Can America Import Scandinavian-Style Socialism?

debunking_utopia

by James A. Bacon

In the never-ending debate that rages in the comments section of Bacon’s Rebellion, defenders of an extensive welfare state often refer to the success of the Nordic countries — Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Norway — as proof that the United States “blue state” governance model can succeed. The Nordics combine high state spending, high taxes, generous welfare benefits and leading-edge green environmental policies with a high standard of living. The Nordics have among the highest per capita incomes of any country in the world, they have low levels of income inequality, and they rank among the highest countries globally in surveys of happiness. Liberal icons from President Barack Obama and economist Paul Krugman wonder, why can’t America be more like Sweden?

The key to Scandinavian success, according to Kima Sanandaji, Kurdish-Iranian by ethnic origin who migrated as a child to Sweden, is that the Nordic countries are small, socially cohesive societies with shared values well adopted to a mixed capitalist-socialist economy. As Sanandaji writes in his book, “Debunking Utopia,” “High levels of trust, a strong work ethic, civic participation, social cohesion, personal responsibility, and families values are long-standing features of Nordic society that predate the welfare state.”

Believers in expansive government visualize look to Sweden and Denmark as examples of how their policies would turn out. But why not to Greece or Venezuela? The outcome of the socialist experiment, Sanandaji argues, depends largely upon the cultural setting in which it takes place.

There are a number of points people should bear in mind when they hold up Nordic countries as examples for America to emulate.

  • The Nordic Four experienced their strongest economic growth in the century before World War I, by which time they had become among the most affluent countries in the world. Their rate of economic growth slowed as they embraced moderate socialism, and then slowed even more as they committed heavily to the socialist model between 1970 and 1990. In response to economic stagnation, all four countries have dialed back the size and scope of government since their socialist heyday.
  • While the Nordics still maintain generous welfare states (though less generous than before), they embrace free market principles for their economies, exposing their corporations to global competition. Their economies rate among the most “free” in the world.
  • As evidence that culture is a driving force behind Scandinavian success, immigrants from the Nordic countries are among the most prosperous ethnic groups in the United States. They share many of the same cultural characteristics as their Scandinavian cousins. Not surprisingly, Americans of Nordic descent have even higher incomes on average than their Scandinavian counterparts, but comparably low rates of poverty and social dysfunction.
  • The Nordic countries have experimented with extending their welfare-state model to minorities, mainly from the Middle East, and it hasn’t worked — indeed it has fared so poorly that the Nordic nations are experiencing a backlash against immigrants. Over the past couple of decades, ethnic minorities in all four countries, Sweden most prominently, have gotten caught in the welfare trap. Having difficulty assimilating to Nordic society, they experience high levels of unemployment, poverty, crime and discontent. The same ethnicities fare better in the United States.

“Social outcomes are to a large extent determined by the choices that people make, which in turn is influenced by culture,” writes Sanandaji. “A country cannot just copy the policies of another country and hope to gain the same social outcomes.”

As an example, he points to life expectancy. Critics of the U.S. health care system point to the higher life expectancy of the Nordic countries with their systems of socialized medicine. But the health of Nordic peoples can be traced in good measure to their healthy lifestyles.

“Instead of trying to copy Nordic policies, why not copy their health lifestyles,” he asks. “Wouldn’t Americans be healthier if they exercised more, took hikes in nature, walked to the store on occasion (as Nordic people often do) instead of driving, and ate less junk food and more fish? … Perhaps some Americans would like to continue having an unsound diet and hope that Nordic-style social democracy can improve their health. I very much doubt that would be the case.”


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37 responses to “Can America Import Scandinavian-Style Socialism?”

  1. LarrytheG Avatar

    I would not advocate Scandinavian style tax and welfare and models for the US to follow – but do point them out as examples that apparently do work in response to those who pick other models that “fail”.

    A “healthy lifestyle” will only take you so far – if you get cancer and don’t have preventative care from regular primary care. Beyond that calling one whole country “healthy” and comparing to another as “unhealthy” is not really on point either as anything other than a gross generalization – as, for instance, MANY OECD countries, most of them have longer life expectancies than us as well as lower infant deaths..

    Our problem is we simply do not want to accept the reality that the best countries in the world – are the ones with significant govt involvement in human needs…. that we treat as welfare state entitlement goodies.

    It’s even got a name: Human Development Index

    The Human Development Index (HDI) is a composite statistic of life expectancy, education, and per capita income indicators, which are used to rank countries into four tiers of human development. A country scores higher HDI when the lifespan is higher, the education level is higher, the GDP per capita is higher, the fertility rate is lower, and the inflation rate is lower.

    http://www.raonline.ch/images/bt/dev/UNDP_HDI2011BT.gif

  2. Thanks for this post, JB. The general theme needs airing, and I’m sure there are readers wincing at the Nordic stereotypes you cite to make the general theme hang together. Shades of Lake Wobegon. But it’s not a declaration of prejudice to say, in my experience you are quite right that Nordic style socialized services work only within a Nordic style culture, constrained by self-imposed scruples as much as rules enforced by bureaucrats. I’m also not confident that future generations in those same Nordic countries, or their American cousins, will continue to adhere to those self-imposed constraints upon potential abuse of their social system’s generosities.

    1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
      TooManyTaxes

      I think Acbar’s summary is right on and Les’ points are as well. The Nordic Countries have a very homogeneous population. I’d hazard to guess they believe they are taxing themselves for themselves and not for “outsiders.”

      I had my DNA tested by Ancestry. They provide a lot of background information. The typical Scandinavian has 84% of his or her DNA coming from Scandinavian sources. In contrast, the figures for Western Europe are 48%; Great Britain 60%; Eastern Europe 72%; Iberian Peninsula 51%; and Italy-Greece 72%.

      It’s quite possible humans beings are less willing to sacrifice for perceived “outsiders,” especially in a period of long-term stagnation in personal income.

  3. Les Schreiber Avatar
    Les Schreiber

    I spent my final year of grad school at the Europe Institute at the University of Amsterdam.My tuition for the year amounted to about $275. Local students at the university paid no tuition. A much smaller percentage of secondary school; graduates went to university than is the case in the US. Once a student was admitted to a “faculty” ,say economics,.he or she was good there until a PhD. was awarded.
    In Dutch history the greatest division in society was between Catholics and the Reformers.This was settled long ago.In more recent times you do see an anti-immigrant party there,trying to protect their social welfare system from those who aren’t “Dutch”.
    I was in Holland during the 1970/71 academic year. Memories of the Second World War were still strong.The winer of 1944-45 is called the “Starving Winter” As the Germans retreated that stole everything they could. They even tore up the tram tracks for the steel they contained.I have always believed that the privations that were experienced by the Dutch was one of the reasons behind the Dutch welfare state and their very “liberal”views on other social issues.

  4. LarrytheG Avatar

    It’s not just the Nordic countries… it’s all of Europe, Japan, Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong, Australia, New Zealand and a few others – that – generally

    1. – tax everyone for universal health care to their citizens
    2. – tax everyone to provide education to their citizens
    3. – tax everyone for infrastructure like roads, rail, transit, electricity, water, sewer
    4. – have significant regulation to protect citizens from the worst abuses of the free market and to limit profits on things like drugs and other fundamental human needs.

    Again – I’m not advocating for or against – what I’m trying to do is make sure that we do recognize and acknowledge what the realities are in terms of what these govts do – or not – rather than have ideological labels like “welfare states” applied as pejoratives…

    All of the advanced nations in the world do these things – it’s not just certain “welfare states”. It’s ALL OF THEM.

    1. Yes, even the United States. Only we like to pretend we are a nation of self-reliant gun-tote’n pioneers.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        lots of ironies… folks with “Don’t Tread on me” license plates driving on govt-created roads obtained via the Police power of forcing property owners to sell their land – for the “greater good” but they got those “Don’t Tread on me Plates” proudly displayed…. as the tool down those very socialist roads!!!

        Imagine what this country would look like without the govt taking people’s land to provide roads …… (oh, and that DOES properly fit the definition of “public necessity”!

      2. Well said! As you note, lots of ironies that you and most readers here certainly perceive. Unfortunately, there are fanatics out there that believe the State never, not ever, should be allowed to take private property. It’s one thing to talk about what circumstances are proper, another to categorically exclude all such takings from one’s thinking.

  5. LarrytheG Avatar

    re: ” But why not to Greece or Venezuela? The outcome of the socialist experiment, Sanandaji argues, depends largely upon the cultural setting in which it takes place.”

    Think about the implications of this statement.

    Is the author essentially saying that the folks who live in Venezuela and Greece are “culturally” predisposed towards socialism that will “fail”?

    We’ve been down this path before here in BR because Jim apparently likes to read stuff like this and apparently finds it credible enough in his own mind to pontificate about it.

    So certain cultures , according to the thinking, fail to have – the “necessary” characteristics such as ” “High levels of trust, a strong work ethic, civic participation, social cohesion, personal responsibility, and families values ” to make ” Scandinavian-Style Socialism” – and one presumes other variants of “socialism” to work?

    that’s a question. An honest one that I’d like Jim to be more clear about ………

    This is one of those areas where it appears that people who self-identify as “liberal” or “conservative” these days seem to align.

    I find the concept abhorrent and odious myself so I guess that makes me one of those “leftist” liberals, eh?

    I just love it NOT! when someone of one culture opines on their perceived “failures” of cultures different from their own which they apparently feel do have those all important “characteristics” like “work ethic”, “family values”, “trust”, civic participation, social cohesion, personal responsibility,

    Perhaps we should come up with a Cultural Rating System to rank the cultures on these characteristics?

    or how far should we go – in following this idea – if the suggested rating system is “too far”?

    This comment is NOT intended as personal towards Jim -but rather to the point of view that I DO FIND reprehensible… and I will further admit that I too sometimes wonder why and how certain continents and their generations apparently made great strides in things like science and technology and self-governance while others lagged… so perhaps I myself actually harbor some of those same thoughts…. that I consider so odious and I might need to hold myself accountable for that kind of thinking also.

    truth is – sometimes I do not know with enough precision where folks go with linking “cultural” to many of the important issues of our times. Older is not necessarily wiser on these things… not that I would know any more or less than others…. either….

    1. Is the author essentially saying that the folks who live in Venezuela and Greece are “culturally” predisposed towards socialism that will “fail”?

      More or less, that’s what he’s saying. Here’s what else he’s saying: Socialism undermines the work ethic, hence changing culture. Given the passage of several generations, socialism won’t work for Sweden any better than it works for Venezuela.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        re: Venezuela and Greece are “culturally” predisposed towards socialism that will “fail” more or less… yes…

        public roads are socialism, right? there are a clear majority of nations where there are no or minimal public roads… is that the “culture” that is superior?

        public education is also socialism, right? ditto… let the free market do education for those who are “culturally” inclined to pay for it?

        ERs open to anyone regardless of ability to pay – is socialism, right?

        Medicare and Medicaid are “socialism” , right?

        are these indications of “cultural” failings?

        so what is his point and yours? do you differentiate on the “kind” of “cultural” socialism or what?

        what “kinds” of “cultural socialism” do you consider “bound to fail” in “several generations”… public roads and public education are already generations old ….

        1. I’ll jump in here and say, these are not black and white choices but a tremendous variety of shades of gray. Look at your list: ““characteristics” like “work ethic”, “family values”, “trust”, civic participation, social cohesion, personal responsibility.” One nation that ranks very high on all of these is China. Do I want to live in China? Well, no. Why not. Well, I like the Chinese people I know, but . . . . “are they . . . “culturally” predisposed towards socialism that will “fail”?”. Gets complicated, quickly.

  6. Check the tax rates in Denmark. I applaud the Danish for the transparency and simplicity of their tax regime. However, the top marginal rate kicks in at an income level that would include every public school teacher in Fairfax County. Liberals like Bernie Sanders and Hitlery Clinton want Americans to believe that the Scandinavian countries implement their social programs by taxing corporations and wealthy citizens. In fact, almost everybody pays high taxes. The Danes, in particular, are “all in” across wide swaths of their society. Everybody pays and everybody benefits. Find me on American politician who both understands and endorses the actual Scandinavian model and I’ll be happy to listen to him or her.

  7. LarrytheG Avatar

    re: ” In fact, almost everybody pays high taxes. ”

    correct and that’s what Clinton would do also – but bill it as a tax on the wealthy… but she knows the reality – she just is a politician – like that is any real revelation!

    In the end – in any legitimate Democratic society -it truly is up to the people as to what level of taxation and services they want the govt to provide or not – and yes there will always be significant diversity and disagreement about it –

    but to call any of the European countries and Scandinavia as “welfare states” is just ideological rhetoric… as this country is more like Europe than much of the rest of the developing world – of which they could easily call the US – a “welfare state” also – it matters in degree only with regard to ALL of the OECD nations.

    Productivity is what you get from the things OECD nations tax and provide for – that’s what brings a better life for citizens than what you see in 3rd world countries where things like infrastructure, education and medical care just totally suck and most of their populations are far worse off for it.

    1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
      TooManyTaxes

      “it truly is up to the people as to what level of taxation and services they want the govt to provide or not – and yes there will always be significant diversity and disagreement about it”

      Well stated. Two of the big problems are: 1) there is little identity between those who want more “services” and those who are expected to pay for them; and 2) the unwillingness of the lawmaking process to hit the ultra-rich logarithmically harder than the well-off family making $150-200K per year.

      It’s interesting to watch good people with children in public schools insist others pay tax rate increases that regularly exceed growth in personal income for the benefit of their families, or employees of a nonprofit funded by taxes asking for more and more revenue, all disguised in terms of the public good. It really isn’t much different from land speculators insisting on higher gas taxes to enrich themselves without being forced to pay reasonable proffers.

      And suppose Congress took Bill Clinton’s limitation on the deductibility of key executive compensation further by limiting the federal tax deductibility of all annual compensation to say $2.5 M indexed and tightened the restrictions on private foundations. Would the Silicon Valley executives, Hollywood stars and mega-athletes be championing big government if they paid through the nose? I doubt it. The hypocrites would be looking for other citizenship.

  8. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Since when is Finland a “Nordic” country?

    Jim, have you ever been to Finland? Have you ever been to Sweden, Norway or Denmark?

    Or have you just read about it?

    Why should we take this straw man debunk of “socialist” Utopia seriously? What do you know about it? Why should we listen to you?

    1. Peter,

      Are you really saying Finland isn’t “Nordic”? I think Nordic countries are pretty consistently defined as Norway, Sweden, Finland, Denmark, and Iceland.

      Maybe you were thinking Scandinavian.

    2. I call Finland a “Nordic” country because the author, a Swede, does.

      “Why should we take this straw man debunk of “socialist” Utopia seriously? What do you know about it? Why should we listen to you?”

      I’ve never been to Scandinavia. Don’t take it on my word. Read the book.

      But I will say this, I find it remarkable that you don’t need to have read the book, know its arguments, or examine the data it presents in order to know it’s a “straw man.” All you need to know is that you don’t like the implications, and that suffices to trash it.

  9. LarrytheG Avatar

    taxation for schools at the local level – viewed as a “welfare state” type tax and local service is an interesting concept…!!!

    I suspect that if you asked folks in this country what the specific things about the Scandinavian countries they consider example of the “welfare state” that education probably would not be one.

    In fact, I’d be curious to hear from Bacon and others what specific things THEY think ARE “welfare state” things in those countries.

    Sometimes I think once the bomb-throwing word ” welfare state” is thrown – that following it with specific examples might be worth listening to – if for no other reason to see if the people who AGREE with that characterization – themselves as a group – also agree about what specific things they believe justifies that label!

  10. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    I’m still not certain what the point of these lectures is. Is it to debunk a so-called “idea” that the U.S. should follow the Nordic countries with Finland somehow getting lopped in?
    The fact is the U.S. happens to be perhaps the ONLY advanced industrial democracy that does not have government health care and because of this, it has some of the worst outcomes in matters such as infant mortality rates. It isn’t some nonsense that everyone else has a healthier lifestyle — it is access to medical care for the people most at risk. It’s like saying — when Virginians are kept out of needed Medicaid expansion — well they all smoke tobacco, drink Big Gulps and eat a lot of fried chicken. Having grown up in the South for much of my younger life, it is what I remember the white people saying. “You know, it wouldn’t be so bad if the Colored People just got rid of their bad habits.”

    When one gets out of the white, Richmond west end bubble, these kind of arguments are truly cringe-worthy. Concierge health care, anyone?

    I haven’t read this guy’s Nordic book nor to I intend to, but where do we get this crap about Greece and Venezuela?

    Greece has a long history of social care and doesn’t have much int he way of an economy other than shipping, tourism and farming, i.e., olive oil.

    Venezuela’s economy has been almost entirely oil and gas since the last part of the 19th century. WHat happened was that Hugo Chavez and his successor tried to add social programs on the oil firm PDVsA, reforming it as a kind of conglomerate into stuff it was never intended to do like run shopping malls. Meanwhile, experienced oil and gas people left to be replaced by Chavez cronies. To say that Venezuela is a victim of socialism kind of misses the point. It is the victim of personality politics gone very wrong.

    Anyway, I sure this is what counts as learned conversation among the privileged set at Libbie Market in Richmond’s West End.

  11. LarrytheG Avatar

    the “welfare state” meme has become an article of faith among the right…. and facts don’t really matter near as much as perceptions and beliefs… ergo -you don’t see a whole lot of hard facts but rather anecdotal…

    For a while – the right was claiming that Singapore was the “right way” to do “free-market” health care until actual facts were brought into the argument and the right “supporters” evaporated overnight never to be see or heard from again – at least on Singapore!

    but that don’t stop the “let the free market work” idea for health care so … repeal and replace Obamacare but keep the part about requiring folks with pre-existing conditions to be covered.

    but we still hear about how the “healthy” subsidize the sick under ObamaCare – as if the same exact thing is not also required for employer-provided health insurance – i.e everyone – regardless of age or health pays the same self-only or family premium – and that’s a govt rule that requires that – very UN-free market not to mention the gigantic tax-breaks the govt gives to people who have employer-provided rather than letting people pay the full cost of employer-provided insurance – which then would make it unaffordable for many even though the employer offered it – their salary could not pay for it.

    so the right when it comes to health care – lives in blissful denial of the way things really are – and they continue to “believe” that those who don’t have the govt-discounted employer-provided should have to get their insurance – on the free market of course… when the free market would then “compete” to provide affordable coverage. Notice they never advocate that for the folks on employer-provided – no sirree… that’s not the “free market” – and no need for it!

  12. The key point in the entire article was: “… Nordic countries are small, socially cohesive societies with shared values …”.

    We are probably the least socially cohesive society on the planet.

  13. LarrytheG Avatar

    yet another of those Amorphous concepts… that gets used when folks want facts brought to bear … facts don’t matter because the US is _so_ “unique” and cannot be compared…but we’re pretty sure we’re headed towards a Scandinavian welfare state if certain politicians have their way…. yesiree !!

    so the “welfare state” boogeyman is brought up for “effect” – but when we try to actually compare – we can’t because we’re too “unique”?

    so we really can’t talk about specifics… cuz they’re irrelevant when you got apples and oranges?

    so why bring it up at all then? oh wait…..

  14. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Larrytheg
    Capturing the double talk. Why do we bother?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      I’m not even sure WHAT welfare-state goodies they’re afraid of!!!

    2. We bother because it’s a blog, boogeymen and all.. Where the conversation can be its own reward. But hell, some readers here don’t even profess to enjoy the conversation yet make snide remarks anyway. Who here has used the word “unique,” applied to the United States, as a logical showstopper? Well, nobody that I can find, although Peter says the U.S. is the “ONLY advanced industrial democracy” which sounds a little like “unique” — maybe Peter is who Larry was talking about when he says, “so we really can’t talk about specifics… cuz they’re irrelevant.”

      Anyway, asides to the choir aside, what do any of us really know Scandinavia? I’m certainly influenced by the pictures of life in it in Steig Larsson’s Millennium series — hardly a scholarly source yet pretty close to the mark I imagine. It’s a welfare state, Larry and Peter, with all the good and bad that entails. Why can’t we “compare” that to our own and, not incidentally, find it a seriously-lacking way of life?

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        well the very same author says this in 2015:

        ” In his book Scandinavian Unexceptionalism, Nima Sanandaji promotes the idea that unique norms and free markets can explain the economic and social success of Scandinavia rather than large welfare states.

        In the book, Sanandaji argues that particularly the left has long praised Scandinavian countries for their high levels of welfare provision and admirable societal outcomes. Although true that Scandinavian countries are successful, the author makes the case that this success pre-dates the welfare state. According to Sanandaji Scandinavians became successful by combining a culture with strong emphasis on individual responsibility with economic freedom”

        In the National Review in July 2016 – he gets specific:

        “Clinton and Sanders both want to make America look a lot more like Denmark — they both want to pass generous parental leave policies, let the government bargain down drug prices, and strengthen the social safety net.”

        WOW! this is it? this is the big bad “welfare state”?

        Our own VA bargains for lower drug prices and I bet a large percentage of Americans would support something similar especially of late with the epi-pen saga…

        and another one – of many: ” Cycloserine, a drug used to treat dangerous multidrug-resistant tuberculosis, was just increased in price to $10,800 for 30 pills from $500 after its acquisition by Rodelis Therapeutics.

        parental leave and child care?

        “In a speech on Tuesday night, Trump laid out a plan on two of the issues most crucial to working women: maternity leave and child care.

        Trump would provide six weeks of paid leave for new mothers.Trump’s plan would expand unemployment insurance to include six weeks of paid maternity leave for new mothers. ”

        So Donald Trump is in favor of the “welfare state” also… just like those other liberals?

        gadzooks!

        Acbar – you glorify this “conversation”!

        it’s the SAME one – over and over just the words shifted around and a new “author” arguing the same position, from time to time to freshen it up!!!

        All OECD nations do similar things that vary by degree…. that’s the bottom line…. you can call it ‘welfare state’ but it really just fogs the discussion.

  15. Tom Christoffel Avatar
    Tom Christoffel

    Homogeneity is a characteristic of most nations, so it must take more than that to have a country of relatively equal opportunity regardless of station of birth. Model policy proposals, be it a new zoning district or health care regimen, are rarely adopted full cloth. The jurisdiction customizes for their own fit. A straight-up copy of the Nordics isn’t a concern. If we want their results we have to figure out how to get them by tinkering with our system. This short history of Norway and Sweden I read recently gives some background on how these late to the table “we the people” countries came to their current organization. Through out history, there’s always been a 1% – it used to be divine right, now financial might. http://wagingnonviolence.org/feature/how-swedes-and-norwegians-broke-the-power-of-the-1-percent/

  16. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    My guess is that in Bacon’s basement bunker nerve center, he has several old fashioned teletypes. They include:

    (1) Flash alerts from the National Review, Commentary, NewsMax, Fox News and Breitbart

    (2) A direct feed from the Thomas Jefferson Institute for Public Policy and the Mercator Center at George Mason.

    (3) A line to Dominion Resources, Dominion Virginia Power, Dominion Transmission plus a special beeper from Tom Farrell. These sources are always in the “on” position.

  17. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    If there are so many other nations that offer single-payer, taxpayer-funded health care that is so much better than what we have in the United States, why aren’t lower income Americans emigrating to those nations in high numbers? And why are so many people from other nations trying to get into the United States, legally or illegally?

  18. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Because they are not emigrating from those countries. Jeez this thinking is just so stupid.!

    1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
      TooManyTaxes

      Peter, why is this discussion stupid? If the health care system was so bad, people would be leaving for better care elsewhere. The attraction of the United States to both residents and outsiders alike has nothing to do with health care.

      1. Adam Ante Avatar

        Too, about 15 people leave the US for medical care for every one that enters. That does not count the people getting prescription drugs outside the US. It is one of the most extensive rejections of a system seem since East Germany collapsed.

        As for emigration, if you want to emigrate somewhere, you generally need to learn the language and it helps to have some basic familiarity with the place and the culture. English is the world language, taught in schools from a young age, and Hollywood, HBO etc makes damn sure everyone has a passing familiarity with US culture.

        Given that, its actually quite remarkable how many people from the US leave for Europe.

  19. Adam Ante Avatar

    Bacon, I would not rely a lot on Sanandajis book. Not without a lot of very heavy fact-checking. Its not very accurate.

    For example, the notion that the key to Scandinavian success is that the Nordic countries are small, socially cohesive societies with shared values rather ignores that similar success are achieved with similar policies by less homogeneous societies. Belgium, Netherlands, Canada, Germany, Australia, Sweden -all heterogeneous nations running systems similar to the Nordics, and getting similar results.

    Also, this rather relies on a US perspective of ethnic divisions, which does not carry over well to Europe.

    Further, you refer to Sanandaji as writing “Believers in expansive government visualize look to Sweden and Denmark as examples of how their policies would turn out. But why not to Greece or Venezuela?”

    Seriously, you don’t think that could be because Greece and Venezuela has completely different systems, policies and histories than the Nordics? Greece is institutionally corrupt with a history of recent authoritarianism, while Venezuela is trying to be actually socialist, and also run by authoritarians.

    The Nordics have a century of democracy where the people replace poor performers in government, and are some of the most ferociously capitalist countries on the planet. More capitalist than the US, for example.

    Really, who would expect an authoritarian socialist regime to perform similar to a capitalist democracy?

    There seems to be a general lack of understanding of the word “socialist” in the US. “Socialist” is when the government owns all the businesses. Not when the government participate in the stock market. In the US, “socialism” seems to be confused with “social policies” and people think government spending is a relevant metric.

    “The Nordic Four experienced their strongest economic growth in the century before World War I, by which time they had become among the most affluent countries in the world. ”

    There are five main Nordic countries. Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland and Iceland. Two of them -Sweden and Denmark- were wealthy before WWI. The other three were dirt poor.

    “While the Nordics still maintain generous welfare states (though less generous than before), they embrace free market principles…” Well, yes. There is a term for this. Its called the Nordic model. A strong capitalist setup, supporting generous welfare policies that sluice wealth to the middle class, which is the most effective tax-producing level of society.

    Welfare is not a capitalist/socialist thing. The Nordics are strongly capitalist and have been for most of their history.

    “immigrants from the Nordic countries are among the most prosperous ethnic groups in the United States” The main wave of emigration from Scandinavia was more than a century ago. When you say “Scandinavian-American” you are slicing out a small layer of US society, which can follow its ancestry back for a hundred years, and has belonged to the most advantaged US ethnic group for that time. Then you are comparing it to the entire range of Scandinavian society. This is much like comparing people who can trace their ancestry back to the Mayflower to the average Brit.
    If you compare Scandinavian-Americans to a similarly selected slice of the Scandinavian populations, the picture looks very different.

    “The Nordic countries have experimented with extending their welfare-state model to minorities, mainly from the Middle East…” Well, no. First off, this again relies on an American understanding of what a “minority” is, and more importantly, the Nordic nations are five separate countries whose policy and experiences in this area diverges widely.

    “But the health of Nordic peoples can be traced in good measure to their healthy lifestyles”

    If this was the case, we should see countries with unhealthy lifestyles, such as the UK, have lower lifespans. Rank them by smoking, obesity, alcohol consumption etc, see if that rank resembles the ranking of lifespan. It doesn’t.

    While lifestyle issues affect lifespan, healthcare is a far stronger factor. That is Public Health 101.

    “Wouldn’t Americans be healthier if they exercised more…” I am sure they would. They would still be stuck with a healthcare system far more expensive than the rest of the world, and with limited access to preventive care.

    The problem with Sanandajis book is that it plays fast and loose with the facts, when they are facts at all, and aims at certain uniquely American misconceptions to generate sales. Which sells, of course, but everything in it should be fact-checked before it is believed.

    1. Adam, It is refreshing to have someone critique the arguments in my post by grappling with the actual facts and issues raised by the post. I appreciate the avoidance of snark and deflection.

      I don’t have time to address all of your points, so let me focus on just a couple.

      You said, “Seriously, you don’t think that could be because Greece and Venezuela has completely different systems, policies and histories than the Nordics? Greece is institutionally corrupt with a history of recent authoritarianism, while Venezuela is trying to be actually socialist, and also run by authoritarians.”

      Where does Greece’s institutional corruption come from? Corrupt institutions arise from a population with a tolerance for corruption. The institutions cannot be separated from the culture. By contrast, the Scandinavian countries have a low tolerance for corruption and, consequently, mostly corruption-free institutions. Interestingly, those cultural values traveled with immigrants to the U.S. When you think of Minnesota, one thing that does NOT spring to mind is corruption — even in its largest cities. As for Venezuela, well, at least we can agree that authoritarian socialism has not turned out well.

      You said, ““While the Nordics still maintain generous welfare states (though less generous than before), they embrace free market principles…” Well, yes. There is a term for this. Its called the Nordic model. A strong capitalist setup, supporting generous welfare policies that sluice wealth to the middle class, which is the most effective tax-producing level of society.”

      Sanandaji makes the point that the strong welfare model works in the first generation, when everyone shares the same strong work ethic, but that the model becomes more problematic in successive generations as welfare erodes the work ethic. That’s why the Nordics have partially rolled back the welfare state in recent years. Also, when applied to immigrant groups that don’t share Nordic values, the welfare state has proven to be highly enervating. Rather than serving as a platform for successful entry into Swedish society, welfare has perpetuated joblessness and isolation. That’s why there has been such a strong political backlash in Sweden.

      1. Adam Ante Avatar

        You do make a good point about tolerance of corruption being a cultural trait. Although I would probably also assign blame to the modern history of Greece, with its civil unrest and military dictatorships up until 1974. Dictatorships seem to be a very good climate for corruption to take hold in a population, as opposed to a democracy where abusive governments can be replaces. Lack of public feedback mechanisms, Id call it.

        As for the welfare model, the problem here is still that the Nordics are five different countries with extremely different immigration politics and different economies. I would be hard pressed to say that Norway has rolled back the welfare models. Redistributed it, yes. Sweden has, I believe. Iceland, Finland, Denmark… individual experiences. Also very differing experiences with second-generation and later immigrants.
        What is true is that America is better at integrating immigrants, but that is to be expected given Americas much larger experience in the area.

  20. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Healthy lifestyles?

    I have been in Finland (actually a non-Nordic country) many times when I was posted in Moscow. We bought many of our supplies there and I may still have a charge account at Stockmann’s, a big department store in Helsinki. I have been there for emergency dental work.

    The Finns, however, have such as strong taste for alcoholic beverages which are tightly controlled by their version of ABC stores. Once, I took a trip on a Finnish ship to Stockholm. Once, the vessel crossed international waters and Finnish law no longer held, the many Finns on board partied hearty. In fact, it was dangerous to try to walk down the hallways to your room.

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