In the Company of the Virginia Tea Party

At different points in its brief history, the Tea Party movement has been variously portrayed by the ruling class and its compliant tools in the mainstream media as (a) an astroturf rent-a-mob orchestrated by conservative special interest groups, (b) an ignorant rabble of rustics, cranks, gun lovers, spittoon users and Deliverance Creatures, (c) a racist reaction to the election of a black president, and, more recently, when a New York Times poll found Tea Partiers to be better educated and to have higher incomes than the general population, as (d) to quote Washington Post columnist E.J. Dionne, Jr., “the populism of the privileged.”

Apologists for the status quo will never understand the movement because they cannot bring themselves to acknowledge the simple and obvious truth: that the Tea Party is a middle-class movement protesting its pillaging at the hands of politicians, lobbyists, fixers, pleaders and feeders at the trough of the federal government. But the paid prevaricators of the dominant media do understand that the Tea Party represents an existential threat to their power and privileges, thus they seek to de-legitimize it by any means.

Until this past weekend, I have observed the Tea Party from afar, largely sympathetic to it but, fed consistently negative images by a mainstream media that highlighted the most extreme statements and actions of a few, I was unwilling to publicly align myself with the movement. However, having had the opportunity to attend the Virginia Tea Party Patriots Convention in Richmond on Friday and Saturday, chat with dozens of attendees and soak up many of the speeches and presentations, I have no reservation whatsoever now to declare myself a Tea Party patriot.

Who are the Tea Partiers? I would love to take the mailing addresses of the 2,400-or-so attendees of the convention and conduct a geodemographic segmentation analysis, as my friend (and geodemographic segmentation analyst) Steve Toler suggested. Until such a thing is possible, I will have to rely upon my own anecdotal impressions.

Ethnically speaking, it is safe to say that the Tea Party is overwhelmingly white. Critics of the movement have pointed to that simple fact, along with its hostility to America’s first black president, as proof that the Tea Party is in some sense “racist.” Such is the intellectual bankruptcy of the critics. (I would argue that the critics’ profound ignorance is a good thing, for as long as they persist in totally misunderstanding the movement, the more impotent they will be in opposing it.)

The organizers of the Tea Party made every effort to be inclusive. At least two of the keynote speakers were African-Americans (and there may have been more — I did not have a chance to see everything), who delivered crowd-pleasing speeches in the great tradition of African-American church oratory. The Bishop E.W. Jackson, who leads a large congregation in Chesapeake, generated some of the strongest applause of the convention and practically had the predominantly white audience calling out, “A-men,” from the seats. (View the clip above.)

There was a smattering of African-Americans — I would guess several dozen — among the attendees. Given the widespread media smear of the movement as one step removed from the Ku Klux Klan, I consider that a remarkable accomplishment. Hopefully, black attendees will report back to their friends and family members that it is safe to attend Tea Party rallies, ensuring greater African-American participation in the future. Indeed, I think this is likely. I chatted with one black minister from the Richmond area who came to check out the proceedings. Like many African-Americans, he felt thoroughly alienated by the Republican Party, but he was deeply disappointed by President Obama and the Democrats as well. He wondered if the non-partisan Tea Party might prove to be a viable political alternative. There is a strong (though not dominant) social conservative element to the Tea Party movement that members of African-American churches may feel very at home with.

I also feel safe in saying that the Tea Partiers are overwhelmingly middle class. I have interacted with a broad cross-section of Richmond’s business and political elites over the years, and I saw very few familiar faces at the convention. The interests of politics and business are so tightly conjoined, even in a state capital like Richmond, that the better-off folks, even the political conservatives, prefer to work the system from the inside. The Tea Partiers consist of people who have no stake in the status quo. To the contrary, they feel over-taxed, over-regulated, hectored by those who seem themselves as their betters, and fear runaway deficits and the black hole of a national debt that threatens to swallow the country whole.

The Tea Party is a big tent. Members include both God-fearing social conservatives and atheist followers of Ayn Rand. Some support free trade; others are protectionist. Some support a strong military and assertive foreign policy; others are isolationists and abhor foreign wars. What unifies the audience is a reverence for the Constitution; a desire for smaller, less intrusive government; a faith in free markets; an unabashed love of the country; and a distrust of the elites of both political parties who have warped the founding Constitution, expanded the power of central government, usurped free markets and threaten in their overweening greed to bankrupt the country.

I did encounter a few conspiratorially minded people who see sinister and secretive forces at work. A handful of others had highly idiocyncratic views. Such is to be expected of any collection of 2,400 people. But the outliers do not define the movement. The vast majority of people I met are reasonably well informed; some are very well informed. Many are new to politics, frightened by the direction they see the country heading, but they are eagerly seeking more knowledge. They don’t always see the world as I do. (I doubt many would share my views regarding the critical importance of human settlement patterns.) But I do feel comfortable in their company.


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42 responses to “In the Company of the Virginia Tea Party”

  1. Taxes are the lowest since the 1950's and Govt has not grown in 10 years except for the Military and Homeland Security & Immigration.

    What is it that the government has done to people – RIGHT NOW – not what they fear in the future – but right now.

    What is it that govt is being blamed for – right now- that has adversely affected these people's interests?

    Aren't these the same basic right wingers that have been around for decades complaining about government and regulation except now they have a recruitment arm to bulk up their numbers so they can wrap themselves in Sheep's clothing?

    Whe you have folks like Dick Armey and the Koches, Newt Gingrich, Ralph Reed, Ailes of Fox News, etc bankrolling these groups – who is supposed to believe that the core of these groups is truly grass roots?

    So, here's a question.

    Who booked the Richmond convention Center and paid the deposit to set up up?

    I give the right wing credit.

    They are Masters of the disinformation campaign and of riling up average people who really have no clue about simple facts like what the current tax rate is or size of govt.

    I got yet another email from well meaning but ignorant friends who are convinced that Congress gets a different pension and different health care plan than other government workers.

    The email had a long chain on it and tea party involvement.

    It is beyond me that people would read that email.. and forward it on to their friends without fact checking it.

    When I did fact check it and send the links back to the person who sent it – I got NO RESPONSE.

    what does that tell you?

    It tells me that either they don't know the facts or don't want to know the facts.

    But they are willing to send these emails and attend Tea party rally's.

    so my question is – what kind of people don't want to know the facts before they gather together as a group to complain and demonstrate against a government that is not the government that really exists?

  2. Waldo Jaquith Avatar
    Waldo Jaquith

    There was a smattering of African-Americans — I would guess several dozen — among the attendees. Given the widespread media smear of the movement as one step removed from the Ku Klux Klan, I consider that a remarkable accomplishment.

    I believe this is was President Bush called "the soft bigotry of low expectations."

  3. Racism is the lease of the tea party's worries. Their biggest problem is that Fox News hijacked their organization, and destroyed it by doing so.

  4. Anonymous Avatar

    I do not see anything in Mr. Bacon's post that differs from the definition of Tea Partyer as those expressing what Prof Risse calls The Anger of Ignorance.

    They were given a megaphone by the well to do wing of a political Clan that believes it will benefit their short term intersts.

    What is the Bacon response to the report in the Wash Post that the current Atty Gen of VA got the largest ovations at the session?

    Observer.

  5. Gooze Views Avatar
    Gooze Views

    Well gee,
    I am so impressed that James A. Bacon now considers the Tea Party movment worthy of his personal stamp of approval.
    Stats show they are mostly middle aged or retired, white and fairly affluent. Many are military retirees whose pensions are secure, at least for now. They are enjoying the lowest income tax rates since the 1950s. They are not exactly the ones being laid off. And they made good use of a hall paid for by taxes put on Richmond's hotel operators — a tax, by the way, they did not want.
    So why are they the point of the spear? When I spoke to some at a previous Tea Party meeting, I was told that what they wanted was to go back to the "morality" of 50 years ago. Let's see, 50 years ago brought us the cynicism and waste of the Vietnam War, CIA plots against left-wing governments, a revival of the Ku Klux Klan and the murders of civil rights workers and cities aflame with trace riots.
    Also, I find Jim's statement about African-American participation to be incredibly patronizing. I was at the convention too and I saw very few blacks although some of the keynote speaker, such as Bishop Jackson, was there.

    Peter Galuszka

  6. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Observer, the Post was correct: Cuccinelli won the loudest applause of the entire convention.

    The Tea Party loves him for his lawsuit contesting the provision in Obamacare that would force people to purchase insurance (or pay a stiff fine). If that's not a violation of the Interstate Commerce clause of the Constitution, then *nothing* is a violation of the Interstate Commerce clause and there are *no* constitutional restrictions on the power of the federal government to regulate the economy. I totally support Cuccinelli's position in this regard.

    Also, Observer, you seem to be perfectly comfortable with the idea of the federal leviathan state. Has it never occurred to you that an all-powerful, all-intrusive federal government is irreconcilable with EMR's vision of delegating governmental powers to the appropriate *level* of government? The only way you can bring your vision to life is by prying an enormous amount of power out of the hands of the federal government.

  7. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Peter, your statement regarding Tea Partiers' desire to return to the morality of the 1950s is so absurd that I mock you for making it. You said, "Let's see, 50 years ago brought us the cynicism and waste of the Vietnam War, CIA plots against left-wing governments, a revival of the Ku Klux Klan and the murders of civil rights workers and cities aflame with trace riots."

    Oh, yeah, I'm sure that's *exactly* the kind of morality the people you talked to want to resurrect. Not! Why don't you try taking issue with what they actually believe rather than making absurd leaps of logic that they would never make, setting up and knocking down ludicrous straw men?

    As for your finding my statements about African-Americans "incredibly patronizing," there's nothing that I could say, or that any conservative could say, that you wouldn't find offensive or patronizing. But to be honest, that whole racism meme is very tiresome. You've flogged that horse to death.

  8. I recently went to a tea party convention of sorts. The American contingent was a cross section of locals, tourists, and fellow travelers.

    The third world party bus was filled to the gills with cost conscious middle class riders who stared wild eyed through the night as the Chinese driver took NASCAR great Kyle Busch's bump and run skills to a new level.

    Tea party philosophy was evident in Puerto Rican small talk at a run down breakfast nook in Chinatown.

    It was displayed in the facial expressions of a cop at the Staten Island Ferry, as he called EMS to retrieve an obviously undocumented immigrant who passed out face down under the urinal row at 9 in the morning. Being multi-lingual was a job requirement as he gained the necessary information from the drunk's staggering father, but true feelings needed no interpretation.

    The party's love of country was inadvertently revealed through the hoards visiting Liberty Island, while bypassing nearby Ellis Island even though it was part of the same ticket.

    It was interesting to watch fiscal conservatism in action as the Hispanic or black hawkers on 5th Ave. shouted out their wares in English, but were then being forced to switch to broken French or German to reel in customers.

    Or having a $50 lunch in a nearly deserted micro-brewery while the line to McDonald's ran clear around the block.

    There was no political correctness on a jammed subway train as the crowd parted like a school of fish when a urine tainted crack head boarded, leaving me isolated to share a pole next to the door.

    I'm sure some will say that this is the city. It's always like that. Which is all well and good until you consider what this particular city is supposed to represent.

    Much like the American Dream, this city's mythic persona portrayed by politics and media does not transgress the realism on the street.

    My walkabout was quite gut feeling informative, but very tiring. I still didn't sleep on the bus ride home.

  9. The "idea" that government can "force" you to set aside money for your retirement and old health health care is apparently "different" from the idea that the government can "force" you to set aside money to pay for health care that you will need.

    My view is that if Cooch succeeds that the wing nuts with Dick Armey's salivating support will then use that decision to unravel social security and Medicare.

    Make no mistake that's what some of these folks are after.

    The biggest surprise is that many of the folks who oppose Obama Care think they are "owed" Social Security and Medicare.

    If the Republicans/Cooch were really serious about govt involvement in health care and interstate commerce – they'd sue the Feds over EMTALA which is the biggest welfare program in the history of the country and rewards those who won't take care of themselves and depend on the government for their safety net.

    These folks are Grade A hypocrites in my mind.

    Absolutely the only difference between Medicare and Obama_Care is the age 65.

    Other than that – the idea that the government can "force" you to pay a tax on Health Care is exactly the same.

    FICA is a Fed tax for Health Care that applies to every person in every state.

    Where's the Cooch lawsuite on that?

  10. Groveton Avatar

    The more the liberals rant about the Tea Party the more powerful it becomes. Until today I could honestly say that I have never met a Tea Party member (at least that I know of). However, given the liberal hysterics about the Tea Party Jim Bacon went to a rally and now self-identifies as a Team Party Patriot. So, I guess I now must say that I know one Tea Party member (or affiliate or whatever). Given the rantings of liberals … I am betting that I'll soon know many more than one. Every time there is a rally of a couple thousand folks the liberal media screeches like a hoot owl. This intrigues people. They go to see "what all the fuss is". Some probably turn away. Some (like Jim Bacon) adopt the philosophy.

    The conservative Republicans are hopelessly disorganized. One need only remember the Sarah Palin VP nomination to understand that. Yet however disorganized the conservative Republicans may be their lack of organization pales in comparison to the downright stupidity of liberals. All the liberals ever had to do to kill the Tea Party was to ignore it. That would have kept the conservatives disorganized and (politically) looking from the outside in. However, liberals have dirrhea of the mouth. They just can't help themselves. Now, the disorganized conservatives have an organizing force catalyzed by the very liberals who despise them.

    Talk about cutting your nose to spite your face.

    This November I will face a choice – disorganized conservatives or stupid liberals. Both are bad. Maybe I'll just vote against every incumbent and "no" to every proposal by government.

    It's time for a third party. The xIP – where x = your state and IP = Independent Party. I'd join the Virginia Independent Party. Others would join the Maryland Independent Party. Etc, etc. The rules for membership are simple … you have to be a complete secular iconoclast. The VIP presently has one member … me. However, since the xIP movement recognizes members who pay taxes in a state even if they aren't resident of that state, the Maryland Independent Party also has one member … also me.

    Anybody else care to join? I already consider EMR an xIP member in hiding. Maybe he'll be the second person to come over to xIP Party. And, one thing for sure, it will be a party. I see no reason to refrain from drinking beer while talking about tearing down the institutions of government.

    Applications now being accepted. Please send your name and address along with a picture of you drinking beer to Groveton@GMail.Com.

  11. Gooze Views Avatar
    Gooze Views

    Jim,
    Morality of 50 years ago is a direct quote from a participant at the New Kent Tea Party I attended on Sept. 28. If you think that it is absurd, it is your choice.
    I stand by my patronization statement. A few black speakers does not a cooperative movement make. You chose to run that embedded speech (was it by Jackson?) as if to make some inclusivity point. Yes the Tea Party may be genuinely open to non-whites. But very few choose to join. I wonder why? This is the truth no matter what kind of spin you want to put on it.
    You may find my bringing this up tiresome. To me, you are getting tiresome for stubbornly refusing to rcognize the racial realities around you.

    Peter Galuszka

  12. re: Conservative Republicans, Tea party, Third- Party

    Groveton my man – tell me what party the Tea Party folks who get elected are going to caucus with?

    Who will determine what committees they sit on?

    A TRUE 3RD party starts out small and independent and grows to be a viable – and independent 3rd Party that shoots to take the majority and determine the Committee Chairs and committee assignments.

    This Tea Party walks and talks like nothing more than a stealth arm of the existing and long standing Conservative right wing of the Republican Party.

    The clueless middle who are jumping on the Tea Party bandwagon are rubes with turnip truck stains all over their britches….

    Follow the money …. it leads right back to folks like Koch and Armey.

  13. Anonymous Avatar

    Thank you for the confirmation on the Atty Gen’s popularity among Tea Partyers.

    You said:

    “Also, Observer, you seem to be perfectly comfortable with the idea of the federal leviathan state.”

    Where in the following text do you find grounds for such an actuation?

    “I do not see anything in Mr. Bacon's post that differs from the definition of Tea Partyers as those expressing what Prof Risse calls ‘The Anger of Ignorance.’

    “They were given a megaphone by the well to do wing of a political Clan that believes it will benefit their short term interests.”

    I have as much disdain for misallocation of governance powers as anyone, including Prof. Risse.

    What I was pointing out is that you give Tea Partyers a whole lot of credit for making noise, and seem to be like to tossing them red meat to reward noise, not ideas or bothering to understand what they are talking about. That is just because some of them bought your book? How many of them will read it before they next go to a rally and protest ‘big government’?

    Where can we find in your recent posts specifics about how to meaningfully reallocate powers and responsibilities?

    Do you believe taking powers from the Feds and giving them to the current ‘states’ will help anyone but the Clan in power at the state level?

    How about getting rid of the interstate commerce clause and giving that power to Regions?

    Observer

  14. Anonymous Avatar

    Groveton:

    I happen to know that EMR has never been a member of any political Clan. I asked him.

    He tells a story of not getting a job he had applied for, interviewed for and been told he was the best qualified for because he refused to ‘do one other thing” and join the dominate political party in the jurisdiction.

    But iIP is not enough to my way of thinking. Neither is railing against ‘big government.’ There are not enough resources left to support conflict (aka, competition) in the sphere of citizen interests. Prof Risse states this case in his Voters Guide and I agree with him.

    Observer

  15. one of the other interesting things about the Tea Party is the simultaneous opposite messages than emanate from their direction – the most apparent of is the idea that at the same time – Govt has failed them but should not be be involved either.

    So they're angry at the outsourcing the companies do (and the Republicans want to preserve that ability) but at the same time they want and expect govt to stop outsourcing.

    The reason we are hearing the simultaneous messages is that the Conservative Republican hard core in the Tea Party has the anti-Gov, anti-regulation view while the new recruits clearly believe that Govt has failed to protect them from companies sending jobs overseas and taking tax breaks to convert into overseas capital.

    The hard core Republicans are opposed to Medicare and SS while the Tea Party Recruits want to keep it but who fear it not being around when they need it – stoked on by the hard cores.

    Tax Cuts produce jobs but stimulus does not.

    the hard core think tax cuts are not stimulus because it lets the recipients decide how to spend it – including sending it overseas to invest whereas the govt wants stimulus spent here on this economy.

    the rubes thus believe that tax cuts are not creating deficits just as stimulus does because the hard core tells them that tax cuts create jobs and stimulus does not.

    Part of our problem is that we have many, many people who are simply not economically literate unable to really understand how modern economies work but are convinced that the rich have managed to get control of the economic apparatus to serve their needs at the expense of ordinary people.

    They do not recognize at all that the hard core Conservatives believe that this is the way it should be and are opposed to regulations that would protect ordinary people.

    Yet when they gather in convention centers – the message being promoted is what?

    That's the point.

    It's not "A" message.

    It's simultaneous – conflicting messages coming at once from the ordinary folks frustrated at special interest corruption of govt – mixed with the hard core Conservative message than financial regulation is bad because it limits the ability of those who have money to parlay it into more money even if it comes at the expense of ordinary people whose jobs get sent overseas.

  16. Groveton Avatar

    "Tax Cuts produce jobs but stimulus does not.

    the hard core think tax cuts are not stimulus because it lets the recipients decide how to spend it – including sending it overseas to invest whereas the govt wants stimulus spent here on this economy.

    the rubes thus believe that tax cuts are not creating deficits just as stimulus does because the hard core tells them that tax cuts create jobs and stimulus does not.".

    Stimulus funds might be a great way to increase employment. However, you need a competent person / people / organization (s) deciding how to spend the stimulus funds. The federal government is economically incompetent. They might as well burn the stimulus dollars in topless oil barrels on street corners during winter. At least they'd generate some warmth. Are independent tax – payers more or less economically competent than the federal government? My vote is "more". Therefore, I think keeping the present tax cuts will help America more than sending additional funds to Washington for various politicians to disburse. You can rant and rage all you want. However, my belief that the wisdome of the crowd trumps the wisdom of the ruling class is perfectly reasonable – even if you disagree. I suppose I am just one of those rubes who fell off the turnip truck for holding this belief. According to Obama I am just one of those sad people clinging to guns and God. So, in aggregate, I am a gun-clinging rube who fell off the turnip truck despite praying. I kind of like that description.

    Gooze – I thought the Million Man March was a good idea. In fact, the VIP would have supported the MMM if there had been a VIP in 1995. However, white people were clearly under-represented in that march. The VIP doesn't care about demographics so long as people are making intellectual progress with personal accountability and mistrust of big government. However, demographics bother you a lot. So, were the organizers and marchers in the Million Man March racists because African Americans were statistically over-represented in that march? I have performed a census of the membership of the VIP and the sister organization Maryland Independent Party. We do not consider either the Tea Party or the Million Man March to be racist. However, we would like to see more Million Man Marches and fewer Tea Party rallies. Nothing against the Tea Party – we just think it's been overplayed recently.

    With one hand on my revolver and another holding a cross and rubbing my head from the turnip truck fall … I remain,

    Sincerely,

    Groveton.

  17. Gooze Views Avatar
    Gooze Views

    Well, gee, Groveton, we can't exactly time machine us back to 1995 to see how the "Patriots" would react to the MMM, can we?

    Peter Galuszka

  18. Groveton Avatar

    Peter:

    It doesn't matter what "the Patriots" say (anyway, who cares about Tom Brady, et al).

    What matters is what you say.

    You look at the Tea Party and declare them racists because you don't see enough African – Americans.

    Did you look at the Million Man March and declare them racists because there were "too few" white people?

  19. re: stimulus "spending".

    you're confusing the idea that stimulus has a direct economic purpose – with whether or not what it is spent for is "useful".

    but that money could be spent on totally frivolous things – like game boys or chicken costumes and still achieve it's intended purpose of putting money into the economy and whatever it is spent on – will create jobs.

    You could argue that the money should be spent on Humvees or highways or school buses but it simply would not matter what the good or service is – as long as it is produced in this country.

    The Republicans say that people will spent it smarter than the government.

    That's not necessarily true.

    Is buying a 32inch big screen TV a "good" purpose ?

    How about a trip to Disney' World?

    is that a "good" purpose?

    how about a new car – a VW.

    is that a "good" purpose?

    The govt has a very specific purpose in the stimulus – that it get quickly and directly into the AMERICAN economy.

    When you give that money to others – they will not necessarily spend it to benefit the American economy.

    they could put it in a bank account. Or buy a foreign-produced product or pay off a mortgage and the money goes to Wall Street where it gets used in ways that may not benefit the economy.

    but if you listen to the Republicans and the Tea Pots – it's bad bad Obama…

    spending money we don't have on stimulus is terrible but spending money we didn't have on Humvees and body armor was for a "good" purpose.

    I won't dispute whether money for those purposes was "good" or not but that same money spent on school buses and textbooks – accomplishes the same thing in terms of jobs.

    Now Groveton says when the govt spends money on "things" it's hopelessly corrupt and incompetent unless of course we spend it on Humvees or Border Patrol jeeps.. eh?

  20. Gooze Views Avatar
    Gooze Views

    Groveton,
    Please underline for me where I said the TPers were racist.This MMM anaology is your supposition.
    PG

  21. Groveton Avatar

    Peter:

    Your point is well taken. Perhaps I misunderstand you. So, let me ask, "Do you think the Tea Party movement or a significant percentage of its adherents are racist(s)?".

    If not … please accept my apologies for putting words in your mouth.

  22. Uh oh…

    (Reuters) – More than two-thirds of U.S. state attorneys general plan this week to launch a joint probe into charges some banks used fraudulent paperwork to kick struggling borrowers out of their homes,

    Where's Kenny?

  23. Groveton Avatar

    "you're confusing the idea that stimulus has a direct economic purpose – with whether or not what it is spent for is "useful".

    but that money could be spent on totally frivolous things – like game boys or chicken costumes and still achieve it's intended purpose of putting money into the economy and whatever it is spent on – will create jobs.

    You could argue that the money should be spent on Humvees or highways or school buses but it simply would not matter what the good or service is – as long as it is produced in this country.".

    LarryG – you can't really believe what you just wrote – can you?

    Let's take two examples of potential stimulus fund spending.

    1. The money is used to buy gold on the open market. Then, Americans are hired to take the gold in boats into the middle of Lake Michigan and throw it into that (American) lake. The "gold throwers" would be Americans employed in America.

    2. The money is used to fund basic R&D on alternative energy development at American companies by American scientists in America. Any patents created by the government funded R&D will be owned by the US government rather than the companies where the tax funded research was done. US companies may use the patents free of charge if the resultant product development and product manufacture is done in the US. Otherwise, companies have to pay substantial royalties back to the US government.

    The first is obviously a bad idea. The second may be a bad idea too since it smacks of protectionism. However, idea #1 will generate very few jobs for the money spent while idea #2 might generate quite a few American jobs.

    Stimulus funds should be seen as a payment by the American public to the ruling class. The payment is made for the same reason you would make a payment to your stockbroker – you expect a good return. Good stockbrokers will spend the money wisely. Bad stockbrokers will fritter your money away. Both will make "investments". However, not all investments are created equal. Neither are all ideas on spending stimulus funds.

    Do you really want the US Government making investments for you?

    I don't.

    I don't trust the politicians who run the government.

    I think they'll use the money on any half-baked idea which will buy them votes.

    If I had the option of either giving the government my money to invest or not – I wouldn't.

    If the government opened a wealth management service it would get very few voluntary dollars.

    I believe in free choice. LarryG – if you believe that your money will get a good return if spent by the government – send them some extra dough this April 15.

  24. putting stimulus money to "good use" is the same argument as whether or not any other govt money is or is not but it is a separate argument as to it's primary purpose which is to infuse money into the economy because the private sector is not.

    In terms of "good uses", I could rattle off hundreds and thousands of ways that money is frivolously spent by "smarter" taxpayers while ignoring their basic needs – like retirement and health insurance,etc.

    The sad truth is that people are not always "smarter" than the govt or else they would not be expecting the govt to be the one to take care of them when they have "needs".

    We have the biggest welfare system in our history for EMTALA because people will not buy Health care insurance.

    Blame that on the govt being "incompetent" and "corrupt".

    The govt spends money on all manner of things from interstate highways to NTSB to NIH to Humvees to health care for kids.

    Your idea of what is "dumb" govt spending is different from others even though BOTH of you will agree that the Govt spends "dumb" for each of your separate examples.

    Your Humvee or tax dollars for Cooch are a total waste of govt dollars in some folks views but perhaps not yours.

    What we spend it for when it comes to stimulus (or just non-stimulus govt-spending) – we may never agree on in terms of whether it is a "good" purpose or not..

    The amount of money we spend on soldiers, their equipment and their lifetime VA care is obscene and unwarranted as a tax expenditure but make no mistake – it does provide jobs and puts money into the economy.

    NoVa and Hampton Roads exists primarily because of the more traditional kind of govt "stimulus."

    The same corrupt and incompetent govt in your view spends and spends and NoVa wins and wins because of it.

    People in the other parts of the country including many Tea Party folks think that govt spending in NoVa is BAD… and example of BAD govt….that needs to be "reined in".

    So Groveton.

    Is the Tea Party right? Is all this spending in NoVa an example of a corrupt and incompetent government?

  25. Groveton Avatar

    LarryG … let's try again.

    Do you think the federal government is more economically competent than the avgerage citizen when it comes to the effective spending of money?

    In other words, would you rather return the money to the citizens (in the form of lower or at least "not raised" taxes) and let the citizens spend the money or let the federal government take more money from the people and then "round-trip" that money in a new stimulus?

    I have no problem with that question. I would rather see the money returned to the people and take my chances with their spending decisions than give Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and Eric Cantor the chance to spend my money.

    Now it's your turn … which would you prefer … higher taxes and moe governemnt stimulus or lower taxes and let the people decide when, where and how to spend the money.

  26. Groveton – I know you mean well but…

    do you think the average person would rather have the tax dollars expended for education and do you think they'd use it to better educate their kids?

    No SOME PEOPLE – MOST PEOPLE?

    If you DO BELIEVE THIS then why don't you advocate for the abolition of public schools because obviously the govt is wasting our money.

    Ditto for roads.

    Do you think that roads are better provided by people spending directly rather than being taxed for them?

    do you think the National Transportation Safety Board is better off tax funded or funded by citizens directly?

    CDC, FAA, Border Patrol?

    how are why do you justify tax dollars for SOME things but not others – on the basis that citizens know better on what to spend the money on?

    Groveton – my wife teaches kids who have a mouth full of cavities, no winter coats – and game boys and cell phones.

    you tell me guy.

    you're looking at a black & white world from your perspective.

    and your fellow Tea Party folks are also doing it.

    but your black/white views don't match even though you probably have some overlaps.

    If you do not believe the govt knows what is "good" then you should be against the basic purpose of public schools and public roads.

    If you are not and you think they are needed then how do you reconcile that?

    Are you not essentially arbitrarily and subjectively deciding what you think the govt is better at than citizens?

  27. Groveton – do you think tax dollars should be spent on Sports in High Schools?

    do you think that is a "good" use of tax dollars?

    we're about to find out if, despite your self-avowed anti-liberal rants – if you are, indeed a liberal at heart.

    answer up guy.

    what's the purpose of tax dollars for public schools?

    This "liberal" says that it should be limited to academics only that are directly related to becoming a self-supporting adult and taxpayer – you know – like most other countries …those "socialist" countries like Japan and Europe do.

    Do you support "socialist" school funding policies in Fairfax?

  28. Groveton Avatar

    LarryG – your ad absurdum arguments are so ridiculous they are self-mocking.

    Really, they are not credible.

    In fact, they are kind of embarrasing to read.

    Let's take the Tea Party proposal. Namely, to reduce government spending from 25% of GDP to 18% of GDP.

    At 18% the government could still fund public schools. So, please stop insisting that a reduction in the size of government will require such absurd things as the abolition of public schools.

    Your arguments are no different that a right win fanatic who insists that Obama is not an American citizen.

    Really … your agruments are at the same level as those of the birthers.

    See if you can stick to that idea.

    There is no proposal from anybody to reduce government spending to 0% of GDP. That hobgoblin exists only in your mind.

  29. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Be afraid, Peter, be very afraid. The Democratic Party is losing its monopoly hold on African-Americans. The imminent election of Tim Scott in South Carolina is evidence of that.

    You're going to have to ratchet up your rhetoric. It won't be enough to insinuate that Republicans and Tea Partiers are racist. To scare African-Americans back onto the liberal plantation, you'll have to accuse them of plotting to revive lynching and reinstituting slavery!

  30. People who cannot accept the truth are normal people. See my story about the stolen orange juice. My office mate was looking in his desk drawers and the wastebasket for his orange juice because he KNEW it had to be there, when obviously it wasn't. The evidence was clear, but he could not accept it.

    Completely normal and utterly irrational.

    ==================================

    You cannot have a free market and at the same time expect to bend it to benefit the American economy.

    =================================
    Independent tax – payers may be more economically competent than the federal government, but individually they are economically impotent. Considering our national savigs rate, there is nothing to suggest we/they are economically competent.

    Government is prohibited from having an endowment (excess taxes) but it is not prohibited from having debt. there fore the structure of government spending is artifically tilted in a way that individuals don't have to contend with.

    We make laws that force government to act a certain way, and then we complain about how it acts.

    ================================

    Government cannot spend money without taking it from someone. That person is always going to think he has a better use for it than government. But the individual cannot amass big chunks of money to get big things done, unless he forms a corporation, which is a form of government.

    Corporations are limited in that their only reason for existence is to make money for their investors, and they can only operate in the commercial market. it is therefore specious to assume that corporations or people always spend money "better" than government does.

    Government makes errors (wastes money) because it frequently deals in the unpriced market. It is inefficient because it lacks the clear price signals that constrain business in the commercial market.

    At the same time, we have government precisely because business does not operate in the unpriced market, and yet frequently takes advantage of it to make money at other peoples expense.

    Business complains about government and yet much of government exits because business refuses to be fully accountable for its actions. And frequently, what governemt does is good for business, or some of them anyway.

    Health isnurance reform happened because of abuses in the health insurance business, not because of some leftist socialist conspiracy. And strangely enough, it is going to turn out to be the full employment act for insurors because they will wind up with more customers than ever.

    =================================

    When unemployment figures dipped recently some factions were quick to pooh pooh the results because they said it only reflected temporary hires by the census bureau.

    These are the same folks who say government stimulus does not work. Sure enough, this government spending was temporary and when it stopped, unemployment went back up.

    Would we have been better off if the governemtn did no census and those people were never working temporarily, collected unemployment straight through?

    Would private enterprise ever do the census for us? Only if they were paid by the government.

    The census is an investment that the government will make and Private enterprise won't. There are of course maketing firms that do census type work, but it is narrowly targeted towards selling things.

  31. Let's take the Tea Party proposal. Namely, to reduce government spending from 25% of GDP to 18% of GDP.

    ==================================

    Government spending has been remarkabley stable as a percentage of GDP, for decades. It runs from 25 to 30% regardless of which flavor of administration, and it aso amounts to 25 to 30% of the economy.

    A cut from 25% to 18% amounts to cutting a third of all government activity and it would result in an immediate 10% drop in the general economy, if not more.

    The tea party would find out in a hurry about government stimulus if they pull this off.

    What's not credible is how they propose to do this, since it is unlikely they will cut a third across the board, some areas will get hurt more than others, at which point special interests will spring to action to fight the teabaggers.

    It is going to be just as hard to agree on what bad government spending looks like as it is to decide on what counts for good spending. Just as you want a good return on money you give the government to spend, you ant to lose as little as possible when you take money way.

    One is just as hard to measure as the other because the government works in the unpriced economy.

    What is the value of a drivers license? We could just stop issuing them and let anyone drive. It would save government a lot of wasted money.

    Then, if you screw up while driving, make the penalties really severe and strictly enforce the driving laws.

    OOOps, that means more government.

  32. Groveton Avatar

    I've been watching the Tim Scott story. He seems, on the surface, like a great candidate. When I noted that the Tea Party candidates are generally weak candidate I also noted that there were exceptions. Tim Scott is such an execption.

    This is my favorite quote from Tim Scott, "When you fail Spanish and English, you are not bilingual, you are bi-ignorant.".

    Personal accountability.

    An ardent Tea Party supporter. I'll take that as indicitive of a mistrust of big government (Note to LarryG – not a call for no government, a mistrust of big governement).

    I need to make sure that Mr. Scott is aware of the xIP program. It would be great to have the first member of the SCIP (South Carolina Independent Party) on board. Unfortunately, I am confident that Mr. Scott will find his free spending Republican collegues in Congress only slightly less frustrating than his free spending opponents in the Democratic Party. So, philosophically, I see Mr. Scott as a very compelling person for the SCIP.

  33. The "absurd" and the Tea Party "proposal".

    there is no Tea Party "proposal".

    The Tea Party is a cacophony of voices advocating wildly diverse things – at times self-contradictory.

    They're like a box of chocolates so that folks like Groveton can latch on to the pieces they like while ignoring the ones they don't like – and still say they "support" the concept of Chocolates.

    Mixed Nuts is probably a better description.

    My questions to Groveton were not absurd at all.

    The Feds NCLB and the State SOQ/SOLS fund ONLY academics and not sports or extra-curricular for the very reason that I stated – that has everything to do with tax dollars – and socialism and "liberal" do-gooding.

    Who should pay for school sports if not Federal or State Taxpayers?

    Groveton thinks local taxpayers should.

    I take a conservative view that these things are not appropriate for tax dollars.

    I take the same approach on roads.

    Local roads should be local responsibility – not folks who live in other parts of the State.

    And roads that connect the State – they should be paid for by the people that use them – via tolls.

    As Groveton flings the socialist label – he is himself, a socialist because he believes in taking money from people to give to other people – for the things he likes.

    I'm doing some major tweaking here – it's true.

    I'm pointing out the sheer hypocrisy in the Tea Pot and some of Groveton's positions that allege the govt is too corrupt and incompetent unless of course they are funding the things the wants.

  34. I believe we should pay taxes for schools but I believe that our schools MUST turn out competitively-educated students who can effectively hold their own against the educated workforces of the other industrialized countries instead of ranking 15th as we do.

    We end up where we are by spending money on sports and extracurricular at the same time that 25% of our students either don't graduate or even if they do are functionally illiterate and will grow up unable to pay taxes and needing entitlements from other taxpayers.

    What is corrupt and incompetent is that parents have corrupted our schools so they are incompetent at achieving their original intended purpose.

    these would be the same folks jumping up and down about the incompetent govt – which if you think about it – at the local level – is US.

    The same folks who say that govt that is closest to the people – have corrupted our schools by misusing tax dollars for purposes they were never intended for.

    We choose to pay for sports – at the same time we refuse to fully fund the academics that would put those kids in a competitive position for world class jobs.

    We are generating more and more kids who grow up not equipped to get jobs that pay enough for them to be taxpayers, get their own health insurance, or accumulate enough for retirement and as a result they don't pay taxes, and, in fact, need entitlements provided by other taxpayers.

    I've not heard one Tea Pot complain about our corrupt and incompetent education system but I've heard most of them complain about entitlements and nanny state responses to the consequences of our incompetent education system.

    We need to get rid of tax-payer-provided competitive sports and other non-academic amenities and let the parents who want these things be responsible for them.

    Our schools need to turn out world-class educated workers not what they are doing right now and we do not have big govt to blame for this failure because it happens at the local level … no Federal or State tax dollars pay for sports or extracurricular – local tax dollars do.

  35. Our schools need to turn out world-class educated workers not what they are doing right now …

    ==================================

    I think we need to turn out people who are smart enough to know what to do with their leisure time: they may have a lot of it.

  36. Local roads should be local responsibility – not folks who live in other parts of the State.

    ================================

    Sure, make local roads and local schools local responsibilities and ensure that some communities never have anything but the worst.

    Give up on the toll roads. It is a truly, truly, terrible idea with almost no redeeming virtues.

  37. Over at Carpe Diem MJPerry has raised the question of the proper role of government this way:

    "

    1. Do you support the forced redistribution of income?

    2. Do you support the forced redistribution of blood? After all: a) someone needs blood every two seconds, b) one in seven people entering a hospital need blood, and c) one pint of blood can save up to three lives.

    If your answers to the two questions are not the same, you have a problem on your hands…"

  38. The Interstate Highway system is a clear and obvious example of "big govt" at work.

    First, they put a Federal Tax on gasoline and collect it.

    Then when they give it back to you, they put strings on it – in the case of Interstates – uniform planning, design and construction standards.

    Those who are opposed to big govt could insist that the Federal Gas Tax be abolished and let the localities decide how to build and maintain interstate highways.

    This would be govt closer to the people. Taxes reduced and literally the "Home Rule" that Groveton espouses.

    You pay your taxes locally, elected or un-elect local leaders per their performance and if you want Interstate Highways – you get together with other communities and fund them.

    Those who say that big govt is corrupt and incompetent should be happy to get that corrupt and incompetent govt out of the Interstate Highway business.

    no?

    or ..is the truth.. that the big bad incompetent govt is thr right entity to build interstate highways?

  39. "- you get together with other communities and fund them…."

    ============================

    Ummm.

    Isn't that exactly what we did?

    The communities (states) got together and formed and organization to fund the interstates, and it was called the federal government.

    It funds a lot of other stuff for the communities, too.

    With money that it gets from the communities.

  40. No they are different and the difference is who sets the national standards.

    If communities got together they would not be taxed by the entity that is setting the standards by rather set by the agreeing localities.

    For instance, instead of using the GREEN signs of a certain size and where they are located – from a single national standard, each community group would decide what they wanted and were willing to pay for.

    then the communities would decide how much to tax.

    The Interstate Highway system was originally designed as a TOLL system so that no taxes would have to be collected but it was determined that the rural portions could not be built and be self-supporting and that then drove the tax direction but it was estimated to require only a few cents not 17.

  41. No they are different and the difference is who sets the national standards.

    If communities got together they would not be taxed by the entity that is setting the standards by rather set by the agreeing localities.

    ================================

    Don't the states have to agree, through their delagates to the feds, to be taxed?

    Isn't it the same with any standards setting organization? IEEE sets national standards, no?

  42. The Feds set – and enforce the standards as a condition of getting your taxes back to spend on your needs.

    Some feel that this kind of a process is "abusive" in that you don't even get all of your taxes back to spend at your discretion not only with regard to standards but priorities.

    For instance, 3 cents out of the gas tax gets dedicated to transit and if you, as a locality do not have transit or want it – you won't get that part of it back.

    Even for highways – some of it is dedicated to specific purposes – like bridges rather than say a local road.

    On the other hand what would the interstate highway system look like if everybody and their dog decided how wide the lanes would be in their jurisdicition… how far apart the ramps, what size and color of signage, etc?

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