Changing the Culture of Reading

carolyn_boone
Carolyn Boone reading with patient. Photo credit:

by James A. Bacon

Dr. Carolyn Boone is a pediatrician who serves a largely African-American patient base in Northside Richmond. In addition to providing check-ups and vaccinations, she participates in the Virginia “Reach Out and Read” program, the goal of which is to teach the joy of reading to young children — and maybe to their parents as well.

Participating doctors dispense books to children and advise parents on the importance of reading out loud. Even if babies just put the book in their mouth, that’s OK, says Boone in a Reach Out and Read video. Pretty soon, they notice the faces in the book. And then they want to be read to.

“You see the children come in. They run to the bookcase, and they want a book. And they want you to read the book, and they’re pulling their mothers to read a book,” says Boone. “In my office, I don’t hear the screaming anymore. It’s quiet.” Instead of yelling at the child to sit down, “momma may be sitting down with them and reading a book.”

Lower-income Virginians tend not to place a high value upon reading (although there are always exceptions). In many cases the parents may be barely literate themselves, and they rarely have the money, even if so inclined, to buy books for their children. The middle-class ritual of reading to children at bed-time is a foreign concept. Little wonder, then, that so many poor children are ill-prepared when they enter kindergarten.

A study just published by the National Bureau of Economic Research confirms what a mountain of previous studies have already concluded. Head Start pre-school enrichment programs can help poor children make dramatic cognitive gains, but the gains fade away in elementary school. Head Start can’t make up for an entire childhood raised in a cognitively poor environment. It can’t make up for parents who either don’t care, don’t know how, or don’t have the means to encourage their children to read.

There is nothing intrinsic to being poor that discourages reading. Raised in a log cabin, Abraham Lincoln famously read by firelight. Anyone, no matter how destitute, can check out books from the public library or school library. Reach Out and Read tries to change the culture of poverty not just by handing out books to children who can’t read them yet but by enlisting parents, usually mothers, to participate. For a young child, half the pleasure of reading is snuggling into a parent’s lap or cozying up in bed with mom or dad at night. The bonding experience reinforces the positive associations with reading.

Reach Out and Read, which distributes more than 215,000 books annually to more than 121,000 children across Virginia, claims that participating children enter kindergarten with better vocabularies, stronger language skills and a six-month developmental advantage over their peers.

School teachers can help teach a love of reading but they can’t do it by themselves. Reading has to take place at home. Parents have to get involved. If we, as a society, want poor children to acquire the reading skills needed to participate in a 21-century knowledge economy, we can’t expect the schools to do it all. We have to reach the parents, too. We have to change the culture of reading, which means changing the culture of poverty.


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55 responses to “Changing the Culture of Reading”

  1. I would celebrate this as well as school reading events .. where principals agree to dress up in silly outfits and get dunked if the kids all read more books.

    There are a wide variety of ways to get kids to read – beyond their parents influence.

    and you want ALL these ways …

    but you are not allowed to use the lack of a parent doing this – as a reason to abandon that child – no matter how many times you make this argument.

    We – do not abandon kids… because their parents fail… and it’s doubly dumb because your kids that you care so much about – are going to grow up to pay for those other kids entitlements and/or and prison.

    why is this so hard to understand?

    it’s morally wrong to make excuses for why you’d abandon children who no fault of their own have less than wonderful parents..

    and it’s economically wrong to do it also.

    and it’s wrong to not acknowledge that there are wide variations in neighborhood schools – academic performance of kids with parental failings.. how do we explain those wide variations ?

    are parents more failure in some neighborhoods than others ?

    again – I do NOT think you can save ALL of these kids –

    NOR do I think we should spend TONs more money

    but I do – strenuously object when half of the title 1 schools receive LESS money than the other non-title 1 schools.. that’s wrong.. and that’s likely as much as issue as “failed” parents.

    the “failed parent” narrative – by itself without acknowledging these other issues is … as equal in importance is what? why assert that poverty can ONLY be fixed by fixing poverty “culture”?

    this is like you don’t want to acknowledge the other issues..and want to go back and pin the blame on poverty culture..

    you cannot fix this problem by blaming poverty.. sorry

    1. LarryG: “You are not allowed to use the lack of a parent doing this – as a reason to abandon that child.”

      Who’s talking about abandoning any child? Not me. What I’m saying is that schools can’t do all the heavy lifting by themselves. We need to change the culture of poverty, and here’s a concrete example of something that can be done.

      1. no Jim – the way I see this is that you are giving the schools a carte blanche excuse to fail with these kids – an excuse to say we can’t fix this and a way for those who would also blame the failure on parents who fail to fulfill what you say they must do – or else we can’t fix it.

        you’re looking a generic for an excuse to walk away no matter what the failure rate is.

        why don’t you attribute some percentage to the parental failure?

        is it 10, 20, 30% or is it any/all failures.. ???

        if you say this is ONE PART – then tell me what part… instead of it becoming the generic excuse for all failure.

        1. Sorry, Larry, you’re just plain wrong. I’m not giving schools an excuse to walk away from the poor kids. I’m saying that the schools can’t do it alone.

          As for saying what percentage of the problem can be attributed to parental failure, that’s an absurd demand. I don’t have the data or the knowledge of statistics to draw such a conclusion.

          1. re: ” As for saying what percentage of the problem can be attributed to parental failure, that’s an absurd demand. I don’t have the data or the knowledge of statistics to draw such a conclusion.”

            then what percentage of the failure are you attributing to poverty culture?

            if two schools have similar demographics and one has a 20% failure rate and other 40% – what effect does poverty culture have ?

            If you do not know – why do you specify it as a primary cause – alone and one the schools cannot compensate for and you mention no other causes?

            how do I listen to what you say and know that all failure is not due to poverty culture?

            you’ve identified poverty culture as a cause of failure. It’s the only thing you have identified but you say you have no idea of how much influence it has other than to say the schools can’t fix it.

            how do you explain two schools with similar demographics and one fails accreditation and the other does not?

            do you blame poverty culture on the one that failed but say it did not affect the one that did not fail?

            you have one sound-bite idea here and no data .. and yet it’s the only idea that you talk about on this..

            what are the other causes of failure?

            you explanation as stated by you – can be asserted as THE primary cause of failure at any school .. and a reason to state that the school cannot fix it.

            what should the schools be doing to fix the non poverty culture failures?

          2. LifeOnTheFallLine Avatar
            LifeOnTheFallLine

            If it’s an absurd question then it’s an absurd assertion. If you can’t provide any proof other than “There were missing parents at my son’s school!” then maybe you should stop making the claim.

          3. you want to see something amazing and horrifying:

            English SOLS;

            Bedford Hills Elementary Black 40.82%
            Bedford Hills Elementary White 87.35%

            Dearington Elementary/Innovation Black 33.33%
            Dearington Elementary/Innovation White – not enough to count

            E.C. Glass High Black 65.10%
            E.C. Glass High White 91.77%

            Heritage Elementary Black 37.93%
            Heritage Elementary White 70.21%

            Linkhorne Elementary Black 44.09%
            Linkhorne Elementary White 77.08%

            Linkhorne Middle Black 32.17%
            Linkhorne Middle White 83.82%

            Paul Laurence Dunbar Middle for Innovation Black 48.78%
            Paul Laurence Dunbar Middle for Innovation White 87.22%

            Paul Munro Elementary Black 45.45%
            Paul Munro Elementary White 84.91%

            Perrymont Elementary Black 25.00%
            Perrymont Elementary White 56.82%

            Robert S. Payne Elementary Black 44.85%
            Robert S. Payne Elementary White 97.35%

            Sandusky Elementary Black 43.10%
            Sandusky Elementary White 75.36%

            Sandusky Middle Black 38.83%
            Sandusky Middle White 57.95%

            Sheffield Elementary School Black 55.43%
            Sheffield Elementary School White 70.91%

            T.C. Miller Elementary for Innovation Black 46.38%
            T.C. Miller Elementary for Innovation White 62.96%

            William M. Bass Elementary Black 52.33%
            William M. Bass Elementary White 66.67%

            now if you accept Jim Bacon’s explanation – it’s poor parenting – apparently on steroids…

      2. re: ” Who’s talking about abandoning any child? Not me. What I’m saying is that schools can’t do all the heavy lifting by themselves. ”

        what exactly is your alternative for the child – if the parent “fails”?

        what’s your alternative?

        it sounds like it’s walk away because you cannot do the “heavy lifting” ..

        wrong?

        1. re: ” re: ” Who’s talking about abandoning any child? Not me. What I’m saying is that schools can’t do all the heavy lifting by themselves. ”

          okay.. so what are you saying about what the schools do for the kids whose parents are “poverty culture” ?

          are you saying the schools cannot fix this?

      3. re: ” Who’s talking about abandoning any child? Not me. What I’m saying is that schools can’t do all the heavy lifting by themselves. We need to change the culture of poverty, and here’s a concrete example of something that can be done.”

        I ask you a again – what would you do in the meantime as you attempt to “change the culture of poverty”?

        are you going to let the kids that current are in school to not get the education they need while you spend time working on the “culture of poverty”.

        if you don’t provide kids with a good education and they grow up – what exactly have you accomplished in dealing with a “culture of poverty” while letting the kids in school right now – fail?

  2. sdrockw@hotmail.com Avatar
    sdrockw@hotmail.com

    Thank you Bacon’s Rebellion for the shout out to ROR!

  3. I would have to ask – is there a “number” for poverty culture that we can use in any neighborhood school – a specific number?

    or are we saying that any gap – no matter how much the gap is – whether it’s 10, or 20, 30, or more – is ALL attributable to “culture”?

    so if you have two schools with similar demographics – and one has a gap of 20% and the other 40% – both of them are due to poverty culture?

    OR is it 20% at both schools then the additional 20% is due to something else?

    so which is it? is there a fixed number for the influence of poverty culture or is it a catch-all for any percentage gap?

  4. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    OR is it 20% at both schools then the additional 20% is due to something else?

    Cognitive ability.

    Not all students are the same.

    1. re: ” Not all students are the same.”

      for the entire school compared to another?

      would you see a similar effect for the non-ED population of the schools?

      what would you say if a school claimed that the entire reason for the gap was poverty culture or similar?

      would you believe that – that is the primary cause of the gap – no matter the gap – with the balance of it attributable to “cognitive ability” ?

      the school would say – “this is something – we cannot fix” and the voucher schools should handle.

  5. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    Answers,
    Yes, Yes, Fire the Superintendent, your question doesn’t make sense.

    1. I’m asking if all schools that missed accreditation or have low SOL scores can blame it on poverty culture and “cognitive differences” and say they cannot do any better – and that’s the end of the issue?

      Fairfax County has 20 elementary schools that did not achieve full accreditation.

      Are those 20 schools encountering poverty culture and cognitive differences which are not fixable and those schools will continue to fail accreditation because they cannot fix poverty culture?

      is that true?

      if it is not – how do you know the difference between the schools that fail because of poverty culture and the ones that are just using that as an excuse so the don’t have to do anything?

  6. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    Answers,
    Compound question…please simplify, No, Is what true?, Those schools need to factor in the IQ of the students, all students are different. Read the study that JB mentioned in his original post

    1. how do you know which schools have unfixable poverty cultures and which schools are using that as an excuse to do nothing?

      I’ve read the study – you’re avoiding the question like JIim is.

      what the study CONFIRMED is that Head Start makes a difference but if you do not continue it in K-5 – the kids fall back.

      the study CONFIRMS that you CAN “fix” poverty culture as long as you continue the effort.

  7. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    Nobody knows…not even you!

    Head start is just that. The beginning. Then state programs kick in.

    1. if nobody knows then why do we say poverty culture is a cause?

      if state programs “kick in” then why are the results so disparate between schools ? cognitive differences that affect only those suffering from poverty culture?

  8. HCJ – do you attribute poverty culture and cognitive differences to the performance of Lynchburg Schools:

    Bedford Hills Elementary Accredited with Warning
    Dearington Elementary/Innovation Accredited with Warning
    E.C. Glass High Accredited with Warning
    Heritage Elementary Accredited with Warning
    Heritage High Accredited with Warning
    Linkhorne Elementary Accredited with Warning
    Linkhorne Middle Accredited with Warning
    Paul Laurence Dunbar Middle for Innovation Accredited with Warning
    Paul Munro Elementary Fully Accredited
    Perrymont Elementary Accredited with Warning
    Robert S. Payne Elementary Accredited with Warning
    Sandusky Elementary Fully Accredited
    Sandusky Middle To Be Determined
    Sheffield Elementary Accredited with Warning
    T.C. Miller Elementary for Innovation Accredited with Warning
    William M. Bass Elementary Accredited with Warning

    is this school system representative of the the things you are citing?

  9. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    Yes. What am saying is that all children are different. All schools are different. What I have said is that the achievement gap between our schools, black vs. white is the 4th highest in the state and that the black student’s average SOLs are the second worst in the state of those divisions that reported all 5 categories. If our E.D black students are doing poorer than those of the locality next door, then we need to look at IQs and if they are the same, then either the teachers or the culture is suspect.

    Is this a result of funding disparities between buildings? Absolutely not!

    1. re: ” Is this a result of funding disparities between buildings? Absolutely not!”

      can you demonstrate that? can you show the funding and staffing experience for each school?

      I’m not buying the “kids are different” explanation when we’re talking about hundred/ thousands of kids on an aggregate basis.

      you cannot legitimately explain how two entire schools are “different” in the way you claim unless you want to show me an aggregate IQ difference.

      you do not have the right – to claim certain things are causes and not disclose them.

      you are accountable. Even Jim B would find your attitude wrong as will a lot of the public.

      the entire premise of the SOLs and NCLB is invalid according to you.

  10. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    Cognitive ability is different for all, rich, poor, black or white. All students are different.

    1. not on an aggregate basis.

      unless you can prove it.

      according to you SOLS are invalid… for measure schools, right?

      13 out of 16 schools in Lynchburg should not be accredited with warning because “all kids are different”.

      right?

    2. at one of the two schools in Lynchburg ( Paul Munro Elementary) that was fully accredited – here are the
      pass rates for English:

      white: 85%
      black: 45%
      ED 56%

      are you saying that the reason for this school performance is that “all kids are different”?

  11. LifeOnTheFallLine Avatar
    LifeOnTheFallLine

    So, you’ve been presented with surveys and studies that show:

    – Black people value a post-secondary degree more than their white peers.
    – Poor people want to go to college more than their wealthier peers.
    – People in the lowest quintile spend more on educational enrichment than people in the top.

    Now here’s a survey from Pew that shows black Americans are more likely than whites to have read a book in the past year, and among those that did read in the last year whites and blacks read almost the exact same amount of books (12 vs. 13). (http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/01/16/a-snapshot-of-reading-in-america-in-2013/)

    Yet you keep positing that it’s cultural values that matter, even though you can’t quantify it at all. And you haven’t pointed at any legitimate study that does.

    But if it is true, then certainly poor kids who make all the right choices should do better then rich kids who make all the wrong ones, right? Except it doesn’t turn out that way. Rich kids who didn’t go to college are 2.5 times as likely to end up rich compared to poor kids who did go to college (http://mattbruenig.com/2013/06/13/whats-more-important-a-college-degree-or-being-born-rich/).

    And here’s a little more food for thought on the idea that poor people have terrible values (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/10/28/five-stereotypes-about-poor-families-and-education/).

    It’s okay to let it go, man.

    1. somehow, somewhere – we have to all agree that we do not want a country with more and more entitlements – nor do we want a country with more and more folks in prison.

      we can blame culture til the cows come home but those who do get good educations are going to grow up themselves to deal with the same problem if we don’t find a way to change course.

      the way you actually develop a culture of reading – is with those kids – not their parents – it’s too late for their parents.

      I find it bizarre for Jim to argue that we have to fix the culture of reading and at the same time say the schools cannot do it with the kids – as if those kids don’t grow up to become like their parents if we don’t do break the cycle.

      I’m starting to see how the right – ends up with no solutions -whether it’s health care, immigration or education.

      they have no solutions other than saying “we’re not in favor of anything – we have no solutions to propose”. We’re on our way to becoming a 3rd world country and there is no way to stop it.

      the basic truth here is – you can blame culture and say that it’s too much for schools to deal with =- but you cant walk away from it – because it will follow you. You’re going to have more kids in poverty – growing up to be put more of them in prison.. the problem is going to follow you even if you say its not your fault.

      It should not matter that we think it is “unfair” for us to have to put more resources into educating some kinds of kids – because we’re going to be the ones who suffer from it – if we don’t take that responsibility to deal with it.

      1. Larry, You are mistaking the fact that you do not like my solutions with not having any solutions. You do that a lot.

        Also, you consistently misrepresent my views. To solve the problem of educational under-achievement, I say we need to move on many fronts. Wednesday, I made the argument for more innovation in schools, with more experimentation, testing and measuring. Yesterday, I offered a positive example of what can be done to change the culture of reading.

        You poo-poo those ideas then accuse me of offering no solutions?

        1. re: ” Larry, You are mistaking the fact that you do not like my solutions with not having any solutions. You do that a lot.”

          what you propose are not solutions Jim – they are excuses for the status quo.
          IMHO.

          “Also, you consistently misrepresent my views. To solve the problem of educational under-achievement, I say we need to move on many fronts. ”

          but you ignore the disparities present right now -why?

          “Wednesday, I made the argument for more innovation in schools, with more experimentation, testing and measuring. Yesterday, I offered a positive example of what can be done to change the culture of reading.”

          cart before the horse – advocating experimentation when there is proof that we are not equitably allocating resources is ignoring the more serious issue – and rearranging deck chairs..

          when I see you hit hard at the existing disparities – AS Well as the OTHER things.. I would support you but you essentially deny the existing disparities and pretend that other things on in play – again IMHO.

          You poo-poo those ideas then accuse me of offering no solutions?

          yes- because – again you ignore the most egregious problems that need addresses and support window-dressing ideas..

          it’s a no brainer that kids need to read more but you ignore all the ways that we can implement to get them to read more – and go straight for the “bad parent” excuse..

          where is your plan to get kids to read more if their parents won’t do it?

          you say ” the schools can’t do this” – but they can and they do and we know it works – if the funds for Title 1 are not re-directed to other purposes.

          why do you ignore these things that are signs of a broken system that need to be fixed?

          you offer no solutions here.. you blame culture and say schools can’t fix it and then support ‘experimentation” and vouchers..

          have you ever – once – commented on why there are disparities in reading performance among the “poor” at different schools? why is that happening?

          please tell me why its happening and how you’d fix it before talking about experimentation and more parental support of “reading’.

          you can read your butt off but if your school is diverting Title 1 resources you are screwed.

  12. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    Well it sure isn’t because more money was expended on the white students!

    I prefer to compare our schools that have similar racial, E.D. and pupil teacher ratios. For example, Linkhorne Elementary and Perrymont Elementary. Both are almost statistically identical except for the SOLs.
    Linkhorne average of the Composite Passing rate Black E. D. 62%
    Perrymont average of the Composite Passing rate Black E. D. 37%

    Not only are all kids different, so are all educators. It is probable that some are teaching to the test.

    If you don’t think culture and cognitive ability are the main factors in the variable SOL scores, why then do the females, both black and white, score higher? Do we spend more money on females?

    1. HCJ – are you saying that the concept of measuring SOLs is flawed and cannot account for “all kids are different” scores?

      how do you account for the 30 and 40 point difference between black scores and white scores?

      How would you explain the variation in black only scores between the schools:

      Bedford Hills Elem Black Eng Read 40.82%
      Dearington Elem/Innovation Black Eng Read 33.33% 41K av sal
      Heritage Elem Black Eng Read 37.93%
      Linkhorne Elem Black Eng Read 44.09%
      Paul Munro Elem Black Eng Read 45.45%
      Perrymont Elem Black Eng Read 25.00% 43K av sal
      Robert S. Payne Elem Black Eng Read 44.85%
      Sandusky Elem Black Eng Read 43.10%
      Sheffield Elem School Black Eng Read 55.43% 47K av sal
      T.C. Miller Elem Black Eng Read 46.38%
      William M. Bass Elem Black Eng Read 52.33%

      kids ARE different but when you aggregate scores for hundreds of them from each school and compare to other schools what accounts for significant variation in scores?

      how come blacks in a school of 231 kids have an average reading pass score of 34%

      and the average reading score for blacks in a school of 364 is 25%

      and the average reading score for blacks in a school o f 513 is 55%

      these are aggregate scores – not “each kid is different” scores

      to what do you attribute the dramatic differences in reading scores for many black students between different schools?

  13. Cville Resident Avatar
    Cville Resident

    Very good post, Mr. Bacon.

  14. We’re rehashing a lot of issues I covered back in December when writing about Henrico County school disparities. Here’s what I wrote:

    Average teacher salaries in Henrico vary within a fairly narrow band — $44,482 for Sandston Elementary being the lowest and $51,371 at Godwin High School being the highest.

    While some “poor” schools have higher average salaries than some “rich” schools, overall, there is a correlation between average pay and poverty level. Roughly speaking, teachers at schools with the fewest poor kids have annual salaries about $2,000 higher than teacher at schools with the most poor kids — a pay differential between 4% and 5% higher.

    However, those numbers do not include incentive pay. In 2010 Henrico County won a five-year, $16 million federal grant to pay bonuses to teachers and administrators at schools with among the poorest student bodies in the county. That program, open only to teachers in core subjects at eight schools, pays teachers up to $8,000 annually and administrators up to $10,000 when students show superior academic performance.

    LarryG wants to attribute the differences in school performance to differences in the experience and effectiveness of the teachers. As the data above show, that may be a factor. Fine, let’s address it. But let’s not pretend that fixing the “inexperienced teacher” problem, if it’s possible to fix at all, will close much of performance gap. A little, perhaps. The problem is much bigger than the distribution of experienced teachers.

    1. re:

      ” We’re rehashing a lot of issues I covered back in December when writing about Henrico County school disparities. Here’s what I wrote:

      Average teacher salaries in Henrico vary within a fairly narrow band — $44,482 for Sandston Elementary being the lowest and $51,371 at Godwin High School being the highest.”

      average salaries when you included Master Degrees in the mix are huge.

      “While some “poor” schools have higher average salaries than some “rich” schools, overall, there is a correlation between average pay and poverty level. Roughly speaking, teachers at schools with the fewest poor kids have annual salaries about $2,000 higher than teacher at schools with the most poor kids — a pay differential between 4% and 5% higher.”

      and if you read the reports – you Know that – that 4-5% is significant if Title 1 schools need specialists with Masters Degrees.

      “However, those numbers do not include incentive pay. In 2010 Henrico County won a five-year, $16 million federal grant to pay bonuses to teachers and administrators at schools with among the poorest student bodies in the county. That program, open only to teachers in core subjects at eight schools, pays teachers up to $8,000 annually and administrators up to $10,000 when students show superior academic performance.”

      and where is the report that details results? 4 years later – you STILL have disparities and schools that do not get full accreditation. More important than that – why do you think the Feds (whom you seem to think is illegitimate in education issues) should fund this instead of Henrico?

      “LarryG wants to attribute the differences in school performance to differences in the experience and effectiveness of the teachers.”

      no – it’s NOT ME – it’s the documented FACTS that YOU – IGNORE!

      “As the data above show, that may be a factor. Fine, let’s address it. But let’s not pretend that fixing the “inexperienced teacher” problem, if it’s possible to fix at all, will close much of performance gap. A little, perhaps. The problem is much bigger than the distribution of experienced teachers.”

      as opposed to what? trying to get parents to teach their kids to read?

      you discount the distribution of experienced teachers. the evidence says otherwise. The studies say otherwise. The disparities between schools with the same demographics say otherwise.

      have you ever responded to WHY schools with similar demographics have wildly disparate reading pass rates for blacks?

      do you seriously think that these disparities are due to parents not teaching their kids to read? If that were the case – then why are there such disparities?

      I’ve posted these disparities for Henrico, Fairfax and Lynchburg – and your what is the explanation?

      you don’t think it is teacher experience (I think you are dead wrong) but I would certainly listen to an alternative explanation beyond “we need to experiment” and get poverty parents to read to their kids.

      come on Jim Bacon – you seem to be doing everything you can to evade the central issue here …. why are there disparities between neighborhood schools with similar demographics?

      1. Jim –
        why do you not advocate for finding out before you essentially discount the disparities because you doubt salary as the reason why? The disparities still exist even if you don’t think salaries are the cause yet you then dismiss the entire issue – as if it’s not an issue because you have dismissed it.

        why do you eliminate a cause and then essentially say because that was eliminated as a cause – that the disparities do not need an explanation and you move on to parental reading – which does not explain the disparities at all?

        these are disparities between schools and one would presume that the lack of parental reading would not vary by school -yet you seem to totally discount the disparities all together.

        if you don’t think the disparities are due to salaries – then how do you dismiss the disparities all together without find a cause for them?

  15. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    LG,
    You say “but I do – strenuously object when half of the title 1 schools receive LESS money than the other non-title 1 schools.. that’s wrong.. and that’s likely as much as issue as “failed” parents.”

    Do you have any Virginia stats that verify this?
    Do you have any local stats to verify this?

    You indicated that this info must be available in order to comply with Fed regs. Have you asked your local Superintendent to provide per school expenditures and if he refuses why don’t you file a FYI?
    I think that maybe in Virginia more money is spent in the schools that need it the most.

    1. re: ” LG,
      You say “but I do – strenuously object when half of the title 1 schools receive LESS money than the other non-title 1 schools.. that’s wrong.. and that’s likely as much as issue as “failed” parents.”

      Do you have any Virginia stats that verify this?” no
      “Do you have any local stats to verify this?” no

      “You indicated that this info must be available in order to comply with Fed regs. ”

      “Have you asked your local Superintendent to provide per school expenditures and if he refuses why don’t you file a FYI?”

      no school in Va that I know of provides this voluntarily but we have Federal studies that confirm that it is going on

      “I think that maybe in Virginia more money is spent in the schools that need it the most.”

      how would you know?

      you have performance disparities between schools with similar demographics.

      what would you attribute this to if not differences in staffing?

      do you know teachers that will refuse to be assigned to the tougher schools?

      are you aware that the tougher schools typically get assigned to the newly graduated because the veteran teachers will not accept such assignments unless they have no other options?

      I have filed FOIAs before but not for this – and lately I have heard that the schools charge a lot of money – to provide what they already have in electronic format.

      They are not going to give up the data without making you go through a lot of grief and money…

      that’s not how you fix this problem.

      I start by pointing out the disparities between neighborhood schools with similar demographics.

      your response of “different kids” just is not credible when we’re talking about the aggregate scores of a hundred of more kids..

      Jim’s response that more parental reading could help – just totally ignores the disparities.. he claims – like you that wages cannot be the cause – well – okay – but then he walks away.. not wanting to know what does cause the disparities.

      the schools have the data – they are not about to give it up unless legislation or regulations require it.

      what DOE has done – is protect the schools from having to disclose that data – but at the same time shows their failures to get fully accredited.

      that’s a powerful motivator for most schools though apparently not in Lynchburg where most of the schools do not get accredited.

      but up our way and I’m sure in Henrico there are parents asking questions even if they do not know what the reasons are.

      the SOLs totally suck because in Virginia – you aggregate them at the district level – and we’re talking 70 point for pass rate – and we have schools – like the one I pointed out in your district where whites have 85% pass rate and blacks a 45% pass rate in the same school… something is bad wrong when that school – got fully accredited.

  16. Paul Munro Elementary – Fully Accredited

    English Performance
    Black – 45%
    White – 85%

    Math performance
    Black – 39%
    White – 91%

    and you say this: ” I think that maybe in Virginia more money is spent in the schools that need it the most.”

    really?

    how do you know?

    when you see 40% and 52% differences between black and white
    scores in the same school.. what do you attribute this difference to – poverty culture?

  17. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    Thursday night LCS held a program to discuss the poor achievement for black students after their dismal SOL scores were released. The paper reported about 100 showed up but that included former teachers and current staff. 100. LCS has over 4,000 black students. 100 people showed up. No amount of money in the classroom will fix this problem.
    http://www.newsadvance.com/news/local/residents-share-hopes-frustrations-about-the-experience-of-black-students/article_ded34134-3fa8-11e4-8d4e-001a4bcf6878.html

    1. HCJ – thanks for the link..

      do you know what Title 1 is and how it works with respect to personnel?

      read the article and a good bit of the discussion talked about advanced classes.

      There is no hope for kids who fail SOL reading and math in elementary school to be capable of taking advanced programs ..

      Apparently – at the meeting – the specifics of the pass rates for blacks – at the neighborhood schools – and compared to other schools in Va was not made available or else the crowd would have been irate.

      Lynchburg has a problem.

      virtually no other school system in Va that I have seen has such a huge disparity between white and black pass rates for read and math – at the same school.

      I don’t know the fact – but this looks like “tracking”… where kids are grouped according to ability – which can be a good thing – if the lower groups get additional help – like from a Title 1 instructor… I note that even Munro that made accreditation – had more than a 50% fail rate for black – and yet it is not designated as a Title 1 school that gets Federal Title 1 resources – i.e. Instructors with Masters Degrees in reading for teaching to at-risk populations.

      It’s just unbelievable to me that the state will accredit a school that has more than 50% of it’s blacks failing reading and math.

  18. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    I agree with your statement…Lynchburg has a problem.
    School Board discussed SOLs, the only black member spoke about the gap, Super said it would be discussed at the meeting. I don’t put much faith in the reports in the newspaper so I don’t know if they were discussed or not.
    I guess you saw we have hired a” cultural” administrator.
    Unfortunately the law was changed about the state taking over failed schools. Possibly they could turn around some of these. My teacher friends tell me that even at PTOs, nobody shows up.

    1. Gawd – I can’t believe the change in tenor – but totally welcome it – on my side also..

      I saw the thing about cultural administrator and and cringed … they’re undoubtedly putting one of the failed group adults in charge of the issue now, eh? So if the Cultural Administrative fails to “fix” the problem it proves it cannot be fixed?

      I’m off to figure out how a schools gets to be designated as Title 1 or qualifies for Title1 resources or Title 1 focus.

      Munro – to be a Title 1 priority school- you have to be in the lowest 5% or some such – got to verify it because even though it is a schoolwide Title 1 school, it is not a Title 1 priority school.

      Munro is about 50-50 on the race and 50% free and reduced lunch.

      if you want to compare Monro to other schools in Lynchburg

      http://www.schooldigger.com/go/VA/compare/0234000963/schoolcompare.aspx

      Title I Priority: No Title I Focus: Yes but it is a school-wide
      Title 1 program which means it should have addition Title 1 special staff which I assume is more useful than a Cultural specialist.

  19. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    From the newspaper.
    The subject of accreditation arose Tuesday night at the school board meeting for Lynchburg City Schools. April Bruce, director of testing in the Lynchburg division, presented a report detailing the division’s performance on SOL tests over the years. Board members commented on disparities in performance among groups of pupils, including black students and students under economic hardship.
    Board Chairwoman Regina Dolan-Sewell suggested there’s a particularly strong influence coming from economic struggles.
    “I think it’s important to look at race, but there are also issues around economic circumstances,” she said.

    From the VDOE
    “Teachers in these Title I schools (that receive special recognition) challenge their students every day to meet the same expectations we have for students in more affluent communities,” Superintendent of Public Instruction Patricia I. Wright said. “They believe in their students and reject the idea that family incomes predetermine educational outcomes.”

    I guess that is why no LCS are on the list!

    1. “From the newspaper.
      The subject of accreditation arose Tuesday night at the school board meeting for Lynchburg City Schools. April Bruce, director of testing in the Lynchburg division, presented a report detailing the division’s performance on SOL tests over the years. Board members commented on disparities in performance among groups of pupils, including black students and students under economic hardship.”

      but not at the forum for parents?

      “Board Chairwoman Regina Dolan-Sewell suggested there’s a particularly strong influence coming from economic struggles.
      “I think it’s important to look at race, but there are also issues around economic circumstances,” she said.”

      finding out about Title 1 – Monro is a schoolwide title 1 school – as opposed to a focus school which means it gets Title 1 funds to spend – schoolwide so obviously they are NOT targeting the funds at the low groups or if they are – it’s failing miserably.

      It’s hard to see how a school that is fully accredited with 1/2 of it’s students failing reading and math but it does because the pass rates for subgroup that pass are so high – so as to compensate for the horrible low numbers for the low groups.

      they happen to be distinguished by race with the whites scoring high and the blacks scoring low ..

      I’m guessing that Monro tracks students into class groups and the low groups are not getting any more resources than the other higher performing classes.. My teacher friend believes this also.. there are few other explanations about why you’d have such huge gaps in one school between whites and blacks (other than “culture”).

      all but one of the Lynchburg schools are schoolwide Title 1 schools which says that they are getting extra money for additional staff from the Feds but all but two are not fully accredited.

      That’s pretty amazing.. virtually all Title 1 and most of them in the lowest 10% of schools in Virginia.

      “From the VDOE
      “Teachers in these Title I schools (that receive special recognition) challenge their students every day to meet the same expectations we have for students in more affluent communities,” Superintendent of Public Instruction Patricia I. Wright said. “They believe in their students and reject the idea that family incomes predetermine educational outcomes.”

      I guess that is why no LCS are on the list!”

      LCS? whatever – talk is talk.. basically.. anyone can sit down and carefully wordsmith something to describe a certain situation.

      The numbers tell the truth but even the numbers can be submerged …

  20. I’m not about blame here even though my assessments tend to be harsh.

    I think there are schools that succeed at educating many – not all – of the economically disadvantaged, one-parent kids, ESOL, and black kids.

    we KNOW that if they go to Head Start and then in elementary they actually get Title 1 staff resources that it makes a difference.

    the frustration is when the school gets additional resources – Title 1 resources and it not only does not have success, it looks like Title 1 made no difference at all!

    look at the scores for Dearington Elementary – reading and math:

    http://www.schooldigger.com/go/VA/compare/0234000963/schoolcompare.aspx

  21. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    the frustration is when the school gets additional resources – Title 1 resources and it not only does not have success, it looks like Title 1 made no difference at all!
    You don’t know that because you don’t know how well/poor they would have scored without those funds.
    Title 1 funds are a drop in the bucket compared to all the other funding schools get.
    You need not keep referring me to any comparisons of LCS schools…I have them all…thanks

    1. title 1 performance with Lynchburg schools – compared to other schools in Va with similar demographics …. black and ED…

      is there something unique with respect to LSC compared to other schools with similar demographics?

      have you looked at SchoolDigger? were you aware of it?

      where do you think they are getting all that data that is not present on DOE nor LCS?

  22. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    I don’t have time for all your questions, I do have a life. However I will tell you again. Yes, our children are unique, all different. So are our educators. I have followed SchoolDigger and Great Schools for years. All data is public info, you just need to know where to look.
    I wish you well in your quest to find out per building expenditures and how that relates to academic performance.

    1. re: knowing where to look

      why is this information not provided by the school district and DOE?

      how would you expect parents to become more involved and better advocates of their children’s education if the school district and DOE do not provide this data in a succinct and easy to use format?

  23. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    As evidenced by the low turnout, most parents are not involved at the school or district level and some maybe not even on an individual level.

    You should be forewarned that some SchoolDigger info is incomplete. for example the number of teachers and thus the pupil teacher ratios do not accurately mirror the VDOE data.

    1. HCJ –

      the “problems” you cite are caused by a lack of disclosure and accountability for your school system.

      I”m quite sure if the parents were provided the info that shows the disparities in your system to the community – all H E double L would break loose.

      And for your system and DOE to provide almost nothing compared to SchoolDigger and point fingers at SchoolDigger is similarly just plain wrong.

      Your school system has had the opportunity – all along – to make School Digger – irrelevant – no need to go to 3rd party sites to get basic info about a local school system.

      don’t you think it’s pretty hypocritical to point fingers at Schooldigger when Schools and DOE don’t come anywhere close to providing a similar level of info to your own local community?

      seriously.

      go to ANY school or ANY school district website and look for the SOL scores and comparative data for the school system – .. where is it?

      we had to have a law to force municipal water systems to provide to consumers the performance of their system.

      we need to have – unfortunately – a law to force the school systems to post their SOL scores … in a readily available format that allows people in the community to fully understand your performance relative to other schools and school systems int he state.

      this is abhorrent…

  24. Hill City Jim Avatar
    Hill City Jim

    we need to have – unfortunately – a law .
    Well why don’t you get your representative to introduce one?

    don’t you think it’s pretty hypocritical to point fingers at Schooldigger
    SchoolDigger is incorrect…this is not hypocritical. If you choose to use their data, do so knowing this.
    What “this” is abhorrent?
    Because you think you know it all, when somebody questions you they must be ignorant or racist. How about we make a bet, a big bet, about SchoolDigger data?
    Call my bluff, I dare you!

    1. re:

      ” we need to have – unfortunately – a law .
      Well why don’t you get your representative to introduce one?

      it will take more than me – and it will have to be done at the Federal level

      “don’t you think it’s pretty hypocritical to point fingers at Schooldigger
      SchoolDigger is incorrect…this is not hypocritical. If you choose to use their data, do so knowing this.”

      as opposed to trying to use the schools data that they do not provide to the local community ?

      What “this” is abhorrent?
      Because you think you know it all, when somebody questions you they must be ignorant or racist.”

      I do not think I ever said racist – but I think you have a big problem with the disparities in performance between the two races – that we do not see in a lot of other schools in Va – not on that scale.

      “How about we make a bet, a big bet, about SchoolDigger data?
      Call my bluff, I dare you!”

      why?

      what’s the point here..??? do you know where schooldigger gets their data?

      I actually cross check what I can between schooldigger and the DOE report cards and SOL builder..

      the most damning specs for LCS comes from the later two sites and not a word from your system to the community it serves. That’s abhorrent in my view.

      you owe your community a proper accounting of the scores… if you are going to have forums to talk about accreditation. did you do that?

    2. HCJ – and others –

      I think each school and each school system owes the taxpayers and parents an accounting of the performance of the schools on the SOLS and perhaps some of you know of schools that actually provide this.

      I have yet to find one that does … but I admit I have not checked every one of them.

      The purpose of No Child Left Behind – and the SOLs – was to hold the schools accountable – and yet in the schools I have looked at – they do not appear in a prominent place and on the ones I’ve dug into.. I have yet to find one that posts the SOLs ..for that school

      I also cannot find the SOLs for all the schools posted on the District Web site in a tabular list form – like is provided by school-digger or even a link to the state DOE report card for that school.

      so I have a request for those reading this –

      go to the schools that serve your neighborhood and see if you can find the SOL scores and accreditation status.

      and then go to the district school site and see if you can find a listing of all schools with the SOL and accreditation info.

      then please post back here with what you found – and an opinion.

      thanks.

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