Emmett Hanger’s New Idea: Index the Gas Tax to Average Fuel Economy

Sen. Emmett Hanger, R-Augusta, has proffered a partial solution for Virginia’s transportation-funding woes: Index the gasoline tax to the average fuel economy of vehicles on state roads.

According to an editorial in the Staunton News Leader, Hanger has joined the growing number of legislators to worry about the impact of improving gasoline mileage on the primary source of funding for state road maintenance and construction. With the introduction of a slew of new technologies, miles per gallon could well double or triple, and better mileage will translate into commensurately less gasoline consumed and fewer taxes paid at the pump.

Hanger’s idea provides a rationale for increasing the gasoline tax that tax-phobic citizens just might buy. Annual adjustments, which probably would amount to less than one penny per gallon annually, would help extend the life of the gasoline tax as a funding source. Hanger deserves credit for acknowledging the problem and for trying to think outside the box.

But the idea still has flaws. First, the incremental added revenue won’t come close to meeting the needs of Virginia’s Business As Usual transportation policy. Perpetuating our one-man-one-car society requires billions of dollars now, far more than could possibly be milked from this tax. Second, by taxing gasoline consumption, the plan would tax those who burn gasoline, not those who crowd the roads. Such a tax would only accelerate the shift to non-gasoline fuels, most notably electricity.

The biggest problem is that we need to think beyond perpetuating the transportation status quo and think seriously about creating a 21st century transportation system. Funding that system is one critical piece of the puzzle, but only one. Without Fundamental Change in planning land use and transportation policies, Virginia will simply stumble from crisis to crisis — no matter how much it raises in taxes. Hanger’s plan can’t paper over that reality.


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45 responses to “Emmett Hanger’s New Idea: Index the Gas Tax to Average Fuel Economy”

  1. A Republican … advocating a tax increase?

    Shades of Chichester RINOism.

    The good news is that – he demonstrates that he does understand the fiscal reality AND he has “ideas”.. you know .. those things that his fellow R’s in Va think.. is synonymous with “no new taxes”.

    So this is a pretty significant thing… Hanger is thinking of proportional taxation.. i.e. taxing according to what one actually uses….

    this will be blasphemous to (we all get and we all pay) Ray H 😉

  2. Jim, I think you meant “Such a tax would only accelerate the shift to non-gasoline fuels, most notably gasoline.” to read “most notably electricity”.

    Interesting profile of Bloomberg’s traffic czar:

    http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=street_fighter

    Again, when you run the numbers, even assuming a transition to plug-in vehicles, a gas tax of 50 cents is enough the bridge the funding needs. A more modest increase of 5-10 cents is all that is needed in the near term (10 years).

  3. Once again we have claims about the gasoline tax WHOLLY UNSUPPORTED BY DATA. Latest VA numbers

    New car sales and the price of new cars are slumping far more (-20% in $ collected) than the tiny down blip in VA gas tax revenue (-3.6%) but where are the cries to replace the “unsustainable” car tax and car sales taxes? VMT will be back up once the economy recovers.

    This is so transparently a ‘solution’ in search of a problem. The ‘solution’ just happens to make outsourced tax collectors rich and give RINOs the ability to conceal their massive tax hikes.

    “by taxing gasoline consumption, the plan would tax those who burn gasoline, not those who crowd the roads”

    You can’t ‘crowd the roads’ without burning gasoline.

  4. Let’s take an example.

    Two guys lives next door to each other and they both work at the same place.. but they both drive solo ever day – 40 miles round trip.

    Guy 1 has a H3 Hummer and gets 15 mpg.

    Guy 2 has a Prius and gets 45 mpg.

    Guy 1 pays about 50 cents in gas tax per trip.

    Guy 2 pays about 17 cents in gas tax per trip.

    guy 1 trades in his Hummer for a Prius….

    1000 guys (and gals) like guy 1 do the same thing …

    but they drive the same trip everyday and each one needs his “footprint” .. at the height of rush hour…

    multiple this out ..times several thousand people over 5-10 years and what happens?

    Bob .. you’re swimming upstream on this… aren’t you?

    Given the above situation.. can you explain how we’d expect the total gas tax revenues to be expected to continue to rise over the next 5 or 10 years?

  5. Anonymous Avatar

    I don’t see it. My 1970 VW got around 25 MPG. My wife’s 2004 VW gets areound 25 MPG. If I consider both cars and four trcks, my personal fleet average is less than that.

    I doubt that, overall, gas economy is hurting the fuel tax very much. The problem is that it hasn’t been indexed for ANTYTHING for 30 years. No wonder there isn’t enough to go around.

    Tolls are new taxes, the proposed mileage tax is a new tax, and they will be much higher than the gas tax, but affect far fewer people. As Groveton pointed out, the current HOT lane plan is just another ROVA/NOVA wealth transfer, that will do nothing for NOVA congestion, overall.

    We will use more electric cars – eventually, but that isn’t going to affect fuel taxes for a long time yet. Larry’s example of Hummer drivers switchig to hybrids is just silly. If the hybrids are not paying enough gas tax, then raise the tax enough to make them pay their own way. Next thing you know,all tha gas guzlers will be howling in outrage because they are paying “too much”.

    And then you will have to worry about what you are going to do with all that “excess” gas tax money.

    No doubt it will be spent on mass transit.

    RH

  6. there’s no question – two similar-sized vehicles .. each require a “footprint”.

    If one of those vehicles gets twice a much gas mileage – that person will pay 1/2 the gas tax of the other guy.

    Ray’s “solution” .. raise the tax higher..and let the guy with the gas guzzler “howl” will result in the second guy ALSO getting a more fuel efficient car….

    re: NoVa/RoVa congestion tolls…

    if you charge folks who use – and congest NoVa roads… what does that have to do with folks who do not use NoVa roads?

    The idea behind congestion pricing is to charge the folks who are actually causing the congestion… and to not charge the folks who do not.

    If you are not driving in congested areas or you live in an area with congestion but take steps to not drive in congested time slots – why should you pay more?

  7. “Given the above situation.. can you explain how we’d expect the total gas tax revenues to be expected to continue to rise over the next 5 or 10 years? Bob .. you’re swimming upstream on this… aren’t you?”

    Larry, that’s my point. Your situation is not based on fact or data. It’s fantasy. It’s little different from the line of thought that you build an HOV lane or open up a bus line, and all of a sudden millions of people will carpool and take the bus.

    The reality is that nobody does either. Failure to recognize reality is the fatal flaw from which all social engineers suffer.

    New car sales were way down in 2005, 2006, 2007 and YTD 2008. Gas revenue was down YTD in 2008 only, and not by much considering the overall economy and the price of gas. The concern about the gas tax is B-O-G-U-S and driven by rent-seekers.

    P.S. should have credited Groveton when calling the tollers “outsourced tax collectors.”

  8. If not mistaken, the NoVa area has one of the highest rates of carpool/van/bus/rail ridership in the nation – around 45%.

    but that’s neither here nor there as far as the … REALITY …that many folks WILL BUY more fuel efficient cars when they retire their older cars.

    and when they do that – the REALITY IS – that they will pay LESS in gas tax than they did before….

    is there anything that I’ve said that is not true?

    If nothing is done about indexing the gas tax or charging a percentage of the total sale (like the VRE tax), then – isn’t the longer term trend, in general, for more and more folks to buying less gasoline and paying less gas tax?

    Let me turn this around. Do you believe that gas tax revenue will INCREASE in the future?

  9. “but that’s neither here nor there as far as the … REALITY …that many folks WILL BUY more fuel efficient cars when they retire their older cars.”

    If it’s reality, you can prove it with data. Until you do so, it no more determines the future than the horoscope page of the Washington Post (not the editorial page, the other page that looks to the stars to define their reality).

    “Let me turn this around. Do you believe that gas tax revenue will INCREASE in the future?”

    If it is, the rate can be adjusted to keep it “revenue neutral” or “revenue positive” as desired. I prefer neutral.

  10. Anonymous Avatar

    “If not mistaken, the NoVa area has one of the highest rates of carpool/van/bus/rail ridership in the nation – around 45%.”

    I’m pretty sure you are mistaken. It is nowhere neare 45% and probably closer to 5% – if that.

    Anyway, what is the difference between cuttng fuel tax revenues usnig a more efficient vehicle, or by packing one vehicle full and using fewer vehicles?

    Either way you still have the same road mainteneance, and you still need more capacity than we have.

    RH

    RH

  11. Anonymous Avatar

    Gas tax reveneues will follow closely with VMT and VMT will follow closely with GDP. When the economy goes up, so will gas tax revenues, more efficient vehicles notwithstanding.

    Last I knew F still equalled MA, and whatever we move will obey that equation. The only way to use less F is to move less mass, and move it more slowly. In otherer words, using less F is not free.

    RH

  12. Anonymous Avatar

    “-Twenty five per cent of adults agreed that ‘People who drive on busy roads should pay more to use the roads than people who drive on quiet roads’; 58 per cent disagreed.

    -Twenty three per cent of adults agreed that ‘People who drive at the busiest time should pay more to use the roads than people who drive at quiet times’; 60 per cent disagreed.”

    From a British study of congestion pricng attitutdes.

    RH

  13. 98% don’t like to pay taxes…

    …. from a street-corner survey

    😉

  14. Anonymous Avatar

    And your point would be?

    Nobody likes to pay taxes, we can all agree on that. The point here is that there is at least SOME evidence that there is disagreement on what the proper road pricing strategy ought to be.

    That there is at least SOME concensus that people who travel on busy roads at busy times don’t actually cost us more.

    That would happen ONLY if we actually provided more capacity, which isn’t happening.

    RH

  15. Anonymous Avatar

    Maybe Virginia needs a department of business location. Any business that will have more than 25 employees will need to perform a study of where their actual and potential workers live and the prepare and file a plan that minimizes commuting for those employees.

    I suspect, however, that the DoBL would not be popular with NoVA’s commercial real estate industry.

    TMT

  16. I read of an Ohio (or Indiana) company… that would not hire folks unless they lived within a certain radius of their company because they needed employees to be on time at every shift.

    But I’m heartened that there is a widening recognition that jobs in a place like NoVa come with an major infrastructure cost and are not necessarily a net benefit if the existing mobility infrastructure is maxed .. and adding/expanding is problematical and expensive.

    I find it interesting that DOD wants to move a bunch of folks to Fort Belvoir .. and while they do acknowledge that there are transportation infrastructure impacts – they are not going to kick in any major contributions for upgrading the infrastructure.

    Disheartening though.. is Fairfax county’s apparent plans to ADD MORE JOBs… to that area – even while transportation planners including VDOT are expressing doubts that just the new Belvoir workers can be accommodated.

    but then you have places like New York City.. and they’ll take any and all new employers … just rack-em and stack-em…

  17. “Any business that will have more than 25 employees will need to perform a study of where their actual and potential workers live and the prepare and file a plan that minimizes commuting for those employees.”

    This is 18th Century thinking. People don’t have one trade and stick with the same job in the same location for life. Ditto with housing. On average, I’ve changed job locations once every three years and housing every six. Total mobility of capital and labor is Adam Smith’s dream come true, and it’s far more valuable than the fantasy benefits promised by the central planning committee.

    Businesses have all the incentive they need to make work schedules flexible and telecommuting an option, because congestion is miserable. There’s nothing government can do to help — other than increase capacity which Kaine won’t do.

  18. well.. if businesses can come and go…

    say…DOD puts a ton of folks in Belvoir.. and the State builds new infrastructure.. and then DOD does another BRAC and moves the folks out of Belvoir.

    I don’t disagree with the sentiments about mobility … but no company and no worker is entitled to infrastructure paid for by others.. even if they could.

    The idea that because NoVa – as a region – “benefits” RoVa certainly has some truth.. but RoVa is not only small in population (compared to NoVa) but their productivity and income pales in comparison also.

    blood from a turnip… territory

    so.. at the end of the day – NoVa has to figure out and take responsibility for how it grows instead of claiming that .. somehow.. it is up to Richmond or RoVa to fix their problems.

    If we think that employer and employee mobility is the ultimate in free market nirvana – great – but then running away from the obvious downsides of such a philosophy and/or pointing fingers at others .. ain’t going to get you love – nor money.

  19. re: gas tax revenues

    FYI –

    “September US traffic estimated lowest since 2001”

    Funding for roads off

    The US highway trust fund collected $31b in fuel revenues in the year to Sept 2008, about $3b less than last year while spending from the fund increased $2b!!!!

    US sec transport Mary Peters says this is a reminder that the highway trust fund so-called is no longer a viable fund raising mechanism for roads.

    The Congress has already had to supplement the trust fund with $8b this year and Peters says another shortfall could occur sooner than expected.

    She urges a fundamental change – a system of vehicle-mile charges or universal tolls.”

    “We can keep trying to patch our broken transportation policies, or we can embrace the kinds of changes needed…” she said in a statement.

    http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/3852

    So… if we believe Bob… the funding issue is a ruse and we already have plenty of transportation money… but are not spending it wisely….

    but if we listen to Ray – he’s for a big gas tax increase – as much as 25 cents if I recall…correctly…

    others.. including myself.. are in favor or tolls…

    still others.. favor other mechanisms such as charging by the mile… or in Senator Hanger’s case – a multiplier based on fuel consumption efficiency.

    but if you think about this – the issues with regard to where jobs are located and where people live….

    the answers fall into two general areas…

    1. a centralized planning solution

    2. a pricing solution

    the centralized planning solution includes not only the concept of government “rules” as espoused by some but if we really want to be honest – it would include higher taxes on everyone.. regardless of their choice of mobility and commute.

    That’s why we hear the issue often couched in the phrase that “Richmond is not adequately funding transportation”.

    In other words.. if we think having the Government telling us where we should live or work is a bad idea.. isn’t it also a essentially a “government” idea to collect money from everyone statewide to spend on mobility?

    when government does this – are they not also “centrally” planning?

    in essence.. when Bob says he prefers to NOT have the Government “central planning”… would he also include taxing to generate revenues that are ‘centrally planned’ in expenditures?

  20. Anonymous Avatar

    NoVa has to figure out and take responsibility for how it grows….

    This is just silly. There is simply no known way to make it happen, and make it work economically. We will wind up with a situation like your example of New York: ten of thousands fo people traveling hours – just to get to where the work is.

    Transit isn’t going to cut it: it is expensive, slow, and inefficient for all but a very few specialized tasks. More roads are mostly out of the question. High rents and taxes and pollution have long since given the lie to the idea that urban areas ae somehow more efficient than other places.

    The only way that NOVA grows that makes any sense is to grow someplace else – where it isn’t crowded, and a lot less expensive.

    RH

  21. Anonymous Avatar

    11.2% of Virginians travel to work by carpool, not 45%.

    RH

  22. re: “The only way that NOVA grows that makes any sense is to grow someplace else – where it isn’t crowded, and a lot less expensive.”

    well then.. it wouldn’t be NoVa anymore would it?

    how about taking your statement and putting a “fill-in” BLANK where you have NoVa.

    would that be “silly”?

    is there something unique about NoVa and congestion that makes it so different from other urbanized areas that it needs a unique solution?

    re: % of folks who carpool

    what is the point ?

    why not let folks who want to carpool, slug, etc.. do their thing and to have THEIR taxes go to provide the infrastructure that supports their mode choice instead of taking their money and spending it on stuff for folks who don’t want to carpool?

  23. There is pleny of room for more roads in NOVA. All you need to do is blow up the wasteful nonsense like HOV lanes on 95 and the ridiculous metro line on 66 to fit in more capacity without even turning to eminent domain (which would be a really nasty thing to do with housing values so low).

    “The US highway trust fund collected $31b in fuel revenues in the year to Sept 2008, about $3b less than last year”

    I posted the real numbers for VA. Who cares what the toll road stooges have to say? The fact is, the gas tax is the least hurt of the transportation taxes, (except registration fees which keep going up and are per capita). So stop pretending there’s a crisis. The facts just don’t support it.

    “the answers fall into two general areas… 1. a centralized planning solution 2. a pricing solution”

    You are conflating two issues. Let’s separate them:

    (1) How to collect revenue
    a. Free roads with a gas tax and the bazillion other taxes
    b. Toll roads plus the bazillion other taxes

    (2) How to spend revenue
    a. VDOT plans roads statewide
    b. VDOT lets Australians decide where to build the roads
    c. Some kind of unelected “regional authority” decides

    Your argument about tolls paying only for the roads your driving on is busted: Dulles Toll Road. We are living under option (2b). I don’t see much difference between (2a) and (2c).

  24. Mary Peters is lobbying for a job with a road-pricing firm; someone should tell her that EVERY one of those infrastructure companies is headed for collapse. The entire racket was dependent on getting cheap financing.

    NOVA doesn’t need more highways; it needs better secondary roads. I don’t think state gas tax covers that.

    We need a modest state gas tax increase. The collapse in vehicle sales tax is more serious and there isn’t really an answer there. I personally am rejoicing in $1.60 gas, but a $1 tax increase — either on the fed or state side — would be a positive development. It will also never happen until the Chinese demand their money back.

    We also need to have a discussion on taxing buses, trucks and large SUVs (over 6000 pounds) more as they are the ones doing the damage to the roads and causing maintenance costs to increase. Being done of the federal level and then passed on to the states is the most fair way, because a state tax is only going to hit in-state registered vehicles.

    I’ve noticed traffic is DC get noticeably worse as the price of gas collapsed. A gas tax is a good way to avoid that without building up a new class of rent-seekers.

  25. Anonymous Avatar

    “re: % of folks who carpool

    what is the point ? “

    I was just providing a data point for info. I thought it was sammlller than 11% but I was pretty sure it wasn’t 40%.

    RH

  26. Anonymous Avatar

    “is there something unique about NoVa and congestion that makes it so different from other urbanized areas that it needs a unique solution?”

    Fundamentally, no. Anypalce that has job density that cannot be supported by any known transprotation system is going to have congestion problems. METRO considers peak occupancy rates above 85% as highy congested. Above 100% and you can’t get on the train.

    However, the Capital area region has some unique problems in that it has to serve three major and many more minor governmental jurisdictions. Not having another wesern bridge over the Potomac causes excess congestion on the Virginia beltway, for which Maryland has to accept zero responsibility.

    Despite what Bob says, there isn’t a lot of land left for new capacity, and we aren’t ripping out METRO to get it. Even if we had land, we would still be restricted by EPA. Even if you had the money, the will, and the land, it probably still would not happen.

    More capacity isn’t the answer for the roads we have or would like to have. And traffic demand management is also not the answer for moving more people where they want to go. We have convinced ourselves that sprawl is not the answer, when it probably is the best answer available, in some respects. (OK, we can sprawl more smartly than we have in the past, that much is a given.)

    But having eliminated every possibility we then wonder why it is that we find ourselves in a box.

    RH

  27. Anonymous Avatar

    Bob – my comments of yesterday were facetious.

    I think Ray is largely correct in that it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to build major new roads in NoVA. In existing corridors, there is very little land available at affordable prices. The EPA, especially under Obama, will not likely permit the building of major new roads for air quality reasons. (When your team wins the election, you get to adopt more of your policies.)

    And another factor is the number of people believing that more and more development is an overall negative has has probably tipped, if not to a majority, at least to a plurality. More and more often, people see proposed transportation improvements as taxpayer-financed boondoggles designed to open an area to new or increased development, which translates into more traffic congestion. The “anti’s” hand will continue to be strengthened over time.

    It’s somewhat ironic that the effort by the development community to push support for Democrats since they are an easier sell for higher taxes has also resulted in more anti-development mood among voters who voted for the Democrats. People who are more receptive to higher taxes are also generally more receptive to government saying no to more development.

    Smart sprawl – maybe that is part of the answer.

    TMT

  28. yup.. Bob is all wet on the “we can build more roads” idea…

    the ICC is probably the last mega road project that will be built… and it’s finances are shaky…

    and ya’ll oughta check the tax revenues that he provided for Virginia – they show a DECREASE…no inconsistent with the Federal Numbers.

    and Central Planning –

    whether it is VDOT.. or Transurban… in an agreement with VDOT… “free” roads (which are not free) ARE Central Planning also.

    You say you don’t want the government deciding where there are jobs or where people can live – but the reality is they do – when they decide to put a road somewhere.

    If not for the Centrally Planned I-395/I-495/I-95/I-66 jobs and residences might well have been done differently.

    In fact, there are those who claim that it IS, in fact, the way we HAVE PLANNED and have funded (by taxing everyone) roads that has led to folks living further from work – and because there was initially plenty of capacity…were able to solo drive every day at rush hour.

    There is probably few urban areas in the US – in the world – where there is not major congestion at rush hour.

    The availability of right-of-way (not) and the expense of right-of-way that is available in dense urbanized areas Is… a real limitation.

    I know of few, if any major urbanized place:

    1. – that has built it’s way out of congestion

    2. – does not continue to have major congestion at rush hour

    3. – does not have mass transit – bus and rail

    If there was/is a city that has no mass transit and has been able to build it’s way out of congestion – would it stand to reason that it would serve as a model for other areas to do the same?

    The fact that it has not happened … should be a clue to those who say that it is “simple”… just tear out the HOV and mass transit and build new lanes…

    tell me where this has happened?

    re: Mary Peters/toll roads/etc

    No doubt.. that she and other are supporters of toll roads but she is also correct about the prospects of funding major new roads in the urbanized areas.

    It’s not likely to happen given the circumstances that we have.

    re: Obama… and the EPA…

    we had 8 years of Republicans.. 6 of those years in control of both houses of Congress and the Presidency… and the opportunity to gut the EPA rules on non-attainment.

    My “take away” of this is that not even a majority of the Republicans supported gutting non-attainment rules .. or else they would have done it… no?

    I see the folks who are opposed to tolls … as a funding mechanism as opposed on their principles but not accepting of the realities… and not offering any realistic alternatives … to what Mary Peters is saying…

  29. Sorry I missed the TMT sarcasm — just apply my thoughts to the other people who actually do think that way.

    As for road capacity, I don’t buy the “it’s impossible” dodge. It is possible, and it is getting done. In fact, as I’ve pointed out before (in agreement with Larry) the unholy alliance between Big Toll money and greedy bureaucrats looking to cash in has been great for steamrolling ecomentalists. Tollers are expert at faking studies. (Side note: I’m ok with lying on this point because enviro studies are inherently bogus anyway.)

    Know what else was impossible? ANWR and offshore drilling. Opinions can change.

    “and ya’ll oughta check the tax revenues that he provided for Virginia – they show a DECREASE.”

    Um, yeah, and most of that decrease came from car sales — not the gas tax.

    “If there was/is a city that has no mass transit and has been able to build it’s way out of congestion – would it stand to reason that it would serve as a model for other areas to do the same?”

    So because there’s no place with Fundamental Transformation — or at least EMR refused to provide an example — it means that his ideas are bogus too, right?

    Transportation bureaucrats are lemmings. Name any state that does anything unique. The fact that bureaucratic “solutions” are uniform follows from the uncreative nature of bureaucracy. Worse, their “ideas” are never properly evaluated for effectiveness on a cost/benefit basis — that is the reason their “ideas” should be rejected.

    I do support central planning for roads, but I’m not opposed necessarily to local planning for roads (especially local roads!)

    This is different from the EMR/Soviet central planning that tells you how and where to live and how you should go about your daily life. E.g. “No family vehicle for you!”

    In summary —
    Central planning of government activities: good for things that have impact beyond one community.
    Central planning to control the populace: bad.

  30. Bob and I actually agree as much as we disagree especially with respect to bureaucracy and it’s inherent nature.

    and we agree about taxes (I think) although I think he’s got himself caught between idealogogically not increasing existing taxes .. and having the money to build something.

    and I hope to convince him that having the government decide WHERE to build roads AND how big and wide to build them (or not).. has the EFFECT of Central Planning… for jobs and homes….

    …witness Tysons… where developers plan on making a buck ..not so much on pure unadulterated free market capitalism… but transportation infrastructure provided by tax payers.. via the Federal Gas Tax…

    which proves my point and Bob’s point that when you collect taxes from everyone .. and then turn over the decisions about where and how to spend it – to unelected bureaucrats .. posing as central planners.. you get stuff like mass transit and HOT lanes…

    so the irony is.. that Tysons is essentially enabled by diverting gas taxes for mass transit.. and the same with the HOT lanes – funded and financed from gas tax dollars… to “central plan” congestion management…

    what say you Bob? Have I got it right?

    😉

  31. here’s another example of central planning that affects mobility –

    ” .., the [barge] service projected to lose money on each run in its first two years of operation. But the line was leveraged by a $2.25 million grant from the Richmond Metropolitan Planning Organization and $400,000 from the commonwealth. That money comes from Richmond’s share of federal highway congestion mitigation and air quality funds.”

    http://www.dailypress.com/business/dp-biz_barge_1127nov27,0,3060641.story

    note… “congestion mitigation and air quality fund” are gas tax money.

    so .. we once gain.. have “central” planners at work here…

    methinks .. Bob does support Central Planning… but only the kind he likes… as opposed to being against all central planning…

    my point?

    that “central planning” is … legitimate in it’s motive and intent and that, in fact, “central planning” REQUIRES a source of money – taxes….

    and that without “central” planning… private toll roads would be the norm….

    gotcha Bob….!!!!

    😉

  32. Anonymous Avatar

    Let me clarify a few facts about Dulles Rail & Tysons Corner. As Larry noted, much of the Dulles Rail financing (the federal piece) is from the federal gas tax. The local piece is from some, but not all, landowners who will receive additional density in the form of extra real estate taxes. But the biggest payers are the Dulles Toll Road drivers. A Capital Cost Agreement for Dulles Rail, which I believe is available on the MWAA website, provides that DTR drivers will pay 75% of the total costs, including cost overruns.

    Where is the MSM?

    What is killing the Old Dominion is the ability of businesses to lobby for public dollars for their businesses behind closed doors. Making every government contact seeking access to public dollars visible would do more for reform and sane public decisions than anything else.

    TMT

  33. Anonymous Avatar

    How do you let the carpoolers have THEIR taxes go to support the infrastructure of their choice?

    If a Prius driver isn’t paying his way, what about one guy of three riding in a Prius?

    For this to work, you would have to charge the carpoolers three times as much.

    And EPA still won’t let you build a new road.

    Anyway the premise is bad. there are too few crpoolers to raise much money. In order to have more carpoolers, youneed to make it pay more, which it doesn’t, at present.

    In order to pay te carpoolers (to get out of your lane) yuneed to charge the single drivers, and use the moey to PAY the carpoolers. Then you will stike a balanceb etween those willing to pay to do as they please, when they please, and those willing to accept some work and inconveneince in exchange for money.

    Then, both sides win.

    As for all the places that have congestion, there must be some trade off betwen building a Walmart or some other business in the wilds of North Dakota where there is no traffic, and building it in Times square where there is too much.

    Private toll roads, truly private toll roads would never be the norm. We went down that road once, and they went bust.

    RH

  34. “and we agree about taxes (I think) although I think he’s got himself caught between idealogogically not increasing existing taxes .. and having the money to build something.”

    No, we’re on the same page here. I have always said that *IF* more gas tax would result in more asphalt, I might reluctantly go along with it — suppressing my rage about the existing theft of motorist cash. The political reality today is that more gas tax means nothing but more choo choo trains and empty, polluting buses. That is intolerable.

    “and I hope to convince him that having the government decide WHERE to build roads AND how big and wide to build them (or not).. has the EFFECT of Central Planning… for jobs and homes….”

    Yes, I agree. But (a) it is not a coercive power. And, (b) the not building of roads has the exact same effect. E.g., of artificially raises housing prices.

    I forgot to mention there is one slightly forward thinking transportation leader: Boris Johnson who trounced Red “Toll Everything” Ken in London. And, if nothing else, Boris’ reports are the most entertaining reads ever published by a government printing press. I mean ever.

    “which proves my point and Bob’s point that when you collect taxes from everyone .. and then turn over the decisions about where and how to spend it – to unelected bureaucrats .. posing as central planners.. you get stuff like mass transit and HOT lanes…”

    I see your point, although it’s not coercive central planning. I’d support regional elected decisionmakers if it would make a difference. I wholeheartedly support creating a referendum and recall process in Virginia. The system desperately needs fixing, but that’s not an excuse to impose a wasteful Rube Goldberg scheme that only makes Mary Peters’ friends filthy rich.

    Please note that turning decisions over to Australia and having roads fund the Airport Authority does not address the fundamental problem. HOT and tolls are symptoms of the same disease that created Tysons: lousy government.

    Can we agree on that?

    “and that without ‘central’ planning… private toll roads would be the norm….”

    A truly private toll road is not a problem. If, say, Ted Turner (who owns something crazy like 30% of private land in the US) wants to build his own personal highway, he should go right ahead and do itt. As far as I know, no such road has ever been built. By the way, Ted has a fantastically hypocrtical restaurant in Alexandria that serves nothing but delicious, grilled animals. Mmm, tasty. It’s one of my favorite places.

    TMT: “What is killing the Old Dominion is the ability of businesses to lobby for public dollars for their businesses behind closed doors. Making every government contact seeking access to public dollars visible would do more for reform and sane public decisions than anything else.”

    Big thumbs up on that point!

    Except I think disclosure isn’t enough. The general facts about the Transurban deal are out there and anyone with a basic understanding of math can see how it’s a scam. Yet the only thing The Washington Post ever seems to want to write about is the cutting down of trees. Transparency when the only major media outlet is lazy and hates Virginia (especially Virginians with cars) doesn’t do much good. Virginia needs a good site for investigative journalism. There’s already a pretty good site for political/transportation discussions.

    We also need a referendum/recall process so we can scare the legislature into respecting the consent of the governed.

  35. we do agree on the referenda/recall ..

    and further the right of citizen initiated ballot questions…IMHO….

    but I won’t blame the media… it’s too “Fox..ish”… there is LOTs of info “out there” but the lazy-man approach is to wait for media to do the homework.

    and.. there is FOIA… which has gotten more than one arrogant bean counter in trouble….. when the timing is good….

    re: tolls and HOT Lanes…

    I fundamentally support them because I consider them better than the current tax/slush fund process… that I do not think can be reformed…

    Mary Peters has that part right.

    she thinks the Federal Gas Tax should be killed… because the process has become one huge corrupt earmark game… just perfect for behind-the-scenes skulduggery – money for transportation museums… village square sidewalks, but …also… developer perks…. for those who know how to work the system….

    things like this:

    ” House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert has used an Illinois trust to invest in real estate near the proposed route of the Prairie Parkway, a highway project for which he’s secured $207 million in earmarked appropriations. The trust has already transferred 138 acres of land to a real estate development firm that has plans to build a 1,600-home community, located less than six miles from the north-south connector Hastert has championed in the House.”

    http://blog.sunlightfoundation.com/2006/06/14/dennis-hasterts-real-estate-investments/

    so.. tell me Bob… what about those 1600 homes.. and that road….

    was it

    1. “centrally planned”?
    2. “coerced” ?
    3. a “benefit” to those who would buy those homes and commute to their jobs?

    How do you prevent the Hasterts and their cronies of this world from using highway money to build highways that benefit their own bottom line?

    MPOs are not much better – because they are not elected… but rather controlled by elected officials… some of which are doing the same thing at the MPO level that Hastert was doing at the Congressional level….

    We do know that there are some toll roads that are not ripping people off.. and are operated responsibly…

    I see the transburan HOT Lanes as a correct solution to congestion.. when there is no available money and no real estate to add network capacity.

    It’s no different than an airline that can either buy 10 aircraft and congestion-price or buy 20 aircraft and not.

    The concept is the same.

    Some folks will say that the airlines are “ripping” people off by charging more for peak hour travel and they would not agree that if they bought the 20 planes – EVERYONE would have to pay more.. whether they flew at peak hour or not.

    And that’s what we are doing with our highways as everyone is paying the same amount of gas tax – no matter when or where they drive… and that causes congestion…

    and that’s exactly what would happen to the airlines if they operated the same way we do roads.

    I don’t think that toll road operators are any more (or less) “crooked” than car dealers or Walmarts or Mortgage companies… or for that matter the companies that VDOT hires to build and maintain roads on contract…

    I’m not sure why we should feel that VDOT’s relationship with Transurban is any more or any less “corruptive” than the hundreds of other businesses that VDOT also enters into contracts with.. for all manners of services …to include building highways…

    and … I’m quite sure.. not at the level of the Hastert deal…

    Mary Peters is right.

    She says up front that the current process is ..corruptive….

    true.. she’s a toll road advocate but what is it about what she is saying about the current process that is wrong?

    Isn’t she basically correct about the current process?

    Isn’t that the reason Bob -that you’d not agree to pay more in gas taxes?

  36. “but I won’t blame the media… it’s too ‘Fox..ish’… there is LOTs of info ‘out there’ but the lazy-man approach is to wait for media to do the homework.”

    I’ve done the homework. What good does it do if I’m the only one who knows how massive the scam is? You can’t expect every citizen to “do the homework” on every issue, especially since most issues are really dull.

    “I fundamentally support them because I consider them better than the current tax/slush fund process… that I do not think can be reformed…”

    I don’t think the toll scam can be reformed because it’s inherently corrupt. It conceals tax hikes by outsourcing to a foreign corporation. The contracts last 75 years beyond the term of the unelected underlings of the appointees of the elected officials who approved them. That’s absurd.

    “… just perfect for behind-the-scenes skulduggery – money for transportation museums… village square sidewalks, but …also… developer perks…. for those who know how to work the system….”

    You mean like 80 year contracts that are “TRADE SECRETS” that you can’t see and can’t obtain under FOIA? At least transportation legislation is available an hour before the vote. And without any FOIA charges.

    “so.. tell me Bob… what about those 1600 homes.. and that road….”

    Aside from enriching the developer for political reasons — kinda like Mary Peters enriching her general counsel and all the friends who are going to pay her back next month — that’s far from the worst earmark you could have chosen. Road to nowhere is much better. I support an earmark ban and a VA constitutional amdt (sponsored by Bob Marshall) to lock-box transportation taxes to transportation. Ditto at the federal level.

    “MPOs are not much better – because they are not elected…”

    Then let’s elect them and stop having every argument end with “…because there’s no other solution.” Because there is.

    “We do know that there are some toll roads that are not ripping people off.. and are operated responsibly…”

    No. They’re all ripoffs. At a 23% rate of pillage minimum. The corrupt Pennsylvania Turnpike grabs probably 70% graft.

    “true.. she’s a toll road advocate but what is it about what she is saying about the current process that is wrong?”

    She’s lying about the gas tax being busted. Her data are lies.

    “Isn’t she basically correct about the current process?”

    I’m for fixing the process, not for replacing it with something more corrupt.

    Look how crazy these Aussie toll road companies are: a housewife and a 26 year old just bought one-fifth of a toll road for $50,000 USD. Hello? Is anybody out there? I mean what do I need to show you before you are convinced these books are more cooked than the turkey at the mother-in-law’s place?

    It’s not just Brisconnections. Macquarie and Transurban are built on the same bogus accounting tricks that made the crooks from Enron filthy rich.

    We’d get a better deal selling our roads to the Yakuza.

  37. Jim Bacon Avatar

    Charlie 8:37 a.m. You are absolutely right. I meant electricity. Thanks for pointing out the error.

  38. Anonymous Avatar

    Larry, do you support universal tolls?

    RH

  39. what’s universal tolls?

    I support tolls over gasoline taxes….for building new roads.

    I support the gasoline tax to pay for maintenance of already-built roads.

    If we don’t like the current private company toll road path..then let’s do American versions.

    I see nothing wrong ..with many toll road operations.. including the New Jersey Turnpike, the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel… the Powhite Parkway… the Nice Bridge.. and dozens of others…

    are there bad examples of toll roads? yes.

    are there bad examples of gas tax slush funds – yes.

    but I do not think that toll roads are inherently corrupt…

    and I do believe that when you have to pay for every trip – it much more a quid-pro-quo transaction.. and thus much more subject to a more direct assessment by the customer.

    The portion of the gas tax NOT used for road maintenance is a SCAM.. worse than tolls roads.

    When you have folks like Dennis Hastert able to get his hands on 280 million dollars worth of taxpayer funds ..and to direct it’s use to a project that will personally benefit him.. and I can cite dozens of examples like this – and Bob says we need to reform this..

    I want to know how you do it.

    It’s the nature of the beast.

    Bob sez you have a secret process with the TOLL companies.

    I’d ask.. what is more secret than a Congressman .. earmarking more than 200 million dollars to enrich his own bottom line… and we find out after the fact.

    Apparently.. it’s “okay” for good old “American” congressman to run scams but not for Mary Peters or the Australians.

    and what’s the point here.. there are also Spanish and other countries that do toll roads.. and what would be wrong with an American Company running a toll road…??

    would we still be talking about those “foreigners” ripping off us Americans?

    I’m honest enough to admit that I support tolls over gas taxes.

    If others are fundamentally opposed to the CONCEPT of tolls …why bring up all the stuff about “foreigners” ripping us off with “secret” contracts?

    are you …or are you not … opposed to the basic concept of tolls as a way to build new roads? yes or no?

    If the answer is yes… then all this stuff about the aussies and secret contracts is just a smokescreen…

    If the answer is no.. then let’s hear about the conditions under which ..tolling is acceptable ( and not ).

    For instance, is tolling an acceptable way to pay for the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel?

    Should it have been paid for by all Virginians through their gas taxes?

    Is there ANY existing toll road that is acceptable?

    the “us” against “them” and “things I don’t like are scams” is dull and boring…stuff.. though apparently popular with some kinds of “investigative media” (NOT!).

    and as far as media is concerned.. you’ve got Rush L and Oreilly and Hannity.. right?

    if these guys don’t get the “goods” on these foreigner scams.. who will?

  40. “and I do believe that when you have to pay for every trip – it much more a quid-pro-quo transaction.”

    You can’t take a trip in an automobile without paying the gas tax.

    “but I do not think that toll roads are inherently corrupt…”
    “what would be wrong with an American Company running a toll road…??”

    This is what you’re missing. They are inherently corrupt because they skim a massive amount of money off the top. With the gas tax, collection costs are next to nothing (remember: retailers DON’T collect it — except NOVA’s extra tax). The cost of the collection bureaucracy is 22% minimum. Usually it’s more.

    And it means cameras scanning every passing car and recording where and when you travel. And it means bogus tickets going to people when the toll road equipment fails — you are presumed guilty in these cases. Lose your license and your job because of that? Too bad.

    And when toll booths or special lanes (non-buffer-separated HOT) are involved, it means MORE DEADLY ACCIDENTS.

    “Is there ANY existing toll road that is acceptable?”

    No.

    “Apparently.. it’s ‘okay’ for good old ‘American’ congressman to run scams but not for Mary Peters or the Australians.”

    It doesn’t matter if the money comes in through tolls or gas tax. Polticians can and will redirect it to pet projects. Like Dulles rail. So this is a red herring. But, yes, legislative earmarks are more open than secret tolling contracts. They’re in print and on the web.

    I can throw Denny Hastert, or his party, out of office. I can’t do anything about Mary Peters or Australians. By the way, Denny is out of office already and might face charges if the prosecutors looking into the Abramoff scandal bother digging a bit more deeply.

    “If others are fundamentally opposed to the CONCEPT of tolls …why bring up all the stuff about ‘foreigners’ ripping us off with ‘secret’ contracts?”

    Because these things are happening in Virginia. Because these things are being held up on Bacons Rebellion as the model of perfection that should be adopted everywhere. Because people, including Larry, cite Mary Peters and other toll road employees who write that these deals are the wave of the future.

    Yes, there are other foreign countries besides Australia involved in the racket. But it’s a scam, as charlie mentioned above, that depends on cheap financing.

    “the ‘us’ against ‘them’ and ‘things I don’t like are scams’ is dull and boring…stuff.. though apparently popular with some kinds of ‘investigative media’ (NOT!).”

    Sigh. Nobody wrote about Enron before it was too late, except investor Jim Chanos who shorted the company and made himself more rich. Guess who’s sounding the alarm about these Australian companies? Yep, the same guy. And he’s made a bundle shorting Transurban’s sister company, Macquarie. It’s down 60% from last year, with the fall starting the day after Chanos explained how the toll road company uses the same double-bookkeeping scam that filled Enron’s pockets.

    But until the Washington Post and the NY Times bless the opinion as worth having, Larry isn’t interested.

    And we’re about to enter a second deal with this company that will last 80 years. But to question that puts one in the category of “Rush Limbaugh listener”, which Larry equates with a raving fool.

    I think the better definition of ‘fool’ is anyone who thinks an 80 year contract with anyone is ever a good thing.

  41. re: NYT, WaPO, Rush and toll scams.

    Is the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel a Scam?

    no I don’t need to read it in the NYT or the WaPo or TollRoad news…

    I read a LOT of different publications INCLUDING listing to Rush/Oreilly/Hannity/and their ilk … ravings about all manner of conspiracies …

    I asked before – are ALL Toll Roads Scams?

    or is it ONLY the ones not run directly by Government?

    I’m trying to get to the root of the anti-toll sentiment.

    I fundamentally believe that TOLLs are better because there is a direct connection between the person who actually pays and what they actually get.

    Yes.. there are pitfalls and some obvious bad examples..

    but there are also IMHO GOOD toll roads…

    I fundamentally believe that the more a tax is collected and put into a general fund …that the decisions about how to spend it are far, far more hidden and less transparent than a toll road.

    and if a particular toll road has become abusive… people know it.. and if enough of them complain enough..to elected officials.. the potential for change is there…

    but the problem with the gas tax is that the process for spending it – is hidden..

    Most folks, for instance, do not even know that 3 cents of the Federal Gas Tax is automatically diverted into mass transit.

    Most folks don’t know that at the same time we are warning about dangerous bridges -that existing available money is DIVERTED into other road projects.. often for economic reasons to benefit developers.

    If that is not a SCAM… what is?

    If you ask most folks who regularly use a specific toll road how much the toll is -they’ll know.

    But if you ask most folks how much money is spent on roads where they live.. they have NO CLUE.

    Further, if you ask them to name the top 3 priorities planned .. they have NO CLUE.

    When citizens have NO CLUE about how their gas taxes are being spent.. guess what happens?

    Bob names all manner of “abuses” .. that are inherent in the current gas tax system.. he especially rants on about how highway money is “diverted” for inappropriate…even wrong purposes….

    but he favors continuation of it and his ideas about how to “reform” it are ..at best.. vague and uncertain.

    Heck.. I’d be in favor of the gas tax path and opposed to tolls if I actually saw a viable reform path… but I’ve not seen any .. and to be perfectly honest.. the ONLY public official who has said that the current gas tax system IS A SCAM is.. Mary Peters…

    who Bob attacked as a toll advocate.. rather than AGREEING with Mary Peters are her initial assertion that the current system is a SCAM.

    So.. I guess.. it boils down to what SCAM that we like and what SCAM that we don’t.

    For myself.. we’ve had the gas tax for a long time.. and I’ve not seen it get better… only worse… and now.. that most of the money that is collected must go for maintenance with little left over for new construction.. I say.. let it go.

    Bob actually AGREEs on this but for some reason he refuses to believe that a lot of the gas tax revenues actually go to maintain existing roads.. and that the more miles that you add to the system.. the higher the cost of maintaining them.

  42. “I asked before – are ALL Toll Roads Scams?”

    No. All toll roads are rip-offs. Some toll roads are scams — and by scam I mean a criminal conspiracy to enrich a small number of individuals at the public expense. Transurban is run by criminals, don’t forget. Many transportation earmarks are scams, but not necessarily rip-offs.

    “I’m trying to get to the root of the anti-toll sentiment.”

    Toll roads are massively wasteful and extremely dangerous. Replacing the gas tax with tolls in Virginia would be incinerate $1 billion every five years, minimum (the real number is higher). What more reason do you need?

    “I fundamentally believe that TOLLs are better because there is a direct connection between the person who actually pays and what they actually get.”

    No. This is not true. Please separate out the issues in your mind: collection vs. spending. We’re agreed on the spending problem.

    Toll collection does NOTHING to address the monetary diversion. Case in point: Dulles Toll Road. This isn’t just a one-off anomaly, the 395 deal explicitly will also divert tolls into mass transit boondoggles. There is no essential connection whatsoever between the method of collection of the money and how politicians spend it.

    “and if a particular toll road has become abusive… people know it.. and if enough of them complain enough..to elected officials.. the potential for change is there…”

    Wrong. The whole point of outsourcing the toll collection process to foreign companies is for politicians to (a) spend billions that won’t be repaid for 80 years; and (b) to escape accountability by letting someone else raise the tolls for them. The public will have no leverage over Transurban. None. Except by buying them out — which happened in the “model” 91 HOT lanes in Orange County. In that case, the public ended up making a lump-sum payment greater than the actual cost of building the lanes just to get out from under the private contractor. That’s the kind of “change” that Transurban is praying for — a multi-billion dollar payday that would reflect a stunning return on their “investment” in Virginia lawmakers.

    “that existing available money is DIVERTED into other road projects.. often for economic reasons to benefit developers. If that is not a SCAM… what is?”

    Diversion is bad, but it’s not that bad to have public money taken from one public purpose and put to another public purpose. I don’t like it. I especially don’t like buses. But I’d rather have buses and trolleys than have the public’s money taken and spent improving Australian roads.

    For every dollar of your toll, at least 25 cents is going down under. Or, on the government-run toll systems like the Pennsylvania Turnpike, the first 25 cents will go to union goons collecting the tolls and another 25 cents goes to the mob. Or on the Dulles Toll Road, 75 cents will go to the Airport Authority.

    “Bob names all manner of ‘abuses’ .. that are inherent in the current gas tax system.. he especially rants on about how highway money is ‘diverted’ for inappropriate…even wrong purposes….but he favors continuation of it and his ideas about how to ‘reform’ it are ..at best.. vague and uncertain.”

    There is NO ABUSE in the collection of the gas tax. None. Zero, zip, nada. Got that? There is no abuse in the collection of the gas tax.

    I think I need to repeat that.

    There is no abuse in the collection of the gas tax.

    I’m addressing the heart of the problem, which is the political decision on how to spend the money collected. Erecting a ridiculous Rube Goldberg toll collection mechanism doesn’t do anything at all to protect against diversion. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing.

    “the ONLY public official who has said that the current gas tax system IS A SCAM is.. Mary Peters…”

    That’s not even remotely true. The entire Club for Growth/Citizens Against Government Waste/anti-earmark crowd (now with 40 elected members of congress on board) have been crying for earmark reform for years. Mary Peters takes the truth about earmarks, then adds a lot of lies (e.g. “sustainability”), to set herself up to cash in big next year. If she had any integrity, she’d recuse herself from issuing statements specifically designed to enrich her former/future employers.

  43. geeze Bob.. no abuse in the collection of the gas tax…equates to no abuse in the spending of it?

    If you collect the gas tax with one premise… and then you spend it in ways that people would have never agree to if they knew…

    you say this is “okay”?

    even if they spend the money on office drapes, buses and METRO…

    Of all the TOLL roads in operation very few actually divert money to Mass Transit.. the vast majority put the money back into the road being tolled.

    this is the case with the Chesapeake Bay Bridge Tunnel.. is it not?

    Bob – do you think the Chesapeake Bay Bridge tunnel is a scam? how about a waste of money? how about unsafe because of the tolls it charges?

    how about it being ANY of the things that you say are reasons why toll roads are bad?

    The question again: “Should the CBBT not be a toll road and instead be funded with gas taxes?”

    fess up fella.. if you are opposed to any/all tolls..then you should be opposed to any/all toll roads on the same basis that you cite as your opposition.

    In other words.. are you opposed ONLY to toll roads that are, in your mind..wasteful scams.. or are you opposed to tolling – period?

    If you are opposed to tolling period – on the principles.. then why bring up all the abuses that are NOT universal with respect to ALL toll roads?

    Why is your basic argument?

    are you opposed to scams and wasteful spending of ANY kind ..no matter the purpose….and that include SOME tolls roads..

    or do you accept scams and wasteful things for the things you support but you use the same argument to be opposed to things you don’t like?

    If you are opposed to tolls AND you are opposed to an increase in the gasoline tax.. then is it your belief that we don’t need more money to build more roads ?

  44. “geeze Bob.. no abuse in the collection of the gas tax…equates to no abuse in the spending of it?”

    Huh? How many times do I need to say it: collection and spending are two different issues.

    I’ll try to rephrase that.

    COLLECTION AND SPENDING ARE TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES.

    The gas tax has no collection problems. None. There are spending problems.

    Tolls have collection problems. They also have spending problems.

    Let me draw the obvious conclusion: Tolling isn’t a solution to the real problem, which is spending.

    Politicians are the cause of the spending problem. The political problem exists regardless of how one collects the money.

    “If you collect the gas tax with one premise… and then you spend it in ways that people would have never agree to if they knew…you say this is ‘okay’?”

    You’re not even trying to read what I’m typing, are you? How do you get “okay” from what I actually wrote: “Diversion is bad, but it’s not that bad to have public money taken from one public purpose and put to another public purpose. I don’t like it.”

    My point is not that it is okay, but there are worse problems created by tolling. Just because I’d rather be assaulted than murdered doesn’t mean I’m “okay” with assaults.

    “Bob – do you think the Chesapeake Bay Bridge tunnel is a scam? how about a waste of money? how about unsafe because of the tolls it charges?”

    I’ve said many times, I know as much about the Chesapeake Bay Tunnel as I do about the secret tunnel under the Mormon Temple in Utah. But if this tunnel has toll booths, it’s dangerous. see video. The single most dangerous roads of any kind are freeways with toll booths on them. That is fact, but you won’t hear it from Mary Peters or Reason Foundation.

    “The question again: ‘Should the CBBT not be a toll road and instead be funded with gas taxes?’”

    Yes. Because if you buy these projects up front with public money you could in effect Buy Three Projects and Get One Free. Or you can throw the public’s money down the rathole.

    “If you are opposed to tolls AND you are opposed to an increase in the gasoline tax.. then is it your belief that we don’t need more money to build more roads ?”

    I believe we have a political problem and that the only solution is political. Stop the political diversion and there’s plenty of money for new roads. If even more money is needed, the most efficient and honorable means of collection would be a small increase in the gas tax.

  45. okay.. so .. what I get out of this is that you are opposed to toll roads – all toll roads – whether they are private or govt – on principle…

    even if they are EZ-pass only with no toll booths…

    and.. you are in favor of a gasoline tax increase – “small” but this is like pregnancy right?

    😉

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