Equity: Equal Outcomes or Equal Opportunity?

Photo credit: Richmond.com

by James A. Bacon

University of Virginia President Jim Ryan begs to differ with critics of “Diversity, Equity & Inclusion.” The term “equity” has become a lightning rod in the debate over DEI, he writes in an essay recently published in The Chronicle of Higher Education. Somehow, he muses, people got the idea that equity means “equal outcomes” as opposed to “equal opportunity.”

“I have no idea where this idea came from, but it ought to be rejected out of hand,” he says. “I know of no college that assures equal outcomes.”

Where, oh where, could critics of UVa’s Diversity, Equity & Inclusion policies have gotten the idea that equity stands for equal outcomes?

Perhaps they got it from “Audacious Future: Commitment Required,” which summarized the 2020 findings of UVa’s Racial Equity Task Force, established by Ryan. The document was endorsed by the Board of Visitors, and never has Ryan, the Board, or anyone else in authority at UVa distanced themselves from its goals and objectives.

The task force report makes abundantly clear what “equity” means to its authors (my bold face):

We define racial equity as a system in which racial identity neither predicts nor determines one’s access, success, or influence within the University of Virginia — where people of any racial background have an equal probability of thriving….

Equity demands that we not only include a diverse population, but we reimagine how the institution operates so that all people are equally likely, statistically, to join, to contribute, to thrive, and to exercise authority, influence, and governance in determining the shape and future of the institution.

In the context of a report about racial equity, how does one determine if “all people are equally likely, statistically” to thrive at UVa? In theory, there is a wide variety of metrics that could be tracked. “Audacious Future” lists these:

In practice, UVa has settled for what can be readily measured — the racial composition of students, faculty and staff. To remedy the systemic racism that the Racial Equity Task Force sees still haunting Virginia, “Audacious Future” sets a goal for UVa to “recruit, admit, and support an undergraduate population that reflects the racial and economic demographics of the state of Virginia.” UVa now tracks the number of undergraduates, graduate students, faculty and staff on its Diversity Dashboard.

There is a broad gap between Task Force’s goal and reality. The Black population of Virginia is 19.1%. The percentage of Blacks at UVa is 6.8%. In other words, the long-term goal, never disavowed by Ryan, is to triple the percentage of Blacks at UVa. Unfortunately, the percentage of Blacks scoring “advanced” in Virginia’s Standards of Learning English exams — the K-12 elite that would quality for UVa-level work — is 6.7%. Making matters more difficult, UVa finds itself competing against virtually every other university in the country for the finite pool of high-achieving Black students.

Ryan finds himself in a ticklish situation as the U.S. Supreme Court prepares to hand down a ruling that is widely expected to prohibit the consideration of race as a factor in university admissions and the Youngkin administration seeks to redefine DEI as Diversity, Opportunity & Inclusion. Ryan is trying to thread the needle between his commitment to “social justice” and the impending majority of Youngkin-appointed Board of Visitors members by redefining the polarizing concept of “equity” in benign terms — in other words, by keeping the same goals but changing the language.

As I wrote yesterday, Ryan’s justification of “diversity” and “inclusion” sound reasonable enough in the abstract, although there are ample grounds to question how those concepts are implemented at UVa. He creates additional problems for himself when trying to persuade readers that “equity” does not mean what critics think it does. He writes:

A more accurate and appropriate definition of equity is an effort to ensure equal opportunity, not equal results. The term recognizes that not everyone starts in the same place or is in the same circumstances, so treating people exactly alike is not always fair — and not always consistent with providing equal opportunities. How far a college goes to remove barriers to success will always be subject to debate, but the basic idea should not be controversial.

For example, offering a sign-language interpreter for someone who is deaf or a ramp for someone in a wheelchair are hardly radical gestures. The same is true of the most conspicuous example of equity in higher education, which is hiding in plain sight: financial aid for students from lower-income families. Not everyone pays the same price to attend college, which means not everyone is being treated equally. Financial aid is nonetheless equitable because it ensures that qualified students are not barred from attending because they happened to be born into a family that lacks the resources to pay full tuition. Students who receive financial aid are not promised to graduate with honors or even to graduate; like every other student, they are offered a chance to succeed. Those opposed to equity should explain why need-based financial aid, which is well accepted and widely celebrated, should be jettisoned.

No one — certainly not The Jefferson Council — objects to sign language interpreters, or wheelchair ramps, or need-based financial aid. We favor creating opportunities for meritorious students who would otherwise be denied the opportunity to attend UVa. Insofar as needy students come disproportionately from minority communities, minorities will benefit disproportionately from such financial aid. We’re fine with that. What we object to are programs that explicitly benefit individuals on the basis of their racial status rather than their individual life circumstances.

Black and brown people have no monopoly on hardship or disadvantage — more than a tenth of Virginia’s population lives in Appalachia, a region known for widespread poverty and limited opportunity. Not far from Charlottesville, thousands of mostly White subsistence farmers were evicted from their land in the 1930s to make way for the Blue Ridge Parkway. When I attended in the early 1970s, the university still retained a memory of that injustice. The name Shiflett, a common name among the evictees, was synonymous with the region’s poor White working class. The Shifletts (who were displaced from their land far more recently than the oft-invoked Monacan Indians) have fallen down the memory hole. No one weeps for them. No one seeks to right their historical wrong.

I cannot speak for others, but I can say that The Jefferson Council is not “opposed to equity” per se — we’re opposed to a definition of equity that seeks to engineer an “equal probability” of racial group outcomes in an elite institution, which by its nature, is highly selective in whom it admits. We support scholarships that help academically meritorious students attend the University, regardless of race. We oppose admitting some students on the basis of race who displace others, more academically qualified, who would gain more from a UVa education.

UVa cannot ameliorate through its admissions policies the cumulative impact of slavery, segregation, racism, welfare-state dependency, failed schools, single-family households, social dysfunction and other factors that have held back Black academic achievement in Virginia. In trying to do so, UVa creates new problems for itself — and the students it purports to help.

We’ll dig deeper into this issue in a future post.


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152 responses to “Equity: Equal Outcomes or Equal Opportunity?”

  1. M. Purdy Avatar
    M. Purdy

    What you quoted still doesn’t make the case that equity means equal outcomes. It defies common sense that it would.

    1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      OK. What then are “fair” outcomes?

      Georgetown University: Equity: A measure of fair treatment, opportunities, and outcomes across race, gender, class, and other dynamics. https://guides.library.georgetown.edu/antiracism/glossary

      The basic argument in this commentary section as in all similar posts appears to be that:

      (1) Jim Bacon, I and others see what we believe is a spurning of objective standards of merit. We instead want to raise poor people to meet those standards by better supports early in life.

      (2) the left interprets any racial imbalance in legal, academic, or economic outcomes as proof of institutional racism and as grounds for directly imposing racially “equitable” outcomes. But they point to statistics to measure equity, which yields de facto quotas. Which they deny.

      Now we have the concepts of “fair” and “equitable” and ask those two groups for definitions. Those definitions will never align when imposed at the college level.

      I have sought for 15 years in my public writings to offer policies to improve the educations and health of poor minority children. Indeed those have been my two major themes.

      The left has either challenged the problem or challenged my solutions, which broadly are (1) better pedagogy in urban public schools based on a proven urban charter school model from NYC and (2) better healthcare at the primary care level based on a proven model in Maryland.

      The left here opposes both, but seems never to offer their own solutions except for more money for education in systems that have failed generations of urban poor and no solutions at all for poor healthcare. And they discover an otherwise hidden love for local government in obstructing those proven methods for mitigating long-standing and absolutely fundamental problems.

      That gap between those two worldviews has proven pretty much unbridgeable, at least among regular commenters.

    2. WayneS Avatar

      If ‘equity’ is not about trying to bring about equal outcomes, then what is it about?

      How does it differ from equality?

      1. M. Purdy Avatar
        M. Purdy

        I’ll use my laptop example for the hundredth time…equality is the application of a rule on an equal basis. So let’s say, as a rule, City College doesn’t provide laptops for incoming freshmen. All are subject equally to the same rule. Equity is ensuring that the kids who don’t have the means to buy a laptop are offered one so as not to put them at a disadvantage. The rule is no longer applied equally, it’s applied equitably to take into account means.

        1. James McCarthy Avatar
          James McCarthy

          They cannot or will not hear you.

        2. WayneS Avatar

          Okay. So for you, “equity” represents an opportunity to implement additional welfare programs. Why didn’t you just say that months ago?

    3. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      OK. What then are “fair” outcomes?

      Georgetown University: Equity: A measure of fair treatment, opportunities, and outcomes across race, gender, class, and other dynamics. https://guides.library.georgetown.edu/antiracism/glossary

      The basic argument in this commentary section as in all similar posts appears to be that:

      (1) Jim Bacon, I and others see what we believe is a spurning of objective standards of merit. We instead want to raise poor people to meet those standards by better supports early in life.

      (2) the left interprets any racial imbalance in legal, academic, or economic outcomes as proof of institutional racism and as grounds for directly imposing racially “equitable” outcomes. But they point to statistics to measure equity, which yields de facto quotas. Which they deny.

      Now we have the concepts of “fair” and “equitable” and ask those two groups for definitions. Those definitions will never align when imposed at the college level.

      I have sought for 15 years in my public writings to offer policies to improve the educations and health of poor minority children. Indeed those have been my two major themes.

      The left has either challenged the problem or challenged my solutions, which broadly are (1) better pedagogy in urban public schools based on a proven urban charter school model from NYC and (2) better healthcare at the primary care level based on a proven model in Maryland.

      The left here opposes both, but seems never to offer their own solutions except for more money for education in systems that have failed generations of urban poor and no solutions at all for poor healthcare. And they discover an otherwise hidden love for local government in obstructing those proven methods for mitigating long-standing and absolutely fundamental problems.

      That gap between those two worldviews has proven pretty much unbridgeable, at least among regular commenters.

      1. M. Purdy Avatar
        M. Purdy

        “OK. What then are “fair” outcomes?” We would need to see the definition of “fair” outcomes. What I don’t see is “equal” outcomes discussed. I agree with your other two points for the most part. I’m not opposed to breaking down the traditional model of education for better results. I’m for pay for performance, standardized testing, and school choice (within reason). Nor am I opposed to anything you’ve proposed in healthcare. What I do oppose is this idea that improving the lot of poor or marginalized folks necessarily means that universities, govt. and business shouldn’t do their bit to help increase upward mobility. Why are these two things mutually exclusive? What are these supposed “bad outcomes” of having institutions adopt DEI?

        1. Tom B Avatar

          Fair is for children. You get a cookie and you get a cookie, and …
          Justice is for adults. You earned a cookie, and you earned a cookie, and …

          1. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            In what sense does anyone “earn” being born into a family with means, being born without disability, being white, being male, etc.?

          2. Tom B Avatar

            Your question is senseless. Earning requires effort on one’s part. An accident of birth requires no effort.

          3. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Senseless?! That’s it, you’ve got it, man! An accident of birth requires no effort. But perhaps society should consider if accidents of birth should be rectified. In terms of fairness.

          4. Tom B Avatar

            So an accident of birth requires no effort, but it does convey guilt and obligations onto the recipient.

            Let’s complete the morality play – what obligations does being born black and poor convey onto that child?

          5. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Guilt, no. Obligations, yes. It’s part of the social contract, not a morality play.

          6. Tom B Avatar

            What kind of social contract says that if I work hard and achieve success I have to feel guilty, and I can’t give it to my kids? Oh, the Marxist kind?

            And the other half of my question goes unanswered.

          7. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            I thought the second half of your question was pointless. And you’re smart enough to know the social contract I’m talking about, which is decidedly not Marxist but purely American.

          8. Tom B Avatar

            What do YOU mean by the social contract? You’re the one who brought it up.

            The second half is pointless only if:
            1- morality is one-sided
            2- no effort on their part could ameliorate their condition.
            Both those are wrong, so it is meaningful.

        2. WayneS Avatar

          You should probably be asking Georgetown University about the definition of “fair outcomes”. After all, they are the ones who use it in their definition of equity.

          1. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Yet nowhere does it say “equal outcomes.” That’s a gloss that folks put on it to make it unacceptable.

          2. WayneS Avatar

            The same “gloss” the Vice President of the United States put on it.

            And we really won’t know whether or not Georgetown’s definition involves equal outcomes until/unless we know what they mean by “fair outcomes”.

  2. Fred Costello Avatar
    Fred Costello

    The key question is: In each “Audacious Future” category, what measure will be used to determine if equity has been achieved.

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Jury? Works for the justice system, right?

    2. James McCarthy Avatar
      James McCarthy

      Kinda like pornography: you’ll know it when you see it.

  3. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    “equal probability of thriving” Can this really be measured? I don’t think so. How do you quantify the probability of success in college? There are so many factors that go into this. One key metric missing is everyday life. I seem to remember that as steering point for how I was doing in college. What is the magic number that declares your going to be a success?

    1. M. Purdy Avatar
      M. Purdy

      Yes, you can come up with indicators, which they’ve done, and then run an analysis on the relevant inputs.

      1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead

        The indicators only provide a broad set of metrics to measure the collective. What about the individual?

        1. M. Purdy Avatar
          M. Purdy

          The individual would also be measured on that set of metrics. It’s like any wellness indicator, i.e. a range of factors, and levels of success within those factors, with a success rate based on a weighted score. Demographic analysis is done much the same way.

          1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            What would you recommend be done with the results of such analysis?

          2. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            It would demonstrate the “success” of equity programs on their own merit. I thought you folks were all about measuring results and objectivity, but now you’re presented with a chance to do so, and you’re wondering what to do with the results? You’d just rather declare DEI a failure and move on?

          3. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            A DEI bureaucracy has been in place at UVa for two years.

            Give them five, and see what difference they, as opposed to the overwhelmingly left management, administration and faculty, have wrought.

            You and I both think it will be impossible to distinguish analytically between them in measuring and assessing outcomes.

            But I do not think an assessment at that point will need to distinguish. I do not think the DEI bureaucracy at that institution as we will last that long.

          4. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Again, what have they wrought? What are the indicators that things are going downhill? Do you have anything other than things in “plain sight”? And what does that mean exactly? On your last point, I’d be willing to bet that DEI will be around well after Mr. Youngkin’s tenure is over.

          5. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            My point is that there are no measurable indicators at all from a mixture of the short tenure of DEI, and they are unlikely to be teased out of data because of the overlapping political philosophies of the DEI bureaucracy and the rest of the management, administrative and academic personnel at UVa.

            The question then becomes whether there are violations of the United States Constitution by the presence and/or activities of the DEI infrastructure at a state university.

          6. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Maybe the BOV needs to be less politicized to get to the bottom of all this.

          7. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            Nor are there any measures for equality, except in arithmetic.

          8. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            Agreed. Let’s step back from the unrelenting criticism and give UVA 5 years of opportunity to run DEI. That will afford you and JC ample time to pursue other woke conservative ideas.

          9. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            A DEI bureaucracy has been in place at UVa for two years.

            Give them five, and see what difference they, as opposed to the overwhelmingly left management, administration and faculty, have wrought.

            You and I both think it will be impossible to distinguish analytically between them in measuring and assessing outcomes.

            But I do not think an assessment at that point will need to distinguish. I do not think the DEI bureaucracy at that institution as we will last that long.

          10. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Put it before a jury?

          11. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            Good exchange. Appreciate it!

    2. James McCarthy Avatar
      James McCarthy

      If you recall the metrics you employed to measure your personal success, imagine duplicating them for a larger audience. Do not enter the rabbit hole of woke conservative sophistry about DEI for solutions. The “magic number” will often be the reflected and reported experience of individuals, viz., the good old days.

  4. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    Since 1895 there have been 103 football games between VT and UVA. The Hokies lead the long rivalry with 60 wins. Highly inequitable. What is Ryan’s plan to create the equal probability of thriving on the grid iron? Should the Hokies transfer some blue chip players to C’ville? Maybe spot the Cavaliers a field goal at kickoff? Play all games at Scott Stadium? The systemic winning of the Fighting Gobblers must be addressed.

    1. James McCarthy Avatar
      James McCarthy

      If every constituent ingredient (players, coaches, scholarships, band, playing field) were perfectly equal, then the results might have been “more equal.” As it is, if the games were fairly played by the teams and refereed, then equity judged the results.

    2. M. Purdy Avatar
      M. Purdy

      I think he made it clear that equal outcomes is not the goal of equity.

      1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead

        Awesome! That means the Hokies will continue to master oops can’t use that word now. The Hokies will continue to lead the 128 year old rivalry.

      2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
        James C. Sherlock

        He had no choice. Too late.

        1. M. Purdy Avatar
          M. Purdy

          It never was. Nor can anyone here prove it was. It’s just trying to jam a square peg into a round hole b/c so much of your argument depends on a nonsensical definition of “equity.”

      3. Tom B Avatar

        I’m confused. If equality of outcome is not the goal, then what is the goal, and how do you measure it? Take the UVA case. By what metric is a 6.8% black rate a problem, if not by the comparison to the 19% population? Isn’t that equal outcome? What defines success? If you identify and justify the need by comparing outcome to population, and define success the same way, then the critics of equity seem to be correct.

        1. M. Purdy Avatar
          M. Purdy

          The goal is to have each population “thrive” academically and societally. See my post below for how you measure. You take indicators, which are listed, then gauge metrics. Increasing minority enrollment is a goal, but so is success at school and after. There’s a wide range of what constitutes “success,” just as in real life, and which is reflected by the various indicators. Nowhere is success defined as equal outcomes…just as in real life:-).

          1. Tom B Avatar

            Nice words, but I note that they are lacking in specifics. As such, they can be interpreted as anything the listener wants to hear, including allowing equality of outcome as the goal and judge. Frankly, I think for many on the left, that is the goal.

          2. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Look at the indicators that are quoted above. They are fair indicators of success and you can measure those for the most part.

          3. Tom B Avatar

            Sorry, but you’re proving my point. Is there a set of conditions where you would consider the current UVA numbers for blacks (6.8% against 19%) justified and not in need of correction? If so, what are they? If not, isn’t that equality of outcome?

          4. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            I might have been talking past you. To answer your question, I would like to see minority representation at UVa increase. Does it have to be exactly proportional? No. Do I think admission to a college is the same as “equality of outcome”? I do not. College admission is the preface to a long, hopefully, exciting story. It’s not an outcome in itself.

          5. Tom B Avatar

            Thank you.

          6. WayneS Avatar

            I would like to see minority representation at UVa increase.

            So would I, and it appears they have been somewhat successful at achieving this increase for minorities. For instance, the percentage of Asian American undergraduate students has risen by nearly 7% since 2009. The percentage of Hispanic students has also increased.

            Unfortunately, the percentage of African American undergraduates at UVA is lower now than it was in 2009.

  5. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
    f/k/a_tmtfairfax

    Lead by example. The first thing that white progressives in positions of authority or power should do is resign so a non-white person can replace the white progressive. Put your money where your mouth is.

    And all competitive sports at the college level must be terminated immediately. There are too few opportunities for ties. Everyone who has been on a losing team understands the pain of losing regularly.

    Walk your talk.

    1. James McCarthy Avatar
      James McCarthy

      Nah!! The first thing white progressives must do is to employ and promote non-white persons preferably female. Then, let nature and replacement take its course. Balk the bulk.

      1. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
        f/k/a_tmtfairfax

        B.S. Jim. It’s easy to signal virtue when it costs nothing. There are plenty of talented people who aren’t white progressives who could fill the shoes of white progressives. For example, white law firm equity partners could easily step down and become income partners or Of Counsel to make room for other talented people who aren’t equity partners become equity partners. But stepping down would actually cost something. If one truly believes in something take steps that advance the cause and cost the believer something.

        It reminds me of a discussion of affirmative action we had back in law school. A few students who were members of groups overrepresented in the bar and who were quite liberal in their politics made some good points in favor of affirmative action in law school admissions. But then, the professor (who was no Republican) asked whether groups that were overrepresented in law school should be limited. The answers were strong “NO’s.” They expected others to pay the price for their politics.

        1. James McCarthy Avatar
          James McCarthy

          It’s also easy and brave to pontificate about the behavior of others. I brought in a Puerto Rican partner into my law firm without virtue signaling. I’ve contributed what I could.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            So says the poster who is doing just that and therefore virtue signaling.

          2. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            Sophomoric!! If the question can be posed without shame, then a real-life response is appropriate. Let the one who calls the question put up – as well as those who accuse others of virtue signaling. Your turn.

          3. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            I’m not the one lecturing others on their lives there bud.

            Again, you virtue signal and have nothing else.

            Perhaps, you should refrain from telling others how to live their lives and just live your own.

            Also, what was the name of the Firm. You know so your statement can be verified.

          4. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            Are you saying the shoe I describe is your size? My statement – like the challenge question – needs no verification. In addition, were you to know anything about the business of small law firms, you would know no public record exists in partnership equity decisions; thus, no amount of checking would satisfy your curiosity. I add that, in any event, I would not offer the name of the firm for reasons of confidentiality and privacy.

          5. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Your comment is as per usual a whole lot of nothing and an attack on a poster.

            Just for your edification in Engineering and especially Federal Contracts there are laws regarding usage of DBE’s and MBE’s.

            In the last 5 years under those parameters I’ve worked with the following and helped them gain employment:

            1) Filipino female
            2) BIPOC French National Female
            3) Afghani male
            4) Southeast Asian Male
            5) Ethiopian Male
            6) etc…

            The difference being, I don’t feel the need to pat myself on the back (i.e. you). For helping that “Puerto Rican partner” as you called him, really lots of respect in that statement. That statement alone is why you are engaging in virtual signaling.

          6. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            Who’s tooting now? Virtue signaling? Who’s to verify your claims?

          7. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “James McCarthy 2 minutes ago
            Who’s tooting now? Virtue signaling? Who’s to verify your claims?”

            That is the most absurd statement, but par for the course with you.

            Also, again for your edification, since you clearly don’t know what “virtue signaling” nor a host of other items are, I’ll provide you with a definition.

            “Virtue signaling is actions that are more about posturing and impression management than actual action.”

            “Who’s to verify your claims?”

            Any engineering firm in the United States.

          8. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            Let’s see if I can help you keep up. tmtFairfax challenged whites to demonstrate commitment to improving the opportunities for non-whites by stepping aside and making room for non-whites. Walk the talk, he challenged.

            Making anyone a law partner requires other partners to provide the newcomer a % share of equity or ownership which also carries decision-making authority. When you helped some non-whites to employment, it likely did not include any ownership share or company decision making authority. My recruitment of a non-ethnic was purely voluntary, not driven by ERO or affirmative action.

            When your employment decisions meet tmtFairfax’s criteria then the dialogue will have substance and you will be up to date.

          9. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “Making anyone a law partner requires other partners to provide the newcomer a % share of equity or ownership which also carries decision-making authority. When you helped some non-whites to employment, it likely did not include any ownership share or company decision making authority.”

            Well besides your continued virtue signaling, you’re wrong. It’s not a public company, so big ol swing and a miss. Not to mention an attempt to downplay more money than you ever made for your “partners”.

            Mine wasn’t either, dbe’s and mbe’s by definition cannot be large engineering firms. They are subcontractors that supply services under specific rules (clearly which you don’t know).

            “When your employment decisions meet tmtFairfax’s criteria then the dialogue will have substance and you will be up to date.”

            My employment decisions made someone who is a dbe or mbe several million dollars. Stop being a condescending dbag, it’s juvenile, but than again, you’re a juvenile person.

          10. WayneS Avatar

            You all but demanded that he tell you.

          11. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            Matty requested the name of my firm. See my last reply to him concerning tmtFairfax’s challenge. Frankly, Wayne, I don’t care what Matty does in his area of influence.

  6. James C. Sherlock Avatar
    James C. Sherlock

    Does anyone seriously postulate that UVa needs a battalion of DEI functionaries to ensure equal opportunity among an overwhelmingly left of center management, administration and faculty?

    If so, state your reasoned case.

    1. M. Purdy Avatar
      M. Purdy

      This is really your last line of argument, is it not? First, it’s bloat that’s leading to increased tuition (turns out that UVa is remarkably cheap). Second, it’s leading to bad outcomes that are plain to see. (So far, no one has identified these bad outcomes.) Third, equity means equal outcomes! (Ryan disagrees, and the written documentation says nothing about equal outcomes). Fourth, DEI success is not measurable, it’s imagined! (Documentation demonstrates metrics by which to measure success.) Finally….do we really need that many folks employed in DEI? Maybe not, but you’ll have to concede coming up short in the first four attempts.

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Uh, he asked for a reasoned argument why DE&I was needed and useful at UVa.

        He did not ask for a fact substantiated argument that their contention that is not needed nor useful is “full of soup”, as Mama used to say.

      2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
        James C. Sherlock

        You tried, with studied inaccuracy, to restate my positions.

        I asked you to state yours.

        I asked you to make a case “why UVa needs a battalion of DEI functionaries to ensure equal opportunity among an overwhelmingly left of center management, administration and faculty?”

        Take your time.

        1. James McCarthy Avatar
          James McCarthy

          A battalion of DEI is needed at UVA to counter the incessant attacks on the institution. When y’all had “equality” leaders you did not complain about disparate admissions or results. Give DEI a chance.

          1. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
            f/k/a_tmtfairfax

            Who pays the price? Shouldn’t groups that are overrepresented at UVA be limited? All groups?

          2. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            As with the “poor laws” from colonial days, we all share the common wealth with those less fortunate.

          3. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Overrepresented at UVA are white females, followed closely by White Males. In the scheme of things in Virginia public universities BIPOC are underrepresented at UVA. Thus illustrating the very inconvenient facts to a host of posters here.

            VA Tech enrolls more students and as a percentage has higher BIPOC representation. As does VCU, GMU and ODU. If we are comparing those with similar enrollment size.

            https://www.collegetuitioncompare.com/my-schools/?compare=true&factor=enrollment&selected=232186232982232681234076234030234085233921231624

          4. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            Why is “underrepresented” a measure of “fair” or “equitable” enrollment or hiring unless both words are defined to mean “equal” to raw percentages of the population?

          5. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            It’s not. I was just pointing out the inconvenient fact to the posters who continue to make statements not bounded by facts and numbers.

            I believe in a meritocracy and that’s how we should operate on all faucets of life.

          6. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            How does a “battalion of DEI” defend the institution? Why is it wrong to “attack” the institution if the institution is engaging in wrongdoing? Do you give the morbidly obese a box of donuts or tell him to quit eating donuts? Maybe, truthful criticism is more “loving” than tolerating lies to be “nice.”
            And, no, DEI does not need to be given a chance – it has morphed from Dr. King/HHH never quotas to explicit quotas. Per se illegal.

          7. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            It’s your opinion that the conduct of UVA constitutes wrongdoing. If it is commuting a tort, bring a legal action instead of wild accusations which may be defamatory. Per se illegal makes it a slam dunk. What are you waiting for?

          8. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Lend me a million. I don’t have a battalion of Leftist lawyers and Leftist billionaires to fund it. Why don’t you?

          9. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            Try GiveSendGo.com, the #1 Christian crowdfunding organization that raised $631K for Kyle Rittenhouse and $2Million in a couple of days for the dude who choked to death the mentally ill person on a NYC subway. That campaign was initiated by the choker’s lawyers. So there’s hope for you and your cause. The JC can assist.

          10. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            substantive, as usual
            Hope you’re never endangered by a psycho who should be in a mental hospital…
            or tried to kill by Antifa.

          11. WayneS Avatar

            Okay. You got me on this one. What does “commuting a tort” mean?

            It sounds like it should be a legal term, but I cannot find it in my legal dictionary.

          12. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            Typo. Should be commuting a tort.

          13. WayneS Avatar

            Wait. What? Committing, maybe?

            Ah, yes, the ‘u’ is right next to the ‘u’, I mean ‘i’, on the keyboard.

          14. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            “A battalion of DEI is needed at UVA to counter the incessant attacks on the institution.”

            That is utterly disconnected
            from what the DEI staff actually claim to do. See https://www.baconsrebellion.com/read-it-and-weep-dei-at-uva/

            I suspect you felt you had to write something since the person questioned did not respond, but this is strange.

      3. James McCarthy Avatar
        James McCarthy

        It’s the sole argument. When you can’t beat the policy, beat the policy makers.

  7. walter smith Avatar
    walter smith

    Go to page 10 of the BOV DEI slide.
    https://bov.virginia.edu/system/files/public/meetings/%2723%20JUN%202%20FULL%20BOARD%20-%20DEI%20PRESENTATION.pdf
    Now look at the Diversity Dashboard
    https://diversitydata.virginia.edu/Home/Details/Undergraduate%20Students
    The number of Black students – 2009-2022 is virtually stagnant. As is the # of White students. This is despite the incredible effort to recruit Black students, including dropping the SAt and finagling the admissions process and lots of financial aid offered.
    Also, note that Faculty 2009-2023 grew about 25%. Student growth was about 10%…
    Staff looks to be up about 18%…
    Just saying…

  8. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    I dunno. Does it matter? Whichever gets you to having the quality of being fair and impartial.

    So replace DE&I with DFI&I.

    Thanks, this really belongs here. Note the E in this… and it’s real. Greenville, SC. Colorblind and really, really tone deaf.
    https://kubrick.htvapps.com/vidthumb/1e0c993c-24af-401d-be24-b6193799bbfe/590be27a-269e-4118-a835-47e5164313be.jpg?resize=660:*

  9. Lefty665 Avatar
    Lefty665

    Mr. Ryan is on thin ice with his example of ramps. Those physical access accommodations for people with disabilities are affirmatively required by law, the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). The issue is similar with signing for the deaf.

    Is Mr. Ryan implying that the variance between the student population at UVa, graduation rates, and the population of Virginia is due to disabilities in the general population? That would however support your last paragraph that outlines the limits of UVa’s ability to ameliorate larger societal issues through its admission policies.

  10. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    Well, you cite “the cumulative impact of slavery, segregation, racism,….” Sounds like systemic racism to me.

    You state that UVa cannot ameliorate those “factors that have held back Black academic achievement in Virginia.” Efforts at amelioration have to start somewhere. Why not at the state’s “flagship” university?

    By the way, what are some examples of programs that “explicitly benefit individuals on the basis of their racial status rather than their individual life circumstances”? And you say that the Jefferson Council “support scholarships that help academically meritorious students attend the University regardless of race.” That’s mighty generous. How do you define “academically meritorious”?

  11. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    Well, you cite “the cumulative impact of slavery, segregation, racism,….” Sounds like systemic racism to me.

    You state that UVa cannot ameliorate those “factors that have held back Black academic achievement in Virginia.” Efforts at amelioration have to start somewhere. Why not at the state’s “flagship” university?

    By the way, what are some examples of programs that “explicitly benefit individuals on the basis of their racial status rather than their individual life circumstances”? And you say that the Jefferson Council “support scholarships that help academically meritorious students attend the University regardless of race.” That’s mighty generous. How do you define “academically meritorious”?

    1. James McCarthy Avatar
      James McCarthy

      Sharing the common wealth dates from colonial times as “ poor laws.” Sad the woke conservatives ignore such history. They prefer the Puritan theology over charity and benevolence.

    2. James McCarthy Avatar
      James McCarthy

      Sharing the common wealth dates from colonial times as “ poor laws.” Sad the woke conservatives ignore such history. They prefer the Puritan theology over charity and benevolence.

      1. Tom B Avatar

        Can you now complete the discussion and tell us what obligations the poor have to those who are paying their bills?

        1. James McCarthy Avatar
          James McCarthy

          Colonial poor laws were enacted to afford some folks an opportunity to participate in the larger community. The gifts through taxation were freely given, I.e., charity. Not all freely given assistance creates a mutual obligation. The so-called Protestant ethic about work has been used as a quasi-theological lever in more contemporary public policy.

          1. Tom B Avatar

            Is this what you’re proposing?
            Main points of the 1601 Act
            The impotent poor (people who can’t work) were to be cared for in almshouse or a poorhouse. The law offered relief to people who were unable to work: mainly those who were “lame, impotent, old, blind”.
            The able-bodied poor were to be set to work in a house of industry. Materials were to be provided for the poor to be set to work.
            The idle poor and vagrants were to be sent to a house of correction or even prison.
            Pauper children would become apprentices.

          2. James McCarthy Avatar
            James McCarthy

            The colonial poor included fatherless children and widows and orphans. Not all “pauper” children were apprenticed and some went to court to be released from apprenticeships. And yes, the Puritan theology of the necessity of work was overlaid on some charity. Y’all will have to delve a bit deeper to appreciate the effect of those laws.

          3. Tom B Avatar

            I’ll leave it up to you to do the research to support your position.

            My question remains: Today, in 2023, what obligations do the poor have to those who are paying their bills?

    3. walter smith Avatar
      walter smith

      Being academically proficient enough to warrant admission on your own merits, not skin color.

    4. walter smith Avatar
      walter smith

      Class of 2026 admissions offer data
      White applicant offer rate 17%
      Black applicant offer rate 29%
      Hispanic and Asian rates higher than white.
      Chance?
      Now, only 26% of applicants submitted SAT scores.
      Wanna guess at what the SAT scores showed?

        1. walter smith Avatar
          walter smith

          Which has what to do with the data I got from admissions before they were told to quit cooperating?

          1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Seems the data you are reporting is simply incorrect.

          2. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            No troll. You have composite data. I have it broken down by race…from Admissions!
            Seems like you are doing your usual “misinformation.”

          3. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Sorry, but this data is Class of 2026 admissions and is broken down by race. Not actually sure what you asked for or got but I provided the reference for my data.

            Of the 4031 incoming students, here is the racial breakdown:

            White 1905
            Asian-American 805
            Black or African American 327
            Hispanic 305
            Multi-Race 234
            Nonresident Alien 218
            Unknown/Other 237

          4. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            That is admissions. Not offers. UVA, despite its best efforts, cannot increase its percentage of black admissions – it is stuck around 6.8%.
            However, OFFER of admissions is heavily skewed. 29% for black applicants. 17% for white applicants. And this is despite the white applicant SAT scores having a Mean about 100 points higher than the black applicants.
            There is huge competition for black admissions. All of the so-called “elite” schools. So, even with bending the process to favor black applicants, UVA is spinning its wheels as to admissions. “Hispanic” and “Asian” and “Multi-race” have gone up. “White” has stayed fairly steady as a number from 2009 to 2023, but has declined as a percentage (because the others went up!).

  12. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Well now. Think I’ll have a Chick-fil-A today.

    1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead

      Deep fried chicken + peanut oil = colon blow.

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Hell you say? Does that work?

        1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead

          There is a reason why seniors visit the chicken shack. Only once a week though. A bit pricey.
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/832b489d40e757246885846d79acf99aadf25261450da45e73b3b380058b495e.jpg

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Since I retired, I’ve gotten hooked on South Park. Watch it for an hour or so during the early morning hours.

            They did a whole shtick on KFC, and well, control and condition.

            There have been times when I have considered such measures.

  13. James McCarthy Avatar
    James McCarthy

    Remedies appear!! FL legislature has banned DEI in colleges and univs. An antiDeist in VA asserts “wrongdoing” and “per se illegal” Deist conduct at UVA. The VA Antideists ought to seek a travel ban to FL by VA Deists or, in the alternative a la Putin, request arrest warrants by FL. That’ll get attention.

    1. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      You’ve outdone yourself. This post merits not just a Jim McCarthy Silly Walk Award but a Jim McCarthy Silly Hop, Skip and Jump Award. Congrats.

    2. WayneS Avatar

      What the heck are you going on about?

      A Deist is a person who believes in the existence of a god, specifically a creator, who does not intervene in the universe after creating it.

      And I’m pretty sure the preferable term for an “anti-Deist” is atheist.

      And why should either of them be banned from travelling to Florida?

      1. James McCarthy Avatar
        James McCarthy

        Typing issues. Antifa as prologue to AntiDEIsts opposing DEIsts.

        1. WayneS Avatar

          Okay. But I agree with Nancy.

          A supporter of DEI would be a DEIist. Another advantage of using that term is that there will be no confusion with deist.

          😉

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        I think he means a “Deiist”.

        As for Fla, June to Sept. it’s Hell.

        1. James McCarthy Avatar
          James McCarthy

          I think Father McCaffrey who taught me two years of Latin would affirm deist. But I will research the matter.

        2. WayneS Avatar

          I have no problem with self-bans.

        3. WayneS Avatar

          I have no problem with self-bans.

    3. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      You’ve outdone yourself. This post merits not just a Jim McCarthy Silly Walk Award but a Jim McCarthy Silly Hop, Skip and Jump Award. Congrats.

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        I just flagged it as spam and moved on, it has zero relevance to the topic and is just him ranting and raving.

      2. James McCarthy Avatar
        James McCarthy

        Wow,you’re the best!! I’m humbled. Thank you ever so much for the accolades. Hopefully you’ll learn something. Be back in two weeks after travel to Africa. Be nice in the meantime.

      3. James McCarthy Avatar
        James McCarthy

        Wow,you’re the best!! I’m humbled. Thank you ever so much for the accolades. Hopefully you’ll learn something. Be back in two weeks after travel to Africa. Be nice in the meantime.

        1. WayneS Avatar

          Watch out for them ebolas…

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