IEPs Are Not a License for Violent Behavior at School

by Kerry Dougherty

It may be time to rethink the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA), which was signed into law in 1990 by then-President George H. W. Bush.

If the late president had known that some school officials would use a wrinkle in this law to keep psychopaths in the classroom I wonder if he would have signed it.

IDEA entitled students to a free and appropriate education in the least restrictive environment possible. It meant kids with physical, mental and emotional disabilities could get individualized learning plans and ideally have an education tailored to their needs.

It’s a well-intended piece of legislation built on several earlier laws that also attempted to give those with disabilities the same opportunities as other children for a free public education. It appears that IDEA may have been expanded to mean that a child with an IEP has a license to be disruptive and even violent while teachers are powerless to get them out of class. If that’s the case, well, it’s time to narrow the law.

Or scrap it.

The rights of non-disruptive students to an education ought to trump the rights of any budding psychopaths who pose a danger to their fellow students and teachers.

Yes, I’m talking about the shooting of first-grade teacher Abby Zwerner on January 6 at Richneck Elementary School in Newport News by a student with disabilities.

According to news stories, emails between Zwerner and school officials now document the fact that the shooter was a major problem all year, and his teacher begged for help from school officials. In November Zwerner sent an email saying she didn’t feel comfortable having this kid back in class after a one-day suspension.

But back he was.

At some point Richneck school officials are going to be forced to explain why they worried more about coddling one disruptive student than they did about a safe learning environment for every other student in the class. And for the teacher.

IEP stands for Individualized Education Program, which is a legal document that attempts to construct a plan to help educate a student with documented disabilities. Schools are obligated to meet each child’s needs in a regular school environment.

And yes, this program is often hard on classroom teachers if they have a student who requires intensive hands-on help. But this program was never intended to be a license for uncontrolled violent behavior.

On behalf of all parents whose children have IEPs, I think it needs to be said that many of these students are great kids who simply learn differently and more slowly than their classmates.

In fact, allowing a student to physically attack classmates and teachers — the Richneck shooter reportedly tried to strangle another teacher and threw one student to the ground — and be practically untouchable, is a bastardization of this program.

How do I know?

My son had an IEP. He had learning disabilities and his IEP meant he left his classroom during the day to get extra help and he received accommodations, such as having extra time to take tests.

As a result of his struggles to learn my son wasn’t at the top of his class, academically. But he never once was a discipline problem.

In fact, his first-grade teacher told me that when she passed out corrected papers she always gave my son his first, because my kid always smiled and said “Thank you.” His politeness was contagious, she told me.

My kid didn’t win a lot of academic awards but he unfailingly won citizenship and courtesy awards year after year. I wouldn’t trade those good behavior certificates for honor roll citations, either. I was proud of my boy.

But turning a program designed to give kids like mine a chance to learn at their own pace into an excuse to put a classroom full of students and a teacher in harm’s way is an abomination.

If that is truly the way IDEA is being interpreted by the courts, it’s time to scrap it.

Republished with permission from Kerry: Unemployed and Unedited. 


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120 responses to “IEPs Are Not a License for Violent Behavior at School”

  1. If that is truly the way IDEA is being interpreted by the courts, it’s time to scrap it.

    Agreed, but is that the way IDEA is being interpreted by the courts? As a trained reporter, the writer should, perhaps, do some research to find out, instead of just speculating

    1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      The rights of parents under IDEA were significantly expanded by U. S. Supreme Court Case Decision Endrew F. v. Douglas County School District Re-1 in March of 2017.

      The summary is here https://assets.ctfassets.net/p0qf7j048i0q/511CxpkAUtvhkmo12TyfxB/4caff31d3f5bcdd2d3004101db0f1403/qa-endrewcase-12-07-2017.pdf

      The entire ruling is worth a read. See ENDREW F., A MINOR,. v. DOUGLAS COUNTY SCHOOL DISTRICT RE–1. https://assets.ctfassets.net/p0qf7j048i0q/P8u3sriN2iN2TWI8j0hNu/dddf57cb7238eadd078431fe07c8a982/15-827_0pm1.pdf

      Endless complexities of individual situations require courts, when suits are filed, to rule one case at a time depending upon the circumstances of the individual child.

      Nothing that I can find, however, suggests that schools need stand for uncontrollable disruptive behavior in general population classroom environments.

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Your last sentence assumes more than the source of the quote in the first place.

  2. If that is truly the way IDEA is being interpreted by the courts, it’s time to scrap it.

    Agreed, but is that the way IDEA is being interpreted by the courts? As a trained reporter, the writer should, perhaps, do some research to find out, instead of just speculating

  3. Matt Adams Avatar
    Matt Adams

    Flippantly labeling people as “psychopaths” without knowledge of the disease (which is rather obvious given you label people who don’t adhere to the known symptoms) or their disease does nothing but diminish your point.

    “At some point Richneck school officials are going to be forced to explain why they worried more about coddling one disruptive student than they did about a safe learning environment for every other student in the class. And for the teacher.”

    The school officials failed to act appropriately in their capacity, just as the parents failed in their capacity. There wasn’t coddling, it was providing and education for a child with a disability who likely doesn’t have the understanding to know that they were wrong.

    To say I find this continued demonization of children with disabilities mildly disturbing, would be an understatement.

  4. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    The flaw in the IEP is the exit strategies. The number of kids who successfully exit the IEP is the best measure of the success of IDEA. Personally, I think the label of an IEP is far more damaging than the disability. I recognize that many students must and need to have one. There are plenty who really don’t need one and an IEP turns into a crutch.

    1. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      The term IEP is also a misnomer as it’s applied equally to both those with learning disabilities and those with mental handicaps.

      There is a stark contrast between someone who is on the spectrum vs someone who has dyslexia, yet they both are covered under the term IEP.

      1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
        James C. Sherlock

        IEP is not a misnomer as used here, which you yourself explain.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          Merriam-Webster is your friend.

          ” a wrong name or inappropriate designation”

          Individualized Education Program (IEP) is a designation for any program outside of the norm. It is the same term applied to someone on the spectrum vs someone with dyslexia. Those are vastly different items.

      2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead

        Exactly. I can think of so many former students who simply could not function in an educational setting without the support mechanisms and monitoring of the IEP process. The grease that made the IEP wheel work best was usually a series of teachers, some of whom were probably top shelf, that made learning possible.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          I don’t know what is was like in VA, but I know that in PA. All that is stated to the teacher is that the student has an IEP, and this is their plan.

          There is no explanation provided or details given.

          1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            When I worked in Loudoun it was a very detailed plan for many students. Usually, teachers whined about attending IEP meetings with a long table filled with SPED experts, kid/parent, and an administrator. The meetings could be long and boring. I looked forward to them. I usually could sway the committee into adopting accommodations that were reasonable, measurable, and had some chance of delivering results. I would call those IEP parents at least once every grading period. When a kid sees that a teacher cares they just might start actually following the plan and sense of self worth begins to materialize.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Sounds like a very good program and they were certainly lucky to have you as faculty.

            My experience stems from my father the shop teacher, an oddity class to still be taught in a traditional HS (I know), but it was used as a dumping ground mostly.

            People are up in arms about this situation. Think of a one to one in a metal shop and who’s almost the age of majority.

          3. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            It only works if the stakeholders all play ball and stop picking dandy lions in the outfield.

    2. Kathleen Smith Avatar
      Kathleen Smith

      Amen to that Brother James!!!

  5. People can hide behind a plethora of bureaucratic programs and forms….. the simple truth… this criminal should not have been in a classroom with other children who wanted to learn and teachers who wanted to teach.

  6. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Say it out loud, “six years old”. Add in if you’d like, “economically disadvantaged”. ( That’s just based on NN median income and the probability of)

    Now ask yourself, “How many times in his short life did this child have a diagnosis opportunity that would have been able to determine a threat to himself or others?”

    Criminal, eh KLS? Geez.

    1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      Nancy, you are wrong on this one. It is not a social grievance issue.

      The IEP process requires a diagnosis. It is the primary function of school psychologists to conduct the testing.

      Decisions on how to help the child progress as required under IDEA are made with the participation of each kid’s patents.

      IEPs are not suicide pacts.

      But this kid had the tests, the diagnosis was made, the IEP was designed, and he turned out to be unable to control himself under that IEP within a general population grade school.

      NN schools had and frequently used access to federal/state CSA funding to allow IEPs to put kids in private schools specially designed for kids like the shooter.

      His violent activity in NN schools for 18 months before he pulled the trigger were more than enough for this kid to have joined them.

      Now he is, inarguably, a criminal. Didn’t need to happen.

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        “Now he is, inarguably, a criminal. Didn’t need to happen.”

        While Virginia has no minimum age of criminal responsibility, you’re not going to get past that pesky “competency” requirement to charge him.

        He doesn’t belong in the system, he belongs in a place where he can get the care he deserves, he’s a child after all.

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Barring admitting to a HIPPA violation, just what were the results of his tests? What do you “know” of his evaluations?

      3. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        “Now he is, inarguably, a criminal. Didn’t need to happen.”

        While Virginia has no minimum age of criminal responsibility, you’re not going to get past that pesky “competency” requirement to charge him.

        He doesn’t belong in the system, he belongs in a place where he can get the care he deserves, he’s a child after all.

    2. Kathleen Smith Avatar
      Kathleen Smith

      I agree totally. He went through the IEP placement committee that found that he was at risk for learning at his grade level due to his emotional problems. He was not diagnosed with any disorder by the school system as a school psychologist does not have the credentials to do that. That requires an outside psychiatrist. Did he have an outside psychiatrist?

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Kathleen,

        If the NNPD evaluations (BIG IF) concerned only his ability to learn in a classroom environment, not violent behavior, and if (a bigger IF) the reports that the gun was stored aloft in a closet with a key-operated trigger lock, and a 6-year old demonstrated the ability to
        1) retrieve and load the gun,
        2) locate and use the key,
        3) secret the gun in his backpack, and
        4) use foresight not to leave it in his unattended bag,
        then, wow yes, I’d say those evaluations were bang on — sounds like he’s perfectly capable of learning in a classroom environment.

        But here’s an important question, “Can any Virginia school system order, or compel the parents to obtain, the level of psychiatric evaluation?”

        1. Kathleen Smith Avatar
          Kathleen Smith

          To my knowledge no. We had a parent who refused to get a psychiatric evaluation of a child who showed every sign of being a sociopath. The family was actually evicted from HUD housing because started fires and killed pets. His mother finally signed off when he fell off a wall and ruptured his spleen. He was on the wall as he was told not to. Oppositional was his good to okay behavior. But then, his father ran through a plate glass window in the courtroom in shackles and handcuffs when he was found guilty for stabbing a man and hanging him from a railroad truss. Honestly, you can’t make this stuff up.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            yow!

          2. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            No. Sadly, you can’t. Given the adults around though, nature-nurture, eh?

          3. Lefty665 Avatar

            Likely both.

        2. Lefty665 Avatar

          What makes you think the parents would have to obtain a psychiatric evaluation?

          The school could order it and will have a relationship with an outside psychiatrist it consults as needed.

          The chances that gun was properly secured are slim and none. If a 6 year old can make it go bang, it ain’t secure. Maybe it was kept next to the kids toy ‘vette.

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Like I said, “Big IF”. But, we know damned little. We do know the parents were separated and would any hostility just have been blamed on such unrest, even by a trained psychiatrist? Many of the major psychiatric problems can be diagnosed with pet scans, but would it have even have come to that?

            Can it? Can the school compel compliance with a psychiatric exam? You know that for sure? Who pays?

          2. Lefty665 Avatar

            In my wife’s school system, they sometimes ordered outside psychiatric services. She never heard of a family refusing it, families know when they have a screwed up kid.

            The school may not have been able to enforce it, same as with meds. With school ordered services the school paid.

            “Many of the major psychiatric problems can be diagnosed with pet scans”

            Some forms of schizophrenia are caused by a chemical imbalance. I used to work with an old psychiatrist who said “Those dam schizophrenics I can smell them the moment they come in the door”. For that form of the disease he could reliably make that diagnosis.

            Determining what’s wrong with me by scanning my dog, I’m not so sure:)

          3. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Oh, I dunno. Our dogs can tell a lot about us. I’m sure that the first time one of speaks English, that be the end of them.

          4. Have you ever read the short story “Thomas Edison’s Shaggy Dog” by Kurt Vonnegut?

          5. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            No. I haven’t, but considering my comment and a little of Vonnegut, I can imagine that I’d like it.

            BTW, there’s a video floating around of a woman’s selfie where she’s checking our her outfit in a mirror and her huskie walks in, yawns, and it very distinctly sounds like he says “Where you going?” I don’t think it’s enhanced.

          6. I tried to post a link to a pdf version of it, but it didn’t work.

          7. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            I’ll find it.

          8. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Ah, once an eagle…. By our own are we smitten.

            Good ending.

      2. Warmac9999 Avatar
        Warmac9999

        The best psychiatrist still doesn’t get it rights 100% of the time. Nobody can read minds and nobody could have read this six year old’s mind minutes before he shot the teacher. Apparently, the closest thing to awareness was another child who was fearful.

  7. Ronnie Chappell Avatar
    Ronnie Chappell

    Reading these comments make clear the reason teachers aren’t allowed – are not trusted – to ensure their classrooms are places where children are safe and kind to each other, and learning comes first. Is it any wonder so many kids can’t read or do math at grade level?

  8. Kathleen Smith Avatar
    Kathleen Smith

    The IEP was legally recognized under the Education for All Handicapped Children Act (EHA) in 1975.

    I became a special education teacher in that year.

    After spending years in public schools and countless IEP meetings and placement meetings for both special education and discipline, not to mention causal hearings to decide if the behavior of a student with disabilities was a result of his/her disability or not, I must say, FOLLOW the MONEY.

    It costs to place children in day schools where wrap around services (mental health services) can be found. It costs to place deaf and blind children at the School for the Deaf and Blind, where some students might do much better, they are not given that opportunity as it costs money. The cost is on the school system.

    These placements are for a very small percentage of children with disabilities, or often called low-incident disabilities. This six year old needed help in a big way it appears.

    He wasn’t given that help. Why? FOLLOW the MONEY.

    The school for the deaf and blind in Florida has about 600 enrolled, in Virginia, less than 100. WHY? Florida allows any parent of a deaf and/or blind student access (very minor restrictions) to enroll the student in the school through school choice. Not even age dependent. Many parents move to St. Augustine so that they can be near their child or so the child can attend during the day only. Virginia does not allow choice. It must come through the IEP committee and the systems don’t want to give up any additional money to educate the child. Some would be covered by medicare, some would not.

    I interviewed a deaf and blind teenager who said she felt so totally alone in the public school. She had no friends and could not communicate with her peers in any meaningful way. At the Virginia School for the Deaf and Blind School, she is happy and thriving. To me, that said it all.

    I have visited many day schools throughout the state. I wish I would had have an opportunity to work in these schools as a teacher. I would have much enjoyed the students, the comradery, and opportunity to really change a child’s life in a significant way.

    1. Thank you for speaking for those who cannot speak for themselves.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar

      Hey Kathleen.

      When you say “follow the money”, I’m not completely following.

      If these services are not provided when they are needed, why not?

      Who is supposed to fund them?
      local? State? Feds? parents?

      Is this something Mr. Youngkin should be addressing?

      1. Warmac9999 Avatar
        Warmac9999

        There arent enough resources in the universe to achieve perfection in these matters.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          Right. We should go back to the way we did it before the IEP law, right?

          1. Warmac9999 Avatar
            Warmac9999

            Maybe we should investigate alternatives. Big question – is the IEP system beneficial and worth the cost? It seems to me that damaging the education of an entire class of kids to benefit one person ought to be investigated – and then what should be done if that is the case.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            DO that while IEP continues to operate, or shut it down and start over?

            Schools will no longer accept kids with “needs” until we come up with a better system?

          3. Warmac9999 Avatar
            Warmac9999

            Both good issues. Actually you can do both using random sampling and you can also refer to historical data. Has mainstreaming accomplished its objective?

          4. LarrytheG Avatar

            I think many who benefit from it will have a positive view. But like all things,
            it will never be perfect or without flaws. DO you start over with new or reform what you have?

          5. Warmac9999 Avatar
            Warmac9999

            What are the advantages of both. Stop and thin for a minute. Many parents have found the public school system to be an utter failure and they demand vouchers so they can escape the failure. Same applies to the IEP idea – and you have to include non-disadvantaged parents in the investigation because their children are being deprived of resources to benefit the disadvantaged children.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar

            Stop and think what you are saying when you say “many”. Do you know how MANY
            DO think that public schools are NOT failures and do have good outcomes? How many with kids who need IEPs who do NOT think the schools are failures and rely on the services that public schools provide? Vouchers won’t fix these problems because voucher schools do not want the economically disadvantaged kids much less the special needs kids. What those schools want are the kids with college-educated parents whose kids are relatively easy
            to teach. re: ” because their children are being deprived of resources to benefit the disadvantaged children.” , so you’d do what? use the money for vouchers and not fund the disadvantaged kids?

          7. Warmac9999 Avatar
            Warmac9999

            Your assumptions are not backed by reality. There were schools for the blind in Philadelphia – I lived there near one.

          8. Lefty665 Avatar

            Nobody is advocating “damaging the education of an entire class of kids to benefit one person”

            Get a grip.

          9. Warmac9999 Avatar
            Warmac9999

            However, it isn’t about advocating it is about actuality. You cannot deny that a constantly disruptive and even dangerous child actually changes the classroom dynamics for the worse.

          10. Lefty665 Avatar

            Neither you nor I know that the kid was disruptive while he was accompanied by a 1:1 aide.

            His reported disruptive behavior may well have been before the 1:1 staffing. It may be why 1:1 was prescribed.

            Why this is news now is because the school failed to deal with him and sent him to class unaccompanied when he showed up to school sans aide. That was the profound and precipitating failure that was compounded by failure to find the gun after being warned. Those failures produced the disaster.

            All kids are guaranteed a free public education. They are not guaranteed one with no distractions or only for the impeccably socialized.

            This kid was on the edge and may have already been on the way to a restricted, psychiatric, educational environment. The 1:1 aide was only a half step short of that.

            With aide he may not have had to take that half step. Without the school failure to staff as the IEP prescribed and the failure to find the gun he also may have taken it without any of us knowing about it.

            The school screwed up big time. More heads should roll.

          11. Warmac9999 Avatar
            Warmac9999

            I am talking about generalities. However, recent news reports have him scaring other children. That is disruption.

          12. Lefty665 Avatar

            But you don’t know when. That may have been resolved with the aide.

            The IEP certainly addressed the issues and may have been effective until its prescription of a 1:1 aide failed and the school failed to back it up.

      2. Kathleen Smith Avatar
        Kathleen Smith

        At one time, Petersburg was paying almost $350,000 for one student. No, these placements are not fully funded. Day schools run 100 per day per child or $180,000 per year.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          so, need more money or… something different?

        2. Lefty665 Avatar

          $100 for 180 days is $18k, not $180k. $180k would be $1,000 a day. That’s a bit much for a day school.

          No doubt residential psychiatric educational placements are very expensive. $350k seems high, but it has been into 6 figures for 20+ years.

  9. James Kiser Avatar
    James Kiser

    It is called the feds, the monster in the room that makes the rules and everyone pays for their mistakes except them.

  10. Matt Adams Avatar
    Matt Adams

    Flippantly labeling people as “psychopaths” without knowledge of the disease (which is rather obvious given you label people who don’t adhere to the known symptoms) or their disease does nothing but diminish your point.

    “At some point Richneck school officials are going to be forced to explain why they worried more about coddling one disruptive student than they did about a safe learning environment for every other student in the class. And for the teacher.”

    The school officials failed to act appropriately in their capacity, just as the parents failed in their capacity. There wasn’t coddling, it was providing and education for a child with a disability who likely doesn’t have the understanding to know that they were wrong.

    To say I find this continued demonization of children with disabilities mildly disturbing, would be an understatement.

    “My son had an IEP. He had learning disabilities and his IEP meant he left his classroom during the day to get extra help and he received accommodations, such as having extra time to take tests.”

    Also, the fact that your child had a learning disability and had a Individual Education Program (IEP) and you’re still making these type of statements, is in a word disgusting.

    1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      If you object so strongly to the word coddling, Matt, what would you replace it with in a sentence describing why that child was still allowed to be in school to shoot that teacher?

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        The child had an IEP that required one to one resources, that didn’t occur by fault of the parent and the school on this fateful day. They failed the child and the teacher. Again, this continued demonization of a child with an acute disability just diminishes anything you say on the subject.

        ” to treat with extreme or excessive care or kindness : PAMPER”

        This child wasn’t being “pampered” they were being provided an education in the least restrictive means possible.

        It’s very evident that neither of you have ever had to care for someone who is mentally handicapped.

        (PS: A learning disability isn’t a mental handicap).

        https://ldaamerica.org/is-a-learning-disability-considered-a-mental-illness/#:~:text=Answer%3A,specific%20areas%20of%20the%20brain.

        1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          Nothing in federal court interpretation of IDEA suggests that a kid displaying uncontrolled violent behavior must be accommodated in mainstream classrooms.

          Federal, State Children’s Services Act (CSA) funds for private special schools are available and were regularly used by NN for about a hundred kids a year, just not for this one.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Nothing in federal court interpretation of IDEA suggests that a kid displaying uncontrolled violent behavior must be accommodated in mainstream classrooms.

            Federal, State Children’s Services Act (CSA) funds for private special schools are available and were regularly used by NN for about a hundred kids a year, just not for this one.”

            Ask the school district why they didn’t push for this child to be in those special schools.

            You’re again taking behavior out of context. This child has a mental handicap (they were failed by the school, their parent and the state), the notion that they have the same cognitive understanding as any other 6 year old, even with a learning disability and utter idiocy.

  11. James C. Sherlock Avatar
    James C. Sherlock

    Excellent column that will cue the attacks by a few parents of spec ed kids on the writer, the mother of a spec ed kid.

    It is a subject fraught with emotion, and thus militancy.

    Federal laws put all of the cards in the hands of the parents. The large number of spec ed kids has brought forth a portion of the bar to press their cases. Schools pretty much have to cede to parents wishes for accommodations.

    Most parents of spec ed kids covet the opportunities their children are given, but they all naturally worry about their children.

    I have a grandson who had an IEP in grade school. He grew out of his issues. Both he and his teachers put up with a lot.

    It was a phase for him. I very much realize it is much more than a phase for many.

    But a discussion of the problems caused by IEP kids who present antisocial symptoms in school is a necessary one, and is important to preserve the learning environments for all students.

    1. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      You two should take the time to learn the difference between “mental handicaps and learning disabilities”.

      “But a discussion of the problems caused by IEP kids who present antisocial symptoms in school is a necessary one, and is important to preserve the learning environments for all students.”

      Again, diagnosing without a shred of education on the topic.

      1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
        James C. Sherlock

        At no point did either of us indicate that we did not understand that difference, Matt.

        You are angry and lashing out, but should stick to the facts.

        We have “diagnosed” the shooter kid had an IEP, but it was incompetently written and executed.

        Based on his frequent violent actions, he should have never still been a student in that elementary school when he shot the teacher. That was the school’s fault.

        That division had access to CSA funding for special ed private schools that it used for other kids, just not for him.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          “At no point did either of us indicate that we did not understand that difference, Matt.”

          Your own words beg to differ, and I quote:

          “I have a grandson who had an IEP in grade school. He grew out of his issues. Both he and his teachers put up with a lot.”

          Considering one doesn’t grow out of the “spectrum”. Your comment mirrors Kerry’s comments and they a completely and utterly barren.

          “You are angry and lashing out, but should stick to the facts.”

          So I’m angry and lashing out? That’s a lovely ad hom attack, but par for your course.

          “We have “diagnosed” the shooter kid had an IEP, but it was incompetently written and executed.”

          Strawman, much? Where have I stated otherwise, I think I in fact said those very items.

          “Based on his frequent violent actions, he should have never still been a student in that elementary school when he shot the teacher. That was the school’s fault.”

          Again, where have I indicated otherwise. If you bothered to read what I write vs providing a knee-jerk reaction, perhaps you’d gain a better understanding.

          “That division had access to CSA funding for special ed private schools that it used for other kids, just not for him.”

          Again, I know. I’ve said as such.

          1. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            ‘Considering one doesn’t grow out of the “spectrum” ‘

            One doesn’t grow out of a learning disability either, which is probably the most common reason for an IEP.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “how_it_works an hour ago
            ‘Considering one doesn’t grow out of the “spectrum” ‘

            One doesn’t grow out of a learning disability either, which is probably the most common reason for an IEP.”

            Take your comment up with Sherlock, he indicated his grandson did.

            The point was, a learning disability is not a mental handicap.

          3. Lefty665 Avatar

            “The point was, a learning disability is not a mental handicap.”

            Perhaps an arcane distinction and one that is sometimes so. A learning disability is a disability, it is mental, whether it is a handicap can be a different question.

            A handicap is a disability that is a barrier to employment.

            When talking with the Department of Labor (DoL) about a disabled worker the question they always ask is “We understand that you are describing a disability, but explain how that is a handicap to employment?”

            For example, someone may have a learning disability that prevents them from being able to read. That would be a barrier, a handicap, disqualifying them for a job recording audio books, but it would not be a handicap for a job bussing tables in a restaurant.

          4. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            True enough, but I have RH factor baby for an Uncle. He was born without a thyroid, he is mentally handicapped. He stopped progressing at the age of 4.

            I tend to think of the arguments that are trying to be made by a select few here, where they compare that type of handicap to say dyslexia or something along those lines.

          5. Lefty665 Avatar

            They really are both disabilities. That they express differently and cause very different handicaps to employment does not make them any less disabilities.

            There are so many different ways things can go awry it is sometimes amazing to me that any of us function.

          6. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Very true, Tom Cruise gives hope to everyone with h dyslexia.

            Yes, my wife is a NICU nurse, it is a wonder we function at all.

          7. Lefty665 Avatar

            Have a friend I play music with who is an NICU nurse practitioner. They do amazing things with incredibly fragile babies. Thumbs up to your wife,

          8. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            She’s a saint and not just for being married to me ha.

          9. Lefty665 Avatar

            Have a friend I play music with who is an NICU nurse practitioner. They do amazing things with incredibly fragile babies. Thumbs up to your wife,

        2. Kathleen Smith Avatar
          Kathleen Smith

          CSA funding is not enough. There are limits. And the limits cause the school system to do what they do- not provide needed services. Mental health is a much needed amenity in special education classrooms.

          1. Lefty665 Avatar

            The CSA was created precisely to deal with kids who are beyond the resources of individual institutions to accommodate, specifically, schools, social services, CSBs, courts, etc.

            It has its own stream of funding to serve kids who are referred because they have exceeded the capabilities of primary systems to deal with.

        3. Kathleen Smith Avatar
          Kathleen Smith

          James, we had a very limited amount of CSA funding and it was saved for the most dire of cases. It doesn’t cover what is needed, and in my opinion, is a pathetically small and shallow creek, not a river. It needs to be a river.

          1. Lefty665 Avatar

            CSA funding is a combination of state allocations and local funding. It is not discretionary. While the state may limit its contribution, localities cannot just decide that education for some kids is just too expensive.

            If CSA funding in Newport News or elsewhere is “a pathetically small and shallow creek” it is because local government has not stepped up to its obligations under the law.

        4. Warmac9999 Avatar
          Warmac9999

          The problem with mainstreaming is limited resources and teacher fear of repercussions.

      2. Kathleen Smith Avatar
        Kathleen Smith

        Schools do not address mental health. They address learning. Unfortunately, as a teacher of the emotionally disturbed for 25 years, there were absolutely no wraparound services from a psychologist, social worker, or psychiatrist provided to ANY of my students. This is pathetic. Matt is absolutely correct. There is a vast dark hole in services provided to students who have been labeled as emotionally challenged, even more so for those who are psychotic or schizophrenic. I am not talking about a small hole, I am talking an ocean of services. Again, Follow the Money.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          It’s going to grow even bigger as state institutions close and they are just remanded to jail.

        2. vicnicholls Avatar
          vicnicholls

          A schools’ mission is to teach, not provide social services. If kids cant/won’t be educated, maybe they need other help until they can.

    2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      “Schools pretty much have to cede to parents wishes for accommodations.”

      Aka, the basis of the Right’s “parental rights” rallying cry…

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        indeed!

  12. vicnicholls Avatar
    vicnicholls

    One problem seems some folks are forgetting, IEP’s are to teach children. Children who are ‘on a different wavelength’ in terms of emotional issues need to have those issues resolved to a point where they can learn. The problem no one mentions is that kids see that criminal behavior is ok and nothing will be done.

  13. LarrytheG Avatar

    Back before the advent of the IDEA- Individuals with Disabilities Education Act , what I remember was that kids who had such “needs” were largely not accepted at many public schools. It seemed like it was left up to the parents to deal with the kids needs. Maybe there were other programs?

    Did the govt err in creating this law and we ought to repeal it and go back to the way it was before and parents were responsible for those kids?

    It also seems to not really conform to the equity idea where some kids are given more taxpayer resources than others to “help” them and a more equal system would give each kid the same amount of resources and then let it be on the kid and his/her parents to make the most of their equal share of resources, right?

    1. Warmac9999 Avatar
      Warmac9999

      You have it pretty much correct. A parent and often the family was responsible for a difficult or handicapped child. Often neighbors would chip in to help.

    2. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      According to Wiki,

      ” IDEA was previously known as the Education for All Handicapped Children Act (EHA) from 1975 to 1990. In 1990, the United States Congress reauthorized EHA and changed the title to IDEA.[1]”

      Prior to 1975 I would expect that state law applied, and some states (pretty sure that Illinois is one of them) did have similar laws requiring appropriate services for special ed students.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        So was that overreach by the Feds who should have left the issue up to the states and local schools?

        1. how_it_works Avatar
          how_it_works

          Did I say or insinuate or imply that I believe that to be the case????

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            No. I’m asking the question as some here have seemed to imply such. Your view?

          2. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Some states seem to need a little more help than others from the FedGov.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar

            thanks.

          4. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            To bring this back around to Virginia, it would be interesting to know what Virginia’s state law (prior to the 1975 Federal law) regarding this matter was, if any, and what other states law’s prior to 1975 were.

            Given how long ago that was, it would probably take a lot of work to find the answers.

            I could make some guesses, though. Louisiana and Mississippi had no laws at all. Illinois. Wisconsin, and Minnesota had state laws that were the model for the Federal legislation.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar

            There was a time, in Virginia, not sure when, but most public schools would not enroll kids who had various issues that required resources the schools did not have. There was no “special education” nor help with kids with various intellectual nor physical disabilities. Kathleen probably knows.

          6. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Well, that was probably before Local Composite Index and Federal funding, so those schools may not had enough funding to provide these services. More prosperous school districts in more prosperous states probably DID have the funding and did provide these services. Just a guess, though.

          7. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Here’s what Illinois was doing back then. As I said some states were doing this at the state level long before it was mandated by the Feds.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a2314d6cea5d7efbc6f9b6df8f3fef97f93195bb69f015f5cc7288c416bfaf3e.png

  14. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    “The rights of non-disruptive students to an education ought to trump the rights of any budding psychopaths who pose a danger to their fellow students and teachers.”

    And now Conservatives have moved on to vilification of students with IEPs… not unexpected….

    1. Warmac9999 Avatar
      Warmac9999

      And here you are, a progressive, vilifying students who don’t have IEPs —- not unexpected.

      1. Warmac9999 Avatar
        Warmac9999

        You really need to re-read what you quoted to comment on. You clearly are commenting about those who are conservative.

        By the way, the 6 year old is again in the news for previously trying to strangle a different teacher and threatening other kids.

        1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          Again, I made no comment or inference whatsoever on non-IEP students. Conservatives?… yes, indeed…

    2. Warmac9999 Avatar
      Warmac9999

      You can teach some of the children some of the time but you can’t teach all of the children all of the time.

    3. Lefty665 Avatar

      Read? I would not make any bets this kid can read.

    4. Perhaps if your posts had rhyme or reason they would not be deleted.

      In your case, rhyme is probably your best bet.

      😉

      PS – Sorry, but if you’re going to just soft ball them in like that….

      Have a good one!

  15. Warmac9999 Avatar
    Warmac9999

    The road to hell is paved with the good intentions of government. The founders knew this truism and that is why they wanted the smallest and least intrusive government possible.

  16. Lefty665 Avatar

    “If the late president had known that some school officials would use a wrinkle in this law to keep psychopaths in the classroom I wonder if he would have signed it.”

    That is profoundly wrong on several levels.

    First is the “diagnosis” of a first grader as a “psychopath”. There is no doubt that the kid has severe mental illness, but to make a specific diagnosis without first hand experience combined with professional skills is brain dead.

    Second, there is no evidence that “some school officials would use a wrinkle in the law to keep psychopaths in the classroom…”. That is an equally brain dead assumption.

    The kid had an IEP, that means he had an evaluation. We can infer from the intensity of the plan, a 1:1 aide, that there was a psychiatric evaluation too and a report on the severity of the boys mental illness.

    From reporting we cannot tell when the boys other violent behavior occurred. Was it before or after the prescription of a 1:1 aide? Chances are it was that prior behavior that got him prescribed the 1:1 aide and moved to another school.

    From reporting it appears that his behavior was controlled, and the 1:1 aide was an appropriate plan. It apparently worked until the aide did not show up and the school failed to react by 1) providing an aide, or 2) sending the kid home, or 3) spending the day in the office. Instead they sent him on to class, unaided, and ignored several reports that he had a gun. That is multiple failures of administration.

    From what we have seen so far there is little reason to criticize the IEP. The failure was by the school to intervene when the conditions of the IEP were not met. There is a big difference.

    Maybe this kid needed a more restrictive, psychiatric, educational and perhaps residential setting. Maybe he was already referred to the CSA and this accommodation of a 1:1 aide was the precursor to moving him to a more restrictive setting if it failed. We do not know what steps had already been taken, or were planned, or by whom.

    It is now clear that the kid belongs in a more restrictive setting, and that the Newport News schools have demonstrated that they are not competent to execute an IEP for him.

    Labeling him a criminal in first grade is a stretch. Can a 6 year old be deemed to have criminal intent? He beyond doubt has severe mental illness. He needs, and will get, intensive mental health services in a more restrictive environment than regular public schools.

    Third, blaming the IEP and not the school’s failure to execute it also profoundly misses the point. The adults are supposed to be in charge and to execute good judgement. Newport News schools failed to do that. In the process they also failed this little boy, his teacher and everyone else in the school system. More heads should roll.

    1. Warmac9999 Avatar
      Warmac9999

      From what I previously read, his parents were his aide and they did not show up on the day of the shooting. Also, as horrible as it is to contemplate, some people are evil. There is a story about a teenager who stabbed and killed a girl – she was stabbed in the face over 100 times. He plead guilty. Finally, there is no perfection in human affairs. No matter how hard we try, there is always failure and every policy ought to be designed with that in mind. Sometimes, the policy doesn’t and can’t produce the intended result, and blaming the system is an all too easy out.

      1. Lefty665 Avatar

        Yes, his parents were his aide, assuredly in compliance with his IEP. That is a somewhat unusual arrangement, but sometimes done. That is not material except to indicate that the parents were both aware of the problem and interested in helping the school help their kid.

        The school utterly failed when the aide did not accompany the kid. That did not negate the IEP, the school’s obligation to staff it, send him home or have him spend the day in the office. The failure to find the gun once warned several times is a whole different failure.

        My guess is that if we could see the IEP we would find that there was backup to aides specified and that was disregarded too. The solution was not to just let the kid go to class unattended.

        I’m not blaming the system, there were several supposedly competent adults who utterly failed to do their jobs. The result was a disaster. Individually and collectively they are who are to blame. Can the mofos and impress upon their replacements that if they want to stay employed they need to do better, much better.

        1. Warmac9999 Avatar
          Warmac9999

          You exhonerate the policy and blame the administrators. I blame both, but recognize that perfection in human affairs is not possible. In the end, it is results that matter.

          1. Lefty665 Avatar

            If by “exhonerate the policy” you mean that I believe the Constitution guarantees all citizens due process and the law of the land is that all children shall have a free public education then I plead guilty.

            If by “blame the administrators” you mean that I think the bozos who were running the place should be tarred, feathered and ridden out of town on a rail for going out of their way to get a teacher shot then I plead guilty to that too.

            We agree that results matter. The terrible results in Newport News were predictable and preventable. Even us fallible humans could with a minimum of effort have prevented the tragedy.

          2. Lefty665 Avatar

            If by “exhonerate the policy” you mean that I believe the Constitution guarantees all citizens due process, equal protection, and the law of the land is that all children shall have a free public education then I plead guilty.

            If by “blame the administrators” you mean that I think the bozos who were running the place should be tarred, feathered and ridden out of town on a rail for going out of their way to get a teacher shot then I plead guilty to that too. I’d bet good money that when the teacher’s suit comes to trial that the courts will agree.

            We agree that results matter. The terrible results in Newport News were predictable and preventable. Even us fallible humans with a minimum of effort could have prevented the tragedy.

          3. I doubt the teacher’s suit will come to trial. The school system wants this to go away as soon as possible – they will settle.

          4. Lefty665 Avatar

            Expect you’re right, assuming that anyone in Newport News has a lick of sense. Sometimes it seems a shame that tar and feathers have fallen out of favor.

    2. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      I was looking forward to your comment, you did not disappoint.

      Thank You.

  17. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    Given the number of my posts that have been selectively censored on this post in particular is the new rule then simply “No Liberal Comments?”. Trying to read the Censor’s tea leaves here…

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