Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

Feds to Approve Rail-to-Dulles?

—

by

James A. Bacon
in

The Washington Post says that federal transportation officials are planning to announce their backing of a $5 billion, 23-mile extension of Metrorail to Dulles International Airport. That announcement would represent a dramatic reversal of a January finding that the benefits of the project were too marginal and the risks too great to warrant federal funding.

U.S. Transportation Secretary Mary Peters and Gov. Timothy M. Kaine were expected to inform Northern Virginia’s congressional leaders of the decision in a private conference call at 10 a.m. today.

The announcement represents a great coup for the Kaine administration. Federal funding for the controversial rail project is absolutely critical. But hurdles still remain, none of which the Washington Post article mentions. First is the lawsuit, now before the state Supreme Court, disputing the legal right of the Kaine administration to transfer the Dulles Toll Road to the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority. Toll road revenues are another critical component of the Rail-to-Dulles funding package. A Supreme Court ruling in May could either clear the way for the project or drive a stake through its heart.

The second hurdle centers on the special tax district in Fairfax County, which would raise tax revenues from commercial property owners along the rail route. I invite someone better informed than me to provide correction or elaboration, but, as I understand it, the authorization for creating that tax district has expired. Whether renewing that authorization is a pro forma matter or one that could erupt again into political controversy and drag out the project time-line is a question I cannot answer.

Update: Our friend TooManyTaxes has passed along a summary, prepared by the Federal Transit Administration, of “what changed” between January and today. Two of the more tangible changes include: identification of $200 million in cost reductions and “a Finance Plan with more resources committed to the project.”

Share this article

ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)

ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)

Comments

  1. Bob Avatar
    Bob

    Let’s see. We have $5,000,000,000 to play with. How many $100 cab rides to the airport could the government give away for free? 50,000,000.

    That’s a lot of “free” cab rides.

    Oh, and if Mr Kaine were not anti-road, he could do some online shopping and put a brand new divided, urban 6 lane interstate in his shopping cart for the bargain price of $12,600,385.78 per mile.

    That’s 400 miles worth of freeway for the cost of this 23-mile boondoggle.

  2. Les Avatar
    Les

    According to the Post, Virginia and the local governments had to commit to funding nearly $500 million in infrastructure investments for the Metro system. It’s not clear whether this covers Virginia’s share of the Metro system or it encompasses DC, Maryland, and Virginia.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2008/04/30/DI2008043001669.html?

  3. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Gee Bob .. roads must be way cheaper in Fairfax than Maryland..

    18 miles of the ICC will cost 2.5 Billion or more than 100 million per mile….

    how can that be?

  4. Bob Avatar
    Bob

    Hey, don’t blame me for the money Maryland is wasting on a toll road. I’ve mentioned many times that it costs more to build a toll road, but I honestly have no explanation for why Maryland is spending $1.3b for ICC construction (see icc budget pdf)

    My post linked to FDOT’s estimated road building costs. It’s very extensive and detailed, check it out. If you’re still skeptical, FHWA has this handy FAQ. It gives an example of a rural highway actually built for $6m per mile, in line with FDOT’s rural estimates.

    There are costs besides construction — design, financing, bribes to the locals, etc. VDOT can do design in-house.

  5. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    How do you build more roads when you’ve got this problem:

    “The Washington-Baltimore region still has one of the worst air pollution problems in the country, ranking among the top 10 metropolitan areas for smog and soot,”

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/30/AR2008043003396.html?hpid=topnews

  6. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: using the cost of rural roads to show how cheap urban roads can be compared to transit costs.

    Bob -you need to compare urban road costs with urban rail costs – apples to apples.

    The FHWA web page you cited talks about I-73/I-74/I-26 in North Carolina … which I travel… just the other day in fact..

    These roads are out in the middle of the boondocks.

    they are what I call “connecting roads” .. roads that connect Greens borro with Charlotte and I40 with I-81.

    They are not urban commuting roads.

    Pro-road folks often make the mistake of:

    1. – claiming that urban roads can be built for what rural roads cost

    2. – consider the air quality issue as “phony”.

    Both 1. and 2. play a huge role in the push for transit in urban areas,

    The EPA simply will veto any new freeway/interstates that add more air pollution.

    And roads like the ICC are not expensive because of TOLL road infrastructure but they are expensive for the same reason that Metro rail is and that is the cost of the right-of-way.. which is not only not rural.. but usually already-developed and very expensive.

    Just about ANY new road or rail in the Wash Metro area would be easily 10 times higher in cost than a rural road – BECAUSE of the cost of the right-of-way.

    What you’re really comparing in urban areas is the cost of the materials for rail verses the cost of materials for roadways.

    The right-of-way costs are virtually the same.

  7. Bob Avatar
    Bob

    If you’re going to question everything I say (an excellent instinct), please have the courtesy to try to understand what is being said first. FDOT provides estimates for rural and urban locations. Like Virginia, Florida has some of the most expensive real estate in the country and other places where you can buy an acre of land for $6 and a ball of twine. FDOT does this for a living.

    I cited their estimates of an urban freeway with a construction-only cost of $12m/mile, including right-of-way calculated based on average urbanFlorida values. The actual cost of the North Carolina road was $6m/mile including all assorted engineering and non-construction costs. So there’s no implication that urban is anything but a lot more expensive than rural. The example was given to show that FDOT’s numbers were realistic, which is why I said: “[FHWA] gives an example of a rural highway actually built for $6m per mile, in line with FDOT’s rural estimates.”

    Is the right-of-way in Tyson’s Corner going to be more expensive than the average urban value? Duh. It’s just an example based on averages given with no particular location in mind. What’s needed more is expanding the lanes on the existing highways, but I wanted to choose my example using FDOT’s most expensive cost model.

    As for pollution: (1) It’s laughable to say this area has the worst pollution. I grew up in the Los Angeles area; Virginia is paradise. (2) Calling CO2 a “problem” is phony. (3) Soot, NOx, etc. are problems and are not phony. The question is, what’s the best solution? Idling cars stuck in congestion certainly isn’t a good solution. A bunch of noxious fume-spewing buses with 3 people on board isn’t a solution. Closing all the roads and destroying the economy isn’t a solution — e.g., you can read about how filthy the city of London was a long time before cars showed up.

    By the way, toll roads require quite a bit more right-of-way for equipment.

  8. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    well, we still need to know if, in principal, you think the construction and operation of the CBBT is wrong.

    re: air pollution

    the EPA has already performed the health impact trade-offs. you are free to dispute it on a factual basis that demonstrates that the EPA used wrong data and/or interpreted it incorrectly but I’m afraid your opinion alone is insufficient.

    Show the cites for the studies that show than the EPA erred…

    re: toll road right of way.

    nice try but unless you can show some numbers and explain how..

    modern toll roads use Gantries that have their supports planted in the shoulders.

    toll plazas DO take more right of way AND employees… and were the reason why toll roads USED to be fiscally inefficient.

    A TOLL road is a road that gets built and operated rather than a road that sits for decades on a wish list.

    A TOLL road actually frees up gas tax revenues for other projects than cannot be tolled – such as bridges that lack funding.

    You keep citing Florida.

    Florida is a toll-road state and most of them are electronic.

    It’s ironic that you cite them for right-of-way costs.. because right-of-way costs are irrelevant unless you actually have the money to buy them – which you DO with toll roads and you DON’T with gas tax funding.

    You don’t like toll roads so what is your plan?

    Is your plan that you think that VDOT has lots of money and is wasting it rather than building more efficient non-toll roads?

    What is YOUR PLAN for funding road infrastructure.. and be specific..

    tell me how much more funding do you think we need.. and how you would raise that money….

    let’s AGREE to NOT use (your word) propaganda… and focus on consistency in principles, facts and relevancy

  9. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “I honestly have no explanation for why Maryland is spending $1.3b for ICC construction …”

    One reason might be that they spent thirty years arguing and suing. Could have been done for a lot less when the idea first came up.

    RH

  10. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “How do you build more roads when you’ve got this problem:…(air pollution)”

    How can you make the argument for toll roads then? Toll money will not be used to solve congetion pproblems, just admit it and move on.

    And housing is responsible for a third of all air pollution. How will you increase density without facing the same problem? Oh, that’s right, you export the air pollution by building a coal powered electric plant in Wise.

    You could put more jobs where people live, cut down on VMT, cut down on the need for more roads, get better use out of the ones you alredy have, and do it far cheaper than building a toll road which allows people to buy their way out of car pools, increases traffic, and causes job centers to move anyway.

    RH

  11. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “The right-of-way costs are virtually the same.”

    What I hear you saying is that therre comes a time whne the land under a project is worth more than the project. In other words, there is no way to make that project pay.

    It is exactly like the South Carolina Dept. of Agriculture said about farming: if the land is worth $6000 an acre, there is no point in farming it. You would be better off to sell and invest the money in government bonds.

    There is no need to plan for road infrastructure in urban areas because EPA won’t let you have it, and it is too expensive to afford. Comes a time when you just have to hang it up, and figure out a different plan. Primarily, that means starting a new location where costs are lower, or conceding that urban locations are going to be many times as expensive as they are, before they become “functional”.

    That sounds a lot like a tax increase to promote density and preserve the countryside. so, let’s just call it what it really is. The additional costs of promoting excess density over and above what the market would do on its own is really an environmental cost (tax) for protecting the countryside.

    Now, how do you sell and promote that idea in such a way that people will buy it?

    RH

  12. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “which you DO with toll roads and you DON’T with gas tax funding.”

    Not necessarily. How many toll roads can you think of that never paid, got bailed out, etc? Besides, you argue that gas tax will reduce driving and lower revenues, you admit that tolls are designed for demand management, but you don’t recognize that the same effect can happen with tolls as with gas tax – and the result willstill be less revenue.

    “A TOLL road actually frees up gas tax revenues for other projects than cannot be tolled – such as bridges that lack funding.”

    In other words, toll roads for NOVA are just another way to jack up THEIR taxes and redistribute more gas tax funds elsewhere.

    If your argument was for universal toll roads, then your arguments would make a lot more sense and sound less phony.

    But, if you were going to have universal toll roads you could rasie the same money easier from all the same people by just fixing the gas tax – substantiallly if necessary. I don’t see how you think you can get a buck a mile for tolls, but you can’t get a buck a mile in gas tax.

    RH

  13. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I’ll say it again. A better plan would be to toll the congested lanes, and then use the money to PAY people to use carpools in the other lanes.

    You get to use the same incentive twice, so you get a double whammy: once against solo drivers and once for car pools. It is a true market based approach, and the money actually helps all the users in both the regular and carpool lanes.

    This idea INCREASES car pools instead of decreasing them as the HOT lanes will. It does this by offsetting the costs of solo driving against the costs of forming and operating a car pool.

    Using this model the users of the regular lanes pay to get more of what they want, and the users of the car pool lanes get paid to put up with what (mostly) they don’t want. the users pay and the workers (car pool operators) get paid.

    RH

  14. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “How can you make the argument for toll roads then?”

    Do you really understand how non-attainment and new roads “work”?

    New roads can only be HOV or HOT and the reason why is because they reduce the number of SOLO cars.. which results in a net increase in pollution or if enough people switch from SOLO to any other form of multi-person vehicles, the overall levels could actually decrease.

    I’m still waiting to hear from you and Bob on the CBBT.

    Was it wrong to build and operate it as a toll road.

    If you are opposed to toll roads for the reasons you state – does that mean you are opposed to ALL toll roads for the same reasons?

  15. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    oops.. “.. less SOLO cars results in no net increase in pollution levels”

  16. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Nice try, Larry, Except the studies predict taht HOT lanes increase the number of solo drivers because people will opt to buy their way out of messing with the car pools.

    Which is why my suggestion above is better. Only problem with it is, of course, that it produces NO REVENUE for anybody except those that use the road being tolled. It is revenue neutral, and it actually helps those who choose to drive solo and pay for the privilege, because more cars are released from the normal lanes than under the HOT plan.

    That’s because under the HOT plan a solo driver might pay to be a solo driver in the HOT lane, but under my plan the HOT lane is ONLT for carpools. Therefore many solo drivers who leave the regualr lanes would be riding in a carpool and actually reducing pollution, thather than merely paying to increase it.

    ————————–

    With regard to CBBT, I think that is a special case. You cannot generalize form the specific and ensure that the special case will obtain generally. Absent a lot more examples that closely approximate the HOT lane situation, which is entirely diffrent, in my opinion, your analysis is an obvious logical fallacy, usually known as cherry picking, or false generalization.

    RH

  17. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “New roads can only be HOV or HOT …”

    You mean to tell me that you have a bunch of roads, already at capacity, then you add a new road, (HOV or not) and it doesn’t increase pollution?

    The assumption that the new road reduces the number of solo cars on some other road doesn’t hold. Anyway, if it did, you would then have to concede that new roads do reduce congestion by taking the load off of others, and not actually create induced traffic.

    The point is that HOV or not, tolls or not, you will not get may additional urban roads. Therefore, the idiea that tolls will reduce congestion, fund mmore roads, and benefit those that pay the tolls is fundamentally a fraud. None of that is going to happen.

    Even if you swallow the EPA’s reasoning, you eventually get to the point where all roads are HOV, and still maxed out. At that point, you might be willing to concede you have developed that area enough: enough being all that is possible without increasing waste.

    MAYBE, the thing to do is consider that possibility a little sooner, like before you spend a few trillion dollrs of money taken from a select few.

    RH

  18. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “Nice try, Larry, Except the studies predict taht HOT lanes increase the number of solo drivers because people will opt to buy their way out of messing with the car pools.”

    go read up on the rationale behind non-attainment.

    It’s not my opinion.

    The reason why you can have ONLY HOT/HOV lanes is because of EPA policies.

    You are free to disagree using the facts but you are not entitled to your own set of facts.

    Go get the facts.

    re: CBBT

    If CBBT is a “special case”, then explain why.. what the circumstances are that you believe tolls such as on the CBBT are valid.

    I thought that you were opposed to any/all forms of tolls no matter what.

    If you are not..please explain the circumstances where you do support tolls.

  19. Bob Avatar
    Bob

    “well, we still need to know if, in principal, you think the construction and operation of the CBBT is wrong”

    You might as well be asking about a toll road in Nebraska. My opinion on toll roads in general has been stated. My opinion of CBBT is that I can’t remember if I’ve ever driven on it, so I have nothing of particular value to add about CBBT. I’m not against all toll roads. A 100% private road, built without any government support, can toll if it wants to — that’s a very rare case.

    “the EPA has already performed the health impact trade-offs”

    The EPA can study the effects of traffic levels on the environment. That is a question of experimental science. EPA has no special competence in weighing the value of an economic trade-off. That is a question of political judgment.

    E.g., how about offseting a new freeway by replacing a nasty coal plant with Nuke power? There are ways to work these things out if there’s a will.

    As for the toll gantries, you seem to think we’re talking about simple supermarket scanners on poles. Not so. It’s highly complex equipment requiring networking, 24/7 database access, uninterrupted power, cameras, sensors, etc. Each of these requires regular cleaning, maintenance and replacement. The stuff goes haywire all the time — this requires customer service.

    And, no, I’ve never called the I-95 customer service line at VDOT. I don’t think I know anyone who ever has. I do know people who’ve been forced to call toll road customer service lines — it’s worse than DMV or the cable company. Class action lawsuits pending in Orange County and Chicago.

    Each of these needs special toll needs requires on-site staff. In the ICC budget I posted, some of the costs are listed. From memory, there are 6 or 7 special $1m+ office buildings needed along the ICC. In a previous thread, I linked the TxDOT testimony explaining that collection cost was 11c for each toll electronic and 30c for each cash toll. Collection is only one small part of the overhead: taxes, 13% profit margin (specified in the I-95 HOT contract), higher financing costs, extra-right-of-way, customer service, legal fees from court challenges, credit card fee of 2.5%, etc. etc. etc. all add up to a boatload of money that wouldn’t be necessary in a non-toll road. Forty percent is an estimate of these overhead costs taken together, based on looking at tolling contracts that don’t want facts like that deduced. It’s not gospel; it’s an estimate.

    What’s my building plan? Take the $5 billion about to be wasted on the Dulles boondoggle, expand every freeway in Virginia by one or two lanes until the money runs out. Call it a day.

    Step two: Defund all public transit, traffic calming, “special enforcement grants” (speed traps), bicycle and nature trails, and all other non-road programs at VDOT. Put that money into repairing existing bridges & infrastructure beginning with the ones listed as most deficient. If the hippies want to ride a soot-spewing bus, they can pay for it themselves.

    Any city traffic engineer that uses signal timing for “traffic calming” (i.e., intentional congestion) will be shot. I’m looking at you, Alexandria.

    Step Three: Wait while the Virginia public demands repeal of the one-term limit rule so that I can be unanimously proclaimed a second-term governor for solving congestion in our time.

  20. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: EPA “trade-offs”.

    Non-attainment status and the sanctions that arise from it ARE all about trade-offs AND politics.

    You just don’t happen to agree but the case is certainly NOT true that trade-offs are not part of the process.

    Use your GOOGLE to find out about things that you don’t agree with as well as finding things that support your ideas….

    re: toll road expenses compared to non-toll road expenses

    It does cost to implement tolls – no question about it.

    But you basically have a choice of no road at all or a toll road in the current funding environment.

    We already have hundreds of projects that do not have funding and the funding situation is going downhill fast…

    Bob – where do you think the 5 Billion for Dulles is coming from?

    are you assuming :

    1. – that money already exists

    2. – that it’s coming from RoVa and not NoVa?

    You’re also wrong about how much money is “not spent” on highway/roads.

    You could squeeze out another 5% or so.. by ruling out these other non-highway projects but it will buy you very little in terms of major funding of other highway projects.

    and here’s where you are really, really wrong….

    the current backlog of deficient bridges with respect to the lion’s share of existing funding…

    we’ve had your choice all along… either use the existing 2 Billion dollars a year for fixing the bridges OR spend it on new roads.

    … two questions on your plate:

    1. – are you or are you not opposed to ANY toll roads on principle?

    CBBT is operated by a separate agency and the Powhite Parkway is operated by VDOT and the Pocahontas Parkway is operated by a private concession.

    If you were in charge – would you shut these operations down and fund them with gas tax revenues?

    no weasel words – let’s get on the record with respect to your basic principles…

    2. – you also did not respond on specifics

    a. – how much MORE funding do we need for roads

    b. – WHERE would you get it from?

    fell free to subtract out the “useless” projects.. if you wish..

    WHERE would you get the majority of the funding to fix the deficient bridges?

    VDOT has in it’s 4 Billion dollar annual budget more than a Billion allocated for HIGHWAYs (not non-transportation).

    Why not use THAT money to fix the bridges?

  21. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “The reason why you can have ONLY HOT/HOV lanes is because of EPA policies. “

    I never said otherwise.

    All I’m saying is take a look at what that means.

    We are in a non-attainment area. We build a new road, HOT/HOV or not, and we will have more traffic and more pollution, ie even less attainment.

    So, it’s OK to poison ourselves, as long as we do it in car pools.

    OR else, we think we can reduce overall pollution by building new roads.

    How can it not be one or the other?

    —————————-

    I don’t really think that makes a hill of beans difference. In the long run, here is what it says:

    You can’t build any more roads.
    The roads you have must be operated with car pools, unless you have HOT lanes so you can buy your way out of car pools.

    Eventually all road capacity is filled.

    The only way to increase capacity is more mass transit (what I call heroic systems).

    Evidence says (EVEN in NEW YORK) these will never pay their own way, be more costly and slower that the alternatives. As a result people will spend more and more of their lives riding more and more expensive transit.

    Why?

    Because we couldn’t bring ourselves to limit job density in an area to what we could economically support.

    EPA policies are telling us there is only so much you can do, and we are not listening.

    RH

  22. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “But you basically have a choice of no road at all or a toll road in the current funding environment.”

    And in the current operating environment, no road at all might be a better option. Rather than use tolls to create demand management, us zoning to allow the demand to happen, but control where it happens: someplace where the roads are not jammed to the hilt.

    RH

  23. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “I thought that you were opposed to any/all forms of tolls no matter what.”

    Where did you get that idea? I’m not opposed to tolls, I’m opposed to utterly stupid ideas.

    Like HOT lanes and Congestion tolls.

    RH

  24. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “the current backlog of deficient bridges with respect to the lion’s share of existing funding…”

    And how did we get that backlog? Because users refused to pay their share as they went along? Because we never indexed the gas tax to reality for twenty years? Because we raided the transportation fund?

    We ought ot see to it that current funds pay for current needs.

    Then, if we need more funds for the backlog, we should get it with a special assessment against estate taxes: you don’t get to die without paying for your share of the roads you used up.

    RH

  25. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I would favor a toll system if it was universal, and if it was adjusted for weight, economy, and occupancy. And if it was cheaper, safer, and more efficient to collect than other methods.

    I’m not against toll systems, I just think it is an utterly dumb idea. Its still better than ideas that are even worse, like PRT.

    RH

  26. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “….And if it was cheaper, safer, and more efficient to collect than “

    How do you know the current system is cheaper?

    You sound like the lone WalMart honcho who argued that scanners and all that expensive infrastructure would be more expensive than manual cash registers…

    you just ASSUME that the current process is better and more efficient.

    You talk about the “complexity” of having credit card accounts for tolls…

    but then most folks already swipe credit cards at the gas pumps.. using the same “complex” credit card system that already exists..that you cite as a reason for not using tolls… wow…

    Bob talks about the “trouble-prone” technology.

    right.. and when a scanner breaks in a WalMart line – I suppose he would be the one to say that “I told you so” – that “proves” that such “trouble-prone” technology should be rejected and go back to manually systems.

    Needless to say – neither of you work in the Advanced Technology part of WalMart nor TOll systems!

    High speed electronic tolling is not perfect but it’s not experimental either…

    .. check the facts… millions, billions of successful transactions…

    it’s being retrofitted on Va toll roads like PoWhite and CBBT.

    If they did not work.. then why are they being backfitted on existing toll roads?

    …and all of this goes back to you and Bob’s original thought that new systems are not as efficient as existing systems…

    i.e. – you ASSUME it’s cheaper to “administer” the gas tax than it is to “administer” tolls.

    I’m not convinced..

    do you know how your gas tax is processed from the time you pay for it until it ends up in the State’s bank account? I bet not.

  27. Bob Avatar
    Bob

    I think you’re now being difficult for the sake of being difficult. I listed several specific ways in which the tolling adds massive overhead not needed in the gas tax — even including specific collection numbers from TxDOT. I’m not going to repeat myself.

    Toll scanners are not WalMart scanners. You do not go to jail when the WalMart scanner is broken. Example. Example. Example. Example. Example

    Yes, billions of successful toll transactions! Now imagine an amazing accuracy rate of 99.99% on a billion transactions. That’s 100,000 people getting screwed and falsely accused of a crimes. Do you like that? That doesn’t happen at WalMart because there are human beings involved — you’re going to notice if the scanner says your cheap Chinese-made soap dish costs $1,395. I provide the linked examples above to show the consequences are not exaggerated: felony arrest warrants, fines in the tens of thousands, and arrests over 75 cents all over tolls and disputes.

    “do you know how your gas tax is processed from the time you pay for it until it ends up in the State’s bank account? I bet not”

    Are you picturing that each time you put your credit card into the pump that Citibank sends 18.4c to the feds and 17.5c to Richmond? That’s not how it happens. The distributor pays the tax for gas in bulk as it is shipped. So it’s not even point-of-sale like the sales tax — it’s more efficient. This is also why most (not all) states go with a per gallon not percentage of price approach.

    So, no, I don’t assume gas tax costs less to administer than tolls. I know it for a fact. This is a lot of money collected from a handful of companies rather than a small amount collected from a lot of individuals.

    “If they did not work.. then why are they being backfitted on existing toll roads?”

    Because of a confluence of two forces. Left-wing greens and socialists who hate cars and want to steal car money for buses (like the Mayor of London) team up with “conservatives” who have been flamboozled by the PR campaign heavily funded by tolling contractors and companies that don’t want to see the gas price increased (note: I love the petroleum industry, but the are bankrolling tolls out of corporate self-interest). This left-right combo punch is pushing tolls and “congestion pricing” which requires the electronic spy systems. The police state types love the transponders, too. This isn’t a tin-foil hat rant: you can look it up in the Form 990s of the “think tanks” pushing the stuff. Ka-ching.

  28. Bob Avatar
    Bob

    Need to clarify since I jumped into a big picture rant too quickly. Electronic toll collection is preferable to manual toll collection from several points of view, especially the toller’s:

    1. It’s more convenient and will cause fewer deaths than toll booths. (But they’re still dangerous)

    2. It’s about 50-70% cheaper to collect electronic tolls. This is collection cost only. Electronic creates other costs that go on a different part of the budget, but overall it’s way cheaper than hiring a bunch of union deadbeats to sit in a box for 8 hours a day.

    3. Electronic tolling hides the price of a toll road. This is good for a toller because fewer people will notice or care about rate hikes. It also eliminates/reduces the “benefit” of shifting congestion from tolled to untolled lanes or side streets that Mr. Bacon insists is there.

    4. The error rates are in favor of the toller. Who checks their bill every month? Most people will even pay the $50 violation notices when not guilty because they have a job that pays more than $50 a day — not worth going to “court.” Of course, you don’t get to go to a real court anyway.

    5. Big brother data sharing. Lots of people would like to see where individual people go on a day-to-day basis. One-stop shopping for divorce lawyers, cops and anyone else that can afford the bribe.

  29. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Bob – You make good points, but the imposition of tolls on roads to Fairfax County will have the positive impact of discouraging more speculative investment in commercial real estate. It has been this phenomenon that has generated a big drop in the proportion of Fairfax County real estate taxes paid by commercial interests and the never-ending drum-beat by those same interests to see taxes raised for transportation so that they can build even more office buildings.

    Toll the roads and I’m likely to see my taxes stay flat.

    TMT

  30. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    ahhh.. the VAST left-right wing conspiracy… headed up by no less that the Reason Foundation in cahoots with Environmental Defense and FHWA/DOT.

    Well.. you had me going for a couple of posts.. but now that I know where you are REALLY coming from.. I’m relieved… 🙂

    and you never really answered the question about tolls in principle nor how much funding Virginia should have and where it will come from.

    so you’re basically non-responsive on the issues other than your own agenda… .. the “conspiracy”.

    news flash – if you think that you cannot already be tracked by cell phone… dream on.. and if you REALLY want to worry – check out the Automatic number plate recognition originally developed for toll roads and red light cameras.. now being used by police – independent from toll roads.

    they have it in their cars and stand-alone cameras are already set up along side of roads….

    the surveillance cat got out of the bag .. when license plates themselves were required not when technology made it easier to read them.

    here’s what I predict…

    The use of toll road transponders will be incentivized so that folks will willingly want to use them.

    Here’s one way. When you buy gasoline, the “reader” will detect your transponder.. look up your miles on toll roads and subtract out the equivalent gas tax on the sale.

    so.. you’ll get a credit for every mile driven on a road not paid for by gas taxes…

    People that drive on toll roads will be given discounts for parking… again by readers at the parking lot detecting your transponder.

    Some parking may actually REQUIRE transponders.. before you can park.

    Using Metro.. might give you toll road credits…

    etc, etc… I think:

    1. – the technology is here to stay

    2. – they’ll optimize/fix do reforms for the current unacceptable abuses

    3. – incentives will reward those with transponders. People will voluntarily use them.

    4. – we’ll eventually have embedded transponders that communicate your VIN and current odometer reading so that when you buy gas.. you’ll be charged per mile and per vehicle regardless of the fuel that you use.

  31. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Larry – IMO, you are headed in the correct direction. No pun intended.

    Why can’t toll charges be managed like any other product or service? It can. There are quite a few good marketing people in this area. I suspect that some of them could develop marketing plans that would make toll charges attractive. Frequent driver programs — every 11th trip is free. Group volume discounts — an neighbor that purchases X EZ Passes each month for three months gets 15% off toll charges. Donations to charity — purchase $200 of additonal usage and 5% is donated to AIDS, cancer, etc. program.

    The trick is to think outside the box and then have honest government oversight.

    TMT

  32. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Bob, you make two interesting points in your comment of 9:36 a.m. I would respond as follows:

    – Electronic tolling hides the price of the roads. I certainly agree that price transparency is crucial for making the tolls work well. I can only hope that the state’s deal with the private toll operators would include a clause that requires the current price of entry to a HOT lane to be clearly displayed — and displayed far enough ahead of the entry point that drivers can make reasoned decisions.

    – Big brother data sharing is another legitimate concern. However, that also can be addressed easily by the terms of the contract.

    If the commonwealth neglected to address either those points adequately, then the failure is that of the state officials doing the negotiating — not of electronic tolling. However, unless I see evidence to the contrary, those issues are so fundamental that I can only assume that they are, in fact, adequately dealt with in the contracts.

    If it transpires that either point is not addressed, then I will be second in line — behind you — to decry the incompetence of the state officials negotiating the contract.

  33. Bob Avatar
    Bob

    Mr. Gross,
    I don’t avoid questions — you asked too many. For the record, I love 95% of what the Reason Foundation does. Their work on tolls, however, is utterly dishonest. Can you think of any other reason they’re championing Red Ken’s pet project as if it were a model of capitalism?

    I did answer about tolls in principle. They’re always the worst, least efficient means of paying for a road. As a political matter, sometimes you might need to choose bad options. E.g., it’s OK if a toll road is 100% private (never actually happens) because it’s private property. Or perhaps you accept them as a Faustian bargain. E.g., “accept tolls or I’ll boil you in oil.” I’ll choose tolls.

    As for ANPR and cell tracking, the proper response isn’t, “Gee, it’s here already. Nothing I can do about it.” I refer you to the British solution.

    TMT,
    I really can’t help but laugh if you think Fairfax County would lower taxes when tolls hit the region. Government greed is the problem you’re identifying. Tolls create more government greed, not less.

    Mr. Bacon,
    This is how it’s done in California. On the 91 Express Lanes, there is an overhead message board with the price that varies with the time of day. On the other toll roads in the network (241, 133, 161) there is no signage because the tolls are flat — except perhaps for a weekend rate, I’m not sure. The 91 still suffers from the credit card effect that, although the number is disclosed, you don’t feel the effect of the money leaving your wallet.

    Big brother data sharing cannot be solved by contract. Once the data is collected in the first place, it will be misused.

    Really, the biggest problem with contracting is the non-compete clause. VDOT will agree to introduce congestion into competing routes — every single toll road contract ever signed includes a clause like this to lower the financing cost. In Texas, the SH130 contract encourages TxDOT to lower the speed limit on a freeway that runs parallel to the toll road. If TxDOT raises the freeway speed limit, it must pay $$$ to the toll companies.

    In other words, it’s obvious that these decisions are not being made in the public interest.

  34. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: “Electronic tolling hides the price of the roads.”

    any more so than gasoline taxes?

    try this experiment.

    ask 3 of your colleagues what the current Fed and State gas tax is.

    or ask the next 3 at the gas pump.

    I think you’ll find that few really know… the specifics..

  35. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: big brother

    don’t mistake approval. but bringing it up as a reason NOT to do tolls is not intellectually honest because first, it is a separate issue that involves privacy on a number of different levels.. including your emails… and phone conversations…

    .. and second .. you license plate is the means by which big brother can watch you – with a wide range of technology.. of which the only way to stop it would be to remove your plates.

    I agree with your points about non-compete and many other equity issues..

    If you were in charge – would you take the tolls off of CBBT, Powhite, Pocahontas and DTR and use gas tax money instead to operate them?

    and second, I did ask you, in your opinion, how much more funding do you think Virginia needs – over an above the 4 billion.. and from where should it come?

    My support of toll roads is predicated on the above question basically along the lines of not boiled in oil…as you suggest…

    but instead.. should we pay …
    by tax or toll?

    I choose tolls.

    do you choose taxes?

    no wiggling here.. tolls or taxes?

    🙂

  36. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “….And if it was cheaper, safer, and more efficient to collect than “

    How do you know the current system is cheaper?”

    Well, I don’t. But I don’t know the proposed system is cheaper either.

    I do know that one company I worked for had a contract to a credit card transcation processor for support services to their software system.

    The contract was worth tens of millions. So, I think there are transaction costs to keeping track of where and when all those vehicles get tolled.

    And I think those costs are in addition to whatever costs we have now. Until I hear someone say revenue neutral.

    RH

  37. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “you ASSUME it’s cheaper to “administer” the gas tax than it is to “administer” tolls.

    I’m not convinced..

    do you know how your gas tax is processed from the time you pay for it until it ends up in the State’s bank account? I bet not.”

    No I don’t, but in some states the people who collect sales taxes get a cut of the take for processig them.

    I’ll give you that.

    But, what you are really talking about is more transactions, a lot more transactions, and those transactions are on top of the gas tax costs, which we will still have.

    RH

  38. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    That’s interesting about the bombed out GATSO’s. There is one of those Automatic “You Are Speeding” signs near me that has been wrecked a couple of times.

    Shot out once, and run over once.
    I suspect it won’t be the last. And it doesn’t even issue a fine: it’s just annoying.

    If it was a flashing store sign, it would be illegal.

  39. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “VDOT will agree to introduce congestion into competing routes — every single toll road contract ever signed includes a clause like this to lower the financing cost. In Texas, the SH130 contract encourages TxDOT to lower the speed limit on a freeway that runs parallel to the toll road. If TxDOT raises the freeway speed limit, it must pay $$$ to the toll companies.”

    YEP. And HOT lanes are sold as if they will reduce congestion and reduce pollution.

    Every greenie worth his salt ought to be opposed to this HOT lane nonsense. It is a veritable compost bin of lies and other garbage.

    RH

  40. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    When pigs fly! That will be when Fairfax County reduces taxes. Bob, I don’t disagree with your conclusion that, irrespective of tolls or even money trees, Fairfax County would never reduce taxes.

    TMT

  41. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    ” more transactions, a lot more transactions,”

    Yup.. but computer transactions…

    like the WalMart line…using scanners rather than manually ringing and using swipe credit cards rather than checks…

    You may have noticed two more WalMart initiatives…(or not)

    Tele-check -which automatically electronically verifies your checking account funds AND automatically transfers those funds from your account to Theirs.

    Why did they do this “expensive” thing that requires scanners and buildings full of “humming” computers?

    Is this more expensive that just doing the manual process?

    well…. DOH.. looks like Walmart just went to an electronic check cashing system without checking the costs right?

    you know the answer…

    next…

    RFID – the SAME technology used in TOLL transponders…

    instead of manually scanning each item.. a computer will automatically scan as the items appear on the conveyor

    again.. it will require “complicated” and “expensive” technologies that some will say is more “error prone” than human transactions…

    If you and Bob continue to cite technology as the enemy.. as the reason why tolls are wrong… I think you seriously undercut your own arguments.

  42. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “YEP. And HOT lanes are sold as if they will reduce congestion and reduce pollution.”

    so.. basically you’re claiming that the EPA’s approach to non-attainment and the air pollution modeling is “lies”?

    I’m no fan of the EPA either but that’s a pretty strong claim.

    Can you provide cites to show that the EPA’s analysis of HOT lanes is wrong/flawed/lies?

    and just to be clear – it’s the Fed Department of Transportation that is providing the financing for HOT lanes.

    Is the FHWA and VDOT also part of the conspiracy?

  43. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    …””VDOT will agree to introduce congestion “

    is this true?

    let’s me clear.

    Are we relating factual info here or are we just throwing stuff up on the wall to see if it sticks?

    where exactly should we be applying the “garbage” word?

    I’m getting the impression that the anti HOT folks are not really interested in facts .. and in fact.. seem to be happy with misinformation…

    let’s debate on the merits…folks

  44. Bob Avatar
    Bob

    “Are we relating factual info here or are we just throwing stuff up on the wall to see if it sticks?”

    On the cost of toll collections, I’ve provided a link to the head of TxDOT discussing the exact cost of electronic toll collection. Not estimates, not metaphors or analogies. Carrying on about WalMart scanners is not exactly dealing in facts. Not only that, but I provided this information in a thread where you said, “first.. you need to provide the reference link…” on this very issue. I restrain myself from commenting further, but the information is here for those interested in reading.

    On non-competes, I cited the contract of the country’s most recent toll road — the latest stretch opened a week or two ago (SH130). What more do you want? Ok, here are some more cites. The most important example of non-compete is the 91 freeway. The county bought back the road by paying more than the cost of construction. Nice scam.

    FHWA/TTI report (PDF):
    – “The agreement between the state, Riverside County, Orange County, and the CPTC included a non-compete clause. This clause prohibited Caltrans or other public agencies from making any transportation improvements within a 1.5-mile corridor on either side of Route 91. As congestion levels increased on Route 91 and other freeways and roadways in the area, this non-compete clause proved to be very problematic. In 2002, the OCTA purchased the Route 91 Express Lanes from the private company. This purchase was based on legislation passed in 2002 that eliminated the non-compete clause and permitted public operation of the lanes. Both OCTA and Caltrans are moving forward with improvements in the corridor.”

    House Transportation Committee
    – “Indiana Toll Road… The concession agreement contains a non-compete clause that prohibits the State from building or improving any limited access highway within a 10-mile corridor on either side of the Toll Road.”

    – “Pocahontas Parkway (Virginia)… The agreement includes a non-compete clause that prohibits the State from building or improving any highway within a 6-mile area on each side of the Parkway.”

    – In Australia, the Cross City Tunnel and Lane Cove Tunnel both had non-competes. They both went bankrupt within 2 years of opening.

    So, yes, VDOT will agree to a non-compete because they have done so in the past. VDOT will do so because every contract has one. The issue is slightly complex because they are often disguised (like SH130’s) and sometimes they are not even written down. These tactics allow the tollers to say (lie) “We have no non-compete.”

    GAO Report PDF
    – “In contrast, an official with the Dulles Greenway’s private consortium said that while the consortium did not have a noncompete clause in its franchise agreement with Virginia, it understood that the state would not build a competing road.”

    Now, VDOT went ahead and improved Rt 7 “ahead of schedule” and the Greenway lost boatloads of cash: “According to a bond rating agency, these improvements adversely affected the traffic projected to use the toll road.” Same thing happened in Australia — the local transportation agency could not endure the public outrage at the artificial congestion. I already provided a link to the Australian case: the government paid a $25 million bribe to the tollers last week for the privilege of reducing congesting on nearby roads. A private company was paid money not for a service, but so a public agency could have permission to do its job.

    So I’ll end with this bit from Reuters. The non-compete in Colorado was discovered not by the media, but by a blogger:

    “SAN FRANCISCO, Aug 11 (Reuters) – A stretch of country highway near Denver has become an unlikely rallying point for opponents of the privatization and tolling of roads. The highway, known as Tower Road, was inexplicably slowed several years ago to 40 miles per hour from 55, and traffic lights appeared at three intersections….snip… Newly disclosed documents show that, as part of a non-compete agreement with the toll road authority 10 years ago, officials from the town of Commerce City agreed to intentionally slow down the road — now much busier with hotels and office buildings — to discourage drivers from skipping out on paying to use the toll highway.”

    Hey, guess what, people are now complaining in Texas about mysterious new traffic lights introduced next to the newly opened toll roads.

  45. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “I’ve provided a link to the head of TxDOT discussing the exact cost of electronic toll collection”

    Here’s what you said:

    “This is from a transcript of a Texas Department of Transportation meeting in 2004:

    “I’m David Powell, director of Information Technology and Operations for the Turnpike Authority Division. I don’t have an exact percentage as to what that is. I know on the total project budget there’s something like 5 percent for toll collection systems, and the operations the per transaction cost can be somewhere around a quarter apiece. A lot of that is labor to collect the transaction which people locally employed is a high component of that cost.”

    did I miss the link ?

    then you said:

    “The numbers from TxDOT annual reports show the 11c collection figure for electronic tolls.”

    Florida estimates a similar number – 10 cents.

    Tell me again why this is “outrageous”…

    Is it “outrageous” compared to other transaction costs – like WalMarts?

    What makes it unique and bad compared to any other electronic transaction?

  46. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “On non-competes, I cited the contract of the country’s most recent toll road — the latest stretch opened a week or two ago (SH130). What more do you want?”

    the truth. Didn’t you say that VDOT has done this?

    can you provide the link to back that up or are you just going to continue to throw stuff on the wall?

  47. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    …”Hey, guess what, people are now complaining in Texas about mysterious new traffic lights introduced next to the newly opened toll roads”

    more conspiracy theories?

    boy that REALLY gives your arguments credibility. 🙂

    right.. that’s what they did in downtown Richmond to make folks use the Powhite Parkway.. right?

  48. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Bob – do you think your opinion with respect to tolls and taxes (a question you did not answer) is representative of Virginians?

    I submit the following (duly referenced)

    ( excerpts and edited for space)

    When asked how they would like to pay for any transportation improvements in Hampton Roads, voters are strongly opposed to regional solutions, either through a regional gas tax or regional sales tax, and oppose a statewide gas tax as well.

    Finally, voters support tolls, either generally or only on new highways and bridges, buy a similar small margin. “We can see clear avenues of general agreement amongst voters here,” said Kidd. “Voters are clearly not interested in regional funding solutions unless they are tolls.

    [question] do youstrongly agree, somewhat agree, somewhat disagree, or strongly disagree with each way to fund transportation improvements in Hampton Roads.
    Srongly Agree:

    Through tolls only on new highways and bridges 23

    Through tolls on [all] highways and bridges 20

    An increase in the statewide sales tax 16

    An increase in the statewide gas tax 14

    sales tax just in the Hampton Roads Region 6

    gas tax just in the Hampton Roads region 4

    http://universityrelations.cnu.edu/news/2008/04_30_08tunnel.html

    and note this:

    “We can see clear avenues of general agreement amongst voters here,” said Kidd. “Voters are clearly not interested in regional funding solutions unless they are tolls.”

    “They might accept a statewide sales tax increase.” Respondents also expressed concern about how the money would be spent and by a wide margin support the idea of a “lockbox” to keep money raised for transportation from being diverted to other uses.”

    We all know that a Richmond Lockbox is not worth the paper it is written on.

    Do you think that is why folks support tolls over taxes by 2-1?

  49. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    With respect to who do you trust:

    “I trust elected and appointed officials to spend new funding only on transportation improvements in Hampton Roads.”

    Strongly agree 18
    Somewhat agree 26
    Somewhat disagree 20
    Strongly disagree 33

    ….”Only 16% of respondents agree or strongly agree with a regional gas tax compared to 83% who disagree or strongly disagree.”

    http://universityrelations.cnu.edu/news/2008/04_30_08tunnel.html

    so again I ask … Bob (we already know what RH supports)

    do you support taxes or tolls for new roads?

    and if you do support taxes.. how much of an increase do you think is needed?

    no rope a dope answers..(lots of words..to avoid the question) – answer the question on the table.. first.. taxes or tolls?

  50. Bob Avatar
    Bob

    “‘What more do you want?’ the truth. Didn’t you say that VDOT has done this? can you provide the link to back that up or are you just going to continue to throw stuff on the wall?”

    There are links to a U.S. House Transportation Committee report and a GAO report discussing two non-competes in Virginia (one explicit, the other implicit) in my post above. May I suggest a re-consideration of the ratio between typing and reading?

    “did I miss the link ?”

    More than just the link, apparently.

    As for why 11c/transaction cost is bad here’s why. Eleven cents is fine in isolation and compared to 30 cents for manual toll collection. E.g., if you’re running your WalMart and need to pay Visa 2.5% of your transactions, that’s just a cost of doing business because there’s no way around it. That is emphatically not the case with road funding. We’re talking about skimming off the top of millions of transactions vs. hiring a few bureaucrats to process the tax paperwork submitted by a handful of gasoline distributors in the state.

    And, of course, 11c is the low estimate. Later in the transcript, the TxDOT guy says: “And had I been thinking a little faster on my feet, I would have said that in the 10- to 15-cent range for electronic transactions.”

    It’s more than just the inefficiency of the transaction itself. It’s also the extra costs involved in the financing, profit margins, etc. It’s the big brother apparatus. It’s the market incentive to create congestion for those who aren’t paying (as seen in the seven non-compete examples documented above).

    The only halfway legitimate reason I’ve seen to accept this pile of, um, problems is a bizarre notion that balkanizing road funding will solve every problem. Well, it seems to me under that theory it would make more sense for NOVA to split off from the rest of the state.

  51. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Bob – if you’re gonna cite.. do the excerpt … that you want to use to demonstrate/prove your point and then provide the link and page number if it is a big report.

    you still have not answered the tax or toll question.

    It’s pretty clear to most folks that the gas tax is grossly inefficient and also ripe for abuses…

    is it more or less than tolls?

    Here’s the difference.

    I fyou are a toll road user and you are not happy with it you don’t use the road…

    if you are a VDOT customer and you are not happy with the road you can’t get your taxes back at all.

    Over and over, taxpayers show in polls that they do not trust the government to spend their road tax dollars wisely.

    You even say so yourself by showing how gas taxes are spent for other purposes..

    You complain about the Dulles Toll road.. funded in part by gas taxes.

    so which is it?

    tolls or taxes?

    anyone can find abuses for both taxes and tolls…

    unless you can demonstrate that tolls are worse.. I’m not sure what you are proving other than you prefer existing bogus road taxing schemes.

    and you still haven’t answered the question about how much additional road funding IS needed.. and what that means in terms of taxes…

  52. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: “the cash-paying SOLO drivers will force out the carpools”

    from the news:

    “State Department of Transportation officials called it a “perfect storm” of events that led to the closure of car-pool lanes to solo drivers because their presence helped slow travel times for buses and car-poolers to unacceptably low levels.”

    …

    “[toll road officials said] If traffic in the car-pool lanes slows below 45 mph, solo drivers are not allowed in the lanes. That happened for about three hours Saturday afternoon.”

    http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/government/story/351720.html

    another conspiracy theory shot to tatters…

    next…..

  53. Bob Avatar
    Bob

    That is indeed a useful article about the Tacoma HOT project, but I don’t think it makes the point you want it to make. The whole point (allegedly) of HOT lanes is to make them self-funding and suck money from drivers to pay for buses. If the tolling option is removed every time that the lanes become clogged with HOV-2 cars, I don’t see it as financially viable. Every day is a “perfect storm” in NOVA. By the way, federal tax dollars paid for the Tacoma HOT boondoggle. There is no incentive for them not to burn the cash.

    The difference between Tacoma and NOVA is that we’re already HOV-3. Tacoma can bump the carpool requirement from 2 to 3 to “weather the storm.” NOVA can’t. By the way, HOV is an incredibly dumb, dangerous and inefficient way to run a road too.

    Just found this piece from today’s Sydney Morning Herald which mentions another non-compete involving our good friends at Transurban. This is the first time I’ve seen a mass transit project triggering the non-compete:

    “In the old days… A ”Public Sector Comparator” was required, that is, a document showing, publicly, the cost of the various options.

    For instance, do we build a new power station by selling a concession to a consortium which raises finance at X price, or do we sell it and lease it back this asset using X structure? Or do we simply issue state-government bonds and tender the job to the best bidder?

    Just one example of where disclosure is required is in the case of the NSW Government recently announcing it would build a rail line in the north-west of Sydney.

    That lies in the catchment area of the M2 Hills Motorway and there are indemnity clauses in the M2 contract which mean potentially hundreds of millions of dollars in penalties could have to be paid to the company which owns the motorway concession, Transurban. It’s all about competing infrastructure damaging project revenues.

    We know this thanks to a leak.

    The contract, as with every other toll road contract in NSW and Victoria (except the Cross-City Tunnel), remains secret.”

  54. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I agree completely that in any transaction between the government and a private entity that there needs to be substantial transparency and accountability and further agree that there are serious deficiencies in same with regard to toll roads.

    with regards to financial viability – they’ve (the State) given a business the opportunity to use market forces but they HAVE capped their profits and they have capped their ability to remove carpools.

    The arrangement is very similar to what Va has done to protect Va ratepayers with regard to Dominion.

    Are there problems? You betcha. Is Virginia going to run Dominion out of the State and take over providing power because Dominion is an evil profit-pursuing enterprise than cannot be trusted to not screw over ratepayers?

    You better hope not…. the last thing Virginia needs is an electricity provider version of VDOT.

    We have similar concerns and issues with regard to Virginia and the Ports and the Rails with intermodal facilities subsidies.

    You use the potential for problems to attack the concept – as a reason why the concept is wrong – which is an evasion of a discussion on the merits IMHO.

    Toll Roads and HOT lanes are in use Worldwide and yet you cite ..essentially a grand conspiracy theory as to why … tsk tsk…

    you assume coordinated worldwide corruption as the reason why toll roads are built – as opposed to an honest believe by public officials and transportation professionals that they are a valid option.

    Just as they are a valid option for the CBBT – which you run away from in terms of the merits of the concept.

    Do you think the CBBT is a conspiracy to screw over folks that “have no choice” but to use “monopolistic” infrastructure?

    I asked you if you thought it was wrong to build it as a toll road and that it should have been built with tax dollars and your response is verbal hand-waving….more evasion of a discussion on the merits.

    That’s why I asked you if you think we need more roads and if so.., is your preferred approach taxes rather than roads.,

    I also don’t think you buttress your views at all when you base them on conspiracy theories…

    hit and run.. paint ball tactics and a refusal to address the fundamental issue of tolls vs taxes tells me that you really are not interested in the merits at all.

Leave a Reply

Read More