Perhaps you could call Nina Teicholz a “diet denier.” The journalist and author of “The Big Fat Surprise: Why Butter, Meat and Cheese Belong in a Health Diet,” is part of the growing backlash against a half century-long orthodoxy that aimed to limit fat and cholesterol in the American diet. That orthodoxy, which ruled the medical establishment and the federal health apparatus, unwittingly engineered a society-wide shift to the sugar-heavy diet now deemed responsible for the surge in obesity and heart disease that afflicts the country.

In her book, Teicholz delved into the history of how fats, trans-fats and cholesterol came to be demonized and how public policy strove to drive fats out of the American diet. The movement began in the 1950s with a famous study by Ancel Keys, which postulated a link between cholesterol and heart health. The American Heart Association jumped on the bandwagon in 1961, the United States Department of Agriculture issued new dietary guidelines in 1978, and momentum built from there. Food companies rolled out low-fat, low-cholesterol food products, typically substituting sugar and salt for fat. Pharmaceutical companies introduced anti-cholesterol drugs. Schools and media brainwashed generations of Americans to change their behavior.

How could things have gone so wrong? As Teicholz explains in her TED talk above:

The same group of people were on all the expert panels. They all reviewed each others’ papers. These groups controlled all of the funding, so if you didn’t get on this cholesterol bandwagon, you couldn’t get funding, you couldn’t do research, you couldn’t be a scientist. Over the course of 25 years, this diet-heart hypothesis became ingrained in the institutions. There became an institutional bias. There was a bias in the media. And everybody lined up behind this hypothesis. You couldn’t be a scientist if you didn’t get on board.

Thankfully, a new generation of scientists questioned the orthodoxy. Now researchers are focusing on the excess consumption of sugar as the main culprit responsible for our dietary woes.

Fortunately, we’ve learned from our mistakes. Our scientific, media and government officials would never enforce another orthodoxy on the grounds that “97 percent of all scientists” in a given field agree that “the science is settled.”  We’d never rig the peer-review process to suppress unpopular scientific viewpoints. We’d never channel billions of dollars of federal funding into supporting one particular point of view of a massively complex phenomenon while de-funding dissenters. We’d never demonize skeptics as “anti-science,” tools of evil, self-interested corporations and moral analogues of holocaust deniers. We’re far too enlightened in the United States to ever let that happen.

Or are we?

— JAB


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26 responses to “Diet Denier”

  1. larryg Avatar

    Jim – this is a tour de force of ignorance.

    Have you ever heard of a lipid panel?

    this is not one person who postulated something 50 years ago and science “jumped” on it.

    this is thousands of scientists – around the world – for more than 50 years who have arrived at a consensus about nutrition.

    I’m agog – that you’ve bought this…really ignorant blather…

    You go to virtually ANY cardiologist or cardiovascular surgeon and they’ll tell you that it’s NOT sugar that clogs your arteries…

    how can you be taken in by this kind of stuff – guy?

    I’m just agog.

    1. Gee, Larry, did I say sugar clogs arteries? Please tell me where, so I can correct it. Of course, you can’t tell me where because I never said it.

      And please tell me where “one person who postulated something 50 years ago and science jumped on it.” I said the movement began with Ancel Key’s famous study in the 50s and gained institutional momentum over the 60s and 70s.

      Before Galileo and Copernicus, thousands of Medieval astronomers thought the sun revolved around the earth. Before Darwin, thousands of scientists believed that species were immutable. So, now you’re invoking the authority of thousands of scientists and nutritionists around the world to defend the veracity of the fat-heart health hypothesis? Ask yourself, despite the expenditure of trillions of dollars and the re-engineering of the American diet why Americans are fatter than ever and heart disease remains the nation’s No. 1 killer.

  2. billsblots Avatar
    billsblots

    “They all reviewed each others’ papers. These groups controlled all of the funding, so if you didn’t get on this cholesterol bandwagon, you couldn’t get funding, you couldn’t do research, you couldn’t be a scientist. ”

    ROFL. While reading this paragraph it was screaming the same intimidation and censorship that controls the inner circle of the largest fraud ever perpetrated on the human race.

    Why not? Everyone knows scratching each others’ backs is the ticket to automatic continued multi-million dollar, multi-year grants, and countless travel budgets to national and international conferences. No one with a house payment is going to upset the apple cart carrying the golden goose. Everyone knows they’ve got a bottomless cash-cow, and anyone who dares not swallow the insider dogma and hesitates to enthusiastically endorse the latest computer model or shocking finding is immediately censured, and censored, and eliminated.

    Well played JAB.

  3. larryg Avatar

    re: ” Now researchers are focusing on the excess consumption of sugar as the main culprit responsible for our dietary woes.”

    this is anti-science Jim.

    you are basically attacking the Scientific Method:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

    and you’re advocating replacing it with what?

    whoever you wish to believe ?

    we’re talking about everything from DNA to what it takes to launch an missile into space to everything in our lives… and you’re basically saying if thousands of scientists agree on something – it’s either a flawed herd mentality or a conspiracy and that because of that – science cannot be trusted at all – and you prefer instead…. what?

    this is loony.

    1. Larry, it’s time to emerge from Larry World and to peer blinking into the bright sunlight of the real world. Try perusing a Google search of “sugar heart disease” to catch up with the latest science.

      Quote from a CBS News story (not Fox News) dated February 2014: “Scientists aren’t certain exactly how sugar may contribute to deadly heart problems, but it has been shown to increase blood pressure and levels of unhealthy cholesterol and triglycerides; and also may increase signs of inflammation linked with heart disease, said Rachel Johnson, head of the American Heart Association’s nutrition committee and a University of Vermont nutrition professor.”

  4. Here’s another article, published in USA Today two days ago:

    “Sugar not only makes you fat, it may be killing you.

    Consuming too much added sugar — in regular soda, cakes, cookies and candy — increases your risk of death from heart disease, according to a new study, the largest of its type.

    “The risk of cardiovascular disease death increases exponentially as you increase your consumption of added sugar,” says the study’s lead author, Quanhe Yang, a senior scientist with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    1. larryg Avatar

      I have no doubt that TOO MUCH sugar will have harmful effects but it’s also clear that excessive amount of fat will also.

      but what you and those you apparently admire, have done here is claim that only sugar is what counts and that the science about fats – is bogus.

      and further – that the way that science is currently conducted – is itself also bogus.

      go back and read your post.

      It comes across as essentially anti-science.. you no longer trust scientific process and peer reviews apparently.

      let’s not beat around the bush here.

      is that your intent ?

      Are you saying that most all scientists produce results of what the folks who fund them want?

      around the world?

      or perhaps I’m wrong and you should explain where you are drawing the line.

      thanks.

      1. Yeah, I’m saying that science isn’t perfect. It’s two steps forward and sometimes one step backwards. This fat-causes-heart-attacks business is one of the steps backward. How does this happen? Science isn’t perfect because humans aren’t perfect. Sometimes, the system goes haywire. Long-term, scientific inquiry has proven to be *the* best method known to man for accumulating knowledge. We never would have put a many on the Moon if that weren’t true. But science is not perfect.

        1. larryg Avatar

          science is NEVER perfect – we agree. but “deniers” typically has used that reality to, in turn, claim that the entire profession either engage in herd mentality, conspiracy or fraud – when they agree or have a strong consensus.

          this I find loony.

          it does not mean that science is infallible. It has to roll back things that even had consensus on – for decades – true.

          but what do you do instead? believe individuals who maynot even have credentials and whose assertions are not peer-reviewed at all – and those folks tend to group up to support each other – not with science but with little more than strategic alliances of “alternative thought”?

          virtually everything you touch today came about because of science and the scientific method whether it’s pills you take, or your microwave, or the ABS system on your car. Yes, there have been some spectacular “failures” but that does not detract from the near universality of the successes that permutate modern life.

          food and health, in particular, have always been controversial and I have no disagreement with sugar being a problem – until someone says that it’s the whole problem and the fat stuff is bogus science.

          at that point – we’re off the trolley in my view.

          I’m coming around to the point of view that today – in the internet age – where anyone can say anything and some can make it sound “plausible” and others are literally confirming their own biases that we doubt the absoluteness of all of our institutions – from govt to science –

          which is – in part – healthy… but also reminds me of the folks going to Mexico for Laetrile.

          read about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdalin

          and tell me that there is a scientific conspiracy that has debunked a truly effective drug – to pull the wool over people’s eyes who would benefit from it.

          my question is – if someone – even a group of people – promote the efficacy of something without engaging in SOME KIND of scientific method to document it’s performance and have multiple others replicate the experiments – how is that better than a group of scientifically credentialed folks replicating and reaching some level of consensus about the efficacy or accuracy of some belief?

          science screws up – all the time – at some point, who knows, Laetrile may be redeemed and found to be exactly what the proponents claimed – all along.

          but here’s the point. No matter what happens to Laetrile – or Sugar – it does not negate the other science for cancer or diet…

          how does that compute? How could ANY reputable scientific person – do two things – 1. not only claim that their research proves something is true but – 2. in making that claim – make the further claim that because of that – everything else is false?

          how do you PROVE that fats do not cause cardiovascular impacts? just by claiming that sugar does it instead?

          that’s loony.

  5. Richard Avatar

    It’s all about belief. If 97% of scientists agree that humans are causing climate change, those who would prefer to believe that is not true latch on to the remaining 3%. As (the heroic) Al Gore says, climate change is an inconvenient truth – the deniers find it convenient not to believe it. Spineless politicians go right along.

    It’s tragic because the deniers have succeeded in delaying a fix. Meanwhile the environment is degraded and our grandchildren will reap the consequences. I’m amazed that intelligent people like the author of this blog don’t recognize the risk. Suppose all those scientists are right and you’re wrong? Wouldn’t the truly conservative approach be to assume that most of the scientists are right?

    This whole idea of a scientific conspiracy is ridiculous. It’s along the same lines as the media conspiracy. Don’t believe the scientists! Don’t believe the media! Be free to believe whatever you want because there are no longer any authorities.

    1. larryg Avatar

      re: what you want to believe vs Scientific Method –

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

      how do you test and confirm hypothesis of assertions and claims?

      but the skeptics claim that if science fails at confirming any and all hypotheses that it means it fails and if there is agreement, wide-spread consensus – it means either a herd mentality or a global conspiracy.

      so their alternative is to believe assertions that are not independently tested by others but rather just something that seems plausible and appeals to their own beliefs. Someone writes a book – gins up a website and VOILA – they are as credible as any scientist as any group of scientists – to some folks!

      So.. we not only don’t have sugar widely and independently confirmed as actually causing clogged veins and and high levels of cholesterol and triglycerides but combined with that, the even wilder unproven additional assertion that fats do not cause any of it – and again nothing more than a totally unsupported assertion – no studies or evidence – just the claim.

      And people BELIEVE it – AND – at the same time – explicitly discount a legitimate scientific approach – as bogus – because, in their mind, scientists are working to prove what the funders of their work want proved – no matter what the truth really is – as if the person writing the book is not motivated similarly.

      think about what thought processes one has to go through – to arrive at this kind of conclusion.

      basically the entire world of science – that uses scientific method has to be corrupt, function with a herd mentality (when they replicate studies) and carry it out on a global conspiratorial basis when they say they have strong consensus.

      so the entire idea of many independent investigators separately replicating a claim is said to be bogus and conspiratorial – and, in turn, the reason why, people say they will believe one guy making wild and unproven assertions tat are not replicated or confirmed by independent studies.

      it’s just loony. it’s anti-science. the internet has literally fueled a resurgence of Luddite-ism and much of it is allied with those who revise history and promote misinformation and disinformation.

      they put it out there – and it “fits” what some folks want to believe and/or it contradicts what they don’t want to believe and they latch on to it.

      It’s the very opposite of seeking the truth – it’s instead explicitly seeking what confirms one’s own preferences and biases.

      it reminds me of the The Church of Christ, Scientist (a.k.a. Christian Science) and Jehovah’s Witnesses whose “beliefs” subvert and trump medical science and who would – if they could – not have their kids vaccinated or worse – those folks not even affiliated with any religion who believe that fluoride in water supplies and vaccinations in general are government conspiracies.

      the internet is supercharging this kind of thinking – that has pretty much always existed but now it’s on steroids.

      1. Larry, for the record, I want to pin you down: Do you categorically reject the hypothesis that increased sugar consumption plays a heretofore unrecognized role in the incidence of heart disease?

        1. larryg Avatar

          Jim – can you show me in the literature- real scientific studies done by credentialed investigators that largely confirm it?

          If I do not see replicated data done by people with the education necessary to conduct investigations into the phenomena and those folks are promoting results that directly conflict with a large and long-standing body of knowledge – then I treat it like I do what with any individual claims.

          and I want to pin you down on the second premise you are asserting:

          do you think that the influence of sugar precludes fats causing high cholesterol, clogged-arteries , and the need for heart bypasses, etc?

          how do you prove that?

          I answered you – now your turn.

    2. Richard, let’s talk about that 97% figure. It’s meaningless. Let me spell that out for you — M-E-A-N-I-N-G-L-E-S-S. If you polled the scientific skeptics of climate change alarmism, even they would all agree that (1) humans are mainly responsible for rising CO2 levels, (2) CO2 contributes to warming temperatures, and (3) temperatures have, in fact, warmed over (pick your time period) the past 100 years or the past 40 years. No one’s debating those facts! So, the only question that arises from a finding that says 97% of scientists agree that humans contribute to climate change is… why isn’t it 100%? What are those 3% thinking?

      That’s not what the debate is about. The debate entails some science and some non-science. Here are some scientific questions: How do we accurately measure global temperatures? How unprecedented are late 20th-century temperature increases? What do we make of the 17-year hiatus in temperature increases? Everyone acknowledges that the warming effect of CO2 is weak, so the question is, to what extent is that warming effect amplified by feedback effects? Is the earth on track for *runaway* temperature increases?

      Here are some non-scientific questions: What are the costs (droughts, stress to ecosystems, spread of disease, etc.) and benefits (increased plant resistance to drought, increased temperate zone for agriculture) of rising CO2 levels and temperatures? Assuming the costs exceed the benefits, how do we respond? Is re-engineering the industrial economy in order to reduce CO2 emissions really the best way to go, or should we spend our finite resources on adapting to change?

      There is no way that 97% of all scientists agree on all of those questions. That figure is a fraud.

      1. larryg Avatar

        re: ” Richard, let’s talk about that 97% figure. It’s meaningless. Let me spell that out for you — M-E-A-N-I-N-G-L-E-S-S. If you polled the scientific skeptics of climate change alarmism, even they would all agree that (1) humans are mainly responsible for rising CO2 levels, (2) CO2 contributes to warming temperatures, and (3) temperatures have, in fact, warmed over (pick your time period) the past 100 years or the past 40 years. No one’s debating those facts!”

        you’re wrong Jim – the skeptics are all over the map on what they do not believe.
        there is no central, consistent alternative theory that they all subscribe to.

        ” So, the only question that arises from a finding that says 97% of scientists agree that humans contribute to climate change is… why isn’t it 100%? What are those 3% thinking?”

        it isn’t 100% because that’s the way science works. there is never 100% agreement on anything. 100% of scientists do not believe the absolute link between smoking and lung cancer – because there are folks who smoke who don’t get cancer and people who don’t smoke who do get it but do those facts invalidate the high correlation that has gained a large consensus of support?

        “That’s not what the debate is about. The debate entails some science and some non-science. Here are some scientific questions: How do we accurately measure global temperatures? How unprecedented are late 20th-century temperature increases? What do we make of the 17-year hiatus in temperature increases? Everyone acknowledges that the warming effect of CO2 is weak, so the question is, to what extent is that warming effect amplified by feedback effects? Is the earth on track for *runaway* temperature increases?”

        no, you’re wrong again. Since when have you and others cared about how things like DNA or ocean currents or solar flares are “measured” much less accused scientists of doing it wrong? Why do you become a “skeptic” only on the science that you disagree with and not all of it if all of it has the same issues with differences, flaws in measurement?

        “Here are some non-scientific questions: What are the costs (droughts, stress to ecosystems, spread of disease, etc.) and benefits (increased plant resistance to drought, increased temperate zone for agriculture) of rising CO2 levels and temperatures? Assuming the costs exceed the benefits, how do we respond? Is re-engineering the industrial economy in order to reduce CO2 emissions really the best way to go, or should we spend our finite resources on adapting to change?”

        why are you willing to literally bet the farm – that you’re not wrong? If we took your approach with the Ozone Holes what would have happened?

        “There is no way that 97% of all scientists agree on all of those questions. That figure is a fraud.”

        It’s a consensus – not absolute agreement. they do not all agree on all parts but they agree with the larger conclusion…

        this is the way that science works for EVERYTHING – whether it’s ozone holes, or predicting the path of a hurricane or predicting the temperatures for tomorrow.

        Do you have any idea at all what the proper dosage is for a medicine you take? Do you question how that dosage was arrived at? how do you know ? how would you know? Do you disbelieve the scientists who developed a drug and specified a dosage? If 97% of meteorologists say it will be 72 degrees tomorrow – do you think because it’s not 100% that it’s “bogus”?

      2. Richard Avatar

        Jim – and you miss my point. It doesn’t matter what the science says to most of the deniers – their belief and political strategies make science irrelevant, except that they use the outlier scientists so they don’t look ridiculous. Religious, business, political – they’re all beliefs that have no basis other than a selfish desire to pollute now and to make money off of it.
        Use of scientists is part of a larger strategy. It’s the same tactics that the cigarette companies used when the surgeon general came out against tobacco – deny, use anecdotes (my granddad smoked a pack a day and lived to 99), fund phony studies (the Tobacco Institute), buy politicians, even testify to Congress that tobacco wasn’t harmful.

        We need a carbon tax, carbon limits, and carbon trading – that will force those who pollute (basically all of us) to reduce our share of the pollution, and will result in innovations to keep carbon dioxide out of OUR atmosphere.

        I really don’t think you’re serious about addressing this issue. Just another political issue to argue and be clever about. If you can’t win on the science (and you’ve admitted that I think) you argue about the means and whether CO2 is really all that bad anyway? Talk about unexpected consequences – just let the CO2 accumulate – we might like it!

        Dithering away. Fiddling while the planet burns. Is this the conservative response to a looming disaster?

  6. larryg Avatar

    Take something like El Nino –

    ” El Niño is defined by prolonged warming in the Pacific Ocean sea surface temperatures when compared with the average value. The accepted definition is a warming of at least 0.5 °C (0.9 °F) averaged over the east-central tropical Pacific Ocean. Typically, this anomaly happens at irregular intervals of two to seven years, and lasts nine months to two years.[5] The average period length is five years. When this warming occurs for only seven to nine months, it is classified as El Niño “conditions”; when it occurs for more than that period, it is classified as El Niño “episodes””

    Now – do you think it matters if a high percentage of scientists more or less agree on the phenomena even if they don’t agree 100% on it?

    Do you think it’s possible for different measurements to be taken by different people with different results?

    does that invalidate the theory of El Nino?

    do you think when scientists predict inland impacts from El Ninos that if their predictions are not 100% – that the whole idea of El Nino is bogus?

    this is what you are saying Jim…

    you’re expecting something that science can never deliver but its downright foolish to invalidate it totally because it cannot deliver 100% certainty.

    It’s like you expecting a car going 50 miles per hour to produce the same exact results every-time a new car is crashed into that wall and when the results are not identical it “proves” the science of predicting probable damage at 50 mph is “bogus” and that because 3% of the investigators disagree with the 97%, it “proves” that the 97% number is “irrelevant”.

  7. larryg Avatar

    Jim is worried that “measurements” are subject to error… and I find it ironic that the “sugar” idea would go absolutely no where if there was no such thing as govt regulation that REQUIRES Nutrition Labels. where would these folks be if there were no nutrition labels?

    but it gets worse:

    ” When Nutrition Labels Lie”

    ” Unfortunately, Nutrition Facts labels are not always factual. For starters, the law allows a pretty lax margin of error—up to 20 percent—for the stated value versus actual value of nutrients. In reality, that means a 100-calorie pack could, theoretically, contain up to 120 calories and still not be violating the law. The same margin of error goes for other nutrients as well, which doesn’t bode well for diabetic carb counters, folks with high blood pressure who are watching sodium intake, or moms looking to boost the iron content of their babies’ diets. The FDA has never established a systematic, random label-auditing process, and compliance with the law is expected to be self-enforced by food manufacturers.”

    http://health.usnews.com/health-news/blogs/eat-run/2012/08/21/when-nutrition-labels-lie

    so the sugar folks have their theory – which goes nowhere without govt-imposed nutrition labels – that .. “lie”.

    yet no worries from the sugar folks about .. “measurements”…. from “bogus science”.

    it’s almost as if they rely completely on some science so they can accuse other science they don’t trust of being bogus.

    what if – we had no nutrition labels at all and we ended up like the world was before there was a Food and Drug agency and whatever was in the container was really unknown other than what a label might claim?

    this is the world that the “skeptics” apparently want because science as well as the govt , is not to be trusted…

  8. I am surprised that there is any doubt that excessive consumption of sugar causes heart disease. It certainly contributes to Type 2 diabetes. And that little charmer of a disease causes all kinds of bodily havoc.

    A Burger King triple Whopper big meal has 2,100 calories. Hell, a chicken ranch salad at Taco Bell has 960 calories. That’s hard to do. A hamburger patty has about 250 calories, a piece of American cheese has about 100 calories, a hamburger bun has about 120 calories. That makes a triple cheeseburger a 970 calorie belly buster. How does Burger King manage to get to 2,100 calories? Sugary soda, sauces, sugar added to the buns, fries, etc.

    Most people couldn’t make a 2,100 calorie meal from ingredients found in their refrigerators. But sugar is addictive, especially when it starts the Type 2 diabetes cycle of rising and falling blood sugar. So, the restaurants pile it into their food.

    One government regulation I favor is the requirement for restaurants to put nutritional labeling on their menus. That’s required in New York. I used to order the cajun rib eye at Morton’s. Then I realized that the double cut pork chop had about half the calories of the rib eye (600 vs 1,300). The choice became pretty easy.

    As an aside, I am 55 years old and can still run 10 miles in under 90 minutes. Did it last week. I don’t have to be all that careful in what I eat. But some of those dishes! A 960 calorie salad?

    As far as climate change – what are the options? Liberals complain that conservatives don’t have a viable plan for health care. The liberals don’t seem to have a viable plan for controlling climate change. Stop making electricity by burning coal? That’s it?

    Maybe we can kill two birds with one stone -http://timeforchange.org/eat-less-meat-co2-emission-of-food

    “The production of 1 kg beef causes about 13.3 kg of CO2. The same quantity of CO2 is released when you burn about 6 liters of petrol!”

    Eat more strawberries and less butter – save the world.

    1. larryg Avatar

      ya’ll need to bone up a little on Type 2 Diabetes. it’s more than sugar…

      ” Diabetes mellitus type 2 (formerly noninsulin-dependent diabetes mellitus (NIDDM) or adult-onset diabetes) is a metabolic disorder that is characterized by hyperglycemia (high blood sugar) in the context of insulin resistance and relative lack of insulin”

      high blood sugar does not come from eating too much sugar… read up on it.

      the body converts carbohydrates into sugar –

      type 2 diabetes is when your pancreas fails to maintain proper blood sugar levels and it can and does happen with a sugar-free diet and carbohydrates.

      re: liberals and climate –

      conservation, energy efficiency, more solar, wind, nat gas and nukes.

      less coal burning also = less mercury deposition, less acid rain, thousands of less lung-related deaths.

      irony – Conservation is a derivative of Conserve and Conservative.

      it’s really not about what to do about it – you can’t even get there when people “deny” that it could be a problem to begin with.

      1. “Type 2 diabetes results from a combination of genetic and environmental factors. Although there is a strong genetic predisposition, the risk is greatly increased when associated with lifestyle factors such as high blood pressure, overweight or obesity, insufficient physical activity, poor diet and the classic ‘apple shape’ body where extra weight is carried around the waist.”

        overweight or obesity, poor diet …

        You don’t think that sugary, high calorie diets add to the risk factors for Type 2 diabetes? What’s the first thing a doctor says to a person who just got diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes? “Gotta change your diet.”

        As for climate change – let’s look at one big contributor – air travel.

        http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/sunday-review/the-biggest-carbon-sin-air-travel.html?_r=0

        “LAST fall, when Democrats and Republicans seemed unable to agree on anything, one bill glided through Congress with broad bipartisan support and won a quick signature from President Obama: the European Union Emissions Trading Scheme Prohibition Act of 2011. This odd law essentially forbids United States airlines from participating in the European Union Emissions Trading System, Europe’s somewhat lonely attempt to rein in planet-warming emissions. Under that eight-year-old program, European power plants and manufacturers pay fees if they produce excess carbon emissions. The aviation sector was slated to start paying this year, too, for emissions generated by flights into or out of European Union airports.”

        Bipartisan support.
        Quick signature by Obama.

        Our government is too corrupt to be trusted with any climate change regulation. Do you really think Obama will force the airlines to pay for their carbon emissions? What will all those nice, Democratic unionized employees say when employment in air travel tanks?

        Don’t fool yourself LarryG – the so-called liberals in American politics have no inclination to do anything about climate change. George Clooney isn’t giving up his private jet, Obama will keep on flying Marine One to Andrews Air Force Base to play golf. Airlines won’t see their profits cut. Nope. You and I may be forced to pay more for electricity but our political elite and their well heeled friends won’t be asked to participate.

        1. larryg Avatar

          overweight or obesity, poor diet …

          You don’t think that sugary, high calorie diets add to the risk factors for Type 2 diabetes? What’s the first thing a doctor says to a person who just got diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes? “Gotta change your diet.” ”

          I’m telling you – from personal experience – that you can have a low sugar diet and still get Type 2 diabetes and you can religiously not eat sugary products and still have chronic high blood sugar levels -including disastrous levels just from eating carbs.

          “As for climate change – let’s look at one big contributor – air travel.

          http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/27/sunday-review/the-biggest-carbon-sin-air-travel.html?_r=0

          the sources don’t really matter if folks deny that there is a problem at all.

          re: “LAST fall, when Democrats and Republicans seemed unable to agree on….
          ….
          Bipartisan support.
          Quick signature by Obama.

          Our government is too corrupt to be trusted with any climate change regulation. Do you really think Obama will force the airlines to pay for their carbon emissions? What will all those nice, Democratic unionized employees say when employment in air travel tanks?”

          Obama can do nothing really substantial without agreement from Congress …

          “Don’t fool yourself LarryG – the so-called liberals in American politics have no inclination to do anything about climate change. George Clooney isn’t giving up his private jet, Obama will keep on flying Marine One to Andrews Air Force Base to play golf. Airlines won’t see their profits cut. Nope. You and I may be forced to pay more for electricity but our political elite and their well heeled friends won’t be asked to participate.”

          it’s a political hot potato. Anything that is said to have such dramatic and far reaching impacts on the way we currently live – is not going to go forward smoothly.

          But we have done this before. We banned DDT. We got dramatically reduced CFCs. We got rid of dioxin and reduced acid rain.

          but this was before the current anti-science, anti-govt movement… now ongoing….

          we’ve descended into a wacko-bird world… where what one wishes to “believe” trumps things they don”t want to accept as realities.

          They’ll watch NOAA predicting the path of a hurricane – and readily accept the fact that exact precision is not proffered nor expected but that the hurricane is indeed real and well capable of catastrophic damage – but switch “flawed” hurricane models to climate change models and all bets are off. We can have “flawed” hurricane l (or Ozone hole) “measurements” but will tolerate none of that with climate change. It has to be dead on 100% accurate and agreed to by 100% of scientists or it is “bogus”.

          1. “Obama can do nothing really substantial without agreement from Congress …”

            He could have vetoed the bill. He didn’t. He is a fraud. Perfectly happy to sock you and me with sky high electricity prices but unwilling to take on his benefactors in the airline industry.

            The Democrats in Congress were totally complicit in this.

            Your argument that it’s the conservative “climate change deniers” who are thwarting progress is observably wrong. In many ways the politicians who believe that climate change is hurting the world but still vote against bills that would force the airlines to pay carbon taxes are the worst of all. They are willfully selling out the planet in return for political contributions and the support of airline employees at the polls. Obama is one of those politicians.

          2. larryg Avatar

            re: ” Obama can do nothing really substantial without agreement from Congress …”

            He could have vetoed the bill. He didn’t. He is a fraud. Perfectly happy to sock you and me with sky high electricity prices but unwilling to take on his benefactors in the airline industry.”

            it’s called politics.

            “The Democrats in Congress were totally complicit in this.”

            agreed.

            “Your argument that it’s the conservative “climate change deniers” who are thwarting progress is observably wrong. In many ways the politicians who believe that climate change is hurting the world but still vote against bills that would force the airlines to pay carbon taxes are the worst of all. They are willfully selling out the planet in return for political contributions and the support of airline employees at the polls. Obama is one of those politicians”

            in ANY issue like this – there are specific positions that are and are not feasible – politically. It’s a political calculation based in large part on what the folks in their districts think.

            but just for giggles and grins – what percent of global warming is due to airplanes verses coal plants? 1% or less?

            the art of politics as Ronald Reagan and Clinton so much realized is that you take the half-loaf and move on to the next… instead of demanding the full loaf and going down to defeat – with little hope of then getting the half loaf…

            Obama’s biggest failing is his inability, his refusal to try to swallow things he could not accept.. and he’s up against an opposition party that views compromise of any kind as a surrender of their principles.

            bottom line – you want immigration reform? It never gets to Obama… so he never has to agonize over swallowing something he disagrees with.

            The GOP believes that if they win the Senate they can force him to sign bills he disagrees with or impeach him.

            there is no governance here.

            I don’t know what in the world the GOP is going to do after Obama is gone because not even another Ronald Reagan will suit their “take no prisoners” approach.

            the GOP does not want to govern – they want to rule – absolutely. there are no compromise positions on things like immigration or health care or most issues where the country is divided. They represent one side and they won’t accept middle ground approaches that satisfy a majority of Americans.

  9. LarryG:

    I went to see whether our resident liberal Senators (Kaine and Warner) voted to ban US airlines from paying a carbon tax. Guess what? Looks like the brave heroes in the Congress suspended the rules and used a voice vote.

    http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d112:SN01956:@@@S

    1. larryg Avatar

      DJ – in the current political atmosphere where each sides essentially invites the other to fall on their proverbial political swords – neither are going to “lead” because they know if they try – the other side will cut them off at the knees so they play safe.

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