Bacon's Rebellion

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Infographic of the Day: Cost of Nonresident Students

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by

James A. Bacon
in

Source: State Council for Higher Education in Virginia, July Agenda Book
Source: State Council for Higher Education in Virginia, July Agenda Book

The 2004 Appropriation Act allows the boards of visitors of public Virginia universities to set tuition and fee charges for out-of-state students at levels based on competitive market rates, provided that “the tuition and mandatory educational and general fee rates … cover at least 100 percent of the average cost of their education.”

Based on published fees and projected enrollment, SCHEV has calculated that every institution will charge tuition & fees above the average cost of education this year.

Bacon’s bottom line: In theory, out-of-state students are money makers for Virginia universities, which charge them significantly higher nominal tuition and fees than what in-state students pay. I say “nominal” because out-of-state students don’t necessarily pay the full freight any more than in-state students do. Indeed, it is readily apparent from comparing this chart to the nominal out-of-state tuition and fees that universities provide significant discounts and/or financial aid to attract the out-of-state students they want.

Thus, to cite an institution that has been in the news lately, the University of Virginia charges undergraduate students admitted to the College of Arts & Sciences this year nominal tuition and fees of $45,066 dollars if they are out-of-state. But, according to the SCHEV chart, average tuition amounts to only $35,385. (Complicating the comparison is the fact that the latter number reflects average cost of both graduates and undergraduates, and also includes upper class students whose fees have been frozen while incoming students were jacked up 10%. Still, those factors don’t account for a nearly $10,000 discount.)

To take a simpler example, George Mason University charges nominal out-of-state tuition and fees of $32,392. But according to the SCHEV numbers, the actual tuition is $29,426 — a difference of almost $3,000.

Nevertheless, it is clear that out-of-state students subsidize in-state students. To pick UVa again, the average per-student cost is $24,429 but the actual in-state tuition charged is only $14,476. It’s tempting to complain about UVa admitting too many out-of-state students, but the sky-high tuitions they pay help hold down the cost for Virginia students. On the other hand, given the large number of out-of-staters that apply to Virginia, one can legitimately ask whether it is necessary to provide such a large discount.

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31 responses to “Infographic of the Day: Cost of Nonresident Students”

  1. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    it’s still pretty amusing that Sullivan was canned for not having a strategic vision then when she did – she was accused of having a strategic plan instead of making tuition cheaper.

    like danged if you do and danged if you don’t.

    it’s also clear – even if folks won’t admit it – that UVA has actually been successful as presenting itself as a premier institution that people out of state are willing to pay a substantial premium for to attend.

    UVA wants to take this to the next step and we have others in Virginia who say ” No, no.. you’re supposed to be providing a top notch Nationally-recognized degree to middle class Virginians for cheap”!!!!

    and… we’re gonna get the Clown Show in Richmond to “force” you to provide an “affordable” education for Middle Class Virginia!!

    this is so amusing on so many levels..

    People who work full time and cannot get health insurance and the state refuses to help… and much less afford even low-end college for their own kids – are supposed to have their taxes subsidize Middle Class kids to go to UVA…

  2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Jim Bacon says :

    “Nevertheless, it is clear that out-of-state students subsidize in-state students. To pick UVa again, the average per-student cost is $24,429 but the actual in-state tuition charged is only $14,476. … On the other hand, given the large number of out-of-staters that apply to Virginia, one can legitimately ask whether it is necessary to provide such a large discount.”

    UVa does not have to give the discounts to fill up its slots of state students. But UVa does give discounts in order to attract out of state students whose SAT and other scores will increase its national rankings and thus blow up its imagine vis a vis its peers.

    Meanwhile the Virginia taxpayers pick up the cost of these bragging rights. They pay for the discounts unnecessarily given out of state students either by way of lost revenues or outright state subsidies, whether they be merit scholarships and/or grants. This is one of many ways that Virginia taxpayers pick up the tab to inflate UVA’s rankings.

    Once upon a time many people, including serious educators, questioned whether, how, and when rankings made any significant difference in the quality of the education their students received in the classroom. Those times are apparently long past. The race is on among universities to gain a few slots on their competitors in the rankings, however speculative the standards of measurement. So today’s race is run at a torrid and highly costly pace. The winners are the all-star faculty and administrators whose salaries are sky-rocketing on an upward trend like college coaches salaries took off a few decades ago.

    1. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      Reed, what I don’t know is how UVa dispenses its tuition breaks to out-of-state students. I’m guessing that it follows roughly the same formula as for in-state students — the biggest breaks for students from low- and working-class families. I’m guessing that the goal is to bring down the cost of tuition & fees for out-of-state kids who couldn’t afford to attend otherwise. I’m also guessing that a very high percentage of those are minority students.

      1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        As best I can tell you are guessing wrong.

        UVA major thrust and concern now is getting the highest quality of student possible. UVA’s definition of student quality matches that the rating magazines, the standards those Magazines like USN&W Report use to determine the exclusivity of the student body – the harder it is to get into the school based to objective test numbers, the better the rating. Hence the discount. Hence the merit scholarships.

        Most valued and discounted for is the elite student, with elite scores that qualities that applicant for that highest number of top schools. The ones every top school wants. That student is the most sought after by UVA – so gets the biggest discount, and the State taxpayer often foots the bill.

        Hence this stated goal –

        “The best and brightest Virginians would still have special access to UVA … (but now) the tremendous benefits associated with attracting outstanding students from around the world would accrue to the Commonwealth and University.

        4. Insure access and provide opportunity
        … University leaders (also) need to develop a plan that addresses all the important goals associated with financial aid, ensuring access and competitiveness for the best students, Va residents and non-residents alike. The BOV should be directly involved in the review and approval of this plan as it will be an essential component of the overall four-year financial plan and a key (to) promoting a high-quality and diverse educational experience for whole student population, and include AccessUVA. The (state) could also allocate additional funds for financial aid for qualified Virginia residents in addition to the tuition “discount” discussed above, (and so dedicate state) funding to ensure access for students consistent with current state goals and programs. For example, additional state aid for Virginia students in STEM disciplines that may contribute to the states economic development goals … (Thus State and UVA) could work together to achieve common goals under the new contract.

        See my comment dev.baconsrebellion.com/2016/08/strategic-investment-funds-not-just-for-uva-anymore Comment made 6:50 pm Aug. 17

        Hence also the existing State funded merit scholarship program for out of state students.

        1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
          Reed Fawell 3rd

          “… the $67 million a year spend on financial awards to out-of-state students. With 21,000 applications for 1,200 out-of-state, first-year spots, subsidies are unnecessary.”

          For details see: dev.baconsrebellion.com/2016/08/how-to-cut-uva-tuition-75-without-really-trying

          Also note the claim in same article that:

          “Control construction costs. “Excessive costs of almost $1,000 per square foot for a medical center waiting room and $425 per square foot for a maintenance building help explain why cash flow from depreciation has fed the surpluses over time.”

          As explained in earlier posts on this website: Such construction costs for such items imply fraud, breach of fiduciary duty, and/or gross negligence.

          For example, Arlington County’s $Million bill for building a single bus stop almost surely was devised to collect payments for purposes, projects, and/or short falls quite different from the County Bus Stop in question, and the trick used to disguise the true purpose of that payment was to charge for unnecessary and bogus supervision fees. This was done by the operating entity that had operating short falls elsewhere having nothing whatsoever to do with the construction of the bus stop.

          Such bills and costs occurred by UVA for capital improvements and other outlays scream for audit by independent authorities.

  3. Cville Resident Avatar
    Cville Resident

    Here’s an interesting graphic. Scroll down to the map of Virginia and you can see where U.Va.’s entering class comes from (both in-state and out-of-state):

    http://digital.uvamagazine.org/articles/2020-insight/?utm_source=lead&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=august-enews-16

    990 (40%) of 2475 in-state students come from: Fairfax, Loudoun, Arlington and Alexandria. Those 4 jurisdictions make up 23% of the state’s population.

    Again….all of this talk about U.Va. and “middle class” Virginians is highly misleading. The Virginian taxpayer is subsidizing largely upper middle and upper class Virginians to let their kids go to U.Va. and William and Mary. This blog usually rants about gov’t subsidies for the middle and upper classes. There probably isn’t a bigger subsidy for the upper middle and upper classes in Virginia than in-state tuition at U.Va. and W&M.

    The solution is to privatize U.Va. and William and Mary if you believe in “market-oriented” public policy. Surely those institutions and the parents who send their children to them could live without government subsidies.

    1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      All true what you say. The Virginia taxpayer is getting hosed worst of all. Applicants are chosen on their test scores and ability to pay given that is UVA’s mission. And now it is fiercely intent on maximizing Tuition revenue anyway it can. It had too since it is diverting such incredible sums of money into its highly risky plunge into trying to be a world class STEM research institution for which it is plainly ill suited.

      This quest means all Virginia student are forced to pay more. If UVA gets its way in the future there will be fewer and fewer UVA students who will get selected to attend UVA. That is a central tenant of their plan despite what they say publicly.

      I studied those charts carefully the day the came out. They are fascinating. For example, the Verbal scores at UVa appear to have declined since my days there in the 1960s. They match what I recall as an out of stater, despite the big across the board SAT inflation of scores instituted a decade or two ago.

    2. DonR Avatar
      DonR

      CR:

      You need to re-examine the demographics of Northern Virginia. Your claim that the dis-proportionate percentage of students arriving from Loudoun, Fairfax, Arlington and Alexandria come from upper and upper middle class homes is unfounded and statistically unlikely. The Weldon Cooper Institute has done excellent work in relating incomes to costs of living in Virginia.

      http://www.coopercenter.org/sites/default/files/publications/VirginiaPovertyMeasure_May2013_0.pdf

      One of the more interesting points is that the poverty rate in the area they call Fairfax, adjusted for costs of living, is the same as in Virginia Beach / Chesapeake and the Northern Neck and Eastern Shore. Meanwhile, inner-NoVa (which they call Beltway – including much of Arlington and Alexandria) has an adjusted poverty rate higher than the Richmond area.

      The cost of living differentials affect middle class incomes too. A family making $75,000 per year in Alexandria lives a far different life than that same family would live if they were able to make $75,000 per year in Danville.

      I also notice that you cherry picked the data. First, you used a set of localities that don’t really constitute a region. If you want to talk about Northern Virginia you would have had to include Prince William County. But you didn’t. Second, you missed Albemarle County. Albemarle has 1.3% of Virginia’s population but 4.8% of UVA’s entering class. In addition, the number of entering first year students accepted from Albemarle has risen from 43 in 2010 to 120 in 2016. This is not a one time aberration. The number of entering freshmen has risen every year from 2010 to 2016. From this cherry picked analysis I conclude that the faculty and administration of UVA is forcing the state to subsidize their friends and neighbors in Albenarle County.

      1. Cville Resident Avatar
        Cville Resident

        DonR,

        I was not making a financial argument about Loudoun. We’ve established the fact that any financial argument about the state and U.Va. is meaningless. The state contribution to the University’s overall budget is 5%. The state’s direct appropriation to the University is $150 million out of a $100 billion budget. That’s about .15% of the state’s budget. Again, meaningless. The state could cancel that appropriation tomorrow and U.Va. wouldn’t blink.

        But as I look at the historical data, it appears that over a 10 year period, those four localities (Fairfax, Arlington, Alexandria, and Loudoun) have had an extremely disproportionate amount of U.Va. in-state students compared to population. But again, if you don’t like the focus on NoVa, why don’t we look at other wealthy cities/counties like Albemarle, Henrico, VaBeach, York, and James City. Again, highly disproportionate numbers at U.Va. compared to their share of the state’s population. Which blows up so many of these arguments. This is not about helping those who can’t help themselves. Rather it’s the wealthy in the state bellyaching about not getting more than their already disproportionate share and wanting an even bigger government subsidy. Notice, I’m not exempting Albemarle. It’s a wealthy and well-educated county that almost always is in the top 3 of average SAT scores in the state with Fairfax and York. This is simply not about “middle class” parents and higher ed. This is about upper middle class and upper class parents getting a government subsidy.

        Look at page 3:

        https://avillage.web.virginia.edu/iaas/news/cirpnewsletter.pdf

        And it’s only grown since 2005…..But rather than statistics, I’ll give you a better indication. I know a restaurant proprietor on the Downtown Mall in Charlottesville. He’s been in the business for quite a while operating many different restaurants in town through the years. He told me that in 2000, you almost never saw a U.Va. student eating at the Downtown Mall unless it was with their parents. Now, during the school year, at least half of his customers are U.Va. students plopping thirty to forty bucks a meal. As someone who’s lived here a long time, I can tell you, the student demographic is much, much, much wealthier now than in the 80s and 90s. If you talk to any small businessman in the area, he’s gonna tell you stories of how much wealthier the kids are nowadays in terms of what they spend. It’s definitely the University of the Very Affluent.

        1. James A. Bacon Avatar
          James A. Bacon

          Cville, That’s a telling anecdote about the affluence of the students at UVa. I think you’re actually supporting my point. Soaring tuition & fees squeeze out all but the affluent/rich and those who qualify for boatloads of student aid. The middle is shrinking. I’d like more than anecdotal information to back up that assertion, but if I were a betting man, I’d lay odds that it is an accurate perception.

          1. Izzo Avatar
            Izzo

            Jim, the SCHEV site has information on the incomes of students that apply for and qualify for financial aid at UVA. About 33% of students qualify. Their median family income is nearly $95K a year. The median for all of Virginia is nearly $63K according to Wikipedia. This means the most needy third of UVA students have an average family income over 50% higher than the median family income in Virginia.

            Note that UVA is not unique among Virginia institutions in this regard.

          2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
            Reed Fawell 3rd

            Yes, Izzo – you are right.

            And you make a telling point.

            Always remember that UVA does not give financial aid to satisfy the needs of students. UVA gives financial aid to satisfy its own perceived needs for status and rankings as an elite institution, or rather as one that cares only about its being ranked as an elite institution, however faulty and full of baloney those rankings are in fact and in the daily practice of teaching students.

            Hence UVA’s efforts to find and lure through subsidy those students with just the right mix of SAT scores and financial backing and b/s diversity ratings so as to insure for UVA the best outcome from magazine college and university raters and their ratings.

            Also re UVA Today always remember this:

            Terry Sullivan is a genius at statistics, most particularly the statistics of a social demographer. She is a master technocrat who applies her green eye-shade skills to beating and coming out on top of the systems devised by other statisticians to rate universities nationwide. It’s a horribly mindless and stupid system ideally suited to her talents. One that is autonomously working every year to gut and destroy our institutions of higher education – ripping out their souls by the handfuls day after day now for decades, leaving in their wake only the dry husks and dead hands of mindless efficiency in places where learning and character and wisdom once were built.

          3. James A. Bacon Avatar
            James A. Bacon

            Izzo, I have the darnedest time finding data on the SCHEV website. Could you provide me a link to the financial aid data, or give me an idea of how to navigate to it? Thanks.

          4. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
            Reed Fawell 3rd

            Jim – I believe this is what you are looking for. It is referenced in an Izzo quote found at:

            dev.baconsrebellion.com/2016/08/foia-case-against-uva-tightens

            “The benefits of higher education, particularly the more elite institutions, primarily accrue to the individual. These benefits take the form of significantly higher average lifetime earnings. Only a fraction of the population attends these institutions.

            At UVA, a significant majority of students are middle class and higher. Only about 13% of students at UVA receive Pell Grants, a proxy for socioeconomic diversity. (See http://www.dailyprogress.com/news/report-uva-one-of-the-nation-s-least-socioeconomically-diverse/article_659d948c-b853-11e2-8727-0019bb30f31a.html ). You can see another view of this on the SCHEV site, where the median income of UVA undergraduate families that qualify for financial aid is nearly $95K versus $64K for the state family median income. Note that only 33% of families apply for and are shown to qualify for aid, so this roughly reflects the income of the most needy third of UVA students, and it is still significantly above the state median. ( http://research.schev.edu/ips/affordability_1.asp ).

            I would submit that it is fundamentally unfair to have all taxpayers subsidize a group of relatively high income people who receive the benefits. “

          5. Izzo Avatar
            Izzo

            Jim,

            I got the information from here on the SCHEV site:

            http://research.schev.edu/ips/affordability_1.asp

            You select the institution at the top and click Update.

        2. DonR Avatar
          DonR

          I’ll make it personal on two fronts. First, there have been years when companies I founded or invested in went public or were bought by bigger companies. In those years I paid over $100,000 in state income taxes (there is no lower capital gains rate for state taxes). While I don’t have the figures at hand I am sure that I am well into the millions of dollars in lifetime state taxes paid. Please help me understand how I am being subsidized for anything. If my kids get good enough grades and SAT scores to go to UVA and that’s where they want to go – I might get back a tiny fraction of the subsidy I have provided the Commonwealth of Virginia over the years. If a disproportionate percentage of the kids with the best grades and the best SAT scores come from affluent areas with good school districts then a disproportionate percentage of the entering first year students at UVA will come from those areas. It’s odd that you find that unfair. Second, I don’t know if the students are getting wealthier or are just more mollycoddled by their parents. If you’ve lived in Charlottesville a long time you’ll remember LaHacienda Restaurant, originally on Rt 29 across from UHall. That’s where I worked as a waiter to help put myself through college (I was also a research assistant, debugged computer programs at Gilmer Hall and mowed lawns and moved furniture for Student Services in the summer). Many of my classmates worked during the school year too. It wasn’t so much that their parents couldn’t afford the extremely low tuition back in the late 70s and early 80s. It was more that their parents thought they would take college more seriously if they had to pay part (or all) of their way through. You don’t hear much of that these days. When I go to Charlottesville the waiters, waitresses and bartenders all seem too old to be students. What a shame. I learned more about people by waiting tables than from any psychology course and my gig debugging computer programs turned into a 35 year (and counting) career.

          I know it’s become posh in recent years to criticize those who earn high salaries . I don’t have much time for posh. The mathematical reality is that it’s those upper middle and upper class people in the affluent areas who are paying the lion’s share of the taxes. Claiming that they are being subsidized by the state is pretty absurd, at least in aggregate. If you think wealthy people should pay higher taxes you should say that. However, ignoring the source of the state’s revenues while decrying your perception of an unfair subsidy is at least a little disingenuous.

          1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
            Reed Fawell 3rd

            Thanks for stepping up to the plate and knocking the ball out of the park. It is people with histories like yours, and there are stories like yours that can rightly be told by millions of Americans of all sorts and kinds, that make our society work, and that carry most everyone else along in this society that grows sicker by the hour, including not least, the great growing majority of pampered professional politicians and tenured professors in our elite colleges and universities, all of whom have not a clue as to what it takes to live, and to work hard, and to build things “on the outside” that make a difference, including communities and families that can succeed and thrive and/or struggle and refuse to give up, so as to get along and do the best they can outside the closed and stale little bubble of professors, and politicians, and growing numbers of crony capitalists who prey and feed off everyone else as they preen upon their own stage built for fools.

  4. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    it is a fascinating map… and yes – it’s the affluent counties that are sending kids to UVA.

    and yes.. all this talk about the free market, and paying your own way, all goes out the door when it comes to this.

    you know… this is sorta like the Feds and those govt jobs in the military… and NoVa and Hampton – except this is how Va spends tax money – on subsidizing the middle and upper class while those in the lower classes have to send their kids to Community College if they’re lucky.

    The last few months – on of the favorite words the right has been glomming on to – ELITES!

    Yes – one of the highest median income averages in the Country in the land of govt jobs – NoVa – getting subsidies to send their kids to UVA… and now whining they’re not getting “enough”…

    methinks doth protest too much!!!

    there is no real equal opportunity to UVA – the kids that get to go there

    I’ve got an idea – give the subsidies to the kids and the higher the GPA – the higher the subsidy.

    that subsidy will be enough to completely pay for college at some Colleges – with no additional money.

    Let UVA compete on cost and value and if someone wants the high dollar UVA spread – let them get their parents to help or get a job but no additional taxpayer subsidies.

    the folks who talk the most here in this blog about crony capitalism and entitlements and govt subsidies should be the first to admit that subsidizing UVA is no better than free govt goodies for the middle class.

  5. Cville Resident Avatar
    Cville Resident

    Amen, LarrytheG….I better not hear another word about “crony capitalism” or “elites” or “middle class subsidies” or any other free market blather from those that aren’t 100% in favor of privatizing U.Va. and W&M. There’s no bigger upper middle class subsidy in state gov’t than the mandated in-state tuition for those 2 schools.

    And let’s not forget Ramadan’s fables…he represented Loudoun (the wealthiest county in America). Loudoun has 220 (9%) of this year’s in-state U.Va. class. The county makes up less than 5% of the state’s population. This is nothing but upper middle class and upper class bellyaching.

    1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      Who is interested in class warfare, and classifying people. That’s prejudice.

    2. DonR Avatar
      DonR

      In 2000 Loudoun county had 169,000 people or about 3.5% of Virginia’s 2000 population. That year, UVA admitted 35 students from Loudoun. Assuming a reduced in-state admissions class of 2,000 students that is 1.75% of the student body.

      First point to CR and LarrytheG – A single admissions year means nothing. It is statistically insignificant.

      Second point to CR and LarrytheG – Alberarle County has a significantly more distorted admissions percentage vs population percentage profile than Loudoun. A single county means nothing. It is statistically insignificant.

      Third point to CR and LarrytheG – UVA provides a variety of grants and need based scholarships to in-state student. Unless you examine how those funds are allocated by county you have a financially irrelevant analysis.

      Fourth point to CR and LarrytheG – Let me suspend my disbelief about the inadequacy of your sample size. How much of Virginia’s tax base comes from the people of Loudoun County? You don’t know and either do I. However, given the fact that tax rates are not indexed to costs of living and Loudoun (unadjusted for costs of living has a median family income several times higher than the Virginia average I would not be surprised to find that the 5% of Virginia’s population who live in Loudoun contribute more than 10% of Virginia’s total tax base. By that assumption the people who pay 10% of the taxes still only get 9% of the entering slots. Therefore, they are still subsidizing others.

      1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        Actually, those who pay taxes in Virginia (the Va.’s higher income earners) are getting hosed several ways to Sunday by UVA policies.

        For example, they pay all state subsidies given over to UVA.

        They pay for all the waste and extravagance built into the $50 million splurge to build the historic Rotunda into a resort playground and entertainment center for bloated UVA academics and administrators and their invited consorts and guests.

        They also pay for all the cost of merit scholarships for out of State students needed desperately to increase UVA’s image.

        They also pay for all the Commonwealth’s share of the $2.3 billion (including all funds earned by “betting big” and risking loss on playing the markets with other peoples money) so as to increase the heist of Commonwealth monies used in the ongoing attempt to build a World Class research university from the ground up with other peoples money for the benefit of those run the University and for a playground venture for that growing group of academics who do not teach there, but earn ever more public monies to play with and waste there.

  6. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    re: class warfare – Au Contraire – we’re talking about hypocrisy

    Some of the same folks who “lean” libertarian and decry “subsidies” for transit, solar and even the cost to educate kids in K-12 wine incessantly about the need to subsidize an “affordable” education at UVA for folks whose median incomes exceed 100K .

    And the irony here is that the people who pay the taxes that provide those UVA subsidies themselves cannot even afford health care for their families because their jobs don’t provide it , much less able to send their own kids to college – even Community College.

    Those kids are largely on their own or have to take out loans that will cripple them financially for much of their adult life as the degrees they earn are not the same calibre of those subsidized UVA degrees.

    We need to stop subsidizing UVA directly The tax money should go to students to help them pay for a degree at the college of their choice – and such vouchers should include full-tuition at the more modestly priced institutions but could also be used towards UVA if they or their parents want to add to it.

    All this talk about govt goodies in BR, turning over K-12 to private schools with vouchers but none of that for UVA – just more taxpayer subsidies – and again – not for the kids of most modest income Virginians – but for folks who make twice or three times what the average Virginian makes and whose kids don’t have anything close to an equal opportunity at college.

  7. Cville Resident Avatar
    Cville Resident

    Reed,

    I note that the Commonwealth is running its 2nd shortfall in 3 years. It’s estimated to be 300 million dollars.

    Direct and indirect state aid to U.Va. and W&M is about 300 million dollars. Privatize them, and then you will not have a deficit.

    Those 2 schools could easily privatize and not skip a beat without state revenue. It just seems like common sense if you are a “fiscal conservative.” Though I recognize that the term is rather malleable in this day and age.

    You seem like a very thoughtful poster and I noticed some of your historical posts the other day. Have you read The Great Debate by Yuval Levin? Very good book on Anglo/American political philosophy.

    1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      “Have you read The Great Debate by Yuval Levin? Very good book on Anglo/American political philosophy.”

      Thanks for reminding me of that book. Yes, I have it on Kindle and have read parts of it, and should read that book through. Burke, and Burke versus Paine are among my favorite subjects. Many wonderful books out on Burke lately.

  8. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Cville Resident –

    I think you miss my point. I am a strong believer in research universities. Over the past four years I have devoted hundreds of hours working to help test, understand, and report on the performance levels of cutting edge products developed at research universities, and how to make those products better.

    My complaint here is not about research universities in general.

    My complaint here is about how public monies have been diverted (and I believe in practical affect stolen) from the education and tuition of Virginia students by a few administrators and senior faculty at UVA to feather their own nests, and to realize their own personal ambitions, without fair notice, hearing, and consent from those whose property has been diverted.

    And I believe that that great heist (and its enormous proceeds) will be used to reduce the number at Virginia students at UVA down to a tiny faction of its current levels. This is not just my opinion. All one needs to do is read the words of UVA administrators and senior faculty to see plainly where this train wreck is headed. UVA has next to Zero Chance to become a World Class Research University without the risk of great financial and educational loss to the people and the State of Virginia. We are seeing that happen today as we write here.

  9. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    and as long as you give the money from the State – direct to the University -they are going to figure out ways to use it the way they want to and that’s why the money should go to the people who will attend college and let them choose on value and what fills their needs.

    If tax dollars are going to be used for research – it should not be give as general funds for the school to decide – it should be done in the form of grants that specify the deliverable and performance goals.

    Folks who claim to be fiscal conservatives and point out the profligate habits of govt to throw money at things without requiring performance objectives then turn around and want gobs and and gobs of money “thrown” at the Universities to “do what we want”, then act shocked when the University Administration’s ideas of what is needed are not what the money-providers thought – well why?

    If you are truly a real fiscal conservative – you no more give unrestricted discretionary money to UVA than the man in the moon if you are serious about safeguarding the money

    And yet – that seems to be how this issue is playing out.

    I’ve not heard one self-proclaimed fiscal conservative here nor the GA folks writing “letters” – demand that State money be restricted to only specified purposes and NOT let UVA or any other recipient of state money – be able to spend it how they please, much less in ways the providers of that money would or should ever agree to.

    We get these conversations here … long and laborious that basically distill down to one simple thought: Bad Bad UVA.

    well heckfire… when are going to stop crying about this and actually do something about it – if that’s really the problem?

    I still think the money should go directly to students – not the Universities and all kids in Virginia – regardless of their income, as long as they are academically qualified – should get a voucher.

    It’s totally obscene that we have a system where tax dollars grease the skids for folks who make 100K in income but will not be enough to get the kid, academically qualified with no money – into college because his/her parents don’t have the up-front money.

    we need ALL KIDS in Virginia to be able to get a college education and we WANT – ALL KIDS in Virginia to KNOW that no matter how poor they are – that if they get good grades – that they ARE going to go to college.

    Until I hear that – my sympathy is not at all with the current UVA fru fru.

  10. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    In case anyone wonders how SCHEV derived these numbers, I get this explanation from Greg Weatherford, a SCHEV spokesman:

    That chart is calculated using the costs the state has a share of. To get these figures, the report’s authors took the institution’s full yearly allocation of E&G funds (classroom-related, basically) and divided it by the institution’s full enrollment.

    This gave the authors an “average” cost per student. They used this calculation rather than use sticker price since the costs vary so widely; many students don’t pay full sticker price due to various reductions in cost such as need-based waivers and scholarships.

    E&G funds are raised through tuition, state funds through the General Fund budget, and some (instruction-related) mandatory fees. Uses of E&G funds include salaries for faculty and administration, as well as operating costs related to instruction. They do NOT include such things as new construction and the costs to operate auxiliary functions such as recreation centers and residence halls.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Living where Mary Washington University is , I often pay attention to how they are faring financially at General Assembly time – and what I notice is that money for buildings is (as it should be) totally separate from the operating… and at some point – the news will report that some desired building got funded – or not… and I presume it works that way at UVA also.

      but did we ever get the question answered as to whether or not UVA is using state funds for their strategic fund?

  11. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    “They do NOT include such things as new construction and the costs to operate auxiliary functions such as recreation centers and residence halls.”

    So, according to the PR put out by UVA, the $50, 000,000,000 cost to restore the Rotunda should come out of E&G funds (classroom-related, basically). Which of course they do not, given that UVA’s PR regarding the use of the Rotunda is yet a another lie intended not to inform interested and donor parties, but to mislead them.

  12. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    the CONCEPT of the state funding higher ed at some fixed level – no matter what is going on with higher ed prices is nutty – as well as not fiscally sustainable – as well as fraught with abuse, mission creep, and actual malfeasance.

    arguing that we are falling behind on this kind of funding is … not very smart.

    this is precisely the argument against the MedicAid Expansion in Virginia – i.e. that we’ll end up committed to funding it even as it’s mission and expansion of services is not under our control.

    we should NOT be funding Carte Blanche whatever UVA decides is it’s “mission” nor any other higher ed in Virginia. It’s a dumb-headed idea. that “fails”.

    then we have this side argument going on which is “we’ll only keep adding more and more money to the funding pot if you do what we want you to do with your mission”.

    Like this is any kind of an agreement that has any hope of being adhered to now or in the future.

    Basically what this boils down to is – literally – throwing money at a problem – and ..hoping the people that spend it will do so according to how “supporters” would like to see it spent – in this case – to essentially buy down tuition costs … not really for all students across Virginia – no matter their income level – – but primarily for Middle Class…

    Only the cynical and misguided would agree that this is a good approach to improving access to higher ed for all Virginia kids but yet this seems to be what the shoving match is – between UVA and the folks concerned about how funds are spent or not.

    We have to change. This is becoming a fiscal monster that even if we try to starve it – won’t change the dynamics of UVA and higher ed – spending WHATEVER they get in the way they think best verses critics who want it spent differently with neither side really having the interest of ordinary Virginia’s needs for higher ed in mind. Each has their own agenda – and neither is really interested in how most Virginia kids fare in gaining a college education.

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