To Larry Gross:

You often make observations or ask questions that raise important issues so I try to respond to them when I have the opportunity. (See Postscript) In the comments following “Freight Rail: The Robust Transport Mode” you commented:

“I have to admit that what I get out of EMR’s logic seems to be that we should not be buying light bulbs from China but instead (from) a local industry…

and that world trade of goods is inherently wasteful and the correct answer is to produce goods locally [NB: “local” and thus “locally” is a Core Confusing Word – produce goods (and services) Regionally] instead of importing them from afar…

If so.. it’s a pretty provocative concept and like Peter … I’d be bamfoozled…. so.. either I don’t understand or EMR’s ideas about land-use extend to commerce/trade/economics, etc.”

Larry, I am sorry to bamfoozle you! Here is a simple answer:

If all the location-variable costs were fairly allocated and citizens were really serious about maintaining (?recreating? / ?really creating for the first time?) a democracy with a market economy, then it would be less expensive and serve the overarching goal of a sustainable trajectory for contemporary civilization to buy the light bulbs made in the Region, rather than the ones made in China.

There is a relatively simple reason for this:

Trade vs Import Replacement.

In a nutshell Trade benefits those at the top of the economic food chain while Import Replacement benefits everyone in the “place” where commerce is focused. At this point we call this “place” a “Region.”

Benefiting the majority of those in any Region is a prerequisite for commerce in creating and sustaining a democracy with a market economy.

Since most economists are supported directly or indirectly by the denizens and agents of Trade, you have to dig a bit to understand the importance of this distinction.

A good place to start is Jane Jacobs’ book The Economy of Cities (1969 ). Since the book was not written by a card-carrying economist it is not often cited. (Planners do not often cite her Life and Death of Great American Cities either :>)

As we point out in The Shape of the Future Chapter 19 Box 2 – “Evolution of the Marketplace” – Jacobs’ book establishes a framework for considering Trade vs Import Replacement. (As we also point out in Chapter 3 Box 3, our only problem with her book is the use of “cities” in the title. Think how much more useful her book had been if it were titled “The Economy of Regions.”)

What one calls a “place” is very important. Over the past 8,000 years the “place” that has benefited from Trade has morphed from:

The compound of the chief / trader in a trading Village; to

The favored sector of the earliest “cities” (Ur, Choga Mami, Tell Brak, Hama, et. al.); to

The well-to-do quarter of the capital of the trading empire; to

The Zentrum of the most successful trading city-state; to

The financial districts in the urban agglomerations of the nation states with the large economies and / or control of scarce resources.

A pattern of Trade and Import Replacement can be seen in:

The earliest Neolithic Trading Villages

Pre Classical (Bronze Age) Mediterranean commerce Ugarit, Ulu Burum, Kommos, et. al.

Classical commerce of Greeks, Phoenicians and Romans

Mediaeval commerce between 400 and 1400

Colonial commerce between 1400 and 1950

Nation-state commerce between 1750 and 2000

Global and multi-national trading bloc commerce between 1960 and present

Over this period Trade primarily benefited those who controlled Trade.

However, in these same time frames the citizens who benefited the most were those who live and work in and / or were served by “places” that worked to focus economic activity on Import Replacement.

We will not bore you with the details but I am convinced that the same pattern could be found in the emerging cultures in Mesoamerica, the Pacific Coast of South America, Africa and elsewhere (including the “Mound Builders” of the Mississippi / Missouri River Valley and the Southeast) if their cultures had not been wiped out by guns, germs and steel. Hat tip to Jared Diamond. (I too went to Jared’s.)

Urban economic activity starts with Trade but must transition to Import Replacement to be sustainable. That is especially true as humans begin to push the limits of the exploitable resources (the price of oil continues up) and the reality that finite resources can be exhausted becomes apparent. See Jim Bacon’s post on “The End of Cheap Gasoline” of 19 November 2007.
The US of A fought a Revolutionary War and a Civil War over aspects of Trade vs Income Replacement. The causes of the two World Wars and the Cold War can be traced to resource allocation and control of commerce.

As the World becomes more “Flat” and civilization becomes more urban, the importance of the “place” and location grows and so does the pattern of human settlement.

The fundamental building block of contemporary civilization is the New Urban Region. The New Urban Region and the urban agglomerations in Urban Support Regions must move to transition from Trade to Income Replacement.

Cost of communication and information transfer and storage are going down and the real cost of Mobility and Access – if all the location-variable costs are fairly allocated – is going up at an accelerating rate.

In this context, Democracy and a market economy depend on Income Replacement.

This is why it is so important to understand the roles of the four Estates – The Agency Estate, the Enterprise Estate, The Institution Estate and the Citizen / Household Estate. This is the topic of our most recent Backgrounder which is being presented in four PARTs in the last two and next two columns.

POSTSCRIPT

We has originally intended to post this material as a comment on the “Freight Rail: The Robust Transportation Mode” of 10 December. The comment by EMR to which Larry Gross responded to was in that string.

However, upon further review…

EMR’s original comment was prompted by the facts that:

We believe that it is wildly premature to write off interRegional Passenger Rail for reasons stated in our previously comments in the original string.

We believe it is unwise to promote the views of a denizen of the Enterprise Estate as the view that should guide the Agency, Institution and Citizen / Household Estates. What is good for General Motors is not necessarily good for the US of A and that goes for Norfolk Southern as well for reasons we have noted in our response to Peter Galuszka. We hope Peter has the time to read these comments with care.

As happened with the comments that followed the “End of Cheap Gasoline” post the comments moved from a discussion of transportation alternatives to speculation about settlement pattern alternatives. Many of these comments are driven by three Myths we will be exploring in a future column.

For all these reasons (and the fact if buried at the end of 60 plus comments Larry would not see an answer) it seemed best to start over with an answer to Larry.

By the way Larry, I will get to your TAZ questions in due course. We will admit to being a bit put off by your asking if we had ever heard of TAZs :>) We just addressed the NUR / USR question.

EMR


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Comments

43 responses to “HEY LARRY!”

  1. E M Risse Avatar

    OOPS

    Ijust noticed that in my haste to get this posted I replaced “Import” Repalcement with “Income” Replacement in at least one place. Sorry.

    Perhaps Jim Bacon can fix that, correct other errors and he always does and put an nice picture of an interRegional passenger train at the top, perhaps like the Empire Builder? or the number 18, you get what I mean…

    EMR

  2. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I’m speechless!

    🙂

    I’m pretty ignorant – I admit it and lazy too.. or else I’d probably know whether or not you were familiar with the TAZ concept…

    but I did have good intentions in that the TAZ concept tries hard to recognize the connection between aggregating parcel land-uses to determine traffic generation and if aggregated TAZs .. COULD be NURs or components of NURs then the conventional wisdom of how many trips per day would be generated would be lower if the NUR “captured” quite a few of those trips – much like the claim of some multi-use compact developments – at least in theory.

    also.. I have to re-read your thoughts several times to finally “get” your points some times.. so bear with me…while I re-read…

    🙂

  3. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I have trouble with Diamonds thesis because he makes assertions/conclusions without laying a groundwork that is peer-referenced.

    He’s basically concocted a theory out of whole cloth in my view.

    be that as it may – tis true that trade was motivated by a desire to procure things that were not available in the local regional economy – correct?

    spices and citrus products were not available in some areas unless obtained from other areas.

    Today, the shrimp you eat do not come from the Chesapeake Bay nor the Gulf of Mexico but from Chile and Thailand.

    How would the Cleveland NUR produce shrimp regionally?

    Where would Lima, Peru get replacement treads for Catepillar tractors if not from the USofA?

    You’ve categorized support regions separate from NURs.

    How does that play into the idea of regions producing their own stuff verses getting it from outside of that region?

  4. Not Ed Risse Avatar
    Not Ed Risse

    There is no limit from a human perspective to the resources available in the universe.

    My grandchildren will be mining the moon for energy and resources, while Risse’s great grandchildren will be crying about spoiling the night view from their telescopes.

    Google: moon mining energy

    Here is just a sample from

    http://www.energybulletin.net/192.html

    “The moon’s surface is full of the energy source helium-3, said Gerald Kulcinski, a nuclear engineering professor and director of the Fusion Technology Institute at UW.

    “If we could land the space shuttle on the moon, fill the cargo with canisters of helium-3 mined from the surface and bring the shuttle back to Earth, that cargo would supply the entire electrical power needs of the United States for an entire year,” he said.”

  5. Jim Bacon Avatar

    Not Ed Risse, You are right — energy is, for all intents, limitless. After fossil fuels, there’s uranium and fission. After uranium there’s helium-3 and fusion… and then there’s solar for as long as the human species exists…

    The problem comes with the economic cost of exploiting that energy, and the cost of replacing and upgrading the massive infrastructure built around old energy sources. As we transition from fossil fuels to something else (renewables, nuclear, whatever), we are entering an era of more expensive energy.

    While market solutions are the preferred solution for dealing with energy scarcity — higher prices encourage conservation, exploration and the search for substitutes — some of our societal institutions do not respond to market incentives. Unfortunately, our current, politically organized system for funding and planning transportation is one such institution.

    I personally think that market-based solutions work better than politics-based solutions, and I have systematically tried to explore such solutions on this blog. But as long as government is involved in funding transportation, and as long as government has a decisive say over human settlement patterns, we have to think about how government can do its job more intelligently.

  6. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    homework for today:

    as you drive, observe the median strip that we pay good money to cut with polluting lawn-mowers no less and also observe the massive powerline right of ways and ask yourself what if those places had wind turbines and solar panels instead… instead of more power plants and more powerline rights-of-way.

    short answer – the generated power would be more “expensive” than coal-powered plants and nukes.

    cheap power .. is indeed the bane of our existence in some respects.

  7. Anonymous Avatar

    “as you drive, observe the median strip that we pay good money to cut with polluting lawn-mowers no less “

    We could mow the median strips with goats and goatherds. Got any idea what THAT would cost? Then of course there would be the runoff.

    RH

  8. Anonymous Avatar

    “ask yourself what if those places had wind turbines and solar panels instead… “

    And then ask yourself what that would cost.

    RH

  9. Anonymous Avatar

    I think the medians and sides should be planted with heavy intertwining growth, like roses and raspberries. They would make an excellent energy absorbing barrier, and they would not have to be mowed.

    RH

  10. Anonymous Avatar

    There is no doubt that the changing costs of energy and transportation will change the costs of trade, and make local manufacturing and planting more profitable.

    Oops, sorry, we can’t have those short term profits, can we?

    But that is going to mean that local land uses will have to be more flexible and not less flexible. “The pattern” of human settlement needs to change and evolve to allow it to try to achieve balance. That balance will never happen, because the economics will change again.

    We will eventually have a museum to the “science” of planning.

    RH

  11. Anonymous Avatar

    Dear EMR:

    I realize that you already noted a typo that need’s correcting, but I am still incredibly puzzled by this post. Are we talking about Trade v. Import Replacement or Income Replacement?

    As for “New Urban Regions” are they the old 50-year-old SMSA concept dressed up in new clothes with a new name?

    Obviously what is good for GM is not necessarily good for the U.S. but you are putting words in my mouth and concepts in my head that shouldn’t be there.

    What struck me about Moorman’s remark, which came after he deflected a number of questions about it, was that he’s right — in a strict political sense, there isn’t the will to fund billions of public money in interregional rail. The freight roads aren’t going to do it priovately. That’s all. You may want such a service as I do, but if so, please explain to me how this can come about financially. And no, don’t refer me to a “Matrix” that makes no sense and simply dodges ther hard issues.

    Also, when I discuss trade, all I am doing is talking about the market reality. Pushed by burgeoning global trade, Virginia has seen a massive increase in port construction along with an explosion of warehouse operations for Big Box stores such as Wal-Mart, Target, etc. This has a lot more to do with Virginia’s Mid-Atlantic geopgraphy than some “matrix.” Hampton Roads has been competing hot and heavy with Savannah and to a lesser extent Charleston for this trade.
    I don’t want any more big boxes than you do, but you should at least respect a little of what I am saying and understand that I am simply stating realities, not advocating some neo-Babbitry.

    Yous hould also understand that you have some problems:

    (1) You simply cannot express your thoughts clearly. Somene should edit your comments before you release them on this blog. I don’t mean to be insulting, I am being honest.

    (2) You have a patronizing attitude that we all must adopt your vocabulary and your paradigms. Hell I am in my mid-50s and have worked all my life as a journalist and analyst (no apologies for it since I don’t buy your MSM matrix stuff) and I don’t need to be talked down to. Neither do the others on this blog.

    Thanks

    Peter Galuszka

  12. E M Risse Avatar

    At 9:38 PM Larry said:

    “I have trouble with Diamonds thesis because he makes assertions / conclusions without laying a groundwork that is peer-referenced.”

    I did not have that problem with either of Jared Diamond’s major works.

    Perhaps that is because his observations match my own from travel and living in the Carribean, the Pacific, Latin America and Europe. I have not spent time in New Guinea or other places he cites but his observations are not in conflict with accounts by others whose work I respect.

    Of course, the lack of peer-referenced material could be said – and was said – about the work of Copernicus, Vesalius, Smith, Hess – and Jane Jacobs.

    One of the topics we plan to explore after TRILO-G is competed is the need for Science to move beyond “peer review. Out on the frontier there are no peers to be found. This is in part due to the fact that the research that is funded is the research for which there is a immediate economic or institutional pay off.

    I do want to clear up one thing: Shifting from Trade to Import Replacement does not mean “NO IMPORTS.”

    Take a walk down the isle of Wal*Mart, Target or of William’s Sonoma, Bloomingdale’s or Rankin’s Hardware and check the place of manufacture.

    The vast majority of these products could be made in the Baltimore-Washington New Urban Region and would be if the location-variable costs were fairly allocated, especially with the further caveat that we include in the main post.

    In fact some are made in the Region and could be sold for less now but are not for a range subsidy, regulatory and trade monopoly reasons.

    Some of the best fruits and vegetables that you can get at Whole Foods or eat in table cloth restaurants and are out of season in this Region come from greenhouses – some heated with waste heat – in the Washington-Baltimore NURs and in the DelMarVa USR.

    In fact some come from a good friends greenhouse in the Shenandoah.

    Having lived in the tropics I can tell you that no tropical fruit that will stand up to being picked green, taken on a long flight and long truck rides and then remote warehoused can stand up to one that you pick off the tree where ever the tree happens to be grown.

    Citizens have to think about achieving Balance and the long term trajectory of current actions, not what makes some the most money in the shortest period of time for a few at the top of the economic food chain.

    EMR

  13. Anonymous Avatar

    And don’t forget that we are shipping a lot of Appalalachian coal OUT of the states through Virgina ports. Some of it is even going to Newcastle, of all places.

    This is courtesy of the falling dollar and high efficiency scrubbers on European coal burning facilities.

    I’m not sure the concept of paying full locational costs makes a lot of sense in the international market: we will never agree on what they are or who would enforce such an idea.

    “Out on the frontier there are no peers to be found.”

    Oh, please.

    It is interesting that no-one seems to want big boxes, but more than 95% of the population shops in them. I agree with Peter that we would do better to deal in Reality than Tril-O-G.

    RH

    RH

  14. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I don’t mind Diamond pontificating .. he’s entitled as others are..but just because what he says seems plausible does not make it factual – much less a valid basis for concept and theory.

    He speculates a lot and then builds his theories on top of his speculations.

    He, in fact, makes truly wild assertions – like Zebras cannot be domesticated but camels can… no background no supporting evidence not even others that agree with his line of thinking.. just his line of thinking… arbitrary and subjective.

    I don’t consider one’s views – no matter how plausible, as “science”.

    I don’t think everything needs to be rigorously peer-reviewed but a willingness to have one’s ideas thoroughly tested by others indicates a willingness to deal with realities.

    aka – are you in your own little world or are you in the same world with others…

    and so I ask hard questions about Balanced Communities – not to be ugly – but to understand – acknowledging that we probably have screwed up settlement patterns but also not wanting to lurch into another paradigm lacking in consistency.

    So, I do ask.. where food and other goods that people want and need come from if they are simply not available within the confines of a balanced community.

    and if Balanced Communities is basically what settlement patterns consisted of back in time prior to the age of trade… so that the “balance” was, in effect, forced because there were no products available via trade because trade did not exist – ipso facto..

    I would submit that we no longer live in that kind of world… and the question is not whether we should define Balance as “no trade”- but DO, in fact, say what it is and what it is not.

    Lay out the definition.

    Do NURs that don’t make their own light bulbs – don’t have light bulbs?

    Do NURs that don’t exit in Florida not have orange juice?

    If true.. we need to do some major revisiting of the concept I think because to be perfectly honest.. this is gonna be a hard, hard ‘sell”.

    🙂

  15. E M Risse Avatar

    At 11:49 AM PG said:

    “Dear EMR:

    “I realize that you already noted a typo that need’s correcting, but I am still incredibly puzzled by this post. Are we talking about Trade v. Import Replacement or Income Replacement?”

    Jim Bacons has not yet corrected our errors and I do not know how to do it without losing the comments.

    Upon further review, it turns out the last three (out of nine) references to “import replacement” in the original post were incorrect.

    Thank you for letting me know this confused you. So far as I know, you were the only one that did not understand our note.

    “As for “New Urban Regions” are they the old 50-year-old SMSA concept dressed up in new clothes with a new name?”

    The concept of “New Urban Regions,” Urban Support Regions and the organic components of human settlement pattern (The New Urban Region Conceptual Framework) is central to our work. New Urban Region is defined in GLOSSARY for which there is a link on every post. That should clear up any questions you have.

    “Obviously what is good for GM is not necessarily good for the U.S. but you are putting words in my mouth and concepts in my head that shouldn’t be there.”

    We agree, the concept that what is good for GM or NS is good for the US of A should not be in anyone’s head.

    “What struck me about Moorman’s remark, which came after he deflected a number of questions about it, was that he’s right — in a strict political sense, there isn’t the will to fund billions of public money in interregional rail.”

    At this point that observation is correct, there is not the political will to intelligently address interRegional passenger rail. Further, if the political will was there to build “something,” much of the money would be wasted as Jim Bacon likes to point out.

    Mr. Moorman’s remark is consistent with the position of a New York Central Division Superintendent with whom I was negotiating in 1966 and with what I have heard from railroad managers ever since – including during the discussions that led to the establishment of VRE. If I had chosen to represent the interests of a freight railroad, that is what I would say too. Moorman’s view which you seconded is the position that represents the interest of the a rail corporation (Enterprise Estate) but is not in the best interest of citizens or society.

    “The freight roads aren’t going to do it priovately (sic). That’s all.”

    Unfortunately that is not “all” your column and its headline conveyed.

    “You may want such a service as I do, but if so, please explain to me how this can come about financially.”

    The first step is to fairly allocate location-variable costs. Beyond that, there are many options but since you find our comments hard to understand I will not bore you with them.

    “And no, don’t refer me to a “Matrix” that makes no sense and simply dodges ther (sic) hard issues.”

    We are sorry that you find it hard to understand the value of The Estates Matrix. As we note in PART I, we expect that many trained in journalism will initially dismiss the whole idea of the abandonment of the Fourth Estate by MainStream Media.

    “Also, when I discuss trade, all I am doing is talking about the market reality. Pushed by burgeoning global trade, Virginia has seen a massive increase in port construction along with an explosion of warehouse operations for Big Box stores such as Wal-Mart, Target, etc. This has a lot more to do with Virginia’s Mid-Atlantic geopgraphy (sic) than some “matrix.” Hampton Roads has been competing hot and heavy with Savannah and to a lesser extent Charleston for this trade.”

    Perhaps we could agree that what you describe is “the current market reality base on wildly subsidized and unsustainable trade relationships”?

    “I don’t want any more big boxes than you do, but you should at least respect a little of what I am saying and understand that I am simply stating realities, not advocating some neo-Babbitry.”

    And here is where The Estates Matrix, a fair allocation of location-variable costs and other perspectives we explore come into play. Our original point was that your column does not provide information which will help citizens understand the need for Fundamental Change in human settlement patterns and Fundamental Change in governance structure – the sort of Fundamental Change that Jim Bacon noted in his earlier comment in this string.

    “Yous hould (sic) also understand that you have some problems:

    “(1) You simply cannot express your thoughts clearly. Somene (sic) should edit your comments before you release them on this blog. I don’t mean to be insulting, I am being honest.”

    I appreciate the honest expression of your view. You can be assured we will not ask you to edit our work.

    We apparently share the same disability since I (and others who have read the “Forget Passenger Rail” column) believe you said what you still say you were not saying.

    “(2) You have a patronizing attitude…”

    Some call it “patronizing and condescending” but in the end we are frequently right on human settlement pattern issues, especially at the Region-scale. See “Down Memory Lane with Katrina.” In that case it took 30 years.

    We also understand – as we were warned when “The Shape of the Future” was published – that it may be 50 years after we are dead before “they” understand what we were saying. The only problem is that by that time there may not be the resources (including the capital) to do anything about it.

    At one point I opened a lecture on historic preservation with a New Yorker cartoon showing an adult dinosaur telling a young dinosaur: “We know we have problems and we are working on them.” Working on things like how to provide interRegional passenger movement.

    “… that we all must adopt your vocabulary and your paradigms.”

    We are sorry that our perspectives upsets you. You are free to believe and adopt what you think is in your best interest.

    We believe that using a confusing Vocabulary to discuss issues related to human settlement pattern compounds the task of evolving functional patterns and densities of land use.

    We also believe that failure to establish comprehensive Conceptual Frameworks prevents citizens from coming to considered public judgements of issues critical to establishing a sustainable society.

    As luck would have it we live in a nation-state where citizens can differ.

    “Hell I am in my mid-50s and have worked all my life as a journalist and analyst (no apologies for it since I don’t buy your MSM matrix stuff) and I don’t need to be talked down to. Neither do the others on this blog.”

    Some do and some do not. As noted above, we do not expect many trained in Journalism to immediately embrace The Estates Matrix. As you may have guessed, we are not planning to run for public office.

    To avoid further heartburn perhaps you should refrain from reading our material.

    I will try to avoid commenting on your material that I find to be incorrect or misleading.

    EMR

  16. Anonymous Avatar

    Okay Risse,
    I will also try to avoid commenting on your material. I expect the same courtesy.

    Peter Galuszka

  17. E M Risse Avatar

    Larry:

    First on Jared Diamond:

    “I don’t mind Diamond pontificating ..

    ………..

    “He speculates a lot and then builds his theories on top of his speculations.

    “He, in fact, makes truly wild assertions – like Zebras cannot be domesticated but camels can… no background no supporting evidence not even others that agree with his line of thinking.. just his line of thinking… arbitrary and subjective.”

    Larry, have you every seen or heard of a domesticated Zebra herd?

    I have not and I have heard from zoologists that they cannot be domesticated just as there are some strains of “wild” horses that are hard to domesticate. Jane Jacobs has a great section on how domesticated animals evolved.

    Any way, I would not make a big deal about the Zebra assertion even without attribution.

    How does a statement about Zebras relate to the primary trust of “Guns, Germs and Steel” or to “Collapse”?

    As I recall his earlier books were all well documented and well respected. As I recall in his big two, he cites the various views e.g. the Inca, et. al. and on Easter Island, Greenland and elsewhere and notes why he disagrees with those who hold differing view. He opens “Collapse” with a Chapter on western Montana and I have been there, done that. He is right on in spite of a self-serving denials that I have read.

    It is clear that there are few others who are out there where he is on the overarching views, that is why they are so important. It is also why it would be hard to get a lot of others to agree with him.
    Is there some fundamental issue you disagree with him on or is it just his attitude?

    ……………..

    “I don’t consider one’s views – no matter how plausible, as “science”.

    “I don’t think everything needs to be rigorously peer-reviewed but a willingness to have one’s ideas thoroughly tested by others indicates a willingness to deal with realities.”

    I agree completely. That is why we developed the Five Natural Laws. Anyone who wants can run the numbers a test them. Every one of our strategies has been “field tested” like the Cordon Line Concept we cited in the comments on TAZs. Been there done that.

    …………….

    “and so I ask hard questions about Balanced Communities – not to be ugly – but to understand – acknowledging that we probably have screwed up settlement patterns but also not wanting to lurch into another paradigm lacking in consistency.”

    Sometimes I think you are so busy thinking up hard questions that you do not read carefully what you are about to question.

    “So, I do ask.. where food and other goods that people want and need come from if they are simply not available within the confines of a [B] balanced [C] community.”

    First, let me confess that I forgot to include one paragraph in my last response to you:

    New Urban Regions are not just compact, functional “Balanced Communities.” From 70 to 90 % of every New Urban Region is Countryside. There are Balanced But Disaggregated Communities in the Countryside outside the Clear Edge around the Core but there is still lots of room for conservation, recreation and nonurban land uses like food production. (We are also advocates of Urban Agriculture but that is a different issue that Jac Smit has covered well in his book of the title.)

    Recall that at minimum densities about 4% of the land in the Commonwealth is needed for all the urban activities of the citizens.

    Now re my last response: I noted there must be some interRegional trade, that is not a bad thing. Some of it will be food. But I also said that we could do a lot more to provide off season food close to those who will eat it than we do now.

    “and if Balanced Communities is basically what settlement patterns consisted of back in time prior to the age of trade…”

    This puts a strange spin on our position. There have been human settlements that approach Balance in every era for the last 8,000 years and as technology and society changes so did what Balance meant. I argue with the end of cheap energy we will soon have to come up with a new Balance that does not rely on Large Private Vehicles for Mobility and Access.

    “… so that the “balance” was, in effect, forced because there were no products available via trade because trade did not exist – ipso facto..”

    Wrong idea – before “trade” there were no “communities,” no trading Villages, only the seeds of urban settlement patterns at the Unit and Dooryard scale. There were bands and tribes and camps. The whole thesis of Jane Jacobs book is that trade led to agriculture and to urbanization.

    “I would submit that we no longer live in that kind of world… and the question is not whether we should define Balance as “no trade”- but DO, in fact, say what it is and what it is not.”

    Larry, I think you are over-working the issue. See the above comment re Balance being a product of the era – what ever the era: Neolithic, Bronze, Classic, Mediaeval, Colonial, nation-state, Global trade as I recall off the top of my head. Each had its own Balance.

    “Lay out the definition.”

    “Do NURs that don’t make their own light bulbs – don’t have light bulbs?”

    You know the answer to that.

    “Do NURs that don’t exit in Florida not have orange juice?”

    You know the answer to that. See above re food and raising crops out of season and out of climate zone.

    “If true.. we need to do some major revisiting of the concept I think because to be perfectly honest.. this is gonna be a hard, hard ‘sell”.”

    It sure would be if that had anything to do with what we describe.

    EMR

  18. Anonymous Avatar

    “the “balance” was, in effect, forced because there were no products available via trade because trade did not exist – ipso facto..

    I would submit that we no longer live in that kind of world”

    I’d say that was pretty accurate.

    Now what do we do?

    RH

  19. Anonymous Avatar

    It is nice to know that the concepts you invented are central to your work.

    Now tell us how fairly allocating locaton variable costs will fund passeneger rail.

    While you are at it, tell us how to fairly allocate location variable costs. And how we will know it is fair.

    RH

  20. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I guess it would be nice to know more about what the criteria is and is not for “imported” goods for a NUR to be “correct” because.. even if the idea is that some/most goods should be produced regionally – there are some that cannot be.. and by the very definition of locational variable costs you’re admitting that NURs are not viable without “some” subsidized locational variable costs – i.e. trade.

    so .. you’re essentially saying that “trade” is equivalent to subsidized locational variable costs and IS necessary for the viability of settlement patterns but that “too much” (another one of those totally subjective concepts) actually undermines the essential goal of NURs.

    hmmmm… sounds like all those ports and trade are … “too much of a good thing” ??? NO?

    🙂

  21. Jim Bacon Avatar

    Larry, let me take a stab at answering your question how fairly allocating location-variable costs would help fund passenger rail. First, I would adjust your statement as follows: Fairly allocating costs could would make passenger rail *more competitive* with air and roads, not help fund it. (Whether a fair allocation will make rail competitive enough to gain profitable market share against air and roads is a matter upon which I am agnostic.)

    I can’t speak with any authority about the system of air travel, but it’s my understanding that airports, a critical piece of air-travel infrastructure, are subsidized to a significant degree. As discussed in other comments on this blog, roads and highways are increasingly subsidized — in Virginia by means of proffers, impact fees, General Fund revenues and a host of fees, fines and miscellaneous taxes (like hotel taxes).

    All transport modes are so heavily subsidized that we can’t possibly know which one is the most efficient. That’s why I think it’s critical to eliminate all subsidies to the best of our ability. Otherwise, the economics are so opaque that the politicians end up calling all the shots based on considerations that have nothing to do with economics.

    The other key area we need to consider is externalities. I don’t know what the numbers are — I don’t know if anyone does — but each form of transport contributes to pollution. I would hazard that inter-city passenger rail generates less pollution per passenger. That differential should be reflected in the price of a ticket.

    It is clear to me that inter-city passenger rail suffers from significant disadvantages. Whether correcting those disadvantages would be sufficient to induce people to shift travel modes is a question we can never answer until we try it, preferably on a pilot project scale.

  22. Anonymous Avatar

    “All transport modes are so heavily subsidized that we can’t possibly know which one is the most efficient. “

    I don’t think whether it is subsidized or not has anything to do with a particular mode’s efficiency.

    But it raises a good point, and one that I have argued frequently: we don’t have a well understood way to develop and agree upon values – like efficiency.

    Even so, I think we are backsliding into the old argument of one mode over another, when transportation efficiency probably depends on the system of all modes working together.

    We might even be making a mistake to assume that it is a good idea to induce people to shift travel modes away from road use: what if it turns out that it really is most efficient, taking pollution and the best use of other modes into account as a total systems analysis?

    Intercity rail would no doubt generate less pollution per passenger – if there are enough passengers. Urban rail can post some fantastic maximum possible statistics, because they depend on cramming the cars full of standees. The actual stats are a lot different. But reducing pollution by itself is not enough reason to fund intercity rail, over some other project. There are just too many variables, and each of them must have a price affixed before you can figure out a system wide efficiency. One of those is the “price” of standing vs sitting, for example.

    Winston and Shirley took a cut at this, evaluating actual use, value, and externalities, and their conclusion was that transit is only suitable for around 2% of total transportation needs. That is an unpopular conclusion in today’s environment, but being unpopular doesn’t mean they are wrong. As EMR said, there are no peers out at the leading edge.

    Rural roads comprise almost 78% of the national highway system and Urban roads only 22%, but as a percent of miles traveled rural (of all types, including highways) roads account for only 40% of travel while urban roads account for 60% of travel.

    As long as you put 60% of travel on 22% of the road system, you are going to have a problem unless travel itself is drastically reduced. But if Winston and Shirley are correct, it is only economical to reduce urban raod use by around 2 to 5% (depending on how much subsidy you can stand).

    That doesn’t make the prospect of fixing congestion problems look very appealing, and tranist does not reduce congestion: it just offers more capacity on top of the congestion we have and will continue to have. We already know that the disefficiency of congestion has a price of $1089 per year, per commuter.

    “Beyond busy activity centers, local roads are often characterized by low traffic volumes and, as such, account for a minority of all travel. In 2001, urban and rural local roads together carried only 12.8 percent of all vehicle miles traveled. These roads are critical because they provide the most direct access to homes, businesses, and institutions. Local roads and streets enable travelers to make the first and last part of every trip; they also support postal and parcel deliveries, emergency services by police, fire, and ambulance services, trash collection, and a wide range of similar services. Local streets also are the rights-of-way for telephone and electric power lines and pipes that provide gas, water, and sewer services to homes and businesses. (Wachs).

    Therefore, even though we do not pay for as much of road use through various user fees as we used to, there may be a good and valid basis to consider that a “User Pays” only strategy is not efficient, or equitable.

    Wachs breaks down road funding in a graphic which shows that 58.9% of road funding comes from various direct user fees. But there is another 15.3% that comes from bond issues and income from investments on funds not yet spent. We can assume tht 58.9% of that either comes from or is paid for by funds from the user fees, so what we actually have is almost 68% of highway costs paid by user fees. And on top of that, the users pay for their own vehicles, maintenance and drivers, which transit doesn’t.

    Only 10.4% comes from property taxes and other fees. So, I think that a fair assessment of what road users pay is a lot more than the 50% usually reported (by those opposed to road us, or in favor of more transit). In fact, Wachs points out that autos actually pay 1.5 times what they cost, while heavy trucks and busses pay as little as 40% of their costs.

    Now, EMR says that at minimum densities about 4% of the land in the Commonwealth is needed for all the urban activities of the citizens. How much land is needed for all the rural activites of the commonwealths citizens? Even if it is 10 times as much as what we need for urban uses, there is still a lot of land left over.

    So why is it that we cannot curb congestion and reduce pollution by shifting more of our traffic to the 77% of roads that are little used?

    28 states have raised
    their gas taxes since 1992, only three raised them enough to keep pace with inflation, and in real terms, the average gas tax rate declined by about 14 percent in one decade. it is no wonder we can’t build or maintain what we need. on average the 50 states would have to raise the gas tax by 11 cents per gallon, just to recoup their 1957 buying power.

    The number one recommendation of Wachs is to eliminate the disparities win what various vehicls cost and what they pay. That would have a major impact if it included transit.

    The number two recomendation is “While continuing to rely on motor fuel taxes as the principal source of user financing, states should explore and plan for widespread deployment of electronic
    toll collection systems.”

    And the last one is the use of HOT lanes and tme based pricing to marginally improve efficiency.

    His conclusion follows:

    “It is reasonable, however, to hold as an ideal the development of a system of user fees that produces adequate revenue to build and manage the transportation system while simultaneously promoting efficiency and equity. There will always be a need to balance these goals against the political process that, after all, epitomizes the art of the possible.”

    So, we have the means to fix our problems, all we need is the political will.

    RH

  23. E M Risse Avatar

    Larry:

    You keep asking questions and requesting more details about issues we have addressed in prior posts or in referenced writing but do not answer questions that we raise.

    What is your real problem with Diamond, it cannot just be Zebra reproduction.

    Here is a question that probes the isse of fair allocation of costs (Groveton wants to discuss all costs so this is not directly location-variable):

    What would you pay for a string of Holiday lights that you were sure would not cause you, your children, your grand children or your pets to die of lead poisioning?

    You may have noticed the Prop 56 (I think it is 56) notice that falls out of Holiday decorations with lights made in China. There is also the message stamped on the box: “Suitable for sheltered outdoor use only.” Does that mean do not use them indoors? Vendors have no idea but they are being sold for indoor use.

    So how much more is it worth to have safe lights?

    Enough to pay fair wage to have them made in Owings Mills?

    Now if every Community had (as we have advocated) a labratory open to the public to test the contents of food and other products, citizens could inform themselves and decide if they wanted to by cheap imported goods…

    The key to democracy and a market economy is informed citizens.

    EMR

  24. E M Risse Avatar

    Jim Bacon’s 8:53 AM post is right on vis a vis the real issues related to the allocation of location-variable costs and interRegional passenger rail.

    This is, however, another place where using the term “city” confuses the discussion.

    EMR

  25. E M Risse Avatar

    A reference to our original post reminded me that I had not properly cited the references to Jane Jacobs’ books.

    In Chapter 3 Box 3 we reference both “The Economy of Cities” and “Cities and the Wealth of Nations.”

    We checked the later and found that while published in 1984, we bought our copy in 1995 in Toronto.

    That was when we were in the middle of articulating The New Urban Region Conceptual Framework.

    Jacobs’ “Cities and the Wealth of Nations” book refers to City Regions and to Supply Regions and questions the role of nation-states that were relied on by Adam Smith as the focus of economic activity.

    There are marginal notes that suggest this was one source for our concept for Urban Support Regions.

    Those who hope they can avoid serious consideration of our work by suggesting it is fabricated from hole cloth need to read the 146 books in APPENDIX THREE – Readings and the over 200 cited in the End Notes and Boxes.

    TRILO-G will include another 50 or so, most published since 2000.

    EMR

  26. Anonymous Avatar

    JRR Tolkien no doubt had a lot of sources for Lord of the Ring.

  27. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “What is your real problem with Diamond, it cannot just be Zebra reproduction.”

    My problem with Diamond is that if something is stated as a fact and is later used as a component of a theory – that it needs referential evidence to demonstrate that it is indeed a fact and not an assertion.

    i.e. FOOTNOTES

    any assertive work without footnotes is conjecture…no matter how fervent the writer is in his beliefs…because at the end of the day.. without footnotes, he’s telling you what he believes –

    I do not find such reading as useful in developing a better understanding of REALITY but rather trending more towards the fanciful… which is fine for fiction but not for non-fiction.

    “Here is a question that probes the isse of fair allocation of costs (Groveton wants to discuss all costs so this is not directly location-variable):

    What would you pay for a string of Holiday lights that you were sure would not cause you, your children, your grand children or your pets to die of lead poisioning?”

    You may have noticed the Prop 56 (I think it is 56) notice that falls out of Holiday decorations with lights made in China. There is also the message stamped on the box: “Suitable for sheltered outdoor use only.” Does that mean do not use them indoors? Vendors have no idea but they are being sold for indoor use.

    So how much more is it worth to have safe lights?

    Enough to pay fair wage to have them made in Owings Mills?”

    EMR – BUZZZZZZZ !!! wrong answer.

    Your logic is: “if we build it here, it WILL be SAFE”

    really?

    come on guy.. you can do better than that…

  28. Anonymous Avatar

    This discussion seesm to be getting more rambling and off-point — perhaps the result of having a lot of capable people with land use backgrounds discussing international economics which really isn’t their field of expertise.

    A few points:

    (1) Pricing, labor supply and other variable costs are naturally going to force the manufacture of low end consumer products offshore. It started happening many years ago and no one can stop the tide.

    (2) Production of some high end goods will stay in this country — especially auto manufacture because it is cheaper to make them here (and meet U.S.-sourced parts requirements in trade pacts).

    (3) The U.S. still exports some very low end products and always will. The biggest single commodity moving from Hampton Roads isn’t coal it is scrap paper.

    (4) The U.S. started becoming a service economy years ago and now that is starting to change as financial services, IT services and even some medical services move offshore thanks to ultra-high speed digital communications. Yes, that low-paid doctor in India can read your X-Ray just as well as an Amerian doctor, although I understand that the Indians have trouble with American English and often misspell and misfile because they don’t understand American-sounding last names and streetnames. A lost file is as good as no file especially when you’re sick..

    (5) The U.S. is enjoying some export benefits now because the dollar is so cheap yet it is likely that the U.S. will keep importing lots of cheap, foreign made products over the long term.

    (6) The bloom is off the China rose. After years of the U.S. media boosting China, the trend has swung back with reports of poorly made, unsafe goods. The NY Times has a fascinating story today about how China’s aquafarming of shrimp, tilapia, etc. is highly polluted. I remember seeing shrimp farms when I visited Thailand a dozen years ago and I did wonder about cleanliness. Personally I prefer shrimp from the good ole U.S. Southeast but much of the product is stressed by OUR polluted waters, overfishing and high prices.

    (7) What bothers me is that too much of this discussion is being undertaken with the rose-tinted classes of land use planners who certainly have something to say, but are ignoring a great deal of the big picture. Rather than read some obscure urban planner, why not take a second look at Ricardo or Marx? Are there any economists or business people with real foreign experience out there in blogland?

    Peter Galuszka

  29. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    good comments that I pretty much agree with except the part about land use… 🙂

    The question/issue is – is the way that labor and trade have evolved a contributor to dysfunctional settlement patterns?

    The NUR/Balanced Community conundrum seems to me to essentially claim that a community IS .. more “balanced” the less it has to cross it’s boundary for goods, services, jobs and housing.

    So… it’s “better” to have milk produced in the Region than trucked in from out of the region – a locational variable cost…

    Blue Cheese salad dressing… better made inside the region than at a very large facility that distributes to the entire southeast…

    etc, etc.

    Basically.. if the idea is that global trade is the motivating force behind dysfunctional settlement patterns..

    or perhaps I’ve got this screwed up and that is not what was asserted…

  30. E M Risse Avatar

    Larry:

    Earlier you commented on FOOTNOTES:

    “any assertive work without footnotes is conjecture…no matter how fervent the writer is in his beliefs…because at the end of the day.. without footnotes, he’s telling you what he believes”

    I agree with you completely, I think. Do “FOOTNOTES” include “End Notes?” For those of us who do our own word processing, End Notes are far easier to use.

    I would have liked either footnotes or end notes in both of Jared Diamonds’s books. I know why he did not use them. His agent and publisher told him not to use them because it scares away “popular” readership where all the money is to be made in publishing.

    Diamond does however, have extensive and well documented “Further Readings” sections in both GGS (28 pages) and Collapse (31 pages) which, based on the markings in my copies of the books, I referred to often when I had a question about a source. If I saw that he did not quote someone I knew to be well respected in a field that was a red flag. I found a couple.

    However, as I pointed out earlier, he tends to deal directly with contrary views in the text.

    Now back to my question: What is it you do not like about his view of Zebra domestication and reproduction?

    You cannot get away with always just asking questions or talking about footnotes, what about the substance?

    In the same post you quoted us:

    “Enough to pay fair wage to have them made in Owings Mills?”

    And then put in:

    “EMR – BUZZZZZZZ !!! wrong answer.”

    Excuse me, I was asking a question. I did not submit an answer, and surely not a “wrong answer.”

    You then said:

    “Your logic (sic) is: “if we build it here, it WILL be SAFE”

    really?”

    Well yes, really. Do you not believe that you in Spotsylvania County could be far more safe in trusting the quality of a product from Owings Mills – especially with the public access laboratories we advocate – than a product from China?

    “come on guy.. you can do better than that…”

    I am not sure I can, if folks do not read what I say with some care.

    Recall that I am talking about a context where Fundamental Change has addressed not just locational cost imbalance but other current shortcomings of Business-As-Usual as well.

    Please go back are read what we said and let me know your thoughts.

    At 5:10 PM today,

    Larry Gross said…

    “good comments that I pretty much agree with except the part about land use… :-)”

    On that you are right on.

    Since PG has in less than two days completely reneged on his promise, I plan to address his snide remarks but you put your finger on it!

    The issue is human settlement patterns and it is Regions and Balance.

    Keep up the good work…

    EMR

  31. Anonymous Avatar

    While we are waiting for Utopia….

  32. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “Fundamental Change has addressed not just locational cost imbalance but other current shortcomings of Business-As-Usual as well.”

    I think the burden is on you to respond directly to BLOG questions rather than suggesting “further reading”.

    You have to “sell” your concept to us skeptics… telling us to “go read more carefully” won’t convince us of your positions but rather… for some .. will consider such responses as … non-responsive at best and evasive at worst.

    the BLOG is YOUR OPPORTUNITY to respond to questions.. to help the questioner gain a laser bright-line understanding of the parts of your concepts that ARE that way … AND disclosure of the areas that you are still investigating and don’t have a laser/bright line response to.

    sometimes.. simple things… like a clear explanation of the criteria for deciding what locational variable costs are.. then enumerate them.. and rank them by some basis as to what percentage of contribution they each have.

    We cannot “create” balanced communities and NURs from undeveloped land.

    We would have to backfit it onto existing.. and so we need to know .. for instance, of the list of locational variable contributions which are the biggest and smallest and which are fertile ground for change and which won’t be changed without tearing stuff down and starting over…

    So that’s why I ask questions about .. greenfield mixed-use compact development (smart growth?) IN THE CONTEXT of whether it is or is not a proper path to NUR/balance.

    If I am to stand up at a BOS hearing and oppose a greenfield “smart growth” proposal.. I have 3 minutes.. and telling the BOS to go develop a vocabulary and do some reading on the issue is going to get me laughed at all the way back to my seat.

    In order for me to speak.. I need to have a clear, concise and compelling rationale that is CONVINCING….

    without that… we’re going to see dozens/hundreds of such proposals – routinely approved and perceived as “smart growth” – when, in fact, it appears that they are not .. if we judge them by what they actually accomplish verses verses the “smart growth” flag with nothing behind it.

    I hope that I have not offended.. there was/is no intent to do that.

  33. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: Diamond.. footnotes/endnotes/further reading etc, et al.

    It’s the functional purpose of the footnotes.. not whether they are ‘foot’ or ‘end’ or ‘further reading’.

    Are they cites for evidence to support the assertion or are they just more assertions?

    His Zebra domestication is plausible but horses, especially ones that have NEVER been domesticated exhibit similar behaviors.

    I want to see .. other experts on domestication weigh in …

    and the idea that you want to appeal to readership that is .. AFRAID of footnotes and further evidence … in an indictment of the real purpose of the books in my mind.

    What he has is his version of how the world evolved .. as opposed to a contribution to the body of work on the subject and acceptable from his peers ..on the general validity of his work.

    He attempts with his own personal broad brush…to say, in effect, “all those other guys that have written on this…” haven’t quite got it right… and here’s how things REALLY work.

    yes.. I can see how some folks find tremendous comfort in believing that by reading one book.. that they finally understand how all of this fits together… 500 pages of how the world works…. read this one book and save yourself a lot of time plowing through hundreds of other works on the subject.

    🙂

    oh.. did I say that I tend to be a skeptic at heart? 🙂

  34. Anonymous Avatar

    EMR,
    My promise was no personalized, ad hominem attacks any more on EMR. I have not reneged, just adding to the comments more. I named no names.

    Peter Galuszka

  35. E M Risse Avatar

    At 10:29 AM, Larry Gross said…

    “I think the burden is on you to respond directly to BLOG questions rather than suggesting “further reading”.

    “You have to “sell” your concept to us skeptics… telling us to “go read more carefully” won’t convince us of your positions but rather… for some .. will consider such responses as … non-responsive at best and evasive at worst.

    “The BLOG is YOUR OPPORTUNITY to respond to questions.. to help the questioner gain a laser bright-line understanding of the parts of your concepts that ARE that way … AND disclosure of the areas that you are still investigating and don’t have a laser/bright line response to.”

    Your position here is clear and very well put but it fundamentally misstates / misunderstands my role and responsibility – much less my capacity within this lifetime. I appreciate your spelling out your view because it will change the way I participate in this Blog.

    I will address this issue further in a note I will post at the end of this string.

    “sometimes.. simple things… like a clear explanation of the criteria for deciding what locational variable costs are.. then enumerate them.. and rank them by some basis as to what percentage of contribution they each have.”

    On this you are absolutely right. However, given the current gulf between Myth and reality in the evolution of human settlement patterns, no one person can do that. Each of us has to accept our role. The Z Team tries to do some of this but it will take much more than that as we note in PROPERTY DYNAMICS.

    As I have said before, there is no way for me to go back over the thousands of lectures, articles, columns, etc. and put together a response to each question. As you know, many of the questions, many posted by Anons, are asked just to waste our time.

    The importance of your point is made clear by the example that you cite below but no one person, especially in the Blog format can make a dent in this need. As I will point out in the ending note, almost all of the positive feedback I get is from private communications. It is the agents of Business As Usual who toss the brick-bats and “when will you stop beating your mother?” questions.

    “we cannot “create” balanced communities and NURs from undeveloped land.”

    That is absolutely right and will be the topic of a column upon which we are working.

    “we would have to backfit [ “back fill,” “refill,” “renew,” “revitalize” … there are a dozen words for what you suggest] it onto existing.. and so we need to know .. for instance, of the list of locational variable contributions which are the biggest and smallest and which are fertile ground for change and which won’t be changed without tearing stuff down and starting over…

    “so that’s why I ask questions about .. greenfield mixed-use compact development (smart growth?) IN THE CONTEXT of whether it is or is not a proper path to NUR/balance.

    “If I am to stand up at a BOS hearing and oppose a greenfield “smart growth” proposal.. I have 3 minutes.. and telling the BOS to go develop a vocabulary and do some reading on the issue is going to get me laughed at all the way back to my seat.

    “In order for me to speak.. I need to have a clear, concise and compelling rationale that is CONVINCING….

    “without that… we’re going to see dozens/hundreds of such proposals – routinely approved and perceived as “smart growth” – when, in fact, it appears that they are not .. if we judge them by what they actually accomplish verses verses the “smart growth” flag with nothing behind it.”

    Again you are absolutely right! That is why the third Book of TRILO-G includes PROPERTY DYNAMICS. One “Larry” that understands is not going to make much difference.

    “I hope that I have not offended.. there was/is no intent to do that.”

    You have not offended and have clarified our thinking about what we can and need to do in this context.

    At 10:40 AM, Larry Gross said…

    “re: Diamond.. footnotes/endnotes/further reading etc, et al.

    “and the idea that you want to appeal to readership that is .. AFRAID of footnotes and further evidence … in an indictment of the real purpose of the books in my mind.”

    Tell me about it. Most of the agents, publishers and “successful” writers I talked to about “The Shape of Future” said: Cut it in half, drop the footnotes, do not say anything bad about any one, put in a lot of pictures and give it a feel good ending. Oh yes, do not use any words that are beyond Dick and Jane’s vocabulary.

    Keep up the good work…

    EMR

  36. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    YEAH.. as I recall.. I was the one asking for “pictures”.. so I be hoisted on my own petard…

    🙂

    you and team need to figure out how to “educate” us heathens without “dumbing” it down to the point where ya’ll have to hold your own noses..

    🙂

  37. E M Risse Avatar

    Larry:

    At 4:12 you said:

    “YEAH.. as I recall.. I was the one asking for “pictures”.. so I be hoisted on my own petard…”

    No, no, no. You asked about pictures re PowerPoints, etc and you were right on. You recall my answer was it was a great idea, I just do not have time to do that right now.

    The above reference to pictures was about books. More than one author has submitted a manuscript and then come to SYNERGY/Planning to get pictures to meet the publishers criteria.

    You also said:

    “you and team need to figure out how to “educate” us heathens without “dumbing” it down to the point where ya’ll have to hold your own noses..”

    No, no, no again. We have to establish a process so that citizens see it is in their best interest to educate themselves.

    You are right on re the creation of Balanced Communites from existing fabric and not outside the Clear Edge.

    I will try to write that column with more than usual clarity : > )

    EMR

    Keep up the good work…

    🙂

  38. E M Risse Avatar

    Response to Anonymous / Peter Galuszka aka, Gooze Views / hereinafter “PG”

    There is no way to be sure if someone who posts as “Anonymous” is really the person whose name appears in the text.

    Because I have known PG for a number of years, I was surprised as well as offended by a post of 11:29 AM 13 December with the name “Peter Galuszka” in the text.

    PG did not disclaimed this post and so at 6:40 PM EMR responded. EMR ended the response post as follows:

    “To avoid further heartburn perhaps you should refrain from reading our material.

    “I will try to avoid commenting on your material that I find to be incorrect or misleading.”

    …………

    At 6:50 PM on 13 December,

    Anonymous (signed PG) said…

    “Okay Risse,

    “I will also try to avoid commenting on your material. I expect the same courtesy.

    “Peter Galuszka

    …………..

    This “Okay” did not specifically agree to what was offered. However, had EMR offered the refrain for commenting on Peter Galuszka (PG) materials so when a post quoting PG related to Prince William County appeared, EMR extended “the courtesy” and did not point out short-comings in that item.

    EMR was very surprised by the 2:01 PM, 15 December comment (again by Anon / PG) which is reviewed below.

    EMR, in a separate post, had stated his intent to address this second negative attack and before this item was posted noted the following:

    ……………

    At 11:47 AM on 16 December, Anonymous (signed PG) said…

    “EMR,

    “My promise was no personalized, ad hominem attacks any more on EMR. I have not reneged, just adding to the comments more. I named no names.”

    Peter Galuszka

    …………

    After reading this series of comments and the following review, we will leave it to others to judge if this is an example of why some trained in journalism give the transfer of information and the depiction of reality a bad name.

    ……………

    At 2:01 PM on 15 December in the comments section of a post by EMR and in the same string that PG had agreed “to avoid commenting on your material” the following appeared: (Responses are in ALL CAPS.)

    “Anonymous said…

    “This discussion seesm (sic) to be getting more rambling and off-point — perhaps the result of having a lot of capable people with land use backgrounds discussing international economics which really isn’t their field of expertise.”

    SO FAR AS WE CAN RECALL ONLY ONE PERSON WHO HAS POSTED ON THIS STRING HAS A “BACKGROUND” IN “LAND USE” BEYOND BEING A CITIZEN WHO MUST DEAL WITH DYSFUNCTIONAL SETTLEMENT PATTERNS.

    THE ENTIRE POST AND COMMENT STRING IS ABOUT THE HUMAN SETTLEMENT PATTERN IMPACT OF “interRegional Trade” AND THE NEED FOR MOVING TOWARD “Import Replacement” TO SUPPORT DEMOCRACIES WITH MARKET ECONOMIES AND TO ACHIEVE A SUSTAINABLE TRAJECTORY FOR CIVILIZATION.

    “A few points:

    “(1) Pricing, labor supply and other variable costs are naturally going to force the manufacture of low end consumer products offshore. It started happening many years ago and no one can stop the tide.”

    “NATURALLY?”

    THERE HAVE BEEN AT LEAST HALF A DOZEN ERAS THAT EXHIBITED CYCLES OF TRADE / IMPORT REPLACEMENT OVER THE PAST 8,000 YEARS. IF THE CURRENT CYCLE KEEPS SWINGING IN AN UNSUSTAINABLE DIRECTION CITIZENS OF ALL NEW URBAN REGIONS WILL BE ADVERSELY IMPACTED.

    EACH ERA HAS HAD A NEW SET OF PHYSICAL AND TECHNOLOGICAL PARAMETERS BUT EACH ERA INVOLVES HUMANS WITH ESSENTIALLY THE SAME GENES AND THE SAME PROCLIVITIES.

    THE BASIC PREMISE PRESENTED IN THE POST IS THAT “TRADE” BENEFITS THOSE AT THE TOP OF THE ECONOMIC FOOD CHAIN.

    MOVING TOWARD “IMPORT REPLACEMENT” HAS A BENEFICIAL IMPACT ON THE WELL BEING OF A MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION THE “PLACE” AND AT THIS TIME THE “PLACE” IS NEW URBAN REGIONS AND URBAN SUPPORT REGIONS.

    BENEFICIAL CIRCUMSTANCES FOR THE MAJORITY IN A REGION IS A PRECONDITION FOR SUSTAINING DEMOCRACY AND A MARKET ECONOMY.

    “(2) Production of some high end goods will stay in this country — especially auto manufacture because it is cheaper to make them here (and meet U.S.-sourced (sic) parts requirements in trade pacts).”

    THIS IS NOT A DISCUSSION OF “COUNTRY” OR NATION-STATE, IT IS A DISCUSSION OF REGIONS, SPECIFICALLY NEW URBAN REGIONS AND URBAN SUPPORT REGIONS.

    IT IS AT BEST SPECULATIVE TO SUGGEST WHERE “AUTOS” WILL BE MADE BECAUSE:

    IT IS PROBABLE THAT LARGE PRIVATE VEHICLES HAVE A LIMITED FUTURE AS THE PRIMARY MODE OF MOBILITY AND ACCESS.

    SMALLER, CHEAPER, LIGHTER PRIVATE VEHICLES AND NEW TYPES OF SHARED VEHICLES THAT REFLECT THE REALITY OF EVER MORE EXPENSIVE FUEL AND THE NEED TO SERVE FUNCTIONAL SETTLEMENT PATTERNS WILL ESTABLISH NEW PARAMETERS OF PRODUCTION AND USE.

    “(3) The U.S. still exports some very low end products and always will. The biggest single commodity moving from Hampton Roads isn’t coal it is scrap paper.”

    AND SO?

    IF LOCATION VARIABLE COST ARE FAIRLY ALLOCATED, IS SCRAP PAPER A LEADING EXPORT PRODUCT?

    EVEN IF IT IS, DOES THAT HAVE ANY IMPACT ON THE BASIC DISCUSSION?

    “(4) The U.S. started becoming a service economy years ago and now that is starting to change as financial services, IT services and even some medical services move offshore thanks to ultra-high speed digital communications.”

    AN URBAN ECONOMY IS A SERVICE ECONOMY. THAT IS A PARAMETER OF THE CURRENT ERA.

    THIS IS NOT A NATION-STATE ISSUE. IT IS A BALANCED COMMUNITY AND NEW URBAN REGION ISSUE.

    “Yes, that low-paid doctor in India can read your X-Ray just as well as an Amerian (sic) doctor, although I understand that the Indians have trouble with American English and often misspell and misfile because they don’t understand American-sounding last names and streetnames (sic). A lost file is as good as no file especially when you’re sick..

    THESE APPEAR TO BE CORRECT STATEMENTS BUT WHAT IS THE CONNECTION TO THE BASIC POINTS OF THE POST AND COMMENTS BY THOSE INTERESTED IN THE TOPIC – AS OPPOSED TO THOSE ATTEMPTING TO OBFUSCATING IT?

    “(5) The U.S. is enjoying some export benefits now because the dollar is so cheap yet it is likely that the U.S. will keep importing lots of cheap, foreign made products over the long term.”

    “LIKELY?”

    WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS OF A CHEAP DOLLAR ON THE AVERAGE CITIZEN AND THE GOODS AND SERVICES THEY NEED TO ACHIEVE A QUALITY LIFE?

    “(6) The bloom is off the China rose. After years of the U.S. media boosting China, the trend has swung back with reports of poorly made, unsafe goods. The NY Times has a fascinating story today about how China’s aquafarming of shrimp, tilapia, etc. is highly polluted. I remember seeing shrimp farms when I visited Thailand a dozen years ago and I did wonder about cleanliness. Personally I prefer shrimp from the good ole U.S. Southeast but much of the product is stressed by OUR polluted waters, overfishing and high prices.

    IF THESE OBSERVATIONS ARE CORRECT – AND THEY SEEM TO BE – WOULD THEY NOT SUPPORT THE BASIC THRUST OF THE ORIGINAL POST: MOVE TOWARD IMPORT REPLACEMENT – E.G. SAFER FOOD – AND AWAY FROM MAXIMIZING THE CAPACITY OF LONG DISTANCE SHIPPING?

    NOW WE HAVE THE SIX “POINTS.” WHICH OF THEM HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH DISCREDITING THE ORIGINAL POST OR THE RELEVANT COMMENTS?

    “(7) What bothers me is that too much of this discussion is being undertaken with the rose-tinted classes of land use planners …”

    WHO ARE THESE “LAND USE PLANNERS” WITH ROSE-TINTED GLASSES? PERHAPS THE PERSON WHO YOU PROMISED NOT “TO COMMENT ON” HIS “MATERIAL.”

    “who certainly have something to say, but are ignoring a great deal of the big picture.”

    WHAT PART OF THE PICTURE IS IGNORED? NO SUCH CONTEXTUAL ISSUE IS LISTED IN THE SIX “POINTS.”

    IT MAY BOTHER PG, HOWEVER:

    PG AGREED “TO AVOID COMMENT IN ON YOUR MATERIAL”

    PG HAS STATED HE IS UNWILLING TO EVEN TRY AND UNDERSTAND THE PARAMETERS OR THE VOCABULARY OF THE DISCUSSION. PG WILL NOT EVEN BOTHER TO LOOK UP WORDS IN THE GLOSSARY.

    “Rather than read some obscure urban planner, …”

    JANE JACOBS IS FREQUENTLY LISTED AS ONE OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL SCHOLARS OF THE 20TH CENTURY, ESPECIALLY AMONG THOSE CONCERNED WITH HUMAN SETTLEMENT PATTERNS.

    “why not take a second look at Ricardo or Marx?”

    IT IS SURPRISING THAT SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY LIVED BEHIND THE IRON CURTAIN WOULD RECOMMEND MARX AS AN SOURCE FOR OUTLINING A SUSTAINABLE TRAJECTORY AND THE EVOLUTION OF BALANCED AND FUNCTIONAL SETTLEMENT PATTERNS.

    IF PG HAD BOTHERED TO READ EVEN A BRIEF SUMMARY OF BOOKS BY JANE JACOBS HE WOULD FIND SHE DOES ADDRESS THOSE AUTHORS AT LENGTH AND MANY OTHERS. ONE OF HER OPENING OBSERVATIONS IN “CITIES AND THE WEALTH OF NATIONS” IS THAT ADAM SMITH – AND MOST ECONOMISTS SINCE (INCLUDING SPECIFICALLY MARX AS I RECALL) – HAVE ASSUMED THAT THE “NATION STATE” IS THE FOCUS OF MACRO ECONOMIC ACTIVITY BUT IT IS NOT.

    “Are there any economists or business people with real foreign experience out there in blogland?”

    WHAT IS “REAL” FOREIGN EXPERIENCE?

    “Peter Galuszka”

    …………..

    Dear Peter:

    You have stated that you are frustrated that your profession – or perhaps those who employ those in your profession – have gone off and left the noble and honorable traditions of Journalism.

    We suspect that you are frustrated by the fact that you say you hate Big Boxes but see no alternative to importing more cheap stuff.

    You say you love trains but want to write them off based on a tragically flawed allocation of location-variable costs.

    It seems at this point you can either try to understand the parameters of the discussion as laid down in the original post or you can try to fulfill your promise not to make negative comments.

    Perhaps we could agree that at both journalists and “land use planners” are part of the problem, not part of the solution. That is exactly what I stated in my resignation letter to the professional planning organizations a number of years ago.

    Happy Holidays.

    EMR

  39. Anonymous Avatar

    EMR,
    I have never been “trained” as a journalist aside from a summer course as a high school junior.

    Peter Galuszka

  40. Anonymous Avatar

    And Ed,

    One more thing. When I comment on this blog, I am not going to use planner jargon and restrict to parameters set by anyone. Sorry, you don’t get to set the rules.

    Peter Galuszka

  41. Anonymous Avatar

    “You say you love trains but want to write them off based on a tragically flawed allocation of location-variable costs. “

    The way I remember it, your allocation of location variable costs depends on charging more for services the farther they have to be extended from their origin. I think your argument was that it is a lot cheaper to provide services in town.

    If that is the case, how would you reallocate location variable costs in such a way that train service could survive?

    Charge less for longer trips?

    RH

  42. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    this is also related to roads that “connect” ( as opposed to roads that provide access).

    roads that “connect” are the “mobility” part of Access and Mobility.

    Trains could be also…

    but the germane point is who pays for the connecting roads and trains and are they considered a locational variable cost or not and if so or not.., why so or not…

    If HOT lanes ARE.. “connecting” and people pay for their trips on them.. then commuter rail .. equivalent?

    BOTH provide mobility…

    you have to have the roads… for the folks who need to go from one area to another… to grandmas house or from the UPS distribution center to where the package needs to go…

    unfortunately that same road needs to be much larger because in addition to using it as a “connecting road” for non-commuting.. it also IS used for commuting… and commuting is the 600 lb gorilla that eats up the capacity.

  43. E M Risse Avatar

    HEY, LARRY WRAP UP

    It is time to wrap up this string:

    Early one morning some time ago Peter Galuszka corrected EMR as follows:

    “I have never been “trained” as a journalist aside from a summer course as a high school junior.”

    Sorry, Peter. You had me fooled.

    Later that same morning Peter Galuszka said:

    “And Ed, One more thing. When I comment on this blog, I am not going to use planner jargon…”

    I am sure that got some chuckles from card carrying “planners.” Our Vocabulary has little to do with “planners” beyond the fact that “planners” are the most frequent users of the Core Confusing Words.

    As we noted in a later post (“A SECOND TEST FOR INSANITY, SMOKING OUT HUMPTY DUMPTY”) everyone is free to use the Vocabulary they choose. The question is: “Do you want to be understood or do you want to compound the confusion with ‘simple” words?”

    There was another comment that requires a response:

    At 6:28 PM, 14 December an easily identified (by their sarcasm and continuing attempt to pave the road with red herring) “anonymous” said:

    “JRR Tolkien no doubt had a lot of sources for Lord of the Ring.”

    Indeed, JRR Tolkien may have had a lot of sources but he did not cite them in his Foot Notes / End Notes nor did he propose suggested readings that document his sources.

    We lived near Hobbit’s Glen for number of years. There are some important things one can learn form places like Hobbit’s Glen but JRR Tolkien did not write about them.

    We are sure that the well known and highly respected “Anon 6:28″ thought his / her comment was funny in addition to being disrespectful and divisive. At some level it was “funny.”

    That is the level of entertainment.

    While studying philosophy in graduate school we studied with a professor who said “everything” could be reduced to a “trinity.” (We were not unmindful of that when we chose TRILO-G for the title of our forthcoming three book set.) But then with The Estates Matrix, perhaps the magic number is four…

    With respect to the context for entertainment the three spheres might be the pursuit of:

    1. Pleasure / fun / entertainment / self-gratification / self-satisfaction

    2. Money

    3. Making the world a better place

    In the insect world the positions would be argued by a Grasshopper, an Assassin Bug and an Ant. In the context of the mammals with which we grew up in the Northern Rocky Mountain Urban Support Region it would be an Otter, a Wolverine and a Beaver.

    While some dwell at the Pleasure / fun … end of the spectrum, we live on the “Making-the-world-a-better-place” end. We are more and more convinced that the two do not have much in common in cyberspace, especially when blogs are set up to encourage the launching of Anon comments.

    As we noted in the close-out of “A SECOND TEST FOR INSANITY, SMOKING OUT HUMPTY DUMPTY”

    Even without discounting for multiple postings by rabid anon flamers, our private messages of support far outnumber the public Anon rock throwing. This fact calls into question the value of Anon blogs.”

    We would suggest that there needs to be a serious exploration of usefulness / uselessness of on line dialogue when Anon comments are welcomed and facilitated by the blogging software.

    The usefulness of “Known-party” dialogue was demonstrated in this string by the exchange with Larry Gross of Hey, Larry fame. Agreement was reached when Larry articulated what he expected of us and we responded that his expectation could not be met. We referred to our work on citizen education and were able to move on. Educating citizens one at a time via a Blog is not a possibility.

    Then there is the issue of tone. In a prior post concerning the dialogue with Peter Galuszka we agreed that from time to time we were seen as patronizing and condescending. At other times our positions – which we believe were presented as “not suffering fools gladly” – are viewed as being argumentative.

    From an historical perspective, we received some interesting feedback from the campaign manager of the only serious election campaign we ever entered. He stated that he had never seen someone who generated such polarized voters both for and against. We won by a sizeable margin but those for and against were very adamant about their positions.

    In the Blog context the negative comments are public, the positive feedback comes in private notes and emails. Supportive comments in private communications are frequently from person we do not know. Some are from the Z Team described in the note at the end of the 16 Nov post by Jim Bacon “Say Goodbye Old Power Grid.

    Who are those Anons who post angry, self-righteous comments?

    First we know that the vast majority – the RHTCs – have no time to read much less state what they think on line. That sets aside the most of the population and is the reason why PROPERTY DYNAMICS – especially in times of falling dwelling unit values – makes so much sense.

    Here are some of the categories that seem to populate the Anons:

    • Those who have given up on making the world a better place for more than themselves
    • A number who get their greatest pleasure from stirring up culture war issues
    • Those who are paid to obfuscate and confuse serious discussion
    • Ones who get intense pleasure from insulting one-ups-person-ship such as the JRR Tolkien fan
    • More than one of the above categories

    It is a shame so many with positive goals have given up on this and other Blogs over the past four years. They just cannot be bothered with batting back the negative comments.

    In our comments, we try to help those who seem to be serious about becoming better informed

    From time to time we toss our bait to see what and who comes up so that we can better articulate new comprehensive Conceptual Frameworks such as The Estates Matrix.

    We are sure that some hope that the on-line discussions will “keep him busy” so he does have time to do real damage to Business As Usual.

    As that engineer with the train load of pig iron called out: We fooled you!

    The negative comments do not deter us from work on TRILO-G.

    Have a Happy New Year.

    EMR

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