GROVETON AND THE TIGER RIDERS

In the comments section following WHAT ARE THEY THINKING Groveton gives the League of Tiger Riders some things to think about. In this post we have taken several of Groveton’s key observations and re-sequenced them to put the Tiger Rider issue in the spotlight.

Lets start with Groveton saying:

“I agree with EMR about the wealth gap and the inevitable consequences of that gap.”

The Wealth Gap may not be the most obvious front burner driver of society dysfunction but failure to address it NOW may make all the other problems and their solutions moot.

The Tiger Riders who want to stimulate Supercapitalism took down the sign that read: “Welcome to those who want to join us and make a great nation-state.”

In its place they put up two signs:

One sign says: “Come here and get filthy rich, no commitment to hard work or citizen participation required.”

The other sign reads: “We have given up the whole idea of hard work and real creativity. We are into entertainment, consumption and speculation. If you want to work hard doing what you will never see anyone doing on TV you can be better off here than you can where you live now.” (And by the way we are leaving the back door unlocked so you can sneak in…)

When “The Shape of the Future” was written, population was headed towards stability with the long term prospect of slowly decreasing. Those two signs drafted in the 80s and erected in the 90s changed that big time.

Those at the bottom of the Ziggurat who do not know any way to get ahead but to work hard came in droves via the front door and the back door.

Those who had special skills or capital to invest also came in droves. (A lot of that capital came from selling oil and junk to US of A consumers.)

Those who are smart enough to have skills and capital recognize that US of A is like an athlete who has been too long on steroids – cheap energy. They are smart and want to be able to bail when things turn south.

Here Groveton adds an important observation about which I was not previously aware:

“For example, there is a trend among Americans of European extraction to apply for dual citizenship with the European country of their heritage. Of course, as a citizen in any EU country you can live in any other EU country.”

Keep your options open!

Groveton goes on: “America is aging. That’s a demographic fact.”

A caveat: The percentage of those who are over X is going up but there are a lot of young immigrants and even more children of immigrants – especially children of illegals who want to have children born in the US of A.

Back to Groveton: “However, the wealth is aging faster and this is a bigger issue. If you look at the percentage of national wealth held by Americans of different age levels – the older are getting richer relative to the younger over time.”

Very true. The children of “the greatest generation” are stealing from their children and grandchildren for reasons we spell out in “The Shape of the Future.” Former Interior Secretary Stewart Udall and his wife wrote a powerful apology to their grandchildren on this topic. It is worth a read – look it up in the 31 March High Country News.

Groveton observes: “The biggest socioeconomic change is the shift in wealth to the elderly (or relatively elderly). The elderly retire, they stop getting salaries, they have more flexibility as to where (and how) they live.”

Caveat: With the current downturn and hemorrhaging of retirement funds a lot of the older folks will be working a lot longer. Since one of the few real benefits of technology over the past three decades is that those at the top of the Ziggurat are living longer and are healthier, they can work longer too.

Groveton says: “Bottom line – it’s not the Top 5%ers vs. the RHTCs. It is the Americans aged 20 – 40 vs. Americans aged 41 – 60.

Caveat: It is not either / or it is both / and. Recall all those “AOL millionaires” and all those who coasted through college and got the big bucks right out of school.

Here comes the key input from Groveton: “And the capital owned by those in retirement or close to retirement is mobile. So, first you have a wide wealth gap.”

“Then, 51% of the population elects a demigod. Then, the elderly wealthy move their capital (and, perhaps, themselves) to countries that don’t have a demigod as president / prime minister.”

“Then, the US of A is done.”

A very powerful argument for “minding the gap” – as they say in London – and for why we harp on the Wealth Gap issue.

One more caveat on this topic: Elderly and Mobile – especially those who have spent their lives relying on the Autonomobile for Mobility and Access – do not go together.

Some will move money off shore but those are in the top 5% and they rely on ‘money managers.’
As we will note in a review of “How to Build a Village” this demographic may be a key market for a Lewenz / Parallel Village.

Groveton asks: “Tell me where I am wrong here.”

Not at all “wrong,” just some caveats.

Lets go on to another prediction of Groveton’s:

“I predict that the question of proposing a new constitutional convention will begin to be asked of candidates to the state legislature in many states.”

Darrell — Chesapeake says it would not do any good because the Elephant Clan and the Donkey Clan would control the process. Right on Darrell.

That is why humans have to think of Fundamental Transformation in governance structure if citizens are preserve democracies with market economies.

What kind of Fundamental Transformations? Well, just the sort the founding fathers said would be needed: Changes to match changed conditions.

The first one? Evolve the governance so that it is congruent with the organic components of human settlement pattern.

Finally Groveton says: “I wonder about human settlement patterns being a big part of the solution.”

Groveton you need to give serious thought to the economic, social and physical impact of human settlement pattern – there is a book on the topic….

Groveton goes on to suggest that “Beyond that, I believe the wealth gap needs to be solved long before a more rational settlement plan can be implemented.”

Grave settlement pattern Myth: It will take a long time to change human settlement patterns. More on that in THE USE AND MANAGEMENT OF LAND

But will citizens change human settlement patterns with backhoes?

Later on in the comments Larry Gross says:

“No one.. I repeat no one is going to get rid of backhoes and go back to men with shovels even if fuel toes to $10 a gallon.”

Since we have far more land devoted to urban land uses than there is a potential market at sustainable patterns and densities, most of the “development” will be REDEVELOPMENT.

There will be a need for some backhoes but more shovels for two reasons:

First, the best way to solve the Affordable and Accessible Housing Crisis is with large doses of sweat equity.

Second, vast amounts of energy has been wasted on backhoes because of cheap energy.

When I was managing the development of community infrastructure I would often observe the following:

Three able bodied men (this was a while ago) would observe an unanticipated problem in laying a pipe, building a road or installing a storm or sanitary sewer.

They would discuss the problem for a while and then radio the office (this was a while ago >:) and the office would dispatch a lowboy with a bigger backhoe.

After hours of waiting and driving and unloading / loading and minutes of digging the problem was solved.

It could have been done by those three in an hour with shovels and the equipment they already had on the job.

Recall that second sign by the Supercapitalists about not wanting to do the work any more? $10 fuel will change that.

We will deal with inelasticity again soon.

EMR


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Comments

  1. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    EMR has obviously never dug a hole.

    “Walking does more than driving to cause global warming, a leading environmentalist has calculated.

    Food production is now so energy-intensive that more carbon is emitted providing a person with enough calories to walk to the shops than a car would emit over the same distance. The climate could benefit if people avoided exercise, ate less and became couch potatoes. Provided, of course, they remembered to switch off the TV rather than leaving it on standby.

    The sums were done by Chris Goodall, campaigning author of “How to Live a Low-Carbon Life”

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/science/article2195538.ece

    RH

  2. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “We have given up the whole idea of hard work “

    I know, my wife was complaning about farmhands recently: “You can’t find anyone who wants to work anymore.”

    “Margaret”, I said, “why do you suppose it is we are looking for farm hands? It is so we won’t have to work hard.”

    Giving up the idea of hard work sounds fine to me. What the heck, we are overconsuming as it is, how about if we overconsume a little more time off?

    RH

  3. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Of course, as a citizen in any EU country you can live in any other EU country.”

    The easy way to get rid of foreigners is to abolish borders, which is what the EU is up to.

    We have the INS instead.

    RH

  4. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I’m flabbergasted.

    “EMR has never dug a hole”

    correct.. unless one means the figurative kind in making an argument…

    “Second, vast amounts of energy has been wasted on backhoes because of cheap energy.”

    only if you want to re-invent the concept of “coolies”.

    the next time.. some place has to dig up an old sewer pipe 15 feet down and replace it… we should pay for EMR’s travel expenses to witness that phenomena.

    I’ll stipulate to the presence of shovels but I’m betting the jar of pennies that there will also be mucho mechanized ..horror of horrors.. fuel-burning equipment in attendance also..

    The only downside to this is that it has the potential for a real kerfuffle if EMR insists that the worker use hand tools when they fire up the machinery.

    Garbage removal? are we going to be using bicycle rickshaws to handle the garbage of 1000 people per acre density?

    wait.. no .. I got that one.. the garbage goes into the furnaces that create electricity for the building.

    Whew.. that was close…

    How about getting tomatoes and avacados to these folks?

    are we bringing them in on handcarts from the hinterlands merrily rolling down grass-lined dirt paths running next to babbling brooks?

    come on EMR.. admit it.. last night you got into something really exotic that felt really good while you were under it’s influence and your fingers got onto that keyboard before you realized what was happening…

    🙂

  5. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “You want to create jobs? Just ban all modern farming equipment and force everyone to grow their own food. Rather than 5 people being able to grow the food for every 100, it will take 90…. This would create millions of jobs, but I don’t see many voters getting behind this one.”

    http://commontragedies.wordpress.com/category/green-collar-jobs/

  6. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Affordable and accessible housing — not at Tysons Corner. The landowners have discovered that the combination of high land and construction costs at Tysons makes affordable or workforce housing unattractive. The Task Force may, accordingly, shove all such housing to a single spot at Tysons (a ghetto, so to speak) or even move it outside the Tysons Corner area. Thus, we will still have large segments of the Tysons Corner workforce commuting, many by car.

    Fairfax County, award-winning, dysfunctional government at it best!

    TMT

  7. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    better watch out TMT, the next thing you know .. Tysons is going to be on someone’s top 10 best places to live and do things…

    by the way… where EXACTLY is the EMR top 10 list?

    wait.. I know.. it was covered in Chapter something in the “As the settlement pattern evolves” episodes.

    🙂

    just KIDDING EMR……

  8. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Larry, the worst thing about the Tysons fiasco, IMO, is that the Task Force could have taken the existing Comp Plan and tried to improve it. There was room for some urban development at Tysons with or without rail. But that would not have been at ridiculously high FARs. Like virtually everything in Fairfax County, the process was hijacked by the lower elements of the real estate industry and their agents.

    TMT

  9. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    EMR:

    Believe it or not, I actually try to understand what you are saying. I figure that I’ve learned a few languages in my day so getting proficient in Risse-glish ought to be achievable. For example, I am kind of getting the unit, dooryard, neighborhood, cluster hierarchy. I use the glossary, I read the articles. However, I never seem to get throught an entire post without some enigma leaping into my head. Here’s the question from this post. You wrote:

    “Grave settlement pattern Myth: It will take a long time to change human settlement patterns. More on that in THE USE AND MANAGEMENT OF LAND”.

    What is THE USE AND MANAGEMENT OF LAND? I’ve searched the Rebellion archives and found references to this tome but cannot find the treatise itself. While I am sure that I’m not yet ready to “snatch the pebble from your hand” I would be very interested in understanding how the reshaping of society can be done quickly. Perhaps you can direct me (electronically speaking) to the fountain of wisdom known as THE USE AND MANAGEMENT OF LAND.

    All kidding aside – I am keen to read how trillions of dollars of brick and mortar investment can be quickly remade.

  10. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    “When I was managing the development of community infrastructure I would often observe the following:

    Three able bodied men (this was a while ago) would observe an unanticipated problem in laying a pipe, building a road or installing a storm or sanitary sewer.

    They would discuss the problem for a while and then radio the office (this was a while ago >:) and the office would dispatch a lowboy with a bigger backhoe.

    After hours of waiting and driving and unloading / loading and minutes of digging the problem was solved.

    It could have been done by those three in an hour with shovels and the equipment they already had on the job.”.

    Isn’t that because the men you were observing were getting paid by the hour? They had no economic incentive to pick up their shovels and dig. Rather, they had incentive to “radio” the office and wait for new equipment.

    Want to win the Nobel Prize in Economics? Come up with a theory like this:

    “Wages don’t fall enough during recessions to prevent unemployment from rising. If labor demand shifts inward, this lowers wages. But because wages have fallen, the probability of ‘shirking’ (workers not exerting effort) has risen. If employment levels are to be maintained, through a sufficient lowering of wages, workers will be less productive than before through the shirking effect. As a consequence, in the model wages do not fall enough to maintain employment levels at the previous state, because firms want to avoid excessive shirking by their workers. So, unemployment must rise during recessions, because wages are kept ‘too high’.”.

    It’s actually the “Shapiro-Stiglitz model”.

    The “shirking effect”…

    The less you pay someone, the more they shirk. Therefore, in a downturn, employers offer jobs with lower and lower wages because there is a big supply of labor relative to demand. But lower wages induce higher shirking. At some point, the employees take to 100% shirking and then the employer gets no economic value.

    Stiglitz calls it a model.

    I call it VDOT.

  11. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Groveton said:

    “Isn’t that because the men you were observing were getting paid by the hour? They had no economic incentive to pick up their shovels and dig. Rather, they had incentive to “radio” the office and wait for new equipment.”

    Actually some of them were subcontractors / owners of businesses and / or managers that got bonuses based on performance. It is just the way contruction is done with cheap energy.

    I forgot about an even better example. I needed to clear two sites for small (1,200 sq ft) buildings on comparable wooded sites.

    One I did with “equipment” a loader with a rake etc.

    The second I did with hand tools and three college students.

    It cost half as much to do it by hand. And there were almost no restoration cost to stablaize the site.

    I do not appreciate the implication (by others, not Groveton) that I have never used hand tools.

    I stablalized a sugar mill on a small Caribbean Island that involved thousands of wheelbarrow loads of dirt and stone.

    My father and I built a house, sewerage system and large cistern all with hand tools.

    When you do not know what you are talking about it is better to keep your mouth shut.

    EMR

  12. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Groveton:

    Sorry, my bad:

    What is THE USE AND MANAGEMENT OF LAND?

    I forgot to note “Forthcoming.” USE AND MANAGEMENT is the fifth of five Foundation Documents in Volume I of TRILO-G.

    I have searched for the place I talked about the three myths to which I refer but cannot find it.

    Soon…

    “All kidding aside – I am keen to read how trillions of dollars of brick and mortar investment can be quickly remade.”

    You put your finger on the cause of the myth:

    It is human settlement pattern we are talking about, not building or infrastructure settlement pattern.

    What I was searching for was a writeup I did on the Core of Toronto. In the late 80s there was a huge overbuild of offices in the CBD (or Centroid).

    Within months several were converted to successful condos. Within less than two years there was real Balance in the Centroid. They had a model in the Bloor Villages and it was also applied to the Lake Front.

    It is all a matter of understanding the organic components and then adding what is needed to create Balance.

    That sometimes requires construction but not always.

    Since there is already far more urban land than we need — or can support — it is a matter of taking the structures and adapting them, infilling them, etc.

    I promised once to tell you how to create a Balanced Neighborhood (or was it a Village?) in you part of Great Falls but I never got around to it… Sorry.

    EMR

  13. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “They would discuss the problem for a while and then radio the office (this was a while ago >:) and the office would dispatch a lowboy with a bigger backhoe.

    After hours of waiting and driving and unloading / loading and minutes of digging the problem was solved. “

    Yes, there is such a thing as using the appropriate technology for the job at hand, and sometimes that means hand tools. Appropriate technology on a small Caribbean isand is often a lot different than here, and clearing brush is a lot different from digging a foundaton for a 1200 sq ft building.

    It’s possible there is something here we don’t know about.

    If the company sent a bigger backhoe, maybe it was actually needed – say to move a boulder that wouldn’t fit the smaller bucket, or needed more power.

    Maybe they discovered something that looked like an Indian artifact, and the rules say to call it in.

    Maybe they needed to shut off a gas line or power cable.

    Maybe there was a question about the drawing: they had a three ft. manhole on site but the drawing called for a six.

    Maybe they needed the backhoe, because you cannot climb into a hole unless you have a digging box, to prevent collapse.

    There are rules about everything nowadays.

    Ususally, the people doing the job, know the most about it – even if it doesn’t appear that way from the outside. One thing I do know about digging holes is that more power is almost always better – even if it happens to be manpower.

    I saw a digging job in Reston a few years ago. I figure there must have been buried optical cable there, or something, because the contractor must have had 500 laborers there digging up a mile of streetside – by hand.

    They all appeared to be latino.

    RH

  14. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “through a sufficient lowering of wages, workers will be less productive than before through the shirking effect.”

    I saw this when I moved from a family run printing business in Massachusetts to a large commercial one in the South.

    The large business had all the bad attributes of a paternalistic oligarcrchy, and they had a habit of hiring the cheapest, untrained, labor available, with predictable results.

    The small business did a million dollars in business with four people, and the large one barely did ten million with fifty people.

    The rework was astonishing. It was a real eye-opener for me, especially since I was one of the last to handle the product, and I would frequently find errors that had to be sent back.

    RH

  15. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    If EMR felt insulted, I’d apologize but if you are going to bury a 1/2 mile of sewer line down 10 feet – you are going to use mechanized machinery …….

    There are some jobs that can/should be done by manual labor but there are many others that if not done by mechanized equipment would require dozens, hundreds of laborers at greater expense and conditions less safe for humans than equipment.

    I just don’t buy the apparent implication that we are seeing the nadir of mechanization and that more balanced communities will revert us back to manual labor and away from mechanization.

    Perhaps that is my perception and not the implication that I thought I was hearing – so some clarification to bring me up short especially if I am wrong/misinformed/ignorant/etc.

    and let us not forget that dense areas are similarly not possible right now without “burning fuel”.

    The fact that we burn it remotely at power plants that produce the electricity that runs the machines that a city/urban/NUR area needs to be acknowledged.

    Until something changes – NURs …WILL BURN FUEL

    I do “get” the essence of the concept of more efficient, “smarter” settlement patterns.. but I think some of the in’s and out’s are not well thought-through to the point where it’s clear that they are/will the right path ….

    and when I think I hear advocacy of more manual labor and less mechanization as a part of this evolution my skepticism alarm goes off – strongly

    If the view is that mechanization is not compatible with balanced communities in general.. let’s say so outright or flat reject any implication of it.

    for me.. if the ultimate balanced community needs no mechanization then I’ll need a major attitude adjustment to see the beauty of that vision.

  16. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    EMR has some ideas, I just don’t know how he stays in business with the salesman he has.

    RH

  17. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    NOTE TO LARRY ON ENERGY, MECHANIZATION AND TECHNOLOGY

    If EMR felt insulted, I’d apologize

    THANK YOU

    but if you are going to bury a 1/2 mile of sewer line down 10 feet – you are going to use mechanized machinery …….

    THAT WAS YOUR ASSUMPTION, NOT MINE AND HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE EXAMPLES I PROVIDED.

    FOR NOW THE ½ MILE TEN FEET DEEP ILLUSTRATION IS CORRECT.

    BUT ONLY IF CITIZENS FOSTER FUNDAMENTAL TRANSFORMATION SOON. IN THAT CASE THERE WILL ENERGY FOR PROJECTS SUCH AS THIS – WHEN ACTUALLY NEEDED – FOR THE FORESEEABLE FUTURE.

    IF THERE IS NOT FUNDAMENTAL TRANSFORMATION AND CHANGE DOES NOT COME SOON THERE WILL NOT BE THE RESOURCES FOR THIS SORT OF DIG UNDER MOST CIRCUMSTANCES.

    There are some jobs that can/should be done by manual labor but there are many others that if not done by mechanized equipment would require dozens, hundreds of laborers at greater expense and conditions less safe for humans than equipment.

    TRUE, WITH THE ABOVE CAVEAT

    I just don’t buy the apparent implication that we are seeing the nadir of mechanization and that more balanced communities will revert us back to manual labor and away from mechanization.

    THAT IS YOUR SPIN NOT EMR’s WORDS OR BELIEF.

    THE SPIN APPEARS INTENDED TO DISCREDIT OUR PERCEPTIONS AND TRIVIALIZE THE ENORMITY OF THE TASK AHEAD.

    Perhaps that is my perception and not the implication that I thought I was hearing – so some clarification to bring me up short especially if I am wrong/misinformed/ignorant/etc.

    THAT IS COMPLETELY YOUR SPIN / PERCEPTION

    and let us not forget that dense areas are similarly not possible right now without “burning fuel”.

    TRUE

    The fact that we burn it remotely at power plants that produce the electricity that runs the machines that a city/urban/NUR area needs to be acknowledged.

    ACTUALLY THIS IS NOT TRUE. WE WASTE HALF THE ENERGY WE BURN TO GENERATE ELECTRICTIY IN REMOTE LOCATIONS.

    MODULAR INTEGRATED UTILITY SYSTEMS (MIUS) AT THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND VILLAGE SCALE WERE FEASIBLE IN 1973 / 1975 WHEN WE WORKED ON THEM TO SUPPORT PLANNED NEW COMMUNITIES.

    AT TODAY’S ENERGY PRICES THEY WOULD BE SLAM DUNKS BUT FOR THE FACT THAT BUSINESS AS USUAL MAKES MORE MONEY IN THE SHORT RUN FROM BIG POWER PLANTS, BIG TRANSMISSION LINES AND GUARANTEED PROFITS.

    MIUS WOULD WORK WONDERS IN A LEWENZ / PARALLEL VILLAGE. MIUS WILL, HOWEVER, REQUIRE INVESTMENT, AND CONSTRUCTION AS GROVETON SUGGESTS.

    Until something changes – NURs …WILL BURN FUEL

    NUR’s WILL BURN FUEL BUT COULD BURN FAR, FAR LESS, AND THUS APPROACH SUSTAINABLE CONSUMPTION VIA RENEWABLE SOURCES WITH FAR LESS EFFORT THAN BUSINESS AS USUAL, 12 ½ PERCENTERS AND THE TIGER RIDERS (EACH IS DIFFERENT) THINK.

    I do “get” the essence of the concept of more efficient, “smarter” settlement patterns.. but I think some of the in’s and out’s are not well thought-through to the point where it’s clear that they are/will the right path ….

    A LOT HAVE BEEN THOUGHT THROUGH BUT THOSE THAT HAVE GIVEN THEM THOUGHT ARE TOO OFTEN TREATED LIKE FOOLS BY SMART A___S – TO USE LARRY GROSS TERMINOLOGY.

    and when I think I hear advocacy of more manual labor and less mechanization as a part of this evolution my skepticism alarm goes off – strongly

    THAT FROM SOMEONE WHO LIKES PADDLE A BOAT.

    I AND OTHERS LIKE TO USE HAND TOOLS. GARDENING BOOKS AND THE ANNALS OF PSYCHOLOGY AND PSYCHIATRY ARE FULL OF STORIES ABOUT THE JOY AND BENEFITS OF USING ONES HANDS.

    THERE IS A BIGGER ISSUE. AS WE NOTED FROM TIME TO TIME, THE SECOND MOST IMPORTANT ELEMENT OF SOLVING THE AFFORDABLE AND ACCESSIBLE HOUSING CRISIS IS SWEAT EQUITY.

    THE FIRST IS FUNCTIONAL HUMAN SETTLEMENT PATTERNS.

    If the view is that mechanization is not compatible with balanced communities in general.. let’s say so outright or flat reject any implication of it.

    THAT AGAIN IS YOUR SPIN APPARENTLY IN A VAIN ATTEMPT TO EXCUSE YOUR OWN PRIOR ACTIONS.

    for me.. if the ultimate balanced community needs no mechanization then I’ll need a major attitude adjustment to see the beauty of that vision.

    BALANCED COMMUNITIES AND ALL THE OTHER COMPONENTS OF FUNCTIONAL AND SUSTAINABLE HUMAN SETTLEMENT PATTERNS WILL TAKE ADVANTAGE OF TECHNOLOGY AND MECHANIZATION – IF FUNDAMENTAL TRANSFORMATION TAKES PLACE SOON.

    IF NOT, IT WILL BE AS EINSTEIN SAID ABOUT THE WAR AFTER A NUCLEAR WAR – STICKS AND STONES.

    Sorry for the shouting.

    Also this is the last time I will post a response to comments that appear to be intentionally spun to detract from the intent of the post.

    EMR

  18. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I think we can agree there is a time for appropriate technology like shovels and wheelbarrows, and a time for appropriate HP.

    But it comes down to the same issue as what is needless to-ing and fro-ing, and what is fair locational cost of services.

    A lot of people will have different ideas of fair, needless, and appropriate than EMR. Nobody likes waste, but it is just as wasteful to overemphasize manual labor as it is to use a backhoe to dig a posthole.

    The way to reduce waste is to train people on what to look for, and how to evaluate trade offs, not push some one-sided agenda.

    RH

  19. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    In another attempt to save fuel, there is this:

    “The state Legislature has approved another option for Ohioans looking to spend less on gasoline.

    A massive spending bill that cleared the Ohio House and Senate on Tuesday includes language opening Ohio roads to electric vehicles that resemble small cars with only three wheels.

    Rechargeable three-wheelers such as the Zap Xebra and the Myers Motors NmG — which stands for “No more Gas” — are currently illegal in Ohio. The legislation would allow them to be registered as motorcycles.”

    Can I just put “Farm Tags” on it?

    RH

  20. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “vast amounts of energy has been wasted on backhoes because of cheap energy.”

    Cargo ships burn far more fuel than airplanes.

    Where do backhoes fit on that spectrum, and what constitutes vast amounts of energy wasted on backhoes?

    Had we “saved” that energy, what else would we have done with it that would have been less wasteful?

    RH

  21. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I need to understand how the pieces fit together here.

    For a time, I thought that the evolution towards more optimal settlement patterns would be enhanced by the use of more technology and more efficient technologies…

    … i.e. more efficient, less polluting cars and transportation systems in general.

    more efficient heat pumps – but heat pumps none-the-less or something equivalent…

    better water/seweage treatment..

    more efficient, less energy consumptive lights, refrigeration, etc, et al.

    and of course, you can’t lay steel for buildings – whether new or redevelopment without mechanized machinery either…

    re: ….”WILL TAKE ADVANTAGE OF TECHNOLOGY AND MECHANIZATION – IF FUNDAMENTAL TRANSFORMATION TAKES PLACE SOON. “

    huh?

    I don’t see Fundamental Change as an all or nothing proposition.

    It’s not that we have oil today and none tomorrow and then our systems all fail and civilization goes belly up.

    It’s a gradual drawing down of oil.. matched by innovation and technology to squeeze more energy out than we do now.. to accomplish the same functions needs but perhaps in different and more efficient ways.

    I don’t see this as incompatible with more optimal settlement patterns at all but rather part and parcel of an evolutionary process that NEEDS technology/mechanization to succeed.

    if fact, necessary

    I’d go so far to say that more optimal settlement patterns are not going to be possible without full use of available technologies and mechanization…

    multi-vehicle systems – integral to balanced communities are heavy-duty industrial, fuel-burning machines.

    we want them to become more and more efficient and consume less energy but as long as those wheels are made out of steel and need electricity to move them.. urbanized settlements will need them.

    In closing. I note the big kerfuffle over Tyson’s rail – tunnel or not…

    either way.. you need major machines to build that critter…in fact, the tunnel supporters point out that the modern mechanized “moles” make tunneling much more feasible than before.

    tunneling.. is a key concept to many urban areas also.. and we do it with machines not laborers….

    where have I gone wrong here on my thinking?

  22. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Gee, EMR, when you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.

    RH

  23. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Larry Gross said:

    “re: ….”WILL TAKE ADVANTAGE OF TECHNOLOGY AND MECHANIZATION – IF FUNDAMENTAL TRANSFORMATION TAKES PLACE SOON. “

    “huh?

    “I don’t see Fundamental Change as an all or nothing proposition.”

    OK LARRY, ONE LAST TIME:

    WE ARE TAKING ABOUT THE TRAJECTORY OF MASS OVERCONSUMPTION AND DYSFUNCTIONAL SETTLEMENT PATTERNS. YOU KNOW THAT. IT IS NOT ANY OF THE EITHER / ORs THAT YOU TOSS OUT. ATTEMPTS TO TRIVIALIZE DO NOT INFORM THE DISCUSSION ANY MORE THAN THE SNIDE COMMENTS OF THE TIGER RIDERS.

    THERE IS OF COURSE, PUNCTUATED EQUILIBRIUM IN ECONOMIC, SOCIAL AND PHYSICAL SYSTEMS AND IF THE UNSUSTAINABLE TRAJECTORY IS PUSHED TOO FAR THERE CAN BE CATASTROPHIC FAILURE.

    YOU MAY RECALL THAT ABOVE WE SAID:
    “… this is the last time I will post a response to comments that appear to be intentionally spun to detract from the intent of the post.”

    You comment is exactly what we were talking about and this time we mean it.

    EMR

  24. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    all due respect – I’m not “intentionally spinning”

    I’m openly questioning the premise.

    …”IF FUNDAMENTAL TRANSFORMATION TAKES PLACE SOON. “

    that is a mouthful and unless it is more fully explained and justified, it’s sorta hanging out there…

    first I don’t know what is meant by the phrase “Fundamental Transformation” (and I’m not alone).

    Second, I don’t know what “soon” means.

    third, i don’t know what the implication is – if it does not happen soon.

    the whole thing is just sort of hanging there.. crying for more explanation…

    sorry to ruffle feathers here

  25. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Let’s cut to the chase.

    Is Fundamental Transformation tied to the price of gasoline?

    If it is not.. what are the forces that affect it.

    If it is ..then should we not expect those countries with gasoline twice or three times our prices to be the one to start to change first?

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