by Dick Hall-SizemoreVirginia law

prohibits a convicted felon from possessing or transporting a firearm. Is that unconstitutional under the provisions of last year’s Supreme Court decision in New York State Rifle and Pistol Association v Bruen  (597 U.S. ___; 142 S. Ct. 2111)?

Background

Before trying to answer that question, it is helpful to review the Supreme Court’s opinion in Bruen. New York law required anyone wanting to carry a concealed handgun outside the home to show “proper cause” for the license. New York courts had interpreted that phrase to require applicants to show more than a general desire to protect themselves or their property. The Supreme Court struck down that law as a violation of a person’s right under the Second Amendment to carry a firearm for self-defense.

Writing for the majority, Justice Clarence Thomas set a new standard for laws regulating the possession of firearms. He stated that, to pass muster, such a law must be “consistent with the Second Amendment’s text and historical understanding.” Was there a law or ordinance like the modern one in place at the time of the adoption of the Second Amendment? Thomas conceded that “regulatory challenges posed by firearms today are not always the same as those that preoccupied the Founders in 1791 or the Reconstruction generation in 1868.” For such situations, courts could use prior laws or restrictions analogous to the current situation. He went into some detail to explain what could constitute an appropriate analogy. He concluded:

On the one hand, courts should not “uphold every modern law that remotely resembles a historical analogue,” because doing so “risk[s] endorsing outliers that our ancestors would never have accepted.” Drummond v. Robinson, 9 F. 4th 217, 226 (CA3 2021). On the other hand, analogical reasoning requires only that the government identify a well-established and representative historical analogue, not a historical twin. So even if a modern-day regulation is not a dead ringer for historical precursors, it still may be analogous enough to pass constitutional muster.

A detailed summary and analysis of the opinion can be found here.

As noted in a recent Wall Street Journal article, the Bruen decision and opinion has resulted in “chaos” in the lower courts. Judges are not sure what is acceptable under Thomas’s standard and what is not. One district judge floated the idea of appointing an historian as a consulting expert to assist him. Suddenly, historians are in demand by states, such as California, and are being paid up to $500 per hour to scavenge databases and newspaper archives for historic gun laws and render their opinion on them. In addition to attorneys on both sides presenting dueling precedents, there are now historians on both sides “clash[ing] in court papers, accusing each other of mischaracterizing past arms regulations.”

Applications

Back to the original question: Is it unconstitutional to prohibit a felon from possessing a firearm? The answer is: maybe. It depends. In June of this year, the Eighth Circuit Court of Appeals held that the federal statute prohibiting a felon from possessing a firearm did not violate the Second Amendment. In response to the defendant’s assertion that his prior conviction had been for a non-violent felony, which did not make him a “dangerous person” and thus entitled to possess a firearm, the Court, after citing numerous historical statutes and ordinances, as well as the language in the concurring opinions of Bruen, stated, “There is no need for felony-by-felony litigation regarding the constitutionality of [the statute].” All felons can be barred from possessing a firearm.

In contrast, at about the same time, on a 11-4 vote, the Third Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that a person convicted of a non-violent felony twenty years in the past could not be prohibited from possessing a firearm. Citing frequently the Bruen opinion, Judge Thomas Hardiman, the author of the majority opinion, asserted, “In sum, we reject the government’s contention that only ‘law-abiding, responsible citizens’ are counted among ‘the people’ protected by the Second Amendment.”

Virginia also has a statute that prohibits anyone convicted twice in a 36-month period of marijuana misdemeanors from possessing a firearm. Although it is no longer a misdemeanor in Virginia to possess a small amount of marijuana, it may be illegal for individuals convicted twice in a 36-month period under the former statute to possess a handgun. Furthermore, federal law makes it illegal for anyone convicted of possession of a controlled substance to possess a firearm. However, a federal district judge in Oklahoma has ruled that the federal law is unconstitutional under the provisions of the Bruen decision.

In another area, federal law has forbidden anyone subject to a restraining order from possessing a firearm (Virginia has a similar law.) This federal law has been overruled in accordance with Bruen. As related by Amy Howe on SCOTUSblog, a Texas man assaulted his girlfriend and threatened to kill her if she told anyone about the assault. A few months later, a Texas court entered a restraining order against him. The order prohibited him “from possessing a gun and warned him that doing so while the order was in effect could be a federal felony.” Sometime later, the guy was a suspect in a series of shootings and his house was searched pursuant to a warrant. In the course of the search officers found “a pistol, a rifle, and ammunition – along with a copy of the restraining order.” He was convicted in federal court of violating the restraining order and sentenced to just over six years in prison.

He appealed and the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the conviction. However, when the Bruen decision was announced, the circuit court issued a new opinion throwing out the conviction. The court concluded that the ban on individuals subject to restraining orders from possessing firearms was not “consistent with the country’s historical tradition of regulating firearms.”

This case (United States v Rahimi) is headed to the Supreme Court in its next term.

There are other restrictions on possession of firearms that are in jeopardy due to the Bruen decision. A district court in Delaware recently declared that, under the terms of Bruen, the Second Amendment protects the possession of untraceable firearms (no serial numbers) as well as “implies a corresponding right to manufacture firearms.” The Delaware law being challenged included a prohibition of using a 3D printer to “manufacture” a firearm. Comparable Virginia laws are one making it a misdemeanor to “remove, deface, alter, change, destroy or obliterate in any manner or way” the serial number of a firearm and one which makes it a Class 5 felony to “manufacture, import, sell, transfer or possess any plastic firearm.”

In the coming years, many of the Commonwealth’s statutes regulating the possession of firearms, some supported by both conservatives and liberals, may fail the Bruen constitutional tests.


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Comments

113 responses to “Guns for Felons?”

  1. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Apparently, shooting oneself in the foot cannot be made illegal.

    1. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      “Reckless handling of a firearm”

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Is reckless prescribed in the Constitution?

    2. Isn’t shooting oneself in the foot a public service?

      1. It depends on who’s doing the shooting.

  2. Kathleen Smith Avatar
    Kathleen Smith

    The rhetoric herein will be enjoyed! Good morning opener!

  3. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    “Suddenly, historians are in demand by states…”

    I see no downside to this side effect…

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Me, either.

  4. Appreciate this post by Mr. Hall-Sizemore. It raises important issues for consideration, not only at BR, but also by our legislators and courts.

    I’ve not yet studied the Bruen decision in any detail, so I don’t yet have firm opinions on most of the questions he raised.

    With respect to citizens being able to manufacture firearms, however, that shouldn’t nullify the law and penalty to “remove, deface, alter, change, destroy or obliterate in any manner or way” a serial number from the manufacturer.

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Do Not Remove This Tag Under Penalty of Law

      1. I’m feeling rebellious today and may find a mattress and do just that!

        1. What the heck. Why not go on a spree? Tear off four or five of the darned things.

    2. Virginia’s manufacture ban is limited to plastic guns. You can still make a steel one in your garage.

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        From the wording of the section dealing with plastic guns, it seems that the prime motivation behind the law was to prevent the manufacture of firearms that would not activate metal detectors.

        1. Barrels and bullets and springs are metal.
          TSA consistently allow firearms to get through xray inspection

        2. Lefty665 Avatar

          Nobody would choose to shoot an all plastic gun. The undetectable gun hysteria stampeded some legislatures into passing undetectable gun laws. It’s a made up issue.

      2. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        I feel like we are living in lala land. I thought this whole “untraceable plastic” firearm argument, died when Glock became mainstream.

        1. Anything 100% home-built is essentially untraceable. And some people have successfully 3-d printed all-plastic pistols. For the most part, though, an all plastic gun will last for a couple or few rounds and is then junk – but it’d be adequate for hijacking a airplane. Still might be detected, though, since no one has perfected all plastic cartridges or slugs. Those still contain a fair amount of metal.

          And, of course, there is no need for the overblown hysteria exhibited by the ‘news’ media about plastic guns.

          After all, a well made toy gun would be adequate for hijacking an airplane unless perhaps there were air marshals on board.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Anything 100% home-built is essentially untraceable.”

            Very true, but you and I know have the knowledge to know that if someone is building a firearm (kit or otherwise) they are doing so out of recreation, because it isn’t cheap.

            “And some people have successfully 3-d printed all-plastic pistols.”

            Yeah, they are maybe good for a single shot but I wouldn’t trust them and they’ll always require metal rounds and firing pins.

            “And there is no need for the overblown hysteria exhibited by the ‘news’ media about plastic guns.”

            Completely agree

            “After all, a well made toy gun would be adequate for hijacking an airplane unless perhaps there were air marshals on board.”

            Can be had for around $100 if not less, just remove the orange tip.

          2. Can be had for around $100 if not less, just remove the orange tip.

            Yes. My son has a “Colt 1911” airsoft gun that, except for the orange tip at the end of the barrel, could easily be mistaken for the real thing.

      3. I know, but as I understand it such a weapon cannot be sold.

        Being up there in age, I have decided not to burden my wife with things that could make her life difficult on my passing.

        1. Kathleen Smith Avatar
          Kathleen Smith

          It can be used even if not sold

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            If you’re manufacturing your own firearm with intent to use, I having a feeling you’re prohibited from owing one legally.

            Most, that manufacture their own, either through component kits or other methods don’t do so with intent to break the law. It requires too much time, money and effort.

          2. Yes. But if used by a law abiding person it will never be involved in a crime.

          3. ? I don’t follow. Of course it can be used. What would be the point of making one if it couldn’t be used? I use all my guns. That’s why I am a member of a gun club.

            Fortunately, I’ve never needed to use one for self defense. I hope that stays true throughout my lifetime.

          4. Kathleen Smith Avatar
            Kathleen Smith

            But you are not a criminal….

          5. Exactly. He is not a criminal, so his right to own, possess, build, and or safely use firearms should not be infringed.

          6. Kathleen Smith Avatar
            Kathleen Smith

            But if I was a criminal with intent, what would keep me from manufacturing a gun? No law, surely, as a criminal I could care less about the law and more about my intent. Why couldn’t I sell it with the intent of making money from other criminals? My intent was no to harm, but to make money. I may not make money, bout I have the intent to make money.

          7. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            It’s significantly cheaper to purchase a firearm through less than legal means, than it would be to manufacture one.

            You’re not manufacturing a handgun in your garage, well at least one that won’t explode. If you’re manufacturing a rifle, it’s not cheap.

            A complete AR platform upper is $250+, that’s not counting a lower, mags, sights and or ammo (which I assure you isn’t cheap).

            Even making something like a Luty, isn’t cheap and requires at least a semblance of knowledge of tools.

          8. You’re not manufacturing a handgun in your garage, well at least one that won’t explode.

            You can if you use the right materials, which I could get, and if you’re a good enough machinist, which I am not.

            😉

          9. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Watch out for those unlicensed drill presses, lathes, riveters, forges and milling machines.

            I think the price of a Bridgeport (used) dwarfs the cost of the firearm by a rather large factor.

          10. Lefty665 Avatar

            “But if I was a criminal with intent, what would keep me from manufacturing a gun?”

            Nothing, but nothing would keep you from stealing a gun or buying a black market gun either. Both of which would be a lot easier and cheaper than making one.

        2. You are 100% correct about selling a one-off weapon you manufacture at home. I’m not sure about passing it to another in your will.

      4. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        Nothing like a Luty, not that they are very good at range.

  5. Kathleen Smith Avatar
    Kathleen Smith

    So, if I can’t vote, how can I become POTUS?

    1. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 describes the requirements to become POTUS.

    2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Please, let’s not open that can of worms on this article.

    3. You could get elected, you just wouldn’t be able to vote for yourself…

  6. Under the 2nd Amendment? No, it is not unconstitutional to prohibit convicted felons from owning and possessing firearms.

    Under whatever part of the Constitution is being used to justify restoring voting rights to felons? Maybe. I hope not.

    Of course, if “progressives” were consistent in their exhortations about social justice and such then they would say yes, it is unconstitutional. After all, restoring felons’ constitutional rights is ‘fair’, right?

    A consistent, non-hypocritical, “progressive” argument would be that if felons are going to have their constitutional rights restored after serving their sentences, then all of their rights should be restored.

    If “progressives” want to restore the rights of felons they should be prepared to take the bad with the “good”.

    My personal opinion is that a person convicted of a violent felony or felonies should have his right to vote and his right to keep and bear arms permanently revoked, and I think there are sound constitutional and historical bases for doing so.

    1. Kathleen Smith Avatar
      Kathleen Smith

      But for how long? If I come out at 25, have no more incidents, at 70, I am not living in a safe neighborhood, my home was invaded, can’t I purchase a weapon to protect myself?

      1. For a violent felony? I gave you my personal opinion.

        Of course, the states have the right/power to set their own prohibitions, exceptions, paths to restoration, etc.

        I also think the 3rd Circuit was wrong regarding non-violent felons, and I hope the Supremes will remedy that mistake.

        1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          You seem to draw a distinction between violent and non-violent felons. So, why do you think the 3rd Circuit was wrong about saying that non-violent felons have a right under the 2nd Amendment to possess a firearm? By the way, Judge Hardiman was supposedly on Trump’s short list for appointment to the Supreme Court.

          1. I think it is constitutional to restrict the rights of non-violent felons. However, I do not think it should be a lifetime ban. That is the distinction I was attempting to make – apparently not successfully. I apologize for not being more clear.

            The important thing is, I think that if a felon’s rights are going to be restored, it is hypocritical to pick and choose which of them will be restored.

            RE: By the way, Judge Hardiman was supposedly on Trump’s short list for appointment to the Supreme Court.

            I do not care who appointed the man, nor do I care who was thinking about appointing him to what. If I think a court decision is wrong, then I will say so, regardless of who is on that court or who wrote the opinion. In this case, I did not pay attention to that judge’s name, and I would not have known who he is if I had.

          2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            I normally try to resist identifying who appointed a judge. I did so in this case because you expressing exasperation at “progressives” and I wanted to be sure that you knew that it was not a “progressive” judge advocating for the rights of felons.

          3. Understood.

        2. Kathleen Smith Avatar
          Kathleen Smith

          Too many variables make law messy. Good point though

      2. Governors may still issue pardons for exceptional cases such as the hypothetical one you presented.

        Or a path to restoration as mentioned by WayneS.

        1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          Pardon is a pretty high bar. A more straightforward, and more likely to succeed, approach would be to request the governor to restore your voting rights. If that is successful, a person could then petition the circuit court to approve possessing a firearm.

    2. Lefty665 Avatar

      Consider perhaps Woody Guthrie in his song “Pretty Boy Floyd”

      “As through this world you travel you’ll see lots of funny men
      Some will rob you with a 6 gun, some with a fountain pen”

      Is the one crime less violent than the other?

      1. Literarily, yes, one crime is more violent that another.

        From the standpoint of long-term harm to the victim, unless the 6-gun robbery victim was actually shot, there is little difference.

        1. DJRippert Avatar
          DJRippert

          Ban possession of pens by those convicted of financial crimes.

          1. Yes. After all, the penis mightier than the sword.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            That makes me chuckle, I watched “Indiana Jones: The Last Crusade” last night. Clearly, penis wasn’t in their quote but close enough for the girls I go with.

          3. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            That makes me chuckle, I watched “Indiana Jones: The Last Crusade” last night. Clearly, penis wasn’t in their quote but close enough for the girls I go with.

          4. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            That makes me chuckle, I watched “Indiana Jones: The Last Crusade” last night. Clearly, penis wasn’t in their quote but close enough for the girls I go with.

          5. Oh shoot, it looks like I left out a space between two words…

        2. Lefty665 Avatar

          I suppose the difference is that the one is violence and the other does violence. But isn’t that why we classify things as felonies, they do violence to others?

          I’ve got sympathy for the restoration of rights for non violent felons issue.

          OTOH, there’s also some logic that we as a society have categorized acts that do serious harm to others as felonies. I do believe we can do things that cause our subsequent rights to be abridged, and that the commission of the crime does not in itself have to be violent to qualify.

    3. Totally agree about violent felons having their right to have firearms revoked.

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        How about those convicted of a nonviolent felony?

        1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          Or those who have shown violent tendencies but have not yet been convicted of a felony? This felony criteria seems pretty arbitrary.

          1. Or those who have shown violent tendencies but have not yet been convicted of a felony?

            That runs into ‘prior restraint’ territory, which is very ‘dangerous’ ground from a constitutional standpoint.

            Also, I do not think the felony criteria is arbitrary. It defines the seriousness of one’s crimes and draws a hard line regarding the forfeiture (whether permanent or temporary) of one’s constitutional rights.

          2. Lefty665 Avatar

            Also goes to the presumption of innocence. Your felony conviction distinction is a good one, although the jerk in Texas shouldn’t be near anything that could be used as a weapon. Prohibit him from owning a baseball bat.

          3. Do you know why the state did not try him for the violent crimes he [allegedly] committed using a gun, instead of just the restraining order violation?

            In their anti-Bruen zeal, the media has done a good job of sensationalizing the overturning of that conviction, but I have seen no explanation as to why that was the only thing for which he was convicted.

          4. Lefty665 Avatar

            No I did not, thank you. He deserves that same presumption of innocence.

            Guess part of what we get into is inconsistencies in our judicial system. UVa shooter plea bargaining a gun charge to a misdemeanor falls into that category too.

          5. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            He was tried in federal court for violating the restraining order. It is a federal offense for anyone under a domestic violence restraining order to possess a firearm.

            He may have been tried in state court for state offenses, but the federal conviction is the one the Supreme Court has agreed to hear.

          6. Thank you.

          7. “This felony criteria seems pretty arbitrary.”

            Quite the opposite. It requires the charge to be adjudicated in court (with rules for evidence etc.) or admitted to by the defendant.

            It’s also binary. Someone either has or has not been convicted of a felony. “Violent tendencies” is much more subject to interpretation and could easily be abused.

          8. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Basically, then rights are retained by the violent offenders who can afford the best lawyers and cut the best plea deals. Removal of rights should be about protecting our country and its citizens not about punitive actions.

          9. Access to guns isn’t the worst of it. The OJ Simpsons of the world can even get away with murder at times.

            Perfection is rarely attained in anything created by or administered by humans.

          10. Lefty665 Avatar

            You talking Hunter Biden with this “best lawyers and cut the best plea deals?

          11. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            As that feeds your narrative, you can certainly consider the comparison valid.

          12. Lefty665 Avatar

            That was a doozy of a plea deal, and in cahoots with the DoJ. Fortunately it did not fly. Has to do with facts, not my narrative.

          13. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            So happy you agree that those who break the law should be prosecuted… even if they are the son of a president… or even if they are an ex-president…

          14. Basically, then rights are retained by the violent offenders who can afford the best lawyers and cut the best plea deals

            That is a separate and more widespread problem that is well worth discussing on another thread.

          15. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            I don’t know. This is a reality of our justice system. Surely it just shouldn’t be ignored when considering how to dispense justice.

          16. I agree, but that relates to the implementation of the law, not the content of the law.

            The subject of this thread has been how we think felonies should be punished, not whether felony prosecutions and convictions are fair and consistent.

            That is the separate issue to which I was referring.

          17. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            So the argument put forth by Nathan was that simple “felony” conviction for removing rights was not subject to abuse because it is adjudicated in court. My response is that it is just subject to another kind of abuse. Heck, the whole felony conviction criteria WAS subject to wholesale abuse in our not too distant past.

          18. You appear to be missing the point.

            For those who support the practice, a felony conviction is justification for the loss of certain rights. Whether or not the laws are being consistently enforced and people are being fairly prosecuted is a separate issue, and needs to be addressed.

            But it does not invalidate the logic behind drawing a line at felonies (very serious crimes) where forfeiture of rights is concerned.

            You don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

          19. You appear to be missing the point.

            For those who support the practice, a felony conviction is justification for the loss of certain rights. Whether or not the laws are being consistently enforced and people are being fairly prosecuted is a separate issue, and needs to be addressed.

            But it does not invalidate the logic behind drawing a line at felonies (very serious crimes) where forfeiture of rights is concerned.

            You don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater.

          20. I agree, but that relates to the implementation of the law, not the content of the law.

            The subject of this thread has been how we think felonies should be punished, not whether felony prosecutions and convictions are fair and consistent.

            That is the separate issue to which I was referring.

          21. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            That is essentially the case that has been accepted for argument by the Supreme Court–someone deprived of his right to possess a gun due to being subject to a restraining order.

            Now that I am on the subject, I realized that I forgot to include “red flag’” laws in my discussion. I doubt if there is historical precedent for those.

          22. I doubt if there is historical precedent for those.

            I also doubt it.

            There are strong arguments that ‘red flag’ laws violate both the 5th and 14th amendments, though. A restraining order is not a conviction.

            The goal is a good one – keeping guns out of the hands of dangerous people. But from a constitutional standpoint, a person is not dangerous until he has been adjudicated as such following a fair and speedy trial.

        2. I know someone in that situation and am leaning toward saying that his rights should be restored.

          This person committed a monetary crime when he was young and has since completely turned his life around. Nonetheless, he can’t own a gun or go hunting with his son, etc. Seems overly harsh and pointless.

          1. Kathleen Smith Avatar
            Kathleen Smith

            Again, the variables matter.

          2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            If the Governor has restored that person’s right to vote, he can then petition the court to allow him to possess a firearm. See Sec. 18.2-308.2. para. C.

    4. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      “Of course, if “progressives” were consistent in their exhortations about social justice and such then they would say yes, it is unconstitutional. After all, restoring felons’ constitutional rights is ‘fair’, right?”

      Honestly, it does seem wrong to me that just because one has been convicted of a felony, one automatically looses rights of any kind for life. Voting is clearly one that has been abused (at least historically). But why should a person convicted as a felon of a non-violent crime be denied the right to own a gun after they have served their time (or paid their restitution) simply because it was a felony? That honestly makes no sense – the same hold true for voting rights as well.

      1. We seem to agree on the basics. I still think it is constitutional to restrict the rights of felons, both violent and non-violent, but I do make a distinction, and I think it makes sense to provide a path whereby non-violent felons may have all of their rights restored.

        Violent felons can just suck it up, as far as I am concerned (or seek a pardon for exceptional circumstances as mentioned by Nathan).

        1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          I will leave the “constitutionality” of this up to others more qualified to make that call than me. As Dick noted, this has become very complex as of late. I simply think denying humans their rights based on an arbitrary line in the criminal justice system is wrong.

          Guns should be kept out of the hands of those who have shown themselves to be violent people. Period. I am not sure about voting, honestly. I do not view it as the same as guns. There is probably a good case to be made for losing one’s right to vote for non-violent offenses (think voter fraud, for instance) and I don’t think simply because one has been convicted of… say felony assault… one should necessarily lose one’s right to vote for life.

          In terms of a path to restoring rights, imo that should be automatic once one has paid the price for one’s transgression.

          1. In terms of a path to restoring rights, imo that should be automatic once one has paid the price for one’s transgression.

            I’m on the fence about that. I’m not sure a person convicted of a felony related to voter fraud should have his right to vote restored automatically as he exits prison.

            Perhaps such things could be handled by revising how we sentence people. “I hereby sentence you to ten year in prison, and 20 years loss of voting rights”. Would something like that be constitutional? That’s a rhetorical question – I do not expect you to know. I certainly do not.

            Of course, people convicted of financial crimes often have their access to computers restricted for a period of time after their release, so maybe…

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Of course, people convicted of financial crimes often have their access to computers restricted for a period of time after their release, so maybe…”

            The same goes with sex offenders.

            I am also of the opinion that perhaps it shouldn’t be automatic. That their sentence should include the length of the loss and at which time they can request their rights restored. They lost them through their own actions, they can take it upon themselves to request the restoration.

          3. They lost them through their own actions, they can take it upon themselves to request the restoration.

            Good point.

          4. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Well, that is essentially what we have now and it is just too open to abuse and is far too punitive. They paid their dues and they should be restored to full citizenship at that point.

          5. They paid their dues and they should be restored to full citizenship at that point.

            I understand your point, and it has merit, I just disagree. I think that for certain very serious crimes, punishment can and should extend to measures beyond confinement in prison.

          6. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Within your suggested approach, they would lose those rights as a part of sentencing (and may have to go through a very extensive process to have them restored). That would then be a part of “paying their dues”. Where the crime does not warrant such a harsh sentence, though, their rights would be automatically restored once the sentence is fulfilled.

          7. That works for me. Will you look at that. We discussed an issue back-and-forth civilly and have reached a point of agreement. Will wonders never cease? 😉

            Unfortunately, Mr. Hall-Sizemore says such a sentencing policy would be unconstitutional in Virginia.

          8. That works for me.

            Will you look at that. We discussed an issue back-and-forth civilly and have reached a point of agreement. Will wonders never cease? 😉

            Unfortunately, Mr. Hall-Sizemore says such a sentencing policy would be unconstitutional in Virginia.

          9. Lefty665 Avatar

            “Of course, people convicted of financial crimes often have their access to computers restricted for a period of time after their release, so maybe…” The same goes with sex offenders.

            Should they lose access to their penises? 🙂

          10. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Haha

          11. We laugh, but some sex offenders have been required by courts to take drugs that essentially make them lose access to their penis except as an excretory organ.

          12. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            Under the Virginia constitution, your hypothetical example would not be allowed.

          13. Well then perhaps that is what should be changed.

          14. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            That approach seems more fit for purpose. It is still an automatic restoration just situation-specific which is far better, imo.

          15. I agree. I think having a judge/jury specify the right(s) to be forfeited and the length of time for which the right(s) will be forfeited as part of a convicted felon’s sentence is a very fair way to go about it.

  7. Matt Adams Avatar
    Matt Adams

    First one must understand that the loss of firearm ownership is a new concept regarding felons, as it it didn’t exist prior to the 1968 GCA and that additional mechanisms to enforce that were added in 1994 with the Brady Bill.

    So for 179 years of our Country, it was legal for felons to own firearms after they had served their time.

    If someone is a non-violent felon, didn’t use a firearm in their previous conviction, following their incarceration and payment of debt of society, they should have their rights restored. Elsewise, you’re just being hypocritical.

    If someone uses a firearm in the commission of a crime and has been convicted of violent acts, they do no deserve their rights restored, regarding firearm ownership, as they’ve demonstrated they are not responsible enough to do so. They should also be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and face a minimum of 15 years behind bars for the use of a firearm in the commission of crime.

    1. Kathleen Smith Avatar
      Kathleen Smith

      Details of the conviction matter. I may be convicted of involuntary manslaughter, but I was beaten everyday for 10 years by my spouse.

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        “Details of the conviction matter. I may be convicted of involuntary manslaughter, but I was beaten everyday for 10 years by my spouse.”

        Still a violent crime and it would be doubly prohibited using a form 4473 as you should and would be seeking mental health treatment for your abuse.

        The taking of a life is a violent action, regardless of what has led up to that. Outside of justifiable homicide and war, you should not own a firearm.

      2. I would have a hard time convicting such a person, and would probably be removed from the jury pool if that were to be the scenario.

      3. I may be convicted of involuntary manslaughter, but I was beaten everyday for 10 years by my spouse.

        You won’t be if I am on your jury…

  8. Kathleen Smith Avatar
    Kathleen Smith

    We don’t think like criminals. We follow laws. Criminals, felons or not, do not. A felon may or may not wish to follow do not carry a gun once released. If he/she wishes to do so, he/she will regardless of the law.

    1. True enough. But when/if he is caught with a firearm, he can be charged and possibly convicted of another felony, potentially (once again) keeping a dangerous person off the streets for a few years.

      Of course, in Fairfax, Loudoun, etc., they’d charge him with “misdemeanor mopery with minimum malice” (or something similar) and he’d be back on the streets without bond in an hour or two.

    2. True enough. But when/if he is caught with a firearm, he can be charged and possibly convicted of another felony, potentially (once again) keeping a dangerous person off the streets for a few years.

      Of course, in Fairfax, Loudoun, etc., they’d charge him with “misdemeanor mopery with minimum malice” (or something similar) and he’d be back on the streets without bond in an hour or two.

  9. Is the question the OP asked really relevant? It seems that the current laws are ineffective. NYC and IL have strict gun control, but it seems like every Mafia/Organized crime member who wants a gun has one. Ditto for street thugs, bodega robbers and drug dealers. The only ones they seem to disarm are the law-abiding shop owners and citizens, who don’t have a chance.

    I bet the left and right have very different definitions of a right and what its source. Perhaps that’s the first thing we need to discuss.

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