Sinai Elementary School, Halifax

by Dick Hall-Sizemore

Several commentators on this blog have frequently taken issue with the approach of the Virginia Dept. of Education’s (VDOE) Code of Student Conduct and its emphasis on avoiding suspensions. They often quote passages from that document without specifying what is wrong with them. Presumably, the wrongheadedness of the approach should be apparent to all.

The latest such criticism was in a recent article by Jim Sherlock. He complained particularly that recent guides and documents on the subject of student conduct issued by VDOE did not refer to the “evidence-based techniques offered by the federal study Reducing Behavior Problems in the Elementary School Classroom.” However, after perusing that document, it seems to me that the recommendations put forth in the report are largely compatible with the approaches recommended by VDOE. For example, here are two recommendations of the report:

  1. We recommend that teachers carefully observe the conditions in which the problem behavior is likely to occur and not occur. Teachers then can use that information to tailor effective and efficient intervention strategies that respond to the needs of the individual student within the classroom context.
  2. We recommend that teachers actively teach students socially- and behaviorally-appropriate skills to replace problem behaviors using strategies focused on both individual students and the whole classroom.

Compare those recommendations with the VDOE language quoted by Mr. Sherlock:

Developing positive relationships with students that are built on mutual trust and respect have been shown to demonstrate some of the highest positive effects on student achievement and behavior. Developing relationships requires ‘specific skills of the teacher such as the skills of listening, empathy, caring and having a positive regard for others.’

The two documents seem to be on the same wavelength. By the way, nowhere in the federal report could I find even a mention of suspension from school.

Virginia is not an outlier in its effort to avoid school suspensions. As reported by The Wall Street Journal, Dallas, Texas, (hardly a “woke” city) schools used to suspend misbehaving students. Now, those students are sent to “reset centers,” where they talk with counselors about the misbehavior that led to their disciplinary problems. Elementary schools in the city start the day with a 45-minute social-emotional learning session.

My only foray into teaching at the K-12 level taught me a lesson about looking beyond a student’s misbehavior to try to determine its cause. It was a long time ago, the summer after I graduated from college, when I was waiting to go off to basic training. I got a job in my home county of Halifax, teaching in a special summer “enrichment” program for elementary school students. I don’t remember anything about what we went over in class, how many students I had, or any of the students themselves. That is, with one exception. I remember Frank.

Frank was about 7 or 8 years old. It was hard not to like him.  He was bright, funny, and could be charming. He could also be infuriating. He often talked out in class, was “sassy,” and often would not do what he was told. In short, he was not mean, but he often went out of his way to defy my authority.  I was flabbergasted. I had never encountered a child defying an adult this way. I did not know how to handle him. At times, I felt like smacking him, but I was able to control myself. It was not until near the end of the program that I learned that Frank’s father had left the family. The kid was acting out in class in order to get attention from one of the few male adults in his life. If I had had the training on getting beyond his misbehavior to what was troubling him, we both could have had a better experience. As it was, I do remember our parting on good terms.


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Comments

60 responses to “Frank and Me”

  1. walter smith Avatar
    walter smith

    Anecdotally proving the biggest issue nobody wants to admit…
    Illegitimacy
    Paying kids to have babies and absolving sperm donor fathers of responsibility.
    Success formula – graduate high school, get a job, get married, have children – in that order. Something like an 80% chance of having a middle-class life.
    The educational deficits, the behavior problems, the likelihood of going to jail…all tied to lack of father in the home.

    1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      … which is further tied to the so-called “War on Drugs” and other systemic racism in our society..,

      1. walter smith Avatar
        walter smith

        The true believer reveals his religion!
        The Church of Systemic Racism!
        How did black families succeed formerly??
        Wouldn’t it have been impossible before all the help?
        And your Trollness, illegitimacy is a black and white problem.
        Black illegitimacy has gone from about 20% to 70% thanks to the government “help.” And white illegitimacy has gone from about 5% to 20% or more, with all that “help.”
        You also deny human agency, but you do you…

        1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          “illegitimacy…”

          So to a Conservative, a single woman is carrying a legitimate human being (i.e., a fetus) which once born becomes an illegitimate human being … you do you….

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            It’s just that by creating more bastards, they think people will stop calling them bastards. We just have to add adjectives, real and ignorant.

          2. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            If you Lefties actually knew anything, you’d still likely be stupid.
            Illegitimacy refers to a status, not the person. The child born is a human being, created in the image of God. The child has by bad choice of the mother, and likely with full hope by the sperm donor father, into less than ideal circumstances.
            There are ways to not have that happen. I guess systemic racism causes the mother to have sex with dirtball, loser sperm donors who would not be a good father, or to not use birth control, even rhythm!, or not insist on marriage first (which is another one of those old-fashioned things that made sense).
            Success formula. Not that hard.

          3. Kathleen Smith Avatar
            Kathleen Smith

            Walter, your language offends me.

          4. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Not sure what I can do about that…
            Not going to not say it, since I believe it is true…

          5. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            “…Illegitimacy refers to a status, not the person…”

            It refers (in Conservative lore) to the status OF the person… so they understand their place…

          6. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Nice try Troll. You do not know what Conservatives think. You project like an I-Max

          7. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            To be precise, Conservatives actually do not think.

          8. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Glad your I-max still works…

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          re: how did black folks do “before”?

          You mean like during Jim Crow or WWII where we still had segregation or during Massive Resistance?

          They did better then?

          in whose make-believe world Walter??

          and promiscuity – I’m curious. Do you think poor folks are more promiscuities than rich folks? So that’s what causes that illegitimacy?

          1. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            As usual, not able to make a coherent point. Sometimes Larry, in the face of real discrimination, black families climbed out of poverty. You prove the point. They held the family together. They did not make excuses. They used human agency to succeed. Now, you Lefties are the racists, actually thinking minorities are incapable of using human agency to end up in better situations, so you blame bad choices and bad behavior on systemic racism, when in our current society, which has been incredibly transformed as to racial discrimination, their ancestors, who knew the old real racial discrimination, would marvel and would be ashamed of the destructive behavior. Larry Two Note – SCIENCE! and RACISM!

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      free birth control?

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Abortion?

  2. Kathleen Smith Avatar
    Kathleen Smith

    Dick, I have had lots and lots of kids like Frank in my classroom. I don’t disagree with you, but there are kids that are Walter who stays in his cell phone even when asked to put it away, has had numerous referrals to the office for everything but being respectful and responsible, has never completed assignments in my class or other classes, has a mom and a dad, and appears to bully everyone in class. Other kids are there to learn. He is not. He doesn’t want to learn and he makes sure you know it. Correct, suspension will not help, but what will?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      But you wouldn’t kick him out of school altogether – right?

      Teaching is a tough job, no question, and not everyone is equipped to be a teacher,

      Parents are the other way a teacher can be slice and diced.

      Now apparently, some advocates of Charter schools believe that such disruptive kids can be booted – not put on the streets – but put back in public schools for public school teachers to deal with while the Charter School teacher is rid of him.

      good concept?

      1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
        James C. Sherlock

        For the 100th time, charter schools are public schools.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Yep but don’t operate the same as other public schools including an ability to boot kids that standard public schools cannot.

          1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            “Standard” public schools can and do “boot kids”. It is called expulsion. Many of the school districts have alternative schools for such kids.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Yes they do despite what some here imply that they don’t and continue to let them disrupt classes for others.

            What do Charter schools do with disruptive kids different from conventional public schools?

            Do they expel like conventional public schools do ?

            what “rules” are “relaxed” for Charters?

          3. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Nothing. It was just that he’s dying to use the “v-word”.

      2. NotJohnConnor Avatar
        NotJohnConnor

        I don’t see suspensions from all schools as productive, but you have to get disruptive students out of regular classrooms. We are currently allowing 1 or 2 disruptive students to spoil the educational opportunities for 20 to 30 other kids. This is most destructive to those students who are marginalized and in poorer districts that may have more disruptive students. We need alternatives, and we need admins to back the teachers and not try to force teachers to “hide the disruptions” . It is destroying opportunities for a generation.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          All pubic schools have alternative schools for disruptive kids. It’s just not true that they do not.

          Let’s start with what is true and stop what are lies and engage in what the reality is – and is not.

          If the situation was really true that disruptive kids are ruining education for the others, Virginia would not be 10th nationally on K-12 academics nor would a majority of Virginia kids be attending higher ed after K-12.

          Make no mistake, disruptive kids are a serious problem.

          Make no mistake, it’s not a new one. Anyone with a few years on them should remember shows like “Welcome Back Cotter” and “To Sir with Love” and many others that documented the problem – decades ago.

          1. NotJohnConnor Avatar
            NotJohnConnor

            The “alternative schools” are generally for violent students, not just “disruptive”. I have talked with teachers that are actively discouraged from filing disciplinary reports for disrespect and disrupting. If the teacher is constantly dealing with “minor” issues of talking in class and distracting students they cannot effectively “teach” which harms the remaining students. To me, much of the issue is related to students being placed in class where they are hopelessly behind and cannot comprehend the lessons. We need “tracking” that avoids prior discrimination, but teaches students at a level appropriate to their abilities, and seek early interventions especially in basic reading and math skills in K-5 level to help students level up. A student who does not learn multiplication in third grade is hopelessly lost if they are put in an algebra class later on. One size education does not fit all.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            They have a range of school settings for those who should not be in normal settings.

            I totally agree with you with respect to what happens to kids who do not learn to read and do math by 3 and 4th grade.

            But no one is advocating one-size fits all unless it’s the Charter school folks who think Charter schools fix everything.

            At the end of the day, we spend 10K per kid for 12yrs and the kids that fail to learn how to read/write/math by 3rd grade, we spend 30K a year on for their lifetimes.

            Is this what we really want?

            we make excuses so we can pay 30K a year for life?

      3. Kathleen Smith Avatar
        Kathleen Smith

        As Sherlock says, charter schools are public schools. There is a difference between a short term suspension and a long term suspension. 180+ days are usually reserved for guns, etc.

        Suspensions that are last result — okay, if I tell a bunch of kids that cursing is not allowed and one curses and I do nothing, what am I telling the others.

        Consistency and fairness matter as well. Do kids actually read the playbook for discipline?

    2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      I don’t mean to diminish your experience or that of any teacher. Teaching is hard and it is obviously harder now than it was 50 years ago. Based on your comments on this blog, you are one of those good teachers who know how to handle the Franks in your class.

      There have always been Walters, as well. The second, and larger, elementary school I attended put the Walters in a separate class. In seventh grade, there were three classes–one for the advanced students, one for the “average” student, and one for the Walters. They were not labeled as such, but it was obvious. Along the way into high school, the Walters tended to drop out.

      I realize that it is not fair to other students to keep the Walters in their classes. It really does not help Walter, either.

      Today, schools have counselors who should be there to help the Walters. I like to think that the Walters are not incorrigible, but troubled. I would hate to think that the system would give up on them while they are still in elementary school, because, by the time they are in high school, it may indeed be too late.

      I am not sure what the answer is. I know that I would not have had the temperament or patience to work with these children. As far as I am concerned, those teachers and counselors who do so and are dedicated to it are saints and should be cherished by the school and society in general.

      1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        The euphemism used in our school was “homogeneous grouping”.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          sounds a little like “tracking”… which is good for some kids and not so good for others and seems to me to be somewhat analogous to German and other schools that test you then determine your “path”.

          “tracking” was also done for racial purposes when US schools were first integrated.

          Kids that are truly disruptive and discipline problems should be removed and as far as I can tell, actually are in a lot of schools but perhaps not all and especially at schools that are largely low-income, economically disadvantaged.

      2. Kathleen Smith Avatar
        Kathleen Smith

        How do you define incorrigible without really considering troubled. One implies a solution, the other does not. I my reality – which is very idealistic – all kids are troubled, very few are incorrigible.

  3. James C. Sherlock Avatar
    James C. Sherlock

    Bless you if “sassy” is the worst situation you ever encountered. Me too. It was a simpler time.

  4. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    “If I had had the training on getting beyond his misbehavior to what was troubling him”

    It takes 3 to 5 years for a good teacher to become perceptive to this and know what to do. The best training is time engaged and probably what you learned growing up at Aaron’s Creek.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      You are correct.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      and not going to happen with emergency newbie replacements….

  5. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    No doubt, Frank has ascended to the corporate leadership of a major social networking company by now.

    I don’t envy the K-12 instruction crowd. I had only one of that age group with which to deal, and I’m still befuddled.

    Of course, a fate worse than suspension might be simply ignoring the kid; dump him in with 29 more just like him and carry them to the eventual exit.

    Seems like it’s always devolves to the argument between the “rod spare, spoil” crowd and the “we can outsmart ’em” crowd. Personally, I prefer the latter. Always more fun to teach them guile than vacuous force.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s-VRyQprlu8

    Or

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sqkowVU5mZI

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Indeed. Some corporate and institutional “leaders” were “disruptive” in school…

    2. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      “Always more fun to teach them guile than vacuous force.”

      Didn’t work out so well with Charles Manson, he learned both.

      We gotta figure better ways to teach all kids to read, especially the “difficult” ones.

      1. YellowstoneBound1948 Avatar
        YellowstoneBound1948

        Lefty, is your other name “Tex”? By the way, we were living in Boston during the missile crisis. Dad was stationed on board the USS Wasp, and was part of the blockade.

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Define “well”.

  6. Matt Hurt Avatar
    Matt Hurt

    Back when I was an administrator in a PreK-8 school, we rarely suspended any student from school, in fact, most years we didn’t at all. We found that those kids would much rather be at home than school, so suspending them actually reinforced that negative behavior. We really tried to take into account each kid’s situation, and try to work with them from a positive position rather than relying solely on punishment. However, classroom disruptions were not tolerated at all. Instead of sending them home, we put them in In School Suspension (ISS). In fact, we tended to use ISS during lunch or their “fun” classes, and tried not to take them out of their core academic classes unless we had to remove them immediately for disruptive behavior. We wanted them in their core classes to the greatest extent possible.

    This tactic, combined with an overall culture shift in the school, caused the discipline referrals to decline each year. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

  7. YellowstoneBound1948 Avatar
    YellowstoneBound1948

    There are so many topics of conversation in this thread that I don’t know how to engage.

    I have wanted to mention Tinker v. Des Moines (1969) for some time. That was the case that restricted a public school’s power to exert control over the “arm bands” that students were wearing in the classroom. From that moment on, teachers lost control. If you Google “Tinker,” you will find a good summary.

    If you have ever asked yourself, “what happened to our schools?”, here’s your answer.

  8. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    For years we’ve been meaning to try to look up a kid my wife had in her first class in Franklin County back in the late ’70s. At the time we figured the fifth grader was destined for prison on a murder rap, and the family around him had a history of violence, too. Not a job I’d do. The best approaches currently involve a phrase missing from all these discussions, “trauma informed,” working on a theory that what has been done TO the child has much to do with what behaviors they exhibit, and unless you consider the trauma you won’t make much progress.

    Getting to a point where I just need to link to my old copy:

    https://www.baconsrebellion.com/being-dealt-a-losing-hand-that-lingers/

    Lots of you didn’t see that in 2018. Go ahead and take the ACES test now yourself….

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      A close-friend-teacher related that he could predict with some accuracy the future outcomes for some kids.

      * – the ones that stole lunch money from others

      *- the ones that lied out their backends even when directly confronted.

      *- the ones who had chaotic home situations , not only one-parent, but two-parents and sending kid to live with relatives and back and forth life.

      *- the ones who would commit violent acts on others , taught by parents….

      *- the kids whose parents would let them miss school or even the family leave for days or even a week or more to do “stuff”.

      *- the kids who came back after some and had forgotten much of what they had been taught the year before.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Public Education is a bit of a high-wire act in that it’s supposed to treat every child as entitled to opportunity and not doomed because of who their parents are or did.

      It’s simply not a job for the timid or tentative.

      And for me, it feels like the advocacy for Charter schools is to essentially provide a less wild/wooly setting for both teachers and students.

      I can stand to be called “wrong” on this as long as it’s followed by a ” this is what charters are really about, not what you think”.

      I have no trouble suspending or expelling truly dangerous and incorrigible but as Matt has illustrated, you don’t get there in knee jerk mode because truth be known, they’re still growing and there is still opportunity for some of them to turn around, provided you have skilled professionals in house to do it right.

      The fear-mongering coming from some folks is truly wrong-headed and ignorant in my view although I will fully admit if I were a teacher in a school with a few bad apples doing their thing.. it would be a tough gig and easy to leave if it got worse.

    3. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Pretty much a zero. Mom and Dad were abusive in punishment but “often” was not a factor.

      https://www.discovermagazine.com/technology/on-the-role-of-upholstery-in-cardiovascular-physiology

      Upholsterer discovers link between personality and cardiology.

      Or listen to the story…
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JVxfcE4F9Xo&ebc=ANyPxKqCRpUMr2X2C5o2yg0hbdW0Y19BHRWH2VrnyZOAYN9PBsg2JmJ873P1RAukAliS0lkLWKBw6_oYlHpFGRtE1XnY_nS-XQ&feature=emb_logo

  9. James Kiser Avatar
    James Kiser

    Dick it is shame you can’t talk to a few teachers and school transport people I know. How do you handle a kid who insists on stripping down totally on his school bus and does it on a regular basis. And assaults the drivers. Or students who physically assault teachers and aides with weapons in the classroom ? Why must the people who want to learn have that process taken from them by selfish little turds. These kids are the same ones who do your mass killings and other mayhem in society. You shoot mad dogs and these little turds are no different. Harsh but frankly I don’t care that these thugs didn’t get the hugs they think they deserved. There need to be severe consequences for evil decisions.

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      So, tell us again about abortion.

      Well, you don’t let ’em buy AR-15s. Or, let mom and dad buy ’em Jr-15s (new kid-sized AR-15 from Daniels Defense).

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FL5aMvrUUAIOxzU?format=jpg&name=900×900

      Smaller, safer (litte kiddy skulls and crossbones), lighter?

      Well, I says we do away with the death penalty and replace with Life Withou Parole (LWOP). But, since we already have SuperMax prisons we add LWOC — Life Without Contact, effectively lifelong solitary confinement. You’re put in a cell through the front door, back door leads to an outdoor space, and the next time you go through the front door is as a cadaver. No medical care.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      we’re playing strawman boogeyman here as if nothing is done which is simply not the truth

      Conservative types are playing the same old law & order playbook, public school version and as if Charters would solve the problem.

      what does the actual data show?

      The claim seems to be that if Conservatives were in charge, we’d not have these issues, that these issues are basically the result of the wrong kind of policies which is what liberals do.

      same old. same old. lame stuff.

      1. James Kiser Avatar
        James Kiser

        Ok so the people I am talking to are lying about these incidents, You do know that administrators in Loudoun County do not report incidents in school. As a parent I have dealt with school officials and they are loath to call LE about any issue

      2. James Kiser Avatar
        James Kiser

        Listen up the drivers and the teachers have been told they cannot report any of this. If they do they lose their jobs and no it is not in writing. It is verbal. Keep drinking that Kool Aid.

  10. JayCee Avatar

    End government schools, they are merely organ grinders for the left. Vouchers for all.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      tax everyone to pay for private schools?

      yepper…

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Don’t fret it, Larry. The voucher school is the government contracting model adapted to the school system. What could go wrong?

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          As long as you have the part of the contract that says “deliverables”, not much…

          😉

          but hey, if we did that for those housing vouchers.. just give them the money and let them find a place to live… near a good school.. that “works” too…

          😉

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Remember those cute welfare dollars? The ones used to buy lobsters?

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            hmm… from welfare Cadillac’s with Obama phones? sure…

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