How’d Virginia Do in “The Great Pandemic Migration?”

Glenn Youngkin was right. Yes, Virginia, we have a problem.by Chris Saxman

Most mornings start with brewing a large pot of coffee, letting the dogs out into the fenced in backyard, and waiting for the papers to be delivered. Usually I can skim through the local old soldier, the Richmond Times Dispatch, before the coffee finishes brewing. But that first magical sip of morning hits with the opening the Wall Street Journal.

Ahh….the splendor of predawn America.

I read newspapers in reverse by taking the sections and rearranging them in order to read as many articles as possible before doing battle with the editorial section. The Sports section is always first. It’s like stretching before a work out — not legally required, but strongly encouraged.

SO. Wednesday’s lead editorial headline in the WSJ print edition really grabbed my attention:

The Great Pandemic Migration

Boom.

The online version reads like this:

The Great Pandemic Migration
Census data reveal huge shifts out of the most locked-down states.

As Sheriff Buford T. Justice would say, “That’s an attention getter.”

First sentence:

The pandemic has changed America in many ways, and one major change is the migration from states that locked down their economies and schools the most to those that kept them largely open.

and then

That’s the underreported news in last week’s Census Bureau state population and domestic migration estimates from July 1, 2020 to July 1, 2021. Data used for this year’s Congressional reapportionment was based on where people claimed to live on April 1, 2020. But what a difference 15 months of lockdowns made.

(**Side note to all you Election Nerds nerdling here in Election Nerd Disneyland – the Great Pandemic Migration occurred after Census numbers were calculated for reapportionment. Have fun storming Twitter Castle later.)

The Journal editorial (linked above) goes on to make the case using the population losses of California, Illinois, and New York along with population gains of Texas and Florida. They make a credible case for their opinion throughout the editorial concluding:

Differences in policies and political values won’t recede with the virus, and it’s clear from the census data which side is winning the contest for talent and taxpayers.

Well, since Virginia just finished her annual elections and was not among the many states mentioned in the editorial, I thought it would be interesting to see how the Commonwealth fared in “The Great Pandemic Migration” according to the U.S. Census data.

Did the historic Virginia election of 2021 match up with the case being made by the Journal editorial?

Virginia saw Glenn Youngkin make the case, with massive assistance from his opponent former Governor Terry McAuliffe, that all is not well in the K-12 education system. If all is not well with Virginia’s highly regarded K-12 public school system, that would a real body blow to one of her primary economic development selling points.

It’s also been — dare I say — the political trump card of many candidates who annually campaign for more and more funding for our public schools. HUGELY popular issue in vote-rich Virginia suburbs. Bigly.

In fact, Youngkin made his case in Loudoun County — the wealthiest county in the nation — that has been trending towards the Democrats with voters seeking newer, well funded, and better (presumably) schools for their children. It’s basically school choice for the wealthy who can pack up and move to the school districts/schools of their financial choosing.

Recently, my favorite Substack writer, Matt Taibbi, took a piñata bat to the Loudoun County school system in his fantastic must-read four-part series starting with this kickoff:

Loudoun County, Virginia: A Culture War in Four Acts
A furious controversy in the richest county in America was about race, all right, but not in the way national media presented it. Part one of a series

Not familiar with Taibbi? Well, he’s no conservative that’s for sure. But he is what is sorely lacking in our democracy — an intellectually honest, curious, and fearless journalist.

That’s why I like him so much. He makes me think.

That four part series is MUST READ MATERIAL for EVERYONE in Virginia.
THAT is what journalism should be about – uncovering uncomfortable truths and making you deal with them. Kudos to Taibbi.

Now, all through the gubernatorial campaign Virginians heard two things:

A. Everything is fine. Nothing to see here. We should keep going in this direction and
B. Nope. Everything is not fine. We have serious problems and we need to address them.

It was hard for Team B to make their case publicly when stories were being published about Virginia being ranked the #1 State for Business by CNBC. It was a brutal, “Maybe… but #1 is pretty good. Are you anti-#1?”

I looked at the CNBC rankings and their methodology. Virginia does, in fact, line up well with their rankings and will continue to do so. And that does make for great marketing material for our economic development team as well as political incumbents in both parties.

But when I looked at the actual rates of economic growth and population trends, the data pointed to a potential problem — if we’re so good for business, why are people leaving? Especially young college educated people — why are they leaving? We just invested heavily in their school choices. h/t UVA’s Weldon Cooper Center.

With a data-driven gubernatorial campaign in a data-laden society, Youngkin had an opportunity to make a case for a change of direction; however, it’s a tough one to make in our political culture.

Enter the Loudoun County school scandal and Terry McAuliffe’s debate comments.

The underlying tension broke open. Kindling met match.

Youngkin won. Barely.

But was he right?

Some people are trying to say this is a one-off for Virginia Republicans. They got lucky. Great ticket. Diverse. Talented. Well funded. Bad environment. Biden’s numbers. Democrats will win Virginia back in 2025 especially if the GOP wins back the White House. Nothing to see here…. move along… all is well.

But this week’s Census Data report should leave ZERO DOUBT that, yes, Virginia we have a problem. Make that plural — we have problems.

From July 2020 to July 2021, the Census Bureau showed that — on net — Illinois lost 151,512 people. California lost 429,283 residents while New York lost 406,257.

Three different states in three different regions of the country. Big losses.

(***Another side note – who packs up and moves DURING a pandemic? I get nap exhausted just thinking about it. Who? is a very good question indeed.)

The Census Bureau breaks the country into four main regions. The Southern Region has 16 states and the District of Columbia. The South grew from July 2020 to July 2021 by 816,000 people. The Northeast lost over 365,000 and the Midwest lost almost 94,000 while the West grew by just 36,000.

See the population shift occurring?

It’s unmistakable.

People are moving by the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS to the American South.

Here’s the problem, Virginia. They’re not moving here.

Virginia is, supposedly, the best state for business with the best higher education and K-12 public school systems. YET folks are driving their moving trucks right down 81 and 95 to other states.

Reminds me of that scene in Moneyball during preseason player evaluations when the scouts rave about a batter but his statistics don’t match up to the reviews:

If he’s such a good hitter, how come he doesn’t hit so good?

How many people moved to Virginia during the Great Pandemic Migration, you ask?

About 10,000.

Wow. 10,000! That’s a lot.

Really?

Delaware grew by almost 12,000. Delaware. The Enchanted Land of Three Counties.

Actually, Delaware and South Carolina had the highest population growth rate in the South with 1.2% each.

Where did Virginia rank in the Southern 17?

Tied with Kentucky for 11th.

ELEVENTH.

Rate of growth for those two commonwealths? 0.1%. Zero point one.

Hooray, we beat Flounder.


Here are the Southern states growth rates ranked according to the U.S. Census Bureau from July 2020 to July 2021:

1. Delaware 1.2%
2. South Carolina 1.2%
3. Texas 1.1%
4. Florida 1.0%
5. North Carolina 0.9%
6. Tennessee 0.8%
7. Georgia 0.7%
8. Oklahoma 0.6%
9. Arkansas 0.5%
10. Alabama 0.3%
11. Kentucky and Virginia 0.1%
Followed by NEGATIVE growth rates of
1. Maryland – 0.1%
2. Mississippi – 0.2%
3. West Virginia -0.4%
4. Louisiana – 0.6%
5. District of Columbia – 2.9%

As the Journal rightly concluded:

Differences in policies and political values won’t recede with the virus, and it’s clear from the census data which side is winning the contest for talent and taxpayers.

Bottom line for Virginia, we are not winning the “contest for talent and taxpayers.”

Lessons from the Census Bureau?

1. All is not well.
2. Policies matter.
3. In democratic republics, the people decide.
4. People make decisions. Every. Day.
5. Glenn Youngkin was right.

Chris Saxman is executive director of Virginia FREE. This column has been republished with permission from The Intersection.


Share this article



ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)



ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)


Comments

57 responses to “How’d Virginia Do in “The Great Pandemic Migration?””

  1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    “People are moving by the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS to the American South.

    Here’s the problem, Virginia. They’re not moving here.”

    Given who they are, why they are moving, and where they are moving to, we seem to be dodging a cultural bullet here… great news!!

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      I was gonna say.. if folks are going to Texas and Florida for the politics… good lord… but thank gawd for Virginia and yes, we’ll gladly take the folks who are leaving Texas and Florida for less wacadoodle governance.

    2. VaNavVet Avatar

      We wouldn’t want the many anti-vaxxers included in this migration either. Perhaps doesn’t bode well for Texas and Florida in the future. Oh wait the future is now and Texas is asking for Federal help to fight the virus.

  2. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Welcome to Virginia. Now that you’ve seen it, leave, and take someone with you.

  3. how_it_works Avatar
    how_it_works

    Most people move to Virginia, NoVA anyway, for a job.

    Knowing what I know about NoVA, living here as long as I have, if I didn’t already live here I’d tell my employer to take the job and shove it rather than move.

    Especially if said employer weren’t going to give me a 25% pay raise to account for the increased cost of living, so I didn’t have to slum it and move to Manassas just to make ends meet.

    Manassas, you know, Manassas. Where people live 20 to a house so they can afford to work for the wages they get cleaning toilets for the rich folks up in Loudoun.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      Had occasion to visit Charlotte in early Dec. I thought NoVa was a car-centric hell-hole. Au Contraire!

      Even though Charlotte is a true non-Federal govt workforce and economy, it sucks big time on traffic in my view.

      If you thought getting around on Nova non-interstates surface streets was bad, I invite you to try to drive around Charlotte at rush hour – interstate or surface streets…

      1. how_it_works Avatar
        how_it_works

        Charlotte probably suffers from the same lack of planning and connected streets that NoVA does.

        EDIT: Yep, it looks on a map like someone threw cooked spaghetti on a map and built roads where it stuck.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          basically too many cars driven solo at rush hour and we were “lucky” to be there when there was a wreck on I-77 and the very same thing happens to Charlotte as happens to NoVa…

          I don’t think this is unique to NoVa at all… We’ve been to most of the urban cities in the US and I can tell you almost all of them suck at rush hour.

          And of course, that’s also where the jobs are.

          Everyone wants to drive solo – at rush hour… we are the enemy…

          1. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            On Dec 27 I95 between DC and Fredericksburg was a parking lot at 2pm.

            I took the liberty of zooming out on Google maps and I looked at the entire USA east of the Mississippi.

            The only other backup on the entire Interstate system even approaching the length of that one was also on I95, in Georgia.

            Georgia. Virginia. What do they have in common? “A Uniquely Southern Approach to Infrastructure” would be my guess….

            Seriously, you have some problems when not only your URBAN instates are horribly backed up, but so are your RURAL interstates.

          2. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            On Dec 27 I95 between DC and Fredericksburg was a parking lot at 2pm.

            I took the liberty of zooming out on Google maps and I looked at the entire USA east of the Mississippi.

            The only other backup on the entire Interstate system even approaching the length of that one was also on I95, in Georgia.

            Georgia. Virginia. What do they have in common? “A Uniquely Southern Approach to Infrastructure” aka “make the Feds pay for it all because we don’t want to spend a dime of state money on it” would be my guess….

            Seriously, you have some problems when not only your URBAN interstates are horribly backed up, but so are your RURAL interstates….and especially so when the backups are happening on WEEKENDS.

            And what is the alternative route to I95? US1, or some crappy 2-lane country roads with bad pavement and no shoulders in Stafford and Fauquier counties.

            At least one of these substandard[1] roads has a ditch right next to the pavement with what looks like a 2 foot drop off. Probably been that way since the Byrd administration got it paved.

            [1]by national standards. By Virginia standards, they are perfectly acceptable. Hell, they’re even paved!

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I-95 between DC and Richmond is routinely backed up and so is I-64 between Richmond and Tidewater.

            But it’s NOT “rural” drivers that are doing it! 😉

            Have you every been to the Northeast or Chicago or Houston or LA?

            When the interstates – urban and rural were originally built – people did not drive as much as they do now. That changed.

            Also if you look at the amount of available right-of-way for I-95 in the rural areas, it’s like 600 or even 1000 feet. Each travel lane is 12 feet. Do the math.

            The problem is that in urban areas and some commuting suburban areas, they have used up ALL of that r/w and there is no more left without tearing down businesses and other development.

            That would be the problem with ANY new lanes, and that would be in addition to the costs of tearing down and rebuilding every single bridge, overpass and interchange.

            The solution?

            Congestion tolling, where the cost of the toll varies by the degree of congestion.

            it works and is effective because not every trip needs to be made during high traffic periods.

            put a price on it and let people choose between money and time just like we do with airline tickets and other things.

            i’ve had an EZ-Pass for a decade or longer and I use it when I can and glad to do it. AND I time my driving to NOT drive during high congestion hours if I can. I will go around urban centers at rush hour or I”ll wait , stop at a restaurant for a bit. Consult GOOGLE maps, etc….

            There are just too many of us driving way too much solo – whenever we feel like it for the roads we have – in MOST urban areas as well as most suburban commuting areas and at holiday periods.

            We can build more lane rural but they ought to be tolled also and in the urban areas – congestion tolling…

          4. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Best line ever from a college campus tour (at W&M) – “DC is a 2 to 12 hour drive from campus…”. Not wrong…

          5. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            They’ve been talking about a bypass on I95 of the DC area since at least when Wilder was gov.

            But that’s one thing I’ve noticed about Virginia..they are very, very good at at talking here.

            Not so much at getting things done, though.

            Unless it involves slapping up another subdivision or strip mall.

          6. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            That is what happens with divided government in a pendulum state… alas…

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Naw. VDOT LIKES to build roads, they’ve built a bunch but people don’t like to pay gas taxes or tolls so VDOT can only build what they have money for.

            Gas taxes and tolls would likely have to double to build everything people say they want. When you ask if they are willing to pay tolls for new roads – they run like hell!

          8. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Loudoun has taken on funding some road projects locally (one could argue they should as their land use policies created a great deal of the mess to begin with). They have done really good things with a large stretch of Rte 7. It flows pretty good now… at least until you hit Fairfax County. This was done under a series of BOS controlled at different times by both parties, btw.

          9. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Prince William has done the same thing. They funded both the 234 bypass and the Prince William Parkway.

          10. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            The new way that VDOT funds new or existing roads is called Smart Scale. It requires modelling to prove the new road “works” and does not screw up other roads AND if approved, it gets built quicker if the locality throws in more local money.

          11. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            All I point out here is that this problem is everywhere, across Va and across the US. it’s not just a Va or Loudoun problem.

            VDOT pretty much calls the shots on all roads that are Va and Federal signed. The locality can ask that it be prioritized by adding their own money also but VDOT decides the when,where,how, etc.

          12. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            In many other states, the state DOT is not responsible for subdivision streets.

            It would be VERY unpopular, but if it were up to me, a road would only be eligible for VDOT maintenance if it connected to other VDOT maintained roads at both ends.

          13. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Only 4 states have the DOT in charge of subdivision roads and VDOT has a rule about 2 entrances as well as intraparcel connections to limit curb cuts but localities intercede to do what the homeowners want which is cul-de-sacced subdivisions that do not connect to others.

          14. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Then fine, the localities can pay for the maintenance of the road if they want to allow a subdivision with no connections to others. Or the HOA can do it.

          15. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            They don’t mind doing that as long as it still connects to VDOT roads! THAT’S the problem! VDOT needs the GA to make it a law.

          16. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Here’s how VDOT funds roads these days. You may be surprised at just how many projects there are – way, way more than there is funding for.

            https://www.smartscale.org/about/default.asp

          17. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            They haven’t raised gas taxes in Virginia since 1985 (prior to the gas tax increase of a year ago, the benefits of which I have not yet seen,…)

            Probably at some point the cost of the vehicle damage from the crappy roads exceeds the expense of the gas taxes required to keep them in good repair.

          18. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            I think the Dems just raised it (and also tied it to inflation). Youngkin and the Republicans have specifically pledged to repeal it, I believe.

          19. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Well, yes, it is a regressive tax (as are tolls). As you are aware, I do not believe that roads should be funded by so-called use-based fees or taxes. We all benefit from the roads and (rich or poor) we should all have equal access to them and everyone should pay for them fairly (not based on personal car usage).

            But HIW is correct, if we are using a gas tax to fund roads, at least raise it to keep up with inflation otherwise all our roads will continue to crumble.

          20. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            tolls are easily means-tested and based and actually being done:

            https://www.vdottollrelief.com/

            Everyone has equal access to the roads but just like with airlines and other supply/demand issues, price needs to be part of the equation.

            if we did not use price for airlines, and other things like shipping), they would have the very same problem as roads – too much demand for available infrastructure – at certain times and the choice is have the congestion or build more roads that are empty at non-rush hour.

            This is why I support higher priced tickets for air fare at busy times, higher priced shipping for faster shipping and tolls on roads that vary by price according to demand with means-tested toll relief.

            That’s way better than trying to raise the gas tax IMHO.

            Price the roads according to demand.

          21. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            “Everyone has equal access to the roads but just like with airlines and other supply/demand issues, price needs to be part of the equation.”

            If price is part of the equation then not everyone has equal access. Airlines are not public but private – roads are public infrastructure and should be paid for as such.

            Your approach is antithetical to the concept of public use infrastructure and will eventually lead to two roadway and transportation systems – one for the haves and one for the have nots. We already have issues with just that phenomenon now and it has real impact on real peoples lives. We should not be intentionally making it worse.

          22. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Nope. “Equal access’ means everyone has equal choices – like with DMV or other services. The fact that services are delivered by private or public does NOT entitle one to “all you can eat for one price anytime you want” especially when it means the roads are chock-a-block and EVERYONE is penalized EQUALLY.

            Did you read how VDOT does Toll Relief for low-income?

            Road capacity is a scarce good really no different than other scarce goods/services that are price adjusted to mitigate demand. it does not matter who provides the service – public or private, it works the same way.
            If you want to send a package “express”, you can, and it’s equal access… no one is prevented from making that choice. You decide what level of service you want and are not prevented from making those choices. You’re not entitled to express service for basic service just because you are poor.

            It’s basic supply and demand, the way most economies fundamentally work. You pay for what you use. If you are poor, there are subsidies but they too need to decide how much they want and for how much. They don’t get milk for a lower price and their EBT benefits do not allow them to buy as much as they want.The”poor” thing is a canard IMHO that distracts from the basic supply/demand issue. The poor are always affected by price and are allocated a share but not entitled to all they want for one low price.

          23. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            “Equal access” is what we have with our PUBLIC school system. All can opt to pay for PRIVATE school but if you don’t have the money, you don’t have the access. Clearly, if your ability to access a road is based on your ability to pay to access that road, you do not have equal access.

            Kudos to VDOT for their very limited attempt to rectify the problem but it would be much simpler to fund roads completely from the general fund from the get go.

          24. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Have you heard of “fees’ for certain things at public schools?

            As shown earlier, VDOT provides subsidized EZPass for low income, problem solved. Even then, they don’t provide unlimited subsidies.

            Tolls are how you keep roads free-flowing. Otherwise every yahoo and his brother will come down an access ramp to a clearly chock-a-block highway and everyone sits there – rich and poor – same access.. put a toll on it, and chock-a-block goes away and the poor get help on the toll. It works.

            I support keeping the roads free flowing by letting all of us choose when we want to use the road. We do that already. Many folks won’t use the roads when they are not moving.
            We basically are out of money and out of available right-of-way on many roads.
            You can’t expand “access”. So you allocate capacity on a supply/demand basis the same way most
            supply/demand works in the economy.

          25. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            If you read that VDOT program, it is hardly solving any problems. The concept is legit but they restrict access to the program based on residence and require work on the part of the recipient to demonstrate eligibility (in terms of income, use, and residency requirements) each and every year. Hardly an efficient program – especially if the idea is to roll it out across the Commonwealth. Much better to fund the roads equitably to begin with.

            “put a toll on it, and chock-a-block goes away.”

            Yes, because you have restricted access only to the well-off for PUBLIC infrastructure that was supposed to be equal access. That is why “it works”. Might as well have a PRIVATE highway system at that point – the effect is the same (see Dulles Greenway for example).

          26. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I would want and expect restrictions on toll relief and I suspect others
            also. The real point is that not for anyone is it an “all you can eat anytime you want”
            thing. Again, it’s not about just charging just for the sake of profit – it’s using price as
            a way to manage congestion – and it applies to everyone and it works – it can take a grid-locked road
            and enable it to be free-flowing – saving the time penalty that affects everyone rich and poor.

            I can’t convince you, but it’s going to happen because there is simply not enough road capacity and
            no real way to provide it in a fiscally acceptable way.

            Congestion tolling has become a standard for many, if not most of the countries urban beltways and interstates…

            Way, way more than some folks realize:

            https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/policyinformation/tollpage/t1part3.cfm

          27. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            “it’s using price as a way to manage congestion – and it applies to everyone and it works – it can take a grid-locked road and enable it to be free-flowing – saving the time penalty that affects everyone rich and poor.”

            Again, and I get we differ in opinion here, the only reason that particular road becomes less grid-locked is because those who can’t afford the toll are shoved into the adjacent secondary roads resulting in an exacerbated traffic situation there. The impact to the not well-to-do has been compounded. So for the rich, they get traffic relief literally on the back of the poor… the very definition of inequity.

          28. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Well no. People make decisions based upon the need of the trip and what time and many congestion toll roads also have non-toll lanes and allow HoV on the toll lanes so there are choices. And those “poor’ can choose the non-toll lanes… just like before or they can choose a non-toll route.

            And we subsidize the low-income but they don’t get unlimited.

            It’s really not about the ‘poor’, that’s a canard from the folks who don’t like the tolling concept – IMHO.

            And again, it’s not about charging people just to be charging them, it’s using tolls to “shape’ congestion levels so the roads are kept free-flowing instead of grid-locked.

            It’s here right now and more of them are planned..and it’s pretty simple, there are fewer and fewer
            opportunities in urban areas to really reduce network congestion. You might reduce congestion on
            one segment but all that does is speed that clot to the next bottleneck.

            Across the country – congestion tolls are being implemented.

          29. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            “… it’s using tolls to “shape’ congestion levels so the roads are kept free-flowing instead of grid-locked.”

            You act like tolls just magically make the cars go away. They don’t they divert the extra traffic of those who can’t afford them onto the already grid-locked “low income” roads and the “well-to-do” roads are the only ones “kept free-flowing instead of grid-locked”.

          30. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I won’t convince you, I know that but you’re really swimming upstream
            The days of driving anytime you wish anywhere you wish without congestion
            are largely gone and the DOTs including VDOT are no longer adding free capacity.

            I’ve heard about folks going on local streets but as someone who has done it himself, I
            know it’s a tough slog – VDOT is putting in medians you can’t cross, no left turns, one ways, and traffic
            calming.

            New congestion toll lanes are not built from tax dollars but tolls and they often sit right beside the
            original free lanes that are still free and carpoolers can use the toll lanes for free – perfect for
            some low income folks and others willing to give a little to get a little.

            You’re swimming upstream guy. Look around you. How many lanes are tolled now
            in NoVa?

          31. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            it takes about 10 years these days for a decision to fund to go to dirt and that’s with a ready-to-build design, needed right of way, what utilities to move, etc.

            Look around you and visualize that you would have done and ask yourself what the cost might be and knowing it will take ten years, and will it really solve congestion or just make a bottleneck less onerous.

            I assume you are from NoVa. Go look at this: https://nvta.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Smart-Scale-2019-Flyer.pdf

            and this:
            http://www.ctb.virginia.gov/resources/2019/2019-syip-spring/novaprojectslist11x17rev.pdf

            This is what your regional government has chosen and VDOT is to approve with the funding that is available unless more is provided.

            you want more, you’re going to need more money , higher taxes and/or tolls.

            This is the reality.

          32. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Either way, people are vehemently opposed, and the politicians heed them.

            Neither the Va GA nor Congress has agreed to higher gas taxes, but they will let a dot use tolls for new roads.

          33. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I suspect it’s because there’s no guarantee that the additional funding supplied by higher gas taxes will actually be used to build and improve roads.

          34. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Naw… every penny gets spent on transportation, new/improved roads. There are 10 years worth of projects that do not have funding.

            And roads in urban areas, cost like the devil. One mile of road in a rural area can cost 200-300K. In an urban area, that road costs 10-100 million per mile.

          35. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
            energyNOW_Fan

            Um well, Virginia started increasing road taxes in 2012 with McDonnell’s transport package. McDonnell, ahead of his time, realized gaso tax was unjust socially (for rural repubs) so they substituted with extra sales tax on NoVA, as well as indexing gaso tax for increasing gaso prices, but gaso price went down, reversing the repub attempt at passsive increases the gaso tax. Upon the blue wave, the Va Dems took more direct aim at gaso taxes., despite the social injustice of that approach. Apparently social injustice only matters in some cases.

          36. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Just let me know when they finally raise gas taxes to a level that lets them afford to hire some guy to trim the trees and brush away from the street signs….

          37. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
            energyNOW_Fan

            Tell me about it, I gather data each day on my bike rides, but the issue is prob more gov’t effectiveness

          38. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
            energyNOW_Fan

            Tell me about it, I gather data each day on my bike rides, but the issue is prob more gov’t effectiveness

          39. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Being a cantankerous old bastard who won’t compromise and would cut your nose off to spite your face is a part of Virginia culture. Think Hatfield-McCoy applied to politics.

          40. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Yep. So you ARE advocating that the govt take people’s property for new roads even if they don’t want to sell?

            The reason for a ‘bypass” is to go around NoVa hellhole?

          41. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Have I ever said that I have a problem with the use of eminent domain to build roads?

            Another Larry strawman right here.

          42. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            No… it was just a question… trying to ascertain what you really want/support. do you support higher gas taxes and tolls to pay for new roads ?

            Just FYI – way back in the 1960’s when the interstates were conceived and designed, no one realized how much more people would drive – to/from work and longer trips.

            https://wolfstreet.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/US-auto-averages-total-miles-driven-2019.png

          43. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I have no problem with toll roads assuming that (1) the tolls are reasonable and (2) it’s a new road.

            Not $30 tolls added to an existing road.

            If the great corrupt state of Illinois could figure out how to build a network of toll roads that cost 15 cents a mile, why can’t Virginia?

            Well, I mean, other than the fact that Illinois did this decades ago, while Virginia was still having it’s little spat with “Massive Resistance”.

          44. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            congestion tolls are not predicated on “reasonable” but the state of the congestion. They are implemented not to raise money but to manage congestion with the money itself used to add lanes, ramps, etc. But toll itself varies by congestion levels. It works just like airline fares do.

          45. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            And most toll roads in the USA are NOT using them. I wonder why…

          46. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            more and more – in urbanized locations –

            https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/congestionpricing/resources/examples_us.htm

            People are vehemently opposed, but they do work and more and more are being built especially new bridges and new “connectors”.

            People drive solo during the most congested times of day for the most inane reasons. They need a price to help them decide .

          47. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            congestion tolls are not predicated on “reasonable” but the state of the congestion. They are implemented not to raise money but to manage congestion with the money itself used to add lanes, ramps, etc. But toll itself varies by congestion levels. It works just like airline fares do.

          48. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Maybe the fact that the next crossing of the Rappahannock west of I95 is some 15 miles away has a bit to do with the problem.

            Additionally, local traffic uses the interstate to go a few miles because the local roads are insufficient.

            As far as right-of-way, in a rural area there is little to no development next to the highway so increasing the right-of-way (even without widening the road, just reserving it for future use) is far more easily done than 10-15 years down the road when it will cost a lot more because buildings have to be torn down.

Leave a Reply