Doesn’t Anyone Read These Things To See If They Make Sense?

by Dick Hall-Sizemore

In preparing my recent article on tax cuts, I was going to include a section on the need for increases in teacher salaries. In researching the issue, I discovered that the Department of Education (DOE) submits to the General Assembly a survey of teacher salaries in Virginia.

I was delighted because that was exactly the type of data I needed. However, as I went through the numbers, I came to the conclusion that I could not use them. There were so many anomalies that I could not trust the numbers.

The first one that really caught my eye was Henrico County. The average teacher salary in FY2021 was $52,687 and in FY 2022, $56,251. But, for FY 2023, the “budgeted average teacher salary” was $90,621, a 61.1% increase over FY 2022!  “Whoa,” I thought. “That can’t be right. If Henrico teachers had gotten a 60% raise, I’m sure I would have heard about it.” To make it even more confusing, in another section which compiled the local school division’s comments on actions taken in FY 2023, Henrico reported, “No action taken to improve teachers’ salaries.”

Struck by this screwy data, I looked at the data for other localities. That for Greensville County was even more of a mess. According to the report, the FY 2021 average teacher’s salary was $54,932. In FY 2022, it decreased by 29.9% to $38,501, but the budgeted average teacher salary in FY 2023 rebounded by 84.7% to $71,105. There were similar inconsistencies in the entries for a large number of school divisions.

Thinking that there must be a reasonable explanation for this data that looked all wrong, I contacted the Department of Education’s Office of Communications. That office is without a director now (I was told that Charles Pyle, the former director, had retired) and I was instructed to send my inquiry to a generic e-mail address. I got this standard reply:

Thank you for contacting us regarding issues related to our students and education in the Commonwealth. Given the volume of requests for information received each day by our office, we will process your request for information as soon as possible.

That was on Sept. 13, two weeks ago. I am still waiting for an answer. In contrast, when I sent a request to Charles Pyle for some information on Jan. 16 of this year, he replied on Jan. 20. And that was during the General Assembly session, probably his busiest time.

This is an official report to the General Assembly.  It is relied on by the media, interest groups, and, presumably, the General Assembly and its staff. Average teacher salaries is a topic that is in the forefront of the discussion of K-12. Every effort should be made to ensure that the data in this report are correct and, if there are significant anomalies, they need to be explained. One could understand a transposed number here and there, but these unexplained inconsistent entries are inexcusable. Finally, when someone from a blog on public policy issues in Virginia calls attention to what seem to be significant errors, one would think that it would be a good idea to pay attention.


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84 responses to “Doesn’t Anyone Read These Things To See If They Make Sense?”

  1. Kathleen Smith Avatar
    Kathleen Smith

    We used to meet as a small group at VDOE and “test” the SOL data before it was released. When the expected low was high or expected high was low, we would go back to the data. Two things can go wrong: VDOE makes a program error. This is highly unlikely, but has happened. The tests for accuracy are in place. The second error comes from division entry. Data is not entered by VDOE. It is entered by the division staff. There are numerous codes and instructions that are provided with training. Doesn’t mean that you will see Apple to Apples. The disciplinary data requires careful attention to detail. The salary data might be the same. Some divisions have 13 steps with 3 increments per step, some 20 steps, some no steps but some other kind of ladder.

  2. Dick, the easiest way to get an answer on the Greensville numbers is to call the superintendent’s office and ask why the Annual Superintendents Report, Table 19, showed such a difference between FY 21 and FY 22 average salaries. VDOE would have to do that to give you an answer, so just go to the source. (I looked at the report and that’s what it said, so that’s where VDOE got it.) I don’t think anyone does look for anomalies. If there had been an error, I believe the superintendent would have to submit a revised report to get it corrected.

  3. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Burdened perhaps? Did somebody include the benefits in the salary? Roughly $15K for health insurance, VRS contribution, etc.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      so total compensation gets them way north of 50K and closer to 90K?

      wow! So a million dollars in funding gets you 11 teachers? zowee! Maybe lower-paid voucher schools are the answer! 😉

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Oh yeah. Easily. A corporate fully burdened multiplier for, oh say, a think tank, would easily exceed 2.5. That would include not only benefits but the cost of all overhead too. So, 1.5 for total compensation is reasonable.

        Consider the difference between the hourly charge to work on your car and the mechanic’s actual wage.

        1. DJRippert Avatar

          That kind of burden would include corporate overhead (like the headquarters building). It is used to allocate non-revenue producing costs back to revenue producing units so that they bear what is considered their fair share of overhead.

          The mechanic’s actual wage is a price that is charge that includes the mechanic’s actual salary, all benefits, a charge for the overhead of owning and operating the garage and profit.

          Direct benefits on top of actual payroll costs should be in the 25% – 35% range.

          1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            That is the percentage (25%) we used in DPB in coming up with a quick estimate of the cost of a position.

          2. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Depends. Healthcare is age-dependent. An old guy making minimum wage would make that 100%

          3. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            That is the percentage (25%) we used in DPB in coming up with a quick estimate of the cost of a position.

  4. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    Here is an idea in regard to the salary data. Some districts could be reporting total compensation. I remember in Loudoun County, when w-2 forms were distributed we also received a total compensation statement that included, salary and benefits. Perhaps that is what is happening. Some districts might include salary data only and others could be reporting total compensation. When I was department chair at Briar Woods I remember when we were hiring new teachers, the HR department would release a Position Control Number for the slot. The PCN included a ball park range of budgeted money for the teaching position and the number included salary and benefits.

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Should have read this first.

    2. That’s not how Table 19 for average salaries is set up, but who knows where the budget numbers came from.

      1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead

        I think I am right. Take a look at page 61.

    3. The jargon used to be “the multiplier” which is used to not only account for the non-salary benefits and the employers share of taxes but also accounts for any additional overhead that hiring the next person creates.

  5. VaPragamtist Avatar
    VaPragamtist

    Even with that issue resolved, I question how useful this data is.

    According to the document, “To calculate each school’s average salary, the salaries of each teacher who works in the school were summed and divided by the FTE total of all teachers (full-time and part-time) in the school.”

    A key variable missing here is years of service. I would guess that most school divisions have some sort of step scale. That means that in a school division where a group of teachers retiring at the same time with 30+ years of experience is going to see a decrease in their average salary. This is especially true in school divisions in rural localities, places with fewer teachers (lower denominator).

    A more useful report would include years of service in the calculation in order to provide a more apples-to-apples comparison.

    1. How about we just work toward accuracy before trying to do anything more detailed?

    2. LarrytheG Avatar

      Yes. A histogram type chart with years of service on the X axis and compensation on the Y-axis and color code on the bars showing the salary, health care, retirement, etc.

      Could do that with a spreadsheet pretty easy if it were populated with the data.

    3. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      I agree with you. However, for a report like this, the method of calculating the average is acceptable, as long as everyone understands what methodology is being used. In fact, there are instances in which the average teacher salary in a division declined slightly from 2021 to 2022. These primarily were from smaller divisions and I assumed that the declines could be attributed to an unusual number of senior teachers leaving or retiring.

      1. And there will be a distribution of retirees that is likely to be roughly consistent across the state with standard deviations and other statistical measures.

        As Nancy noted above the law of large numbers will flatten local variances and allow use of aggregate averages.

        You fingered the big problem, numbers that on their face were wildly wrong. Was nobody either state or local doing a sanity check before publishing them?

  6. Excellent questions, Dick. Keep pursuing this. How can we possibly have an informed debate about teacher salaries if we don’t have reliable information on how much they are paid?

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      In probability theory, the law of large numbers (LLN) is a theorem that describes the result of performing the same experiment a large number of times.

      According to the law, the average of the results obtained from a large number of trials should be close to the expected value and tends to become closer to the expected value as more trials are performed.

      1. What is interesting is watching individual variances, even large ones, flatten out as you accumulate more data. Accumulate enough numbers and they’ll stand up and talk to you.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Right. And there’s way over 100 schools reporting. 100 is an amazingly large number. That’s why half dozen screwed up samples really has little effect on the report’s results.

          1. Yeah, but once you trip over some really bad data it’s hard not to start looking for more, and often finding it. That’s the problem with a can of worms, once you kick it there’s lots of the buggers. Confidence in the data set often goes downhill from there.

            How’s the Navy put it when relieving commanders…. something like lost confidence in his ability to lead?

    2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead

      I think the best number is total compensation. That informs the taxpayer of the true cost of staff and staffing makes up the bulk of school systems budget.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        1,846 teachers in spotsy county
        3,100 total employees

        how to report?

        1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead

          Mr. Larry there is so much behind the curtain…

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            yeah… but I think most school systems are like this. There are a lot of employees that
            are not teachers…

          2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            In Loudoun and Fauquier instructional aides and bus drivers have benefits. The works. The cost of total compensation is much more than reported here. You are right. So many people are needed to make the system run on a daily basis and they don’t have a teaching license.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar

            53 Loudoun

            instruction: 1,201,290,311
            Administration 57,657,662
            transportation 69,304,344
            op/maint 217,767,225
            food 40,808,203

            https://www.apa.virginia.gov/APA_Reports/LG_ComparativeReports.aspx

  7. LarrytheG Avatar

    With respect to health care benefits. Locally retired teachers do not receive health insurance. They are expected to choose some kind of Medicare Advantage of which the school has a plan but I’m not sure they put any money into it… it’s just an arrangement with their insurance for current employees.

    I’m not sure if this is the way most schools in Virginia do it.

    This can impact total compensation big time!

    This is a place where the State could help both retired teachers and currently employed teachers as well as county taxpayers.

    1. DJRippert Avatar

      Why would that impact compensation? The locally retired teachers are retired and, I assume, receive no salary from the school. Beyond that – if the school is paying nothing into the Medicare Advantage plan, there is no cost to allocate.

      Why would retired teachers have anything to do with the current teachers’ salaries?

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Do retired teachers get a pension and health care?

        1. DJRippert Avatar

          Yes, but that shouldn’t count in statistics about teachers’ salaries.

          If I ask you how much a Staff Sergeant in the US Army makes the calculation wouldn’t include any payments to retired Army personnel.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            so, for an existing employee… you count salary, plus money set aside for retirement… and for health insurance if that is also a compensated benefit?

            I don’t understand how it all works but I see this phrase in budget discussions for county and school:

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7cf48b114047059c1e9bd921e05b1ffe38ed544f1be0878daa4e642ea1fdc6bc.jpg

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            total compensation per employee?

  8. DJRippert Avatar

    Send the report to your state Delegate and state Senator. Ask them how they are able to make good decisions on budgets and legislation with apparently flawed data.

    Same with Governor Youngkin.

    Also ask why you can’t get a timely answer from DOE.

    At the end of the day, our elected politicians are responsible for the operation of the state – whether they like it or not.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      It’s pretty much on Youngkin… it’s his agency.

  9. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    Shall we now examine the government data backing up the climate catastrophe narrative? Gee, that’s all totally trustworthy, right?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      you mean you don’t trust NASA and NOAA data?

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Well, a clerk isn’t usually a Ph.D.

      1. Whether the data come from clerks or Ph.D’s, you’ll encounter the same issues regarding consistency and comparability of data collected from many different sources. And the issue is likely to be amplified when the data comes from many different countries.

        And no “different country” jokes regarding Wise County vs. Falls Church, please… 😉

      2. Whether the data come from clerks or Ph.D’s, you’ll encounter the same issues regarding consistency and comparability of data collected from many different sources. And the issue is likely to be amplified when the data comes from many different countries.

        And no “different country” jokes regarding Wise County vs. Falls Church, please… 😉

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Different century jokes okay?
          Guess which one parties like it’s 1799?

  10. LarrytheG Avatar

    Some of this may well be due to changes in staff and leadership at the agency..

    I see this in RTD:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7821a0e935d7412b2186c78e47fe963647c5022604a1588dc10fcc8db8f8edfb.jpg

    ” The state Board of Education in June approved a new partnership with iTeach, a for-profit company offering online teacher training, as a way to help curb Virginia’s teacher shortage and allow aspiring educators to bypass the high cost and years long commitment of earning an education degree from a university. The approval included authorization to certify special education teachers through iTeach.

    Members of the state Board of Education did not know at the time that Virginia Department of Education staff had reviewed iTeach’s special education courses and found that they do not meet minimum state standards.

    Documents the Richmond Times-Dispatch obtained through a public records request show that the special education courses provided by iTeach do not cover several key areas that state regulations require. Emails from state superintendent Lisa Coons to other state education officials show that she was looking for a way to limit the dissemination of records to the newspaper.”

    https://richmond.com/companys-special-ed-courses-fall-short/article_42b1acc0-d573-5d66-aed8-8d784ab3e3fd.html?utm_medium=social&utm_source=email&utm_campaign=user-share

    I’m not dinging the agency for the specific issue here , just pointing out that there have been staff and leadership changes, and balls do get dropped when that happens sometimes.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      The report I was using was delivered to the General Assembly in January 2023, before all the turnover at the top levels of the agency.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Probably people retired when it became clear that DOE leadership was going to change. But STILL before it goes out the door, SOMEONE ought to be giving it a smell test …. That report could be of real use to some divisions trying to figure out if they are offering “competitive” salary and benefits. I know when Spotsy deals with the issue, they are going out to other schools and asking for that data to use for their analysis and “ask”.

        1. Benchmarking.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            yep. also knowledge about processes and functions lost… degradation of quality/quantity of
            work products.. screw-ups by newbies… etc…

  11. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    I considered all of the possibilities mentioned and even considered calling one of the local divisions to ask about the numbers.

    Kathleen is correct that the data comes from the divisions. The report makes that clear. However, that does not excuse DOE. In preparing this report that is required by law, DOE staff should have been alert to any data that seemed inconsistent or wrong and gone back to the division to double check it.

    The possibility that the data included fringe benefits in addition to salary occurred to me. That was one of the questions I posed to DOE in my inquiry. If it includes fringes, that is misleading, but at least the data would have been consistent. However, if it included fringes for some divisions and not others, that is a whole different problem and makes the whole report even more unreliable.

    Yes, I could have called Henrico and Greensville and asked about their data. However, those were not the only divisions whose numbers were suspicious. Furthermore, the burden should not be on me, the user, to validate the data. Certainly, members of the General Assembly are not going behind the data to see if it is correct.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      If DOE is collecting data (like the auditor of public accounts does from localities and schools als0 for other data), then DOE, needs to set the standards for the data and be responsible for validating and normalizing it I would think… and with respect to “transparency”, completely unacceptable for DOE to stonewall the info and issue.

      They just sent a mess outside their door… not very professional…………

    2. Matt Adams Avatar

      ” However, that does not excuse DOE. In preparing this report that is required by law, DOE staff should have been alert to any data that seemed inconsistent or wrong and gone back to the division to double check it.”

      It also shouldn’t have been that hard, clearly it’s in Excel. Something of that magnitude of an increase is an easy enough flag through conditional formatting.

      I looked up HCPS and they have a table listing the 2023-2024 financial plan, the only thing approaching the $90K is somethin with a Master’s and 40+ years of teaching experience. It’s also only $83k.

      https://www.henricoschools.us/page/adopted-2023-2024-teacher-placement-chart-for-external-new-hires

    3. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      In the computer world, there’s an old saying, “Garbage In, Garbage Out”.

  12. Maybe Mr. Pyle “retired” to become a teacher in Henrico County…

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      I know a couple of three guys live there. Two of ‘em are such that you couldn’t pay me enough to move there. 😊

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        actually CHOSE to live in a “progressive” county… geeze…

      2. “a couple of three guys”

        Sounds like a gay menage. 🙂

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Well, they sound happy.

  13. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    “Doesn’t Anyone Read These Things To See If They Make Sense?“

    In short, no. Why would they? No one uses just a single line in the data. They highlight the column entries, total, average, and calculate other basic statistical values.

    An error here or there has no real impact. Perhaps they visualize the data, in which case the two or three bad entries jump out, and they’ll just delete them.

    At the State level, in the aggregate, it’s just noise on the signal, and as you have discovered, it’s more work and expense to correct them than discard them, or just use with a grain of salt.

    It makes me wonder how the data was collected. Are the datum fat-fingered?

    BTW, whatever happened to Counties #61, #99, #100? Are they missing? 😁

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      The problem is that it is not “an error here or there.” A lot of it is suspect and that makes one wonder about the data that seems OK. How reliable is any of it? Furthermore, large errors in large jurisdictions such as Henrico can make a significant difference in the statewide average.

      To answer your last question, a little history is needed. In addition to the numbers you mentioned, number 47 and 64 are missing. There used to be 100 counties. Since the 1950s, five counties (Nansemond, Norfolk, Elizabeth City, Warwick, and Princess Anne) have disappeared through the city-county consolidations that occurred in Hampton Roads. I am speculating that the list of county school divisions used by DOE was compiled before all these consolidations were done. Rather than renumber the list, DOE simply dropped the county. Nansemond would fit in slot #61 and Norfolk County would fit in slot #64. My theory is a littly shaky because I can’t figure out what would have gone in slot #47.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Localities are supposed to deliver other data on their financial , specific data in specific formats to the Auditor of Public Accounts.. Most do it but some have been late and others more than late.

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2a4013ff52b57fcf3085369b91aae0dc342612aa40794b5bec49516f22da44f2.jpg

        https://www.apa.virginia.gov/APA_Reports/LG_ComparativeReports.aspx

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Well, either that or they’re rows in a spread lost to line breaks.

        For this report, only the first 3 or 4 tables count. The rest are just the numbers summarized in those tables. The real juice is found in the 100+ similar reports for each division or county. Those are what you want, and probably won’t find without pulling teeth and fingernails, and EVEN then may not be available because they contain personal identifying information, aka PII.

        The best way to hide something, or to “classify” it is to include PII.

  14. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    One of the ways Youngkin is claiming to be dealing with the teacher shortage (especially in special education) is through iTeach. Now comes a report that they don’t meet state standards:

    https://richmond.com/news/state-regional/education/iteach-special-ed-courses-did-not-meet-virginia-standards/article_1a7c9d82-5cbb-11ee-9b78-bb2353cec0b6.html

    1. Yes. Larry posted that earlier.

      A real “egg on their face” moment for the Youngkin administration.

      1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        Ah… I was distracted in Canada… hard to keep up…

  15. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Here’s a question. Why rely on each county, city, school division, or even DoE to gather this information? They’re all State employees. Their checks are cut by payroll. All the necessary data is in the State Dept of Personnel. Single source.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      Well if it’s anything like the Auditor of Public Accounts and the “required” locality comparative report data:

      ” Table 1 presents information on the 58 localities that were late with submitting their required FY2022 Comparative Report transmittal data to the Auditor of Public Accounts by the statutory
      deadline of December 15. Table 1 also shows the number of times these localities have been late with submitting their data over the past ten fiscal years, to include the current fiscal year 2022.”

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8e1835ac104c362f997b8146dcf97662704d1b1b1e8c0517b406fbc39c69f49b.jpg

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Virginia— 400 years of fiefdoms unhampered by central government

        1. DJRippert Avatar

          Or 400 years of central government unhampered by accountability or ethics.

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            The Virginia Way..

    2. Actually, they are not state employees, they are school system employees which makes them quasi-county or city employees.

      Furthermore, in many (most?) counties and cities, the local government administration does not even handle the school system’s payroll – the schools system does its own.

      The state will only have detailed “payroll” information for retired teachers whose pensions are through VRS.

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Well, that’s duplication of effort to an extreme. Bet I know how I could give every teacher a nice fat raise, and save the State a clear ton of money.

        1. Maybe, maybe not. The state uses a formula to distribute its funding among localities. Changes in localities efficiencies will affect locally funded costs but won’t have much of an impact on state expenditures.

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Well, ai was thinking that you don’t need the personnel in each district to maintain the data. You hav 100 offices of X personnel doing what one office of 3X people could do. Remember, they’re not in competition, they’re duplication.

          2. I’m not sure I would support handling payroll for every locality’s school system and government employees at the state level. Of course I’m not sure I wouldn’t support it either. I’ve never given it much thought.

            But at the very least, each locality should pay its government employees and its school system employees out of the same payroll office. Separating those at the local level is just silly.

          3. The couple of localities I’m aware of do it that way, but I’ve no clue how it is handled across the state.

            The economies of automated payroll systems scale very well. It does not take much of a payroll department to pay a lot of people.

            One payroll department for both local government and school system is easy. Two master files or a simple binary flag in the employee file to toggle school or local government and two check/direct deposit/941/W2/etc runs to keep them separate is not hard. It is not a big overhead. HR on the other hand….

          4. The couple of localities I’m aware of do it that way, but I’ve no clue how it is handled across the state.

            The economies of automated payroll systems scale very well. It does not take much of a payroll department to pay a lot of people.

            One payroll department for both local government and school system is easy. Two master files or a simple binary flag in the employee file to toggle school or local government and two check/direct deposit/941/W2/etc runs to keep them separate is not hard. It is not a big overhead. HR on the other hand….

          5. The couple of localities I’m aware of do it that way, but I’ve no clue how it is handled across the state.

            The economies of automated payroll systems scale very well. It does not take much of a payroll department to pay a lot of people.

            One payroll department for both local government and school system is easy. Two master files or a simple binary flag in the employee file to toggle school or local government and two check/direct deposit/941/W2/etc runs to keep them separate is not hard. It is not a big overhead. HR on the other hand….

          6. DJRippert Avatar

            The report should be a simple roll up from the payroll systems.

            Lots of big companies have many subsidiaries with differing payroll systems.

            Somehow those companies can accurately report their employee costs in audited financial statement each quarter within 30 days of the quarter ending.

            Hint: They don’t use armies of clerks to figure it out.

      2. DJRippert Avatar

        Ok, thanks. That’s what I thought.

    3. DJRippert Avatar

      Ok, I must have been out to lunch for a while. The teachers in local, public school districts work for the state?

      “Today, FCPS employs more than 15,000 outstanding educators, who engage and inspire students at the elementary, middle, and high school levels.”

      “The Fairfax County Public Schools system (FCPS) is a school division in the U.S. commonwealth of Virginia. It is a branch of the Fairfax County government which administers public schools in Fairfax County and the City of Fairfax.”

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Okay, okay. I thought they were State employees. Managed locally. Paid by the State.
        Well, because that would make sense.

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