homes are not expensive. The one I built cost less than $100k. In Alexandria. Its worth a lot more now, thanks to all the people who screwed over people like my brother.

    Except for the lucky ones, who slammed the door behind them, people will be worse off for this, and many will simply go elsewhere.

    But with more than 3000 jurisdictions with some kind of growth control, where will it be?

    I might have stayed home in masschusetts and bought from my brother, but that place never was allowed to happen. Too bad, there was NO REASON for it.

    So I moved to Alexandria and built. Which freaked someone out enough to get the rules changed.

    So the next Guy in my shoes, might have wanted to stay in Alexandria, except that place wasn't allowed to happen, either, so he wound up in Stafford.

    Now we will put up tolls to make it hard for him there.

    IDIOCY.

  15. Larry, I don't believe 80% runs off. Not all at once, anyway. Maybe ultimately, but ultimately all of it will recycle anyway.

    Turf farms use a thing called a terragator to inject the sludge below ground. Other methods are used to keep the nitrogen available to plants. Which get eaten and wind up back in the treatment plant.

  16. I don't think what happened to you or your brother explains the general tendency for land to be far more expensive in Urban Areas and thus making single-family subdivision homes more expensive.

    There is a limited and finite availability of land in urban areas.

    If you fly over NoVa – there is very little large parcels of land available for single-family subdivisions.

    If you fly over a place like Fredericksubrg – there are still trees as far as the eye can see and land prices reflect that.

    In most places in and around Fredericksburg – a building lot can be easily found to purchase and it is quite often less than 1/3 the ultimate cost of the land+home on it.

  17. The literature that I have read is that as much as 80% of the nitrogen and phosphorous is NOT taken up by vegetation and that is especially true on winter fields.

    But how would we know for sure unless we start to measure this?

    A 3-person home with a septic requires a 1000 square feet or more to "spread" the nitrogen and phosphorous …

    how many square feet per person do we use when we spread sewage sludge on a farm field?

    How many acres of farm field would you need to spread sewage sludge for the million people who live in Fairfax?

    More to the point – this sewage sludge is not spread on people's laws within the functional settlement pattern and requires instead – yet another location-specific "accommodation" much like the ones for electricity and chickens.

    Now some day – they're going to figure out how to use sewage sludge to generate electricity and recycle potable water and then the urban agglomerations will become less reliant on location-specific subsidies.

  18. Anonymous Avatar

    At least in the Greater Washington, D.C. area, the providers of shared vehicles are having significant financial problems. WMATA and local governments running bus lines. Part of that problem stems from the out-of-line wage and benefit packages paid by WMATA and some local governments.

    One potential solution to increase shared vehicle use would be to authorize private jitney service with little more than safety regulation. But that would threaten the drinkers at the public trough.

    TMT

  19. I realize that I get a bit spun-up on this subject so I'll try to tone it down…a bit..

    Teaching at-risk, disadvantaged kids, especially one's whose parents are either unable or unwilling to provide appropriate parental support….

    .. is VERY difficult (but NOT impossible) work that does require a specialized professional…who has specific knowledge and experience – and we won't get such a professional by paying entry level wages…..

    our public school system, as currently operated in many localities – actually assigns the most inexperienced .. direct from college entry-level teachers to teach at-risk kids….

    .. and, at the same time, assigns the most capable teachers to teach kids who are not at risk – sometimes as a perk for being a good teacher – to get a "good" class.

    I'm not in favor of having dumbed-down, stripped down curriculums that bore advanced kids to tears….

    that's wrong also….

    but our public schools are heavily influenced in terms of their programs and resources by well-off parents of kids who are, by definition, not at risk.

    But, as a society, we must recognize that at-risk kids are innocent human beings that deserve a chance at life and an education is for many.. their first and last chance to escape their parents plight …

    If we want to have programs that allow sending kids to non-public schools on taxpayer dollars…

    that "works" for at-risk kids, then those schools should be

    * – certified in terms of the experience and knowledge professionals with demonstrated success at dealing with at-risk kids.

    * – at the School level – certified in their results – that demonstrate that they can and do succeed at teaching at-risk kids as a group.

    If we are going to advocate the use of tax dollars to support non-public schools without these specific provisions for at-risk kids…

    then I question what we are trying to achieve with such programs…

    and whether or not.. they really have anything at all to do with offering true alternatives to at-risk kids.

    Gov Kaine – and folks in his administration are zeroed in on this concept.. that's why they're willing to shift resources from general revenues for public schools in general – to early-intervention at-risk programs.

    What I think I hear sometimes – but sometimes couched in careful language is that the problem we have is too big for us to solve… and we really are wasting resources trying to rescue kids that cannot be rescued.

    it might be true.. but I'm one that won't accept it until we have tried harder… and it's not a black/white proposition.. it's about numbers.

    We cannot afford to have 25% of our kids not graduate from school.

    If we are doing something wrong, we need to fix it.. not walk away from it.

  20. oops…. blogger is going berserk again….

    what I posted said that the Federal trust fund from the Federal Gas tax is broke and for the last 2 years, stopgap funding for transit has been provided via the general fund and there is some serious thoughts in Congress to stop the general revenue funding.

  21. "If we want to have programs that allow sending kids to non-public schools on taxpayer dollars…"

    Kinda like private nursing homes for young people?

    Or Ukanduit U, where Mayor Joe Scumsucker's brother in law is the Principal/Owner?

    Or are you expecting these kids to attend a real private school where the locality's upper crust cherubs will passionately intermingle with the unwashed?

    Have you ever heard the term Privatize Profits, Socialize Losses?

    Sending loser kids to private school at taxpayer expense is the epitome of that concept. The problem with public schools aren't the schools. It's the attitude of those inside.

  22. well.. we pay on average 10K a year and over 100K per student graduate to provide a workforce that cannot compete in the 21st century global world.

    something is wrong.

    because the other 29 countries that clean our clocks on education all save one spend less than we do – some of them substantially less.

    We have 3 million jobs right now today that cannot be filled by Americans and will have to be filled by better-educated immigrants.

    Our "idea' of "competition" is College and Pro Sports… isn't that a kick?

    All we want is a good lifetime career job that we can count on to earn enough money for a house and a car and college for the kids and God Forbid we actually have to compete against other world-wide workers to do that.

    We have, as a nation, LITERALLY and figuratively become FAT & LAZY.

  23. Well if all these other countries are so good, why don't we just outsource the schools?

    Contract with foreign companies to import staff for our crap schools.

    As part of a world class education paid for at taxpayer expense, the successful students also get a bonus summer vacation in the host country to develop a positive worldview. Sure beats a guided tour of the county lock up or a neglected city park.

  24. Darrell – because the problem is us.

    The parents do not want their kids to get bad grades so they steer them away from the tougher courses and they go after teachers who give math word problems on tests and homework.

    Non-college track kids who graduate from schools overseas have superior skills in math and science literacy – the kind of education that is keyed to understanding the technologies of the 21st century – those 3 million jobs that cannot be filled…

    No one wants their kid to get a "D' or an "F" in Calculus II because they could not do the word problems so the whole goal of Calculus these days is to learn how to manipulate the equations without once realizing how these equations relate to real world problems.

    We do have kids that learn. You'll find them at places like UVA and Va Tech getting A's and B'c in Electrical Engineering but for every one of them we have hundreds that are taking "art appreciation" and World History and hope to use their degree to get an entry level job at some company that really does not expect them to use the knowledge they gained in college.

    The other kids who "make it" in our country are the ones lucky enough for their parents to put them on an MBA business degree path….

    The rest.. are basically looking for some company to take care of them…. like school and mom & dad did….

  25. At least in the Greater Washington, D.C. area, the providers of shared vehicles are having significant financial problems. WMATA and local governments running bus lines. Part of that problem stems from the out-of-line wage and benefit packages paid by WMATA and some local governments.

    One potential solution to increase shared vehicle use would be to authorize private jitney service with little more than safety regulation. But that would threaten the drinkers at the public trough.

    TMT

    ===================================

    Yep.

    I suggested Jitneys here what, ten years ago? But Jitneys threaten taxis as much as they threaten the public bus services.

    Winston and Shirley go to great lengths to show that the type of ownership and governance make a huge difference in transit costs, with the most expensive systems being arranged so that politicians can use them as patronage slots.

  26. Interesting how both METRO an the taxicab folks are protecting their interests and in the process standing in the way of my cost-effective solutions.

    It you allow jitneys AND you allow jitneys to broadcast real time location and route info and to be dispatched by people sending their location and destination via cell phone… such as system could integrate with cabs and metro to provide a seamless capability to go from point A to point B.

    There would be but one "central" dispatch and it would automatically via computer take each incoming location and destination request… figure out what is available including mode transfers and send it back to the requester for a time-of-pickup and approval.

    So.. a guy in downtown Fort Belvoir with suitcase in hand could book a multi-modal trip via a Jitney that would then take him to Metro to the end of the line at Tysons where a limo or cab would get him to the airport.

    or it could offer him a cab trip to a zip car that he would then take the airport.

    At the airport – the Zip Car would self-announce it's new location and availability.. to be dispatched.

    Imagine that – no more Hertz Hassle!

  27. Yep, pretty close to my vision exactly.

    And, pay attention EMR, all those shared vehicles with the exception of the train, are privately owned.

  28. My understanding is that it has been determined that the Pentagon should pay for the transportation infrastructure to support the BRAC changes in the Wash Metro Area.

    The question is – are they going to pay for Mass Transit or Private Auto infrastructure?

  29. It is my understanding that some people have claimed the Pentagon should pay, not that it has been either determined or agreed to.

    This may be a case of carefule what you wish for: you might get it.

  30. I heard more parking, a ramp from 395 directly to MARK center parking, some road widening.

  31. Interesting post on Freakonomics about why auto traffic is apparently declining.

    Answers go from more bike and transit use (not enough to make a dent).

    Slower Economy
    Older drivers
    Internet purchasing and telework

    More one-top bys all maegastores and malls means less trips to the store.

    More strip malls means more access closer to home.

    More people moving to cities.

    Sunday driving and weekend "cruising" no longer socially acceptable.

    Expense of driving, etc. etc etc.

    In short, many reasons and not that much of a drop.

    ================================
    Also, legislator in MD has proposed a 10 cent increase in the gas tax and a 50% increase in rgistration fees.

  32. wonder what HOT lanes would do?

  33. Arlington figured out that people would go someplace else. Either to another city or to the side streets adjacent to the hot lanes.

    Hot lanes and tolls are merely a way to tax some people and not others. I contend it is a violation of the Va constitution to levy taxes that are designed to be unfair.

    You live in Roanoake you drive anywhere you want for free, You live in Nova, you pay to drive.

    So, OK, it is not really free, but the basis of payment is the same. You want to have uniform tolls everywhere and pay by them mile?

    Fine. But that is a stupid, expensive, way to collect money, which pays no attention to weight or horsepower.

  34. Well.. I think we're within 18 months of find out how HOT "works" although the ICC will open a section next month.

    But even given your opposition – what do you think will be the impact of HOT on driving?

    do you think it will continue to reduce it?

  35. Water is basic to life. It is a precious resource and has become precious commodity now. On going Industrialization, population & urbanization pose pressure on water availability….

  36. Driving will continue to increase everywhere else, it will just increase less in the HOT lanes.

    HOT lanes will decrease the use of Carpools and increase traffiv on local streets.

    HOT lanes themselves will allow more lanes of traffic, and more cars will use them.

    Even in remote passes in the Himalyas there will be "more driving" even if it is motorized yaks.

    HOT lanes will collect money in some areas and not in others, and they are inherently unfair. Even congestion is preferable because it is at least egalitarian: don't confuse HOT lanes with any kind of "free market" situation. Whether it is HOT lanes or congestion, the end result is the same: people will go someplace else.

  37. Unfortunately, the definition of whther HOT "works" is going to be, "Does it make money for the contractors?"

    As long as that is the case, HOT works, no matter how bad it screws over the people or the region.

  38. Anonymous Avatar

    "
    Drivers of electric vehicles in Washington state won't be paying gas taxes, so the state wants some of the lost money back by means of an annual $100 fee.

    Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/02/08/Wash-considers-extra-fee-on-electric-cars/UPI-83951297208804/#ixzz1DVG5hh6S"

    TMT

  39. that same driver in Virginia would pay about $100 in taxes – those would be 1986 dollars.

    Virginians have unambiguously ,consistently and overwhelmingly voiced opposition to increasing the gas tax and as a result the state was left with debt financing to be paid back with tolls and obscure taxes on real estate transactions and auto insurance which if you think about it – are also appropriate but virtually off the radar of the anti-gas-tax folks.

    As far as all electric cars go, the batteries just are not ready for prime time functionally or financially.

    The battery on the Chevy Volt costs 10,0000 and the govt – rather than putting taxes on them to make up for the lack of fuel tax – are giving credits on them.

    I do't know about Washington State but many states also give credits for electric cars and it would be ironic if Washington also did that.

    oops –

    " Washington electric car purchases are exempt from state sales tax"

    so basically the $100 fee just recaptures some of the sales tax.

  40. so the state wants some of the lost money back by means of an annual $100 fee.

    ==================================

    Regulatory schizophrenia. youwant less polluton, or not?

  41. Re Himalyas.

    Bhutan has embarked on a national campaign to provide roads. The goal being to make it easier to live in the countryside, so more people will do so and not move to the cities.

    By all accounts the new roads have made it easier for villagers to trade more stuff to and from farther away, making their lives easier and richer.

  42. well you won't get less pollution from plug-in electric cars if the "fuel" comes from burning coal.

    You're just trading one kind of fossil-fuel pollution for another and calling it "green".

  43. well you won't get less pollution from plug-in electric cars if the "fuel" comes from burning coal.

    =================================

    Not sure we can say that. the clean up technology at the coal plane may be better thatn the mobil cleanup technology we put on our cars.

    Coal plants put out a lot of pollution, but the pollution per car might be smaller than what each car emits now.

  44. not according to most studies right now.

    The only way the battery plug-in car comes out ahead is in the electricity it uses to recharge comes from non-coal generation sources.

    Plug-in cars are not nearly as "green" as some perceive them to be.

  45. I haven't seen that. You got a citation from someone that doesn't start with hating coal?

  46. there are a variety. Here's an older one but it's still accurate:

    " For a plug-in owner in California, where most electricity on the grid is generated by low-pollution facilities, driving a PHEV might cut emissions of carbon dioxide by one-third compared with driving a regular hybrid.

    But if the same PHEV were charged in the Midwest, where coal-fired power plants supply the electricity, reduction of CO2 emissions would be nil. Nitrous-oxide emissions (which form smog) would fall slightly, but sulfur-dioxide emissions (which contribute to acid rain) would quadruple.

    Still, environmental gains are possible.

    Plug-ins would chop CO2 emissions by 15 percent on a national average, compared with conventional hybrid cars, the ACEEE report found. At the same time, the plug-in would emit 157 percent more sulfur-dioxide pollution. The need, plug-in proponents say, is for policies that would clean up the electricity grid so that PHEV technology supplies cleaner skies along with energy independence."

    http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0925/p03s02-usgn.html

    this one also:

    http://www.aceee.org/sites/default/files/publications/researchreports/t061.pdf page 13

    bottom line – we get less lower emissions of one kind but in increase in NOx, acid rain and mercury.

    what is clear though is that electricity is cheaper than gasoline and if the battery did not cost 10K the technology would probably catch on.

    so.. what you save in fuel costs – you pay for in battery – and SOx, acid rain and mercury pollution.

    I don't think Plug-ins are going to catch on until batteries drop in price sufficient that a plug-in is cheaper to operate than a conventional high MPG ICE engine.

    Now the really interesting thing is that PHEVs are pretty much ideal for cities in terms of pollution but also a clear example of not paying for your location-specific impacts.

  47. Iteresting article on the 5 myths of suburbs this weekend. They are expensive to build, but that is because of all new stuff, cities ae still more expensive to maintain, and we can expect the suburbs to densify over time, naturally, So cheer up, EMR.

    The article notes that taxes are higher in sprawling Atlanta than in Growth controlled Portland, but what it doesn't say is that Atlanta is far more affordable.

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