The Devolution Debate — Finally, People Are Asking the Right Questions

Should local governments take on more responsibility for building and maintaining secondary roads? That’s the debate now emerging from the GOP transportation plan — and it’s precisely the debate we should be having, although it would be helpful to re-frame the controversy in more constructive terms than the blame mongering we hear now.

Key Northern Virginia leaders don’t like the GOP plan. Reports the Washington Times:

“Northern Virginia is getting [shortchanged] right now,” said Prince William Board of County Supervisors Chairman Corey A. Stewart, a Republican. “It produces 40 percent of revenue and receives only 17 percent of highway construction funds. We need the state to step up and take care of its responsibility.”

Fairfax County Board of Supervisors Chairman Gerald E. Connolly, a Democrat, agreed. “Right now, this bill is not workable. It’s a wholesale transfer of responsibility from the state to the localities. That is how they get around not raising taxes.”

Stewart and Connolly raise legitimate issues: If the state transfers responsibility for building and maintaining secondary roads, it also should transfer sufficient resources to do the job.

But let’s step back and ask the bigger question: Which level of government is the most appropriate for administering the construction and maintenance of local roads — local government or state government? The answer is self-evident: Local government should take responsibility for local roads. That’s the way it works in the vast majority of states, that’s the way it works with Virginia cities, and that’s the way it works in two Virginia counties: Arlington and Henrico.

It’s called aligning transportation and land use planning. The reason that urbanizing counties should take over local roads is that they are responsible already for land use decisions, zoning codes and subdivision approvals, all of which affect the location and intensity of traffic. Local officials also have a better feel for their county’s priorities than VDOT officials in a district office somewhere.

The current separate of transportation and land use is dysfunctional. Local boards of supervisors approve “pod” subdivisions that funnel traffic onto collector roads — and expect VDOT to address the resulting congestion. They approve big-lot subdivisions that require more lane-miles of roadway to serve — and expect VDOT to pick up the tab for maintenance. They mandate low density development that makes bus service uneconomical. They forbid the development of mixed-used, pedestrian-friendly communities that reduce the length and frequency of car trips. They limit development around rail stations that could take rush-hour automobiles off the road. And then they criticize “the state” for failing to pony up the funds to rescue them from the consequences of their decisions. Such irresponsibility simply has to end.

Once the fundamental decision has been made to align transportation and land use at the level of local government, a number of secondary decisions need to be made. What state resources should be transferred to local governments in compensation for taking over the job? If extra funds are needed, what revenue sources should be tapped?

Those questions are not being asked yet. Right now, the debate has taken an unproductive tone. (It’s hard to tell whether the truculence of local government officials is to blame, or where drama-seeking reporters are cherry picking the most belligerent quotes and overlooking the more thoughtful statements.) From what I’ve read, the main concern of local government officials is not seeking the optimal governance structure but avoiding getting blamed for raising taxes to fund the road improvements they want. It’s so much easier blaming the state.

Despite the deficiencies of the debate so far, it represents a departure from the Mainstream Media meta-narrative that defines the transportation debate as a purely state-level fiscal matter. Finally, the dysfunctional nature of Virginia’s governance system is coming to light.


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53 responses to “The Devolution Debate — Finally, People Are Asking the Right Questions”

  1. Jim Patrick Avatar
    Jim Patrick

    Jim – From the local side, there will be great reluctance. It’s justified and I am โ€”although more open to ‘local tax for local roads’ than mostโ€” among those skeptics.

    THE problem is the state’s horrible record on local revenues.

    If the proposal was for local (secondary road) taxes that were retained by the locality, then many of the objections would vanish. That is not what is proposed.

    What IS proposed are local taxes, sent to Richmond, then “returned” to the locality. The snark quotes are realistic; Richmond has a long and reliable record on skimming, floating, restricting, and often simply expropriating local revenues.

  2. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Wait just a minute!

    We all need to take another step back, or perhaps two.

    What is “local?” The 20,000 +/- in the “city” of Falls Church or the “city” of Fairfax or the 1,000,000 plus in Fairfax County?

    Should the half million +/- in Prince William have the same say as the quarter million in Loudoun? Perhaps we should admit tht the real answer is each of the 14 +/- Beta Communities that make up the Virginia portion of the National Capital Subresgion?

    But first citizens have to sort out the functional levels of roadways and railways.

    “Primary,” “Secondary,” etc. is from the “get Virginia out of the mud” era of the 30s.

    Once there is a classification system based on capacity and function for both roadways and railways, then we can address the level of governance that should have primary (but not exclusive) responsiblity.

    Any sane person would say the most important level of governance is the New Urban Region scale. In both of the largest New Urban Regions that impact the Commonwealth, that means multiple states.

    In the National Capital Subregion it is four states and the federal District.

    Even if citizens only consider the Virginia portion of the National Capital Subregion, they have to start with an elected body to make decisions on the multi-municipal level of impact transport facilities.

    (James A. Bowden and I agree on three things. One of them is no unelected “regional” governing bodies for municipal governance pratitioners to hide behind.)

    Half measures and half steps will not move us toward a solution to the Mobility and Access Crisis.

    Or any of the other maladies resulting from dysfunctional human settlement patterns and dysfunctional infrastructure to support them.

    EMR

  3. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    What was I thinking?

    First we need Commonwealth-wide and New Urban Region-wide concensus on the pattern and density of land use for which we are willing to pay for mobility and access.

    Then we need to take the steps in the prior post.

    Just to sharpen the point:

    “LOCAL” is a Core Confusing Word when it comes to human settlement pattern discussion.

    EMR

  4. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    Give us an example of a local government that overtly limited developmet around a rail station.

  5. Reid Greenmun Avatar
    Reid Greenmun

    IRT:

    “Any sane person would say the most important level of governance is the New Urban Region scale.”

    Perhaps we could stop with the attacks on those that may not agree with you EMR, but that does not mean they are not “sane” because they have a different appreciation for “human settlement patterns” and the best and/or proper form of government that should govern political subdivisions within our Commonwealth?

    Good.

    Moving on to respectfully disagree with you assertion above.

    No, the “new urban regional scale” is not the most important level of governance.

    The most important level of governance is, in my opinion, the intelligent control of the GLOBAL governance.

    We can build all the houses of cards we desire in our own little corner of the planet, but the Global forces from without can quickly destroy anything we do “regionally” – on a “local” scale.

    All the pie-in-the-sky planning and “new urbanism” dreams amount to nothing if we cannot control the GLOBAL markets, our borders, and the slow moving wave of “one World Government” that is heading towards our nation’s shores – and into our heartland.

    Our nation-state is founded as a city on a hill, a beacon of FREEDOM.

    EMR, you worry me when you continue to throw around your view that we must surrender our “RIGHTS” because you feel they are no longer “sustainable” and you feel that RIGHTS need to be “balanced”.

    WARNING!!! WARNING!!!

    EMR, RIGHTS” are rights. They are ours – and no government can claim any higher authority to take our RIGHTS away from us.

    EMR, you look at the future and you see too many people and not enough resources. land, and energy – let alone JOBS, to “sustain” our nation’s high standard of living/Quality of Life.

    My friend, your thinking is limited to the boundaries of this small planet.

    The future may hold travel and colonization of our Solar system – or beyond.

    We humans are a very innovative lot.

    Have faith – have hope for a bright future.

    Think outside the box.

    I mentioned flying cars – just as “new urbanism” encourages us all to “build UP, not OUT” – so too should we begin to look to better use of the skies, not ROADS, as a place in which we can travel.

    Just as explorers of old left their “known world” (land mass) in search of “New Worlds” – we too will take to the heavens and seek out new worlds.

    But we should hold onto our RIGHTS – we need to be ever vigilant to PROTECT OUR RIGHTS.

    Our RIGHTS are far too precious to surrender (or โ€œbalanceโ€) due to some short term desire for better urban planning and some desire for more efficient control over โ€œhuman settlement patternsโ€.

    Preventing citizens from having the freedom to live where they wish, with whomever they wish is not a path that leads to supporting freedom; it is a path that seeks to โ€œmanage freedomโ€.

    No thanks.

    Patrick Henry once said โ€œGive me Liberty โ€“ or give me deathโ€.

    He espouses a valid point โ€“ because, what is life without Liberty?

    EMR, you may not desire to discuss โ€œFascismโ€, โ€œCommunismโ€, or โ€œSocialismโ€; but those forms of governance may well be unintended consequences of some of your โ€œvisionโ€ for more government and โ€œprivate sectorโ€ (in so-called public-private partnerships) controls over where people are free to live, work, play, or how they will be allowed to move around โ€“ when, and how much government will charge them for the โ€œprivilegeโ€ of the โ€œfreedom of movementโ€.

    At the end of the day our Commonwealth has defined political subdivisions. We, The People vote for our representatives. What I see emerging from the fog of your โ€œvisionโ€ are layers upon layers of โ€œpolitical subdivisionsโ€ โ€“ all defined along some complex and dynamic utopian society with strict adherence to some doctrine of โ€œNew urban Regionalismโ€ โ€“ and some philosophy (or emerging religion) of well-controlled โ€œHuman Settlement Patternsโ€.

    The key to your โ€œvisionโ€ seems to be the use of redirecting tax funds to enforce โ€œbehavior modificationโ€ that โ€œfitsโ€™ your โ€œvisionโ€ for how you feel the future should be developed. Albeit that you have good intentions โ€“ and admirable goals, but never the less, you are clear that you donโ€™t like how people chose to live, work, and play โ€“ NOW โ€“ and you want to manipulate others into new behaviors by means of redirecting the peopleโ€™s tax funds.

    EMR, you are proposing an unworkable fantasy if you think you will actually gain any buying to the concept of redrawing all of the political subdivision โ€œlinesโ€ in our Commonwealth to suit your thesis on better โ€œhuman settlement patternsโ€. The reality is that unless you effectively deal with the existing POLTICAL REALITIES of the polit5ical subdivisions we now have โ€“ your โ€œvisionโ€ will simply be an interesting topic of discussion.

  6. Roll Tide Avatar
    Roll Tide

    Mr. Bacon, As I have said before, no where in no bill was the state revenue to local governments part of the equation. I am from Missouri, so I say to you and others “Show Me!” if I am wrong. Yes, local governments were and are free to raise local taxes to take over the road responsibility in the transportation reform package.

    Second, the equation needs to consider that the road responsibility is divided into two parts – construction and maintenance. Right now state maintenance comes off the top; it is the first thing funded. If there is not enough money in the maintenance budget, then the money comes from the construction budget. So, are you talking about construction going to the counties or maintenance or both?

    At the present time, VDOT spends between $9,500 and $15,000 per lane mile to maintain local roads in cities and large towns and most municipalities spend more by putting in their own tax money in addition. [Henrico and Arlington each get a different amount specified in law.] VDOT spends about $4,000 per lane mile to maintain secondary [local] roads in counties.

    So, if the General Assembly wants to open a dialog with counties to take over the maintenance of local roads, then they need to agree to give up some of the revenue the state collects for that purpose. That has not happened.

    Construction is a different topic.

    Also, you must acknowledge that even if the state gives maintenance and construction to counties with the money, the state will also have to retain some control or strings. That is why the Byrd Act was needed and even the most devolutional among your group would agree that you do not want to return to the time when one road would end at the county line. So, how much coordination across boundaries is required? Would every county be permitted to adopt its own local road standards? Etc. As you realize, this issue is not simple and will take many years of problem solving.

  7. notvirgilgoode Avatar
    notvirgilgoode

    Notvirgilgoode is back and ready to comment on Bacon’s rebellion. Check out my resurrected blog related to the upcoming elections http://virginiapoliticalwire.blogspot.com

  8. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “…even the most devolutional among your group would agree that you do not want to return to the time when one road would end at the county line.”

    roads that “connect” need to have VDOT involved.

    Local collectors, urban and rural need to be the responsibility of the localities especially when those local governments are making land-use decisions that directly impact the local transportation network. This should not be a dialogue or conversation in my mind.

    The localities already have some tools, proffers, CDAs and TIFs and if the GA gives them impact fees and the ability to specify if a subdivision road is truly a public road or not… we’re on our way.

    JLARC did identify a serious issue in that VDOT’s current method of classifying roads is not functional but rather arbitrary.

    We have secondary roads whose traffic counts exceed primary roads and yet the classification does not reflect that – and the problem is that primary roads and secondary roads have different pots of money.

    In my own county of Spotsylvania, millions of dollars being spent on a primary designated road that has 1/4 the traffic of several secondary collectors – that the county ended up having to fund from referenda while VDOT is fat and happy with the construction of their primary road – which, by the way, doubled in price because of the length of time it took to get enough funds to build it.

    don’t get me started….

    Before we ever get to devolution… we have basic and fundamental reforms that need to occur and I would posit that one of the reasons that counties are circumspect about taking on responsibilities is that they simply do not understand the potential “gotchas” nor do they trust that they won’t be sold a bill of goods….

    So.. I’d be thrilled just to see some of the basic JLARC recommendations implemented before we ever get to the bigger stuff.

  9. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    In yesterdays Wall Street Journal Paul Cahdwick writes about how traffic congestion in San Francisco drove him to move to Santa Fe.

    He says that when downtown gets congeted with traffic, civility disappears. He notes that the transformation then extends to business, social, and business interactions. So much for vibrant urban centers.

    He also correctly notes that it isn’t just a mattter of commuters trying to get to the urban centers. He says the problem is a result of the propensity of governemt to try to solve the problem only with highway construction, avoiding the more difficult problem of how to “encourage the location of affordable and desirable housing near industry and industry near housing.” (Emphasis mine.)

    His suggestion is that we suspend trying to build freeway construction in already congested areas, increase fuel taxes, and impose congestion charges.

    Here is the kicker.

    Rather than the usual suugestion that we spend the money on mass transit, he suggests that we “use the money thereby saved and derived for incentives to encourtage private sector development of affordable housing close to jobs but also to encourage responsible industry location in proximity to existing residential enclaves, along with modifications of zoning restrictions that presently prevent this.”

    Well, imagine that. I have at least one other kindred soul in the world, and I am not alone in my thinking. Where have you heard a similar argument recently?

    If we really want to devolve the problem, then let’s devolve several hundreed thousand people from trying to, or having to, go to the same high-priced, high-taxed places every day.

  10. Roll Tide Avatar
    Roll Tide

    Mr. Gross,

    I agree with some of what you say.

    “The localities already have some tools, proffers, CDAs and TIFs and if the GA gives them impact fees and the ability to specify if a subdivision road is truly a public road or not… we’re on our way.”

    Proffers – are under attack because they have gotten so expensive and are driving up the cost of housing, especially work force housing. Watch for the home builders to make a big push in the next few years to have them eliminated or restricted.

    CDAs – can only be imposed at the request of the property owner who is willing to pay higher taxes. Depending on the infrastructure costs involved, very difficult to work on residential development in some areas. See the bankrupcy of the CDA outside of Farmville.

    TIFs – Virginia’s law needs a serious rewrite, because bond rating agencies rate TIF bonds below full faith and credit debt of localities so higher interest rate must be paid. Only two TIFs that I know of even though law on books for over a decade; both in Virginia Beach.

    Impact fees – the extremely very limited ones granted in the transportation bill got through because the bill did not go through the House Committee on Counties, Cities and Towns. Homebuilders oppose impact fees of any sorts and will continue to do so.

    Localities have authority to specify if a subdivision road is a public road right now. Private road subdivisons are built all the time, but mail and school buses do not go down them and emergency vehicles have problems with them. The private roads are also a component of the New Urbanism or TND that Mr. Bacon and others speak. All a developer has to do is to tell the locality that he does not wish to build the roads to state standards and are his. In some localities, it may take a fight, but it can and does happen now.

    “JLARC did identify a serious issue in that VDOT’s current method of classifying roads is not functional but rather arbitrary.”

    The transportation bill requires that to occur. It will have serious financial implications in many areas, but the magnitude is not known, only guessed. It may result in NoVa getting more money from the state.

  11. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    “…the magnitude is not known, only guessed.”

    Exactly.

    How can we make rational decisions without better metrics?

  12. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    There have been a lot of recent posts (mainly from Mr. Patrick questioning whether there were NOVA to ROVA subsidies – especially for transportation. Now comes this …

    Northern Virginia is getting [shortchanged] right now,” said Prince William Board of County Supervisors Chairman Corey A. Stewart, a Republican. “It produces 40 percent of revenue and receives only 17 percent of highway construction funds.

    Hmmm ….. Produces 40 % of the revenue and gets only 17 % of highway construction funds.

    That certainly sounds like a subsidy.

    Maybe Mr. Patrick will admit that he is wrong.

    However, I must agree with Mr. Patrick’s disdain for the state taking local money just so that money can be handed back to the localities. Historically, this “trip through Richmond” has resukted in a lot of shrinkage.

    Give control of the roads to the municipalities. Elimimnate the state taxes being used fir transportation. Let the municipalities raise the money and let the municipalities spend the money. No more subsidies, no more need for the state.

  13. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Metrics. Hah. The last refuge of a foot dragger.

    Govt that wouldn’t allow development around a rail station? Fairfax County. Vienna Metro.

  14. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    As long as Virginia agrees to pick up the tab for local roads – no matter how wasteful the land-use decisions are – we are going to have a broke system.

    Virtually ever other state in the Union requires localities to tend to their own affairs when it comes to growth and development infrastructure.

    It makes perfect sense for VDOT to maintain infrastructure that connects the state and the regions in the state – Primary roads (properly classified) and Interstates.

    By insisting that VDOT pick up the tab for counties who don’t even think about the consequences of their land-use decisions – we are crippling VDOT.

    We are at a crossroads.

    There is no more money.

    Maintenance costs eat up most of the budget.

    Where will new money come from?

    A better question: Where SHOULD new money come from?

    For every school teacher in Farmville that drives 10 miles to work there are 100 people in NoVa that drive at least 10 miles to work and some even 100 miles to work.

    You can tax the hell out of that teacher in Farmville and it would be akin to getting blood from a stone.

    Fairfax county, Prince William, Loudoun, etc, et al OWN their road problems.

    The fact that they’ve already had referenda does not exempt them from the gap that remains nor the responsibility for future needs.

    Telling that deputy in Wise County or that single mom who works at Walmart in Harrisonburg that we are going to raise their taxes so that Fairfax can keep on truckin… with their land-use decisions and the argument that the “state” has responsibilities with regard to Fairfax roads is tantamount to a modern-day plantation mindset in my view.

    If folks in NoVa think that too many transportation dollars are being diverted.. then tackle that problem but the fundamental point of who should be responsible for their roads is the root cause of the problem statewide in my view.

    If Fairfax convinces everyone that the state should “own” their road problem – then why should Harrisonburg, Roanoke, Charlottesville, etc, etc et al think any differently?

    This is really insane.

  15. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    RESPONSE TO REID GREENMUN RE LEVELS OF GOVERNANCE

    You are correct: โ€œAny sane person would say the most important level of governance is the New Urban Region scaleโ€ is incorrect and overstated.

    The sentence should read: โ€œAny sane person with an understanding of the role of transport in human settlement patterns would say the most important level of governance is the New Urban Region scale.โ€

    At the present time a person can be legally โ€œsaneโ€ with limited or no understanding of human settlement patterns or the forces impacting mobility and access. This fact limits the rights of citizens, individually and collectively.

    You seem to disagree with our view of the importance of the New Urban Region scale. It is your right and privilege to disagree.

    We are happy to agree that far more rational and effective governance is needed at the nation-state / subcontinental, continental, multi-continental and global scales.

    For those who are primarily concerned with individual โ€œrightsโ€ and a balance of rights and privileges with responsibilities of citizenship (as opposed to rational structure of governance to create Mobility and Access), the most important levels are those at the Dooryard / Cluster scale followed by the Neighborhood, Village and Community scales.

    Since the New Urban Region is the fundamental building block of contemporary civilization, rational governance structure starts there works in both directions and all levels are important.

    We believe that rights and privileges of individual are very important and to preserve them there must be a balance of rights with responsibilities. โ€œRightsโ€ are a hollow unless there is a supportive society in which to enjoy them. โ€œNew Urbanismโ€ has no more to do with this view than does โ€œInfantile Suburban Anarchyโ€ so it is best not to misuse words and phrases.

    As to where you get the impression that I disrespect rights, I am at a loss. Name we one place we have advocated limiting individual rights, especially to participate in any governance process.

    I respect your right to strongly held views on โ€œrightsโ€ but resent your suggestion that somehow I do not respect individual rights. I can only assume one or more of the reasons we list in our current column โ€œConservatism and Fundamental Changeโ€ under โ€œSo Why All the Fussโ€ is impacting your judgement on this topic.

    On one of your other points you may find our column of 15 November 2004 โ€œThe Skycar Mythโ€ of interest. Check the Bacons Rebellion archives.

    Our views of Intra-Solar as well as Intra- and Inter-Galactic travel and resources are addressed in The Shape of the Future and in the post on Voltage Hogs and Green Crusadersโ€ below.

    Having nothing further to say about you view of rights, we respectfully decline to respond to your other points.

    EMR

  16. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Larry:
    Telling that deputy in Wise County or that single mom who works at Walmart in Harrisonburg that we are going to raise their taxes so that Fairfax can keep on truckin… with their land-use decisions and the argument that the “state” has responsibilities with regard to Fairfax roads is tantamount to a modern-day plantation mindset in my view.”.

    A modern day plantation mindset?

    Hmmmmm…..

    But what about:

    “Northern Virginia is getting [shortchanged] right now,” said Prince William Board of County Supervisors Chairman Corey A. Stewart, a Republican. “It produces 40 percent of revenue and receives only 17 percent of highway construction funds. We need the state to step up and take care of its responsibility.”

    Produces 40% but received 17%?

    That’s a plantation mentality all right. But the people working the plantation are the poor, legal immigrants from Central America living in Northern Virginia and subsidizing the deputies and Wal Mart workers downstate.

    Raising their taxes is Chichester-speak for lowering their subsidy.

    Get off the dole. We can’t carry you any more. Even your own mother only carried you for 9 months.

    My, my:

  17. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    Vienna Metro is about to be the site of the new Metro West development, development the government approved over significant citien opposition. How is the government preventing metro oriented development in this case?

    Whether it is or it isn’t supporting sufficient development t the site is a matter of dispute precisely because we do not have indisputable metrics conscerning what the eventual results will be.

    One thing I am fairly certain of is that it will not result in lessened congestion.

  18. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    Larry is right, Urban Virginia is going to have to pay for their own roads, and they cannot expect to get blood out of a Farmville stone.

    But they also should not expect to pay for their own roads AND Farmville’s, therefore FArmville is going to have to squeeze some blood of their own.

    Virginia isn’t alone in this. Other states, the FAA, and my oen farm are all facing a crisis of maintenance vs investment plus still more maintenance. With the farm I can see the problem clearly: it isn’t making any more money and probably never will, yet costs keep rising.

    Virginia on the other hand is making a lot more money and simply has chosen not to spend it on roads for the last 20 years. Playing catch up is a lot more expensive than playing keep up, whether you think you can do it by building roads, building transit, or building a whole new settlement pattern.

    We can either paint over the potholes, or we can fill them with money.

  19. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “said Prince William Board of County Supervisors Chairman Corey A. Stewart, a Republican. “It produces 40 percent of revenue and receives only 17 percent of highway construction funds.”

    Let’s see some numbers and hopefully he is not mixing education allocations with highway allocations.

    Any way you cut it… the deputy and the Walmart lady are not going to give you anywhere near what you need.

    The best NoVa option is to NOT pay statewide tax increases but rather to collect their own money on their own projects .. WHILE they try to get the inequities out of the current allocations.

    Otherwise.. I think NoVa is using the inequities as basically an excuse for not addressing the fundamental issues.

    NoVa OWNS NoVa problems PRIMARILY.

    You MIGHT get the rest of the state to pay a little bit but the vast majority of the money is going to have to come from NoVa.

    Deal with that issue.. crack that nut…. then worry about collateral issues.

    Everytime someone says that the “state” needs to “help” NoVa with “their” problems – it’s doubspeak for talk rather than action in my view.

  20. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    bottom line: Everytime the state raises taxes statewide – NoVa loses that much more.

    You’ll never go back and get what others have already been given – get over it.

    What do you do from now on?

    You can essentially either support the budget – as is or oppose it or you can tell Kaine what it would take for NoVa to support it.

    Are you going to tell Kaine that you won’t support the regional taxes but you WILL support the statewide tax increases?

    Let me hear a concise position from someone…. right now.. I think we are “chattering”.. no?

  21. Jim Wamsley Avatar
    Jim Wamsley

    It is time to review. The issue has been clouded with โ€œfactsโ€ when it is not a fact based issue. For those who want facts, I again quote from our favorite sources, JLARC and APA. Read the reports to understand the significance of the sources.

    Issues Facing Primary Project Prioritization
    The Code of Virginia instructs the Board to plan on a statewide basis by assessing transportation needs and prioritizing projects. However, to distribute estimated highway revenues, the Code of Virginia also prescribes the allocation formula and the specific order in which Transportation must use the allocation. Due to these constraints, Transportation cannot prioritize Primary System projects on a statewide basis. The current allocation and the distribution formulas of funds within the Primary, Secondary, and Urban Systems became part of the Code of Virginia in 1985, and there has been no change to these formulas since. (Page 20)
    http://www.apa.state.va.us/data/download/reports/audit_local/VDOTfollowup04.pdf

    โ€ฆ[T]he current system has the following limitations:
    (1) funds are not allocated to a system of roads of statewide significance, (2) roads
    with different functional purposes have to compete for the same allocation of construction funds, and (3) funding decisions regarding roads are often not being made by the appropriate decision-makers. For example, Braddock Road in Fairfax County is functionally classified as an arterial road and carries more than 77,000 vehicles a day on
    some sections but is part of the secondary system. Conversely, Route 84 in Highland
    County is classified as a collector road and carries only 200 vehicles a day but is part of
    the primary system. (page 5)
    http://leg2.state.va.us/dls/h&sdocs.nsf/By+Year/RD62002/$file/rpt272.pdf

    The issue is one of โ€œPork.โ€ The legislature is bowing to those members who want to maintain a flow of โ€œPorkโ€ to their region at the expense of congestion in other parts of the state. Including a road with 200 vehicles a day in the primary system funding scheme is an example of โ€œpork.โ€ Correcting the โ€œporkโ€ problem is the first step of correcting the transportation funding problem. The current bill does not address the problem.

    Corey Steward, the Chairman of the Prince William Board of Supervisors, is leading the charge. If the Governor and the General Assembly wonโ€™t fix things, maybe the Federal Courts will.

    Until this plays out, please read the two reports that I have quoted. Then reread them whenever you think that Northern Virginiaโ€™s complaints about funding the rest of the state arenโ€™t justified. Read them again before you post about more funds from Northern Virginia.

  22. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    No kidding. MetroWest is finally coming to be. After a generation of delay by Fairfax, which is what you asked for. You want metrics? Go count the houses in Loudoun that had to be built because MetroWest wasn’t planned and approved in the late 1970s. Yeah, that’s what we need – counties that figure it out after everyone else has. How’s that for a metric.

  23. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    ‘… or fill them with money.’

    oh good lord. what blather.

  24. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    Maybe, but you won’t fill them without money.

  25. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    The best NoVa option is to NOT pay statewide tax increases but rather to collect their own money on their own projects

    AGREED

    .. WHILE they try to get the inequities out of the current allocations.

    MAYBE, BUT SUBOPTIMAL

    Otherwise.. I think NoVa is using the inequities as basically an excuse for not addressing the fundamental issues.

    THE FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE WITH REGARDS TO ROADS IN GENERAL OR WITH REGARDS TO CONGESTION? THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT ISSUES.

    NoVa OWNS NoVa problems PRIMARILY.

    AGREED

    You MIGHT get the rest of the state to pay a little bit but the vast majority of the money is going to have to come from NoVa.

    I DON’T THINK ANYONE IS ASKING THE REST OF THE STATE TO PAY ANYTHING FOR URBAN VIRGINIA. HOWEVER THAT IS THE PERCEPTION, AS WELL AS THE EFFECTIVE RESULT, IF ONLY THE ACTUAL RURAL USERS PAY FOR THE ROADS THEY USE. AT THE SAME TIME URBAN VIRGINA SHOULD PAY FOR SUBURBAN ROADS BECAUSE WITHOUT THEM THEY CANNOT GET THE WORKERS THEY NEED TO FILL ALL THOSE MISPLACED OFFICE BUILDINGS.

    ———————-

    So, Urban Viginia has a choice: they can pay more for their own roads and still pay substantial amounts to ROVA, or they can pay more through a statewide increase and still pay substantial amounts to ROVA.

    Eventually, the bill is going to come due. The pendulum will swing and swing with a vengeance. It is starting to look more and more like it is only a question of what kind of legacy the Pubs want to leave behind.

  26. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    the facts are out there, but no one with a dog in the fight really wants to know what they are for fear it won’t support their preconceived position.

    As you say, it is a matter of pork.

  27. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “Then reread them whenever you think that Northern Virginiaโ€™s complaints about funding the rest of the state arenโ€™t justified.”

    Folks … no matter what the inequities might be (but would be nice to have real data .. you know money numbers…)

    … some percent of ZERO is still ZERO and that is the situation with regard to transportation money in Va… without some action.

    The “compromise” budget isn’t promising anything other than:

    1. – statewide tax increases

    2. – regional funding approaches

    With #1 Fairfax and NoVa will CONTINUE to get the short end of the stick.

    with #2 – NoVa gets to keep all/most of it?

    If NoVa folks KNOW that the current funding allocation doesn’t favor them .. and there is no money anymore anyhow.. isn’t the issue … what to do with “new” money that might result from the budget “compromise”?

    I really think NoVa is missing the boat on this.

    Your best approach is self-destiny.

    Put congestion pricing on your roads and make dang sure that those monies DO STAY in NoVa and use those funds for whatever NoVa localities can agree on within their region.

    Some of it might actually be used for local roads… improvements to intersections, traffic signals, ramps, etc.

    but at the end of the day – make darn sure that the congestion pricing tolls stay in the region.

    .. and then OPPOSE statewide taxes for transportation….until and unless the state agrees to revisit the allocation formulas.

    This is an easier pole to climb that the “reform the whole enclilada (VDOT) pole in my mind.

    Once RoVA is left to their own devices with regard to funding.. they might well be interested in reforming VDOT also…

    FYI – I did a quick calculation for the Fredericksburg region.

    250K people. Let’s assume 250K cars, each logging 20K miles a year and getting 20mpg.

    This would yield about 95 million in gas tax revenue (at 38 cents a gallon)…

    Recently Fredericksburg was getting about 50million annually for construction.

    If Fairfax is 4 times as big… would Fairfax be getting about 200 million (if VDOT were not broke?)

  28. Reid Greenmun Avatar
    Reid Greenmun

    EMR, thank you for taking the time to respond to my post.

    I appreciate it.

    I apologize to you if you felt that I was stating that you oppose freedom and liberty.

    I was speaking of unitended consequences, not your personal goals or views.

    I do have two questions for you that I hope you will answer.

    (1) When you discuss your view that new urban regions should be the government political subdivisions of choice (as understood by all “sane” people, LOL), are you proposing that the Commonwealth abolish the current political subdivsions we have in favor of creating all new, elected regional political subdivisions, each drawn around exisitng new urban regions wihin Virignia?

    (2) If so, what is your plan for allocating the exisitng low density, non-urban landscape – do you propose to have the non-urban (rural/undeveloped) areas in our state allocated to exisiting high density urban regions and then have ROVA “regions” fall under the control (governance) of their nearest urgan core?

    Do you propose redrawing all of the boundaries of all political subdivisions within the Commonwealth?

  29. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    I see two approaches:

    1. Oppose all new taxes at any level and just live with the congestion. NOVA and HR will get whatever disproportionately small slice of the transportation pie they get and things will get somewhat worse. Over time deomgraphics will favor the urbanizing counties and they will be able to take control of the transportation budget and spend the money where it is needed – disproportionately in the urbanizing counties. This will require waiting until 2012 or so but (what the heck) we’ve waited this long and that’s just 5 more years. In fact, the worsening congestion will focus the voters in the urbanizing counties and put a spotlight on the amount of subsidy passing from the urbanizing counties to the rural counties. This will make it easier to replace the elected officials in the urbanizing counties as the voters get ever more frustrated with the all powerful, “we love the Dillon Rule” state government. Essentially, the extra congestion will make the response by the new majority all the more effective.

    2. Take over the roads at a county level and hope you can trust the state. Arlington and Henrico already run their own roads and that seems to be working better than the alternative for the other urbanizing counties. You’d have to hope that the counties have enough sense to do some common planning so that roads in one county don’t just end at the county line. Plenty of states manage to have effective road planning at the borders of the states. Kansas and Mo. around Kansas City for example, Washington, DC and Maryland is another example. The fact the Fairfax and Loudoun can’t agree on Rt 7 is a point of concern but maybe without the state to blame they’ll have to start acting like big boys and girls.

    Right now – I’d pick number 1.

    I just don’t trust the state legislature at all. Any new taxes will just be converted into a bigger hidden subsidy from the urbanizing areas to the rural areas. Adding confusing state vs. local taxes will only continue to hide the real “elephant on the table” – namely, there are two Virginias (one urbanizing and one rural). These two Virginias do not share a common vision of the future and they will not find a common vision any time soon. Historically, in my opinion, rural Virginia has used a convoluted and antiquated state legislature along with a lot of apathy from the voters in urban Virginia to effect a large and growing subsidy.

    There needs to be a break between the two Virginias and it would be better for everybody if there was one big break rather than a series of smaller breaks.

    The big break will be from a strong Dillon Rule style of government to a strong Home Rule style of government.

    The state government will become vastly less powerful and the municipal governments will become substantially more powerful.

    There will be some co-mingling of the tax bases but far less than exists today.

    The urbanizing counties will get richer and more congested although local government will do a far better job of addressing the problems than was ever the case with the Reichstag … umm … excuse me … I mean the state legislature.

    The rural counties will get relatively poorer. However, propelled by need, these same counties will adopt many of the pro – growth initiatives that have fueled job creation in the urbanizing counties.

    After 15 – 20 years of turmoil the state will be wealthier, happier and better than ever before. However, the years from 2012 – 2032 will not be particularly good ones for the Commonwealth of Virginia.

  30. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: option 1 plus HOT Lanes

    interesting read:

    http://www.timescommunity.com/site/tab5.cfm?newsid=18052911&BRD=2553&PAG=461&dept_id=507593&rfi=6

    “Once completed, the portion of the beltway between Springfield and Tysons Corner would have 12 lanes instead of eight.”

    and

    http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/ppta-I-95_I-395HOTLanes.asp

    “The anticipated schedule:

    Construction – northern and southern phases, 2008-2014

    It is anticipated that the northern phase will open in 2010″

  31. Ray Hyde Avatar
    Ray Hyde

    Anonymous:

    Has MetroWest really been in the works since the 1970’s? Metro dsidn’t open until 1976, and that was only a short section downtown. The Vienna station didn’t open until 1986 and it took until 1995 toabsorb all the townhomes built on the south side.

    The town of Vienna expects adverse impacts from the development, according to their comprehensive plan.

    I didn’t ask for anything, but there was significant opposition which was pretty much ignored by the county government, as far as I can tell. I don’t know what more the government can do besides override its own constituency.

    As for how long it takes, I’m not surprised. It took me almost two years to get a building permit for one existing lot.

    It isn’t clear to me that any homes HAD to be built in Loudoun due to the absence of MetroWest nor that had MetroWest been built earlier you wouldn’t still have the homes in Loudoun.

    What is clear is that they are going to add anothe 6600 parking spaces there, along with new access to the station because of pedestrian congestion. And of course those people at Metro West will also have cars. It isn’t the least bit clear to me that MetroWest will atually reduce traffic.

    I just hope that somebody is taking very close notes, so that when this costly experiment is completed that we really will have some valid metrics to use in predicting the results of future schemes.

  32. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Reid:

    Thank you for your response.

    Just a quick note on the way out…

    I will look again tomorrow but the answer to your first question is “yes.”

    We outline the process in “The Shape of Richmond’s Future” column 16 Feb 2004. Also in The Shape of the Future.

    The process and the structures are based on places we have designed and / or legislation that has been passed and in effect for two decades. It is not just theory.

    All changes would would follow a careful, fully participatory processes. With a chance to change if the Community your Village choose, evolved in an incompatable direction.

    There are powerful economic, social and physical reasons to evolve to achieve Balance but freedom of choice would always be there within a democratic process.

    I am sure you would love the structure for Sandbridge given your view of private rights.

    On the second question, New Urban Regions are Core centered but each has substantial Countryside within the Region but outside the Clear Edge around the Core.

    The nonurban territories that support more than one New Urban Region e.g. Del Mar Va (supports Hampton Roads, Washington-Batimore, Philidelphia and New York (check the produce shipment destinations and the hotel bookings), or the Northern Rocky Mountains would be in Urban Support Regions.

    Recall that over 85% of the population of the US of A lives and works in New Urban Regions (Almost that much works in MSAs), that about 5% of total lower 48’s area is actually urbanized, 10-15% area is in New Urban Regions and that 95% of the population is engaged in urban activities.

    Hope that helps.

    EMR

  33. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Reid:

    One other point:

    State borders are in need of change too. I am not sure if it is better to pursue the direction outlined by Joel G in โ€œNine Nations of North Americaโ€ โ€“ i.e. big provinces โ€“ or that of Braun and others of just rationalizing the existing states. (Braun ended up with 37 states as I recall.)

    Looking at all of North America with the largest 68 New Urban Regions in the US and the major ones in Canada and Mexico delineated would yield other alternatives.

    One thing for sure Fundamental Change means FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE.

    As we point out in โ€œConservatism and Fundamental Changeโ€ the world envisioned in the Northwest Ordinance is long gone and the sooner we start serious discussion of an alternative, be better we are off.

    You and others will not brook changes at Subregional, Regional, province / state, nation-state and continental scales until we do something the rationalize the municipal and sub-municipal scales.

    In this case, I agree with you.

    Change at the levels closest to citizens everyday interests is a matter of private rights and fair representation in any democracy.

    EMR

  34. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Anon Zeus Declares:

    Anon 10:31 is correct about Vienna – Fairfax – GMU Metro station area.

    It has been since the 70s.

    Fairfax County changed its comp plan to encourage station area development in the mid 70s as a condition for the terminal station of the Orange line being shifting from Tysons to the current site.

    Supervisor Scott had it changed back in the mid 80s to thwart a specific development.

    Even with Metro West (We recall Dr. Risse did a post on this Blog about this issue and rails about this in his lectures) the station area will be vastly underutilized. He is correct to rail, there are 45 acres of air rights over public land that are closer to the station platform.

    A better question would be: โ€œshow us one Metro station area that is planned to its potential and has a balance and/or is designed to create a balance within the entire Metro system!

    Anon Zeus

  35. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Jim Bacon:

    Sorry, but I just don’t understand this point:

    The current separate of transportation and land use is dysfunctional. Local boards of supervisors approve “pod” subdivisions that funnel traffic onto collector roads — and expect VDOT to address the resulting congestion. They approve big-lot subdivisions that require more lane-miles of roadway to serve — and expect VDOT to pick up the tab for maintenance.

    Humor me for a moment:

    1. There is an area of undeveloped woodland sitting somewhere in, let’s say, Fairfax County.

    2. Whoever owns the woods is paying some level of real estate tax based on the value of the woods.

    3. The owner of the woods sells the woods to a developer.

    4. The developer knocks down (too many of) the trees and builds houses.

    5. People buy the houses and move in.

    My questions:

    1. Doesn’t the developed land generate more in taxes than the undeveloped land?

    2. Don’t the people who move into these homes buy more things (and, thus, pay more sales tax) than the animals which formerly occupied the land (OK, sorry, that was smart alec)?

    3. Don’t the people who move into these house pay Virginia state income tax?

    So, finally ….

    1. Doesn’t VDOT get more money from all these increased taxes?

    2. Where does the new tax money go?

    3. Shouldn’t the extra taxes pay for the new roads and the maintenance of those roads?

    This always seems to be a “zero sum” game – new development puts additional stress on “poor ole VDOT”.

    Thank goodness private enterprise doesn’t think like this. Companies think that more / new customers = more / new revenue.

  36. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Thank you for your version of the history. It seems a little stretched to me since the first metro station wasn’t open until the 70’s. It is hard to imagine that any planning done then had very much resemblance to what actually happened: Even Metro West is still in the early stages.

    What I hear you saying is that it was planned for development before Metro existed and was later changed, around the time the Orange line actually arrived in Vienna.

    Supervisor Scott had the original planning changed to prevent a development his constituents didn’t want. By 1986, thay had seen the handwriting on the wall, and wanted no part of it. That “citizen participation” in opposition has continued until today and is in fact codified in the Vienna comprehensive plan.

    Despite citizen and official input opposed to Metro West the go-ahead was given: government has seen the error of its ways in listening to the people.

    I don’t see what your problem is with the plan now, except that it isn’t enough. One thing at a time. Lets see how Metro West works out, measure how much it reduces traffic, and then decide.

    How do you build on air rights? Don’t you first have to create the “land”? As I pointed out before, it is next to impossible, environmentally stupid, and enormously expensive to do this.

    I like the idea though. Since I am not allowed to build on my own land that is already sitting there with the development rights at hand, maybe I can use my air rights instead. I’ll just truck in 45 acres of concrete that was mined from some other land someplace else and put it up on stilts so it won’t disturb what is under it and then I can build to the farms’ real potential.

    If it is a good enough plan to use public money to develop public air rights over public land, then surely no one will object if I do the same with private land, private air rights, and private money.

    Ray Hyde

  37. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Thank you Groveton, well said.

    Even Fauquier County officials have recently realized that more / new customers = more / new revenue.

    Unfortunately, in the case of the county or state it doesn’t necessarily mean more / new profits, because they are not charging enough. Since we are not charging enough to cover the tab for existing residents those same existing residents figure that new residents will make the losses worse.

    Besides that, the existing residents have gotten used to “having” those trees and they mistakenly think they have a stake in them, just because having those trees over there makes their house worth more and “their” streets less crowded.

    The reason private enterprise doesn’t think like this is that they are not stupid enough to let thier customers get used the idea that they can buy things below cost.

    Except maybe for Ford and Chrysler, and we can see what is happening to them. Maybe bought out by the Chinese.

    Ray Hyde

  38. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Groveton, Regarding your comments/questions of 3:51 p.m., I don’t have a problem with growth. Growth is good, it’s a sign of a successful society. But some growth is more efficient than others; some growth pays its way better than others. I’m interested in identifying the patterns of growth that are benign vs. the patterns that are cancerous.

    Regarding my statements about “pod” subdivisions, I would simply refer you to my column, Pod People” for an explanation.

  39. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Groveton:

    In your woodlot develoed hypothetical the answer is simple:

    There is not concievable way to answer any of the questions because it depends on

    The location within Fairfax Counties 244,000 acres

    What uses are near the project

    What existing roads and rails serve the progect

    What the density, pattern and unit types are in the project

    It could be very good (e.g. contributes to creating a Balanced
    Community) or very bad depending on these and many other factors.

    If determining impacts was easy, someone would have done it already. So far no one has because they start only looking as a few of the factors and then consider only a single municipality to guage the impact.

    EMR

  40. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    there are lots of ways at looking at these issues.

    Here’s one.

    Create a “pod” subdivision

    calculate the cost of maintaining that subdivisions’ streets.

    calculate how much the average homeowner in that subdivision pays in state gas taxes annually … roughly $150.

    ask yourself if you think that $150 covers the actual annual maintenance costs of that subdivision’s roads.

    now ask yourself.. how much of that $150. is left over to build/maintain arterials, connectors, limited-access highways, etc – ALL of the “other” public road infrastructure.

    See.. this is the problem with the concept of asking “what is wrong with people moving in and paying taxes for services and infrastructure”?

    There’s nothing wrong with the question.

    What’s wrong is the diconnect between actually costs and actual taxes.

    part of this is about settlement patterns but part of it is about simple economics that get ignored.

    A gated community pays for their own subdivision roads and their residents $150 goes to actually build and maintain arterials and THAT is still woefully not enough.

    Ditto for those who live in Apartments and Townhouses.

    And then.. think about WHERE the $150 that the gated community, townhouses, and apartments goes to .. at least partially?

    well of course – to cover the remaining uncovered costs of those subdivision roads that those who actually live in – don’t actually pay enough to actually maintain them.

    The bottom line is that we do not collect adequate money from those who are the most prolifigate consumers and users of the transportation network and the mindset persists that all users of the network use about the same amount so we don’t need to worry about different levels of useage.

    i.e. “I already pay taxes for roads”

    and the more popular:

    “growth is good”. “people move in and pay taxes for infrastructure so what’s the problem”?

    If we operated WalMarts like we do roads… all the TV’s would cost the same no matter whether they were compact 13 inchers or giant screen plasmas… and they’d never have LCDs and Plasmas in stock because everytime they got a new delivery they’d sell out in minutes.

    People who were “motivated” would have giant screen TV’s in every room in their home for “cheap”.

    Then everyone would be bitchin and moaning about the large-screen TV “crisis” and the chronic “shortages”.

    Only when we start to charge according to what one actually uses – will we start to see some kind of a sane and rational response to the “crisis”.

    As long as we continue to believe that we all use the same amount and we all already pay more than enough…. we’ll continue the status quo.

  41. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Larry:

    Your Wal*Mart analogy is right on.

    Very well state, the whole example is great.

    When you add the Wealth Gap issue, one can see where governance is headed. Hello Argentina.

    EMR

  42. Ray Hyde Avatar

    “Comerica Inc. was founded in 1849 in Detroit and the Detroit Tigers play in Comerica Park, but this week the bank holding company announced it is moving its headquarters to Dallas–where, it said, the bigger growth opportunities are. Consider it one more vote of confidence in the state the national expansion forgot, and especially in Michigan Governor Jennifer Granholm’s economic agenda.

    Re-elected last year, Ms. Granholm recently rewarded the voters by announcing some $1 billion in new fees and tax increases. The plan would charge Michigan residents higher levies for almost every activity inside the state with a moving part. She would tax trucking, shopping, smoking, hunting, fishing, drinking beer and liquor, using a cell phone and, yes, even dying.”

    http://migop.blogs.com/blog/2007/03/articles_of_int_8.html

    And Comerica is not the only company leaving for Dallas.

    Meanwhile, Wyoming, with no corporate or prsana income tax is thriving, along with Iceland, also with low taxes.

    How do you suppose such places pay for their government services when we can’ seem to do it?

    Whay would a company leave Chicago, which has good public transit for Dallas?

  43. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    gee.. it would seem that the BEST place for Comerica to go and do business would be in 3rd world countries where there are few taxes… and no shortage of folks willing to work for peanuts… and who won’t complain about a lack of health care benefits and all that stuff – right .. and they get to work on bicycles… right?

    I think there just might be a few more issues involved… you know..

    ๐Ÿ™‚

  44. Ray Hyde Avatar

    Hey, its a GOP blog. I just call ’em as I see ’em.

    Goofed again, I said Chicago, when I meant Detroit. I really need to get this East/West thing straightened out.

    Still, after 150 years you’d think they woud have some loyalty.

  45. Ray Hyde Avatar

    Here is another view of what will happen as a result of road tolling:

    “….But if you turn the commons into a market, if the roads are suddenly not “free” (at least, the downtown roads) then the equation changes. People don’t so readily assume that it makes sense to live far apart from where they work. ?The cost of the impact of their behavior is no longer externalized onto taxpayers (in the form of road repairs, road construction, hospital care, etc.) or the general economy (the drag of millions of person-hours wasted in traffic). The cost is internalized directly back to the consumer of the service (the driver on the road).

    There’s a further benefit. Not only are costs being appropriately assigned to users of the system, but the system itself changes — it self-corrects. The very traffic congestion that inspired the tolls begins to melt away as people re-order their affairs. In the short-term, they drive less often to the city. They start to car-pool (i.e., share costs). More than any amount of proslytizing from government (nanny state nagging) could accomplish about the value of car pooling, people do it because it saves them money. Aha! The same force that inspires them to turn down their thermostat or turn off lights in empty rooms, or comparison shop for cheaper shoes, gets them to do the “right thing for the environment.” They discover the “Kiss-N-Ride” and jump on the commuter train. They take cabs, trains, buses, street cars, bicycles and (gosh!) they even walk!

    Over the long term, the appeal of living in the suburbs and working downtown diminishes. Or, more correctly, people make decisions to follow such a pattern with the correct pricing in their heads. One can imagine that real estate values in urban cores — even the cores of suburban areas — will more perfectly reflect the value that one can work/shop/play in close proximity, and the values of outlying properties will be diminished. Butthis doesn’t mean that the suburbds will become wastelands, ghettos. The opposite should occur: As municipal politicians see the new pattern, they will introduce planning rules to encourage density, thereby turning each suburban node into a small dense city unto itself, rather than a mere add-on to The Big Smoke….”

    http://blogtn.trucknews.com/2007/02/road_tolls_market_forces_and_c.htm

    Another blogger states that prcisely this is happening with Chicago’s Metra. Single people who prefer to live in the city use the rails to commute outbound. Some even keep their cars near the suburban stations so that when they arrive they can drive to work after they arrive at the suburban stations.

  46. Ray Hyde Avatar

    Oh, and the article mentioned above closes with this gem:

    “I believe that over time, more and more environmental activists will embrace market solutions to environmental problems, as command and control regulation proves to be an approach with certain limitations — namely that it punishes bad behavior rather than reward correct (or, I should say, rational) behavior.”

  47. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    This month’s Chesapeake Bay Journal has two articles:

    “Development fee could raise millions for Bay cleanup effort”

    and

    “Let all polluters pay for the Chesapeake cleanup”

    http://www.bayjournal.com/article.cfm?article=3039

    Basically advocate that fee’s be placed on activities that pollute the bay – and would end up as your supplied excerpts imply.

    For instance, there would be charge for each square foot of impervious surface or each bag of fertilizer or how much nitrogen that a car emits.

    So it would encourage people to have less impervious surfaces and use less fertilizer and cars that emit less nitrogen.

    and they make the same point – that over time – it would become self-balancing.

    What a grand – Libertarian idea!

  48. Ray Hyde Avatar

    Except that those that need impervious surfaces could buy credits from people like me that have a surplus of absorbing surface. This already happens in the case of wetlands.

    Those that are prohibited from paying the impervious surface fee for some other reason (like “We don’t want you here.”) would be able to collect for being required to provide permeable surfaces at a loss.

    Those that need someplace to put the sewage sludge would pay for the permeable surface they spread that on, too.

    It isn’t a market based solution unless you have buyers and sellers.

    We already have an inducement to use less fertilizer: it is called the price. If you don’t need to spend the money, or if it doesn’t buy you something worth more than the fertilizer costs, then you don’t use it. Those perfectly disgusting ads you see promoting perfect patches of green are designed to make people think it is worth what it costs to achieve.

    I plant ton’s and tons of clover that take nitrogen out of the air and fix it in the soil, at least temporarily. Therefore, those that release excess fixed nitrogen could, in theory, buy credits form me. A better solution would be if I were to “farm” denitrifying bacteria that convert fixed nitrogen to N2. Unfortunately, there is no market for that, yet.

    Denitrifyng bacteria are anaerobic, so if we actually tried such a scheme we would soon discover that farms were a lot less popular.

  49. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “It isn’t a market based solution unless you have buyers and sellers.”

    Ray… was there a “market” for outlawing lead in paint and gasoline?

    How about PCBs and abestos?

    Didn’t you have to pay MORE for a car with anti-pollution equipment on it?

    How about electricity that costs more because of new pollution controls to remove mercury?

    How about the higher costs of goods and services in a shopping center that had to put in a big storm water pond to mitigate runoff?

    The new TMDLs – Total Daily Maximum Load will require sewage treatment plants to remove nitrogen at the limit of technology – 3 to 4 mg per liter and the costs of upgrading the plants will be passed on to the customers who will pay more for the same amount of water.

    I could go on – but charging people for pollution does not really require a “market” per se.

    However, I admit that with some kinds of pollution, INCLUDING the TMDLs they are incorporating market principles – which I support if the results are effective and it’s not a sham like the conservation credits.

    With the TMDL’s localities CAN BUY credits from undeveloped properties that are maintained as to inhibit runoff .. perhaps what you currently do .. so who knows.. some day.. soon.. someone may come knocking to buy your credits.

    (but I’m betting you won’t like the price being offered.. ๐Ÿ™‚ )

    ๐Ÿ™‚

  50. Ray Hyde Avatar

    I distinctly remember that when trtraethyl lead was outlowed in gasoiline the price went up because high quality anti-knock gasoline was more expensive to produce.

    We paid the price for eliminating lead in gas.

    Paint without lead was distinclty inferior to paint with lead. When I was first working in the yacht industry, not to meantion the workboat industry, white lead and red lead were materials I commonly worked with. Maybe that explains my bizarre thinking habits today.

    Nevertheless, at the time, replacemet materials wer inferior and neeed far more maintenance. The customers paid the price for the difference.

    One result was that wooden boats were far more expensive to care for, so we switched to far superior plastic boats – based on petroleum products.

    I’m not convinced that was an environmental plus. Eventually a wooden boat, even one saturated with lead will be recycled into the environment it came from. I don’t think we can say the same for a plastic boat.

    US ships are painted with copper bottom paint: paint that is designed to slough off and carry the barnacles with it. they are repainted every year or so. Russian ships are painted with tributyl tin epoxy which stays on the boat and repels barnacles for years. It is highly toxic, but it stays on the boat.

    Which one is the greater environmental hazard?

    I don’t know, even as an environmental chemist. I do know which one works better. And I know how to make it.

    Yep, cars with antipollution equipment cost more, and they burn more fuel as a result. We all pay for breathing cleaner air. There is also a market in recycling catalytic converters. A recycled convertor can be worth more than the wreck it came from.

    We know mercury is dangerous, and it is worth something to remove it from fly ash. Mercury is also a natural substance we have lived with for eons. We have not all turned into mad hatters yet. We can stop mercury poolution from power plants. All we have to do is give up on power, or rely on solar.

    Which do you think will kill more people?

    Yep, we pay more for property to mitigate runoff.

    But we still prevent property from being developed, because of (potential) runoff that would have been mitigated, and mitigated in a way that creates value and jobs.

    Who pays for that?

    Mitigated in a way that would have allowed for new homes in a way that affect existing homes the least. New homes that would have made more affordable housing available, somewhere.

    That somehwere probably does not have the new storm drainage systems in place, but it is bettter than living on the street.

    “I could go on – but charging people for pollution does not really require a “market” per se.”

    We depart here. This idea is flat out wrong. There is nothing you can buy that is cleaner that you do not pay more for. Conservation of matter and energy translates directly to the market and dollars.

    If you want to think that we charge the induastrial polluters for bad practices, dream on.

    We charge ourselves to have them clean up those practices for our benefit. When we recognize that this is the situation, then we can stop screwing over the people we do NOT pay for practices we demand to benefit ourselves.

  51. Ray Hyde Avatar

    Actually, I dont think the conservation credits are a sham. If you are talking about wetlands, then there is a problem with equivalent wetlands: I’m not convinced that ten acres of created wetlands in the piedmont is anywhere near equivalent to ten acres of Chesapeake wetlands.

    No matter what it costs to create.

    Actually, I have been approached to provide conservation land in return for land that was ruined through development.

    I have been appraoched concerning land for easement.

    You are right. I do not like the price being offered. These idiots seem to think that because I would be doing the right thing, that I should somehow be willing to do it for a loss, or for far less than waht they made on their property.

    Last year conservation easements wer selling for $20,000 each. Now they are $30,000 each.

    I will probably never live long enough to see the rules “eased” enough so I can build one house on 170 acres. If the rules changed tomorrow, the time has passed when I can do it and actually see a profit in terms of cash flow. I would only be speculating on behalf of the future owners, no different than I am speculating for them in terms of walnut and cherry trees.

    One of three things is going to happen. Either they will pay, or I will speculate in conservation easements that seem to be going up in price. In that case my neighbors will pay, and benefit.

    Failing the useful result of either of those options, I’ll just give it to Habitat for Humanity.

    Maybe they can make something out of it.

    These conservation markets are not fully developed yet. You tell me. I make $250 dolars per acre, indefineitely, if I don’t develop.

    A “developable” plot with home is worth $500,000 gross, $75,000 net, to the developer. Over 20 years it is worth another $500,000 to the new owner.

    $575,000 divided by 250 dollars a year is 2300 years. Even considering the 20 year time span it is a difference of 115X.

    In order for me to be indifferent, the developer should be willing to pay me $115,000.

    The county is only charging $30,000 for proffers, while at the same time claiming I’m saving them $2700 per year.

    In other words, the county is not only competing with me unfairly, they are cutting my gonads off.

    Say I am off by an order of magnitude. Saving land at the same rate we are using it would cost the equivalent of $115,000 per home, additional.

    This is what EMR doesn’t say. If he suggested that, I would be his biggest supporter. Surely the billion dollars a sqaure foot (or wahatever) he suggested for Tysons air space has room for $115,000 in it.

    I don’t think we need to save land one for one, or can expect to. But if I could get ten percent of that, or a third of what the county gets, then I would shut up.

    Instead, what I get is minus 20% of less than nothing. Thanks for allthe help, compadres.

  52. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “It isn’t a market based solution unless you have buyers and sellers.”

    With my pollution examples I was pointing out that charging for pollution reduction is not your typical market-based quid-pro-quo willing transaction between two parties both of which benefit from the transaction.

    In fact, you will find that many free market folks consider rules and regs to be extra costs that do not return value to the parties involved – value being defined as personal wealth – as opposed to a cleaner environment.

    And even though we have lots of examples of IMPOSED costs obstensibly for the public good – we still have a polluted Chesapeake Bay that some feel is dying.

    And the solution being advocated is to charge for the practices and behaviors that contribute the pollution.

    What I was saying – is that this kind of an approach is not your typical, conventional “market based” solution.

    The idea of using “credits” IS but it’s not really a true market – it’s a government invention to mimic the market.

    It’s not necessarily a bad thing per se but it assumes that the “environment” is like money – fugible.

    You can and will have “hot spots” and “extra clean” spots with the idea being that they “balance out” – and they don’t.

    Having a locale that has 5 times the mercury pollution of another locale that is a designated “credit” is not a good answer.

    What they’re doing with the TMDLs is better but still not perfect.

    The TMDLs establish a pollution cap for the watershed as well as specific caps on segments.

    But the point I’m making is that this approach is not really the “free market” approach where there is a willing buyer and a willing seller and both parties profit from the transaction.

    In the case of the environment – the costs to the company that produces the product goes up and the cost of the product to the consumer go up and if you did not impose the regulations to force compliance – you would not have less polluting products.

    Even today, we have folks who say that our own pollution laws make our USA-produced products less competitive on the world market where other countries do not have similar pollution laws and so the price of their products is lower.

  53. Ray Hyde Avatar

    I’ll accept that argument it is not a true free-agent market.

    My view is that we have decided that we want a certain product that was not previously offered, and we have placed “an order” for it, in the literal sense. And we have agreed to pay the costs for our order. The only place where it is not free market is that we have essentially told the existing vendors that they must supply this new product.

    But now it turns out that other vendors have figured wou way to improve on the original situation and do so cost effectively. In that regard it now becomes a new free market, voluntarily entered. I guess it is like turning the draft into a volunteer army.

    No matter how those situations are described, i don;t have a problem with them. Where I see a problem is when the “vendor” is requirted to provide a product or service and there is no cash stream at all.

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