Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

Collective Punishment at UVa

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by

James A. Bacon
in ,

sororityhouse2
Collateral damage

University of Virginia President Teresa Sullivan’s suspension of fraternity and sorority social events was a case of collective punishment for the alleged rape of a first year student at the Phi Kappa Psi fraternity house — and arguably unconstitutional. So contends Hans Bader at Liberty Unyielding. Writes Bader:

The University’s action was totally arbitrary in its scope and application.  U.Va. sororities are generally quite law-abiding (for example, they don’t even serve alcohol), and no one says sorority members committed sexual assault. Yet U.Va. shut down their social activities along with all Greek organizations until January. That seems like a flagrant violation of constitutional norms.

I never did understand why sororities were included in the ban. No one’s arguing that sororities are hot-beds of the “culture of rape” at UVa. How can anyone justify this? Where are the women’s rights advocates?

— JAB

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41 responses to “Collective Punishment at UVa”

  1. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    gee willikers – if you listen to some others in this blog – It was Obama that forced them to close the sororities and blame the guys…

    right?

    😉

    1. DonR Avatar
      DonR

      Not Obama.

      If Obama had tried to close down the fraternities and sororities at UVA:

      1. He would have started by saying, “If you like your parties you can keep your parties.”

      2. He would have assigned Joe Biden to the task of closing the fratenities and sororities just before heading off to his third round of golf that day.

      3. Biden would have confused UVA with Virginia Tech.

      4. He would have grabbed Eric Holder and gotten on board Air Force 2 instructing the pilot to take them to Virginia Tech in Vicksburg

      5. Landing in Mississippi Biden would have instructed Holder to close all the Starbucks while he went to close all the Florsheim’s.

      6. As he walked up the ramp to fly off Biden would have declared to the bewildered people of Vicksburg that the Obama Administration will not tolerate the culture of grape.

      1. larryg Avatar
        larryg

        you mean if you have employer-provided health insurance you can keep it?

        is that also true?

        why? who guarantees that?

        … 😉

        but yes.. if you want to keep your drunken sex-infested parties you can – just don’t let the feminists get to Teresa Sullivan and co-opt her into their camp by reminder her that she has the same procreation “equipment” as them…!!!

        🙂

        bad bad Obama!

      2. larryg Avatar
        larryg

        last I heard – the Republicans were going to defund Air Force 1 and 2 and disinvite Obama to the State of the Union Address….

        and you know – if Congress REALLY does not want the administration to do something – they can do exactly what they did for GITMO – and explicitly put into law – make it illegal … to do.

        got a problem with immigration – what’s the problem – do a GITMO solution.

        got a problem with Obama organizing those “feminists” from messing with College rules – no problem – GITMO it.

        the problem we have is not Obama – it’s rampant hypocrisy.. revisionist history and feckless and cowardly behavior from penny ante petty politicians and their do-nothing cheerleaders.

  2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    This collective blame is a massive effort on the part of University administrators to shift blame away from their own gross failures over the years. Sullivan has assumed the roll of Bloody Mary Queen of Scots, Off with their Heads. The violation of rights here by Diktat is breathtaking. It’s time those who are the Real Abused to stand up and take action, including strong legal action on multiple fronts.

  3. Acbar Avatar
    Acbar

    It’s pretty clear that the remaining “punishment” will have no real effect, given the extended break for the holidays that ends when the “punishment”ends. But, symbolically, you are right to ask for retraction, and the University should admit it was wrong even after the fact.

  4. Lift Avatar
    Lift

    Nope, she’s retrenching. Note the strange way she characterizes her own decision in 3rd paragraph, yet does not revise it. And what am I to make of the co-mingling of racial protests in the opening? Why not pull in the scourge of ebola?

    “Dear Parents:
    Today is the first day of final exams, and in a few weeks we will end a tumultuous fall semester. Three members of the Class of 2017 have died this semester, and the sense of grief and loss is palpable. In addition, many members of our community are grieving over the deaths of young black men in Staten Island and Ferguson.

    All of you are aware of the most recent incidents affecting the University and students as a result of the article in Rolling Stone and its subsequent retraction. I am writing today to provide some context for our response, and the changes you can expect when classes resume in January.

    Since the article was published, Greek activities have been suspended until Jan. 9. My decision to suspend fraternity and sorority social activity for the remainder of the year came after UVa’s Inter-Fraternity Council suspended its activities for the weekend of Nov. 21 and after the Phi Kappa Psi fraternity chapter at UVa voluntarily surrendered its own Fraternal Organization Agreement with the University. I remain sensitive to concerns about broadly indicting the entire Greek system. As I said in an address earlier this month, in any crisis it can be far too easy to paint with a broad brush, and to blindly attack entire groups of individuals. This is not a responsible reaction. Our fraternities were terribly distressed by the allegations in the article, and they are working with us toward solutions.

    Until Jan. 9, chapter meetings and philanthropic activities are permitted, but I have encouraged all of the Greek-letter organizations, including the National Pan-Hellenic Council, the Multicultural Greek Council, and the Inter-Sorority Council to use this time to strengthen the student safety provisions of their agreements with the University. I met with the leaders of each of these groups, and in typical UVa fashion, our students have already come up with a number of sound ideas for improvement. Student Council will work with us and all of the CIOs (student organizations) to do the same thing. The reinstatement of Greek activities on Jan. 9 will be in conjunction with a new Fraternal Organization Agreement that will enhance the safety of members and their guests.

    Even though the facts in the Rolling Stone story are in dispute, sexual misconduct does occur and it has no place at our University. We will continue our efforts to improve our policies and practices, to support survivors with counseling and in other ways, and to rigorously examine our culture and climate. Survivors will continue to have support through our student life and counseling professionals. I have named an Ad Hoc Group on Campus Climate and Culture; this group consists of two Board of Visitors members, one dean, four students, two faculty members, two alumni, and two parents. We will be working with our Board to examine what changes might be beneficial.

    The Rolling Stone article, in my opinion, unfairly maligned a number of dedicated professionals who work for the University. I have noted in particular that our students immediately reached out to our Student Affairs staff with expressions of support. I can vouch for the fact that this staff has worked tirelessly to provide for the welfare of all of our students.

    Some changes you can expect in the next semester include a police substation on the Corner and more frequent joint patrols by the University and Charlottesville police. We plan to introduce a new group of unarmed security personnel, called “Ambassadors,” who will wear distinctive uniforms. On weekend evenings, they will be prominently deployed near the libraries and the Corner to assist students, provide escorts as needed, and provide additional eyes and ears for the police patrols. We have recently completed nighttime tours of the Grounds that have led to tree-trimming and light replacement, and we will be upgrading the lighting, especially around laboratory buildings and other buildings where people may work late at night.

    We have a new proposed policy on sexual misconduct that takes into account new federal mandates. It is posted here for public comment until December 20. We will be promulgating the revised new policy in the spring, and we will also be providing training in the new policy for everyone at the University.

    I have also committed myself to visiting with faculty and student groups to encourage the conversation about how we foster healthy relationships, discourage sexual misconduct, and make the University community safer for all of us.

    As we pause at the end of the year to reflect on our values and traditions, I reflect on how fortunate I am to interact with your students and with our caring faculty and staff. We all agree that we want a safe University where all students can develop their potential to its fullest. That is our top priority.

    With best wishes for your students and for our new year,
    Teresa A. Sullivan
    President”

    1. DonR Avatar
      DonR

      The side trip to Ferguson was a bit odd. However, I can see why she wanted to include that. Nothing like that would ever happen in Virginia. I mean the police in Fairfax County would never randomly shoot and kill a black man who was not threatening them. No way. The police in Fairfax County are not racist. Which explains why they shoot and kill white men standing on their doorsteps …
      http://wapo.st/1GdTgCL

      Then, they cover up the matter with the direct support of the idiots on the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors (with the exception of one supervisor who actually seems to “get it”).

      Random, inexplicable police killings – they’re not just for black people anymore.

      Something needs to be done about these killings.

  5. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Tempest in a teapot. FInals are this week. Greeks reopen Jan. 9. Who is going to be on “grounds” in the interim?

    President Sullivan is right to move to time out. Too much bad stuff has been going on. This all needs to calm down.

    Also curious that Liberty U did nothing about the alleged assailant of Hannah Graham — love to see them take the moral and legal high ground. Jerry Falwell U is certainly a role model for me!

  6. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Everyone should read carefully all of the Rolling Stones article again. Even if only parts of it are true (such as the allegation that Jackie told UVA the same story she told Rolling Stone and told UVA that story 12 to 18 months before the article was published) that fact along is a very strong indictment of UVA leaders.

    And its an indictment that opens up the threat of many lawsuits against UVA on multiple grounds, including charges that could end the careers of many leaders at UVA.

    This possibility is what is driving UVA’s massive effort to shift blame onto the fraternities and use them as the scapegoat and shield against UVA’s own negligence in protecting its students against what UVA should have known to be the inevitable results of the hook-up culture. Those results for years had been unfolding before the eyes of UVA leaders, it fills up their files, and they took no action during those many years. Fear of this and their own hides is what is now driving Sullivan and her crew.

    For some small flavor of what I am talking about. Here is a woman’s blog response I found at nationalreview.com/article/394305/feminist-power-grab-jonah-goldberg:

    “very cold: I live in a college town. I work with college students. My suggestion to all these concerned liberal journalists is to take the time to watch the behaviors of students today. Here is what I mean.”

    “Girls today often are the ones on campus with the jobs. So they have the money. They often move in with boys, whether as friends, or couples. They head out to bars in groups looking to find boys, and to party and get drunk. In the wee hours of the night, I have seen girls impaired walking home alone. They may have come in groups, but often leave alone. Girls are still happy to let boys pick up the tab. This image of the weak is false. I have seen boys duking it out on the sidewalk, and have seen women doing the same. Not long ago I saw a girl get tossed on her head from a bar onto the concrete sidewalk. I have witnessed some awful behavior. Keep in mind all were horrendously drunk.”

    “I spent a lot of time at a frat house growing up. The drinking every day except Sunday was unreal, but during the week only after 11 pm. They studied before that. But what was disturbing to me as a fairly conservative girl, was the girls for sale. Every night the girls filed into this house to get drunk and hook up. I personally never knew of any rape that occurred, but tons of horrible decision making went on all the time. I had several conversations with these girls for sale and admonished the boys for allowing them into the house off the street without invitation. Both sides scoffed. Both were happy with the landscape.”

    “It is much worse today. T”

  7. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Sorry, but I do not see that UVA is making frats the scapegoat and I don’t see this as some kind of feminist plot. It seems that UVA officials maybe did not do enough about the rape allegations, but then, in this case, the allegations apparently were not entirely credible.

    I also do a double take when asked to look at a National Review report on this. Now there’s an unbiased source!

    Maybe we should get the SDS involved. They picketed a frat at my Boston area college back in the early 70s for hiring Combat Zone hookers to entertain pledges. Was that a feminist plot? Maybe!

    1. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      Jesus H. KEEEEERIST – Peter

      are you so blind that you cannot see this as a secret Obama Feminist Plot?

      I mean guy – Bacon and others have spent YEARS trying to properly school you in correct Conservatism and look at you – you’re a traitor to the cause!

    2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      Peter, as usual lost in your stereotypes, the entire point has eluded you, going right over your head.

  8. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    The Washington Post last night published its latest update on Jackie’s alleged gang rape on Sept. 28, 2012 at UVA’s Phi Kappa Psi fraternity house. This story is getting quite involved. But the long and short of it now would appear to strongly suggest that almost every mayor detail of Jackie’s story in Rolling Stone may well be a figment of someone’s imaginings, either Jackie’s or the someone at Rolling Stone.

    Indeed the emerging testimony of Jackie’s friends and related facts would suggest that in many cases the precise opposite of the Rolling Stones allegations occurred. For example, her friends testimony that Jackie after the “rape” showed no apparent physical injuries whatsoever. And that she refused her friends urging that they take her to the hospital given her psychological state.

    For more flavor of the continuing twists in the story originally related by Rolling Stone, consider this commentary by Slate’s Hanna Rosin:

    “The Post story doesn’t connect all the dots, but it’s not hard to do. Jackie has now given her friends two different names for the man she was with that night. Neither of them was in fact with her, ever dated her, or even knew her all that well. She appears to have invented a suitor, complete with fake text messages and a fake photo, which suggests a capacity for somewhat elaborate deception. Jackie, though, has not recanted her story. Her attorney would not answer questions for the Post’s story on Wednesday and has told reporters to stop contacting Jackie.”

    slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/12/10/rolling_stone_sabrina_rubin_erdely_the_washington_post_inches_closer_to.html

    Heretofore it appeared possible (indeed likely) that something bad happened to Jackie on the UVA grounds the night Sept. 28, 2012, given her emotional distress when met by her friends at 1am (not 3 a.m.) a mile from fraternity row (according to Shapiro’s account to Fox news TV last night).

    Now even this possibility might well rest on shaky grounds given her friends’ account of an elaborate exchange of e-mails and photographs of an alleged suitor that was shared with Jackie’s friends well before Sept. 28. Two imaginary suitors may have involved and its possible that neither had any connection with UVA. So Jackie’s veracity was being questioned by her friends well before the alleged rape took place.

    Where does this leave us?

    For one thing a whole lot of people at UVA have a whole lot of explaining to do. According to the Rolling Stone’s article, UVA was first made aware of Jackie’s allegations in the spring of 2013, some 8 months after the event. But that “If Dean Eramo was surprised at Jackie’s story of gang rape, it didn’t show … In the meantime, having presumably judged there to be no threat to public safety, the UVA administration took no action to warn the campus that an allegation of gang rape had been made against an active fraternity.”

    And the article goes on that in the fall of 2013 “Dean Eramo had connected (Jackie) with Emily, a fourth-year who’d become active in One Less, a student-run sexual-assault education organization that doubles as a support group … in its weekly meetings, the 45-member group would discuss how to foster dialogue on campus. Afterward they’d splinter off and share stories of sexual assault, each tale different and yet very much the same. Many took place on tipsy nights with men who refused to stop; some were of sex while blackout drunk; rarer stories involved violence, though none so extreme as Jackie’s. But no matter the circumstances, their peers’ (none members) reactions were largely the same: Assaults were brushed off, with attackers defended (“He’d never do anything like that”), the victim questioned (“Are you sure?”) … But no such doubts shadowed the meetings with One Less which was fine with Jackie. One Less held seminars for student groups on bystander intervention and how to be supportive of survivors. Jackie dove into her new roles as peer advisor and Take Back the Night committee member and began to discover just how wide her secret UVA survivor network was – because the more she shared her story, the more girls sought her out, waylaying her after presentations or after classes, even calling in the middle of the night with a crisis. Jackie has been approached by so many survivors that she wonders whether the one-in-five statistic many not apply in Charlottesville. ‘I feel like its one in three at UVA,’ she says.”

    Here are some questions about this alleged rape at UVA:

    1/ Why did UVA deem that Jackie allegations posed no threat to public safety on the grounds?

    2/ How could Jackie’s story circulate so widely around the grounds without being challenged by anyone as false?

    3/ Conversely how could her story be deemed true without anyone taking action against the accused in the summer and fall of 2013 or the spring and summer of 2014?

    4/ How could President Sullivan claim she did not know Jackie’s name until the Rolling Stone article was published?

    5/ How is it that no one within the UVA administration – whether its Board, its President, its Deans, or its faculty – came to the defense of the accused?

    6/ Why did all these “leaders” who were responsible for all UVA students instead rush to judgment, condemning the accused, and in some cases appearing to promote the vandalizing of their fraternity house?

    7/ How did all of this hysteria arise at UVA, who is responsible for it, and why does it continue to rise?

    8/ How might Jackie’s tragedy (and that is surely what it is) be related to Hannah Graham?

    9/ Might a rampant and unaddressed Hook-Up culture play a roll in all this?

    10/ Do the leaders of UVA need to do “soul searching” of a nature far different from their current behavior which resembles in practical affect that of lynch mob going after 30% of its own students without proof, much less trial, attacking those they are duty bound to protect from injustice instead.

    1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      11/ Please President Sullivan tell us what “many members of our community are grieving over the deaths of young black men in Staten Island and Ferguson” has to do with events surrounding Jackie at UVA?

    2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      In short, President Sullivan, how did you go from doing nothing about Jackie’s allegations for two plus years to your hyper overreacting against the accused based on what appears to be published article of fiction disguised as fact?

      Might your answer be that, although your people never believed or very strongly doubted Jackie’s story in the first instance, you saw an opportunity to use that suspected hit piece to promote your own political agenda and shift blame away from your own neglect?

  9. Cville Resident Avatar
    Cville Resident

    Can we put on our critical thinking caps?

    1. First, let’s talk “mandatory reporting” to the police. Am I the only one that realizes that Liberty University actually did report Jesse Matthew to the police? And that was sooooooo effective…the guy is alleged to have killed two women after that police investigation initiated by the university. Critical thinking skills people. And when you read the News and Advance’s account of why the criminal investigation fell apart….surprise…….problems with the “victim” testifying. Gee…..you don’t think that will happen with mandatory reporting do you? This is one of the worst policy ideas that’s been proposed in the last 10 years.

    2. While I generally enjoy this blog, it is part of the problem in today’s media culture. Notice you had posts immediately after the Rolling Stone story was released….Immediately. We even had a post about an existential crisis at U.Va. citing the RS story.

    When you read today’s WaPo story, it’s pretty clear except to the willingly blind, that this whole episode is bordering on a complete hoax. I can’t say with 100% certainty that “nothing” happened to “Jackie” on the night in question. But I can say with 100% certainty that the story portrayed in Rolling Stone was a fable.

    And yet….Virginia and national news outlets (including this blog) had to breathlessly post commentaries and stories immediately……based on a fable? I’ll give Mr. Bacon a wee bit of credit in some subsequent posts about calming down and searching for facts, but notice that he linked to the RS article almost immediately with his own spin when you search the older posts on this blog.

    Bearing Drift was posting about millions of dollars in lawsuits almost immediately. No one should ever read that site again when you go back and read their post.

    Yeah…..the Virginia media has a real problem. Nobody stopped after reading the story and realized that so much of the story on its face, without even doing a bit of research, (it was dark, b/t she could identify her attackers, read how she identified the frat house, breaks a glass table and rolls around on glass for 3 hours but doesn’t seek medical attention, and the “Get its leg” line that couldn’t even make the script of a bad B movie) seemed pretty unbelievable but everyone in the Virginia media swallowed it whole……

    Mr. Fawell and larryg, I haven’t forgotten about you two. Still swamped….hopefully, I can get back to you two on Christmas week with a long post (btw, there are some things I know about this episode that still haven’t been divulged….you hear a lot by hanging out on the Corner and listening to the kids talk).

    1. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      ” 1. First, let’s talk “mandatory reporting” …. This is one of the worst policy ideas that’s been proposed in the last 10 years.

      there are TWO PARTS to mandatory reporting – the second part says that you do a background check by checking the reports.

      2. While I generally enjoy this blog, it is part of the problem in today’s media culture.

      agree… and you are correct – critical thinking skills have gone into the crapper

      and the really weird thing is that even the right-leaning groups who don’t like the idea of feminists running around telling false stories – were apparently so intimidated by the RS article – they could not manage themselves to find the obvious inconsistencies and had to wait for the “leftist” WaPo to do it.

      Mr. Fawell and larryg, I haven’t forgotten about you two.

      not much Reed and I agree on… 😉

      but always enjoy and find useful – and thoughtful your commentary – even when I don’t totally agree… we work to better understand each other…

    2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      Looking for it. You give every impression of someone who knows what they are talking about.

  10. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    “Peter, as usual lost in your stereotypes, the entire point has eluded you, going right over your head.”

    Buzz off Reed. Do you have any children? I do. Two daughters. One finished college two years ago and the other is a student at …(three guesses!!!). And you are so presumptuous that you are going to lecture me on “kids today?” Are you kidding me? My children have never gotten involved in the mayhem you have gleened from reading your right wing tomes. Some may, indeed. But the ‘hook up culture” you seemed so surprised about has been around for a while — like may 15 to 20 years ago. Where have you been?

    The other thing that burns me about your type is that this is suddenly the exclusive fault of President Teresa Sullivan. Hot flash to Reed! All kinds of sexual weirdness goes on all over. Latest Title IX (look it up) complaints involve alleged sexual assaults at Yale and Amherst. There is something about having a FEMALE prez of UVA that burns male right wing dinosaurs such as yourself and Bacon. Admit it!

    Honestly, I am getting so sick of the crap this blog is spewing I am seriously thinking about quitting. Too much time for too much uninformed bullshit.

    Best regards,
    Peter

    1. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      excellent response Peter! friendly amendment – you forgot to mention this is also Obama’s fault.. who is in a love fest with feminists!

      the whole right wing scene these days is like one never-ending Kabuki Theatre – with only the venues and characters changing but the theme is the same….

  11. larryg Avatar
    larryg

    the whole problem with the right now days – and unlike the right I used t admire and find reasons to support sometimes – is that they seem to be all about blame and condemnation and almost nothing about real and practical solutions that acknowledge the world is flawed but work on making the system work and work better.

    “Principles” are said to be paramount and the excuse Du jour why we can’t deal with everything from climate change, to health care to immigration – to campus sexual violence.

    everything is impossible to do because we cannot trust govt or institutions and really on tough issues the GOP cannot even agree among themselves.

    so we have zero trouble hammering Teresa Sullivan or Obama – but when you ask what to do –

    they have no answers.. and their favorite thing is to go back to hammering someone…

    blame Obama. blame RS. Blame the Media. Blame Sullivan. Blame Feminists” Blame Liberals.

    but offer no solutions…

    this is why I’ve become a strident critic of the right these days.

  12. newmann Avatar
    newmann

    I never did understand why sororities were included in the ban. No one’s arguing that sororities are hot-beds of the “culture of rape” at UVa. How can anyone justify this? Where are the women’s rights advocates?

    Really? All this hyperventilating because frats and sororities can’t throw a party for a couple of weeks. The real collateral damage here is to those women who actually do tell the truth, and those who will now be afraid to.

    Instead of sensationalizing this story and overreacting to it, the media (and that includes this blog and others) should be looking at the bigger picture, not focusing on minutiae. A question to ask is why can’t the press in VA produce something like this, that speaks to the real fallout of this appalling story :
    https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/12/07/rolling-stone-uva-rape-story-disaster-for-all/sXnOfwEr4FMVrJBhLeAFNK/story.html

    Finally, in an earlier post, JAB put forth a lot of questions: The ‘narrative’ itself was ‘demolished’ after friends/acquaintances of the alleged victim came forward publicly. Even ABC News put the trio on their broadcast last night. I suppose the thinking was that it was in neat contrast to the latest Cosby victim to come forward: a famous black model from the 80s.

    I would suggest that if this blog wants real answers about this type of crime that it might start with understanding how women choose to come forward (or not) in the aftermath of being assaulted. After all, this was supposed to be a search for a ‘dispassionate presentation’ of the facts was it not?
    http://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/Publications_NSVRC_Overview_False-Reporting.pdf

    1. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      The reason I “hyperventilate” about frats and sororities is twofold: (1) it punishes the innocent along with the (presumed) guilty, and (2) it diminishes our understanding of what is going on.

      1. larryg Avatar
        larryg

        re: the “wrong” response

        I would posit that this is what happens when something blows up and you feel some level of responsibility for it occurring on your watch / on your premises and you panic because people are going to hammer you if all you do is provide a written response and take no action.

        but to not let the “hyperventilated” completely off – you probably KNEW things were not all honky dory and yes the “contribution” was basically affix generalized blame to drunk women acting badly. ZAP!

        if your response to the problem is to pretend it’s not – don’t be surprised when things do blow up that all sorts of odd and inappropriate responses come forth… .. bad stuff begets more bad stuff if not attended to..

  13. DonR Avatar
    DonR

    Things continue to evolve …

    The Obama Administration’s DoJ just issued a report with very different statistics for sexual assault of students than the “1 in 5” claim. The DoJ statistic? 6.1 in 1,000. Quite a difference And, students are safer from sexual assault than non-students. So much for the culture of rape on campus I guess.

    http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=5176

    1. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      wait! I thought it was Obama’s DOJ and they were run by feminists out to get the Universities?

      what gives? have we been getting the wrong poop all along? holy cow!

      1. DonR Avatar
        DonR

        I have always claimed Obama is incompetent rather than evil. Once again his administration seems to be arguing with itself.

        There is no compression algorithm for experience. Obama was unready for the job when first elected and remains incapable of effectively acting as President of the United Staes.

        1. larryg Avatar
          larryg

          you mean it’s not true that Obama sent a bunch of feminists down to make trouble? didn’t you say that?

          1. DonR Avatar
            DonR

            Not me, at least that I recall. I don’t suspect a feminist plot. More like intentional liberal hysteria mongering. Nothing gets out the “grass roots” on election day like cultural high drama. The right says, “They’re coming to take our guns!”. The left says, “There a horrible rape culture on campus which we will fix with regulations.”.

            What happened to the rape culture given this new DoJ report? Will Obama rescind his Title IX threats and let the courts be courts and universities be universities?

  14. DonR Avatar
    DonR

    Meanwhile, the Rolling Stone article gets weirder and weirder …

    It seems that both “Jackie” and the article’s author are practiced liars. Jackie told her friends that the leader of the gang rape was a fraternity brother at UVA. The actual person was a high school classmate who didn’t go to UVA, hadn’t been to Charlottesville in 6 years and was far, far away participating in an athletic competition on the night in question.

    False claims of rape are illegal under Virginia law. Perhaps it’s time for the police to have a chat with “Jackie”.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/education/u-va-students-challenge-rolling-stone-account-of-attack/2014/12/10/ef345e42-7fcb-11e4-81fd-8c4814dfa9d7_story.html

    1. larryg Avatar
      larryg

      wait – this is SO WRONG! We all know this is the fault of Obama and his Title IX feminists on a tear…

      1. DonR Avatar
        DonR

        Obama, yes. Feminists, no. The feminists are being played by the liberal chanting of campus rape culture, campus rape culture.

  15. DonR Avatar
    DonR

    Here’s another Obamnation … blaming the NFL for not confronting domestic violence.

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/dec/12/obama-blasts-nfls-old-boys-network/

    1. DonR Avatar
      DonR

      Meanwhile, the government’s approach to a grown man knocking out his fiancee on videotape?

      A pre-trial intervention with a mandatory anger management class.

      Of course the accused was a famous football player. So, instead of looking at perhaps 5 years in the slammer he was among the 1/2 of 1% where the domestic abuse is swept under the rug.

      Yeah, ODumbo – it’s the NFL that’s the problem.

      http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/11514871/judicial-figures-show-ray-rice-deal-offered-rarely

      1. larryg Avatar
        larryg

        so.. Obama’s Title IX nazi’s are causing UVA’s woes?

        and he’s sent them to interfere with the NFL also?

        I’d have to go back and find it and I’m pretty lazy sometimes but I’m pretty sure you used the word feminists in the same sentence with Obama – and you were not the only one trading in such conversational traffic.

        Next thing we’ll know is that Obama enabled Cosby and sicced the Va US Attorney and Judge on the McDonnells..

        OMG!

  16. newmann Avatar
    newmann

    Kudos to PG for hitting the nail squarely on the head. But DR also appears to be in some kind of bubble. Re the DoJ stats – (6.1 in 1000 for students vs. 7.6 in 1000 for nonstudents.) – with UVA student enrollment at 21,238 that’s a lot of potential assaults, wouldn’t you say?
    Yes, students should feel sooooo much safer knowing that non-students get raped at a 1.5 person rate per 1000 higher than students. Note the DoJ confirms what has been known for a very long time: that the vast majority of assaults don’t get reported (DoJ says 80%) and that students are less likely to report assaults than non-students. And you still don’t want to call it a culture of rape?

    For a look at some real journalism, I suggest posters take a look at this sobering piece that appeared last spring. It’s in depth, authoritative, funny, horrifying and sad all at the same time… http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/02/the-dark-power-of-fraternities/357580/

    1. James A. Bacon Avatar
      James A. Bacon

      Thanks for the reference to the Atlantic piece. Excellent reporting and, to my mind, pretty balanced. I’m converted to the idea that fraternities are part of the problem we’re discussing. There’s still the very ticklish issue, mentioned prominently in the article, of how fraternities can be controlled. People should enjoy the freedom of association. Abolishing fraternities would be a gross infringement of individual liberties. The other option is holding fraternities liable for actions that occur in frat houses, which might require changes to tort law.

      1. larryg Avatar
        larryg

        re: “right to associate” – if you provide the venue is that venue also a “right”?

        for instance.. there are laws that prohibit maintaining a “bawdy house” where I’ll admit the activities are illegal – but if you provide a venue for association and that venue makes it easier/more likely that illegal activities could take place?.. maybe I should have used “nuisance” laws instead to make the point.

    2. DonR Avatar
      DonR

      The DoJ report statistically shows that the odds of being raped outside of a college campus are higher than on a college campus. Even if the difference in unreported rapes was all reported thus would still be true. It’s just math.

      We’ve been told over and over that there is a culture if rape on campus. We’ve been told that 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 women are sexually assaulted during their college careers. Is this true or not?

      If what you are saying is that there are too many rapes (reported and unreported) in the US I would agree. If you say that despite being statistically safer on campus than off there are still too many rapes on campus I would agree.

      However, claiming that college campuses harbor an especially high level of danger for rape does not seem to be supported by the DoJ report.

      Like I said, it’s just math.

      1. larryg Avatar
        larryg

        yes but there is a reason why we have the phrase: ” Lies, damned lies, and statistics” in our parlance.

        Although I agree with your premise – partially – I would ask if there is an expectation of a difference in rape statistics – at a workplace like Exxon, or daycare center or a church, or even a K-12?

        Further – it’s not like we can’t really better characterize it.

        we could:

        1. – check it at private colleges
        2. – check it at overseas colleges
        3 – check it between our own US colleges – if we kept uniform comparable statistics.

        seems like to me – the first question is the one that Don has alluded to – but already concluded – prematurely .. in my view.

        the real question is – why don’t we have uniform protocols which collects standardized statistics – that are readily disclosed routinely?

        who would oppose doing that – ( other than the anti-govt wacko-birds).

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