Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

Ignoring the Real Issues

—

by

James A. Bacon
in

As the gubernatorial race heats up, one might think that the candidates will go a step further with some real issues facing Virginia.
Former Atty. Gen. Bob McDonnell, for instance, seems so fixated on sex crime that he has some kind of plan to fit sex offenders with global positioning devices. His Democratic opponent, Creigh Deeds hasn’t seized the initiative on too many issues or even over-the-top ones such as the GPS-around-the-ankle idea.
Yet there are real issues out there. Here’s one. Check out this recent study by the Lumina Foundation for Education. It ranks states according to an “Education Needs Index.” Some states with the greatest needs are North and South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas and the San Fernando Valley of California and western New Mexico. No surprise there, really. These are areas with lots of poor minorities and tight-wad state legislatures although Texas and North Carolina do have outstanding public college systems.
How does Virginia score? Not all that well, thank you, despite some better-than-U.S.-average rates in high school diplomas, median income, and college degrees.
A county-by-county review shows that Virginia’s most critical needs for education are in some of its most remote and most impoverished areas. On the “most critical list” are coalfield counties such as Lee, Wise, Dickenson and Russell. Also on the list is the lint-head belt where textile manufacturing was taking body blows long before this recession. They include Pittsylvania and Mecklenburg. Rounding out the most critical are Southside and/or Tidewater peanut and tobacco lands including Greensville, Southampton and Sussex Counties.
There’s also a “critical” list and these counties tend to border the most critical, including all of the Eastern Shore. The only truly OK places are Northern Virginia, Charlottesville and (surprisingly) a good chunk of the Peninsula and Middle Neck. Big cities such as Hampton Roads and Richmond are somewhere in the middle.
Besides education needs, there are always health issues. A year or two ago, the Washington Post magazine ran an intriguing story about how folks in the coalfield counties of Appalachia came out in force for a weekend of free medical and dental insurance. Why? They can’t afford health insurance.
Some of the Lumina Foundation’s data is a bit old, going back to 2005. But it is still relevant.
And the candidates would both do well to take a look at this material. Tracking sex offenders may get votes, but is it really as pressing a need as making sure that Virginians are well educated and healthy?
Peter Galuszka

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74 responses to “Ignoring the Real Issues”

  1. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    It's par for the course for the "righties" and no surprises other than he tipped his hand on how he intends to govern.. sounds like George Allen's approach.

    But Deeds nor McDonnel, truth be known, will win votes in the urban areas by talking about the State (further) funding (transferring revenues from the urbanized areas) .. the "needs" of the poorer regions of Virginia.

    Of course our urban folks – through their prodigious use of electricity are.. "using" those areas of Virginia to keep them supplied with their favorite tonic (electricity).

    It looks to me that, once again, we have a choice between bad and worse.. yuck!

    Peter – are you the only person holding this Blog together these days?

    I'm not clear on just what has happened such that Bacon has essentially moved on…

    sometimes I need a short summary of what has happened

    …. 😉

    who "owns" and operates this blog now?

    how long can we expect BR to be in this condition… or ultimately just drop out?

  2. Gooze Views Avatar
    Gooze Views

    Larry,
    It's Ed Risse and me. Jim B. hasn't really be contributing and is off on other work but wants to keep the blog going.

    The e-zine part of Bacons Rebellion has been taken over by the Thomas Jefferson policy group, which seems to be made up of right-wing, no government types with a lot of links to conservative think tanks and lobby groups. I have told Jim that this was a big mistake since they regularly state stuff with no backup. He may be agreeing with me now, but I'mnot sure anything will change.
    EMR and I do this one for free, of course.
    PG

  3. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    I like your posts Peter and sometimes I can put up with EMR's posts… but I miss JB's take on things… to be honest.

    Can we recruit a couple more like you and EMR to stir things up a little bit more?

    I have to admit.. part of what I miss is the govt policy wonk shtick that JB brought to the Bog … and not dissing you at all.. you have your own unique but different slant on things…

  4. Gooze Views Avatar
    Gooze Views

    Larry,
    I don't know what to tell you. Why don't you talk to Jim? I agree with everything you say, but I don't own the blog, he does. In its heyday, BR was getting national attention.
    PG

  5. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    First, Peter: Thank you for putting up something to replace that goofy picture of you and your mud covered friend – or is that two of your mud covered friends?, either way…

    We will put up a comment on the Woodstock string from a different perspective on the issue.

    Second, Your post on Education is right on.

    And there are other election related issues that need airing too – we will do an item on the lack of Transportation Strategies.

    We also have some other items partly done.

    Larry:

    Sorry, there is only one Jim Bacon. I do have some responses to your earlier comments on various topics that I will try to get in the hopper to keep you from going to sleep – or thinking you really making sense :>)

    EMR

  6. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The real issus is that Virginia is a low tax state.

    The chickens are coming home to roost.

    You get what you pay for.

    RH

  7. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Yeah Ray. Let's make it a high tax state. That'll fix everything!

  8. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204409904574350432677038184.html#mod=article-outset-box

    The New American Dream: Renting

    excerpts:

    " We are a nation of homeowners and home-speculators because of Uncle Sam."

    " at the same time that Uncle Sam brought the dream of home ownership to reality—he kept his role mostly hidden, except to the army banking, real-estate and construction lobbyists who rose to protect their industries' newfound gains"

    " Federal housing policies changed the whole landscape of America, creating the sprawlscapes that we now call home, and in the process, gutting inner cities, whose residents, until the civil rights legislation of 1968, were largely excluded from federally backed mortgage programs. Of new housing today, 80% is built in suburbs—the direct legacy of federal policies that favored outlying areas rather than the rehabilitation of city centers. It seemed that segregation was just the natural working of the free market, the result of the sum of countless individual choices about where to live. But the houses were single—and their residents white—because of the invisible hand of government."

    " James Truslow Adams, the historian who coined the phrase "the American dream," one that he defined as "a better, richer, and happier life for all our citizens of every rank" also offered a prescient commentary in the midst of the Great Depression. "That dream," he wrote in 1933, "has always meant more than the accumulation of material goods." Home should be a place to build a household and a life, a respite from the heartless world, not a pot of gold."

    moral of the story – the same big bad govt that people don't want involved in things like healthcare and the same big bad govt that sucks up our taxes

    .. has played and continues to play a huge role in settlement patterns and the consequent infrastructure needs to serve commuting…

  9. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    A lot of confused thinking here.

    "Some states with the greatest needs are North and South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Texas and the San Fernando Valley of California and western New Mexico. No surprise there, really. These are areas with lots of poor minorities and tight-wad state legislatures although Texas and North Carolina do have outstanding public college systems.".

    So, it's the poor minorities and immigrants that are shouldering the burden of bad school systems?

    Not in Virginia.

    In Fairfax County, arguably the state's best school system serves a county where 30% of the population is foreign born.

    "On the "most critical list" are coalfield counties such as Lee, Wise, Dickenson and Russell.".

    Lee County – 98.44% white / 0.51% hispanic, Wise County – 96.88% white, 0.73% hispanic, Dickenson – 98.96% white, 0.43% hispanic, Russell – 96.07% white, 0.78% hispanic.

    For comparison purposes – Fairfax County – 72.91% white, 11.03% hispanic.

  10. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Peter – I see your comments as a somewhat tired attempt to link failed public education to some kind of racial indifference. That may be true in some places but not here.

    LarryG continues the racial rhetoric with the following quote:

    "It seemed that segregation was just the natural working of the free market, the result of the sum of countless individual choices about where to live. But the houses were single—and their residents white—because of the invisible hand of government."

    We've already seen the Fairfax County racial demographics. Let's look at the state as a whole. White 75.7%, hispanic – 4.17%. So, we see that the supposedly segregated suburban enclave of Fairfax County is actually more diverse than the state as a whole. Lest you consider Fairfax County an anomoly – here are the stats for Arlington County – white – 68.94%, hispanic – 18.62%. Or, Prince William County: white – 69.93, latino – 9.74.

    The facts don't support the liberal contention that Virginia's suburbs are all racially divided, whites-only locales. The facts tell quite the opposite story. If you are looking for segregation in Virginia you'll look to somewhere other than NoVA.

    My conclusion is that some geographies in Virginia have become victims of economic change. The textile mills and rich coal fields that once supported these areas have largely gone away. The coal has been mined and the mills are now in Mexico and China. This has nothing to do with race or immigration or prejudice. Yet I still hear the same thing over and over again – "nobody from NoVA came from NoVa". It is ridiculed as a transient area. Maybe those from the "real Virginia" heaping ridicule on Northern Virginia should think again. While I am a Northern Virginia native, many of my neighbors are not. They hail from Pennsylvania, New York, California, Texas, etc. We even have quite a few from "the real Virginia". The also come from Africa, Mexico, Iran, etc. They came for the economic opportunity. They came for the schools. They did not sit mired in the stagnant economies of their hometowns. They are in aggressive pursuit of the American Dream. They are the type of people who make things happen, who drive the new economy. They do not live for generations in the shadow of depleted coal mines and closed textile mills. Their "tightwad state legislatures" simply refuse to steal money from areas of economic growth in the forlorn hope of magically sparking growth in economically stagnant areas. They reject the fundamentally socialist theory of Dillon's Rule – all money to the central government for redistribution based on the winds of politics.

    Perhaps we need a new theory for Virginia – de-populate the economic basket cases that will never regain economic momentum. Our funneling of billions and billions of dollars to the schools and to economic development for the often lilly-white depressed areas seems to have accomplished nothing. Maybe the time has come to say, "we give up" and stop the subsidies for everything except relocation to areas where economic growth is happening.

  11. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    just FYI – the quote came from an article in the Wall Street Journal and the context is important – and that context was that overall… across the nation .. in general.. we know – for a fact that this was true… and it's also true that NoVa is a fairly unique counter example – not due to any specific policy or government initiatives but simply because of the fact that because the area has our nations capital – there is, in fact, a large diverse community – and that community participates in Democracy and becomes a constituency that influences policies that are discriminatory – more effectively than areas where such constituencies are in the minority.

    Again – NoVA did not distinguish itself from RoVa as an explicit policy of "enlightenment" but rather because when you have different folks of different colors and cultures in residence because of the role of our National Capital – change is "encouraged" as indeed the whole world IS watching…..

    But even Washington DC has it core inner city issues that have ..just like most USA urban areas, experienced the policy of "redlining" which encouraged those that could – to flee to Fairfax and environs…

    as to "depopulating" the poorer, probably permanently so in the modern-day world..

    I would tweak Groveton a bit to ask if a policy of providing the kids in those areas with a top notch education so they can leave and can go find jobs where the jobs are –

    is that not essentially such a policy that you advocate?

    and …that's brings us back to whether or not – it is in the best interests of NoVa to "fund" such an endeavor…

    eh?

    Groveton – is the current path is wrong – give me an alternate plan.. perhaps one that McDonnell would get behind…

    batter up.

  12. Gooze Views Avatar
    Gooze Views

    Groveton,
    There's a serious logical lapse with your argument. Of course Fairfax ios going to compare well. It has what the vast majority of places around Virginia and the U.S. do not have — a rich Uncle Sam paying good salaries with great benefits.
    I'm sorry if pointing out the poorer and worst served areas of the country and the state annoy you, but that's reality.
    Peter Galuszka

  13. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Larry's understanding of history remains flawed. The first public school to de-segregate in Virginia was in Arlington County. No jurisidction in Northern Virginia ever closed its schools rather than integrate them (which happened in a number of localities in RoVA). The architects of massive resistance were the decendants of Pocohontas not the transplants in NoVa. George Washington and Thomas Jefferson both dishonored themselves by being slaveholders. However, Washington had the minimal decency to free his slaves upon his death. Jefferson only freed Sally Hemmings and her (and his) children. Washington died in 1799, Jefferson in 1826. The roots of RoVa racism go way back.

    "As late as 1965, fewer than 12,000 of the approximately 235,000 black students in Virginia went to desegregated schools.". (http://www.encyclopediavirginia.org/Desegregation_in_Public_Schools).

    "The US Commissioner of Education certified in April of 1965 that Fairfax County Publich Schools was in compliance with the Civil Rights Act of 1964….Fairfax County could boast that it was among the first school systems in the nation to receive the Commissioner's certification.". (Education empire – The evolution of an excellent suburban school system).

    Larry – your agruments are indicative of what's wrong in Virginia. Your arguments ignore history, facts and statistics. They are based on the fairy tale of the cultural superiority of rural life. History is re-written to support the fairy tale. The reality of ongoing racism, economic desperation and a world class drug problem (i.e. meth) is ignored as you cast from argument to argument to defend the sad and sordid state of affairs in rural America. I hear many country singers crooning about their love and devotion to their rural and small town roots. Most of them live in mansions in the suburbs of Nashville (a large city complete with an NFL team).

    Massive farm subsidies don't help. An endless welfare-like redistribution of wealth from urbanized Virginia to rural Virginia doesn't help. Spending the tobacco settlement on random, disjointed eco-job programs won't help.

    Rural and small town Virginia lack economic potential. This lack of potential is a macro trend and does not generally reflect any failure on the part of people living in rural and small town Virginia. However, the unwillingness of people to move from areas of limited economic opportunity to areas of greater economic opportunity is a failure of the people who refuse to move. America's European settlers crossed oceans on disease filled ships to find a better life. Yet suggesting that people move from Galax to Fairfax to find economic opportunity is a politically incorrect statement.

    The original European immigrants to America included the "rugged individualists" who supposedly populated rural Virginia. To this day I still hear the insufferable yammering of people from rural and small town Virginia about their self-sufficiency, their rugged individualism, their disdain for government. Yet, concurrently, those same people are dependent on handouts from urban and suburban Virginia for everything from their roads to their schools to their prisons.

    Spare me.

  14. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Peter:

    My real objection was your attempt to link a lack of educational opportunity to immigrants and minorities. In your post, which mixed national and Virginia based issues, you missed the point. In Virginia, many of the places with the worst educational systems are among the least diverse parts of the state. Lee County's educational problems have nothing to do with immigrants or minorities since they have virtually none of either. Their problems revolve around too many people living in an area with too little economic opportunity. I'm sorry if pointing out that the real problem of economic potential vs. population annoys you, but that's reality.

    You aren't getting it. Fairfax County has what all successful places in the United States have – an economic base. New York has Wall Street, San Francisco has technology, LA has entertainment and NoVA has Washington. Where is the economic base in SW Va? It isn't there. The liberal attempt to equate the lack of a good educational system to economic prosperity fails to consider causality. A strong education systems does not drive economic potential. Economic potential drives a good education system. McAuliffe had it right all along. The first three priorities for Virginia are jobs, jobs and jobs. McDonnell gets this a whole lot better than Deeds gets it. And both of them seem to get it a whole lot better than you or LarryG.

  15. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    re: " based on the fairy tale of the cultural superiority of rural life."

    I must not be communicating very well.

    I have no such illusions about rural Va nor their outrageous treatment of non-whites – which some of them would still do if they could.

    My view is that NoVa was changed by it's happenstance location not by enlightened leaders – at least any more or less than other areas.

    you're essentially arguing that the people of NoVa are "better" than others and that, in turn, is why NoVa is such an enlightened place and the rural areas.. cultural armpits inhabited by the cultural equivalent of curs….

    I argue that location more than anything else has had a tremendous impact on people – through no fault of their own… they were luck or unlucky to be borne where they where just as we Americans were so lucky to be born here rather than in a thatch hut on the savanna in Africa.

    NoVa did not get to be the economic powerhouse it is by the dint of it's inhabitants – alone. Location had a lot to do with it.

    That's the basic philosophy behind Virginia's "level funding" of education – that it's not the fault of the child where he/she was born and each and every is entitled ethically and legally to an equal opportunity at life – and everyone else – no matter where they live – will give money to the state to make sure there is level funding.

    What better way for the kids who live in RoVa ..to be ABLE to seek better jobs in NoVa than a competitive education?

    NoVa is not "better" because it's people are "better" – at least no more or less than Roanoke, Charlottesville, Pound or Emporia.

  16. Gooze Views Avatar
    Gooze Views

    Groveton,
    I'm not sure I linked directly minorities and bad education. I may have done so regarding the study's national picture (which is quite obvious) but I don't think I did with Virginia. You may be reading things I didn't say.
    Both the coalfields and Southside have big problems. You are right abut jobs. One is linked to the boom-bust exploitative cycle and history of coal. In Southside, you have to deal with the exploitative nature of textile industries that moved South decades ago to take advantage of cheap, non union Southern labor and then skeedaddled overseas while lots of policy wonks (many in Fairfax) praised "globalization."
    Fact is, both places have big problems. And I really do know the difference. In 1962, my family moved from comfortable, cozy, well-paying Bethesda, Md. to central W.Va. with a lot of forlorn coal mines and glass plants. I remember handing out Sabin oral polio vaccines with my doctor Dad in a grade school gym with part of a wall missing and the snow was drifting in. Far cry from Bethesda (or Fairfax).
    PG

  17. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    re: " Fairfax County has what all successful places in the United States have – an economic base."

    agree.

    now did it come about because the people of NoVa are somehow "better" than their counterparts in RoVa .. or perhaps did it's location adjacent to the Nations Capital have a role?

  18. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    one of the perspectives that is gained from spending 30 days every year in the hinterlands of the US away from the urban areas is this:

    In community after community.. most of them looking a bit tattered and like they've seen better days – and the homes of the folks who live there – most all of them "downscale" even from most NoVa folks consider "modest"…

    over and over.. one ends up asking themselves – "where do these folks make a living?"

    followed almost immediately with: "well …what is it that is here … that would attract a company that might provide jobs?"

    Many of these places – don't have coal or timber or any natural resources – other than fields that can be planted in something.

    but "productivity" has taken 9 out of ever 10 farm jobs…as we know..

    and you'll look wide and far for someone who says "I have no choice but to commute 50 miles to work"

    or… "the congestion is so terrible, life is unbearable"

  19. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    This is one strange string of comments.

    Peter starts by stating that the major political Clan’s candidates are ignoring important issues upon which they should be taking positions, e.g. education.

    He is clearly right, and education is a prime example of an Agency responsibility that has been badly botched and will be very expensive to fix.

    Then there are comments by Larry, Groveton, and Peter – most of which one could agree with – although they are stated as arguments about the validity of other statements???

    There are many valid observations, which largely ignore the original observation and do not contradict what the others have said.

    Larry continues his portrayal of how 15 percent of the population lives.

    Both Larry and Groveton raise issues of spacial distribution without acknowledging that the root drivers of these realities have been explored at length in prior posts.

    And what about Janet Morgan who moved from rust belt Ohio to Glenfield, North Dakota and drives 300 miles a day to a job in Bismark? (14 Aug WaPo “Road to Recovery” of page A1)

    Groveton calls the comments “confused thinking,” how about that decision re ‘depopulation?’

    RH makes, perhaps the most important point he has ever posted:

    “The real issue is that Virginia is a low tax state.

    “The chickens are coming home to roost.

    “You get what you pay for.”

    And NO, JUST raising taxes will not solve everything. However, money has to come from somewhere to pay for past errors, to pay off past-due debts and to build a sustainable future.

    A viable future will not be cheap and the longer the no-more-taxers confuse the well intended, the longer it will be before a sustainable trajectory can be achieved – if it is still possible…

    Larry wins the prize with his citation of Professor Sugrue’s “The New American Dream: Renting”from the Wall St Journal. Sugrue has a very interesting perspective but he comes to the wrong conclusion. More on that in a later post.

    EMR

  20. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    re: the ever shrinking 15% are, in fact, a primary driver of the ever increasing growth challenges in our NURs…

    the wrong size home in the wrong location… is built for Joe from rural South Dakota who moved to NoVa to take that new job.

    no?

    and when Joe got there.. he found out that that high dollar job ..just would not buy.. even a low dollar home in Fairfax so what did Joe do?

    well. he drove south till he found "affordable" housing in the Fredericksburg, Area.

    only problem.. he and all those other Joes have completely maxed out I-95 and even Fairfax roads in their zeal to maximize that fancy NoVa salary.

    so.. you see.. in some respects.. it is, in fact, the depopulation of rural and small town America that is at the root of the settlement pattern conundrum…

    and yes.. the truth is that more and more folks who are mobile in their careers are seriously questioning the wisdom of owning a home verses written – per the WSJ article.

    eh?

    re: the "enlightened" NoVa and how they succeed in carefully building one of the most potent economic powerhouses in America….

    .. can be found in the fiction section "G" (for Groveton).

    the irony is.. NoVa is fat and sassy because Uncle Sam never met a tax increase he didn't like and as we all know – NoVa gets a commission on every buck.

    so when we talk about how "undeserving" RoVa is of Va tax distribution and how "deserving" NoVa is because they "earned" it… I do get a bit queasy…

  21. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "…did it come about because the people of NoVa are somehow "better" than their counterparts in RoVa "

    Maybe they are "better" because they can afford to be. Goodness costs money, whether it be social goodness, environmental goodness, or transportation goodness.

    I know I made a conscious decision to move to NOVA because I figured it would have a stable economy. AS it turned out, the rural stagnant economy I moved away from hasn't done so badly: partly a result of job mobility supported by the internet.

    I wonder what NOVA would look like if it were not being bled to death by ROVA.

    RH

  22. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "And what about Janet Morgan who moved from rust belt Ohio to Glenfield, North Dakota and drives 300 miles a day to a job in Bismark? "

    Yes, what about her?

    EMR has never explained what his ideas would cost or how they would be paid for. His idea to pay for education was to confiscate the profits of the entertainment and advertising industry: raising taxes to the extreme, in other words.

    RH

    RH

  23. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    And over on the "Woodstock Nation" post EMR pays for universal medical care and youth recreation and PT with profit and tax on recreational drugs.

    Great ideas actually.

    RLG

  24. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    re: " I wonder what NOVA would look like if it were not being bled to death by ROVA."

    Oh Contrare!

    NoVa is not being bled just because it's name is NoVa.

    It's being bled because it is fat and sassy economically.

    If NoVa was dirt poor like SW and SC Va then they would get money from the other counties in VA that are better off.

    This is not a unique Va concept – with regard to education.

    Virginia every industrialized country in the world and virtually every state in the union – have similar approaches to providing equivalent equal opportunity to kids for education.

    You don't get tagged to contribute more because of your name or location but because you are relatively more prosperous – and the amount does not depend at all as the the reasons why you might be prosperous – overt plan or locational happenstance.

    Groveton suggested "depopulation" … ie. move folks out of the areas that are and probably will continue to be economic basket cases.

    he did not suggest a specific policy but I pointed out that one way to accomplish this is to provide each kid with a competitive education – one that will be competitive in NoVa and and other areas that are economically vibrant.

    isn't that essentially, Va's policy by "bleeding" NoVa to use it to provide better quality education to the less prosperous areas of Va?

    and just a closing note –

    on the concept of "more places".

    If NoVa would benefit from a "more places" dynamic…

    does that mean that NoVa would be willing to pay for Economic Development efforts for other "places"?

    Finally – the basic concept of a more prosperous area funding some of the needs of less prosperous areas – if you think about this from an individual perspective – is really just the collectivization of the progressive income tax concept.

    Groveton makes two mistakes:

    1. – He assumes that NoVa is prosperous because it's people are better at becoming prosperous

    2. – that localities that are economically prosperous have no responsibility to share their prosperity with areas that are less prosperous for education and economic development.

  25. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    NoVA is being bled to death because we are damn fools too lazy or self-content to take care of our own interests.

    First, I do believe that we need to pay taxes to help (note the verb "help") low-income areas of Virginia, which also make a fair and reasonable effort to tax themselves to support their schools, operate good schools.

    But there is no reason for Fairfax County taxpayers to help fund schools in relatively wealthy areas of Virginia that also have lower costs of living. But we do it and are oblivious to being ripped off. There is also no reason for us to help even poor areas that don't make a fair effort to tax themselves to support their own schools.

    When the Warner-Chichester tax increases went to fund education in RoVA, a number of localities actually cut local funding for schools. So how important are their schools?

    Groveton – what county has the most poor children in Virginia?

    TMT

  26. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    RLG:

    If the persistent scoffers who plague this site would actually read what Risse writes instead of just inventing find straw men to make him sound silly – which makes the scoffers sound petty and foolish instead – they would understand the value of his work which many of us are already cashing in on.

  27. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Would you guys shut up. The longer the scoffers toss rocks the longer it will be until the importance and value of Dr. Risse’s work is understood.

    In the meantime we profit. Just let the scoffers rant.

  28. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    if you want to see comparative data – go here:

    http://www.apa.state.va.us/comparativereport.cfm

    and look at exhibit C6 which details how each county funds education.

  29. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "It's being bled because it is fat and sassy economically."

    True enough: if you want money then you have to go to where the money is.

    I don't have a problem with that. It is the bleeding to death part. Somewhere there must be a correct balance between taking enough out of NOVA to keep te rest of the state running, and investing enough in NOVA to keep the golden goosse alive and well.

    No one, outside of NOVA, is even considering that conversation as far as I can tell.

    When it gets to the point that our intersections are dangerous because the roadsides haven't been mowed, we are kidding ourselves about what saves money, and what is worth spending on.

    RH

  30. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Re, the new American dream: renting.

    It is the new American dream for landlords. They will continue to get all the breaks that we think homeowners should be denied.

    They can roll their investment into newer and larger ones, and they can deduct the interest on their loans.

    RH

  31. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "If NoVa would benefit from a "more places" dynamic…

    does that mean that NoVa would be willing to pay for Economic Development efforts for other "places"?"

    If NOVA would benefit, why wouldn't they?

    The question is whether there is a true NET benefit between those alleviating "excess growth" and those benefiting from needed new growth.

    If there is a true net benefit then the winners ought to be able to pay the losers and still come out ahead.

    Larry likes to pick half of an argument and find fault with that half: that way we can never progress.

    But in this case, if the developed areas need to shed growth to improve their quality of life, and the underdeveloped areas need more growth to improve theirs, then where are the losers?

    The suqirrels and bunny rabbits, maybe?

    RH

  32. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "If the persistent scoffers who plague this site would actually read what Risse writes instead of just inventing find straw men to make him sound silly –"

    EMR once suggested that we confiscate the profits of the entertainment and advertising industries to pay for schools.

    Where is the straw man in that?

    EMR makes himself sound silly, and that is why he has scoffers. Scoffers serve the purpose of acting as a filter to separate the good ideas from the bad.

    When EMR and his anonymous supporters stop insisting that they are always right and there is one answer for everything, then they might start getting some support from the scoffers.

    RH

  33. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "In the meantime we profit. Just let the scoffers rant."

    Is tht short term profits, or long term profits. Are you trying to profit by getting ahead of someone else, or by making everyone better off and keeping your fair share?

    RH

  34. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "that localities that are economically prosperous have no responsibility to share their prosperity with areas that are less prosperous for education and economic development."

    They only have that responsibility so long as the value of the total package continues to go up and as long as their prosperity continues to grow, albeit at a slower rate.

    Considering transportation, NOVA has been losing prosperity at a much faster rate than the rest of the state: to the point that they are now second worse in the nation. They have long since exceeded their responsibility for sharing in this department.

    RH

  35. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Larry:

    I just can't seem to get this through to you – every place that has a stable economic base has that base as a result of various historical "accidents". Frankly, I think George Washington's efforts to put DC where it is presently located show more local savvy than New York growing up next to a great harbor created (in my belief system at least) by God.

    There are precious few examples in America of a stable economic area being the result of studied human planning. Research Triangle Park, NC is one example. California's ferocious opposition to employer non-compete agreements is another. As you know, I think George Washington and Thomas Jefferson (among others) worked hard to get the new nation's capital on the VA – MD border. Both men knew that the capital of a country is often its economic center. It was a hotly contested decision and they got it done.

    Regardless – either we have a workable plan for creating jobs in rural / small town Virginia or we don't. If there is such a plan – I'd like to hear it. The closest thing to a plan for jobs I've heard was Terry McAuliffe saying that the GA is only in session 55 days a year and he'd spend all the other days of the year convincing companies to put jobs in Virginia. Not a lot of detail but at least he know it was important.

    If there is no plan to create jobs then we'll either get into worse and worse subsidization or we'll have to encourage people to move to the areas where there are jobs. EMR is probably right about getting the land use policies in order in the NUR so that more people can afford to live there.

    Larry's point about providing better education so that the kids can move to get good jobs has some serious challenges. First, the area without the jobs has to be subsidized while the kids are growing up. Why not move the parents and spend the money that would have been spent in subsidies on better education. The second (and bigger) problem is that there is only a limited link between the amount spent on education and the quality of the education. In my opinion, the biggest factor in the quality of education is the attitude and involvement of the parents. Declining jobs, hopes and future prospects generally hurt parental involvement.

    If de-population is the only way then the sooner the better.

    Is de-population a ridiculous idea? Not in some of America's small cities.

    http://www.shelterforce.org/article/657/small_is_beautiful_again/

  36. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    " Larry's point about providing better education so that the kids can move to get good jobs has some serious challenges. First, the area without the jobs has to be subsidized while the kids are growing up."

    well they don't subsidize those areas right now except through the SOQs which are state funding of minimal education staffing and programs.

    that's the same program that Groveton and others rail about "robbing NoVa to 'reward" RoVa"

    no?

    so Va is essentially doing what Groveton is advocating right now – they are, in effect, funding policies that will, over the longer term, educate the kids and then let them decide to leave to go find jobs where there are jobs – i.e. "depopulate" ….

    no?

    but then we have other folks in NoVa who adamantly are opposed to this kind of policy though they couch it in a different way and never really are explicit as to what money is being 'diverted" from NoVa and for what reason.

    In fact, some have claimed that the poorer parts of Va do not pay their fair share "local" share and are keeping their property taxes lower than they should because they're expecting NoVa-funded education assistance.

    so they want to change the composite funding formula..

    or they say they do…

    I've never actually heard any NoVa elected representative agree and push for reform…

    or have I missed it?

    does Chap Peterson support changes to the composite index?

  37. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Larry – you are correct. I support changes in the formula for calculating state aid to education. The formula is too geared to the value of real estate and not local income and costs for providing services.

    It's the dollars raised and not the value of the real estate that is important.

    Some poor areas of Virginia tax themselves; others don't. There should be a minimum level of local effort geared to the income in the area and the costs to operate a school system. Everything should be weighted. Lower costs can offset some, but not all, lower levels of income.

    Higher costs in NoVA should offset some of the higher levels of income.

    Transfer tax revenues to the truly lower income areas of Virginia, after accounting for their lower costs. But the folks in the middle should pay their own way.

    TMT

  38. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    LarryG –

    Apparently, Chap is not a decendant of Pocohontas and, therefore, not entitled to the relevent facts and figures despite being a sitting state senator. Here is an excerpt from one of hos latest blogs:

    "Thanks for the post. I actually requested the #'s (jurisdiction by jurisdiction) from Transportation earlier this year. Here are some samples: Fairfax puts $60M into the highway and maintenance fund each year based upon our sales tax receipts (gas is collected by the state and I can't seem to get these #'s broken down by jurisdiction). Contrast that with the $250K that Ffx gets back for "secondary roads" this year and you have one hell of a problem. Now, I'll be the first to acknowledge that state highways are the main beneficiaries and FFX has received our share of megaprojects (Mixing Bowl and WW Bridge), which absorb hundreds of millions. However, this does raise the Q of whether we should just retain these funds.".

    So, it's SOQs and funding for local roads where NoVA is getting screwed. $250,000 for secondary roads in a county that paid $60M.

    There is an economic base everywhere. In SW and SAouthside VA it's just not a big enough base to support all the people who live there. So, subsidies pour in from elsewhere in Virginia. The subsidies will only end when:

    1. A larger economic base is built, or…
    2. Enough people move to other places to make the existing economic base sufficient for those who remain

    “There are no easy answers' but there are simple answers. We must have the courage to do what we know is morally right.”

    LarryG – You know this problem is getting worse. No textile mills are opening. The coal is running out. $250,000 for secondary roads will quickly make the cash cow of NoVA untenable. People living around DC won't move to Lee County, VA when NoVA dies – they'll move to Maryland.

    LarryG – like Creigh Deeds, you have no plan. Youngstown has a plan. Needless to say, the plan was developed by the mayor (local government) and not the state legislature.

    LarryG – Here is an MIT report on forgotten cities. It's quite interesting. There are a number of cities in Virginia on the list (including your hometown). Maybe you could give us a local perspective on whether this plan for a cure would work in Fredricksburg.

  39. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Peter –

    I find your side comment on globalization interesting. Apparently, it was the policy wonks in Fairfax who pushed that agenda. I remember things a bit differently. I remember a presidential debate in 1992 where Ross Perot insisted that letting American jobs flee to other countries was a big problem. Al Gore was his opponent. Gore smugly presented Perot with a framed picture of Smoot and Hawley. Gore knew globalization was good for America. He knew that imposing restrictions would put us in a recession / depression.

    Another data point for you would be a popular author who writes books on American politics and policy. Here is a short excerpt:

    – Free trade is hollowing out U.S. industry, destroying the dollar, and plunging the country into permanent dependency and unpayable debt.

    – One of every six U.S. manufacturing jobs vanished under Bush.

    The author's name is Pat Buchanan and he lives in McLean, VA. The book is called Day of Reckoning.

  40. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Sorry, LarryG:

    Here is the link –

    http://www.youngstown2010.com/homepage_images/voices%20from%20forgotten%20cities.pdf

  41. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "EMR is probably right about getting the land use policies in order in the NUR so that more people can afford to live there."

    Yeah, well, last Saturday morning route 66 westbound looked like rush hour – 60 miles west of the city.

    How are the NUR's going to give people everything they want? Not only do they need to be able to afford to live there,they have to WANT to live there.

    RH

  42. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "It's the dollars raised and not the value of the real estate that is important."

    Bingo. The value of real esatate is a lousy way to raise money. Taxes are paid with income, not real estate, not capital.

    RH

  43. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "Property values in the most depopulated areas have often dropped so far that remaining owner-occupants are trapped."

    "Their most common recommendation is to stop spreading development investment evenly throughout a city, instead targeting a select group of neighborhoods. "

    Classic case in point: how do the winners pay off the losers such that everyone comes out ahead?

    Instead of spending money to revitalize neighborhoods that are lost, use the money to relocate owners who are otherwise trapped?

    Whether an area is growing or shrinking, why should the owners who held out the longest get penalized the most?

    RH

  44. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "- Free trade is hollowing out U.S. industry, destroying the dollar, and plunging the country into permanent dependency and unpayable debt.

    – One of every six U.S. manufacturing jobs vanished under Bush. "

    And yet the value of goods manufactured in the US increased.

    RH

  45. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    RH –

    Saturday morning? That wasn't a workday commute, right?

    I-66, 60 miles west of DC? They are doing a lot of construction out there, aren't they? I just made an I66 / I81 / I40 run to/from Knoxville last week. VDOT certainly seems to have plenty of money for road construction on the western parts of I-66 and all along I-81.

    As for getting people to want to move where the jobs are – I guess fewer subsidies. If, like in Europe, gasoline is $7.50 / gallon and rural areas cannot be developed in order to preserve "free space" then people will move. Do the winners make enough to pay the losers? Probably. Increasing the real estate taxes within the NUR to build affordable housing for those who have to move from the areas without economic potential might work. Get families established in places with lots of jobs. Get the kids in good schools.

    Maybe.

  46. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    First Item on the list of strengths of forgotten cities:

    Location and connectvity — proximity to larger cities and rural places.

    Transportation and rural amenities.

    Of course, those rural amenities cannot remain unless they are profitable.

    Or maybe utterly unprofitable, but then there won't be much amenity, either.

    RH

  47. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    re: " Fairfax puts $60M into the highway and maintenance fund each year based upon our sales tax receipts (gas is collected by the state and I can't seem to get these #'s broken down by jurisdiction). Contrast that with the $250K that Ffx gets back for "secondary roads" this year and you have one hell of a problem. "

    you're assuming that others get that money – right?

    I suspect you're wrong.

    VDOT keeps that money – across the board….

    I too would like to see a concise breakdown of gas taxes paid verses money back but keep in mind that much of that tax is dedicated to maintenance which is not cheap.

    Maintenance, if you believe VDOT consumes all of the gas tax.

  48. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    re: " LarryG – like Creigh Deeds, you have no plan."

    well you cannot have a plan until you get an accurate picture of the current situation – as a start.

    look here:

    http://www.doe.virginia.gov/VDOE/Finance/Budget/2008-2010CompositeIndex.pdf

    so the state DOES have a formula to determine a locality's ability to pay – for education.

    and my plan – is to do what we are doing right now but kick it up a notch.

    Offer kids in depressed areas – college scholarships if they graduate with a "B" or better average.

    Give them free Community College and then help them get the next 2 years at a 4 year institution or technical college.

    Here is what is not a plan:

    to rail against the more prosperous areas of Va – funding the SOQs for the poorer areas of Va.

    Should we have a proper accounting so that we don't have "slackers" ?

    Yes.

    but let's not confuse the basic policy intention with implementation.

    do we agree with the policy?

    I do.

    I think this is one of the areas that govt can make a difference.

    waste & abuse = yes.

    but the answer is not to kill programs with waste & abuse unless you are going to use some kind of a consistent philosophy that shuts down VDOT on the same basis of SOQ funding.

    The REAL question by the way with VDOT's use of the gas tax is what is their OVERHEAD rate?

    how many VDOT employees are there in Fairfax County that are being paid for from the gas tax?

    I bet if you checked – you'd be shocked.

  49. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Your state government at work – VA HOT lanes project postponed.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/17/AR2009081702157.html

    I'd give Kaine credit if he said, "this was a bad idea after all". Instead, he basically says, "I just can't get it done".

    Sen. Deeds, Mr. McDonnell – any thoughts here?

  50. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    re: " "It's the dollars raised and not the value of the real estate that is important."

    check this:

    http://www.doe.virginia.gov/VDOE/Finance/Budget/2008-2010CompositeIndex.pdf

    and this:

    http://www.apa.state.va.us/comparativereport.cfm

    and report back the counties that are "slackers".

    I'm not convinced there is a problem – but here's the data so have at it… and come back with some examples that back up your assertion.

  51. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    http://www.youngstown2010.com/homepage

    file not found: ERROR 404

  52. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    re: "free trade" and globalization and Virginia jobs

    …………….

    Deeds & McDonnell – and the Pentagon and the military industrial complex.

    Does a T.C. Williams graduate "deserve" a job writing user manuals for UAVs any more or any less than a Pound High School graduate?

    let's break this down a little further.

    Let's say that there are two classes of UAVs – military versions and civilian versions.

    civilian versions you say?

    yup.. just as many other military technologies – we are going to see an explosion of civilian and non-military UAVs

    the question is – who will get the jobs designing and building them?

    what kind of an education does one need to be able to compete for an entry-level job in a company that builds these critters?

    It's questions like the above that our would-be leaders in Va need to address in my mind.

    Right now – I do not think either one of them is capable of this level of vision….

    McDonnell's big deal is what?

    putting GPS bracelets on sex offenders?

    WTF?

    you think this guy has the right stuff to run Va – Groveton?

    or are you picking the less of two evils ?

    fess up – this guy is not the sharpest knife in the drawer now is he?

  53. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    re: "forgotten cities"

    got the link to work finally..

    the report lists Fredericksburg, VA as a "forgotten city".

    the fact that Fredericksburg is essentially a bedroom community with NoVa commuters … undermines the report.

    besides, the report is about revitalizing cities – not the abandonment of rural Va and the movement of kids from those areas to the areas of Va with jobs.

    I still classify jobs in two ways :

    jobs that satisfy the needs of the local community – many if not most of them – service jobs.

    then we have jobs that exist because a product is made that is sold to others who do not live in that community.

    these would be your factory jobs – that in years past were the sole economic backbone of places without a diversified economic base.

    It's not just Va. It's all over the U.S. – community after community that lost it's sole manufacturing plant and now are on the settlement pattern version of life-support.

    What they have reverted to is local jobs.

    Someone cuts hair and with that money they pay for a furnace repair who then pay his rent to the guy who pays a gardener.

    If anyone is this group wants a pair of socks – they "export" their money to that lady in Thailand who is running the machine that makes socks – rather than the folks who used to work at that plant in their own town.

    so no longer do any of these communities have jobs in excess of what local needs are.

    In other words, they do not have "net" jobs.

    Now.. another interesting thing is that these communities at one time might well have met the criteria for a balanced community… that EMR talks about…

    but after they lost their primary employer – they are no longer "balanced".

    You can find a TON of "affordable"… vacant housing in these places.. dirt cheap housing compared to the least costly housing in NoVa.

    so.. what I get out of this is when EMR sez " There must be Balance of J / H / S / R / A at the Community scale", he's often advocating more of the stuff that comes AFTER the J so that together they come into "balance".

    But what happens when the "J" part gets cut in half or 3/4?

    then you have a significant unbalance – the opposite of the balance problem in places like NoVa.

  54. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    re: How the SOQ local share are calculated:

    "The Composite Index of Local Ability-to-Pay

    Is used to measure each local government’s ability to generate revenue, as a measure of local ability to fund public education.

    It is calculated using three measures of the local tax base:

    true real estate values (50% of measure);

    adjusted gross income (40% of measure); and

    local taxable retail sales (10% of measure)."

    this is from:

    http://www.doe.virginia.gov/VDOE/Finance/Budget/soqfund.ppt

    what I'm trying to understand here – is – is there an actual disparity in the way the SOQ local share is calculated –

    yes or no – and if so.. can you show it?

    2. – has any elected official in NoVa… from the BOS on up to the GA Delegates and Senators sought changes in the way the Composite Index is computed – and if so – what changes were sought?

  55. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    1)How many people in F'burg are driving or commuting all the way to DC or Arlington to do a job that could just as well be done in F'burg?

    2)How much could we (collectively, as a region) save if we could move those jobs closer to where those people live?

    3)Who would be the losers in such a move?

    4) How much can we (collectively the winnners) afford to pay the losers in this move and still come out ahead?

    RH

  56. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    LarryG –

    Good points.

    You wrote, "true real estate values (50% of measure);

    adjusted gross income (40% of measure); and

    local taxable retail sales (10% of measure)."

    True real estate value is an interesting thought. I don't know what my house is worth right now. In fact, I have no Earthly idea. The GA doesn't know what my house is worth either. Nobody knows. So, 50% of the formula is based on what is obviously a crock.

  57. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    re: " 2)How much could we (collectively, as a region) save if we could move those jobs closer to where those people live?

    3)Who would be the losers in such a move?"

    talk to DOD. DOD tried to move one of their commands to A.P. Hill just south of Fredericksubrg and they took a poll of the employees and found out that 60%+ would leave and find work elsewhere in the NoVa region.

    so that was the end of that move.

    Fredericksburg would need their own version of Sen. Byrd… to kick some jobs loose…

  58. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    re: " 50% of the formula is based on what is obviously a crock."

    I think it made sense for all those years before the meltdown.

    but I hope you noticed that it's not property values alone that go into the formula.

    more info:

    http://jlarc.virginia.gov/meetings/December08/soq08brf.pdf

    every year JLARC has to report on the SOQ funding.

    I think it has got a pretty good scrubbing… but that's also why I asked if any elected leaders in NoVa have advocated a different formula…

  59. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Some time ago Grovetons said in part:

    "Larry's point about providing better education so that the kids can move to get good jobs has some serious challenges.

    "First, the area without the jobs has to be subsidized while the kids are growing up.

    "Why not move the parents and spend the money that would have been spent in subsidies on better education.

    "The second (and bigger) problem is that there is only a limited link between the amount spent on education and the quality of the education.

    "In my opinion, the biggest factor in the quality of education is the attitude and involvement of the parents.

    "Declining jobs, hopes and future prospects generally hurt parental involvement."

    While a lot of this is correct, it cannot be generalized and you can evolve far more Balance in places that do not rank well statistically. It is also a matter of scale.

    In the Northern Rocky Mountain Urban Support Region where I grew up:

    There were few jobs and low wages but my father loved living there — hunting and fishing. He taught himself two trades and had a small contracting business.

    My mother learned to put together healthful meals from game, fish and mushrooms, berries etc. we gathered. She was the branch librarian and reading mentor, ran the polling place, was president of the volinteer social welfare agency and ….

    I had a great childhood.

    Half of the 43 who graduated from high schol with me went to college, most of us within the USR — at least undergrad.

    The majority of those who went to college had carriers outside the Northern Rocky USR and most still live outside the USR.

    It is a matter of scale and a matter of taking the initiative to do the best you can with what you have.

    EMR

  60. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    EMR – I agree with you. Anybody should be able to live anywhere they want in the United States. They just shouldn't be able to live somewhere that depends on constant wealth transfers. And, in my opinion, the declining economic prospects in rural and small town Virginia have created a situation where too many people live in areas with too few jobs. This creates an economic imbalance that can be corrected in several ways:

    1. Some / many (but not all) of the people can move to locales where there is economic potential.

    2. The area can attract new jobs to replace those that have been lost.

    3. The residents can learn to be more self-sufficient and live with less. Your youthful example of eatring the game that you hunted is a good example.

    4. The area can continue to receive wealth re-distributions from places which still have jobs.

    Which avenue are we pursuing with the long term ecomonically disadvantaged areas of Virginia?

  61. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    My point was that we make the ASSUMPTION that value of proerty is associated with ability to pay, and it isn't. For one thing, the more valuable the property the more maintenance it needs, which reduces cash flow available for other purposes.

    And yet, 50% of the formula is based on value of property. If you want to find the ability to pay you should divde the income by the value of the property, and that would give you an index of what is left to spend on other things (advancement as opposed to maintenance).

    RH

  62. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "…and rural areas cannot be developed in order to preserve "free space" then people will move."

    And you don;t see that THAT is a subsidy?

    RH

  63. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I read through that Youngstown2010 report referenced above…one quote stood out in particular (especially as a resident of Southside):

    "Just beyond the factory and mill ran the river that long ago had powered them, and Miles often wondered if these old buildings were razed, would the town that had grown up around them be forced to imagine a future? Perhaps not. Nothing but a chain-link fence had gone up in place of the Rexall, which meant, Miles supposed, that diverting one’s attention from the past was not the same as envisioning and embarking upon a future."
    —Richard Russo, Empire Falls

  64. Jordan Hixon Avatar
    Jordan Hixon

    I find it amazing that anyone could not do well in high school these days. The SOL's are completely dumbed down these days and most regular level classes barely give you a challenge. I think it is more of a work ethic and upbringing problem rather than a school system problem

  65. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Jordan:

    Kind of the school version of the problem you described above, about the American Dream, no?

    How is your satisfaction from exceeding the standards diminished by the fact of having some minimum standard?

    RH

  66. Larry G Avatar
    Larry G

    not sure that dumbed down education standards are spot on the idea of more prosperous localities footing the education bill for less prosperous ones.

    I'm not sure I've ever got an answer from Groveton and others as to whether or not they support the CONCEPT of the more prosperous localities helping to pay from the education costs of less prosperous localities.

    It would not do a kid living in a poor location that could not afford to provide him with a competitive education to leave and seek a job in a more prosperous place if the education he received was substandard and would not afford him any better standard of living in an urbanized area than if he chose to remain where he grew up.

    And this is where the concept of land ownership plays into this in a big way.

    If you grew up like EMR did and you inherit land – like many do, you also have a choice as to whether or not stay on that land your entire life and try to make it productive enough to support you and your family or.. to leave it and go elsewhere on the hopes that you'll do better.

    EMR keeps talking about "open space" and "conservation easements".

    I would say that most rural places outside of the urban areas and the exurbs around them… do not need to be "protected" …

    they will never be developed and paved over because they are too far away to be a place that someone with a job in the city would commute to.

    Take a place like Waterloo, Iowa.

    There are millions of acres of open space land that surround that town and that land will never have to be worried about being paved over…

    it will be there forever and it will be owned by someone … forever….

    and the folks that own it will have some choices about how to use it – and they will be taxed and they will have to figure out how they will get the money to pay the taxes.

    If you cannot farm it and you have no source of income.. what do you do?

    At some point.. the county can take the land for taxes and resell it but who would want it if they could not use that land to produce at least enough to pay taxes and to pay for those that would produce enough to pay the taxes.

    long story short – the taxes on land and the value of the land is what keeps people on that land … and finding a spouse and having kids that grow up on that land.

    EMR specifically exempts land like this from his "balance" paradigms…

    He's got these two convenient categories of "vacant" and "USR" for them where some of that land should be fallow and other land like it should be productive to be a supplier of stuff (USRs) to NURs.

    seems like you'd need a "balance" for that relationship either.

    so back to the education issue.

    If a child grows up in a USR and receives a substandard education – his chances of leaving that land and getting a job in the NUR is not so hot.

    so we came up with this concept of public education – and then later – "equal opportunity" public education where all kids no matter where they live and no matter what the economic circumstances are of their parents are to have (in theory) access to an equivalent education …

    …. regardless of location….

    so.. if Mom & Dad and the county they live in cannot afford to do this – we get the money from the moms&dads and counties that can afford it.

    good old fashioned confiscation of property … for the greater good….

    oops.. isn't that what EMR is advocating also?

    wait… are the folks who advocate government confiscation to create "more places" also doing the same?

    holy moly!

  67. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The SOL's are not supposed to measure the students success.

    They are designed as minimum standards to guarantee the teachers and schools don't utterly fail.

    Let's remember Why they were developed.

    RH

  68. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "and others as to whether or not they support the CONCEPT of the more prosperous localities helping to pay from the education costs of less prosperous localities.
    "

    As long as you can show that it provides a net public benefit.

    I the prosprerous localities are providing $100 million in taxes to educate those in non-prosperous communities, and those students wind up paying $50 million more in taxes than they might have otherwise, then it is a bad investment.

    Provided that the $100 million might have been spent on something else that returned more.

    RH

  69. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "I would say that most rural places outside of the urban areas and the exurbs around them… do not need to be "protected" …"

    Larry has discovered a truth. Land will be used for whatever provides the owners the most gain. When the highest gain comes from conservation, then we will be willing to pay a fair price for it (the land AND the conservation).

    RH

  70. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "if the education he received was substandard and would not afford him any better standard of living in an urbanized area than if he chose to remain where he grew up.

    And this is where the concept of land ownership plays into this in a big way."

    I fail to frasp the logical leap here.

    RH

  71. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "you also have a choice as to whether or not stay on that land your entire life and try to make it productive enough to support you and your family or.. to leave it and go elsewhere on the hopes that you'll do better."

    Nice try.

    You have no such choice.

    The use of your land is determined by someone else, as you discovered when your additional builing lot disappeared. The productivity is determined by its use.

    My land will never produce enough to support my wife and I, let alone a family. I'm lucky if it produces enough to cover the taxes on it.

    Supposing I choose to leave it and go someplace else, I would have to rely on the "bigger sucker" theory in order to sell it.

    Unless there is SOME kind of opportunity that the usage will change.

    Every day I occupy an office that comprises 144 square feet. Because of the use allowed that office, building and land, it earns 30 or 40 times as much as my entire farm, but the taxes are not 30 or 40 times as much.

    I harvest hay on a neighboring farm and I pay the owner the eqivalent of $1500 for the privilege. His farm is assessed at over $10 million. You do the math.

    His farm is supported by an office similar to mine (maybe larger and more plushly appointed).

    There is no such choice as making THIS land productive enough to supoort itself, let alone anyone living on it. Not at today;s food and fiber prices.

    And the reason is that there are places like Waterloo with millons of acres around them.

    ————————–

    If you cannot farm it (profitably) and you have no source of income .. what do you do?

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    "At some point.. the county can take the land for taxes and resell it but who would want it if they could not use that land to produce at least enough to pay taxes and to pay for those that would produce enough to pay the taxes."

    Bingo.

    The guy I rent land from spends an enormous amount for his property, and he is here on occasional weekends. How long can that last? Even rich people get fed up eventually, and the county will ahve to allow some other use. Like Sheila Johnson said, "You spend $9.5 million for a proeperty, you expect to be able to use it for something."

    "the county can take the land for taxes and resell it but who would want it "

    Well obvously,the county would be better off if it "arranged things" so that someone would want it.

    "Ever notice how developers snap up the land when a new road or sewer is built" – Lary Gross.

    ————————–

    "EMR specifically exempts land like this from his "balance" paradigms.."

    Which is a major fault. EMR can exempt such land form his theories, but the economy will not.
    Balance HAS to include the entires system.

    ————————

    "good old fashioned confiscation of property … for the greater good…."

    Another major flaw.

    You can NEVER, EVER, NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, simply confiscate someone else's propperty for the greater good.

    It is mathematically impossible.

    You MUST provide some serious value added in the confiscation, or the prupose therefore. And in that case,you can afford to compensate the property owner, and still have a "greater good"

    Emotionally, there is slim difference beteen having your prorperty confiscated, and having it forcibly purchased.

    But for the property owner there is a huge difference financially, and for the community there is a huge difference ethically.

    It is the difference of stealing, or not.

    RH

  72. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "wait… are the folks who advocate government confiscation to create "more places" also doing the same?"

    No.

    My argument is prefaced on YOUR argument that excess (or too speedy) local development is costing you more than you benefit.

    Therefore, if you spend some money to have that development someplace else, then you save more than you lose and no confiscation occured.

    Nice try, though.

    You can always give up on the argument that development costs you more than you get back, and we will go around again.

    RH

  73. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Chevron has set up a YouTube channel called Over1000JobsLost. That’s a reference to the number of construction workers who lost their jobs when a state judge last month halted work on the 243,000-barrel-a-day Richmond refinery in the East Bay near Berkeley, Calif.

    A group of local environmental and community special interest groups brought a lawsuit against Chevron pointing out that the upgraded refinery would take in heavier – and dirtier – types of crude oil. Among other points, they claimed this wasn’t properly assessed in the environmental statement.

    Says Roger Kim, executive director of the Asian Pacific Environmental Network, one of the groups behind the suit: “We need to protect the community’s health from Chevron’s project and our community needs jobs, particularly in this economic climate. I think Chevron is trying to drive a wedge in our community and force us to choose between health and jobs. Our community must have both.”

    ————————–

    Well fine, but where is Roger Kims buisiness that will provide both. What is his alternative proposal, other than obstructively stopping someone else's plan?

    How is someone who owns the land supposed to provide a living for his family (and other peoples family) if there is no use allowed for the land?

    Obviously, no one is going to farm land that is designated for a refinery.

    RH

  74. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "The fight over energy and the environment can easily become a fight about jobs. With the national unemployment rate at 9.4% and California at 11.9%, jobs matter – maybe more than environmental concerns."

    Environmental Capital.

    ———————————-

    What is the value of a pristine envirlnemnt when you are starving and being foreclosed on?

    RH

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