Compare and Contrast: Chesterfield and Henrico on the Meals Tax

Jay Stegmaier
Jay Stegmaier

by James A. Bacon

Henrico County isn’t the only Virginia jurisdiction where citizens will vote on a meals-tax referendum this fall. Chesterfield County leaders also are seeking a meals tax. But the approach taken by the two localities is very different, which may explain why Henrico residents are restive while their neighbors south of the James River are not.

Unlike Henrico, which proposes to implement the full 4% tax allowed by state law, Chesterfield seeks only a 2% increase. County leaders originally sought the full 4%, but after taking a closer look at county finances decided that they could live for now with a 2% tax yielding approximately $8 million in new revenue. (Henrico’s tax would net about $18 million.)

Chesterfield leaders also did a shrewder job of packaging. I got some insight into Chesterfield’s thinking from County Manager Jay Stegmaier, whom I interviewed Wednesday over the phone.

Henrico’s referendum asks citizens to approve a meals tax to raise $18 million for unspecified operational needs and capital projects of the county school system. The county does not say how the money will be spent. Instead, the county’s meals-tax advocacy website makes the disputable assertion that “without new revenue, Henrico will have to consider significant cuts to its public schools and other critical services.” Henrico officials do not say what they might cut, or by how much.

By contrast, Chesterfield will put three referenda before the people. The first will seek approval to issue $304 million in bonds to pay for extensive school renovations, while a second would issue $49 million in bonds to replace the county’s emergency communication system. The third referendum then asks voters to approve  the meals tax “for the sole purposes of funding capital projects which further the public safety and public education needs” of the county. Chesterfield residents can review the list of 10 public schools, two of which were built before World War II, that will be rehabilitated thanks to the tax. Bottom line: Chesterfield residents will know exactly what the tax money will be spent on.

Chesterfield officials did another smart thing: They didn’t underestimate the intelligence of voters. While meals tax money might be dedicated to capital projects, notes Stegmaier, who’s to say that other money previously allocated to capital projects wouldn’t be  pulled out and spent on something else — just like the state does with lottery profits supposedly dedicated to education? Another wrinkle: Even if the current board makes good on its promise, it cannot bind future boards to spending the money the same way.

Chesterfield took a two-tier approach to creating a lock box for the new tax revenue. First, the referendum specifically states that the tax is for “the sole purpose” of funding capital projects. Second, the annual cost of the capital projects is matched to the expected revenue stream from the sales tax, about $8 million. Once the county issues bonds, it will be committed to spending that money. The arrangement is not air tight, Stegmaier acknowledges, but there’s less room for hanky panky.

Henrico officials swear on the graves of their ancestors that the $18 million raised from the meals tax will be dedicated to public schools. But the statement is meaningless. The tax revenues will flow into the General Fund, from which the Board of Supervisors will allocate monies for the school system. Every year, the school allocation will come up for a vote. The current board may live up to its stated intention, but there is no guarantee that future boards will.

Finally, there is the issue of advocacy. Chesterfield officials have adopted a less strident tone in their official communications. The county website, Your Voice First Choice, explains the logic behind the meals tax but does not predict dire consequences, as Henrico’s website does, should voters reject the tax. Chesterfield notes simply that a negative vote would “draw away resources from other projects and county services.” Stegmaier does not appear in a video, as does his counterpart John Vithoulkas in the Henrico website, portraying the situation as a gun-to-the-head choice of raising the property tax or cutting services.

While Chesterfield’s approach seems far more taxpayer-friendly than Henrico’s, Stegmaier acknowledges that the county faces the same challenges as Henrico in dealing with swelling pension obligations and onerous Environmental Protection Agency regulations. The county’s pension liability could be $257 million and the Chesapeake Bay clean-up could cost another $200 million. “It could be $30 million a year for those two items,” he says.

Chesterfield has adopted a wait-and-see attitude before jacking up taxes to deal with those problems. As Stegmaier observes, the state has a plan to ramp up contributions, which could whittle down local liabilities. A post-Obama administration in Washington, D.C., could back off on the more onerous EPA regulations. And a revival of housing prices could bolster real-estate property tax revenues. Says Stegmaier: “We know the liabilities but there are still some unknowns out there.”

If I were a Chesterfield resident, I would make the same argument that I do about Henrico: The county should more aggressively apply online learning to K-12 education, adopt smart-city technologies and encourage more tax-efficient human settlement patterns as long-term strategies for driving down costs and bolstering the tax base. Don’t ask me to pay higher taxes until you have delved into those alternatives and found them lacking. That said, Chesterfield has handled the referendum issue far better than Henrico has. I’d still oppose the tax, but I wouldn’t be nearly as adamant about it.

Update: A modified version of this post has been published in Style Weekly.


Share this article



ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)



ADVERTISEMENT

(comments below)


Comments

26 responses to “Compare and Contrast: Chesterfield and Henrico on the Meals Tax”

  1. You did an especially good job on this – and you really did make the case as to a better way to “package” a tax increase.

    but then – you’d STILL oppose it?

    good god!

    are you saying that Chesterfield ALSO “did not delve into alternatives”?

    so you compliment Chesterfield and STILL slap them in the face?

    ok .. so if you are going to convince me – you have to show me what kind of approach you WOULD accept…

    what kind of info do you want to see and here is a key question.

    If costs ARE going up – fuel, salaries, pension costs, etc…

    how do you think those things should be handled?

    are you in favor of cutting employees – one for one to match price increases so that there is no tax increase?

    in your view of govt is inflation not allowed as a reason for a tax increase?

  2. let me make sure here..

    if Henrico GROWS they will take in more revenues…

    the question is how are increases , inflation, fuel/energy, salaries, pension costs handled – in a conservatively-operated county?

    to a certain extent Henrico is selling products to county residents – infrastructure, services and operation… the same that WalMart sells.

    when WalMart costs go up – they’ll pass them on to consumers.

    they can’t print money to cover the increases and neither can Henrico so what’s the answer for counties?

  3. DJRippert Avatar
    DJRippert

    ” … onerous Environmental Protection Agency regulations …”

    Gotta love Jim Bacon. He hates subsidies. But it’s quite fine for Richmond-area localities to defile the Chesapeake Bay watershed and hinder downstream locations from earning a living from the polluted bay.

    Suburban homeowners should pay the full measure of their location variable costs but if the EPA wants Henrico County taxpayers to pay for cleaning up the filth they spew into the watershed it’s onerous.

    1. If the clean-up costs amount to $200 million for Chesterfield, that’s onerous. Dictionary definition of onerous: “burdensome, oppressive, or troublesome; causing hardship.”

      Do you really want to argue that $200 million would not prove burdensome and a hardship?

      As for whether the EPA regulations are justified, I don’t know enough about them to make a judgment. They may be justified, even if they are onerous. Maybe they aren’t. It’s an issue worth looking into. You have no basis whatsoever for assuming that I oppose the regulations at this point in time. As for implying that I think “it’s quite fine for Richmond-area localities to defile the Chesapeake Bay watershed,” you really should be ashamed of yourself!

      1. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        Over a five year period, $200M represents 5.6% of Chesterfield’s 2013 general fund budget (without assuming any increase in that budget from 2013).

        Is that onerous? Not in my book.

        If you folks in the Richmond area didn’t want to have to pay for cleaning up the messes you’ve made then you shouldn’t have made the messes in the first place!

        As an aside, I am in full support of the $300M cost to clean up Accotink Creek (one mess of many) in Fairfax County. Will it cost me more in taxes? Of course it will. However, it is our mess and we damn well ought to clean it up.

        I’ll be ashamed of myself when you write that you support whatever additional taxes are required to clean up the Chesapeake Bay watershed in the Richmond area.

        Can I hear that support from you – whatever it takes?

        ##### crickets chirping ######

        1. wait a minute here..

          you are asking Jim to deal with issues that the ideology won’t or refuses to – everything, by God, has to be the fault of an onerous govt.

          that’s unfair of you.

          how in the world can Jim maintain a decent anti-govt rant if you keep messing him up with these green weenie details?

  4. is 200 billion worth of damage to other property owners downstream – “onerous”?

    why is requiring that you not damage others “onerous”?

    1. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      Oh LarryG – that doesn’t count! The unemployed oystermen, fishermen, guides, tackle shop operators, charter boat mates, cannery workers … they’re just “the little people”. Let them eat cake. I mean, they’ve never even been to the Country Club of Virginia (except, perhaps, to pull weeds). Spending 5% more of the Chesterfield General Fund for the net five years to stop destroying these people’s life would be …. well, onerous.

      1. I always thought it curious that when discussing cleaning up pollution – the govt was the enemy. As if there were no other property owners who were damaged by the pollution and asked the govt to help them.

        so everyone LOVES the Concept of Clean up the Bay … unless of course it’s the EPA telling us how to … then it’s evil govt…

        you can’t win with these guys… no matter how the dice roll – it comes up “bad bad govt”.

  5. [You did an especially good job on this – and you really did make the case as to a better way to “package” a tax increase. but then – you’d STILL oppose it?]

    I recall in an earlier piece by Jim that the objection was to adding another stream of revenue when we already have the mechanism in place to raise the revenue: property taxes. Property taxes are designed to be adjusted up or down as the situation dictates. Once this meals tax is in place it won’t go away and in a few years they will then raise the property tax and/or devise some other tax. Personally, I have no problem in having my property tax go up to support a worthwhile endeavor or suport a bond issue. Jim did a good job of distinguishing between Chesterfield and Henrico on this meals tax. I could support the Chesterfield effort with an increase in property taxes (not a meals tax). And I could be persuaded to support the Henrico meals tax at 4% if we were told exactly what it is was to be used for and it had an end-date (sunset).

    I stated before I did not appreciate the County executive’s tone–it was threatening. Who does he think he is? Obviously one who does not stand for election! Much like you, when you come at me with CAPS, I start tuning you out.

    And I certainly do not trust Henrico to not quietly move money around with in some sort general fund or short the school budget the amount taken in by the meals tax and use it for something else. I am, and will remain, forever skeptical.

    Conservatives are not anti-tax (or anti-government (those are the anarchists)) but speaking for myself, I do expect thrift. There is such a thing as living within your means. This applies to governments as well as families. This is not “Priority for Life” where you can have it all.

    As the economy improves, as it has, and will continue to do so, the county will find itself with additional revenue–maybe even those budget surpluses that we read about from time to time. And as I stated before, I’m betting on that future.

    I also bet that Walmart is more rigorous in managing their costs than Henrico, and that before they pass on costs to the consumer they do everything possible not do so. They can’t mismanage and then expect the taxpayers for a bail out (unless you’re a car manufacturer or a bank).

    Re retirement and pensions: I’m not against pensions, far from it. But you cannot continue to promise people something knowing in your heart-of-hearts that there is a damn good chance you won’t be able to deliver. County and state governments, as you stated, cannot print money. Grandfather the large majority of current employees (less than five years of service?), extend the retirement age, disallow double-dipping (can’t retire, collect pension, and then come back as a consultant; there has to be an off-set), and increase the amount people have to contribute to the fund. I wouldn’t want anyone working for Henrico to someday have to face what Detroit retired teachers and city employees are facing.

    1. Thank you, Viper, It’s nice to have someone respond to what I actually wrote — as opposed to making up all sorts of wild-assed stuff I never wrote and never thought!

      1. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        You should have either left the word onerous out of your otherwise fine article or you should have defended the use of that pejorative term in the article.

  6. honest issue on whether schools, govt should be funded SOLELY from property taxes or a range of taxes…. why is that problematic?

    what was it about the CA that was “threatening”?

    re: thrift – do you know in terms of thrift if Henrico is one of the more thrifty or one of the worst? why would you presume one or the other without knowing for sure?

    re: Walmart – Walmart has waste. they do deal with it… but to presume that a county which has waste does not – takes more than a “feeling”. .. or a pre-ordained conclusion without anything more than that….

    Henrico appears to be a well run county – not without opportunities to improve (just like Walmart) but a generic claim that they are not well run therefore don’t need more money is like saying Walmart should not raise prices because they have not worked hard enough to keep them low.

    need more than ideology.

    re: pensions – I don’t think anyone purposely promised more than they could deliver. The same problem has happened to private sector companies. In fact over 5000 companies have turned over their pension obligations to the PBGC…. taxpayers….

    it’s legitimate to ask/insist the county move to defined contribution plans but that’s a different issue than the meals tax.

    the problem with the Conservatives is they don’t one to solve one problem at a time. they want everything linked together and if you don’t solve everything at once, then nothing is approved…

    gridlock… that’s not governing.

  7. Things are not well south of the James regarding the meals tax nor they way the realtors are ganging up on the small mom and pop eateries in Chesterfield.

    BTW…. Looks like an update to your article is now in order. The Taxpayer knows that J probably did not let you know about this. Budget transparency and honest dialogue is what is required. We still get the same professional stonewall treatment.

    Here is J’s version of amateur hour south of the James River:
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQx4JoRtPhw&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZQx4JoRtPhw

    It does not matter what side of the James, any meals tax stinks… Ask Richmond Taxpayer.

    1. Thanks for pointing me to that video. I did not see it on the Chesterfield website, so I concluded — erroneously — that no such video had been made. My bad. I have amended the original post to eliminate the inaccuracy.

  8. One of the important issues in Va is the fact that Va is one of the few, if not the only state where the School Board does not have the authority to levy taxes.

    If they did – like most other states – the focus of tax increases would be not on the local county but on the schools.

    the other thing to be aware of when it comes to school budgets is that the Federal Govt DOES REQUIRE that title teacher positions be explicitly identified but you will not see that level of transparency with regard to SOL/SOQ positions – that are funded by the State.

    If the schools did with the rest of their budget the way they already have to identify where Federal Funds are spent – citizens could see where State money was spent for SOL/SOQ and where local money was spent – on which positions.

    Many tax hawks think the Federal funds are used to force the schools to do something. Mostly, the Federal funds go to fund education for at-risk kids but in addition they require than those teachers be identified (as to position) in the budget.

    no such rule applies to SOL/SOQ funding which would (if required) clearly identify what local taxation is spent on – things not required by the Feds nor the State.

    My assertion is that most people don’t want to know this. they are quite happy with whatever ideology they want to believe it and don’t really want real facts to affect their thinking.

  9. cbatchelor Avatar
    cbatchelor

    Jim,
    I found your analysis and comparison of the proposed meals taxes in Virginia’s Chesterfield and Henrico Counties to be well-written, thoughtful and informative. I agree with your conclusion (both citizens in both counties should vote no). I believe in Chesterfield the tax will not pass.

    Having looked over the county’s new website on the meals tax (http://yourvoicefirstchoice.com/), I am not as impressed with Chesterfield’s arguments as you are.

    I cheered aloud when I read where you said the counties “should more aggressively apply online learning to K-12 education, adopt smart-city technologies and encourage more tax-efficient human settlement patterns as long-term strategies for driving down costs and bolstering the tax base,” but, really, the question on these meals taxes is not spending.

    As you know, government is not a business. Chesterfield County leaders have tried hard to imply otherwise on their new website, but I know many of these people and seriously doubt that even they believe they’ve actually made a real connection between this meals tax and this project or that. The county leaders simply perceive the public buys these fallacious connections, so they are trying to sell their plan in those terms. I would say Henrico’s approach is more honest and clear. (Making it easier to vote no.)

    Ignore spending for now. That has been decided and, from what I have seen, in Chesterfield the need for more funds is real.

    The question here is, instead, what is the most sustainable, fair and just means of raising money to fund the local government? There are a lot of problems with real estate taxes. But, that’s the county’s only real alternative. The choice is, therefore, a new tax meals or an uptick in the real estate tax rate? Which is more fair? Which better serves the county as a whole, long- and short-term?

    Both counties makes the point that a meal taxes is not unusual for Virginia localities and Chesterfield is proposing 2 percent instead of 4 percent. So, it is reasonable to say it’s not as imperfect as other meal taxes, which when it comes to taxes, is something. (And around NOVA, Tidewater and even tourism-driven rural counties such as Bath and Nelson, tapping visitors with a meals tax does make at least a little sense. To put it nicely, the vast majority of Chesterfield’s few “tourists” aren’t coming to dine.)

    Here’s a case for property taxes (vs other types of taxation):
    http://taxfoundation.org/article/property-taxation-government-finance

    While the data is clear, carefully using the real estate tax is the best worst option for a county especially for a locality such as Chesterfield. Or, rather, a new meal tax is a worse option. (But, OK, not horrible.)

    If that is the case, why is the elected leadership in Chesterfield (not idiots, with a few exceptions) asking for the voters to consider it? How did they get here?

    The Tea Party-type ideologues have made detailed thinking in Chesterfield almost impossible, as they bring every discussion back to their one big idea and distract everyone from thinking about the things that need to be done. They have gummed up the political works in Chesterfield County with their simple-minded and contradictory views. Thus, the meal tax.

    I believe some elected leaders in the counties are privately hoping the meals tax vote will fail, thus forcing the boards to use the more fair, flexible and sustainable real estate tax. Anyone who cares about the county should hope so. If that happens, you and your Tea Party pals can focus more easily on questionable spending and poor planning, which absolutely does need to be addressed.

    1. I’m curious about your appraisal of the local Tea Party activists. They’re on the same side of the tax-increase issue as you. What’s the problem? Are they just too simplistic in their thinking? Do they take a just-say-no approach without making positive suggestions?

      I’m intrigued by the idea of eliminating the small, miscellaneous taxes and putting the full burden on the property tax. That would do two things: (1) Force local boards and councils to be more accountable, and (2) encourage local governments to pursue policies that will maximize property values, a financial discipline they sorely need.

  10. cbatchelor Avatar
    cbatchelor

    Thanks for the response.

    You express my concerns well saying the Tea Party-types “take a just-say-no approach without making positive suggestions.”

    I don’t like paying taxes. But, I especially dislike paying taxes when others are not paying their fair share, so while I’m not a Ron Paul supporter the idea of a more simple, flat tax approach is appealing. (I am pro-user fee, however, to offset some costs if used carefully. Reasonable fees can also help sort out those who just want to “toss an idea around” from those with a more serious proposal.)

    But, the “common sense” of the our not-so-friendly Tea Party doesn’t makes sense. For example, here a link that talks about how real estate taxes are more fair than many other ways to raise government revenues but how the public typically sees them as unfair.
    http://taxfoundation.org/blog/economists-and-fairness-local-property-taxes

    Saying “use common sense” is usually just an appeal to popular opinion and is often uninformed to the facts.

    1. well.. right off the bat:

      ” Most economists argue that if property taxes are well designed—that is, they tax land but not buildings, assess property transparently and simply, etc.—they are among the least economically damaging taxes available.”

      not the case….

      let me argue this a different way. Parents pay taxes on property that goes primarily to fund schools but on a per household basis – they come nowhere near paying the actual costs of schools. A median-priced home in a place like Fairfax would probably generate between a third and half of the actual cost to send a kid to school.

      where does the rest come from? it comes from folks who don’t have kids, singles, empty-nesters, and folks who never had kids.

      why? because it’s the duty of everyone to pay for public schools.

      for the folks who don’t have kids – is the property tax the most fair way to pay?

      Older folks on fixed income can be severely stretched by an ever increasing assessment/tax.

      Singles have trouble finding affordable housing because the “money” is in the upper tier housing that both builders and the county get more “profit” from.

      And further, you’ll find some counties more likely to approve age-restricted housing rather than low-income housing for people with kids.

      all of this – is driven by the costs and increasing costs of schools where instead of just core academic courses, there are a plethora of other “electives” and such and each one of them means another employee, another set of benefits for health insurance and a pension – a long term commitment of taxpayer funds.

      if schools primarily focused on core academic only – costs would not escalate near as much – increase population would bring increased kids to teach but also increased taxes. Inflation would still be present but not as significant.

      I’m not opposed to SOME electives – especially enough necessary to meet the diploma requirements but the question is what is enough and what is too much?

      The state of Va funds ONLY the SOQ/SOLs and the rest is left to the locality – which is discretionary. Most schools like Henrico are more than half-funded by local taxes for things that are not mandatory.

      what’s a reasonable balance in terms of diversity of courses – when you consider each different course takes another teacher usually especially in an age where you can get dozens of different languages via products like Rosetta Stone and other online resources?

      The costs of schools impacts counties as well as county residents of modest means in adverse ways that I think would be less adverse or at least better balanced with a meals or other consumption-based taxes.

      we’re so messed up on our schools anyway – as we try to do core-academic on the cheap in order to serve up the wider variety of courses that parents and kids want – but then we graduate “weak” on core academics/critical thinking compared to other OECD countries – and this is not some bogus comparisons – our colleges, our companies and our armed services are all saying that kids are showing up – unprepared for the compentencies the job requires.

      My problem with the Tea Party is that too many of them seem virulently anti-govt and they tend to have other disaffected in their ranks including racists.they do not seem to have a positive agenda… they’re opposed to many agencies of the govt because that agency is not explicitly “articulated” in the Constitution.. I’m talking NASA, FDA, NTSB, FDIC, etc… that “kind” of “thinking” NOT!.

      Those kinds of folks not sit on our local planning commission and they oppose county libraries on the grounds that most people now use the internet. When it’s pointed out that many in the rural areas don’t have it they say put the internet out in the rural areas – but remember these are the very same folks who are opposed to the Federal govt “transferring” money for stuff like “Obama Phones”…. etc… their message is often self-contradictory …..

  11. The question in my mind is – is the meals tax proposal essentially to pay for school costs?

    I would note that virtually every state but Virginia not only has elected school boards but those boards levy taxes separate from the county – and well over 80% of them levy only property taxes.

    It sort of feels like the energy against the meals tax – acts like the issue is non-school county spending – as opposed to paying for burgeoning school costs.

    If you look at most counties – the number of schools employees is 3-4 times the number of county employees.

    If someone has a problem with the way the county is spending money then that should be the issue but here it appears that schools are the issue but the anti-tax folks want to make county spending the issue.

    so in the end – this is a little on the disingenuous side because it’s really more ideological than it is specific to the reasons for the taxes and spending.

    Jim Bacon and the Tea Party folks make a big deal about the unfunded pension liabilities – but still seemingly oppose efforts to pay them down and get on a more responsible footing – as if they could do this instead by cutting county services – in effect – to fund the school pensions.

    that’s the problem now days with the critics – it’s not really a cogent approach. It’s more of an ideological blame game that seeks to tell govt to fix the spending… i.e. make the costs go away… no matter if it’s not really a reasonable short-term option. Pensions are not optional. You can’t just say ..no more pension costs… well you can say that.. but then you do look like a tea party type.

    1. cbatchelor Avatar
      cbatchelor

      If you want to get an understanding of why Chesterfield County’s website on the meal tax (http://yourvoicefirstchoice.com/) took the odd approach it did, read larryg’ absurd post above.

      He starts this post saying his question “is the meals tax proposal essentially to pay for school costs?” (According to the website, yes.) Then he runs off the road, into the grass for a few paragraphs and finish with useless handwringing about government spending, offering no specifics about what might be changed, then saying “that’s the problem now days with the critics – it’s not really a cogent approach…. tell govt to fix the spending… i.e. make the costs go away… no matter if it’s not really a reasonable short-term option,” Good point. Larry! For example, you.

      Making the costs go away is not a short term problem or a long term problem. It’s not going to happen. Ever.

      Nevertheless, for Larry and others the new county website (as does Bacon’s interview with the county’s chief executive) attempts to show that costs have been contained. (Which is sadly not as true as it could be. There have been cuts, but Chesterfield’s elected leaders had a real opportunity to get a handle on many majors costs that come from poor planning with a new comp plan and blew it big time.*)

      larryg, Jim Bacon and Chesterfield County’s new website and most everyone else are all are focusing whether the government needs this money. That question has been asked and answered, the answer is yes. That’s not the issue, however. The real question is this new (very low! everyone does it!) meals tax the best way to raise these needed funds. And the answer is no.

      —–
      *And as if on cue, I read in the TD this morning that Chesterfield County’s Board of Supervisors is going to take up the issue of proffers one more time.

      One might wonder what is going to be proposed. Could it be that staff has come up with a way to not only allow but encourage infill construction where schools, roads, fire & police, retails, power, water and sewer are already in place and the real estate taxes on new homes and businesses in these areas would actually be a net positive to the county’s budget, while at the same time developments large and small in the unimproved rural areas would have to pay impact fees? Ya think, maybe?

      If they did that, and then adjusted the real estate tax rate where homeowners were paying the same amount to run their local government services that they were paying before the lower assessments hit (since, ya know, there is zero connection between real estate values and the cost to run the governments just as there is not a connection between meals eaten out and schools), maybe the not only would costs be lower, but the community would be, ya know, a better place to live as well?

      Ya think? Maybe? Nah.

      http://www.timesdispatch.com/news/local/chesterfield/chesterfield-lawmakers-to-discuss-proffers-again/article_8bafde24-654d-5e64-8545-180c4c5538ff.html)

      1. re: ” larryg, Jim Bacon and Chesterfield County’s new website and most everyone else are all are focusing whether the government needs this money. That question has been asked and answered, the answer is yes. That’s not the issue, however. The real question is this new (very low! everyone does it!) meals tax the best way to raise these needed funds. And the answer is no.”

        I guess this goes to tax policy and the relative merits of taxing property, income or consumption or something else.

        that would be a meaty issue …

        folks might be interested that New Hampshire is one of two states that does not have an income tax nor a sales tax.

        interesting site:

        http://www.kiplinger.com/tool/retirement/T055-S001-state-by-state-guide-to-taxes-on-retirees/index.php

        so how does New Hampshire funds schools?

        property tax – a significant property tax – two, in fact. One a the local level then an additional state levy to fund core priorities at the state level.

        What would happen to schools in a place like Henrico – if there was no state income or sales tax? what would happen to retirees on fixed incomes? the point of asking this – is to illustrate how a more diverse tax structure spreads the burden or to put it another way keeps from putting a single-tax burden that could affect people disportionately.

        It would be an interesting discussion to have in the context of an effort to ADD another kind of tax – a meals tax.

  12. [Henrico appears to be a well run county – not without opportunities to improve (just like Walmart) but a generic claim that they are not well run therefore don’t need more money is like saying Walmart should not raise prices because they have not worked hard enough to keep them low.]

    You keep making these big leaps. There are no generic claims being made that Henrico is well-run (or not). There is no pleasing you. We basically support an increase in taxes, the property tax, but not the creation of yet another funding source (the meals tax).

    [for the folks who don’t have kids – is the property tax the most fair way to pay?] But it’s not fair? As I said there, is no pleasing you. I’m an “empty-nester” and I have no problem paying my property taxes to support the school budget. It it was about fairness then I shouldn’t be paying at all. Let those people with children pay the taxes. You show up with a kid, they hand you a bill (sounds like private schooling now!) But this is where I choose to live and with that come community responsibilities, which is paying your taxes to support the schools. I’m not looking for something “painless” or for someone else to pay them (such as unsuspecting folks from out of town). I want to see more transparency on costs. BTW, I’d like to see the study that states other-than-county-residents would be paying 60% of the meals tax.

    [Pensions are not optional. You can’t just say ..no more pension costs… well you can say that.. but then you do look like a tea party type.] Has anyone here said no more pension costs? Nope, but there you are again, exaggerating. What has been said that current pension system needs to be looked at critically so that people receive what they have planned that they have planned around.

    [My problem with the Tea Party is that too many of them seem virulently anti-govt and they tend to have other disaffected in their ranks including racists.] “Virulent anti-govt” and “racists”? How many Tea-Party people do you know? What are you doing, reading off MSNBC talking points? Too bad there isn’t an ignore feature on this blog, because I’d be using it on you after that remark.

  13. [Henrico appears to be a well run county –….
    You keep making these big leaps. There are no generic claims being made that Henrico is well-run (or not). There is no pleasing you. We basically support an increase in taxes, the property tax, but not the creation of yet another funding source (the meals tax).

    no.. some here are saying that tax increases are not justified until they demonstrate they’ve squeezed all the fat and waste out. Jim was wondering why they have a PR staff…… You are the first one I’ve heard say that you’re okay with a tax increase. you say “we”.. who is “we”?

    “[for the folks who don’t have kids – is the property tax the most fair way to pay?] But it’s not fair? As I said there, is no pleasing you.

    I asked if the property tax was as fair to entry-level singles and empty-nesters on fixed income.

    I’m an “empty-nester” and I have no problem paying my property taxes to support the school budget.

    quite a few seniors are on modest fixed incomes. they actually leave their homes in NoVa and move to cheaper counties south.

    ” It it was about fairness then I shouldn’t be paying at all. Let those people with children pay the taxes. ”

    Again, I EXPLICITLY said it was the duty of ALL to pay to provide public education – the question is how much and for what things.

    “You show up with a kid, they hand you a bill (sounds like private schooling now!)”

    nope. you show up with kid and core academic curricula and electives necessary for diploma are “free” – taxpayer-provided. If you want more than that (like in many OECD countries) there are extra fees for extra things.

    ” But this is where I choose to live and with that come community responsibilities, which is paying your taxes to support the schools. I’m not looking for something “painless” or for someone else to pay them (such as unsuspecting folks from out of town). I want to see more transparency on costs. BTW, I’d like to see the study that states other-than-county-residents would be paying 60% of the meals tax.”

    do you feel “unsuspecting” when you travel and eat at other jurisdictions when they have meal and accommodation taxes? A good number of counties in Va and other have a meals tax you know.

    you say you want transparency in costs – you don’t have that right now for money spent in schools. The state only funds (and requires local match) for SOQ/SOL positions – these are positions directly related to core academic disciplines. Do you know what subjects taught in Henrico and paid for with discretionary local tax money? Do you know for the addition needed even if provided via property taxes – what extra costs are? Do you know if the money would be going to pay down pensions or is it for more teachers?

    [Pensions are not optional. Has anyone here said no more pension costs? Nope, but there you are again, exaggerating. What has been said that current pension system needs to be looked at critically so that people receive what they have planned that they have planned around. – have you looked at it “critically” enough so that you know that the tax increase is justified for what purposes?

    [My problem with the Tea Party is that too many of them seem virulently anti-govt and they tend to have other disaffected in their ranks including racists.] “Virulent anti-govt” and “racists”? How many Tea-Party people do you know? What are you doing, reading off MSNBC talking points? Too bad there isn’t an ignore feature on this blog, because I’d be using it on you after that remark.

    I’m quite familiar with them guy. I usually watch FOX News (as well as MSNBC). Every night I see these guys – every night. I now their positions quite well and there is a good reason why some consider at least a good number of them to be whacko birds (in addition to birthers, racists, ). Do you think Tea Party people support tax increases for schools in Henrico? I bet they don’t . Many of them do not support the concept of public schools or many other functions of govt that many do.

    You are FREE to IGNORE.. you don’t need a special feature. It’s called a finger and mouse…. I can tutor you if you need.

  14. re: “I’m an “empty-nester” and I have no problem paying my property taxes to support the school budget.”

    I’ve not heard anyone else who is opposed to the meals tax say they are fine with the equivalent amount tacked on to the property tax.

    Only you and if that were the actual case – why would there be any controversy… the anti-meal tax folks would generate the number of cents
    increase in property tax and make that part of their advocacy….

    that’s a forward path that would convince your leaders that it’s not about the money just the tax.

    now look at the anti-meals-tax arguments – is that what they are saying?

    re: ” [Pensions are not optional. Has anyone here said no more pension costs? Nope, but there you are again, exaggerating. What has been said that current pension system needs to be looked at critically so that people receive what they have planned that they have planned around. -..

    where are the specifics in your anti-tax advocacy?

    do you make the case that pensions need to be addressed as a primary reason for why taxes need to be increased?

    I’ve not seen that in the anti-tax advocacy.

    right now you have unfunded liabilities – money that you owe right now that you either have to pay or you need to cut 18 million in positions (about 300) and re-direct that money to catch up the pensions…..

    is that part of the anti-tax advocacy?

    it’s not me that can’t be pleased…. it’s the anti meals-tax folks….who seem to not want to pay costs they already owe nor deal with the core reasons why
    tax increases are needed.

    Henrico is one of but 7 AAA counties in Va. That’s potent evidence that they are a well run county – financially.

    It says nothing about priorities for spending which is a political issue.

    they have a demonstrated to pay the incurred costs – including their health care and pension liabilities that ARE associated with how many career employees they have. They compare well to other counties in terms of employees per county residents as far as I can tell.

    these costs will continue to increase as long as they continue to have as many employees as they have – health care and pensions costs continue to go up even if you only replace retiring employees.

    the only way to lower costs is to cut employees or hire new ones with less benefits and less generous pensions, etc.

    I see none of this level of specificity in the anti-tax folks… basically they want the county to make those decisions – BUT they don’t want their services cut including the width and breadth of school offerings.

    there is no way for the county to accomplish this without some indication from taxpayers as to what they are willing to do without – and the opponents have yet to make that case…

    My view is that school costs are the driver for these costs and that sooner or later people are going to have to decide what they can do without and one way to do that is to put fees on services that are not mandatory for SOLs/SOQs and graduation. Then people CAN, as individuals, make those judgements rather than putting the county in the position of making cuts on arbitrary basis such as just cutting the most expensive optional services – which parents may well be willing to pay for … etc…

    What I advocate VIPER in issues like this is something more than a sound-bite approach to anti-tax advocacy. If you want taxes cut/reduced/ curtailed, you have to get in the game of deciding what services to cut… and not play these really inane “starve the beast” games the Tea party seems to like.

Leave a Reply