Cuccinelli Is Right

Attorney General Kenneth T. Cuccinelli is absolutely right to file a petition against the Environmental Protection Agency for attempting to regulate greenhouse gases, including carbon dixoide, by means of executive fiat. And he is absolutely right to cite the East Anglia email scandals as justification for questioning the so-called “science” underlying the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change report on global warming.

Most Americans wouldn’t know it from relying upon such U.S. media luminaries as the New York Times, Washington Post and network television, but U.K. media news organizations, even the leftist Guardian, have been all over the East Anglia email story. The Labor government has initiated reviews and investigations to examine the integrity of the scientific process. Far from being a “mini-scandal,” as my friend Peter portrays it in the previous post, East Anglia is the tip of the iceberg of what could prove to be the greatest scientific scandal in modern history: the hijacking of science by politicians and ideologues for the purpose of reorganizing society according to their ideological tenets.

As Cuccinelli pithily puts it, “It is political science, not real science.”

Of course, Cuccinelli is himself a politician, and as Peter describes him, “a staunch social conservative” — and as we all know, social conservatives, most of whom who are Bible thumpers who don’t believe in Darwinian evolution, are anti-science. So, let’s not accept Cuccinelli’s appraisal of the significance of the East Anglia scandal. Let’s see what the U.K.-based Institute of Physics, which claims a worldwide membership of 36,000, has to say in a memorandum submitted to Parliament:

The CRU e-mails as published on the internet provide prima facie evidence of determined and co-ordinated refusals to comply with honourable scientific traditions and freedom of information law. The principle that scientists should be willing to expose their ideas and results to independent testing and replication by others, which requires the open exchange of data, procedures and materials, is vital.

This extends well beyond the CRU itself – most of the e-mails were exchanged with researchers in a number of other international institutions who are also involved in the formulation of the IPCC’s conclusions on climate change.

The e-mails reveal doubts as to the reliability of some of the [temperature] reconstructions and raise questions as to the way in which they have been represented.

The “mini-scandal” is growing. Numerous reports have surfaced, calling into question the accuracy of the IPCC report — most notoriously the claim that Himalayan glaciers would melt by 2035, which even the IPCC concedes represented a failure to live up to its own standards. If you rely upon the Washington Post for updates on the IPCC, you would read that “critics have found a few unsettling errors” due to typos and sloppy sourcing, with virtually no explanation of why the international body might feel compelled to restore public trust in its findings. You’d have to read the British press, such as this somewhat polemical column in the Telegraph, for an understanding of what is going on. By the way, has the Post or NY Times yet to seriously report on IPCC chairman Rajendra Pachauri’s conflicts of interest?

Have the Post or the NY Times yet to report on the extraordinary concessions made by Climate Research Unit chief Phil Jones, who was at the heart of the East Anglia scandal, among others that: (1) there is still legitimate debate over whether the current warming period is unprecedented, as it is proclaimed to be, or whether the Medieval Warming Period was even warmer — gee, we thought those matters were “settled” — and (2) that the sources of the data (not the data itself) in the East Anglia database are “probably not as good as they should be.”

Nor have the Post or NY Times yet to acknowledge concerns that the data in the U.S. databases at NASA and NOAA might not be as good as they should be. A recent report, “Surface Temperature Records: A Policy Driven Deception?” has documented how NOAA has systematically reduced the number of weather stations around the world from which to calculate average global temperatures, showing a bias toward eliminating stations in colder regions and substituting statistical interpolations. The authors do come across as polemical in their conclusions about the motives of the NOAA temperature record keepers, but their underlying case about the bias in the measurements has at least superficial merit worth a closer look. (David W. Schnare with the Thomas Jefferson Institute for Public Policy has taken a closer look at one weather station near Harrisonburg and concludes that NOAA’s statistical adjustments have doubled the actual observed warming.)

Finally, there is the stubborn refusal of global temperatures to actually rise over the past 12 years. While the data can be explained away as the result of natural climatic fluctuations temporarily masking the inevitable rise, stable temperatures suggest that the broader trend is consistent only with the “low” range of temperature increases predicted by the climate models, and totally inconsistent with the alarmist scenarios.

None of this is to say that anthropogenic global warming (AGW) has been “disproven,” or is a “hoax,” as the Rush Limbaugh crowd would maintain. What we should conclude from recent developments is that the case for AGW remains unproven. Any “consensus,” if it ever existed, rested upon faith in the integrity of contemporary temperature measurements, reconstructions of past temperatures through proxies like tree rings, and the integrity of the IPCC synthesis of the science. We can no longer have faith in those assumptions.

Therefore, it is entirely reasonable for Ken Cuccinelli to suggest that the EPA is making an extra-constitutional power grab on the basis of unproven science.

Warning to environmentalists: I expect that the overwhelming majority of environmentalists have become so attached to the AGW hypothesis that they will reject the recent round of criticisms out of hand. They have too much invested not to defend it to the death. But if the AGW hypothesis ever is discredited, they will go down with the sinking ship, and the entire environmental movement will be tarred. And that would be a tragedy. The world is full of proven environmental problems, too numerous to list here. While we certainly need to continue researching the dynamics of climate change, we should focus on fixing what we know is broken.


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49 responses to “Cuccinelli Is Right”

  1. It's pretty clear you're right. Just look at how badly those scientists screwed up the Tsunami predictions and of that matter the earthquakes in Haiti and Peru.

    Clearly they have an evil and idealogical-driven agenda designed to scare the bejesus out of people.

    We have turned on govt and turned on our institutions, haven't we?

    We can believe that we are capable of destroying the Chesapeake Bay – eh? but anything larger than that just has to be a conspiracy between the govt, whacked-out scientists and the mainstream media.

    These guys remind me of the cigarette smokers who claimed that the govt never conclusively proved the connect to lung cancer .. and that the government and scientists had an "agenda" in promoting untruths.

    Next thing you know… Bacon and company will be saying that banning Kepone was a politically-driven grandstanding designed to "get" Allied Chemical.

  2. Anonymous Avatar

    As I've posted on a number of occasions, I don't know what to think about global warming. However, this situation again raises the very important problem (IMO) that we lack a single standard of conduct for our politicians. State attorneys general have consistently sued to challenge federal agencies, most especially the EPA, over environmental standards. Normally, the challenge is to raise a claim that the standards are not strict enough or that the Agency should regulate what it is not regulating.

    Hardly anyone ever challenges this type of lawsuit as somehow being wrong. But many seem to become unglued if the challenge goes the other way.

    I don't accept that. Either it is acceptable for states to challenge the feds on environmental matters or it isn't. Otherwise we have no standard — period.

    TMT

  3. Gooze Views Avatar
    Gooze Views

    "East Anglia is the tip of the iceberg of what could prove to be the greatest scientific scandal in modern history: the hijacking of science by politicians and ideologues for the purpose of reorganizing society according to their ideological tenets."

    Woah! Talk about hyperventilating!

    By the way, Jim, I never had a lot of faith in many British newspaper rags (Page 5 anyone?) and probably have read more of them than you have. The Economist takes a more measured view on the East Anglia situation.

    But what the hell, you made up your mind years ago.

    I do find it curious that with all the problems confronting the Commonwealth from hundreds of public school teachers facing firings to no money at all for roads, our Attorney General makes this his priority.

    Peter Galuszka

  4. Gooze Views Avatar
    Gooze Views

    "East Anglia is the tip of the iceberg of what could prove to be the greatest scientific scandal in modern history: the hijacking of science by politicians and ideologues for the purpose of reorganizing society according to their ideological tenets."

    Woah! Talk about hyperventilating!

    By the way, Jim, I never had a lot of faith in many British newspaper rags (Page 5 anyone?) and probably have read more of them than you have. The Economist takes a more measured view on the East Anglia situation.

    But what the hell, you made up your mind years ago.

    I do find it curious that with all the problems confronting the Commonwealth from hundreds of public school teachers facing firings to no money at all for roads, our Attorney General makes this his priority.

    Peter Galuszka

  5. I don't have a problem challenging EPA from either side.

    But this particular issue has become a clarion call for the same folks who basically have become anti-govt, anti-media, and anti-institutions they consider to be "liberal".

    These folks apparently don't have a problem with things the govt and scientists and the media reporting of things like seat belts, baby seats, safety caps on Tylenol, airplane design and maintenance procedures, etc, etc, etc.

    They have no problems understanding that sewage needs to be regulated and they understand when you don't properly regulate air pollution that Bophal and Union Carbides will happen.

    But then when you get to Ozone Holes they start to go wobbly

    and then global warming.. the wheels come off.. and it's a massive conspiracy between govt, media and idealogical-driven scientists.

    Are there Govt Conspiracies? yes. ARe there slanted media? Yes. Are there ideologically-driven scientists. Yes.

    Is this a perfect storm of a gathering of the worse elements of each to promote a monumental hoax?

    Sorry folks.. living involves using one's brain.

  6. Waldo Jaquith Avatar
    Waldo Jaquith

    Jim, that Institute of Physics quote does not mean what you think it means (or perhaps wish it to mean). The memorandum is really quite mundane. Their primary complaint is that these researchers failed to comply with open government laws and the scientific tradition of sharing information, referring to their illegal refusal to turn data over to climate change denialist gadflies. Their secondary complaint is that a very small group of people at a college that none of us had ever heard of before were involved in not releasing this data, which has "worrying implications" for the "integrity of scientific research in this field." They're not saying that the data lacks integrity. They're not saying that it might lack integrity. They're just saying that it has "implications" that it could affect the "integrity" of some "research." Well, sure, if East Bumfuck University provided inaccurate data (which hasn't been shown to be the case) and that inaccurate data ended up being meaningful in the enormous global pool of climate data that it's being dumped into (which hasn't been shown to be the case), and that resulted in inaccurate climate change forecasts (which hasn't been shown to the base), then that might be a big deal.

    But since there's no evidence for any of that, just some distant worries. Concluding that this casts doubt on global climate change is like seeing a helium balloon and believing that it casts doubt on gravity.

  7. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Larry, Sarcasm does not constitute an argument. You totally ignore the substantive points in my post.

    Peter, decrying my post as "hyperventilating" and accusing me of "making up your mind years ago" does not constitute an argument. You totally ignore the substantive points in my post. (I could accuse you of having made up your mind year ago as well, but, then, I recognize that such a characterization would have absolutely no bearing on the merits of your argument.)

    Waldo, thank you for taking my post seriously enough to address the substance. I would respond in this way: While East Anglia University may be "East Bumfuck" in our estimation, the fact remains that it is the repository of one of the world's three databases on global temperatures, and its database was a pillar of IPCC report, to which all AGW advocates genuflect.

    The East Anglia data have, in fact, been shown to be a mess. And the reason the Climate Research Unit has fought off the FOI queries is because Phil Jones and the others knew that it was a mess. The data have been massaged and adjusted in ways that are opaque to the outside world. The result of those adjustments is a temperature record that seems to obliterate the existence of a Medieval Warm Period and seems to show that the temperatures of the past 20 years are unprecedented in human history — conclusions that made their way into the IPCC report.

  8. Gooze Views Avatar
    Gooze Views

    Jim,
    My understanding is that the IPCC (and presumably those at East Anglia) do not come up with data on global warming themsevles — they aggregate data from others and analyze it.
    Big difference in terms of scienttif method.
    Also, some of the stuff about the glaciers melting by 2035 or whatever was acknowledged as being wrong by the authors of the relevant IPCC report and it was not included in a final report to the UN.
    Have you ever made a mistake in writing a report? I know I have.
    What surprises me is that the right-wing community here and elsewhere (especially the wonks and wonkettes) are using the East Anglia emails, admittedly suspect, as a means to cast doubt on an entire body of data dn analysis THAT MAY NOT HAVE ORIGINATED WITH EAST ANGLIA OR HAD ANYTHING TO DO WITH THAT SCHOOL.
    What I find offensive with the McDonnell adminisitration (which points you seem to ignore) is that this is not the bailiwick of a state AG's office. It is now because the right-wing state officials now in office have created some kind of network to resist what the right wing wonks find to be anathema, namely concern about global warning which much of the world takes quite seriously. Frankly, this is reminiscent of Southern AGs and governors who banded together to fight Brown vs. Topeka. It's almost as if we are seeing some 21st century form if "interposition" as applied to climate changes rather than racial integration.
    It's certainly the right of anyone to disagree with data on climate change, but why (please tell me) is this the pervue of Cuccinelli? If so many jobs are going to be lost with cap and trade (which looks deader by the minute), please explain to me why the state's biggest electric utility, Dominion, is in favbor of it, as is Duke Energy? Please tell me that finding new technology to control GHG and CO2 won't reate new, needed jobs? Why shiould we stick with older technology ones that are going to be doomed anyway? Doesn't the AG have bigger fish to fry in terms of rebuilding the state's economy and finding ways to prevent the gutting of our badly needed public education system?
    You have answered none of these questions. Instead, you and your comrades are trying to create a Watergate out of Angliagate.

    Peter Galuszka

  9. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Peter, I believe you are correct in saying that East Anglia (and NASA and NOAA) aggregate the weather data. They don't have swarms of minions running around the world recording temperatures themselves.

    The data comes from existing weather stations, usually maintained by national governments for their own purposes. This data has to be collected, put into a standard format and aggregated in a central database. But that's only the beginning of the process. Many judgments are called for. How many weather stations do you need to collect from? How far should they be spaced apart? How do you adjust for long-term changes in land use that create the "heat island" affect near some weather stations and not others? What assumptions do you make about the temperature in areas where there are no weather stations? How do you format all the data to feed into climate models? It's a very complex business.

    If the people at East Anglia, NASA and NOAA were driven by a open-minded approach to the science, as opposed to advancing an agenda, they would make the data as transparent as possible, make the statistical refinements as transparent as possible, and be receptive to FOI requests by people who want to see if there are any biases in the collection and massaging of the data. Sadly, that does not appear to be the case.

    Responsible critics do not contend that the keepers of the data are consciously manipulating the data to perpetrate a hoax on the global population. But it is fair to ask if their unconscious biases have had an impact on how the data is organized and presented.

    Perhaps you think that only right-wingers and tobacco companies are subject to unconscious biases. Personally, I think such biases are endemic to human nature, and the best way to spot them and correct for them is to insist upon openness.

  10. I don't think we know much more about global warming than we do with how Tsunamis "work" but I think it pretty ignorant in some respects for folks who have NOT been studying it for 10,20,30 years in a scientific context to come up with their own ideas of what is true or not – based on what?

    I'm not discounting plain old common sense and basic intelligence but don't ya'll think it pretty arrogant and presumptuous for someone who has no background and most of whose knowledge comes not from scientific investigation but the "media" to tell the Scientists why their predictions about Tsunamis is so wrong?

    So the folks who are involved with Tsunamis are idealogical-driven and hope to gain something by scaring the bejesus out of the population – when those scientists knew all along that the Tsunamis were not going to strike all along – right?

    And the media was in on it also.. did you see how all the cable channels (including FOX news) had their cameras trained on the beaches of Hilo and environs.

    Now we know that the Tsunamis "experts" have been exposed for what they are. Incompetent idealogical-driven zealots.

    I think Waldo is correct. Accepting the concept that the earth could die is like accepting our own mortality – and we don't do that very well.

  11. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I suspicious of people going to the government to seek taxpayer money or power over someone else. I'm not arguing that the global warming proponents are necessarily wrong on all counts. But just as Eisenhower warned us about the military-industrial complex, I think we need to be warned about the Global Warming complex.

    We didn't and shouldn't eliminate either the military or the contractors who supply it, but I think we need oversight, skepticism and transparency looking at Defense Department budgets and projects, and the very same thing over the Global Warming complex. Ditto for Wall Street. We should not stop all funding for climate research, but we should have oversight, skepticism and transparency looking at climate science budgets and projects.

    TMT

  12. Larry G Avatar

    I have discrete areas that I think about with respect to global warming.

    First, the idea that in responding to it we will destroy our economy, kill jobs and hurt people's income.

    We don't make this same argument when we tax us to equip our military – a single carrier costs billions of dollars.

    Is that not billions of dollars diverted from the economy?

    If that carrier had been instead retrofitting coal plants to restrict pollution further, would it have any different effect on taxes or jobs?

    Another discrete item is have we respond equivalently to global warming the same way we responded to..tsunami … seat belts, lung cancer, etc.

    Why do we blithely accept the evil government, scientific ideologues, and conspiratorial liberal media when it comes to implementing these other things that are considered threats but when it's comes to GW… it's clearly the work of evil doers?

    As a society, we've become schitzo . the same govt that we feel has been taken over by zealots continues to be involved in our lives in innumerable ways that we apparently do trust them on.

    For the folks opposed to the govt – a CONSISTENT approach would be that if you distrust te government -you district them – period.

    You don't pick and choose which issues you distrust the govt on.

    The same deal with science. Why do you trust some science but not other science?

    Then the media … If Wapo and NYT are liberal rags that lie then why read them at all on ANYTHING? Why not walk away from them completely and switch off to media you do like?

    That's my main observation of the anti-GW folks.

    They seem to be chock full of double standards in their approach to the world in general.

    Geeze.. if you're gonna have principles.. for gawd sake – have principles.

    Ron Paul has principles folks.

    he does not vary his stance about govt according to his favorite issue.

    he's consistent down the line.

    Even a Luddite is more consistent than the anti-GW in terms of consistency of position.

    If you don't trust science, then fine.. don't trust science.

    but don't come back with evil conspiracies for one kind of science and not for other kinds.

  13. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Is that not billions of dollars diverted from the economy?

    NO

    If that carrier had been instead retrofitting coal plants to restrict pollution further, would it have any different effect on taxes or jobs?

    YES

    RH

  14. Larry G Avatar

    re: If that carrier had been instead retrofitting coal plants to restrict pollution further, would it have any different effect on taxes or jobs?

    YES "

    How so?

    At the end of the day – how your taxes are actually spent is not about the amount spent but for what purpose – right?

    Isn't this not about the taxes or jobs but the purpose for which those taxes are actually spent?

    Those same taxes could be spent on health care or more homeland security or more Coast Guard cutters, etc…

    why is spending that same money on GL efforts any different than spending it on aircraft carriers?

  15. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Insisting on better evidence for global warming also means insisting on better eveidence AGAINST global warming, since science is (ALLEGEDLY) neutral.

    It is a bad strategy for fiscal conservatives to follow.

    For example, one arguement is that the data is faulty because thousands of temperature monitoring stations ahve been overtaken by expanding urban aras and they now give faulty readings because of the urban het islands.

    I don't see the logic in in claiming that we don't have global warming because thousands of locations are somehow artificially warmer and that is throwing the data off.

    The problem is that there are plenty of other places, not affected by urban heat islands that do show a consistent warming trend. We do have plenty of glaciers that hav receded far beyond their historical limits of ebb and flow.

    We can still argue about the signal to noise ratio, and the quality of the data, but there is very little to make us beleive that there is NO antrhopogenic global warming.

    It is simply not reasonable to believe that we can dig up millions of tons of fossile carbon and burn it without shifting the concentration in the biosphere.

    Conservatives will ultimately lose this battle. Ont he other hand, I have argued for years, that sooner or later environmentalists would cry wolf once too often, and that this would cost far mor than the ever saved previously.

    This may be a case in point.

    However, even if we concede there is such a thing as anthropogenic global warming what we don;t know is what we can reasonably do about it. THAT is the battle fiscal conservatives should be fighting.

    Where is the evidence that we can cut combustion by up to 80% without causing as much or more damamge than global warming will cause?

    There is a lot more evidence for anthropogenic global warming then there is evidence that the proposed cures will work. In order to use their strongest argument fiscal conservatives will have to give up on their weaker one.

    If they don't, and their "no global warming" argument turns out to be false, their strong argument will be overwhelmed by a tidal wave of "we gotta do something, anything"kind of thinking.

    RH

    RH

  16. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    At the end of the day – how your taxes are actually spent is not about the amount spent but for what purpose – right?

    ———————————

    That is why the answer to your quesion is YES.

    The carrier and pollution control ahve different purposes and different ROI's and therfore different effects on the economy.

    RH

  17. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "Hardly anyone ever challenges this type of lawsuit as somehow being wrong. But many seem to become unglued if the challenge goes the other way."

    The burden of proof and standard of qulity should be equal in both directions. But some people come unglued of the challenge goes the other way because they beleive they have some prior or superior rights.

    RH

  18. Larry G Avatar

    Both the carrier and the efforts to reduce GHG are in response to perceived threats.

    and if you believe the Pentagon, the two are actually intertwined.

    But in neither case do you have a quantifiable ROI. I'm not sure how you characterize an expenditure as ROI when you are spending the money ostensibly to head off a threat.

    That's the fundamental problem here.

    Many folks think if we don't buy the carrier that bad stuff will happen to us.

    But many of those same folks don't believe that bad stuff will happen if we don't deal with GHG.

    In neither case, is there a virtually certainty of harm – only the perception of the potential.

    So we TRUST the government to build that carrier in response to a perceive threat but we DON'T TRUST the government to perform that same function with respect to GHG.

    Why?

    That's what I don't understand from the folks who support the military but opposed GHG efforts.

    I'm just not understanding how they arrive at the two different answers.

  19. R. Stanton Scott Avatar
    R. Stanton Scott

    Anyone here who does not believe that the Earth is warming and that we are causing it–and genuinely wants a look at the arguments supporting this idea–should read through the articles at Coby Beck's blogs: How to Talk to a Climate Skeptic.

    It's real, people. The freakin' Department of Defense thinks so, for crying out loud: "Climate Change and energy will play significant roles in the future security environment." (2010 QDR, page xv).

    We can manage it and save the space oasis we call home, or ignore it in the name of saving an automobile- and McMansion-centric economy and suffer the consequences.

  20. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    But in neither case do you have a quantifiable ROI.

    There is an ROI and it is quantifiable, within limits.

    "Not Quantifiable" is just a cop out.

    RH

  21. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    as ROI when you are spending the money ostensibly to head off a threat.

    Roughly speaking it is the value of the threat times the probability that the defense will work.

    Suppose the planet is threatened by a giant meteor. We know how to solve the problem, but the cost of doing it will be 1000 times the resources we have available……

    Oh well, Never mind…..

    RH

  22. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    You cannot talk to a climate changeskeptic.

    Their mind is made up and no amount of evidence will change their mind.

    The facts are dissonant with their core values.

    ——————————

    I'm not sure eliminating McMansions and Automobiles will do the trick. (Notice the proposed attack on property rights implicit in this idea)

    It takes a good economy to support a good environment.

    "He [Hernando de Soto] estimated that 68 percent of Haitian city dwellers and 97 percent of their rural counterparts live in housing for which no one has clear legal title — no one.

    Tell me, if you were building a house for which you had no legal title, how interested would you be in building a more durable structure? Not very."

    http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100301/EDITORIAL/3010333

    RH

  23. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    There isn't much point in solving the GHG problem if we then suffer global thermonuclear armageddon.

    or vice versa.

    Larry is right though, it does SEEM as if the same folks who favor the carrier are the ones who fail to recognize an equal threat that doesn't present itself with a convenient enemy.

    But then Stanton correctly points out that even the agencies that buy carriers recognize the other threats. In their view, a serious global warming catastrophe or a serious energy crisis actually increases the likelihood that you will need that aircraft carrier someday.

    I hate to say it, but war is the one response to a crisis in resources that humans have much success in using.

    RH

  24. Larry G Avatar

    quantify the ROI on a 6 billion dollar carrier.

  25. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Of 65 US carriers buil , six have been sunk due to enemy action.

    The US economy is worth $42 trillion, and the defense budget to protect it is almost $700 billion. About $46,000 per person.

    Historically Americans run around a 0.05% chance of being killed in war and we are involved in a war around 18% of the time.

    Therefore, your personal ROI of the defense pepartment as a whole is about 47 to 1 overall (your chances of monetary gain unaffected by war), but it is a lot higher than that once you reach 35 years of age.

    Aircraft carriers disproportionately project our defense away from the US but they don't always succeed in their mission, so the ROI on an aircraft carrier worksout to around 55 to 1.

    If you earn $46000 a year you ought to be willing to pay between $500 and $1000 a year for the protecton you get.

    RH

  26. Larry G Avatar

    " If you earn $46000 a year you ought to be willing to pay between $500 and $1000 a year for the protecton you get."

    how about "protection" from Global Warming? Can you compute that ROI?

  27. Larry G Avatar

    what's the probability that war will destroy our economy?

    isn't that the calculation for ROI for air craft carriers and the Defense Budget?

    You're not paying for the certainty that that outlay will save our economy – only the possibility that it might.

    so you're paying to mitigate a threat – not a known outcome.

    You could pay a whole lot MORE money with the same premise and there is no guarantee that any amount of money will prevent it from happening necessarily.

    What is the possibility that a war could completely kill our economy?

    On a percentage basis?

    is it .1, .001, .000001?

    How can you compute an ROI on something other than a known outcome?

  28. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "They have too much invested not to defend it to the death. But if the AGW hypothesis ever is discredited, they will go down with the sinking ship, and the entire environmental movement will be tarred. And that would be a tragedy."

    I've been making this warning for decades. Incremental environmentalism always assumes that if a little control is good, then more is better. Soner or later, this will cause a problem for them.

    RH

  29. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    what's the probability that war will destroy our economy?

    isn't that the calculation for ROI for air craft carriers and the Defense Budget?

    You're not paying for the certainty that that outlay will save our economy – only the possibility that it might.

    =================================

    Right. And I calculated that possibility two ways: Ot of the past 130 years we have been at war around 33 years. The economy has not been dtotally destroyed during our war years. I also calculated the possibility that one might be a casualty of war, and therfore not benefit from any economy that follows.

    But what is it that you are arguing? That it cannot be done, or that I have not done it correctly?

    This is only a ten minute exercise, so I'll admit it could be done better. For one thng, we invest in a lot of other things that promote and protet the economy, like education and the highway system, so the ROI attributed to defense is overstated.

    But I submit that your objections to my method mean that there must be an acceptable method, we just have not found it yet.

    This has been my argument all along: we don't have agreed upon methodology for determining ROI, not that it cannot be done or is unmeasurable.

    RH

  30. Larry G Avatar

    "This has been my argument all along: we don't have agreed upon methodology for determining ROI, not that it cannot be done or is unmeasurable."

    How can you calculate an accurate ROI on something that is not a 100% probability by a date certain?

    You don't know what the cost is to prevent a war that would destroy the economy. You're just putting money on that task with no idea whether or not you're putting too much or not enough.

    right?

  31. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    It is based on historical actuals: 233 years of history 33 years of war. This is a rough estimate and it could be improved on since not all wars are of equal intensity.

    Again, your comments on;t suggest that it cannot be done, but that we have not agreed on how to do it.

    It is common to forast an ROI based on certain assumptions. Otherwise, how would you ever be able to rank ANY proposed investment? the ROI for that investment has to come in the future.

    Your guess as to what it is will either be right or wrong, but there will be an ACTUAL ROI, someday.

    You can, of course propose an artificially high ROI in order to get your project sold, but that does not make it a better project once the real ROI is known.

    And naturally you bank that knowledge for input to your next round of setting priorities.

    We claimed an ROI for METRO that never materialized. next time we add on to metro, we should consider what happened last time.

    RH

  32. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    It is based on historical actuals: 233 years of history 33 years of war. This is a rough estimate and it could be improved on since not all wars are of equal intensity.

    Again, your comments on;t suggest that it cannot be done, but that we have not agreed on how to do it.

    It is common to forast an ROI based on certain assumptions. Otherwise, how would you ever be able to rank ANY proposed investment? the ROI for that investment has to come in the future.

    Your guess as to what it is will either be right or wrong, but there will be an ACTUAL ROI, someday.

    You can, of course propose an artificially high ROI in order to get your project sold, but that does not make it a better project once the real ROI is known.

    And naturally you bank that knowledge for input to your next round of setting priorities.

    We claimed an ROI for METRO that never materialized. next time we add on to metro, we should consider what happened last time.

    RH

  33. Gooze Views Avatar
    Gooze Views

    Here's a link for a front-page New York Times story about the email controvery
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/03/science/earth/03climate.html?ref=global-home

    So much for the assertation that the "liberal"MSM ingornes this.
    Peter Galuszka

  34. Larry G Avatar

    I find myself dismayed and incredulous on the climate issue.

    Dismayed because of the harm done to the cause of science but incredulous because some folks are apparently incapable of thinking their way through the issue.

    Scientists are human – and yes they are "tribal" and yes they sometimes (often?) have a derisive attitude toward the large populations of people who are simply not literate in science and math concepts – a fact painfully made apparent by the US high school academic rankings in Science and Math literacy.

    And remember, these are the same Americans who cannot identify major countries like India and Brazil on maps and are unable to understand how to program a remote or understand that virus protection on a computer is a weekly update service instead of static software.

    Don't get me wrong, I consider myself also – ignorant – on a wide range of issues – but I'm not proud of it.

    But if you asked a climate skeptic if they believe that cigarettes can cause lung cancer – and more important, HOW it CAN cause lung cancer – would you find them disputing the theory behind cigarettes causing lung cancer?

    If you don't know the mechanism behind how cigarettes causes lung cancer – then, my friend, you ARE ignorant.

    It's an ugly word that most of us don't like but it's true for most of us.

    So that's the starting point for most folks without a science background would "challenge" climate change; i.e. they know no more about the mechanisms behind climate change than any other scientific phenomena including lung cancer.

    So what's the difference?

    Part of it is that the Scientific community itself is … now hang on to your hats here – human and suffers from the same flaws as other humans.

    they often have disagreements that balloon into raging controversies that spill into the public realm.

    this is not a recent thing.. Science has always been this way. Way back when, scientists were actually put to death for heretical "fundings".

    My "take away" from the Climate Controversy is this – there is not unanimous agreement on the concept but ENOUGH scientists are in ENOUGH agreement that the implications are troubling.

    I equate this to way back in the early days when scientists were developing evidence that cigarettes were a proximate cause of lung cancer – and there was controversy.

    The Tobacco companies entered the fray with their own "science" and their own "scientists" and it took quite some time before a consensus was reached, and, in truth, there are still some doubters but the issue has been accepted if grudgingly.

    I'd like nothing more than to find out that the science of climate warming is a false alert.. that they are wrong but until then simple logic tells me to consider the consequences if they are right.

    I can't rule it out.

    It could be true.

    What should I do right now – if it might be true?

    Here's what I would not do.

    I would not reject it out of hand because of some idiot emails from some inside-baseball players.

    We might have a problem. We might have a very big problem. To deny this outright is …well.. it's just plain dumb in my view.

    But GOOZE – you oughta know.. that ANYTHING you say on this issue that involves an article in the NYT – is automatically discounted – no?

  35. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Gee, Peter, The New York Times has finally published an article months after the scandal broke.
    The article managed to provide absolutely no new information whatsoever. But it did acknowledge that a controversy exists. That's real progress!

    You know what this story tells me? It tells me that the scandal is so huge that even the NY Times can't ignore it. The Times *can* sweep the scandal under the rug. It *can* refuse to do any serious reporting. It *can* avoid asking the same kinds of questions about the NASA and NOAA databases that the English newspapers are asking about East Anglia. But the controversy has reached such epic proportions that the Times can no longer pretend that it does not exist.

  36. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "I can't rule it out. "

    I can't rule out the possiblity that over use of the precautionary strategy will be just as expensive as unduerusing it.

    There is NO upside to denying global warming if it is true, and there is NO upside to overplaying it whether it is true or not.

    RH

  37. Larry G Avatar

    well.. as with spending money on Defense – how do you know you have spent too much or not enough to head off a future downside or failure?

    You cannot "undo" something that underestimates the potential and failure occurs.

    so that leaves you with trying to decide what to do (or not) – right?

    I can remember with great clarity a couple of folks I know who died of lung cancer after being life-long smokers and I remember the surprise in their voices when they said something to the effect that they knew that smoking could cause cancer but they never thought it would be them.

    According to Ray.. NOT smoking has costs aso – that must be considered….that a certain amount of pollution is necessary for life…

    Global Warming is about smoking folks.

    In all of your lifetimes, I bet you can remember the day when you ate in a restaurant and either smoked or smelled the smoke from others – and now I bet that virtually every one of you would have a hissy fit if someone lit up in your next visit to a restaurant, or waiting room, or car, etc.

    All of this happened in the course of about 2 decades – from doubters to believers.

    but we don't learn….

    we're back to the same problem all over again…

    I'm appoplexic.

    The same folks yammering about how we consigning our kids to fiscal hell from our deficit spending apparently have no such qualms what-so-ever with regard to consigning our kids to climate hell on earth.

    And we have an idiot AG and supporters who have no problem with the EPA telling us how to clean up the Chesapeake Bay but do with other issues.

    How would you folks feel is this idiot sued the EPA over the Chesapeake Bay cleanup?

    Isn't that ALSO a states-rights issue?

  38. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    You cannot "undo" something that OVERestimates the potential and failure occurs, or not, either.

    Despite the apparent comfort level that the precuationary syndrome produces, there is no logical reason to assume that it is a better choice then the other.

    Mathematically, it is a wash.
    Statistically, it is a wash.
    Costwise and probability wise, it is a wash.

    Emotionally, that is hard to understand, but those are the facts or at least the strongly supported mathematical theory. Uness you are willing to throw out the idea that 2+2 = 4, you pretty much have to accept it for what it is.

    What you are suggesting is that there is no acceptable alterntive to the precautionary principle and therefore it carries a heavier weight, as a matter of moral conscience or something.

    But notice that the root word in conscience is science.

    If you apporach eer project with the precauationary principle in mind, it amounts to setting an Artificially high ROI on every investment to be made.

    Eventually you run out of money, and then the next project on the list (or the next ten or hundred) are the ones that don't get done because you invested more than necessary on all the previous precautionary projects.

    If that next one is also a "must do or else" project, then you are screwed. And you got there by overspending on all the other, previous, "must do or else" projects. Your previous precautionary spending turns out to be your demise.

    =============================

    Your smoking argument is reductio ad absurdium. It promotes obfuscation in place of elucidation.

    And it misrepresents my position. We have plenty of evidence to support limitatins on smoking, and we have the right to do that. nothing says that we cannot change the rules. But changing the rules has costs and when we impose costs on somoen to invoke new rules it is up to us to compensate for the loss.

    Changing the rules on smoking has costs and benefits. We believe the benefits outweigh the costs, based on the evidence at hand. Therefore there is no reason not to take some of the benefits and compensate those that take a loss: we still come out ahead.

    Don't confuse the idea that changing the rules on smoking has costs (AND BENEFITS), with the idea that smoking has (mainly) costs. That kind of nonsense thinking is not helpful to the problem at hand.

    Otherwise, the analogy is a good one: global warming is (or will be) the result of global smoking. it is just not reasonable to think we can dig up millions of tons of dormant carbon and place it in the biosphere without some kind of effect.

    It is just as unreasonable to think we can reduce combustion 80% without serious effects, too.

    If we spend too much we consign our kids to fiscal hell, and if we spend too little, we consign them to climate hell.

    Like the joke says. "It's Hell, ain't it?"

    RH

  39. Larry G Avatar

    so then.. we can safely cut the defense budget in half and save our kids eh?

  40. Larry G Avatar

    " We have plenty of evidence to support limitatins on smoking, and we have the right to do that. nothing says that we cannot change the rules. But changing the rules has costs and when we impose costs on somoen to invoke new rules it is up to us to compensate for the loss."

    huh? so what are you saying? That we cannot change the rules on smoking without compensating the smokers or the folks who make a living from tobacco?

    explain this please – IN THE CONTEXT of smoking… don't go off on one of your rope-a-dope tangents on property rights.

  41. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    It only has to do with proerty rights. The Constitution only says that when property (Does not specify kind or type of property) is taken for a public use (does not say what kind or degree of use) that the owner of the property must be compensated.

    Smokers are still going to smoke. As far as I can figure out, if we ban smoking in public places that are privately owned, we have not taken any property from the smokers.

    But if it turns out that the owners of restaurants lose business as a result of the law, then they have lost property because we have claimed new property rights (the right to be on their property without being surrounded by smokers).

    It seems perfeccly clear to me, and it would be to you if you were interested in simplicity and clarity rather than obfuscation, avoiding your constitutional responsibilites, and sending the bill to whoever you can label as "the bad guy", whether or not he was bad before you changed the rule.

    The only reason this has anything to do with global warming is that those who wish to control global warming seem willing to do it at any cost.

    I believe that figuring out he costs as fairly, dispassionately, equitably and reasonably is the very first step in solving this problem. What we saw in copenhagen was that negotiation on a global scale. Rich countries vs poor countries.

    As a policy make I may be blind to costs incurred, but If I'm the incurree, I will see those costs quite clearly.

    I would have a lot better chance of selling my policy were I not so blind.

    RH

  42. Larry G Avatar

    " But if it turns out that the owners of restaurants lose business as a result of the law, then they have lost property because we have claimed new property rights (the right to be on their property without being surrounded by smokers)."

    Are you accusing the Gov and anyone in the General Assembly who voted for this as guilty of this?

  43. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Yes, actually, providing that restaurant woners actually lost money. I know of no evidence this is the case.

    Would you deny, that you as a non-smoker have gained a new property right? You now control whether someone else may allow smoking on his property. (Providing that property is open to the public. You have no such right in his private home, yet.)

    Previously he had control of his property and he could ban smoking, have a smokers only restaurant, have smoking and non-smoking sections, or tell non-smokers to kwitcherbellyakin or go elsewhere.

    His customers had no rights to put preconditions on their ability to partake of his gustatorial pleassures.

    Now that has changed, and property rights have obviously changed as well.

    Considering how the concentration of wealth has changed over the last 40 years, it is one thing to agitate for some kind of playing field where the equality of opportunity is a little greater than now.

    But it is quite another thing to start with the porposition that we all own the environment equally, but only some should be required to pay for its maintenance.

    Running a society is a simple problem of constrained optimization. the hard part is determining WHO exactly gets constrained and WHO gets optimized.

    http://www.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/mankiw/files/Spreading%20the%20Wealth%20Around.pdf

    RH

  44. Larry G Avatar

    well I'm asking you. Do you think the GA and the Gov erred in passing that law?

  45. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    No. I think they erred in not paying compensation for reducing property rights of the restaurant owners and handing new rights to the public.

    RH

  46. Larry G Avatar

    so.. the Gov and the members of the GA are liars and thieves?

  47. Gooze Views Avatar
    Gooze Views

    Jim,
    I believe that this recent NYT story is one of many it has printed. I really doubt it is THE FIRST ONE.

    PG

  48. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I have no knowledge as to whether restaurant owners or other proeprties where smoking is now forbidden actually have a reasonable claim for losses due to change in property rights.

    If there were losses that were not compensated then the government is derelict in its duty to protect those who suffered losses. At the very least, the government should conduct a study to determine whether there may have been losses. This is an elementary matter of conducting quality control on their own legislation.

    If it develops that there are losses and reasonable grievances, then the government has an obligation to act to protect all citizens equally.

    Then, if they knowingly refuse to compensate, I'd say they are complicit in theft of private property.

    Whether they are liars as well depends on whether they make statements contradictory to known facts.

    I doubt if any of these people have ever considered their actions this way, so I'd be inclined to agree with Groveton and put them in the category of clueless rather than avaricious.

    But to the poor SOB that loses a hundred grand or so, it makes very little difference if they are greedy or stupid.

    RH

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