by James A. Bacon

Like 450 other higher-ed institutions across the United States, the University of Virginia will require all students to be fully vaccinated for the COVID-19 vaccine if they want to return to classes this fall. The mandate extends to the 2,800 students who got the virus and now enjoy acquired immunities. Oddly, the mandate does not include university employees, even though they are older on average and more likely to catch and spread the virus.

Virginia may be reaching herd immunity as the number of confirmed cases rapidly approaches zero, but UVa can be fairly said to have reached herd insanity — the phenomenon of following other colleges and universities issuing vaccine mandates because everyone is issuing them.

A couple of days ago I wrote a post asking the university to reveal UVa President Jim Ryan’s justification for asking the Board of Visitors to approve the mandate. No explanation is forthcoming. The university says that the president’s “working papers” are exempt from the Freedom of Information Act. Judging by the comments on that post (150 at this point), readers were more fixated on the scientific and moral dimensions of the policy than UVa’s lack of transparency, so I turn to that issue today.

While pro- and anti-mandate advocates were contending on Bacon’s Rebellion, Aaron Kheriaty and Gerard F. Bradley published a column in the Wall Street Journal that clarified several aspects of the debate.

Schools have long required vaccinations against infectious disease, but the COVID-19 mandates are unprecedented, Kheriaty and Bradley write. “Never before have colleges and insisted that students or employees receive an experimental vaccine as a condition of attendance or employment.”

The Pfizer, Moderna, and Johnson & Johnson vaccines underwent an accelerated approval process in a desperate bid to halt the spread of the virus. They were issued Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) based on testing that was extensive but not as rigorous as normal Food and Drug Administration clinical trials. Given the scope of the emergency, federal authorities deemed the massive benefits of taking the vaccine to be worth the relatively minor risks associated the vaccine itself.

But as Kheriaty and Bradley point out, the risks run by naturally immunized students are trivial. They shred comparisons between the university mandates and childhood immunization programs.

Universities might counter that — as with elementary schools requiring pediatric vaccinations — immunization is for students’ own good. but children can be at significant medical risks from the illnesses that we vaccinate them against, particularly when community vaccination rates are low. Not so with Covid. For those under 30, the risks of serious morbidity and mortality are close to zero.

What kind of risks? A June 10 review by the FSA’s Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee indicated at least one: an “excess risk for heart inflammation, especially in men 30 and younger.”

Likewise, indiscriminate vaccine mandates ignore the fact that thousands of students who have recovered from COVID infection have acquired immunities “more robust and durable” than those provided by the vaccine. Why should students who are at near-zero risk expose themselves to the risks, minor though they may be, that are associated with the vaccine?

University leaders might claim that the mandates are necessary to make faculty, staff and students “feel safe” enough to reopen. Kheriaty and Bradley describe that logic as a “psychological placebo.” “Requiring the naturally immune to be vaccinated doesn’t make anyone actually safer.”

In closing, the authors offer a moral argument against the mandates. Compelling people to get vaccinations before the vaccines have been fully approved by the FDA amounts to the commandeering of populations for research without their consent — a practice that is otherwise universally frowned upon. Informed consent, they argue, “is arguably the most deeply rooted doctrine in contemporary medical ethics.”

UVa’s unwillingness to be transparent about the thinking behind its vaccine mandate leaves members of the university community wondering if Ryan & Company considered any of the issues that Kheriaty and Bradley raised. Did UVa leadership contemplate the option of allowing COVID survivors — as confirmed by the university’s own tests — to forego the vaccination? Did leadership wrestle with the contradiction of mandating the vaccination for students but not for employees? Did it occur to anyone that there might be ethical implications to the decision?

We’ll never know because UVa won’t tell us. We might as well be trying to pry the truth about COVID-19 origins from the Communists Chinese


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93 responses to “Herd Immunity Versus Herd Insanity”

  1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    Why is all this venom being directed at UVa? Why aren’t other institutions in Virginia being criticized? Just from a quick check on the internet, W&M, George Mason, and Va Tech also are requiring students to be vaccinated against COVID as a condition for attending class this fall. I did not see any extensive justification on their websites for this decision.

    The only issue I would have is why employees and faculty are not being so required. Of the four mentioned, it seems that only W&M is requiring faculty and employees to be vaccinated.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Yep. The fact that hundreds of other colleges have come to the same judgement does not faze the wacadoodles.

      Nowhere can I find the word “experimental” in CDC narratives about this vaccine and it’s performance to date puts it on par with most “approved” vaccines.

      But, yes, this is how Conservatives do things now days. If you impugned all the colleges it would sound too much like they were all colluding together, and Conservatives were attacking mainstream thinking, so better to isolate them individually as if they are out of the mainstream.

      Not a good and honest way to make specific points on the overall issue itself in my view but par for the course these days with Conservatives. They like to “target” both institutions and people. See it here almost every week in BR.

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        The pot is black vis-a-vis the kettle.

        1. Publius Avatar

          Sounds racist to me.
          Cancel Nancy!

          1. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
            energyNOW_Fan

            Smokin pot too

          2. DJRippert Avatar
            DJRippert

            Not until July 1.

          3. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Nah, actually did it two weekends ago; first time in 40 years. My brother-in-law had a vape pen.

            I hit it like I would have a joint from back in the day.

            “You probably shouldn’t have done that. This is 22% THC. That might hurt.”

            It did.

      2. Deborah Hommer Avatar
        Deborah Hommer

        “The fact that hundreds of other colleges have come to the same judgement does not faze the wacadoodles.” Bandwagon fallacies don’t make good decisions. Indeed, it’s the exact type of worthless brainless historical propaganda which has perpetrated numerous crimes against humanity – doing what being told to do or what everyone else is doing. Please tell me you didn’t teach your children such stupidity. Look up the Asch Conformity Experiment.
        Incidentally there is a difference between indoctrination and critical thinking. Those that don’t think for themselves and are told what to think are indoctrinated. Those that go research for themselves and come to their own conclusions are critical thinkers.

        The childish name-calling and reductionist categorization of people needs to end. Just grow up.

        Now, the fact still remains – whether you choose to look at the information or not – EUA vaccines are experimental. Here’s Judge Sullivan’s opinion in DOE v. Rumsfeld concluding opinion (feel free to read for context): “The women and men of our armed forces put their lives on the line every day to preserve and safeguard the freedoms that all Americans cherish and enjoy. Absent an informed consent or presidential waiver, the United States cannot demand that members of the armed forces also serve as guinea pigs for experimental drugs.” The fact is “EUA products are unapproved, unlicensed, and experimental.” (link below)
        Americasfrontlinedoctors.org has a team of doctors and lawyers who go to primary sources to educate the public on many subjects, including the law and the EUA – letters to employers, universities, liabilities. You might want to educate yourself. https://americasfrontlinedoctors.org/legal/vaccines-the-law/

      3. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        Tell people you disagree with (even when they are correct) they are stupid, calling them wackadoodles and making broad brush statements about political ideologies you don’t like doesn’t endear anyone to your position either. That doesn’t seem to stop you from doing it daily.

      4. WayneS Avatar

        11-111
        00-010
        01-011
        10-110
        10-101
        00-010

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          I’m geetin’ old. If that’s ASCII, save me the trouble.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            and ignorant.. to boot.

          2. WayneS Avatar

            Nope, not ASCII.

            Here’s a clue, though: The last word on AT&T.

          3. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Pehwte? Whiskey tango foxtrot!

          4. WayneS Avatar

            Wrong code.

            Try ITA2 LSB Left

          5. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Wouldn’t this be equally as fun and beyond him?

            –.
            ..-.
            -.–

      5. WayneS Avatar

        “Nowhere can I find the word “experimental” in CDC narratives about this vaccine and it’s performance to date puts it on par with most “approved” vaccines.”

        And yet they ARE still experimental. To ignore that fact is to ignore science.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          NOT classified as “experimental” which has a specific meaning that does not apply.

          To ignore the fact that millions of doses have been given with very few serious side effect is ALSO “ignoring science” as well as disingenuous and just plain dumb.

          The track record for this vaccine is as good or better than most approved vaccines.

          1. WayneS Avatar

            I have not ignored the fact that the drugs have been used with few side effects. I think that is wonderful. But the fact remains, the vaccines have not yet received final approval by the FDA.

            Do you HONESTLY think a government and its agents should be able to require that its citizens and legal visitors be subjected to a drug that has not been fully vetted by the FDA?

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Yes if the drug has been in very wide use – millions of people – with few side effects – which is exactly what the FDA process did in more gradual steps prior.

            I note when there were blood clots, they did pause –

            Finally – no one is REQUIRING that you get it no matter what – that’s a dishonest portrayal.

            They’re requiring it IF you want to engage in certain activities, and it IS your choice.

            Just like with some employers , some cruise lines, entry into other countries, etc.

            You can decide but you cannot use your own wants to override the adopted policy of those who provide services and facilities that they want to stipulate safety.

            You go onto a construction site – and you must wear a helmet.

            You visit someone in the hospital and depending on the situation, you must wear a mask or even a full gown.

            Each corporation, institution, etc has the RIGHT to set the terms of entry and use based on THEIR judgement of risk and safety.

            You are NOT “entitled” to your own standards or beliefs – it’s their decision for their facility.

      6. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        Your understanding of the US Constitution and the very founding concepts of the United States is disturbing. From religious freedom to freedom of speech, America was founded on the concept that the majority cannot tyrannize the natural rights of the minority.

        In Virginia a majority fairly recently passed an amendment to the state constitution that defined a marriage as the union of one man with one woman. That was the tyranny of the majority against the natural rights of the minority. It was struck down by the US Supreme Court. Your argument that “hundreds of other colleges” have decided to make their students unwilling guinea pigs for a trial vaccine for a disease that will almost certainly not kill or seriously harm them is no different than millions of people voting against gay marriage.

        Meanwhile, UVa’s leader, Jim Ryan, lacks the courage to mandate the vaccine for his employees and staff. People who are far more likely to get sick and die. I guess they have rights that the students somehow lack. He also refuses to explain himself despite UVa being a wholly owned asset of the Commonwealth of Virginia.

        Finally, whatever happened to the government keeping its hands off people bodies?

        This all started with Ralph Northam and his disrespect for the natural rights of Virginians. Predictably, it has now spread to people like Jim Ryan and the UVa BoV.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          “America was founded on the concept that the majority cannot tyrannize the natural rights of the minority.”

          It says that in the Constitution? Really? At best, Madison explained their motives as that “nobody rules”, not the one, not the few, not the majority. Good plan, but it’s been an abject failure at times.

          1. DJRippert Avatar
            DJRippert

            Here is an actual quote from James Madison …

            “Measures are too often decided, not according to the rules of justice and the rights of the minor party, but by the superior force of an interested and overbearing majority.”

          2. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            And that’s in th Constitution? Or, maybe just a Federalist paper? That’s a sweet sentiment, but nowhere does that appear in law, nor any other governing document.

          3. DJRippert Avatar
            DJRippert

            The entire Bill of Rights was implemented to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority under color of governmental authority. For example, prohibiting Congress from establishing a state sanctioned religion or from forbidding particular religions. The US Supreme Court has long interpreted the Bill of Rights as applying to the states as well as the Federal government. UVa is nothing more than an appendage of the Commonwealth of Virginia.

          4. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            And vaccines are holy communion? Novel.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Imagine if you will if VDH had to answer questions as to their policies to the level you are asserting?

            As a Conservative, do you REALLY want govt to be done this way even if the GOP ends up in charge?

            Every policy of every State agency would have to respond to this level ?

            seriously?

            If the guys that have gone after UVA would also go after every other college in Va with the same demand?

            You guys have gone nuts!

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          DJ – do you understand the Constitutional right of “freedom of speech” if you go to a BOS meeting and want to speak?

          When they tell you that you can only speak when they say you can and only for 3 minutes and cannot direct your comments to anyone personally – is that “Constitutional”?

        3. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          What a quad-load of BS! freedom this, founded that…

          Colleges, institutions, businesses, govt, across the country – across the world wants people to get vaccinated because it’s recommended by science and it protects the “herd” and reduces deaths.

          No matter, according to Conservative the science is wrong/bad and is “lying” – around the world apparently.

          What’s going on now is a continuation of where Conservatives started way back when science was recommending masks and social distancing, don’t do congregating venues, etc….

          Back then, I distinctly recall DJ was advocating that we all get infected to gain herd immunity and whoever died, so be it.

          Look at the summit in Geneva What are they doing? They’re WEARING MASKS so yep they’re part of this conspiracy also!

          I went to the doctor this morning. The science on the door said “masks required”. All personnel inside wore masks.

          I went along with it. Brought my mask just in case and put it on.

          What is so frigging hard about just trying to get along with each other?

          1. DJRippert Avatar
            DJRippert

            I was vaccinated at the first possible chance. That’s not the point. The question is whether the government can force me (or anybody else) to get vaccinated.

            Apparently, Jim Ryan can’t or won’t mandate vaccinations for his staff and employees. Why aren’t mandatory vaccinations required for staff and employees? Could it be that Ryan is afraid UVa will be sued? He can jerk around students but jerking around an associate professor is a violation of the professor’s rights?

            I went to the grocery store yesterday. The sign read, “We encourage people who are not fully vaccinated to wear masks.”

            Is your doctor or my grocery store working from the right science, Larry?

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Are you talking about the Govt or Jim Ryan?

            re: the “right science” – yes

            the science is not the inviolate truth from on high – never to change.

            Ya’ll are confused on this.

            Science IS evolving and even science is not in agreement on all things but to toss science and adopt non-science because science itself is still not all known , to go to folks who are not scientists at all, bloggers, conservative blogger, conspiracy theorists, etc is DUMB!

            I will follow along even if I think they are being overly risk adverse because like watching jerks who break in line or cut people off – I’m not going to be one of them.

            We can behave even if we are skeptical. We don’t have to act like a bunch of undisciplined cretins like we are now seeing in many venues.. just effing idiots- who apparently never really grew up.

            It’s becoming synonymous with conservatism…

          3. DJRippert Avatar
            DJRippert

            Jim Ryan is the government. Although I know that UVa administrators sometimes think they are very special they are government employees. As far as I’m concerned he might as well work at VDOT. And if VDOT insisted that all its employees get vaccinated … I’d object to that too.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            He IS the govt but when you personalize it to the person and not the issue – and then he starts getting hate mail and threats then what?

            VDOT, like ANY employer , can set policies that involve the potential spread of disease among it’s employees. They would be irresponsible if they did not.

            Do you want people that prepare food in restaurants to be allowed to carry infectious diseases like tuberculosis or other?

            If you got a communicable disease from someone working in a restaurant – what would you expect?

            Ya’ll are so wrapped up in the culture war, you’ve lost sight of simple common sense.

        4. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          I saw this:

          ” Are faculty and staff required to show proof of vaccination?
          Yes, all faculty and staff are required to show proof of vaccination before the start of the Fall 2021 semester. Details of this process are located on the HR website.”

          is that wrong or they changed?

    2. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      Perhaps it’s because UVa has been unwilling to explain why and how when asked, where as the others have responded.

    3. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      I dunno, plantation FFV elite sense of ownership?

    4. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      As an alumnus of UVa Jim tried to communicate with his alma mater. They refused to answer the reasonable journalistic questions being asked.

      All of the colleges should have to explain themselves.

      UVa was just the example chosen.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        No. that was _not_ “communication”. It was aggressive and confrontational – on purpose – and yes – target UVA … see it for what it is.

        1. DJRippert Avatar
          DJRippert

          A journalist is allowed to ask a public official to explain their policies. That actually is in the US Constitution. There is no requirement to ask all public officials the same question before reporting what was said.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            They can and do ask, but what is the requirement for answers?

            You don’t need a freaking Constitution to ASK questions in the first place!

            Ya’ll are confused… on this.

            Somewhere along the line – ya’ll went kaflooey… big time.

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Here’s a plan. Let’s write dozens of stories that are critical of the students and administration over as many nitpick issues as possible and then demand the favor of a response to a question on a policy decision that is, as indicated by others here, the same as most schools of equal size and stature.

        The easiest answer, and very defendable, is “to maintain consistency withe the other Tier 1 State colleges. You’re welcome.”

        “All of the colleges should have to explain themselves.”
        Because you say so? So, should they have to debrief every application decision too?

        1. DJRippert Avatar
          DJRippert

          The easiest answer, and very defendable, is “to maintain consistency withe the other Tier 1 State colleges. You’re welcome.”

          If it were consistent then UVa would be demanding that staff and employees get vaccinated before returning to campus … just like William & Mary has done.

          As far as the consistency defense in general – at one point all the Tier 1 State colleges used slave labor. They also consistently admitted only men and consistently refused admission to Black people.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Oh geeze. You can’t talk about a current issue without dredging up stuff from long, long ago?

            With you guys these days, every issue has a “string” which unravels every grievance you have… geezy peezy.. half the time ya’ll end up with Orangeman Bad!

            lord!

          2. WayneS Avatar

            “You can’t talk about a current issue without dredging up stuff from long, long ago?”

            Now THAT is funny. Are all the mirrors in your house broken?

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Nope. If we’re talking about something LIKE racism – yes – go back.

            But if you talking about something like vaccine policy – you go back to plantation elite? really?

            How about you talk about vaccine policy and go back to prior issues with vaccines and policy instead?

          4. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            “The only issue I would have is why employees and faculty are not being so required. Of the four mentioned, it seems that only W&M is requiring faculty and employees to be vaccinated.”

            From a trusted source not 6″ from here…

            On the issue of slavery, I seem to recall it took a tad more than a petition for redress. Not knowing James, but I suspect he might consider the level of effort to end the use of slaves at the State schools to be a tad excessive in this case.

          5. DJRippert Avatar
            DJRippert

            You brought up the consistency defense. I’m glad Dick sees the inconsistency. Apparently, you don’t or can’t or won’t see the inconsistency.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            There is general consistency and absolute 100% consistency.

            So if it’s not 100%, then it opens up all kinds of “wrong” to talk about?

            Ya’ll are a HOOT!

          7. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Dick’s statement makes W&M the inconsistency.

            Okay. Consistent with the majority. There better?

            BTW, who says UVa even recognizes W&M as a Tier 1 State school? I don’t think they acknowledge its existence.

      3. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Actually it was targeted and personalized to Ryan.

        This is the conservative approach these days.

        Fauci has to now have personal security. THe election officials in places like Georgia and Arizona have to have personal security. Northam has had to bolster his security. And it would not surprise me the least if Ryan now has to have personal security.

        This is you guys. This is how you are now “participating” in issues.

    5. Publius Avatar

      It’s not venom directed at UVA, although I think there is plenty to be angry about the intellectual and social atmosphere there. I would say it more reflects the frustration at being told what to do by the “experts,” seeing so much that the experts were wrong, whether in good faith or for other purposes, and now being expected to just accept the latest edict, without explanation. Sort of the fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, same on me mantra. People cut the “experts” some slack initially… Now many suspect the Emperor has no clothes. The natives are getting restless.

  2. Atlas Rand Avatar
    Atlas Rand

    According to the emails we received from The Chief of Staff and then followed up on by HR, state agencies can require you to receive a COVID shot as a condition of employment and they can ask for your vaccination status. State agencies were choosing not to take this step, due to wanting to celebrate those that vaccinate (Mercer). According to HR it was because they expected lawsuits and pushback, and believed most state agency HR departments were not equipped to deal with the process legally, or to deal with any pushback, so easier not to require.

    I imagine that the same distinction is the reason for the difference in requirements for staff/students. Staff would have a process that would have to be gone through to require, including employment lawsuits et, whereas students can simply be denied acceptance or have their enrollment revoked.

    1. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      You are exactly right. Jim Ryan and the BoV feel entitled to jerk around the students because they know the students are unlikely to punch back. They are unwilling to jerk around the employees and staff because they know the employees and staff will punch back.

      Cowards always bully those who they expect to take the bullying.

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Then explain W&M.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          W&M made no exemption for their employee’s. The mandate applied across the board and only once it has received full FDA approval.

          IE: Learn to f’n read, before you comment or maybe put down the bottle.

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            “W&M made no exemption for their employee’s.”

            Their employee’s what?

            Right. Only W&M is requiring all employees to get vaccines.

            Thus, I wanted DJ to explain why W&M is bullying someone they don’t expect “to take the bullying”.

            Try reading for effect.

            Now, back you go.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Read harder, W&M makes no exceptions (students and staff). All will be required to vaccinate, but that’s is predicated upon the vaccine receiving “full approval”.

            https://www.wm.edu/sites/pathforward/health/vaccinations/index.php#:~:text=Therefore%2C%20William%20%26%20Mary%20will%20require,our%20usual%20practices%20and%20policies.

            Which is a stark difference between this:

            “Students who are not fully vaccinated and do not qualify for an exemption will not be permitted to come to Grounds after July 1.”

            “COVID-19 vaccination is strongly encouraged for UVA employees, though not yet required.”

            https://news.virginia.edu/content/uva-require-vaccination-students-person-operations-resume-fall

            Now put down the gin and sober up your drunk f’.

  3. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    Those covid vaccination cards look easy to forge. What will Jim Ryan do about that?
    https://s2underground.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/covid-vaccine-card-version-2.pdf

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Indeed they ARE. So why not just do it and get along to go along? We know why not, right?

      1. WayneS Avatar

        “So why not just do it and get along to go along? ”

        Your personal motto…

      2. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        To Wayne –
        Basically , DON’T personalize your responses unless you want it returned in kind. And if it continues, I will ignore you.
        It’s your choice. Stick to the issues themselves or else you’ll be talking to yourself.

        1. WayneS Avatar

          It is a shame you have become so hateful and hostile over the last few weeks.

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Without going through the effort to check, one woould assume that forgery, or using a falsified document, would violate even the weakest of something called an Honor Code, hence for the student, the consequences would be dire.

      For the faculty, I suspect similar.

      1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead

        I am not so sure about dire consequences. Present times seem to reward or at least over look cheating. The current crop of college students have grown up in this culture wink wink honor.

        Take for example the colleges banning legal pot on campus next year. Dismissal is on the table but the recommended punishment is write an essay or a reprimand in the student file.

        I can’t picture anyone getting the heave ho over a forged vaccine slip of paper.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          It would be not easy for anyone to look at a vaccination card and then try to verify it especially if the cards were handed out but not recorded on the providers computer system. I tried to verify my own record with VDH and they professed no knowledge of me – in fact, offered me an appointment for vaccines a month after my second shot.

          1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            Verify? 17,000 students. 16,000 faculty and staff. 12,000 health care workers. Nobody is going to look that up. And the poor bean counter who is assigned that job might as well roll a rock uphill in the snow.

        2. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Wait! Colleges banning pot?! What is the world coming to? Next you’ll tell me frisbees and keggers are verboten.

          1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            There will be no “Hokie! Hokie! Hi! at VPI. At least on campus and in dorms. I bet that dumb rule will be unenforceable in the debauchery known as Pritchard Hall.

  4. Baconator with extra cheese Avatar
    Baconator with extra cheese

    I’m hoping the Satanic Temple steps in and provides religious cover for those who don’t want to be vaccinated. They do this frequently for women to get around abortion laws with high success.

  5. Steve Gillispie Avatar
    Steve Gillispie

    Thanks CJBova for a post actually on point and responsive to Jim, although hard to get to through the verbal scat of this BLOG’s pervasive ankle biters and yappers self-pleasuring with self-perceived clever and witty smack-downs.

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Of which that became one because of the gratuitous verbiage following “Jim,”.

    2. CJBova Avatar

      Blocking does wonders for cleaning up the comments. If you are curious to see what yapping you’ve missed, just look at the comments without logging into Discus. Then log in to return to normal discussion.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Yep. Everyone can be happy. Just block those you do not want to hear. Echo Chamber is easily achieved!

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          Says the poster who verbally berates anyone who doesn’t agree with him and desires an echo chamber and complains he doesn’t have one.

  6. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    I don’t see where UVa, or any other State agency, is required to provide justification to every policy decision unless ordered to do so by a governing department, no matter how many hair-on-fire alumni demand such.

    Go file a FOIA or a lawsuit.

    Bang, bang, bang. The drum is getting hollow.

    1. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      ” … and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        That’s one sided, you’ll note. It says you have the Right to Ask.

        1. DJRippert Avatar
          DJRippert

          And the FOIA laws in Virginia say, with some exceptions, you have the right to be told the answer. See CJ Bova’s comment below for further details.

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            And they don’t say when, do they?

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Nope. You do NOT have a “right” to the answer you want. They have answered. They provided a rationale for their action. You are NOT “entitled” to the type of answer you wanted. What is wrong with you folks?

            To get what you say you want – to apply that to all govt for all policies – what would happen?

            Ya’ll have gone off the rails… IMHO.
            I can just imagine how VDOT would have to operate if we followed what you guys say you want here.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            You have a right to AN answer, not THE answer you want.

            Have you never done a FOIA?

            Anyone with their salt doing FOIA responses in a govt organization knows HOW to “legally” answer them NOT to your satisfaction.

            If Conservatives were in charge of Virginia, I can guarantee you what their response would be – they’d “fix” FOIA!

  7. CJBova Avatar

    Working papers are not exempt if they have been disseminated to others. FOIA Advisory Opinion AO-12-00 and AO-01-16 The UVa student vaccination message “was signed by UVA President Jim Ryan, Provost Liz Magill, Chief Operating Officer J.J. Davis and Executive Vice President for Health Affairs Dr. K. Craig Kent.”

    The FOIA response to Walter Smith was,”The University’s vaccination policies were developed by the administration closely following advice from doctors, infectious disease specialists and public health experts at the UVA Medical School and Health System.”

    He had asked to see the advice. Unless the “administration” developed the policies without seeing, or hearing, the advice, the working papers exemption for the university president cannot apply. So did the administration make the decision; did they do so on the word of the university president alone; or did they consider advice in what is being called “working papers”?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      You’d have a much stronger case, if other colleges provided more than UVA did.

      Otherwise, it looks like they provided all they have to provide by law. They don’t have to provide the “advice” they followed – only that they did consult the guidance AND in THEIR judgement made that decision.

      Think about this. If VDOT recommends a signal light , and someone demands that they back up their decision with the specific guidance they used in making that decision.

      If that is the precedent and any/all inquiries would have to be answered to that level – imagine what happens to all state agencies, universities, etc… They’d have to hire dozens of people to respond to all the inquiries.

      And yes, this is coming from folks who cast themselves as “conservatives” who routinely argue against onerous and expensive regulations!

      Gillespie sez “ankle biters” , Indeed.

      1. WayneS Avatar

        “Think about this. If VDOT recommends a signal light , and someone demands that they back up their decision with the specific guidance they used in making that decision.”

        It happens all the time. If asked, VDOT can and will provide you copies of the traffic study(ies) and/or signal justification report(s) they prepared prior to recommending installation of a traffic signal. They will do the same thing when they recommend a change in the speed limit on a road.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          They WILL provide you with traffic studies, yes. But they will NOT argue with you on things like what is the proper site distance or dwell time on a light or justify with scientific “study” why they recommend 45 over 55, other than to cite standards. Where those standards actually come from and what they are – is actually debated and argued in transportation industry circles but they’re not going to engae the public in those types of issues because a lot of it is based on science and technical things most of the public does not really have the background to understand.

          Thus, it’s like someone arguing that the CDC guidance is “wrong” and they cite some study or worse some blogger and the CDC is simply not going to engage on that level.

          Choices and decisions and judgements must be made. Sometimes it’s truly trade offs, pros, cons and a decision has to be made and others, even inside the organization would disagree but at the end of the day, the leaders make the call and stop litigating it.

          What the govt MUST DO is “hear” you, they must receive your input and acknowledge it and perhaps even response in some way, but they are NOT required to provide you with chapter and verse of their decision process and for good reason.

          Can you imagine dozens, hundreds of people engaging on that basis, and those making the decisions having to respond in the level of detail to each one of them as currently advocated here for UVA?

          Want to gridlock? Yep.

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      You’re assuming he disseminated his working papers, and didn’t just present a summary to the group.

      It’s entirely possible he was the only person in the group to seek the medical advice, documented in his working papers for “deliberations” and he presented his conclusions that were accepted.

  8. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Somebody’s vying to be elected President to the Alumni Association…

  9. James Kiser Avatar
    James Kiser

    If vaccines work then those who have been vaccinated have nothing to fear and those that haven’t are responsible for their own risk. BTW don’t hand me the crap that it puts other at risk of paying for their medical care. We take care of drug addicts and illegal aliens free of charge. The fear mongering is incredible and just plain asinine.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      How do you feel about the BAN on smoking in indoor public places?

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      How do you feel about the BAN on smoking in indoor public places?

    3. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      You’re RIGHT, the vaccinated have nothing to fear… EXCEPT the vaccine-defeating variant that some unvaccinated Bozo creates just before he dies.

      Other than that, you’re bang on… EXCEPT if we can shoulder the medical costs of the pandemic, drug addicts, illegal aliens, the VA, the military, hospice, terminally diagnosed young people, CHIPS, Medicare/Medicaid, crime victims, e.g., GSWs from mass shootings, then really, how much is the stretch to cover the rest?

  10. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Herd immunity versus heard inanity.

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