Faithless Electors, Faithless Congresspersons

by Jim McCarthy

“With what shall I fix it, dear Liza, dear Liza, with what shall I fix it, dear Liza, with what?” May 30th is National Hole in the Bucket Day offering the states and Congress the opportunity to fix the hole in the bucket of Presidential electoral processes and procedures.

At present, members of Congress are unrestrained from voting to accept or reject the certified state electoral votes and slates of electors for the Electoral College. This hole in the bucket has largely been deflected by emphasis upon election integrity, a meme for voter fraud by the voters themselves (or, occasionally groups).

The names of presidential electors may or may not appear on the ballot in most states; voters by and large believe they are casting a vote directly for the president and vice president. The U.S. Supreme Court (Chiafalo v Washington, 2020) unanimously ruled that states have the constitutional authority to force electors to vote in accordance with their state’s popular vote. The opinion, while recognizing state power in this regard, does not require states to prevent faithless electors. At the time of the decision, 33 states, including Virginia, had adopted legislation binding electors.

On January 6th and 7th of 2021, both chambers of Congress assembled to affirm the results of the November 2020 presidential election as certified by the fifty states with respect to the popular vote and slates of electors named under the procedures of each state. On those two days, 147 members of Congress, including 4 House members from Virginia, voted to reject the submissions of Arizona and Pennsylvania. Their action could hardly be deemed symbolic since there were two separate votes meaning the rejections were of a more comprehensive nature.

Presently, the four Virginia House members are on the campaign trail seeking reelection, making speeches, and conducting Q&A sessions with constituents. No media reports identify a reply to the question as to why they voted to reject the two states’ results. Had the faithless members of Congress succeeded in scraping the submitted presidential results of more states, at what point would Virginia’s four have voted to reject the results from the Commonwealth? A collateral question is whether the four would accept state or federal legislation requiring them to vote for the certified presidential results from all states including their own.

In addition to the oath sworn by members of Congress, the Constitution (Art. 4, Sec. 1) holds that “Full faith and credit shall be given in each state to the public acts, records, and judicial proceedings of every other state.” Section 2 provides that “citizens of each state shall be entitled to all privileges and immunities of citizens in the several states.” “The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government.”

Originalists may parse these provisions to conclude that there is no language specifically requiring members of Congress to vote for the certified results offered by states in presidential elections. The “public acts” and “records” of “every other state” to receive “full faith and credit” seems reasonably clear as an official obligation under oath to accept the vote counts and slates of electors from every state.

Election integrity advocates are generally agreed that jail time for voter fraud by ordinary citizens is appropriate but are silent when members of Congress engage in a similar behavior. Of course, a direct solution would be the elimination of the Electoral College. However, in the 91st Congress (1969-1971), the House passed a joint resolution 338-70 to abolish that procedure only to see the measure fail to receive a vote in the Senate.

The hole in the bucket with respect to faithless members of Congress remains unplugged. The four Virginia naysayers are keeping their powder dry as there seems to be no public demand to learn the reasons for their votes in January. It’s one more example of political leadership unwilling to advance the integrity expected of it by the citizenry – except, of course, that integrity that is applied to the citizens themselves.

A “revoltin’ development” as Chester Riley would say.

Jim McCarthy is a retired New York City attorney living in Virginia.


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43 responses to “Faithless Electors, Faithless Congresspersons”

  1. VaPragamtist Avatar
    VaPragamtist

    “A collateral question is whether the four would accept state or federal legislation requiring them to vote for the certified presidential results from all states including their own.”

    I would hope not. Regardless of the issue, no one should be legally compelled to vote a certain way. Ethically, morally, logically required–yes. But to impose a governmental mandate limiting choice in voting runs contrary to the idea of having a vote in the first place.

    1. James McCarthy Avatar
      James McCarthy

      33 jurisdictions including VA have legislation requiring electors to vote for the candidate with the most popular votes. The freedom to which you allude is in the hands of the citizens.

      1. VaPragamtist Avatar
        VaPragamtist

        I’m sure you can see the difference between this law–which amounts to essentially the electors following a binding referendum given to them from their constituents, the electorate within their states–and mandate that a member of congress vote to certify results from all states. The former represents the will of the constituency while the latter compels a vote based on interests from the outside. Bottom-up vs top-down.

        1. James McCarthy Avatar
          James McCarthy

          The electors are bound by state law not by the constituency. Members of Congress have the ministerial duty to accept or reject the certified results from the certificates submitted by the states.

          Unlike state electors, members of Congress are not bound to the results submitted by the states. Thus, a hole in the bucket between the will of the people, the states, and the Congress.

          1. VaPragamtist Avatar
            VaPragamtist

            It’s not a ministerial duty, nor is it a hole in the bucket. It’s a check on the system.

            You’re also conflating “will of the constituency” with “will of the people” as a whole.

  2. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
    f/k/a_tmtfairfax

    Darn you, Haner. Don’t you know that a double standard applies? Anything a Democrat does is not wrong and should not even be mentioned.

    Sort of like the massive silence in response to the fact that Biden’s new press secretary, Karine Jean-Pierre, has claimed that both the 2016 presidential and 2018 Georgia gubernatorial elections were stolen. But this is just like the Post missing Northam’s blackface incident(s) in two successive election cycles while sending an army of reporters to Alabama to cover a Senate election.

    1. James McCarthy Avatar
      James McCarthy

      Nah, the article is nothing like the whatabouts you cite.

      1. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
        f/k/a_tmtfairfax

        My point is that you use a double standard. Those Democrats who challenge election results by challenging other states’ electors are doing/have done the same thing about which you object when done by GOP members. Your argument makes sense only if it applies across the board. One would think that you might simply have written, “good point, it must apply across the board.”

        One would also think that Biden, who has ranted against those who claim the 2020 election was stolen (sans evidence) would not have appointed a press secretary who did the same thing about elections in 2016 and 2018.

        1. James McCarthy Avatar
          James McCarthy

          You are ignoring the crucial difference between some members of Congress that complained about election results versus 147 who actually voted to reject results. That difference is not only quantitative but qualitatively distinguishable. It’s not about political partisanship. Refusal by members of Congress to accord full faith and credit to the acts of others states is the issue.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Equating what some press secretary said (in error and other outright lies from Trumps’s press secretaries) or what the media reports or not, equating that to what Trump and his supporters attempted to take over this country illustrates the lunacy on the right to stand by and do nothing even when the country known as the USA is threatened with dictatorship.

      It leads me to believe that Conservatives in this country would indeed have gone along with Trump had he succeeded.

      So much for those who yammer on and on about the Constitution or the Founding Fathers… all talk – when the time comes… stand aside and let the country get taken over by would-be dictators.

      1. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        ” … the USA is threatened with dictatorship.”

        What absolute nonsense. A totally incoherent comment.

        The USA has been close to dictatorship under FDR but not since.

  3. Fred Costello Avatar
    Fred Costello

    By “reasonably clear as an official obligation under oath to accept the vote counts and slates of electors from every state”, is Jim McCarthy stating that the electors must vote from every state combined (the national popular vote) or does he mean “from the his own state”?

    1. James McCarthy Avatar
      James McCarthy

      No. Reasonably clear that every member of Congress under Art. IV has a duty to accord full faith and credit to the election results and elector slates from other states.

      1. emjak Avatar

        The Full Faith and Credit Clause requires each State to give full faith and credit to “the public Acts, Records, and judicial Proceedings of every other State . . .” It imposes an obligation on each and every one of the individual States. It does not impose any obligation on Members of Congress.

        1. James McCarthy Avatar
          James McCarthy

          You may be correct with respect to the application of that clause. How do you respond to the US guarantee of a Republican form of government to every state along with full faith and credit. If every state accords FF and credit to every other state, by what authority may 4 VA members of Congress reject the election results of two other states.

          That is the hole in the bucket.

          1. emjak Avatar

            The National Archives has information about “Legal Provisions Relevant to the Electoral College Process” at https://www.archives.gov/electoral-college/provisions

            Under Title 3 of the U.S. Code, Section 15, any Senator or Representative has the authority to raise an objection to a State’s certification of it electoral votes.
            Any such objection must be in writing, and if at least one Senator and one Representative sign such an objection, the objection is referred to the Senate and the House of Representatives to vote (separately) on the objection.

            U.S. Code Title 3, Section 15 addresses the legal procedure, but does not spell out what constitutes a valid objection to a State’s certification of its electoral votes.

            Article IV, Section 4 does not make an unqualified guarantee to every State of ensuring a republican form of government. The guarantee is linked to protecting States against invasion and domestic violence. Any written objection to a State’s certification of its electoral votes signed by at least one Senator and one Representative — even if rejected by votes in the Senate, the House of Representatives, or both — does not rise to the level of invasion or domestic violence referred to in Article IV, Section 4.

            Any “hole in the bucket” would have to be addressed by a constitutional amendment or a statutory revision of U.S. Code Title 3, Section 15.

          2. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            No argument was raised about insurrection or rebellion only IV’s civic prescriptions. Based upon the SCOTUS decision, states may impose a duty upon Congressional members to refrain from challenging election results from home state and other states. TY for clarifying for other commenters on the legal differences between the mere complaint in 2016 versus actual votes to reject results in 2021 including no requirement to state a basis for objecting. Voters, IMO, are entitled to an explanation.

          3. emjak Avatar

            Under the Supremacy Clause (U.S. Constitution, Article VI, Clause 2) as interpreted by the federal courts, the official acts of federal officials (elected or appointed) and federal employees cannot be controlled by State law, unless a duly enacted federal statute expressly authorizes State law to be applied to such official acts. The State of Virginia cannot pass a statute that controls or restricts the official acts of its U.S. Senators or its House Representatives.

            Voters don’t need any State or federal law to demand an explanation from their Senators or Representatives, and voters can always decide whether to hold them politically accountable at the polls at the next election.

          4. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            So, you do not think votes to reject the election results from states should require an explanation under the earlier legal analysis you offered? SCOTUS has ruled that states can require electors to vote for the candidates receiving the most popular votes. The supremacy clause analysis fails in that instance and the Constitution (see 10th Amendment) provides latitude for states to enact such restrictions. Both chambers of Congress possess rule making authority also. Certainly Congress has the authority to enact remedial legislation to fix the hole in the bucket.

          5. emjak Avatar

            I interpret your latest comment as raising four points, which I will address.

            1. My earlier comments did not express or imply any opinion on whether Senators and Representatives should be legally required to explain their objections to a State’s certification of its electoral votes. I merely discussed the procedural provisions of U.S. Code, Title 3, Section 15, which do not require an objection to include an argument in support of the objection (indeed, the statute expressly exclude such an argument). Also, in the second paragraph of my third comment to you I specifically noted that the voters have the political option of asking their Senators and Representatives to explain their actions and can hold them politically accountable at the next election if the voters are dissatisfied with their explanations or actions.

            2. The Supreme Court ruling that a State can require its State electors to do certain things is irrelevant to the Supremacy Clause issue. The Supreme Court’s recognition that States have authority to regulate State electors does mean or imply that the Supreme Court is holding or suggesting an exception to the Supremacy Clause exists if a State tries to control the actions of U.S. Senators and House Representatives with respect to electoral vote counting under U.S. Code, Title 3, Section 15.

            3. Your reference to the Tenth Amendment adds nothing to your overall argument. Nothing in the Tenth Amendment overrides or supersedes the Supremacy Clause. And, as I noted in my third comment to you, the federal case law on the Supremacy Clause makes clear that States cannot control or restrict the official actions of federal officials (elected or appointed) or federal employees.

            4. I never said or implied Congress cannot address the issue. In fact, my second comment to you specifically noted that Congress can pass legislation to revise U.S. Code, Title 3, Section 15.

          6. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            So, in sum your belief is that due to the supremacy clause states cannot require members of Congress to accept the certified presidential election results of member home states or other states. Since that proposition has never been tested, the reservation of powers in 9th and 10th offer opportunity. Thus, recognizing the authority of states to require electors to be faithful, state requiring members of Congress to be faithful is merely consistent. There is no suggestion that states are imposing such requirement upon other states, only reinforcing comity of FF and credit as well as the guarantee of Republican governance.

            Please cite the SCt cases to which you refer on the clarity that states cannot control or restrict actions of federal officials.

          7. emjak Avatar

            Two examples:

            Sperry v. Florida, 373 U.S. 379 (1963) (holding that Florida State Bar cannot invoke State power to prevent unauthorized practice of law to interfere with U.S. Patent Office’s policy of allowing lawyer not licensed to practice law in Florida to appear in patent proceedings on behalf of patent applicants in Florida)

            Hancock v. Train, 426 U.S. 167, 178-179 (1976) (stating that the activities of the Federal Government are free from regulation by any State unless Congress affirmatively declares otherwise by statute)

          8. Follow-up to my earlier citation of two Supreme Court decisions.

            Today (June 21, 2022), the Supreme Court issued a unanimous opinion on the Supremacy Clause and how it prevents States from passing laws to regulate the United States government, interfering with or controlling its operations, or regulating its dealings with contractors.

            See United States v. Washington (June 21,2022), slip opinion available at
            https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/21pdf/21-404_i5ea.pdf

  4. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    So the idea with Conservatives here seems to be that if it happened in 2016, then again , it’s okay, just politics as usual.

    I’m not convinced at all that 2016 was comparable to what happened this time.

    But denial that the last time is a threat to be recognized and addressed especially when quite a number of candidates are also saying the election was stolen – boggles the mind.

    Make no mistake, Mr. Trump and his supporters well recognized this flaw and had it not been for a few who stood up – it would likely have succeeded.

    And really, it can again. The rest of the world has taken note. They realize that America too is vulnerable to strongman dictators.

  5. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    How about Russian roulette? Seems as good as faithless electors. Plus, there’s the tout… money, money, money.

  6. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    Do you have the list of Democrats who voted no in 2016 handy? Feel the same way about them? Or is this just more keep-one-eye-blind stuff…..

    From Newsweek:
    According to a C-SPAN recording of the joint session that took place four years ago, the following House Democrats made objections:

    Jim McGovern (D-Mass.) objected to Alabama’s votes.
    Jamie Raskin (D-Md.) objected to Florida’s votes.
    Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.) objected to Georgia’s votes.
    Raul Grijalva (D-Ariz.) objected to North Carolina’s votes.
    Sheila Jackson Lee (D-Texas) objected to the votes from North Carolina in addition to votes from South Carolina and Wisconsin. She also stood up and objected citing “massive voter suppression” after Mississippi’s votes were announced.
    Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) brought up allegations of Russian interference in the election and malfunctioning voting machines when she objected following the announcement of Michigan’s votes.
    Maxine Waters (D-Calif) rose and said, “I do not wish to debate. I wish to ask ‘Is there one United States senator who will join me in this letter of objection?’” after the announcement of Wyoming’s votes.

    None of the four Rs will lose one single vote over this. You and those others upset would vote against them anyway. Non issue.

    1. James McCarthy Avatar
      James McCarthy

      Unconvincing whataboutisms!!! The procedures for a vote on rejection require a Senator’s motion. That did not happen in 2016. It would be nice to have some quotes from the four Virginians. If Dems behave similarly, it will be an issue.

      1. dave schutz Avatar
        dave schutz

        “jail time for voter fraud by ordinary citizens is appropriate but are silent when members of Congress engage in a similar behavior. Of course, a direct solution would be the elimination of the Electoral College. ” I have been and remain a backer of the Electoral College – partly to ensure that small state interests don’t get submerged and partly to avoid incentivizing party organizations in large one-party states from fraudulently running up their totals. My own favorite reform would be to allocate the electoral vote of each Congressional district to the Presidential winner in that district, and to allocate the Senator electoral votes to the winner of the state overall. Retains the pressure to heed the interests of the several states, but means that Dem districts in Reep states, and Reep districts in Dem states, still matter.

        1. James McCarthy Avatar
          James McCarthy

          It would be interesting to view a list of small state interests that are protected by the Electoral College. As it stands, CA with two Senators has a population equivalent ot that of several states. The EC distorts the original proportions contemplated by the Constitution.

          1. dave schutz Avatar
            dave schutz

            Current EC gives Calif Reeps and Fla Dems no voice what-so-ever in the elections. My favored reform would give some salience to these minority parties, while not giving Cook County Dems an incentive to vote every grave for the last five years… (Cook County, America’s greatest exponent of Ancestor Worship…)

          2. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            The EC membership of 538 electors reflects the House and Senate numbers for each state along with DC’s 3 electors. Both CA and FL would have a voice in presidential elections based upon the popular vote not distorted by the EC. It’s not about CA Reeps or FL Dems. It is about the will of the voters including independents.

          3. dave schutz Avatar
            dave schutz

            James McC, you clearly are less worried than I about what I see as the enormous incentives for relatively untrammeled state parties in states with strong majorities for one of the party to … put a thumb on the scale … when so doing might tilt the Presidency. That’s okay, but you should at least address the idea.

          4. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            Voters vote for President and Vice President. State laws confer authority upon political parties to name electors. Cut out the middle man EC and let the voters decide.

          5. VaPragamtist Avatar
            VaPragamtist

            Voters vote for electors. Electors vote for president and VP. We live in a republic, not a democracy.

          6. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            The “republic” means government by representatives. In VA. Electors are not named on the ballot. Electors in most cases are required to vote for the President and Vice President receiving the most votes in the state. Unless, of course, members of Congress reject those results including certified slates of electors. Yes, it is true that the US is not a direct democracy but when the elected representative are free to accept or reject the voters, we have neither a republic nor a democracy.

          7. VaPragamtist Avatar
            VaPragamtist

            “The ‘republic’ means government by representatives. In VA. Electors are not named on the ballot.”

            Electors are the representatives selected and, while not specifically identified by name, are listed as who voters vote for on the ballot (see https://montva.com/docs/default-source/voter-registration/voter-news/2020/sample-ballot-full.pdf ).

            “Electors in most cases are required to vote for the President and Vice President receiving the most votes in the state.”

            This would be the equivalent to a binding referendum, whereby representatives are required to vote according to the will of a majority of their constituents.

            “Unless, of course, members of Congress reject those results including certified slates of electors.”

            This is a different step in the process, a final check on the system.

            “when the elected representative are free to accept or reject the voters, we have neither a republic nor a democracy.”

            That’s exactly what a democratic republic is. But representatives are not free from consequences of their votes, especially public criticism and opposition to their re-election.

      2. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        There were faithless electors in 2016, they refused to cast a ballot of SoS Clinton. The only case of “whataboutism” is your entire partisan post.

    2. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      “In 2004, Sen. Barbara Boxer (D-CA) and Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones (D-OH) stopped the counting of electoral votes with a formal objection. Boxer said that while she did not aim to overturn President Bush’s victory, she felt the need to speak up after failing to act after the 2000 election. Boxer used her objection to “debate election irregularities” which allowed a handful of Democrats to call for every vote to be counted. Boxer remarked, “If we can help overturn an election in Ukraine, why can’t we take a few minutes to debate our own election irregularities?”

      https://www.allsides.com/blog/past-electoral-college-vote-objections-democrats-explained

      1. James McCarthy Avatar
        James McCarthy

        It is interesting to note that the article makes no mention of political party affiliations concerning votes to reject state electoral results. Notwithstanding, commenters engaged in employing partisan politics as responses to the hole in the bucket. Too much paranoia pervades this space.

  7. Paul Sweet Avatar
    Paul Sweet

    The congressional district method would be the fairest way of allotting electoral votes – one electoral vote goes to the winner in each congressional district, and two to the statewide winner. Only Maine & Nebraska use this method.

    Giving all of a state’s electoral votes to the national winner is a bad idea for several reasons. First, a smaller state’s electoral votes would be given to the winner in a few large states. Why should people in “flyover country” bother voting if only NY & California votes really counted? Second, if all states did this the popular vote winner would receive 100% of the electoral votes, even if he or she didn’t get a majority, but only got 1% more votes than the second place candidate.

    1. James McCarthy Avatar
      James McCarthy

      Imagine a system with no electoral votes.

      1. Paul Sweet Avatar
        Paul Sweet

        That would take a constitutional amendment.

        1. James McCarthy Avatar
          James McCarthy

          Such is an improvement over the hole in the bucket.

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