If This Doesn’t Get You Admitted to UVa, What Will?

https://www.tiktok.com/@schooloflimmy/video/7178932905891089707

The producer of The School of Limmy, a Korean-American neuroscience major at Duke University, posts short videos about college admissions on TikTok, YouTube, and Instagram. One of his schticks is reading the qualifications of student applicants and listing the colleges that accepted and rejected them.

The applicant described in the video above was valedictorian of his class, scored perfectly on the ACT exams and 1550 on the SAT, took several AP and Honors courses, had a 4.7755 grade point average, was captain of the lacrosse team, wrestled, ran cross country, was a Boy Scout troop leader, was a youth council leader, served on student council, and belonged to a math club… which he founded.

The applicant was accepted to eight universities, including Princeton and Washington & Lee University (which he ended up attending), but was rejected from several others… including the University of Virginia.

This makes you wonder what UVa is looking for in a student applicant. Obviously, it’s more than SAT scores, the submission of which is now voluntary, and good grades.

Clues in the TikTok video reveal that the student attended “GWHS,” George Washington High School, in Charleston, W.Va. GWHS is rated the No. 1 public high school in West Virginia, and No. 550 nationally. So, being class valedictorian is not a shabby recognition.

The out-of-state acceptance rate for UVa is 24% for out-of-state students (2021-22 academic year). It’s tough getting into UVa, but it’s not Harvard (3% acceptance rate). It seems remarkable that a student with such sterling credentials — even an out-of-state student — didn’t make the cut. After all, the GWHS student scored 1550 in his SAT. The median SAT score for entering 1st years at UVa this year is 1470.

Where did he fall short?

UVa gets more than 30,000 applicants a year, which means it has broad latitude to pick and choose. The university’s admissions criteria are a mystery, however.

Here’s the vague language the university tells prospective students: ” Your academic performance in high school provides helpful information, but we do not make admission decisions based on grades and numbers alone. We strive to build a varied, dynamic class of students who will thrive at UVA, strengthen our community, and change the world for the better.” (Note the words “strengthen our community” and “change the world for the better.”)

By a “varied” class, the university is referring to both geographic and demographic diversity. As a public university supported by Virginia taxpayers, UVa tries to accept students from every city and county across the state. As an institution committed to “equity,” UVa seeks to increase the percentage of non-traditional students, meaning Blacks and Hispanics, who are under-represented compared to the state’s population, as opposed to Asians, who are over-represented. UVa admissions also factors in legacy status, giving preference to children of alumni, which favors Whites, given the reality that until recent years graduates were mainly White. But out-of-state, non-legacy Whites are accepted at the lowest rate of any racial/ethnic group.

Other factors that UVa might consider are student leadership, involvement in non-academic activities, and “grit,” or a demonstrated ability to overcome adversity. UVa applicants also must fill out the “common” application form, which this year required a “diversity” essay, thus creating the possibility that students might be judged based on their worldviews.

UVa does not explicitly list the criteria, much less make public the weights it gives to each. One is left to speculate, based on statistical profiles of the entering class and the rhetoric of the administration — students should “strengthen our community” and “change the world for the better” — what those criteria might be.

In the case of the GWHS student, one might infer based on the social-justice lens that permeates the rhetoric of the UVa administration that his application was deemed deficient for reasons of race, socioeconomic status, gender, religion sexual orientation, or failure to check off some other social-justice preference. In other words, too Asian (or too White), too male, too Christian, not sufficiently committed to wokeness. Although we know nothing about his parents, one is tempted to add: parents are not alumni or rich enough to cultivate as potential donors.

Perhaps those inferences are unfair. If so, the UVa admissions office could set the record straight by being fully transparent about its admissions criteria. Until it does so, one should feel free to make another set of inferences. The admissions office isn’t transparent because it doesn’t want to be, and it doesn’t want to be because it knows that transparency would make people unhappy.


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98 responses to “If This Doesn’t Get You Admitted to UVa, What Will?”

  1. James Kiser Avatar
    James Kiser

    the right color and political groups?

  2. William O'Keefe Avatar
    William O’Keefe

    To quote Ron White, “you can’t fix stupid.” If someone at UVA doesn’t get fired for this decision, the cancer of stupidity will just get worse.

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      There’s a maximum number of out-of-staters Va State schools can accept.

      Then again, maybe he failed his psych-eval by the TAT and showed a tendency to shoot people or beat coeds with hockey sticks.

      1. We’ve been over this. At UVA they us lacrosse sticks…

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Dammit! I’m old! All sticks, even those in climatology, are hockey sticks!

  3. James McCarthy Avatar
    James McCarthy

    Now, BR validates TikTok reports on issues. What were the “several others” that rejected this reportedly outstanding applicant? What does TikTok say about BR?

  4. LarrytheG Avatar

    When we say meritocracy, do we mean (in a REAL meritocracy), rank the applicants by SAT score and just selected down to some number of available slots and that’s it? Or perhaps some aggregation of SAT, ACT, and GPA?

    We don’t , and we probably never did, probably not a single school does that, right?

    And we KNOW they don’t do that with athletic applicants!

    And why would any higher ed really want to reveal how they do that in the current SCOTUS, political, culture war environment and get themselves in that
    “meritocracy” briar patch?

    1. Not Today Avatar

      Of course not. Simpletons like to reduce merit to a test score (which can be faked and gamed) and a highly variable GPA which is meaningless comparing across states and districts. What they fear most is evaluations that consider the whole child, their circumstances, advantages/disadvantages, grit and IMPACT.

    2. Not Today Avatar

      Of course not. Simpletons like to reduce merit to a test score (which can be faked and gamed) and a highly variable GPA which is meaningless comparing across states and districts. What they fear most is evaluations that consider the whole child, their circumstances, advantages/disadvantages, grit and IMPACT.

      1. killerhertz Avatar
        killerhertz

        As if circumstances, grit, and impact can’t be faked. Short of in person interviewing every applicant, standardized tests, which are a substitute for IQ in many cases, and a CV are really the only objective criteria.

        1. Not Today Avatar

          Standardized tests are not and have not been a valid substitute for IQ tests for the last 30+ years. The test companies themselves don’t even make those outlandish claims because they’re unsupportable.

          1. killerhertz Avatar
            killerhertz

            Incorrect. People have studied this for decades. The standardized tests are highly correlated with aptitude. Maybe learn some real world skills outside of the clown show that is college admissions.

            https://randomcriticalanalysis.com/2015/06/18/on-sat-act-iq-and-other-psychometric-test-correlations/

          2. Not Today Avatar

            Sir, are you unaware that the major companies, College Board and ACT, stopped making these claims eons ago? Two words…product liability. Correlation is not causation. Household income is as much if not a more reliable predictor of today’s test scores than IQ. Read more academic journals. Blogs are supplementary.

          3. Not Today Avatar

            Sir, are you unaware that the major companies, College Board and ACT, stopped making these claims eons ago? Two words…product liability. Correlation is not causation. Household income is as much if not a more reliable predictor of today’s test scores than IQ. Read more academic journals. Blogs are supplementary.

          4. killerhertz Avatar
            killerhertz

            They stopped making these claims in the name of marxist woke idealogy. After all, these institutions are populated with the products of the woke university system. The conservatives on here are too dumb to realize that their revered institutions are responsible for their cultural downfall. Ultimately we should all be happy that capable alphas are not accepted to these broke institutions.

            Also, a few SAT prep books can be purchased for under a hundred bucks. That’s all you need to offset the bulk of the disadvantage for standardized testing.

          5. Not Today Avatar

            Woke ideology doesn’t keep the lights on for colleges (which are a business). Income does. Losing income to lawsuits based on valid consumer protection claims isn’t good business for test companies. Losing profitable students (think long term income/donations) doesn’t make sense for colleges. Who donates at higher rates? Do you know? I do. It’s not white men. Who contributes to community causes with their time/labor? Do you know? I do. It’s not white men.

          6. killerhertz Avatar
            killerhertz

            Don’t let your bias against white men show or anything.

            Colleges aren’t real businesses. They’re subsidized by the federal government and fiat. Move along.

          7. Not Today Avatar

            I don’t have a bias accept toward truth and against falsehood. My biases, such as they are, can be overcome by factual info. Do you have any?

          8. LarrytheG Avatar

            demanding facts is setting a high bar here in BR…

          9. Not Today Avatar

            🤣

          10. Not Today Avatar

            LOL. My bias is toward the truth, sir, for better or worse. But if you have evidence that I’ve misrepresented the state of play, do share.

        2. Not Today Avatar

          ‘Circumstances’ are often included in counselor and community recommendations. Also…DUH. Because they carry weight. Those who fake them can and have had their admissions revoked. Google that too.

  5. killerhertz Avatar
    killerhertz

    Not a very smart individual. Admissions is a game. These days college is merely a credentialist gateway to a career (or a debt anchor, depending on your major).

    The applicant should have put their pronouns on their application, talked about their gender queer identity, and claimed to be a disabled athlete.

    1. Not Today Avatar

      Clearly you’ve neither applied nor worked with a college applicant in the last 10 years. Pronouns aren’t part of the process just a pathetic right wing talking point. Achievements that stand out are. Nothing about lacrosse or Boy Scouts is even remotely interesting. At the most selective institutions, UVA is one, they’re a dime a dozen. What have you done for someone OTHER than yourself? What have you done to change your community/world for the better? What have you done to LEAD?! What have you done to distinguish yourself from every other similarly situated student?! Those are the questions being asked.

    2. Not Today Avatar

      Clearly you’ve neither applied nor worked with a college applicant in the last 10 years. Pronouns aren’t part of the process just a pathetic right wing talking point. Achievements that stand out are. Nothing about lacrosse or Boy Scouts is even remotely interesting. At the most selective institutions, UVA is one, they’re a dime a dozen. Boy Scouts is primarily about SELF. Lacrosse doesn’t generate revenue or views/clicks. What have you done for someone OTHER than yourself? What have you done to change your community/world for the better? What have you done to LEAD?! What have you done to distinguish yourself from every other similarly situated student?! Those are the questions being asked. Also, the common app doesn’t “require” a “diversity” essay. As someone shepherding a student through the process this is a total lie. Students have the OPTION of speaking about their hardships/challenges but they are not required to.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Stick around guy/gal. We need your perspective here! Some need it much more than others!

        😉

        1. killerhertz Avatar
          killerhertz

          This is most certainly a woman.

          1. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            A military wife.

        2. Not Today Avatar

          The whole essay is ironic given that Bacon’s minions would be LIVID if test scores and GPA alone determined merit. The primary beneficiaries would be Asian and Latin/Hispanic/African immigrants whose work ethic and personal stories would shame us all. In an increasingly diversifying nation/world, they’d lose…hugely. People who consistently disparage higher education aren’t sending their kids to college, they’re dooming them to servitude. That’s their choice, of course. All I can do is shake my head.

        3. Not Today Avatar

          The whole essay is ironic given that Bacon’s minions would be LIVID if test scores and GPA alone determined merit. The primary beneficiaries would be Asian and Latin/Hispanic/African immigrants whose work ethic and personal stories would shame us all. In an increasingly diversifying nation/world, they’d lose…hugely. People who consistently disparage higher education aren’t sending their kids to college, they’re dooming them to servitude. That’s their choice, of course. All I can do is shake my head.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            Oh and now we got the ones who won’t get childhood vaccinations for their kids either.

  6. The applicant is overqualified for UVa and unlikely to attend, hence the rejection. Maybe if they had been identified as a Jefferson scholar, it would have been different. Yield is an important criteria, and schools routinely reject people who are unlikely to attend.

    1. Not Today Avatar

      The applicant isn’t ‘overqualified’ just qualified, and didn’t merit the slot when compared to other qualified applicants.

      1. Yes, you’re correct. What I mean is that the applicant is likely to get into better schools, of which there aren’t many in the US. If the student isn’t incentivized to go to UVa with a full ride or other special status, it’s unlikely the student attends. I am told that schools often reject those applicants to keep their yield numbers high. Now, I personally love UVa, and would encourage anyone to attend regardless of the competition. But I’m biased. Objectively, if the kid gets into Harvard, he should go to Harvard, barring some sort of full ride at UVa.

    2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead
      1. Not Today Avatar

        Truth, especially for out of state applicants with no ‘hook’. Managing expectations is half the battle. No one likes to hear that they aren’t what the school is looking for this year but that’s part of life. You either have ‘it’ or you don’t. Toughen your kids up and send them out to fight another day. Stop whining.

        1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead

          No whining here! Not a chance I would send my daughter into the crossfire of UVA’s culture wars. Rejection letters are useful. I saved all of mine from when I was applying to school or a job. It makes me thankful for what I have, and the way things have turned out. Far better than I hoped or dreamed of.

          1. Not Today Avatar

            DH and I feel the same way. I won the lottery at my alma and can guide our kids better. Rejection is a learning opportunity/fuel not a grievance-fest. If you want something more, do better and be UNDENIABLE.

          2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            What is your take on Victor Davis Hanson’s column that asserts universities are doomed? He claims the current trajectories of schools like UVA will go bankrupt gradually and then suddenly.
            https://www.daily-journal.com/opinion/hanson-are-universities-doomed/article_d19acad8-820b-11ed-b905-234ab2fb3561.html

          3. Not Today Avatar

            The demographic cliff on the horizon is real. I think there are not enough future collegians/high school graduates to sustain the colleges we have. There will be many casualties. Thanks to Trump/#MeToo, interest in women’s colleges, HBCUs and primarily Hispanic-serving institutions is WAY up. There’s a renaissance happening there. The most at-risk institutions are those without a name or a niche, whether that’s a stellar reputation like UVa or Yale, religious conservatism, arts or social liberalism, what have you. Schools are going to need an edge too. Mid-tier schools are already fighting for students.

          4. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            Makes sense. Will institutions be nimble enough to weather the future? You should stick your name next to your words. Your comments added a great deal to my understanding of the topic.

          5. Not Today Avatar

            There’s a lot in there that I don’t agree with but some that I do. I don’t agree that universities are doomed but I do think only the haves (reputation, money, niche) will remain. There aren’t enough prospective students.

            The late 90s recession plus the rise of student loan limits and the simultaneous removal of bankruptcy as a way to discharge student loan debt led people who went to college in the 90s and early 2000s to have fewer kids AND prioritize debt-free higher education options. It also priced those who didn’t go to school out of the market (there’s a bit of sour grapes in the backlash toward higher education IMO).

            A lot of ppl. don’t know that Boomers defunded public higher ed institutions in the 80s, allowed Reagan to shift the burden of educating the citizenry to individuals/families through non-dischargeable loans, and then universities went on a spending spree building tricked out stadiums, dorms, and gyms and hired tons of administrators to oversee it all. I couldn’t afford TP as a student but, by golly, my meal card gave me access to wood-fired Wolfgang Puck pizzas with a fresh chiffonade of basil every day! Not kidding.

            None of that has anything to do with ‘wokeness’. They’re not related. Wokeness is blinding folks with smoke and mirrors while demonizing education is picking their pockets. There are lots of big, structural problems with higher education. ‘Wokeness’ isn’t one of them. Educated people aren’t going to stop sending their kids to college and valuing education. Tom Cotton didn’t let ‘wokeness’ stop him from moving his kids to NoVa schools. They’re fundamentally better than anything Arkansas has to offer. Plebes might try to knock the shine off these elite schools as they become more brown and female but that’ll be the envy talking.

            Watch what these wokeness shriekers do with their own kids, not what they say.

          6. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            Good stuff Mr. Not Today. Appreciate your insights.

  7. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
    f/k/a_tmtfairfax

    The higher education admission process should first drop legacy admissions. Getting in because Mom or Dad did has as much relevance as holding descendants responsible for what ancestors did.

    In the case where there are more applicants than places, effort should be made to make the admission decisions as objective as possible. This does not mean that no factor beyond test scores and grades. But it does mean that there should be some parameters around what factors are being considered and then how. This should not be hidden from the public nor left to the unfettered discretion of college employees.

    A public school or a private one receiving federal funding should not be permitted to make decisions based on suspect classifications, e.g., citizen’s race, skin color, ethnicity, religion, or national origin, or a semi-suspect one – sex.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      TMT – you’d do laws to require what you are saying?

      1. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
        f/k/a_tmtfairfax

        Shouldn’t an admissions process for limited positions be as objective as possible? Or should admissions staff have the discretion to make decisions based on their personal views?

        If, for example, a public college wants a level of outstate or foreign students, shouldn’t that information be made public along with some level of specificity as to how many or what percentage?

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          If you have more qualified applicants than slots, what criteria would you want used?

          Do you want the process made public so you can then criticize it and advocate for a different process?

          1. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
            f/k/a_tmtfairfax

            Academics, including standardized test scores and grades, both a GPA and individual grades should be the top criteria. There may be a need for a school to explain its grading system. Other factors, life experiences (broadly defined), residence (instate, outstate or foreign) and recommendations come to mind.

            If everyone whose score on a standardized test or GPA is above a certain level is moved to a pool, a lottery or would be fair.

            The college should make available information as to the relative weighting of these factors.

            Yes, one of the purposes of making information about government processes public is to allow members of the public to air their views about the process and, if so inclined, urge changes.

            For example, if one uses the New York State Senate website to research state law, on the top of each webpage is the following, “Find your Senator and share your views on important issues.” To the right is a button to begin the search process.

    2. Not Today Avatar

      Efforts to create an objective ‘adversity score’ would meet the same fate as the college board’s attempt. I agree WRT legacy admissions though. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/27/us/sat-adversity-score-college-board.amp.html

  8. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDhf9qwiA34

    A little rough, but that’s part of the point. BTW, she did.

  9. walter smith Avatar
    walter smith

    A lot of people posting here who have no knowledge. I will post this on The Jefferson Council site also, but it likely won’t need that preface.
    First, as to legacies, I was quite surprised by the ACTUAL DATA. The legacies do have a higher admission rate. But the Mean SATs for the legacies was also right in the groove of the overall. So it does not appear as preferential as people think, and it probably reflects that the parents were educated (hence, “legacies” – get it?)
    As to the admissions process – I don’t think there can be any doubt that UVA discriminates on the basis of race, but does it in an obscure manner, ON PURPOSE. I believe this was a result of the Michigan case – Gratz or Gruttinger or something like that, where “holistic” consideration of applications came into account. The Supremes over-ruled the specific percentage racial thumb on the scale, but hide it behind an obscure process and they let it stand. This is not that different from Bakke, where dictum from Powell spawned the loophole (he speculated that if you could show some educational benefit to racial discrimination in the racial diversity producing better education results, then maybe it was OK. So, the admissions all just proclaim it, but none has studied it and to the extent studies show it is a negative (the mismatch effect), it is disparaged or ignored.)
    UVA’s admissions for the class of 2026 showed an overall offer rate of 19%
    For whites, the offer rate was 17%
    For blacks it was 29%
    Hispanics were something like 20% and Asians something like 22%
    Race Unknown had a higher offer rate than whites.
    All of the “Mean” SAT scores for the other groups were substantially higher than for the blacks. So how did “blacks” have a 29% offer rate vs a 17% rate for “whites?”
    UVA uses a screening software which it will not disclose any further to me – perhaps a legislator should ask about it – that assigns a “score” for “school” and for “neighborhood.”
    I would like to see the schools and neighborhoods and the resulting scores. My hypothesis is that my daughter would have substantially different “scores” for putting in a different school and a different neighborhood. UVA also refuses to admit that there is any kind of a “score” with the first screen software. I think that has to be a lie. UVA received over 50,000 applications and there was NO standard? So, different screeners had different standards and that was OK?
    I will keep trying with FOIA, but I believe the citizens of the Commonwealth and the alumni should know how the applicants are graded. It appears to me that if I was a white applicant, I would try to be Race Unknown and I would rent a place in a horrible neighborhood to get a better neighborhood score. Prove my hypothesis wrong.

    1. Not Today Avatar

      Please identify the schools/districts from which students with lower scores originated that you would (also) happily send your daughter to. Thx! Also, pls. identify which of the life circumstances those students may have experienced you would like your child to have/know in depth?

      1. walter smith Avatar
        walter smith

        Please explain how a zip code defines you. Are all people required to be the same due to a zip code? Sounds kinda “racist” to me…
        And schools have to be bad based on zip codes? What to do about the Governor’s School? Is it possible to have a bad education because you did not do the work at a so-called “good” school? Is it possible to have a good education due to personal effort at a so-called “bad” school? Is it possible for rich kids to be total screw ups and blow up their lives? Is it possible for poor kids and kids from broken homes to have good outcomes due to good habits?
        Asking for a non-racist friend who presumes things based on skin color….

          1. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Why should I read anything from you Larry? Particularly the ComPost. If you have a point, state it. Otherwise, I already know the the way to teach reading – phonetically – you know, the one the teachers’ unions oppose.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            My point is in the article.

            just take a minute…

          3. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Nope. I waste too much time with someone reflexively wrong as it is…

        1. Not Today Avatar

          This is a joke, yes? A craptastic one? Sir, hie thyself off to the nearest Google and look up social determinants of health, poverty, wealth, longevity/lifespan, environmental pollution, and crime BY ZIPCODE. When you’ve done your homework, I’d be happy to discuss this topic. Until then, it’s not my job to give you a crash course in reality. Zip code isn’t race ergo it meets the plausible deniability (read: neutrality) test and yet it’s WELL KNOWN that zip code is an EXCELLENT proxy for life, health, and wealth outcomes. Stop moving the goalposts. You wanted neutral, and u can have it, Texas and CA style. What they got is top schools dominated by Asian students (CA) and a UT flagship that’s incredibly diverse both economically and ethnically that ALSO has to teach remedial classes to get kids up to speed.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            those zips go down to the block level and are used by sellers of stuff as well as political folks big time.

          2. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            I guess you never heard of disparate impact analysis, huh?
            You Lefties invented it to presume discrimination. The only difference here is it is in fact intentional racial discrimination.
            Oh…and it’s neutral! Sez who? Who came up with the scores? Racist liberals – the soft bigotry of low expectations.

          3. Not Today Avatar

            Bwahaaa… disparate impact is essentially moot as pertains to civil rights law. So says SCOTUS. Dude, you are about to get what you wanted and you’re STILL not happy. Take the win. Lol.

            The cold, hard truth is that the low expectations are currently what’s hurting white men most. They have been able to skate by on connections and mediocrity for too long and the competition, in a stats only/neutral world, won’t favor them. Women, particularly white and Asian women, will swipe the majority of slots at the best schools in America. Just like the Dobbs decision, be careful what you wish for.

          4. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            No, I want UVA to obey the law. Even if the Supremes rule against Harvard and UNC, the higher Ed’s will still discriminate. They know they are discriminating now and don’T care. I want MLK’s “dream.”

          5. Not Today Avatar

            That dream is predicated on the idea that all men (and women) are equal, have equal opportunities, have equal clout, have equal value under the law and in fact…none of that is true. Actuaries don’t lie. If you’re suggesting that the UC and UT systems ‘discriminate’, I beg to differ. Their systems reflect the conservative wet dream, the ideal. Neither reflects the OUTCOME (gasp) that you prefer tho. Why is that? I’m not worried about that race-neutral future because it’s no different than the present for me/my family.

            I have a modicum of sympathy for those who have not prepared themselves or their children for this reality but very little empathy. I’m working on that. My children are privileged and I’m woman enough to admit that. I would neither want nor hope my child takes a slot from the kind of student I was given all that I did/overcame. The same is true of DH. We both regard our kids as ‘soft’ in comparison.

            Too many people are so focused on themselves and their own circle to notice the be big picture. Meritocracy doesn’t mean I win, always. It means the best and most deserving man/woman does. If that’s not you, today, do better and work harder. Period.

          6. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            So what are you disagreeing with then?
            What outcome do you think I want?
            I want UVA to quit discriminating on the basis of race. I would also like UVA not to discriminate on the basis of sex or religion. I would like UVA not to offer extra points for behaviors that were within the last 20 years regarded as aberrant.
            My point about my daughter was that if my zip was Windsor Farms and she went to St Cat’s or Collegiate, I bet she would have gotten a lower score, and she was the same girl. That is arbitrary and unfair and capricious. To achieve an illegal end.

          7. Not Today Avatar

            I gave you two examples of non-discriminatory admissions policies that are likely coming to VA and you liked…neither. I asked you to consider why that was. You didn’t, wouldn’t, or found that too onerous a task. Find the wherewithal to do this work, not for me, but for you. UVA isn’t going to stop prioritizing LGBTQ leaders because THEY LEAD regardless of whether you find their behaviors or issues abhorrent. I think you want a glide path for the talented HETEROSEXUAL kids of wealthy suburban parents.

            Lemme put it this you like this…

            DH and I told our kids that the best thing they could do was GET A DAMN JOB!! So many families in our area prioritize test scores and GPAs at the expense of life skills like budgets and delayed gratification. These kids (especially!!) need to meet people, at all ages and stages of life, AT WORK. They need to know what it means to need money. Their ‘job’ isn’t to learn and get good grades. That’s their opportunity and our expectation. Their job is to contribute and give to others.

            The future of college admissions isn’t race. It’s EXPERIENCE. What have you done? What have you seen/experienced/overcome? What can your contribute? If you cannot answer these questions with anything special, you’re screwed at a top tier school regardless of your grades/test scores. That’s the same advice I give to my kids now and it won’t change regardless of what SCOTUS or the VA legislature does.

          8. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Try again. I want fair competition for the spots. Life isn’t fair. And UVA is destroying its value proposition. It is not teaching how to think. It is compelling, enforcing, reinforcing, rewarding WHAT to think. And I said aberrant, not abhorrent. Hey, I’m a wife beater, can I get extra points for that? I’m a liar and will make a great politician. Can I get extra points for my lying?

          9. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            It would be nice if you actually had any idea what I think. You clearly don’t know. I suspect we agree on quite a bit based on your lengthy sob story diatribes.
            Different people are different. Different people are different even within “disadvantaged” or “privileged” neighborhoods. They are not determined by race or income. Surely it affects the starting point; it does not determine the ending point.
            I want UVA to get back to education. To obey the law. To stop the monolithic pedagogy and systematic propagation and reinforcement of the monolith. UVA is destroying its value and it will just be another indoctrination center with pretty brick buildings if it is not corrected soon.
            But, if you are really so concerned that inequality determines outcome, then give all of your money above the median to those poorer than you to make it equal.
            Don’t you think Jim Ryan should get by on $100,000 a year and free rent in a $20 million dollar mansion and give his $900k extra in annual pay to reduce tuition for the “disadvantaged?”
            Virtue signaling is easy – especially when you do it with other people’s money!

          10. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            LOL, you have NO IDEA what I think.
            1. I made a point about legacies that was based on the data. The simple FACT is that while legacies are “offered” at higher rates, the legacy SAT numbers were squarely in the Mean ranges of their cohorts. I suspect it reflects that if the parent went to UVA, the parent likely was well educated and currently affluent and the “legacy” universe was already higher academically, not really needing much, if any, of a preference.
            2. My daughter was posed as a hypothetical, having nothing to do with whether or not she got in or goes to UVA. The hypothetical – take the same girl – my daughter – or my fictional, not yet born daughter – plug in that girl and change only the zip code and the school and what scores do you get? That is the question. Inarguably, she is the exact same person, but gets a different score for zip and school. My hypothesis, and I am positive I am correct (which is why UVA quit being cooperative), is that higher points are awarded for “bad” neighborhoods and “bad” schools, intentionally, to achieve racial discrimination by other means.
            If you are going to argue with someone, you should understand what that person is saying. I think we are in agreement on much of how to deal with life, so I have no idea what you think you are arguing about.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar

      I’d like to see someone actually try to write a law to do what Walter and like-minded think should be done.

      So we’d dictate to UVA and other public colleges a “model policy” for the process for selecting applicants?

      1. walter smith Avatar
        walter smith

        How about not basing decisions on race, which is against the law and which is being done?

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          How about replicating the diversity in society?

        2. Not Today Avatar

          How about basing decisions on TRUE merit, which requires a helluva lot more introspection and evaluation. Of course, that takes money and time, something the proponents of supposed neutrality are also unwilling to provide.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            what? and reward sloth and bad culture? 😉

          2. Not Today Avatar

            It’s just silly, so many folks speaking from a place of ignorance with so much undeserved confidence. CA hasn’t had race conscious admissions since Ward Connerly’s last emission and look what it’s wrought? Did the numbers of white men at Berkeley skyrocket? No. This isn’t what the critics want. They want the deck to be stacked in favor of white men who are increasingly ill prepared for and disinterested in higher education. Women dominate college campuses in terms of attendance and completion. https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/11/27/uc-berkeley-admissions-race-diversity/

          3. LarrytheG Avatar

            You have an uphill road here in BR, but I hope you stay and make them squirm.

          4. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            White men often don’t need college to earn 6-figure salaries. It’s white privilege in action.

            Ask the guy who fixes your furnace when it breaks in the middle of winter for an explanation of how that works.

            My suggestion: Do it AFTER he gives you the bill.

          5. Not Today Avatar

            I don’t see that as a white man thing tho. The trades are desperately understaffed and my non-white cousin is a welder. He supports his SAH wife and family with his pay. It’s a tough life with a shorter working lifespan. The immediacy of salary gains won’t make up for not being able to work until full Social Security collection age (67 today but probably 70+ for me/my kids). His father was also a welder and died three years ago from cancer. He was 73.

            The bigger issue is ‘tracking’. In the past, it was used to funnel low-income and minority kids into the trades and service work. I see that happening today to white men disinterested in college. Folks are so busy worrying about what other people are achieving and not thinking about what’s happening to their own groups top-bottom.

          6. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Not all trades are a tough life.

            My dad retired at 71, was an FAA inspector and an A&P mechanic prior to that. Passed away at 81 due to COPD due to having smoked. You wouldn’t have known from what he looked like, what he drove, or where he lived what his net worth actually was. Social Security was a small part of his retirement. He loved his job, and wouldn’t have retired except that the company he worked for went bankrupt.

          7. Not Today Avatar

            Yesterday is NOT today. The expectations are not the same. The ‘manning’ is not the same. Do more with less takes its toll on bodies and psyches. A friend of mine has a spouse in trade (plumber) and would LOVE to find someone to train/sell the business to and can find no one. If I were folks here, I’d be real concerned that it’s your education-allergic kids/grandkids who’d be tracked into those roles, just as it was for black and brown kids.

          8. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            That’s a pretty negative view of the situation. You’re in the DMV, aren’t you? The DMV tends to not offer much in the way of opportunities in blue collar trades due to the lack of any real industry here.

          9. Not Today Avatar

            Nope, Hampton Roads. We have a lot of robust trade opportunities here. It’s far, FAR better than up north. The history is pretty clear tho about how this goes. Labor shortages are generally filled by shuffling the least of these into undesirable roles and driving the price of labor/work down. We shall see if the pattern holds.

          10. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I haven’t seen labor rates go down. The shop I take my car to raised their hourly rate.

            One thing you must take into account is that these are skilled trades–you can’t do them without some training. Some require a license, which requires a certain number of hours of OJT and classroom education.

            Although I’m sure some would be just happy if they could get a 7-11 day laborer to work on their home’s electrical system, that’s neither legal nor wise.

          11. Not Today Avatar

            The price of Union/skilled labor is significantly higher than the private sector. Union-busting, using ‘right to work’ laws and prohibiting dues collection is a favorite tool used to dilute the voting power of skilled laborers and drive down labor expenses.

        3. Not Today Avatar

          Using geography as a proxy for race and income (b/c of the legacy of housing discrimination and redlining) is no better. Would you accept that option? Only 3-5% of your students’ peers are guaranteed to get into UVA each year?

      2. Not Today Avatar

        It’s just a ridiculous argument. Most parents wouldn’t willingly send their children to subpar schools. It’s why UTs race-neutral process still yields socioeconomic and ethnic diversity. It relies on the fundamentally unequal school systems/districts in which exams take place to supply their best students each year. Collierville parents aren’t moving to rural west Texas to get their kids into UT tho. Why? Because the benefits of better education/opportunity are worth MORE than the hardships of poverty/poor schools. Folks know that intrinsically. They just don’t want the kids who push through those circumstances/hardships to benefit from their Sisyphean labors. Instead, they want to export their already advantaged kids to great schools in other states, displacing our own disadvantaged high achievers. NOT COOL.

        1. James McCarthy Avatar
          James McCarthy

          Parents are not usually in position to dictate college choices. IMO, the college goers themselves dominate the process.

          1. Not Today Avatar

            LOL. Unless your daughter’s experience is different from mine, we’re responsible for what we will and won’t accept/pay for until our children are married, self-supporting parents, or over 24. We had a lot of control over which institutions she considered for a variety of reasons. She had no control over where she lived, yes.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            That way with the wife. Parents said what they would pay for X but not Y.

  10. Not Today Avatar

    There’s a reason they’re called LOTTERY schools. UVa could easily fill all available slots with out of state students from the northeast and west who have near perfect SAT scores but then they wouldn’t be fulfilling their mission as a Virginia institution, subsidized by Virginia taxpayers, either. DUH. That’s the process. The only people complaining are the ones who’ve been sold the idea of American Meritocracy (TM) as fact. Everyone else has always known admissions was a game, with ever-changing rules that favor the privileged/connected, bold, beautiful, and rare. Play it or not. Your choice.

    On a related note, the demographic bust that awaits will make beggars of all but the most selective institutions. UVa May be among the few to weather the storm unscathed. You’re welcome. Regional state universities and colleges, not so much.

  11. Not Today Avatar

    I read/follow here mostly to learn the zeitgeist of the men who still largely control the levers of power in VA. The commentary is generally foreign to me but well-reasoned. This, however, is flat out silly. The author could easily set up a dummy account on the common app to read the essay prompt OPTIONS available to students each year. They’re also googl-able. They don’t vary much. He didn’t. Outrage is so much more edifying, no?

    Some schools require additional essays too. The idea that a Boy Scout who plays lacrosse, gets good grades and has high test scores has earned a golden ticket to UVa is so far off the mark I don’t know where to begin. Colleges like UVA are comparing this kid to a single parent child from rural Wyoming who gets up at dawn to feed livestock, tutors peers, works at Arby’s to help pay bills, has a 4.0 at a school that only offers 3 AP classes and earned a 1350 on the SAT. The lacrosse kid looks like a slouch in comparison. They’re comparing that kid to the child of hourly workers in urban Cleveland who dodged needles, bullets and gangs to graduate with the same GPA while holding down a job, caring for siblings, leading school clubs, and singing in the church choir. NO ONE is guaranteed admission at a lottery school. NO ONE.

    1. VaPragamtist Avatar
      VaPragamtist

      Excellent comment.

      UVA is clearly trying to evolve their public persona from the sweater-around-the-neck white country club elitist school to an institution that cultivates world leaders in today’s society.

      With 30,000 applicants and a 24% OOS acceptance rate, UVA can be very strategic in their acceptance decisions. Students advantaged enough to attend WV’s best high school (#550 in the nation), with high test scores, high GPA, and a laundry list of extracurricular activities are a dime a dozen. Quantitatively there’s nothing that makes them stand out from the crowd.

      That’s where the optional essays come in: to provide the reviewers with qualitative measures, give the application color and substance. What makes this applicant a better choice than the other 29,999? Some may connect their story to race, religion, ethnicity, gender, whatever; others may discuss leadership, personal achievement, or service. Either way, the story needs to be compelling.

      If this applicant didn’t get in, it’s because his story wasn’t compelling enough. He may have assumed the quantitative metrics were enough. Or he ignored the optional essays or wrote them at the last minute or didn’t give them enough thought or tailored his response to UVA. In any case, sounds like his own inadequacy kept him out.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        It’s actually quite a journey from when they were an institution for Plantation Owners boys.

    2. Cathis398 Avatar

      let alone that schools like UVa receive applications from literal thousands of well-qualified applicants. at least half of those who are rejected are the equal of many of those who get admitted. it’s worse at Harvard and Yale of course. but the fact is that there is a hard limit to the number of admits each school can take, and that means many, many, many “qualified” applicants will be denied. of course when they are really that qualified, as this student appears to be, they’ll be admitted to many other schools.

      college admissions is not some kind of qualifying exam where everyone above a certain score wins. If the school has 6000 spaces for admissions, and there are 20000 wonderfully qualified applicants (my numbers are made up but the facts aren’t), a lot of wonderfully qualified people are still going to be denied admission. i’m not sure exactly what JB or others who believe this is some kind of scandal think is supposed to be done about this.

  12. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    “Perhaps those inferences are unfair.”

    Given that the selection criteria you quote are almost verbatim what my kids faced from not just UVA but pretty much every selective school they applied to (both in and out of Virginia) and this was long before your DEI boogeyman existed anywhere… I’d say that is a pretty safe bet.

  13. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    So a smart kid got rejected. Boo hoo.

  14. On a side note, I’m surprised you would go anywhere near TikTok, Mr. Sherlock.

  15. University of Virginia is a public school. However and whomever they to admit students, the process itself should be made public. Not the rationale for accepting/rejecting each individual, but the criteria they use and the steps they take as they decide which students will be accepted.

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