COMMENTS ON A SUSTAINABLE FUTURE SKETCH

The ‘Sketch’ posted 15 March 2010 generated over 40 comments to date. As a former student Emailed: “I hope they are having fun because they have not added much to the prospect of evolving sustainable human settlement patterns.”

At the urging of several who responded directly, EMR provides these additional observations on the topic:

The comments on “A Sustainable Future Sketch Process” were frightening and at the same time reassuring.

They were frightening because they demonstrate the how far some citizens are from understanding the parameters of functional settlement patterns. Geographic Illiteracy, Spacial Obliviousness, Developmental Topographic Disorientation – what ever one calls it – has a terrible collective impact on the future of civilization.

They are reassuring because they demonstrate that the organization and content of TRILO-G focuses on the right issues.

Volume I of TRILO-G (the first five PARTs) addresses the reasons why citizens do not yet understand the importance of human settlement patterns. The comments on the Sketch highlight the need for a new Conceptual Framework to guide the use and management of land. (THE USE AND MANAGEMENT OF LAND – PART FOUR of TRILO-G)

Three realities spelled out in PART FOUR are not yet well recognized:

1. There is a profound difference between land and land use patterns suitable for Urban use (serving the daily needs of 95 percent of the population and covering a maximum of 5 percent of the land area) and land and land use patterns suitable for NonUrban use (serving the needs of 100 percent of the population but directly involving the daily activities of 5 percent of the population and occupying 95 percent of the land area).

2. The Use and Management of land is different from the ownership of land for both Urban and NonUrban activities.

3. There are many rational choices for land ownership beyond ‘private’ and ‘public.’

EMR will not try to address all the misunderstandings illustrated by the comments but will focus on four topics:

Detroit, Land Speculation, Growth Projections, Settlement Pattern Choices and Commuting.

DETROIT

Had commentors bothered to read what Dave Bing and others are actually doing in Detroit – including support for Urban Agriculture – they would know that what is being proposed and attempted in Detroit is similar to what EMR has advocated for over two decades. Note that in the original Sketch post there is reference to ‘Subdivision Recycling’ and to ‘Parcel Consolidation’ (which includes Parcel Reconsolidation). In the mid 80’s SYNERGY clients were implementing these tactics to increase the flux of Urban activity where that was logical and remove Urban land uses where that made sense.

Beyond the MainStream Media babble concerning Detroit, there is an important issue that may or may not be adequately addressed in the strategies for a new Greater Detroit Core for the Detroit / Windsor NUR:

Are the changes in human settlement pattern resulting in Balance and Critical Mass necessary to support both Urban and NonUrban economic, social and physical interrelationship upon which a sustainable society must be based?

Is Balance and Critical Mass being addressed for each of the organic components of human settlement pattern?

In other words, will the result of Subdivision Recycling and Parcel Reconsolidation be functional human settlement patterns or just a hodgepodge checkerboard of land uses created by removal of derelict buildings? The 50,000 foot perspective noted in THE USE AND MANAGEMENT OF LAND is a place to start to get an answer to this question.

By the way, ‘farmland lost’ is NOT farmland lost FOREVER. Some of the best land for agriculture has been covered with dysfunctionally low density Urban land uses and can and should be recycled. Urban agriculture programs are demonstrating this in North America, the Carribean, Europe and Asia.

LAND SPECULATION

AZA who commented on the WSH, WL post was taking good notes at one of EMR’s lectures:

If a speculator pays market value for vacant and or underutilized land and pays the carrying costs (e.g. receives no cash flow from the land) for 17 years in the average case the Net Present Value (NVP) of the investment is ZERO when inflation is factored in. That is ZERO $. LAND SPECULATION DOES NOT PAY.

The 17 year parameter is based on actual experience in the Northern Part of Virginia over the period 1960 to 2000. The result is the same if one buys the land with borrowed funds and pays interest or if they buy the land for cash and Alternative Investment Opportunity is applied to determine NPV. If the land generates income during the holding period, that cash flow extends the time until NPV goes to Zero. A good rule of thumb is when buying vacant land to have a three year backdoor al all times.

Over time, interest eats speculators lunch. Amateurs do not know this and agents who profit from real estate churn will never disclose it.

If all speculatively held vacant and underutilized land (for which there will NEVER be a market due to the vast overbuild for Urban uses at functional patterns and densities) was put on the market at the same time, the price of vacant and underutilized land would fall.

It would likely fall to the point that it would be feasible to but it for extensive (aka, NonUrban) land uses. That is essentially what is happening in Detroit for high value crops and, as EMR noted four years ago, in selected areas in the Heartland.

The fact that paying the full cost of Urban services would help end land speculation is reason why speculators attacked Henry George with such vehemence and still do to this day.

A major housing downturn (See WSH, WL) is just what is needed to bring land speculation into perspective. The problem is that loss of dwelling values is now on course to Collapse the economy and destroy the economic foundations for millions of Households who had no idea they were contributing to Collapse.

GROWTH (DECLINE) PROJECTIONS

In the comments following the Sketch post, Larry G said:

“There are two big issues with growth.

“1. – The first is how do you predict growth?

“about the only thing I have seen is you look at the past 10 years and then assume the next 10 will be similar. That seems pretty dumb to me …”

There are a number of BIG potential errors generated by ten year projections keyed to the census. For example.

In the early 70s EMR managed a study of the Balto / Wash Corridor as a consultant to Wash COG and Balto COG (a joint Agency study). (Each COG represented two of the 4 key municipal jurisdictions in the Corridor.) The team was amazed to fine that based on the 1950 to 1960 growth rate, the 1960 to 1970 growth projection had been pegged by the two Agencies at ‘X.’ However, the actual growth from 1960 t0 1970 was 1 / 7th of X. Being off by a factor of 7 can have BIG consequences.

An interesting footnote: The Planned New Community of Columbia, MD is in the Balto – Wash Corridor and the economic model was based on the Balto COG projection. Instead of getting ‘Y’ percent of the ‘X’ growth, it got 8 Y percent of 1 / 7 X and came out ahead of projection. Most of the Corridor growth happened in Columbia – a 13,000 acre patch of the 200,000 + / – acre Corridor. This was an early illustration for EMR of the vast amount of the vacant and underutilized land within 25 miles of the Centroid of major Urban agglomerations.

To avoid going off track, the Sketch EMR posted suggests an ANNUAL review of the MegaRegional numbers based on what is actually happening. There are a number of indicators that can be monitored to be sure Agencies are preparing for the right parameters.

“2. – the second is even harder. Let’s assume that you correctly predict a certain amount of growth.

“Now tell me where that growth will allocate itself geographically – honest injun – no handwaving or rope-a-dope theories.. just lay it out in plain English.”

If the projection is made by professionals who know the entire Region and have no bias (such as having consulting contracts with jurisdictions that are governed by ‘pro-growth’ Agencies), past experience and alternative scenarios – for example in the above example, Jim Rouse was offering a far better product that any other developer in the Balto – Wash Corridor – plus annual monitoring, the projections as to location can be very close to what actually happens.

In the years ahead there is the probability of loss of population and Jobs for those Communities that do not take actions to evolve Balance and Critical Mass – as in Detroit and many other places that get less publicity.

“The Fredericksburg area is project to DOUBLE in population in the next 30 years. Where will it allocate itself geographically?”

First the big picture:

If one adds up all the municipal / SubRegion projections (in the case of VA, the PDC numbers) across the MegaRegion they will find FAR more growth projected than is projected at the Regional scale. If Greater Fredericksburg doubles, other SubRegions will grow less than projected and / or others will shrink.

The Wash COG SubRegional projections have been quite accurate over the past three decades. The staff has wisely expanded the analysis area beyond the COG jurisdictions borders. If they had included the entire National Capital SubRegion of the Washington-Baltimore NUR in each analysis, the projections would have been right on. The distribution of jobs and households by municipal jurisdiction, however, has varied widely.

On the SubRegional scale:

If Greater Fredericksburg grows by 50%, 100% or 200% over the next 30 years there is plenty vacant and underutilized land to accommodate that growth ON LESS LAND THAN IS NOW URBANIZED. The bigger issue is to maintain Balance and Critical Mass.

SETTLEMENT PATTERN CHOICES AND COMMUTING

As EMR noted In the WSH, WL comments, EMR will not add additional comments on the WSH, WL string. Larry posted the following to which EMR will respond here:

“I think part of the job here is to understand why 300,000 people live in the Fredericksburg Area and at least 50% of those who work – commute 100 miles a day round trip if [because] the option of having a nice place to live for the same amount of money existed [does not exist] in NoVa.”

The first ‘job’ is for Larry to understand that these ‘100 mile commuters’ work AND LIVE in the Northern Part of Virginia, not somewhere else. SubRegions and Regions are determined by the pattern of economic, social and physical activity.

“Folks do not commute 100 miles a day – every day because they misunderstand their options – right?”

In fact they do. They do that because they misunderstand their options and because of what they believe to be the facts are in reality Myths that are spelled out in The Shape of the Future (SotF). The HANDBOOK process has an exercise on over coming Myths.

Why they are wrong is a complex issue and one of the reasons SotF was written. As noted below, there is an entire industry that profits from perpetuating Myths so they can avoid paying (or passing) on the total cost of their actions – they are called ‘externalities.’ These externalities turn up miles away – in the Chesapeake Bay and in the federal budget for “commuter assistance.”

“One must assume that most of them have made the tradeoff calculations correctly.”

Sorry, they do not. And the problem did not start in 1980 or in 2003. For 90 years land owners, developers and builders have relied on subsidies and not having to pay the full cost of their actions. These Enterprises make more money in the short term if they perpetuate the Myths. AND after they move in, the homeowners EVERY DAY THEY LIVE IN A WSH, WL also enjoy subsides paid for by those who have chosen more sustainable settlement patterns.

“Thousands of them drive 5 miles or less to a bus or van – and they do this every day 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year – for something they want and consider worth the sacrifice.”

Well that “sacrifice” by a small minority of the workers in the NUR is costing the majority in the NUR (8 plus million of them) AND all tax payers in the US of A a lot of money. If the minority had to pay the full cost of the services they would make different choices.

“If the only answer to this is to make this option more expensive…”

As in ‘pay the full cost’…

“… it still won’t change how people feel about the appeal of living 50 miles from where they work.”

That is doubtful. EMR’s position is that on a level playing field a well informed buyer will question and abandon the Myths that drive dysfunctional human settlement patterns.

Recall that the only way one can help commuters is to help them become non-commuters. See BRZ Column # 92 “Solving the Commuter Problem” 5 Feb 2007 concerning the expansion of VRE.

Recall also that in any Alpha Community (inside the Clear Edge around the Core of the Region or outside the Clear Edge there will always be SOME who ‘commute.’ Commuting, however is not a sustainable home – work relationship for a significant percentage of the population in any Alpha Community.

“I think you have to come at this problem accepting that reality.”

NOW YOU ARE TALKING!

“Here’s an essential truth – People can live like Groveton lives – on a large lot with well/septic without traffic noise or sketchy characters in the neighborhood and schools that give their kids a genuine opportunity to grow up with a good education for 2/3 to 3/4 less than it costs Groveton if they are willing to commute 8 times further a day than Groveton.”

Let us leave Groveton out of this. Both Jim Bacon and EMR agree that Groveton and others who have worked hard and done well should be able to live where and how they choose, as long as they pay the full cost of their decisions – including ALL externalities.

As EMR has noted repeatedly, most of those who live in Groveton’s zip code could not (or would not choose to live there) if they had to pay the full cost of their location choice. See The 10X Rule.

“Why would folks do that?

Because of Geographic Illiteracy? Because of Spacial Obliviousness engendered by Autonomobile Myths? Because of Developmental Topographic Disorientation?

“until we understand why and deal with it on some level other than financial punishment …”

Not ‘punishment’, just paying their fair share.

“… of those who engage in it.. I don’t think we are anywhere close to [support for F] fundamental [T] transformation because people – have to want the solution rather than have it imposed on them.”

And the longer pandering politicians and Business-As-Usual advocates can keep citizens from understanding reality, the longer they will think something is being ‘imposed.’

“Either you think most of these folks are just plain stupid and don’t realize how dumb they are in choosing their commute – or… they do know and there are no better options for them (in their minds).”

Ah “BETTER OPTIONS”!

THAT is a BIG part of the answer. Where folks do have BETTER OPTIONS they take them. That is way those better located Units sell for so much more.

But again, there is a whole industry that makes more profit in a shorter time by perpetuating Myths and dysfunctional human settlement patterns that consume vastly more land than is necessary for quality human habitations because the Enterprises do not pay full cost of their actions. These Enterprises, of course, share the profits with governance practitioners through political contributions and support Institutions to perpetuate the dysfunctional processes. What Prof. Lucy call the Tyranny of Easy Development Decisions.

That is why the creative use of Private Transfer Fees might be a good idea to encourage more functional settlement patterns and reward developers and builders for making the right decision without having to resort to bribes and subsides.

EMR


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Comments

56 responses to “COMMENTS ON A SUSTAINABLE FUTURE SKETCH”

  1. Not Ed Risse Avatar
    Not Ed Risse

    Henry George is irrelevant when exclusionary zoning prevents higher density housing that an otherwise free market would support and build.

    Most of the dysfunction you decry is the result of government control of land use, not the decisions of ill informed consumers or speculative developers.

  2. Larry G Avatar

    I was not holding Groveton up as a bad example but rather the opposite.

    People envy his situation and long for something comparable.

    People live in the Fredericksburg Area on large lots with well & septic.. creeks and horses and no sketchy characters and decent schools (though not as good as Fairfax) and they get this for 1/4 or less of what that same situation costs folks who live where Groveton lives.

    They commute the 100 miles a day to get what Groveton has.

    I think it's important to understand why people do this especially if one thinks this is a wrong choice and they intend to offer these folks "better" choices – not only the offerers idea of "better" but also the buyer ….. because.. the "why" behind why folks drive 100 miles a day is POTENT and you won't simply talk them out of it.

    and that means .. no matter how many planning ideas are cooked up – people are still going to commute unless and until they are convinced that a better option does exist.

    I think if you interviewed the 100-mile a day folks – that most of them would agree that their work/home situation IS..DYSFUNCTIONAL but they're not going to live in a 1000 square foot hovel with strange characters hanging out on the streets and schools where their kids are not safe and can't learn.

    these are POWERFUL influences and anyone who would seek to dismiss them as bad logic on the part of the practitioners might just have a thing or two more to learn.. before reaching ultimate karma black belt status in Functional Settlement Planning.

    eh?

  3. Larry G Avatar

    .

  4. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    As oyster war heats up, Maryland cracks down on poachers

  5. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    most of them would agree that their work/home situation IS..DYSFUNCTIONAL, but not as dysfunctional as the alternative.

    RH

  6. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "…(serving the needs of 100 percent of the population but directly involving the daily activities of 5 percent of the population and occupying 95 percent of the land area)."

    ================================

    What does that say about the proper distribution of costs?

    If 95% of the land area is supporting 100% of the population, what justification is there for promoting land uses that earn, on average, only $25 per acre?

    When open space is recognized for its value and earns enough to justify keeping it, then EMR can stop fretting about what is happening to it.

    RH

  7. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "The Use and Management of land is different from the ownership of land for both Urban and NonUrban activities."

    Some people would say that is a particularly Communist point of view.

    I would say that management and control implies part ownership. Those that own the property have a right to expect some return on theri investment. The problem with today's situation is that those than manage and control the use of the land are not maing any investment: they expect all of that to come from the titular owners. Those owners expect a return on their investment, and they have the right not to have their investment diminished by those who manage and control its use.

    RH

  8. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "…including support for Urban Agriculture – they would know that what is being proposed and attempted in Detroit is similar to what EMR has advocated for over two decades. "

    How do you propose to suupport urban aqgriculture and achieve placing 95% of the population on 5% of the land?

    Agriculture is barely profitable on land that costs $3000 an acre. What justification can there be for using valuable urban land for such a use?

    =========================

    Demolishing Density in Detroit: Can Farming Save the Motor City?

    …Detroit mayor Dave Bing is drafting plans starve his city down to a manageable size. ….Bing and his staff will pick "winners and losers" amongst the city's neighborhoods and seek to resettle residents from the losers, those deemed most unlivable. …….If we can incentivize some of those folks that are in those desolate areas, they can get a better situation" in one of the remaining neighborhoods with schools and buses. …………Bing plans to shrink the occupied portions further by tearing down another 10,000 buildings. ………And what will Bing do with all of that empty space? Turn over as many as 10,000 acres to John Hantz to farm….In exchange, all he's [Hantz]asking for is free tax-delinquent land and tax breaks on agriculture.

    ============================

    Lets be clear about this, Hantz sounds more like a develper than a farmer.

    It does not say that Hantz is going to buy that land, ut he expects is costs to be below $3000 an acre. That land is presently vacant lots: is Hantz going to plow under the streets? Is he going to leave the underground infrastructure in place?

    Imagine getting free land with irrigation supply in place, and tax breaks for your business. Even I could make money on that basis.

    Hantz promises to create "hundreds" of green jobs. That is a fraction of the jobs that land supported previously, and agricultural jobbs will pay a fraction as much money.

    His plan is a joke.

    ================================

    "…. metropolitan "Detroit" and its suburbs still contain 4.4 million people, more than metropolitan Phoenix, San Francisco or Seattle. And while Detroit may be shrinking in area, "Detroit" is doing anything but.

    This fact, which is so often absent from reports about the city's plight, fatally undermines Bing's best intentions. "

    ==========================

    http://www.fastcompany.com/1571975/farming-the-city-in-order-to-save-it-demolishing-density-in-detroit

    RH

  9. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "By the way, ‘farmland lost’ is NOT farmland lost FOREVER. Some of the best land for agriculture has been covered with dysfunctionally low density Urban land uses and can and should be recycled. "

    =================================

    That land, after recycling is going to have to cost less than $3000 an acre or it will not be usable for agriculture.

    It may have been the best land for agriculture once, but after you remove the derlict buildings, dig out and refill the foundations, you may still have to do a ridiculous aqmount of soil remediation to make this work.

    Presumably we will be doing this at the same time we are costructing those square mile concrete platforms opver the transit stops for actual people to live on.

    The jusxtaposition of these two ideas suggests how schizophrenic the ideas of popularized land planning have become.

    Here is a better idea: sell the land to the highest bidder, with a gurantee that he can pretend it is actually his land for 40 years. During that time he can do as he pleases with it.

    At the end of that time, the new uses are compared to the previous zoning. I fthe new uses are better, the land can be rezoned, and if not it reverts to previous zoning and the new use is deemed nonconforming.

    RH

  10. Larry G Avatar

    I don't agree with virtually any of the tripe that RH is posting here – as usual.

    But an important point – not addressed – regardless of whether you are hard over on RH's view or on other side with EMR is that

    we seem to look at this as if it is a static concept…

    Detroit has shrunk. It did not shrink over night – it's a continuum just as it works the other way where places grow and yet we don't really have a dynamic concept for this.

    I cite Washington now "growing" to Fort Belvoir and Quantico and the settlement pattern folks going bonkers over the fact that the current commuting infrastructure "does not go there".

    So what would you do?

    Would you have the govt go buy up Tysons Corner and move Belvoir and Quantico to that location and plant soy beans where they are now located ?

    Same deal with Detroit – going the other way…

    are they looking ahead to how much more it might shrink and is there a dynamic plan ?

    I had questioned earlier how we know where an area will "grow" geographically. and I'm not sure EMR gave a good answer.

    but the same question goes about "shrinking". How do you decide what parts of Detroit "built environment" will shrink or is it a piecemeal process much like the "saving land" conservation that we see in Va where there is no rhyme or reason to WHERE we save land (or not).

  11. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "If a speculator pays market value for vacant and or underutilized land and pays the carrying costs (e.g. receives no cash flow from the land) for 17 years in the average case the Net Present Value (NVP) of the investment is ZERO when inflation is factored in. That is ZERO $. LAND SPECULATION DOES NOT PAY."

    ===========================

    Land speculation does not always pay, but there are a lot of land speculators who will be surprised to learn that.

    If there is no money in land speculation, why does EMR worry about speculators, let alone have such distate for their short term profits?

    It is even worse than EMR describes if the owner tries to farm the land. After 17 years he has made zero on the land and (probably) -5% or so on the farming.

    EMR's predictions don't bode so well for Bing and Hantz, unless they win the speculation lottery.

    RH

  12. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Detroit has shrunk.

    ==========================

    Detroit metropolitan area is getting larger and still has over 4.4 million people.

    Not tripe, fact. It is unrealistic to disgree with facts.

    RH

  13. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I cite Washington now "growing" to Fort Belvoir …

    =============================

    Washington is shrinking the same way Detroit is shrinking. Jobs in the DC part of "Washington" are fewer and pay less than they did ten or twenty years ago.

    RH

  14. Larry G Avatar

    if Washington is shrinking then why all the blather about "congestion" and a lack of roads?

    let's say for the sake of argument that is IS shrinking but at the same time it's changing geographically…

    not like a balloon but more like a bean bag.

  15. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Would you have the govt go buy up Tysons Corner and move Belvoir and Quantico to that location and plant soy beans where they are now located ?

    ==================================

    You could do that, but don't plan on making any money on the soybeans.

    On the other hand, those soybeans would be very profitable if you split the money you would make speculating on Tyson's.

    Since you cna't have one without the other it is fair to split the profits.

    RH

  16. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Normally when you save, you save for some stated, measurable goal.

    Land is the only thing we seem to want to save for the sake of saving. And even then, we are not willing to pay what it is worth to save.

    RH

  17. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "On February 1, 2010, the Howard County Council unanimously approved legislation for 30-year master plan that will bring as much as 13 million square feet of retail, commercial, residential, hotel and cultural development to the master-planned community's core. For more than five years, General Growth Properties (GGP) has collaborated with residents, business leaders, elected officials and all other interested parties to create this "community" plan."

    ================================

    If Columbia was so perfect, why is it being redeveloped?

    It doesn;t exactly sound as if General Growth Properties is planning to lose money on lland speculation.

    RH

  18. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Detroit: America's Nineteenth Most Traffic-Congested CIty

    http://jalopnik.com/5164658/detroit-americas-nineteenth-most-traffic+congested-city

    ===============================

    At one time, Detroit was MORE congested than Washington.

    You think maybe there is a coneection between congestion and job loss? NVTA does.

    RH

  19. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The first ‘job’ is for Larry to understand that these ‘100 mile commuters’ are a tiny fraction of all commuters.

    RH

  20. Larry G Avatar

    I would suggest to anyone who thinks they know what a "tiny fraction" is to get their behind out to I-95 in the 6:00am timeframe then come back and blather on about "tiny".

  21. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Recall that the only way one can help commuters is to help them become non-commuters.

    ===================================

    Nonsense. Everyone is a commuter. It is a question of distance, cost, and amenities. The only way you help commuters is to get them the same amenities with lower distance AND cost.

    RH

  22. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I would suggest to anyone who thinks they know what a "tiny fraction" is to get their behind out to I-95 in the 6:00am timeframe then come back and blather on about "tiny".

    ==============================

    Only a tiny fraction of that huge mass is commuting 100 miles. The avegae commute is stil less than 30 minutes.

    Not blather, fact.

    RH

  23. Larry G Avatar

    no the fact is that thousands of people commute 100 miles a day and folks like you bitterly complain that we do not have enough roads to relieve their "congestion".

    BLATHER is all the words you use but avoid the truth.

  24. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "Of those who are currently mployed, only slightly more than a third (34.9%) work in Spotsylvania
    County. Fredericksburg (14.1%), Stafford County (10.8%), Washington, DC (6.5%), and Prince William County (5.9%) are all common locations of non-Spotsylvania employment. An additional 8.7 percent also work elsewhere in Northern Virginia.
    Figure 7.2 provides a full breakdown of employment locations."

    http://www.spotsylvania.va.us/emplibrary/chapter7(1).pdf

    Only 59 percent of the population is working, but that does not meaqn that many of the rest of thme are not also onthe road, going someplace.

    But letrs not blam ALL of that congestion on the 50 mile commuters.

    RH

  25. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I reiterate. A small fraction of the people on the road are people who commute 100 miles.

    RH

  26. Larry G Avatar

    I95 VMT – Caroline County =

    89000

    I95 VMT – Prince William =

    149000

    net traffic coming from the Fredericksburg Area =

    149000 – 89000 = 60,000

    it helps to use facts

    and no 60,000 cars a day is not "tiny" by any stretch of most folks imaginations.

    http://www.virginiadot.org/info/resources/AADT_PrimaryInterstate_2008.pdf page 298

    I realize that using real facts is dirty pool for those who like to be surrounded by their own beliefs.. so I admit to being a buzzkiller of sorts.

    Ray – 60,000 cars a day is not "tiny' any way you want to cut it unless you just want to stay in denial of the facts.

    what would be your point anyway?

    are you arguing that we do not have enough traffic on I-95?

    what is your point?

  27. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "The average commute among the 25 million people studied was seven miles and took 20 minutes, Prof Nielsen told the annual meeting of the Royal Geographical Society in London. He found the figure in his native Denmark was eight miles. Distances were "as the crow flies"; actual journeys were typically 20% longer.

    Commuting journeys now tend to avoid the largest urban centres, especially London, as people try to miss congestion and choose to live outside cities.

    Managers and senior officials travelled the furthest; they made up 30% of all long-distance commuters. People employed in administrative and secretarial positions made the shortest journeys, with 14% of them living within six miles of work."

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2005/sep/02/sciencenews.transportintheuk

    Not DC data, but I wager the situation is not much different here, sinnce housing prices and fuel prices are both lower here the "driving" forces are similar: you trade asimilar amount of money for a similar distance traveled.

    RH

  28. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    and no 60,000 cars a day is not "tiny" by any stretch of most folks imaginations.

    ================================

    They are not all 100 mile commuters.

    If you want to make plans, make plans for what is actually happening and where they are actually going.

    The hundred mile commuter canard is a false representation of what is actually happing every morning.

    The census bureau considers a 90 minute commute "extreme".

    RH

  29. Larry G Avatar

    back to hand-waving and fan-dancing here.

    please address the "tiny" amount of 60,000 cars a day on I-95 and it's ramifications on settlement patterns.

    The facts are clear. There are 60,0000 commuters on I-95 every day no matter what is going on in the UK guy.

  30. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "…others who have worked hard and done well should be able to live where and how they choose, as long as they pay the full cost of their decisions – including ALL externalities. "

    ================================

    That cuts both ways. Urban dwellers are not paying their full costs either, as exemplified by the huge shorfalls occurring in METRO and the urban counties, which require the highest levels of services.

    When EMR makes a fair assessment of ALL costs and ALL
    externalities he will have to suggest a different spatial disribution of where people live and work.

    RH

  31. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I never said there were not a lot of commuters or that I-95 is over utilized during peak hours.

    All I said and still say is that it is false and unhelpful to blame this on 100 mile commuters.

    The argument for van pools or car pools looks a lot different if 2% of commuters travel fifty miles one way or if 50% do.

    If it turns out that 70% of your travelers are going 10 or fifteen miles and travel only 27 minutes, then you can forget about getting them in carpools.

    Before you start making plans or acusation you need to make a fair assessment of what is going on, and not kid yourself into cockeyed conclusions.

    RH

  32. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    A major housing downturn (See WSH, WL) is just what is needed to bring land speculation into perspective.

    ================================

    Nuts. The time to buy is when prices are low, like affter a downturn.

  33. Larry G Avatar

    " All I said and still say is that it is false and unhelpful to blame this on 100 mile commuters."

    nope.

    what you said is that this kind of commuting is a TINY part of the problem which clearly it is not.

    This kind of commuting affects virtually everything from the Fredericksburg Area to the NoVa Area to housing prices in both areas to the roads that connect to the two and our transportation planning and funding policies.

    If you took the 100-mile commuters – the 60,000 cars a day off of I-95 – it would function as it was originally intended – as a connecting route between major urban areas with ample capacity to move the people and the goods that are trying to move.

    When you add the "tiny" 60,000 100 mile a day commuters, I-95 becomes UNFIT for virtually any kind of travel other than commuting which totally dominates the traffic flow.

    To dismiss this as TINY is truly myopic and non-responsive to the core fundamental problems that affect urbanized settlement patterns.

  34. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Study after study have shown that people DO make rational choices on how far they travel to work to buy what size house etc.

    But EMR is correct that those choices are based only on the costs that they actaully pay. Ther ere many external costs that are not presently paid.

    But we have to assume that those external costs accrue to someone who claims ownership (of something). I cannot incur any costs unless I own something to incur them against.

    However, if I own something there is also a price I will sell it for, or that other people owning similar goods will sell theirs for.

    So the way to set EMR's level playing field is to let people own and buy or sell all those goods that they claim to be incurring damages against.

    Once we have adequate property rights that describe and protect all those kinds of property we can buy and sell, then they can be traded on a level playing field.

    By vaguely claiming that some people are not paying for their externalities EMR is making a claim of ownership of vague and unspecifed property. Making that property avaialble on the market is the best way to find the level playing field for it.

    RH

  35. Larry G Avatar

    How much should it cost you for the roads you use to drive 100 miles a day – over and above your car and it's fuel?

    who should pay for that "externalality" if not the people who incur it?

  36. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    what you said is that this kind of commuting is a TINY part of the problem which clearly it is not.

    ================================

    Despite what you think or claim the 100 mile commuters represent not only a small fraction of people traveling but a small fraction of total miles traveled.

    You can choose not to believe it, and live in a dreamworld of your own, but those are the published facts. I won't bother to argue this with you anymore.

    RH

  37. Larry G Avatar

    I simply believe what my eyes tell me that 130,000 cars on 6-8 lanes of asphalt is in no way, shape or form characterizable as "TINY" in size, scope or impacts except to the hopelessly myopic who think property rights is what the issue is really about.

  38. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    who should pay for that "externalality" if not the people who incur it?

    ——————————–
    You freally don't get it. The people who INCUR the cost of an externality are not the ones who CAUSE THE COST.

    The ones who INCUR the costs are the ones claiming their property is being damaged unfairly by others.

    My argument is that the way you fix this is to declare that property, protect it like any other property, and then let people buy and sell it for whatever price they think is fair.

    Problem solved, and no one gets cheated.

    RH

  39. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    No one can incur costs unles they own property to incur it against.

    If you claim costs for maintaining the road, then you are claiming ownership of (part of) the road.

    So, show me your deed, and how much you paid for it.

    Right away we have a little problem, because you have claimed that no one knows how much gas tax is paid and given back in one jurisdiction. There is no clear deed. That is exactly EMRs complaint when he says "if costs were fairly allocated": what he is saying is that there is no clear deed.

    Besides not having a clear deed, you and others claim that drivers do not pay anywhere near what the roads cost. Under tht argument the proerty isn't even paid for, let alone have a deed.

    Therefore, if you as a driver are not paying what the roads cost, how can you claim ownership, and therefore damages?

    Are we going to believe that the 2% of people who do not drive own the rest? If so, how did they pay for it?

    Obviously that cannot be the case so people who drive must have paid for, (and own) the roads in some other manner. That means 98% of all of us, who are, by the way also paying for (some of) the externality that we call mass transit.

    We have a system, whatever it is, that pays for the roads through some kind of allocation, that 98% of us use. The only people this is an externality for are the 2% who do not drive and even they depend on roads somehow.

    Now,, some of us use the roads heavier, faster, and longer than others. Those people get more benefit and they should pay more according to the benfits they receive. We could argue that they are not payig proportionately to their use, but he problem withthat argument is that we do not know who is paying how much.

    We do not know what the allocation system is that pays for the roads we have.

    Therefore what basis do we have to claim ownership of something we have external damages against?

    RH

  40. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    You claim not to use the roads much. Therefore you have not paid for as much and you can claim less damage for externalities.

    RH

  41. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    simply believe what my eyes tell me that 130,000 cars on 6-8 lanes of

    ============================

    You cannot blame all of that on 100 mile commuters, nor can you calim all of the damage from all of the externality.

    If you are claiming and externality then YOU are claiming damasge to YOUR property.

    It is ALL about property rights, and if you caqn't se that YOU are the one with myopia.

    RH

  42. Larry G Avatar

    so if we convert to a toll road…we're charging the wrong people (the folks who use it?)?

  43. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    so if we convert to a toll road…we're charging the wrong people (the folks who use it?)?

    ================================

    You really are an idiot if you cannot see the truth of what you propose.

    We have a very complicated means of paying for roads and mass transit right now. No one knows, really, who pays for what, or what they get in return.

    There is some portion of what we pay that depends on how much we drive.

    Probably the amount we pay proprotionate to what we drive isnt enough because it has not been increased in 30 years.

    Toll roads would appear to be a way to increase the mile proportionate amount we pay, but tolls are notoriously inefficent, so it is a waste of money to collect money that way to begin with.

    In addition toll colletion is lumpy: collected some places and not others. There fore they increase the prob ability that somone is paying an unreciprocated externality.

    In short, you have asked the wrong question. It is not who uses the tollroad that matters.

    Who uses the transportation system?
    Who benefits from it?
    Who pays for it?

    Figure that out. Then work on a way that gets payments somewhat in line with benefits at the lowest cost to collect.

    I can almost guarantee that answer does not include toll roads, because yes, they will be charging the wrong people. I know it is a paradox, but so are most things that make sense.

    RH

  44. Larry G Avatar

    so the folks who pay tolls to go across the Chesapeake Bay Bridge/Tunnel are the wrong folks to be paying that toll?

    who should pay the toll for them instead and why?

  45. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The people who use the tunnel are not the only ones that benefit from it and they should not be the only ones paying for it.

    Do you remember the Eastern shore of Virginia before the B/T?

    RH

  46. Larry G Avatar

    well I did ask – who else show pay for it….

    I'm surprised you have not heard about the PPTA bill in the GA that agreed to let a PPTA road scoop up the taxes from businesses that were created as a result of the new road…..

    so.. the new road gets the taxes instead of the locality, eh?

    So.. a developer can propose a new road – and have it paid for with taxes from the development it generates.

  47. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    No, I was not aware of that, but I think it is a move in the right direction.

    The argument has been that development does not pay, and roads are a subsidy to developers.

    Not knowing the details, it seems to me this kind of accounting might address the problem.

    But why only tax new businesses? It seems to me that new businesses and bettter roads will make homes in that area more valuable as well. They will pay additional tax on that value, and how is that money allocated?

    As an anlogy consider the argument about externalities. EMR and others will calim that someone (a manufacturor) isn't paying his full costs because he is causing pollution that others pay for as damage to their property, somehow.

    So, you internalize those costs as a tax or fee on the manufacturor and he adds that to his sales price. Now his customers pay for the pollution. Ideally they will not pay more in pollution tax than the cost of the externality, otherwise they are worse off.

    But, the pollution still exists and his customers may not be the same people that live around the plant. They have not gained anything, except their local taxes are lower due to the influx of pollution tax from somewhere else. They get "Paid" in tax reductions in an amount equal to what they "pay" for pollution losses.

    You would not see any reason in this scenario to set the taxes higher than the cost of thed damage, because this would repreent a transfer of wealth from the foreign customers to the local residents – one of those bad subsidies.

    In this case you stil have the pollution, but the cost of it is paid for. The only way this works (environmentally) is you require the manufacturor to use the tax money to buy equipment to reduce the pollution.

    Suppose the equipment costs more than the damage from the pollution?
    The customers someplace else are paying a premium above the cost of the damage, which amounts to a subsidy to local residents, same as before.

    Local residents could care less if the cost of preventing the damage is more than the cost of the damage, because they don't pay it, or don't think they do. They are demanding a premium on the protection of their property over and above the property of the manufacturors customes who pay the tax.

    Until the plant shuts down because it is no longer competitive.

    I'll concede that some toll situations are special cases, even though they are generally a bad idea. But it is simply wrong to demand that the toll payers absorb all the costs, because that generates inequalities in how peoples property is protected, same as in the example above.

    The only way I see that makes sense is a true systems analysis: see who is paying costs and who is getting benefits. Then see who they do business withbecause they are secondaqry beneficiaries, and then see who they doo business with as third order beneficiaris or payees.

    Aftter that, the costs and benefits are too small to worry about. The transaction costs to fix ineuities are greater than the inequities, and there is no point in going forward.

    RH

    RH

  48. Larry G Avatar

    the way the law is worded, it says "development".

    so you use the taxes on the new development to pay for the road.

    where do the libraries and schools police/fire come from?

  49. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Amid budget crisis, California makes parole easier

    California has determined tht the cost of the cure is greater than the cost of the damage prevented.

    The mandatory tghree strikes law is coming home to roost.

    RH

  50. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    "Spanish MEPs join criticism of holiday home law

    The law is designed to protect Spain's coastline
    Spanish MEPs have joined counterparts in criticising the treatment of expats who face having homes in Spain bulldozed under coastal protection law.

    Rules introduced in 1988 left coastal properties liable to demolition and thousands of British and other European owners stripped of property rights.

    MEPs say homeowners have been given no legal redress or compensation. They have asked for the law to be clarified.

    Spain insists owners of legally built homes are being "fairly compensated".

    The law was designed to protect the coast and set limits on building, allowing municipal leisure developments but not private homes.

    Since its introduction, thousands of people who live or have holiday homes in Spain have discovered that properties bought legitimately through the Spanish legal system had, in fact, been built in breach of the regulations.

    Some have seen their dreams, their homes, and their life savings literally reduced to rubble before their eyes

    Roger Helmer MEP
    Meanwhile, in Andalucia, regional authorities have applied the law retrospectively to declare legitimately built properties illegal.

    Since the law came into force, courts have rejected 96% of owners' appeals against expropriation, the European Parliament's petitions committee was told.

    "The Spanish government must recognise that those affected must be fully compensated," said Spanish centre-right MEP Gabriel Mato. "

    "Some have seen their dreams, their homes, and their life savings literally reduced to rubble before their eyes"

    Roger Helmer MEP

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8584972.stm

    —————————

    It will be interesting to see how
    European coastal protection laws play out in comparison to those in the US.

    It appears from this that at least some ministers see the requiremnt for compensation. Other jurisdictions seem to ignore even the most basic of vested interest considerations.

    RH

  51. Larry G Avatar

    seems like everyday, we hear of sexual predators that have been unleashed on the innocent that was premised on the cost savings of turning these animals lose.

    So.. our police go out and grab the young and dumb for messing around with drugs.. lock them up with hardened criminals and when push by finances.. they boot the sexual predators and then stand back and say 'so sorry'..won't happen again…

    we will NEVER have enough money.

    It is ALWAYS about priorities.

    we seem to be plenty stupid about priorities some times.

    just FYI – the largest state agency in Virginia is – guess who – yup.. the Dept of "corrections".

  52. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Well that “sacrifice” by a small minority of the workers in the NUR is costing the majority in the NUR (8 plus million of them) AND all tax payers in the US of A a lot of money.

    ==============================

    Calling it a "sacrifice" in quotes doesn't mean that it isn't one.

    The rest of this doesn't add up. If a minority have "bad habits" and the cost is divided up amongst millions, we could esily be talking about potential savings to them of what, half a cent?

    RH

  53. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    the largest state agency in Virginia is – guess who – yup.. the Dept of "corrections".

    ===============================

    Itis nice to know that we are so "correct". Puts in close company with places like North Korea.

    How is it that some (most) other countries manage to keep a lot fewer people in jail and still manage to be civilized?

    RH

  54. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    where do the [new] libraries and schools police/fire come from?

    ============================

    Where did the old ones come from?
    Were they ever paid for, in full?

    If not, why demand full payment up front from new developers?

    Do new roads, new development, and more people increase the value of your home, and your potential for better income?

    Compare Fauquier household income and per capita assessed value to Loudoun.

    Sure, Loudoun residents pay higher taxes, but the tax increases they have endured pale in comparison to the increase in overall wealth.

  55. Larry G Avatar

    re:"Sure, Loudoun residents pay higher taxes, but the tax increases they have endured pale in comparison to the increase in overall wealth. "

    if you don't earn enough money – you cannot afford to live in Loudoun…. both the price of houses and their taxes.

    part of the problem is that the counties do not work to incentivize less expensive housing stock… that folks with more modest incomes could afford.

    This is what convinces many NoVa workers to commute to Fredericksburg.

  56. Larry G Avatar

    re" who will pay the taxes?

    do you know how CDAs, Tax Districts and TIF works?

    if you know how they work – then you know that there are TWO taxes and the second one is on top of the first – supplemental taxes to pay for new infrastructure while the original underlying tax still pays for operational costs and services.

    the "new road" idea would end up with previously vacant land – developed with homes and businesses that require services – beyond the initial infrastructure.

    where do the taxes come from to pay for services if it is pre-dedicated to pay off the road bonds?

    the rest of the folks in the county are not going to buy firehouses and fireman for the new area – not without the BOS getting thrown out of office first and the replacements undoing that idea.

    so .. the reality is that the new development people will pay TWO taxes.. one for the road and the other for services

    JUST LIKE THEY DO RIGHT NOW

    with CDAs, tax districts and TIF

    no free lunch – you play – you pay

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