Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

Griffith lets the cat out of the bag

—

by

James A. Bacon
in

In his column “Raw Fisher,” Marc Fisher of the Washington Post reported yesterday that Del. Morgan Griffith “let down his hair while talking to the local chamber of commerce: The Republican legislator told the local crowd that the whole purpose of this transportation package is to make sure that rural roads get built and rural interests are protected before those urban folks up in northern Virginia take over the legislature and the state, which is a demographic inevitability.”

This should explain why the Republicans decided to change course and let NOVA and Hampton Roads tax themselves in order to build their own roads. This way the pressure is diverted and the legislators downstate don’t have to worry about taking funds from rural roads. What a compromise, eh?

Fisher continues: “What the Republicans in Richmond are publicly billing as a helping hand for northern Virginia is really a last-ditch attempt to maintain the power and money-allocating sway of rural areas that they know they’ll eventually lose to the D.C. and Hampton Roads regions.”

The column referenced in Fisher’s account comes from the Martinsville Bulletin, “Road Plan Debate Revs Up.”

Who would have thought that the legislators from rural Virginia have roped all the NOVA legislators to do their dirty laundry? While NOVA representatives, like Delegates Albo, Rust and Hugo have been touting the Transportation Compromise as solution for NOVA’s transportation gridlock, they are actually promoting the interests of rural districts.

The legislators representing rural Virginia must be having quite a laugh!

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50 responses to “Griffith lets the cat out of the bag”

  1. Freedom Works Avatar
    Freedom Works

    The only solution is to cut taxes at the state level, and increase fuel taxes and tolls at the local level.

    Adding time of day congestion adjusted tolls to every limited access roadway in Northern Virginia and dedicating 100% to Northern Virginia’s transportation infrastructure would solve the problem of a reliable dedicated funding source.

    Fuel taxes for general driving, and tolls to pay for peak capacity are the best market solutions to funding transportation.

    Increasing sales, income, or real estate taxes at the local level to fund transportation is really more of what the state is doing, only at the individual level. One group is being targeted to pay for the benefits to someone else. If I do not drive long distances to work, or do not drive in rush hour, I should not be forced to pay higher sales taxes to buy groceries or anything else.

  2. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Phil, You touch upon a key dynamic that has gone virtually unnoted throughout the transportation debate: the extent to which the debate is influenced by *regional* interests as opposed to partisan or philosophical ones.

    Fisher may well be right, this may be the last hoorah of Virginia’s rural legislators. One more census count and one more redistricting will shift power even more decisively in favor of urban areas generally and Northern Virginia specifically. It is just a matter of time before the transportation allocation formula, which favors rural areas, comes up for revision.

  3. nova_middle_man Avatar
    nova_middle_man

    ok enough flowery language from me Let me lay it all out Its all about regions AND party

    The Rs downstate dont want any taxes and were/are willing to have no transportation plan which makes sense there is no Transportation crisis in most of Virginia

    So these people said if you want to raise taxes tax yourselves we dont need it

    At this point NoVa and HR/TW and other urban metro areas should have banded together and called out their bluff by holding education or economic development or for that matter the whole stinking budget hostage.

    Of course this didn’t happen because in the more urban areas there is a split along party lines and the Ds and Rs can’t work together. Also the rural legislators still have a numbers advanatge until at least the next redistricting cycle.

    Now for the real ironic part as the more urban/suburban areas become increasingly D the appetite for taxes increases. These taxes are statewide which penalizes the very districts these urban and suburban Ds represent.

    As a NoVa HR/TW R, You know that staewide tax increases will not pass and additionally they penalize your area. You also know your constituents want somethnig done about Transportation. The only logical answer is to raise and keep the money in your area.

    As has been said before the ideal situation in NoVa at least is to forget about the state, generate revenue locally and keep the money locally.

  4. nova_middle_man Avatar
    nova_middle_man

    One last thing on the politics of all of this (feel the irony)

    The rural Rs are on the low tax side

    All of the Ds are on the high tax side and united to squeeze out the urban/suburban Rs

    (For best interests those view should be flipped) The only ones actually voting correclty are rural Ds

    There may be some hope. Remember 13 mostly suburban D delegates voted for the trasnportation compromise.

    Will these brave souls dare challenge the statewide tax increases Kaine will propose which are a net loss for their districts

    Is the math there for these 13 Ds to find enough suburban Repulicans and more suburban Democrats to stand with them against the anti-tax rural Rs and the tax me till I bleed urban hard core Ds.

  5. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    NMM is close.

    This is a lose lose for NOVA. With no bill they continue to send money down state. With a bill they continue to send money down state AND they get to tax themsleves more.

    Downstate benefits fromt the economic engine of the urban areas, and regardless what happens to the allocation of funds, they doan’t have enough money to offer much helpt to NOVA, so releif isn’t coming from there.

    But suppose the allocation is fixed. Even though downstate does not have the congestion problems of NOVA, they have a lot more roads to maintain. So if the alocation is fixed they will need to raise more money of their own to keep up with their own. They would actually have been better off with a statewide increase and business as usual because they would still get their cut from NOVA, or at least part of it, even if it meant they pay more taxes. Instead they have backed themselves into a lose/lose situation.

    Could it be that if both the rural and urban areas are both in a lose/lose situation it is because they both need more money?

    NMM is correct. The only people voting rationally are the rural Dem’s.

  6. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    NMM offers many good points. If you followed this debate since last year, you may remember that Dave Albo said on the floor of the House that if something didn’t happen then he would bring legislation to change the transportation formula. JLARC did a study in 2000-01 that said funding should flow to where the people are; ie, urban areas. But everyone knows that if the Urbanites try to change the formula that will be the flashpoint of WWW III in the Assembly. Fact is rural areas do pretty good under the “compromise plan.” But as Perstein pointed out in the Post the other day, why should NOVA people support a general transportation tax increase when they only get a small percentage of their money back. Is this plan ugly, you bet. But does NOVA and Tidewater get to keep the new money generated for their regions? Yes. Does rural VA get their bond money paid from geneal funds that the urban areas help subsidize? Yes. It is a Faustian bargin, but it gets the job done. Each region is different and neither region has the votes to force its will on the others. HB 3202 is a reflection of that reality.

    GhostofAlexanderHamilton

  7. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    And all this time you guys thought I was just paranoid ….

    Blogging about a conspiracy by the rural interests (aka Downstate VA) to “rip off” the urban interests.

    Now, it’s official.

    Yes …. one more census count. That would be 2010 I believe. It’s 2007 now.

    It’s said that revenge is a dish best served cold.

    The bastards who have been robbing urban Virginia of adequate / fair funding will soon be choking on that dish.

  8. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I am an anti-tax republican, but I also drive to work each day. I agree that the rest of the state should help NOVA pay for roads, but I am very confused as to what your solution is. Even if Morgan Griffith is right and NOVA gains five seats, that gives NOVA 26/100 seats. So then, the only real hope for a NOVA majority would be in 2020. Maybe I am confused but are you advocating waiting until 2020 to start building roads for NOVA?

  9. Jim Patrick Avatar
    Jim Patrick

    Groveton said… “The bastards who have been robbing urban Virginia of adequate / fair funding will soon be choking on that dish.”

    Oh poor child! Those mean ignorant hicks have made you sit in the car 30 minutes every day. Daddy Timmy will spank them for you as soon as you show what they did. Except that you’ve driven yourself into a self-righteous hatred based on … nothing.

    Absolutely nothing. To be precise: It’s what Mr. Rodokanakis said that Mr. Fisher said that Mr. Powell said that Mr. Griffith said. Remarkably missing from this unremarkable string are those remarkable little gems called “facts”.

    Us rural folks have the unique life experience to recognize manure. Apparently some urban metroplexers have become so divorced from reality they don’t recognize it, even when it’s spewing from their own mouth.

    VDOT funds are allocated on formulas —a method of doing or treating something that relies on an established, uncontroversial model or approach. In this case, the uncontroversial method used is math.

    The simple model is that interstates takes precedence with up to 25% of primary road funds; then “off the top” of remaining funds. Unpaved roads with high use get 5.6%. Of what remains, 40% goes to primary roads based on 70% vehicle miles traveled, 25% lane miles, and 5% ‘needs’ factor. After that 30% goes to county secondary systems based on 80% population and 20% land area. Cities and towns get 30% based on population.

    The 800-pound gorilla is federal funding — ¾ of construction funding— that specifies the use and requires a state match. Earmarks also take road money ‘off the top’, thereby skewing the formulas somewhat. [Special thanks to former VDOT Commissioner Philip Shucet and to VDOT’s CFO Barbara Reese, for the info]

    Anyone with evidence that ‘ROVA has been robbing NOVA’ please feel free to post some facts supporting their opinion. Until then, it’s garbage; like Groveton’s screed.

  10. rodger provo Avatar
    rodger provo

    I commend you to read the
    March 1, 2007 story in the Martinsville Bulletin in which Morgan Griffith made his comments
    cited in this posting.

    He said that by 2012 Hampton Roads and Northern Virginia (that would
    include the outer suburbs from
    Fredericksburg to Culpeper to
    Winchester) would have 55% of the
    state’s population by the 2012
    redistricting and thus control of
    the General Assembly.

    Griffith went on to say those areas
    would then be able to raid the
    state treasury for their projects
    and rural areas need to get road
    projects built before then for it
    would be much harder to do after
    this change.

    He did let the “cat out of the bag.”

  11. nova_middle_man Avatar
    nova_middle_man

    More priceless quotes from our politicians on transportation

    You can’t make this stuff up folks its a giant game of dont tax me tax that man behind the tree

    http://www.connectionnewspapers.com/article.asp?article=78291&paper=0&cat=109

    My favorite quote

    HOUSE of Delegates Democratic caucus leader Brian Moran said many of the Democrats who supported the bill were less experienced.
    “The more senior members who have been around for awhile and have experienced economic downturns and what those mean for the state budget, they all voted against the bill,” said Moran.

    Uh oh you mean some delegates actually try and do whats best for their districts. Oh the horrow

  12. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Poor Jim Patrick – sitting in ROVA and wondering what seed company to call in order to start one of those new-fangled “server farms” to replace his current tobacco farm.

    Try planting Intel chips Jim – see what grows.

    Meanwhile, I don’t have time to educate you on the well established transfer pattern of transfer payments from NOVA / HR / Richmond suburbs to ROVA. But you’re in luck – there’s a 15 year old young man named Kenton Ngo who has the 750 Volts blog. Read every post for about the last 90 – 120 days. While you’re reading, think about Kenton and his friends – all grown up – and in charge of the state. You’d better hope that his youthful Liberalism holds. He and the other voters who will tip the balance of power in Virginia may have pity on those of you who have robbed urban Virginia (please note, and this is not hard, I say urban Virginia – not Northern Virginia). However, most voters in the new majority will only remember the days of rural Virginia insisting on infrastructure investment in tobacco farms instead of server farms. Potato chip companies instead of micro chip companies. Glassware instead of software.

    Good luck to you then.

    I hope you have an adequate supply of mules on hand. You’ll need them for transportation during the 30 years or so it will take for the new majority to right the wrongs of the old majority.

  13. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Groveton, you have articulated the rage that many in NoVa feel towards “downstate” or “rural Virginia” in regards to the roads problem. It is an all-too-human tendency to blame someone else for your problems. We all do it. But in this case, the rage is misplaced.

    Jim Patrick explained how the road-funding formula works. As I have noted repeatedly on this blog, certain realities are not going to change. The first of those realities is that money for maintenance comes off the top. I don’t think there’s any support for changing that bedrock policy. The second reality is that the purpose of Interstate and primary roads is to provide connectivity between regions. By the nature of things, those major roads run through “rural” areas, hence rural areas get a disproportionate share of funding. Now, even NoVa needs connectivity to other places — if not in Virginia, then places beyond Virginia.

    Let’s say, though, that rough-and-tumble negotiations in the General Assembly leads to a fairer share of secondary road funds for NoVa. Let’s say, to pick numbers out of the hat, NoVa increases its % of the take from 15 percent of construction dollars to 25 percent. Let’s say NoVa gets an extra $100 million a year out of the existing revenue stream. Guess what, that doesn’t come close to solving the region’s problems.

    The bottom line: NoVa’s transportation problems are not the fault of downstate or rural Virginia. NoVa’s problems are the result of (a) dysfunctional human settlement patterns, (b) a fixation on mega projects instead of spot road improvements that offer a higher return on investment, (c) an unwillingness or inability to embrace/devise shared ridership, and (d) until recently a tendency to expect “the state” to swoop in and solve its problems.

    Part of any long-term solution for NoVa is to do what the GOP transportation bill is trying to do: (a) devolve more responsibility, along with commensurate revenues, from the state to the localities, for building and maintaining secondary roads, and (b) to increase regional revenues exempt from redistribution through the state funding formula. There’s lots of work left to be done on land use reform and development of shared ridership, of course, and the revenue mix is all wrong — it’s the total opposite of a user pays system. But it’s a move in the right direction.

  14. rodger provo Avatar
    rodger provo

    Virginia’s transportation mess
    is the result of 20 years of neglect
    by the state government
    during a period of rapid growth.

    I do not blame rural Virginia for
    this problem.

    Ignorant politicians that led us
    down this road damaged our state
    just as has taken place in the
    the federal government with the
    deficit spending and programs we
    do not want to raise taxes to
    provide inadequate funding.

    THERE IS A BIG LIE IN VIRGINIA’s
    ECONOMIC SUCCESS: FEDERAL DEFICIT
    SPENDING IS FUNDING OUR ECONOMY
    AT THE EXPENSE OF THE REST
    OF THE NATION AND THE FUTURE
    OF OUR CHILDREN AND GRAND-CHILDREN.

  15. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “The 800-pound gorilla is federal funding — ¾ of construction funding— that specifies the use and requires a state match.”

    This matches my knowledge also.

    The state gas tax goes FIRST for maintenance and when maintenance costs match state gas tax revenues the fund begins.

    Then the Fed funding gets whacked because there is no more match money from the State funds.

    But why would urban Va – with most of the people in Va expect ROVA with a clear minority of people to be able to pay enough taxes (even if politically forced to) to make a meaningful dent in needs?

    And why would NoVa and TW/HR folks believe that ANY budget bill that enables them to tax themselves to be inferior to a budget that would attempt to tax RoVa for their regional needs?

    The bottom line is that NoVa and TW/HR have the people, the congestion and they also “own” the fix also whether it be land-use or more money, more roads, more transit or more focus on congestion-relief projects.

    If the urban folks think RoVa are “hicks”, then what adjective would you apply to city folks who think country folk are interested in paying for levels of congestion that make them glad they live in the country to start with.

    I don’t know about TW/HR… but in NoVa I think most people realize and accept the concept that they are going to have to foot the major portion of the bill for “fixing” the region.

    It’s the areas like Fredericksburg – the smaller urbanizing “nodes” that still believe that RoVa will pay for their needs and wishful thinking in my opinion – and worse – the reason why they continue to think that their land-use decisions should not “burden” them with roads responsibilities.

    JLARC has it right.

    Let the Feds pay for interstates and primary roads that “connect” regions.

    Let localities pay for secondary/local roads and let them deal directly with their land-use decisions.

    Then let Regions whether they be the mega ones in NoVa and HR/TW or smaller urbanized areas like Fredericksburg and Charlottesville, Roanoke, etc build and maintain regional facilities since in those areas boundaries really mean little anyhow and there is a major reason why they are classified as MSAs in the first place.

    If a locality like TW/HR does not trust it’s MPOs and/or Regional authorities – so be it but no one outside that reason should feel one bit of remorse for them either.

    For areas like Fredericksburg, my home, the same exact advice.

    Get your own house in order and don’t expect school teachers in Farmville or retired farmers in Amelia or deputy sheriffs in Wise to be coughing up their limited funds for our roads.

  16. Jim Wamsley Avatar
    Jim Wamsley

    “Anyone with evidence that ‘ROVA has been robbing NOVA’ please feel free to post some facts supporting their opinion.”

    First fact. The allocation formula starts earlier.

    A) Commonwealth Port Fund, 4.2 percent
    B) Commonwealth Airport Fund, 2.4 percent
    C) Commonwealth Mass Transit Fund, 14.7 percent
    D) Highways, 78.7 percent.

    The ratio of transit to highways should include an allocation based on the number of trips serving individuals that live in transit oriented development. Transit comes in various flavors; Occasional service for those who can’t drive, Rush hour service, and Transit oriented development service. The Mass transit fund portion of 14.7 % covers occasional service. Transit oriented development service, like Metro in Northern Virginia, is funded locally.

    Second Fact. All roads don’t serve the same number of trips. The 40% for primary roads is divided among VDOT’s nine construction districts in proportion to the vehicle-miles traveled (70%), primary road lane mileage (25%), and the primary road need factor (5%).
    VDOT has not completed the 33.1-23.03 comprehensive review of statewide transportation needs within the last five years so any allocation formula is out of date.

    Enough facts. Now overarching goals. What is missing is the relationship of transportation to land use. All the emphasis is on miles traveled. No recognition that a shorter trip is a more economical trip. No recognition that at times of peak demand, rail is more economical than cars. No recognition that above a certain volume, rail is cheaper for freight than trucks. No recognition that the number of trucks does not reflect the value of moving goods.

    You can discuss formulas. But the real answer is to put VDOTs investment decisions on a return on investment basis. By return on investment, I look for minimizing transportation expense for the citizens of the commonwealth.

  17. Jim Patrick Avatar
    Jim Patrick

    It may turn out as Groveton and Del. Marshall predict: greedy, self-centered jurisdictions cutoff funding to less politically powerful areas. That is what Marshall was saying —not that this bill is a raid by the rural, but that it forestalls the (in his opinion) inevitable future raid by urban centers.

    [To other readers, this article is on transportation funding, for which there is reasonably fair and equitable distribution. Groveton is trying to bamboozle by conflating transportation formulas with the distribution of other general funds —health, education, welfare, law enforcement, etc— that may not be so equally distributed.]

    Wondering why my county’s road funding has radically decreased, I’ve been making my way through the VDOT chain. So far, they’ve all been very responsive and helpful (I’ll confess it wasn’t what I expected), but I have also gained unusual insights from highly educated professionals about transportation in general.

    Here’s one of those insights >> It may come to pass that Groveton’s spiteful selfishness comes to political power. Stuff happens. If so, let us hope computer chips taste good, that his server farms yield nutritious produce, that software can double as tableware and clothing to wear. Let us hope Groveton’s vaunted servers can recycle generated heat, producing electricity to power themselves (!); that truly ‘natural’ gas will generate enough heat.

    Even in Richmond, VDOT-types realize “the NOVA economy” is an expression, not a real economy. It’d be a shame if Groveton’s raw rage at others in the state spreads enough that they take action and implode.

    As far as transportation, Kenton (or Wamsley) has no data on ‘ROVA robbing NOVA’. I’m open to any facts supporting that opinion, but until then, those claims are garbage.

  18. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Jim Bacon:

    Wasn’t this in your original posting:

    “The Republican legislator told the local crowd that the whole purpose of this transportation package is to make sure that rural roads get built and rural interests are protected before those urban folks up in northern Virginia take over the legislature and the state, which is a demographic inevitability.”

    This should explain why the Republicans decided to change course and let NOVA and Hampton Roads tax themselves in order to build their own roads. This way the pressure is diverted and the legislators downstate don’t have to worry about taking funds from rural roads. What a compromise, eh?”.

    Having read that, what would you expect my reaction to be?

    Additionally, you have personally written (on this blog) that the transportation funding formulae in Virginia were established 20 years ago, no longer make sense and were the intentional handicraft of rural legislators trying to grab more than a fair share of the money. Do you now disavow those prior statements?

    Finally, Jim Wamsley said it best in his entry above, “You can discuss formulas. But the real answer is to put VDOTs investment decisions on a return on investment basis. By return on investment, I look for minimizing transportation expense for the citizens of the commonwealth.”.

  19. Jim Patrick Avatar
    Jim Patrick

    Addenda to my 8:24 post:
    For perspective on ‘who’s robbing who’— VDOT’s 2007 budget is $4.3 billion with $1.5 billion for maintenance, $260 million debt payment and $440 million for transit, leaving $2.1 billion for everything else. Springfield Interchange plus Wilson Bridge cost $2.1 billion. Just perspective.

    Definitely in the realm of fantasy but relevant. Definitely in the realm of fantasy but relevant. Groveton-type attitude was anticipated by author Parke Godwin in 1978, writing The Masters of Solitude, a post-Apocalyptic work set in the mid-Atlantic region and Virginia. Post-Apocalyptic because the urban corridor had shut itself off from those ‘nasty rural hicks’ and (predictably) consumed itself. Excellent, challenging and entertaining sci-fi/fantasy read —one reviewer called it ‘social science fiction’— by an exceptional author. Godwin later wrote A Cold Blue Light and Wintermind to make a topical trilogy.

  20. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “Finally, Jim Wamsley said it best in his entry above, “You can discuss formulas. But the real answer is to put VDOTs investment decisions on a return on investment basis. By return on investment, I look for minimizing transportation expense for the citizens of the commonwealth.”.

    And here’s the problem.

    If you let roads compete for General Revenue funding – you can forget about what Wamsley (and JLARC and the Auditor of Public Accounts) has said…

    because… every single local legislator is going to put a bill in to get funding for their local favorite road for purposes OTHER THAN the purpose that JW stated.

    And we all know what happens next -EVERYONE votes for the bloated bill because everyone gets something out of it.

    If you like what is going on with the Fed Earmarks… get ready for the Virginia version of it.

    It will be open season on the General Revenues and there won’t be enough seats in the conference rooms in the GA to seat everyone who wants to advocate for their own favorite road.

  21. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Groveton, I agree, Virginia’s road-funding formulas absolutely need to be updated. NoVa residents just need to be realistic about how much difference it’s going to make.

    The phenomenon of traffic congestion is so deeply embedded in our society that there is no simple remedy — and that includes spending more money to build more roads. There are many, many solutions, each of which adress a facet of a very complex problem. For NoVa, one small part of the solution is getting a fairer transportation funding formula. But in the grand scheme of things, that might get the region 5 percent closer to a lasting solution.

  22. Jim Patrick Avatar
    Jim Patrick

    Groveton wrote: “Wasn’t this in your original posting: [ quote snipped ]“

    No. That’s what Mr. Rodokanakis said that Mr. Fisher said that Mr. Powell said that Mr. Griffith said. At minimum, a lot of context was lost.

    Groveton continues … “Having read that, what would you expect my reaction to be?“

    Comprehension would be a good start, ‘examine the facts’ would be nice too. Apparently that’s not conceivable, instead libeling massive sections of the state, promising revenge for some perceived slight, and making Rodokanakis=Bacon. Hmmm…

  23. Jim Patrick Avatar
    Jim Patrick

    Larry Gross wrote… It will be open season on the General Revenues and there won’t be enough seats in the conference rooms in the GA to seat everyone who wants to advocate for their own favorite road.

    What a coincidence, that’s almost exactly what Del. Morgan Griffith said.

  24. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    “No recognition that at times of peak demand, rail is more economical than cars.”

    Who cares if rail is more economical at times of peak demand? You have to support and operate the entire system all the tme, just to meet that profitable peak period. The fact is that meeting peak demand is far more costly for rail.

    Operating cost per passenger mile for Metro was $0.44 in 2003. Operating cost per revenue mile was $8.30 cents. Divide one by the other to learn that on average metro was carrying less than nineteen passengers per revenue mile.

    And that is just OPERATING costs, folks.

    The advantage of rail is not cost, lets just get over that. The advantage is that you can crry more people in a short time on a smaller corridor. On reason you can carry more passengers is that you are allowed to pack them in like sardines: you don’t have to give them a seat or a seatbelt.

    That advantage also only works provided the destination zone is sufficiently dense that all those passengers can then walk the rest of the way to their destination. Therefore the “advantage” that metro has comes at a huge disadvantage as far as nearly everything else is concerned.

    Those dense destination zones are enormously expensive to construct and maintain. They are primarily office oriented which means that they have only peak period use just as the trains do. We are building and maintaining one huge peak period system just so we will have an excuse and justification to build and maintain the other. In doing so we are conveniently ignoring all the negative aspects of both of these systems.

    And for what? The closer we look the more we see what a farce it is.

    “A recent study of traffic congestion in New York City showed that most of the cars in the urbanites’ path, it turns out, belong to other urbanites. According to regional traffic experts, “more than half the drivers who crowd into Manhattan each workday come from the five boroughs,” the New York Times reported last week, graciously registering their shock that suburbanites are not to blame. “‘There’s a lot of myths, and when you look at the data, the myths go pop, pop, pop, one by one,’ said Bruce Schaller, a transportation consultant.”

    That is only one fact about traffic in New York City that may surprise some people. For example, 35 percent of government workers drive to work, many because they have free parking. Also, one in five drivers entering the busiest parts of Manhattan are only passing through, on their way somewhere else.

    Finally, many drivers say that they simply prefer the convenience and solitude of their own vehicles and have found ways to get around the worst congestion.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/12/nyregion/12traffic.html?ex=1173330000&en=333b683d992f3475&ei=5070

  25. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    I’m going to have to read Masters of Solitude.

    It sounds from your description that it backs up my theory that when we really have location appropriate charges, that the urban areas will take a huge hit.

  26. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    It is a Faustian Bargain.

    The whole thing is comical. Those in NOVA that thnk they should have more help from ROVA don’t realize there isn’t enough money there to provide much help.

    At the same time they claim that if they don’t get the help they are asking for then they will soon be big enough to come and take it anyway. Of course, if they are that big, then where do they think the money is going to come from.

    No matter how this plays out, ROVA is going to wind up paying more, but it won’t be more for urban area roads it will be that without Urban money coming in, they will have to pay more for their own roads.

    The allocation formula really doesn’t play into it. Because the allocation formula is “just math” it doesn’t say anything about where the money that goes into the formula comes from, and because the urban areas are the economic engine, that is whare the money comes from, even if the formulae then spreads that money around “fairly”.

  27. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “….but it won’t be more for urban area roads it will be that without Urban money coming in, they will have to pay more for their own roads.”

    ???????

    If the idea is that raising taxes statewide will result in NoVa continuing to get less than their citizens pay in -yes.

    If the idea is that raising taxes in NoVa for NoVa that they will pay “more”.. then “more” than what?

    Of course folks continue to not see what more money in NoVa will be spent for….. if the EPA continues their road-build ban.

    I’d say off the top of my head – transit… and any road improvements that don’t add to overall pollution levels – congestion priced roads…

    “”just math” it doesn’t say anything about where the money that goes into the formula comes from”

    oops… in order for someone to claim that NoVa is getting screwed on the formula.. isn’t that determined by calculating how much NoVa contributes to the revenue stream verses how much the state gives back to them?

    And her’s an irony… the R’s give NoVa the “right” to tax property for transporation… and then they take a major part of it to give to RoVa… nice work if you can get it….

    The best deal for is NOT a R sponsored budget in the GA – in the first place.

    It’s only formalizes the inequities further – larger and deeper.

  28. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Mr. Patrick:

    You’ve iissued a challenge to find one shred of evidence showing that NOVA is subsidizing ROVA. I suggested that you look at Kenton Ngo’s 750 Volts blog. You looked and found nothing of interest.

    Please look in Mr. Ngo’s December 2006 archives for his blog of December 28, 2006 entitled, “Fairfax Getting the Shaft in Education Funding, On a Map”.

    I’d say that this provides a bit more than a shred of evidence.

    It’s clear that Fairfax (and a number of other urban counties throughout the state) is “getting the shaft” as Mr. Ngo contends. However, since Mr. Ngo is a student at a Fairfax County High School and since he is obviously a very bright, well educated young man – at least we’re getting something for the substantial excess we pay over what we receive. Which is a considerable improvement over the same imbalance, re: VDOT.

    Mr. Patrick – you have repeatedly asked for evidence of NOVA funding ROVA. Does Mr. Ngo’s excellent analysis meet your requirements?

  29. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I don’t think mixing the education money with transportation money is a good approach.

    I don’t disagree with respect to the issue of whether or not Fairfax should get “more” back on Education funding but I think a more clear distinction can and should be made with regard to road funds FIRST.

    Keep them separate and keep them distinct.

    There is a reason why with respect to education funds.

    I’m not saying that it doesn’t need to be re-examined and possibly adjusted but it has nothing to do with roads and everything to do with ensuring that all kids in Virginia have an equal opportunity at an education regardless of where they are located.

    This is a responsibility that we should all support .. no more and no less than we would support those who are well off paying for those who through no fault of their own cannot and kids certainly go on that list.

    If there is, in fact, a disparity in road funds.. I TOO would like to see some numbers.

    I can see a possible similiar issues for ensuring a minimum standard of safety for roads statewide but especially those that connect Virginia – the Primary Roads for sure and the Interstates.

    but it would be good to see some numbers.

    check out page 62 of this:

    http://www.apa.state.va.us/data/download/reports/audit_local/CTF06.pdf

  30. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Larry:

    Interesting to see that flow-chart on page 62. It would be even better to see a list of all the municipalities with the taxes raised vs. tax money spent.

    Meanwhile – take a look at this:

    http://forwardfairfax.com//papers/withdrawals.html

    This is why I think you have to look at any and all subsidies. The 2004 tax hike added to the education subsidy paid by NOVA to ROVA. Meanwhile, certain municipalities were lowering their own real estate tax rates while they were cashing NOVA’s bigger subsidy checks.

    If these municipalities were poor people living in the inner city they’d be called “welfare mothers” and told to “get off the dole”. But they are not poor people living in the inner city. They are sophisticated slackers who intend to fund their low/no growth lifestyles out of Northern Virginia’s wallet.

  31. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    What I am saying is that if statewide taxes go up AND urban virginia gets to keep more of what they raise, then the real increased burden will still fall on the rural areas. The urban areas may also pay more, but they will get to keep more of what they pay.

    Same goes with the bond issues. As long as the money is spent where the most congestion is, the end result (sometime in the future) will be that urban Virginia gets to keep more of what it provides. Since that is likely to happen anyway (sometime in the future) the present billis merely a recognition of future realities.

    One way or another, urban Virginia is going to get to keep more of what it provides, and it needs to do just that. But what does this say about paying the full locational costs?

  32. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    Larry, you seem to be saying that it is OK to throw education money all in one pot and then spend it willy nilly. Am I wrong?

  33. nova_middle_man Avatar
    nova_middle_man

    whoops that was clear as mud

    On the budget side the money spent is broken out by district on page 7 of 207 in the last link here

    http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/reports-budget.asp

    The problem is there is no easy way to figure out how much money was collected from each district for transportation

  34. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    debt service, operations, payments to other agencies, administration, special financing and earmarks.

    So, one third of our road money does not go to roads. It goes to things like building schooners, talking about building roads, it goes to “other agencies” and it goes to pork.

    Would anyone here donate money to a charity that operated that way?

  35. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    NMM:

    That was a great piece of work. I hope the rest of us can rise to the challenge you have thrown up.

  36. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “Larry, you seem to be saying that it is OK to throw education money all in one pot and then spend it willy nilly. Am I wrong?”

    HELL YES!

    I think the two 600 lb gorillas are roads and education.

    both are huge and unresponsive bureacracies that resist accounting measures.

    and the fundamental issue with both is that when we waste money on ineffective strategies we deprive money from other things that may produce results.

    But they are different and need to be treated separately.

    When we comingle them… we actually are making it much harder to fix either.

  37. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “The problem is there is no easy way to figure out how much money was collected from each district for transportation”

    yes.. and thanks for the other links.. I have some homework.

    On the revenues per district.

    EXACTLY YES!

    you can estimate it… using various factors but I’ve not found that data either and I know that our fabulous budget-meisters in the GA DO KNOW THIS but apparently it is a State Secret.

    Ray Hyde said: “So, one third of our road money does not go to roads.”

    VDOT has over 9000 employees and contracts out virtually all construction and a lot of maintenance.

    Can you say “overhead”?

    Our county passed a referenda to build some roads.. and once they started getting into the “details” of costs – they were shocked to find out how much a VDOT “review” cost – both in time and money.

    Again, I say – get VDOT out of the local road building business.

    It might be a little tough in the early going but Alexandria and Henrico did it.. as well as most of our cities.

    VDOT is slow, not agile, expensive and.. worst of all – does not generally have a customer oriented focus.

    They want your money but when it comes time to get a traffic signal… hah ha ha . .the joke is on you. paperwork… delays… and finally their best refuge “we have no money even though your signal is approved”.

    I would suggest rather than arguing about how much money VDOT allocates… and whether the allocation is fair – presuming we can actually find that out – why not cut to the chase… to start wtih?

  38. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Doesn’t this quote (assuming you believe it to be true) focus the debate?

    “Northern Virginia is getting [shortchanged] right now,” said Prince William Board of County Supervisors Chairman Corey A. Stewart, a Republican. “It produces 40 percent of revenue and receives only 17 percent of highway construction funds. We need the state to step up and take care of its responsibility.”

    This is the inconvienient truth in Virginia that some people on this blog choose to ignore.

  39. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    “”just math” it doesn’t say anything about where the money that goes into the formula comes from”

    Assume the funding formula spreads money pretty much evenly around the state based on the type of road, miles of road, and use of road. If that is true then Urban Virginia is getting screwed.

    Assume the funding formula doesn’t spread the money evenly. Then there is a fifty-fifty probablility that Urban Virginia is supporting other areas. give the mass of money Urban Virginia provides, it is probably a better than fifty fifty chance.

    Until there is some way to measure who pays and who gets, and some agreed upon way to measure “need” other than subjectively, we have no idea what to fix, or how.

  40. Jim Patrick Avatar
    Jim Patrick

    Groveton said… “Doesn’t this quote (assuming you believe it to be true) focus the debate?”

    You assume something not in evidence.

    Examine Stewart’s claim: “It [NOVA] produces 40 percent of [tax] revenue [going to the general fund] and receives only 17 percent [far more than it’s proportion] of highway construction funds [from the Highway Maintenance and Operating Fund, Transportation Trust Fund, and the Priority Transportation Fund].

    With under 5% of the population, PW Co. has 1.6% of the state’s road length and 4% of the vehicle miles traveled. (link) Where’s the justification for more transportation money?

    Bless his heart, but Mr. Stewart doesn’t have a clue what percent NOVA pays into HMOF and TTF; the revenue isn’t tracked that way. So we’re back to Groveton (and now Stewart) muddling transportation and general fund moneys.

    Since this is his third or fourth time, it’s becoming very apparent that Groveton strongly favors road money directly competing with education, health and human service dollars.

  41. Jim Patrick Avatar
    Jim Patrick

    Groveton should pay attention to his own evidence (link) to find out who-robbed-whom.

    Many people wonder about the ‘inside story’ on how Democrat Warner got an unneeded tax passed through the republican legislature. Braunlich lays it out clearly.

    The pro-tax branch (Warner, Chichester et al) cut a deal: In return for a pro-tax vote, half the increased education portion would be distributed through a local cost-of-living formula; the LCI. This guaranteed a ‘bonus’ —a larger proportion— for lower cost-of-living (rural) jurisdictions. Of course that leaves less for urban/NOVA schools.

    [Groveton, pay attention] The Warner tax passed with strong urban support.

    Groveton wrote, “The bast**ds who have been robbing urban Virginia of adequate / fair funding will soon be choking on that dish”

    Well here those folk are:
    Senate Blevins, Chichester, Colgan, Deeds, Devolites, Edwards, Hanger, Hawkins, Houck, Howell, Lambert, Locke, Lucas, Marsh, Miller, Mims, Norment, Potts, Puckett, Puller, Quayle, Reynolds, Ruff, Saslaw, Stolle, Stosch, Ticer, Wampler, Watkins, Whipple, Williams

    House Alexander, Amundson, Armstrong, BaCote, Barlow, Baskerville, Bland, Brink, Bryant, Carrico, Councill, Dillard, Ebbin, Eisenberg, Fralin, Hall, Howell, A.T., Hull, Hurt, Ingram, Johnson, Jones, D.C., Jones, S.C., Keister, Lewis, Marshall, D.W., May, Melvin, Miles, Moran, Morgan, Nutter, Oder, Orrock, Parrish, Petersen, Phillips, Plum, Pollard, Rust, Scott, E.T., Scott, J.M., Shannon, Sickles, Spruill, Stump, Tata, Van Landingham, Van Yahres, Ward, Ware, O., Watts

  42. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: “Chairman Corey A. Stewart, a Republican. “It produces 40 percent of revenue and receives only 17 percent of highway construction funds.”

    let’s see some beef.

    This is a general assertion not necessarily the truth from on high.

    trust but verify

    all along.. we’ve had folks .. often political ones.. making such claims.

    Let’s get the truth.

    It would seem to me that if NoVa politicians really wanted to get their constituents stirred up and writing emails and letters to Kaine that they’d give them some realy talking points… you know some hard facts and specifics…

    It’s not that I think it’s a lie. It’s that it may not be the whole truth either.

    I know one way to find out but it is laborious and not fail safe.

    That is to go to VDOT’s six year plan total up the projects.

    Note that VDOT has decided not to do that for you.

    If they had.. it would be easy to see how much Fairfax got in 2007, ditto Prince William, ditto other localities .. and then easy to do a population divided and get the per capita equivalents.

    But hey… Mr. Stewart could save us the trouble and provide this kind of data to back up his assertion.

    Someone want to ask him?

  43. nova_middle_man Avatar
    nova_middle_man

    A clue might be in the press comments with Kaine today

    http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20070307-103422-2149r.htm

    Prince William

    Corey A. Stewart, chairman of the Prince William Board of County Supervisors, said that if Mr. Kaine became more willing to use more general-fund revenue — primarily state sales and income taxes — for transportation, then the General Assembly should consider “as a compromise” a statewide gasoline tax increase that would return the money to the localities where the funds originated.

    Loudoun

    Loudoun County Board of Supervisors Chairman Scott K. York said that his primary concern is that the revenue raised in his county through the new taxing options would stay in the county. Mr. York said he also is concerned that “currently, the mix is 100 percent for us to raise and zero on the state.”
    “From my perspective, the state needs to be a 50-50 partner in this,” he said.

    http://www.timescommunity.com/site/tab1.cfm?newsid=18050946&BRD=2553&PAG=461&dept_id=507589&rfi=6

    Fairfax’s main beef with the transportation proposal was that it would require the county to bear the burden of new roads construction and maintenance, but Kaine said the so-called roads devolution was an item that was universally opposed. Rather than striking it from the bill completely, he said, it was likely that it would become an optional provision, allowing jurisdictions that already build their own roads using state money to continue doing so.

    ___________________________________

    They have all some good points

    Basically why should NoVa & HR/TW pay for its roads when the rest of the state can still rely on state funding.

    It will be interesting to see what Kaine does

  44. Jim Patrick Avatar
    Jim Patrick

    Nobody has a clue what percent NOVA pays into HMOF and TTF because the revenue can’t be tracked that way. Gas tax is paid by the distributors, not the retailers. [Straight off the phone with VDOT’s Finance]

    Undoubtably NOVA pays a large amount of tax that goes to the general fund. But it’s transportation needs (lane miles OR VMT) isn’t outstanding at all.

  45. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I appreciate Patricks apparent knowledge of funding… and if you have links… please share.

    As I said earlier. No matter how unfair that folks “think” the allocations might be:

    1. – we are lacking hard data to know the true extent

    2. – it’s clearly water under the bridge in terms of the current circumstances where the current funding is essentially equal to the current costs of maintenance.

    3. – it would seem that the argument is about WHERE new money would come from and HOW it would be allocated.

    In that regard.. if the allocation numbers are thought to be not good, then the path is clear – self destiny. Raise your own money for your own needs and keep the state from skimming those funds.

    When folks say they want the State to “share” the costs.. what they are saying is that they want other state taxpayers outside of the region to pay “their share” of the costs of NoVa roads.

    This is a no go.

    The only “share” that statewide taxpayers should pay is with respect to, as JLARC put it -“roads of statewide significance” both maintenance and new construction for projects that cannot be PPTA/toll.

    At the regional level – the same concept should apply. Roads within a jurisdiction need to be the responsibility of the jurisdiction.

    roads that are Regional need to be done on a regional cooperative basis .. and we have a way to do that with MPOs.

    I cannot believe that folks essentially want to continue the pyramid scam practices of each locality creating a list of projects that it cannot fund by itself… all localities giving such a list to VDOT, who then gives them back a list of those projects with bogus cost estimates and even more bogus build schedules.

    That’s what you’re voting for – continuation of a fatally flawed approach where each locality believes that the “state” will fund projects that they cannot afford themselves.

    I would think that no self-respecting Republican of any stripe would sign on to this concept.

    What this has “devolved” into, in my view, is a refusal to address basic realities and a refusal to let go of concepts that are fiscally irresponsible from the get go.

    Even if/when NoVa and TW/HR gain the “upper hand” in terms of voting demographics… taxing folks of modest means in places like Farmville who number 1/100 in population compared to NoVa is going to bring you pennies on dollars that are needed.

    At the end of the day, the 100 folks in NoVa are going to have to pay the vast majority of the dollars for NoVa roads, not that one person in Farmville.

  46. nova_middle_man Avatar
    nova_middle_man

    Larry,

    We agree if we are going the region pays route every region should play along.

    Right now we have business as usual and then HR/NoVa are the only regions asked to help pay their own way. Sounds like a double tax/fee to me until you look deeper.

    For the first time NoVa has an opportuniy to raise 400 million and keep 400 million.

    The million dollar question is under the current system when NoVa raises 400 million do they get back 400 million, 600 million, or 200 million.

    Depending on the results of this question should determine how people are voting. This data has to be out there somewhere.

  47. nova_middle_man Avatar
    nova_middle_man

    Allow me to take an educated guess

    NoVa loses on general fund and wins on transportation

    So an optimal vote for NoVa would be reductions in the general fund and increases in the gas tax.

    Low and behold this is exactly what Corey Stewart proposed from Prince William. interesting

  48. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I guess you took a look at how much statewide money would come from the bonds… and NoVa’s “share” of that….assuming they get 100% equitable share…

    90 million I believe. Not chump change by any stretch.. but in terms of today’s prices for infrastructure… I imagine it will quickly get eaten up by something no one thinks is worth that much money…

    🙂

  49. nova_middle_man Avatar
    nova_middle_man

    The truth shall set you free

    hattip

    http://everyonelikestomrust.blogspot.com/

    As Chairman of the House Appropriations Committee, I want to take the opportunity to correct some misinformation by Herndon resident Jay Donahue before it is taken as factual.In a Feb. 16 Leesburg Today article, Mr. Donahue state that Northern Virginia gets “only 17 percent” of Virginia’s roads money annually. I certainly hope Mr. Donahue does more homework between now and November, because he is off by over 20 percent.Under the current transportation formula, which includes federal, state and transit money, Northern Virginia gets about 40 percent of Virginia’s funds for new road and transit projects. In fact, we get more money than any other region of the Commonwealth of Virginia for roads and nearly 85 percent of all transit money.It amazes me how much people can bend the facts to suit whatever they are trying to say. But the facts are the facts. I know we need more money for transportation and we are working to achieve that worthy goal. At the same time, I don’t think anyone should site obviously incorrect facts to make this case. Using the wrong facts just gives our opponents in rural Virginia more ammunition when they fight against our bills to revise the funding formula.By the way, if Mr. Donahue wants to get more information on the road funding formula before he puts out any more public misinformation, there is one person I suggest he talk to. Delegate Tom Rust can give him all the facts and figures on the formula, and he can probably do it from memory. Tom has joined our colleagues on both sides of the aisle to introduce bills dealing with the transportation formula nearly every year. Tom has become perhaps our best-known expert in the General Assembly on the funding formula. He has also worked closely with the Warner and Kaine administrations on transportation issues.I hope Mr. Donahue will correct his statements and do better research in the future. In any political debate, the facts are very important and they should not be disregarded by someone just because that person has a political agenda.

    Del. Vincent F. Callahan, Jr., McLean

    Delegate Callahan will be sorely missed as a voice of sanity.

  50. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    so… what IS .. the TRUTH?

    this is why I keep asking for supporting data…. the emphasis being on the “supporting”.

    Lots of figures thrown around.. with abandon…

    lots of willingly uneducated more than willing to jump on bandwagons..

    we look like a bunch of idiots sometimes.

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