Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

Hysteria Level Rising over Coal Ash

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by

James A. Bacon
in ,

hysteria

The debate over coal ash disposal is reaching a hysterical pitch as leftist groups peddle gross inaccuracies in “education” sessions to ignorant audiences not equipped to sift fact from fiction. An example comes from a Tuesday “teach in” hosted by Divest U.Va. and the Virginia Student Environmental Coalition, which was reported uncritically by the Cavalier Daily:

“Coal ash contains chemicals that are super unsafe for humans, including arsenic, which is not a healthy thing to be putting into our water,” [first-year student Ian] Ware said. “You shouldn’t be putting arsenic and drinking water together.”

Nobody proposes putting arsenic and drinking water together. Yes, coal ash does contain trace elements of arsenic measured in parts per billion but (a) Dominion Virginia Power will reduce arsenic to levels lower than the Environmental Protection Agency has determined to be safe for humans and aquatic life at the point of discharge into the river except under extreme drought conditions, (b) Dominion’s treated wastewater will be diluted by about 3,000 times the volume of river water during periods of average flow in the James River before it reaches a drinking water intake 50 miles downstream, (c) Dominion will release treated wastewater into the river for a period of roughly a year, while standards are set at levels that presuppose that people will consume the water over a 70-year life span as their sole source of drinking water, and (d) water drawn from the river undergoes municipal water treatment before anyone drinks it.

Other than that, the statement was entirely reasonable.

— JAB

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28 responses to “Hysteria Level Rising over Coal Ash”

  1. Acbar Avatar
    Acbar

    Obviously no dinosaurs should have lived in that forest that became that coal seam millions of years ago that yielded that coal ash at Possum Point, because indeed there was a trace amount of arsenic in the environment.

    Or maybe that’s why the dinosaurs disappeared?

  2. VaConsumer Avatar
    VaConsumer

    The first sentence of this piece tells me that it is extreme. Using the words “hysterical” and “leftist” triggers emotions in the reader, especially those who consider themselves conservative.

    Are you sure the waste water will be fully diluted before it reaches anyone’s drinking water (wells or other sources)? Are the EPA guidelines adequate given what we know today or did industry push the EPA to have guidelines that impose more risk than the knowledgeable scientist would want to take? Why assume that it is safe to put any arsenic in drinking water? Given what has happened in Flint, can consumers trust that decision makers are assuring that all public drinking water is safe?

    It appears you’re stirring up the reader with the word choice used to describe what the student said and assuming that you are the only rational one. In doing so, you show your bias. Too often “both” sides of the story are told when those opposed to industry put information out, but only the industry side is told otherwise.

    1. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      VAConsumer, no serious environmentalist would dispute what I say here:

      Yes, coal ash does contain trace elements of arsenic measured in parts per billion but (a) Dominion Virginia Power will reduce arsenic to levels lower than the Environmental Protection Agency has determined to be safe for humans and aquatic life at the point of discharge into the river except under extreme drought conditions, (b) Dominion’s treated wastewater will be diluted by about 3,000 times the volume of river water during periods of average flow in the James River before it reaches a drinking water intake 50 miles downstream, (c) Dominion will release treated wastewater into the river for a period of roughly a year, while standards are set at levels that presuppose that people will consume the water over a 70-year life span as their sole source of drinking water, and (d) water drawn from the river undergoes municipal water treatment before anyone drinks it.

      The James River Association has settled with Dominion over its Bremo permit. The Association says the Bremo permit could form the basis for future coal-ash wastewater discharge permits. The fact is, these leftist, college-kid environmentalists don’t know what they’re talking about.

      1. VaConsumer Avatar
        VaConsumer

        In my humble opinion, using terms like leftist clouds the discussion and adds unnecessary emotional response – often meaning that people tune out of the discussion, anticipating they will not be heard. Maybe you want all leftists to tune out; if so, it’s a shame.

        It’s hard to ignore the fact that Dominion sponsors your work and that fact certainly colors how I read it. You’d be in a better position to make these arguments and be heard by all if you were independent. Granted, it’s hard to find independent voices these days and anyone who wants to succeed in business or government in Virginia these days seems to feel they must support Dominion. We have a horrible mess as a result.

        1. James A. Bacon Avatar
          James A. Bacon

          What if I knock “Republicans,” as I do with some regularity? Does that cloud the discussion? Do you worry about Republicans tuning out?

          I welcome all points of view. You are more than welcome to contribute an op-ed to this blog, just like anyone else. (Should you feel so moved, please check with me first to make sure the topic is appropriate.) You can use the forum to bash conservatives, if you’d like.

          1. VaConsumer Avatar
            VaConsumer

            Yep, my point was that using any extreme – and words like hysteria – all cloud the discussion because people react to them. I think we get farther with discussion when we don’t do that. Points can be made without bashing a different perspective or demonizing others. It gets personal and feelings overtake thinking – so people don’t “hear” each other – and is not helpful. There’s too much hyperbole and extremism in our discourse and it leads to things we’ve seen here today – not intelligent discussion. LarrytheG said it very well. I was trying to nudge you away from the usual downfall of discussion today – not control the conversation. Also, in my experience, one cannot assume all students are liberal or leftist. I know a lot who are very conservative, although I hate to use those labels because depending upon who’s doing it, they communicate positive or negative evaluation that may not be accurate.

          2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
            Reed Fawell 3rd

            I think Jim’s comment was quite appropriate given the grossly inaccurate statements made at the “educational hearing” and the seeming endorsement of them by Cavalier Daily by the failure to point out the other side of the inaccurate assertions.

            I do agree with VaComsumer’s general comment however, irrespective of which side employs it, although I believe the far left has institutionalized behavior to far greater degree in our more recent past.

            Unfortunately, Trump is setting records trying to catch up.

    2. TBill Avatar
      TBill

      In my reading/experience on risk communication, the correct word is “outrage” and not hysteria per se. But I don’t think the word “outrage” can be over-emphasized. That is pretty much the main goal of our entire political discourse these days in America, trying to outrage Americans about one thing or another.

      And we seem to like to be outraged. Much more fun than gray area, hedge my bets, engineering maybe-this-maybe-that we dunno qualified technical truth answer that I might tend to give you .

  3. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    re: ” as leftist groups peddle gross inaccuracies in “education” sessions to ignorant audiences not equipped to sift fact from fiction”

    good gawd.. sounds like FAUX News!!!

    yes.. Jim , these days – has fallen far from his original lean-right Conservatism.

    Now days – it’s all about “leftists” and “extremists”, govt-loving suckers and bad breath and B.O.

    the simple question to me is – if this is such a small amount of water as Bacon and others have claimed – how hard can it be to clean it up before releasing it?

    and I’ve asked before and will ask again – if this was a business seeking an EPA NPDES permit with specific limits on specific things – would these discharges meet those same specs?

    and I do think – Jim can make – really excellent points without demeaning his own commentary by using FAUX type rhetoric.

    buck up Jim – we’re all rooting for you to get back on that path to better rhetoric!

  4. Malcolm Baldwin Avatar
    Malcolm Baldwin

    As pointed out above, the use of “hysterical” and “leftist” doesn’t help rational discussion of legitimate environmental concerns based on sad experiences of disastrous coal ash accidents in the past.

    VaConsumer correctly note that the assurances provided by Domini0n’s obligations depend (a) on EPA’s accurate scientific monitoring and underlying health validity, and (b) on state and EPA monitoring and enforcement of the standards and the safety of the coal ash containment and dispersal. Flint’s experience obviously points to problems with safety assurances given to the public.

    So the burden is on Dominion to demonstrate to the public on a regular basis how it can provide the actual safe results it touts.

    For that to be credible, why not put environmentalists and university scientists on its monitoring unit? Why not recognize the endemic distrust that Americans have had with corporate environmental assurances based on past miserable experiences? Where is the imaginative exercise of corporate self interest in behalf of human health and the commons (our land and waters) when we need it?

    That’s the question that Bacon’s Rebellion should focus on, and the appropriate remedies, not slamming folks for being leftist, hysterical or ignorant. That’s your role, seems to me. When are we going to learn to cut through the fog of polarizing lenses??

    1. VaConsumer Avatar
      VaConsumer

      Well put. You said it much better than I did.

  5. TBill Avatar
    TBill

    One of my favorite topics is risk communication ( eg about chemistry and chemicals). People can easily become outraged about tiny unknown risks, if they feel no personal profit. People do not want to be forced into accepting anything against their will, no matter how small. On the other hand, give them a profit or tax break and that “buys” acceptance. Also, huge risks like driving and smoking are easily accepted due to familiarity and feeling of self-control. Both sides of the debate will use these tactics to win over public support. At the moment I’d say public/press is siding more with chemophobic hype in general.

  6. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    LarrytheG and Malcolm, there are two kinds of environmental groups in Virginia: the mainstream environmental groups who have a respect for the facts and know what they’re talking about (SELC, Sierra Club, NRDC), and radical lefty environmental groups who don’t know what they’re talking about. Unfortunately, the lefty radical groups pollute the public discourse and cloud the issues. You do NOT hear the responsible groups making the same kinds of claims. You two would have more credibility in this debate if you stuck to the talking points of the mainstream groups rather than defend the know-things on the far left.

    I’ve got two more articles coming out shortly that will answer most of your questions.

  7. Malcolm Baldwin Avatar
    Malcolm Baldwin

    Jim, I think it would be worth while for you to contact these groups about this issue and report their responses. I agree that they’re responsible, and I’m a Sierra Club member and supporter.

    But I spent my early career working, from the mid 1960s and onward, with a variety of informed and less informed environmental groups while with the Conservation Foundation and later from late Nixon to early Reagon with the White House Council on Environmental Quality, and I found that behind the least informed groups were legitimate issues not to be dismissed by the labeling you resort to. Given Dominion’s support for your efforts, I believe you should bend over backward to avoid this kind of polarization, even when you believe reason lies on your side. I am not, however convinced that all of it does.

  8. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    I think when I see the word “leftist” early on in the commentary -the “pollution” is more than just the group being pointed at.. it reflects on the commentary itself

    but hey – where in this commentary IS ” talking points of the mainstream groups”? and can they be compared and contrasted at least BEFORE you call them “leftists”?

    I suspect this is a tempest in a teapot anyhow but you could seal the deal for me if you actually compared and contrasted the positions of the groups you think are “reasonable”.

    that would put a more positive spin on it.

    I have to say I don’t like the idea that “dilution is the solution to pollution” and especially so for contaminates that are bio-persistent… you can pretty much guarantee that these things are going to end up in the flesh of critters in the food chain…

    wouldn’t be the first time but I thought EPA was getting pretty tight on release of toxics anyhow… and this sounds like there is a little game going on with respect to what the effluent is being called – i.e. coal ash… rather than the constituents themselves which if specified in a NDPES permit would probably be not allowed on a permanent basis.

    I still don’t understand if this is such a small amount of water that Dominion just doesn’t get out of this by treating it …and be done with it . It’s almost like it’s become a symbolic war of wills and the greenies are successfully egging DOminion on and the PR can’t be good.

    1. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      Check the blog around 7:10 a.m. tomorrow. You will find a deep dive into coal ash disposal issues — more authoritative than anything else published in Virginia so far. There will be more to follow a day or two after that. There will be plenty of comparing and contrasting of positions held by people who know what the hell they’re talking about.

  9. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    This conversation back and forth makes me ill. It is so typical.

    VaConsumer wants to control the conversation, to dictate the words used by Jim to express a contrary opinion. For if VaConsumer can control the words Jim uses to express his reporting of these issue, he shifts discussion to his advantage.

    Hence VaConsumer says things like Jim’s first sentence in his article “… tells me that it is extreme. Using the words “hysterical” and “leftist” triggers emotions in the reader, especially those who consider themselves conservative.”

    Here VaControl is trying to shift the grounds of the conversation from the issue of “a Tuesday “teach in” hosted by Divest U.Va. and the Virginia Student Environmental Coalition that allegedly grossly overstated facts of an issue so as to transform reasoned discussion in hysterial debate.”

    Then after VaConsumer has alleged that Jim displayed his own bias by unfairly using triggers to inflame the Emotions of “conservatives” so as to hide the use of those very same tactics used by his allies to allegedly spread a gross falsehood to promote a false claim that this ash is highly dangerous to health, Malcolm raises the Trump like claim implicit in VaComsumer’s alleged trigger tactics to strongly imply that Dominion’s being a sponsors of this blog cast doubt one Jim professionalism and his right to report the truth he finds in the matter.

    This sort of spin inflicts today’s conversation like a plague. And its often now leads ultimately to some very ugly and destructive consequences, corruption both public policy, and the behavior of leaders and followers.

    Recall the reaction on UVA Grounds on the publishing of the Rolling Stones Rape Article. Indeed the events on the grounds that lead up the writing and publishing of that false article, including the near hysteria whipped into the UVa student body by a ongoing active “Campus Rape Rampage Campaign” ramped up the previous January and February by the White House and joined in by the UVA administration. Recall how the Rolling Stones article levered up that frenzy with vivid descriptions of blonde and tanned and rich and privileged southern white kids , the girl’s snotty vapid socialites in league with powerful sexual predator Frat. boys. Recall the consequences, the political action disguised as nighttime vigils of rape victims in which many innocent kids became true believers in a total fabrication. Even today much of the truth of these ugly events remains hidden within silence and cover-up.

    Now of course it will be argued this statements is an over-reaction to the little tempest in a teapot claim of micro aggression or offensive statement by Jim which is nothing more that Jim’s effort to speak the truth to a gross overstatement of fact in promotion of a political agenda. No, it and conduct like it, such as claims of micro-aggression’s and the resultant need for safe spaces and trigger warnings, are just the latest iterations of the oldest tools of all demagogic political movements. Unfortunately these modern day witch hunts are winning the day on both ends of the political spectrum. That is plenty dangerous standing alone. When it also pollutes our science and institutions of higher learning, what they teach and promote, we are in big trouble as a society. As indeed in these modern times we surely are.

    1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      Sorry for the typos in above comment.

    2. Acbar Avatar
      Acbar

      I am struck, Reed, by the way you phrase it: “This sort of spin inflicts today’s conversation like a plague.” We rebel against its oppression, the anger it engenders. It is, in truth, the heart and soul of Donald Trump’s spectacular rise in the polls (hopefully, to be followed by a just as spectacular descent). It is how we converse, today. For good or bad, this blog cannot possibly escape its influence.

      I used to enjoy reading the mundane letters among the luminaries of the Augustan Age. Did Alexander Pope or Samuel Johnson engage in political and social debate? Most of the time! How about the letters between our own “founding fathers” — did they too use satire and parody and ridicule and invective as tools? Yes of course. But they (the better writers among them anyway) seem to have understood that personal attacks polarize, and laughter at someone else’e expense will rarely persuade the butt of the joke to think, to agree, to make common cause. And wittiness, while frequently at someone or something’s expense, is simultaneously disarming, even charming; even the target may find it amusing. In short, such writings are a pleasure to read. And so they manage to keep the conversation going — sometimes long enough, and thoughtfully enough, incidentally to persuade.

      I happen to agree with VaConsumer that Jim’s first sentence was spiked with buzzwords that characterized his forthcoming argument even before he’d made it. “Hysterical … leftist … peddle … gross … ‘education’ … ignorant”: all in the first sentence! I was trying to puzzle out why that bothered me, too, when I first read Jim’s post, before VaC said anything. Then VaC said: “In my humble opinion, using terms like leftist clouds the discussion and adds unnecessary emotional response – often meaning that people tune out of the discussion, anticipating they will not be heard.” Yes. But I also agree with TBill, “we seem to like to be outraged. Much more fun than gray area, hedge my bets, engineering maybe-this-maybe-that we dunno qualified technical truth answer that I might tend to give you.” Is Jim merely pandering to the bloggers’ desire to provoke outrage, here? To journalism’s Three Cs: conflict, criticism, controversy? Does he care whether he keeps this conversation going, or does he just want to score a point for his team and demean the opposition along the way?

      Your primary reaction, however, seems to be outrage at the Cavalier Daily’s “failure to point out the other side of the inaccurate assertions.” Which was also the thrust of Jim’s hyperbole. But Malcolm answers that criticism with his observation that inaccuracy notwithstanding, “the burden is [remains] on Dominion to demonstrate to the public on a regular basis how it can provide the actual safe results it touts.” He’s right, the utility can’t “win,” it can only try to educate, to make its case — repeatedly — and hope (usually in vain) that it gets a fair hearing, if not before the public at large, before those presumptively better-informed and wiser guardians of the public safety, the SCC and the GA.

      You see in this the dread disease of political correctness. “This sort of spin inflicts today’s conversation like a plague. And it often now leads ultimately to some very ugly and destructive consequences.” Yes. Hell yes! The liberal bias of academe is notorious. But if the shoe fits, wear it. We have also seen recently a certain hysteria on the right side of things. Spin, or the Faux News as Larry calls it, that has taken far too long to ask hard questions about what, apart from insults, has emanated from the leading Republican presidential candidate. Who so impressed the voters of Utah that, as George Will (no leftist himself) put it this morning, even “conservative Mormons flinched from his luridness. His act — ignorance slathered with a congealed gravy of arrogance — has become stale.”

      That’s the basic argument for freedom of speech, about which we surely agree, that seems to have escaped the understanding of those defenders of ‘safe places free from micro-aggression’ and the like that drives us up the wall! But Jim must also take the heat as well as give it. VaC did not seek to shut down the discourse but foster it. He merely said the obvious: a less provocative choice of words up front will further the conversation on this blog.

  10. DonR Avatar
    DonR

    I don’t care about words I care about the environment. Dominion has never been taken to task to explain the alternatives to dumping the supposedly cleaned coal ash into our rivers.

    Coal ash can be stored in several different ways – dry or wet in lined or unlined containment. Let me guess – Dominion uses unlined wet coal ash lagoons?

    Coal ash can be disposed of in different ways – used to fill in abandoned mines, recycled into either encapsulated products (e.g. bricks, bowling balls) or un-encapsulated products (e.g. wall boards), moved to remote sites and reburied or dumped into rivers after cleaning.

    Who really regulates this in Virginia? Since coal ash was not found to be a hazardous waste the regulation of its disposal falls to the states rather than the EPA. You would think that would be the Department of Environmental Quality . Up to a point that is true. However, the DEQ has routinely claimed that it lacks the authority to make Dominion use the best available technology.

    North Carolina is forcing utilities to better dispose of coal ash too. Their regulations are much more stringent than Virginia’s regulations. Of course, in North Carolina corporate (and union) donations to state legislators’ campaigns are prohibited. In criminally corrupt Virginia those same donations are unlimited. Is there any real debate as to why North Carolina has more stringent disposal regulations?

  11. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Don – I hate to tell you this but your position has been labeled as an unreasonable and extreme “leftist” position by Jim Bacon with strong support from Reed!

    And actually -upon further reading – the wet storage of ash has been abandoned by the industry and what we are looking at now are these older ponds that have to be deal with.

    The EPA is working now, at a snails pace, towards classifying such effluent as toxic with much tougher requirements for treatment and disposal. But they’re not there yet and some skeptics say that’s why Dominion has chosen to move now when they can legally dump it with less restrictions.

    But just remember the next time you are tempted to call someone a “leftist” that what goes around, comes around – in Bacon’s Rebellion!

    😉

    why some day – I fully expect Bacon himself will be called a “leftist” for his positions on settlement patterns and in-car GPS “tolling”!

    1. DonR Avatar
      DonR

      I’ve been called worse things than a “leftist”. I see polluters as entities who take away the property rights of others. I see the maintenance of property rights as a legitimate role of government. Therefore, coservation is quite conservative to me.

    2. Acbar Avatar
      Acbar

      No, the thing that will cripple Jim’s reputation for right thinking is his support for that leftist concept, “urban walkability.” My God you’d think he was related to that Communist James Rouse or something.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        well maybe but he frames his love of urban wonderfulness by claiming its essentially a private sector success story in spite of top-down govt dictates for land use and such..

        just the other days he was singing the praises of Charleston … and how it got to be what it is by the dint of private sector efforts…

        he completely ignores things like how Charleston handles sewage – something that if done the way it was done by the private sector back in the 60’s would turn your stomach. It basically was awash in the streets at times and was washed untreated into Charleston Harbor.

        Did I say that was in the 1960’s – it was!

        and how did it get fixed and one can walk the streets of Charleston these days without the stench of sewer ?

        why, glad you asked:

        http://www.tunnelingonline.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/West-Ashley-Tunnel.jpg

        that’s way over a hundred million dollars of govt and taxpayer er – make that “leftist” investment.

        so now not only can you walk those wonderful “small places” in Charleston but you won’t gag when viewing the harbor either!

  12. Acbar Avatar
    Acbar

    You know, my head doesn’t function at all at 6 in the morning, and then there’s the paper to read, and civility owed to the breakfast table, and this blog sometimes takes a while to get the juices and the barbs and the wit flowing, and I don’t write as fast or as fluently as most of you — I just don’t understand how so much gets written by so many of you before noon!

    1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      Re: necessary corrections to a recent assortment of highly suspect commentary on this blog, please note that:

      Normally I reply with alacrity to such misguided commentary, but given Ackar’s advanced age and delicate sensibilities, I don’t want to agitate his emotions until the sun has risen well over the yardarm down there in his Va. styled Land of Pleasant Living.

      1. Acbar Avatar
        Acbar

        I’ll drink to that!

  13. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    what time do you go to bed My bet is it is late – right? Then sleep in late and get up groggy. right?

    😉

    “morning folks” – which also tend to be fairly obnoxious just REVEL in the morning hours – even PRE-dawn!!!

    the world awaits as soon as the eyes open and feet hit the floor!!

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