Are We Willing to Require Health Care Workers to Get Vaccinated If There Are No Replacements?

by James C. Sherlock

Sometimes reality trumps policy. The headline asks a question for which I do not have an answer.

My personal position is that all health care workers and all school workers should get vaccinated. Reality suggests that changing the verb from “should” to “must” depends on the availability of replacements, the necessity of the service and risks and rewards of both options.

Replacements are the problem in Virginia.

The Washington Post published an articleGet the vaccine or get fired? In Shenandoah Valley, some nurses choose termination.

So, there it is. The stark choice.

But Nurse Journal reports that Virginia has the 9th lowest number of nurses per 100,000 people of all the states/D.C. at 10.52 per 100,000.

Among the mid-Atlantic states, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Washington, D.C., Virginia and West Virginia, we have the lowest ratio of nurses. Also the lowest among neighboring states.

I personally blame that on the control by regional provider monopolies of the labor market. Doesn’t matter why in this instance. Only that it is true. We have a massive shortage of nurses.

So in the case detailed in the article,

“The nurses’ employer, Valley Health, the parent company of Winchester Medical Center, had given them an ultimatum: Get the shot or face termination.

For the majority of Valley Health employees, the policy was not a problem; 75 percent are fully vaccinated, the company said.

But in a region where vaccination rates are lower than they are statewide, Valley Health’s mandate prompted a furious community debate, with numerous protests outside Valley Health’s hospitals in Front Royal and Winchester, and pleas from unvaccinated people demanding intervention from local government to stop the mandate.

Meanwhile, in neighboring rural Warren County, where Valley Health’s newest hospital — Warren Memorial Hospital — is located, only 46 percent of the adult population is fully vaccinated.

Katie Hart, a certified family nurse practitioner at Valley Health’s urgent care facility in Martinsburg, W.Va., said they might be more willing to consider the shot if they didn’t feel coerced.

Now, though, they were willing to lose their livelihoods if that’s what refusing the vaccine would mean. Hart said they would not budge. “This is the hill to die on,” she said.

It’s unclear how many nurses or other staffers may ultimately choose to resign or be fired; a Valley Health spokeswoman said an accurate count won’t be available until after the process for seeking exemptions is complete. Staffers have until Sept. 7 to get their first shot.

Lloyd, the Front Royal councilman and an attorney, said dozens of Valley Health workers — he estimated more than 150 — have since reached out to him, some seeking legal defense, and they are now weighing their options.

“We’re going to do what we need to do to staff our hospitals” no matter what happens, said Jeffrey Feit, a physician and Valley Health’s population health and community health officer, who worked on the policy.

Based on the statewide nursing shortage, it appears that Feit may be bluffing, whether he knows it or not.

I’d like to offer my usual sage advice, but I don’t have any. Other than it is not a partisan or even a policy issue.

It is a demand/supply problem.


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64 responses to “Are We Willing to Require Health Care Workers to Get Vaccinated If There Are No Replacements?”

  1. vicnicholls Avatar
    vicnicholls

    The mandate is crap and they know it. We already have doctors who say it should be telehealth only unless you get vaxxed. Wait for the lawsuits. My body my choice. They let measles go on from Israel to the NY Orthodox Jewish community. They let a kid cost $800K because of refusal to get tetanus shots. Even let him walk out without one. So once we start creating the 2 tier society of 1930’s Germany, you’ll find folks aren’t going to walk out on this one.

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Telehealth? Is that when a doctor assists you with your appendectomy via Zoom?

      1. Zoom, and YouTube “how to” videos.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          I know a urologist who gave himself a vasectomy on the kitchen counter over the sink with guests over. Apparently, it’s a simple operation.

          1. I observed several orthopedic surgeries performed on my leg (3) and my wrist (1).

            After watching my doctor install a steel plate on my left distal tibia I [half] joked that I have pretty much every tool he used during the procedure in the toolbox in my garage. He agreed, but advised against performing future surgeries myself.

            🙂

          2. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            When I was 16, I cut a planters wart from my foot using nail clippers and a cigarette. I highly recommend no one ever do such a stupid thing.

            OTOH, have you watched Dr. Pimplepopper?

          3. I once cut a wart off one of my fingers with an Exacto knife. It bled a lot for a an hour or so and left a small scar but it never grew back. The key is to slice a little bit below the skin surface to make sure you get all of it.

            I have not watched that show and based on ads I’ve seen for it I have no interest doing so.

          4. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            All, of course, without benefit of biopsy. Our doctors would be mortified…

    2. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      There were quite a few medical interactions moved to virtual last year and of course plenty of medical personnel never interact with patients. And of course I remain comfortable that my own vaccination likely protects me from any infection, and very much protects against serious COVID. But I think legally the employers can require it. Plenty are.

      Quite a lesson in human silliness and stubbornness we’ve taught ourselves as we now head into the “this time it was preventable” phase of this pandemic. But no more preventable than smoking, which kills more surely but a bit slower, and obesity, which is COVID’s partner in death most often. Now that we’re seeing the sad tales on TV over and over, notice the usual size of those folks….

      The media coverage and social media reach of medical folks refusing the shot has been the most encouraging to the other refuseniks. I’m still worried the schools will be shutting down again in many places. Predicted it months ago but got to hoping I was wrong. Naaaah, we’re right back due to the low vax rates.

      1. Publius Avatar

        Telehealth was one improvement from Covid. The impediment was doctors didn’t get as much. Covid forced the change and it only makes sense. Rather than carting your sick butt to the ER or waiting room and hanging around, from a public health standpoint, this makes way more sense.
        I also like the drinks to go thing, wow – treating adults like adults! I always thought it ridiculous on 1/2 price growler fill nights that they had to tape the top of my growler shut for the 1 mile drive home. We’ll see if our benevolent overlords let that freedom continue.
        One horrible thing from emergency rule is the panic and suspension of all norms. Flu is deadlier for some people. Why don’t we mandate flu shots? How come every medical system in the US has accept or refuse language FOR ALL MEDICAL PROCEDURES AND TREATMENTS, INCLUDING THE RIGHT TO DIE, and we didn’t freak out previously?
        You can’t mandate the vaccinations. Try persuasion, and try quit calling people idiots for disagreeing with you. Because the “unvaccinated” aren’t being “selfish,” they may have really good reasons for not getting vaccinated (like it’s EUA or they are not at risk or they can’t or they are pregnant or they have already had Covid). The numbers being spread about “unvaccinated” “cases” are manipulated. And the numbers over “vaccinated” “Cases” are being ignored. Viruses virus. It is the ultimate in hubris to think we can contain it. Common sense precautions and a return to basic hygiene principles, vaccinate those at risk, and quit suppressing the HCQ and Ivermectin protocols that work with early treatment (oh, that’s right, we can’t admit that because then we can’t do EUA of the Covid vaxes). It’s maddening to see the suspension of all norms for something we know how to handle and who is at risk. How about all fat people lose weight? All alcoholics stop drinking? All druggies quit using drugs (except pot, which VA expects to make a lot of money from and we’ll convict fewer blacks…so what if we lower educational performance even more…we virtue signaled!)
        End of rant…for now!

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Anti-vaxxers are a self-correcting problem. They’ll continue to refuse until there are none left to refuse. Sadly, they’ll mutate the virus so that the rest of us may need two, three, maybe four boosters. Fine by me.

        Pfizer — refuse all you want, we’ll make more ($).

        1. I think we are going to end up needing annual boosters.

  2. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Quit because of a mandate to vaccinate, or quit from overwhelming workload?

    Practically speaking, what’s the difference?

  3. William O'Keefe Avatar
    William O’Keefe

    The vaccines have been proven so employers should hold firm. The way to solve the supply problem is to offer higher salaries. Those who say they won’t be coerced are being selectively stupid because they readily accept other government and private requirements. The nurse who is making this her hill to die on may get her wish.

    1. vicnicholls Avatar
      vicnicholls

      What? Higher salaries? Do you think people can come in off the street and be trusted or have the education for STEM-H fields?

      “selectively stupid”? Yes, that is really going to want to make people who won’t take the vaccine do so, or even improve the relationship between the 2 groups. All it will do is harden their hearts and when stuff hits the fan, they’ll see that since people think they’re life unworthy of life, they’ll treat you in the same manner.

    2. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      Your salaries statement is just bollocks by someone who has zero understanding of the Medical field.

      Your also making a statement degrading that you required all these Nurses to cover down on COVID floors and care for those patient during the pandemic, prior to any vaccines being available.

      I would suspect that you had to deal with the possibility to getting told to quarantine because your loved was exposed to a COVID-19 patient with inadequate PPE. Going through the routine of testing and waiting 10 days for the first results. Puling your child from daycare and having to wait 14 days before they could return.

      Well guess what, that’s how I lived my life for over year.

      Did my wife and myself get the vaccine, yes, yes we did. That however was our choice and not the choice of a bureaucrats nor uneducated individuals who live within a spoiled population.

      So just think of this, when you need healthcare don’t ask a nurse because to you, her life and her choices don’t matter.

      1. William O'Keefe Avatar
        William O’Keefe

        And you have zero understanding of economics. The medical field is not immune to its effects. Unvaccinated nurses put patients at risk. So yes get the vaccine or find another job.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          Ummm false. There are no supply and demand factors that increase pay in the medical field.

          You can’t magically make someone a licensed Dr. or Nurse.

          You also can’t force the monopolies to pay better, which for your edification isn’t just VA.

          ” Unvaccinated nurses put patients at risk.”

          Again, you didn’t think so when they were caring for the sick prior to vaccinations, so what’s the difference now?

          How’s about you sack up, go back to school and be a Nurse Billy f’stick.

          1. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            So, if a provider offered a bonus, it would get no qualified takers? Why do you believe that medical providers are immune to incentives. By the way, those who have weak arguments always resort to insults and sarcasm. You are very revealing.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “William O’Keefe 35 minutes ago
            So, if a provider offered a bonus, it would get no qualified takers? Why do you believe that medical providers are immune to incentives. By the way, those who have weak arguments always resort to insults and sarcasm. You are very revealing”

            The only people who get “bonuses” in the Medical field are the Administration and again, it’s a monopoly which doesn’t operate via supply and demand.

            The COVID bonus passed out by these Monopolies barely made 4 figures and that was prior to taxes and retirement being taken out.

            “By the way, those who have weak arguments always resort to insults and sarcasm. You are very revealing.”

            If you want me to insult you I can and will, I have not done so. However, you have insulted any number of medical providers saying you know better.

            You’re an authoritarian, thanks for outing yourself.

          3. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            You should read what I said not what you want to believe I said.

          4. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            I did read what you said and it’s clear you don’t understand how working in a hospital occurs.

            I’ll break it down Barney-style for you:

            Nurses in hospitals work 12 hours shifts, their full time work week is 36 hours. Dependent upon the system they are required to work a certain number of holidays a year.

            While you have some younger nurses who soak up all the extra shifts (it also places you into a new tax bracket) most older do not. That covers full-time nurses, that doesn’t account for part-time (varying degrees of shifts and part-time) nor does it count locum, travel nurses or any other varying type of contract Nurse.

            The contract Nurses make more because they only work for salary not benefits or malpractice insurance coverage.

            This situation is similar is Physicians minus they typically work 7 on and 7 off if they are hospitalists. Obviously their pay is more than say a Nurses even an Nurse Practitioner (NP).

            Furthermore, I enjoyed you ignoring that COVID bonuses were paid for staff that worked through the pandemic. Where they often covered down on COVID floors as long as they were in their competence (haha not really). You also ignored that the bonus paid out amounted to nothing. That would include NOVA, which if you weren’t aware has a stranglehold on pay for Northern Virginia.

            So let us discuss what you don’t know about INOVA and why I stated any all incentives goes to management vs staff.

            The parking garage for the Nurses and Doctors is across campus, where as admin staff is right next to the hospital. The onsite daycare hours only reflect the 9-5 staff not the Physicians nor the Nurses who work 12 hour shifts.

            The turn over rate in INOVA is massive for Nurses but is offset by the number of classes they push through only a monthly basis.

            No take all of these statements and read your comment again and laugh at the notion that you’ll offer them a “financial” incentive that will make them choose to do what is “right” in your mind.

            Furthermore, while you enjoyed your working from home through a pandemic. Those of us who’s spouses or other family members are medical professionals had to live with the notion that we couldn’t shelter in place. That we were possible exposed after every shift that member took and that to quarantine multiple times and be tested multiple times while you were eating cookies on your f’n couch.

            Gone are the days of everyone calling them hero’s for going to work. Now ya’ll want them to loose their jobs because they simple won’t comply.

            So I’ve got some words for, go GFY.

          5. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            This pointless since you don’t understand labor economics and insist on reading your own views into what I wrote. BTW: gfy is very mature isn’t it?

          6. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            “William O’Keefe a minute ago
            This pointless since you don’t understand labor economics and insist on reading your own views into what I wrote. BTW: gfy is very mature isn’t it?”

            It’s pointless because you again fail to realize that healthcare is a monopoly and rules of supply and demand don’t exist.

            The only thing your arbitrary “rules” do is punish those who are still working. There aren’t people who have the experience to cover down and take over. All you’re doing is completing and exercise of burning out care providers and let their families pick up the pieces, because maw “they are a danger”.

            I don’t care if you think it’s mature or not, you have zero understanding of the topic at hand nor are you capable of realizing that fact. You pontification about supply and demand and when its application to Healthcare isn’t a reality.

            Your views are of a corporate world where new grads can be slotted in and don’t require license. That is not a reality for healthcare, every single person providing care needs a license and those don’t grow on trees.

          7. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            Please cite the evidence for you belief in supply inelasticity. I am reminded of Mark Twain’s observation— I’m not troubled by all the things he doesn’t know, just all the things he knows that just ain’t so!

          8. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            https://www.usa.edu/blog/nursing-shortage/

            Again you simply don’t understand that supply and demand do not apply to a specialized field. You can’t manufacturer Nurses and you’re about to “fire” the minimal ones you have because they don’t adhere to your dictations.

            You’re not going to entice anyone with any sum of money to be a Nurse. It takes Hospital’s $200k student loan repayment to entice Physicians to markets. I can assure you that the number of Nurses dwarfs the number of Physicians.

            Not to mention not all Nurses are equal, they have specializations and competency.

            It’s funny that you quote Twain when you haven’t a clue about the Medical Field and that’s been very evident from the outset.

          9. William O'Keefe Avatar
            William O’Keefe

            With the wrong model you always get the wrong answer. If employer A offers a financial incentive, employees with other employers will have a reason to consider employer A. It’s not ideological;its just the way the world works.

          10. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            So instead of admitting you weren’t aware that there was already a shortage of Nurses you double down.

            You can manufacture more Nurses nor can you make more people into them. They aren’t just random cogs, the rules that you want to apply don’t work.

            They aren’t just OJT individuals and lets roll the dice.

            Nurse A doesn’t want to get the vaccine for her own reasons. Her employer tells her that they will terminate her services for failure to comply. Employer B offers the same Nurse a $10 dollar pay raise but still requires the vaccine, the Nurses still declines.

  4. vicnicholls Avatar
    vicnicholls

    https://100percentfedup.com/fully-vaccinated-flight-attendant-dies-of-covid19-after-trip-to-hawaii/

    Guess it didn’t happen?

    So now are you going to require all overweight & obese folks to get bariatric surgery? Require stopping smoking from smokers? Everyone stop selling any pasta or cookies to those not within weight limits or any smoking items to smokers?

    This is why you don’t go down the slippery slope. Much less, health care, education, govt. work was how the Nazi’s started excluding the Jews from Germany in the 30’s.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      It DOES HAPPEN – to 1-2%. 98% who die were not.

      Not just about lifestyle choices, but knowingly and wantonly engaging in risky and unsafe behaviors that can endanger not only oneself but others.

      Driving while drinking. Screwing with your cell phone while driving. RUnning red lights. Smoking at the gas pumps, etc.

      Your body. Your choice. NOT!

      1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
        James C. Sherlock

        Dangerous waters.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          oops. sorry about that!

          1. Stephen Haner Avatar
            Stephen Haner

            Goodness, turn off the phone when screwing!

      2. killerhertz Avatar
        killerhertz

        I could make the same argument about obese people and their unhealthy lifestyles. It is interesting that the media now normalizes these body images and lifestyles and how the CDC doesn’t even speak to these as the largest risks to COVID. Close the gyms and make people stay inside so they can’t exercise.

        It is plain as day they don’t give a rats ass about anyone’s health, but demand obedience over their dominion. Go to college, take on some debt they say. Take the jab and do your job like good bots. Only then can you go home and watch Netflix like a 2nd class citizen.

  5. Seems like the commentariat deems this post worthy only of sniping or ignoring. But I think JS has a big issue by the tail here. Nurses are the hard case but across the board, in all areas of employment, public health science comes up against “This is the hill to die on” and similar romanticization of the Virginia state motto. Whether it’s airlines or DMV or your local Starbucks, employers sense there’s a lot of anger out there directed towards the unvaccinated who have brought this latest pandemic surge upon us, apparently needlessly, certainly selfishly.

    Fundamentally, those who claim “personal liberty” as their reason for refusing to get vaccinated are demonstrating their ignorance or disdain for the imperative of reaching herd immunity and beyond in order to put this disease behind us. Ignorance if they believe the social media garbage, or disdain if they choose to put the elite in their place over listening to rational arguments. Either way, they demonstrate they care more about themselves than the community at large. Are these the sort of employees the boss wants to retain? Can he/she get the rest of the workforce to go along if the excuses and exemptions are too easily allowed? Will scared customers stay away; will their anger be assuaged by not enforcing a “get vaccinated” rule? Will mothers send their kids to schools where the teacher remains unvaccinated, a disease vector? Well, sure, some of these stubborn employees cannot easily be replaced. Some of them are even especially-essential workers at this time, such as in health care. Too bad. The majority’s patience has run out.

    There’s an article in the Washington Post today about how the defining issue in the Youngkin-McAuliffe contest is becoming their stance on mask mandates. This is a proxy for what JS is writing about here: a mask mandate is vaccination-mandate-lite. The article concludes with this prescient quote from Stephen Farnsworth of the University of Mary Washington: “as hospitals once again fill with patients, there is a growing rage in this country about people who haven’t been vaccinated.”

    1. vicnicholls Avatar
      vicnicholls

      Why would any one non vaccinated want to give any respect to any one who says what you said below? Expect them to retaliate hard. When you treat people as subhuman, that is what you get.

      Btw, since the biggest groups are minority (contrary to what the MSM says), what do you think that says about the majority?

      “the unvaccinated who have brought this latest pandemic surge upon us, apparently needlessly, certainly selfishly.Fundamentally, those who claim “personal liberty” as their reason for refusing to get vaccinated are demonstrating their ignorance or disdain for the imperative of reaching herd immunity and beyond in order to put this disease behind us. Ignorance if they believe the social media garbage, or disdain if they choose to put the elite in their place over listening to rational arguments. Either way, they demonstrate they care more about themselves than the community at large. Are these the
      sort of employees the boss wants to retain?”

      1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        “Btw, since the biggest groups are minority…”

        This is not true. By straight numbers, minorities make up a minority of the unvaccinated as well.

        1. Publius Avatar

          Figures lie and liars figure. By percentages, minorities are a higher unvaccinated group. By education level, what is the highest vaccine hesitant group?

          PHDs at 23.9%

          1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Doc, go sell your snake oil elsewhere. Minorities are dwarfed in numbers by the unvaccinated white… Right white that is.

          2. According to the VDH COVID-19 dashboard, the percentage of eligible population vaccinated with at least one dose of the vaccine in Virginia is as follows:

            Asian/PI — 75.3%
            Black — 49.9%
            Latino — 64.9%
            Native American — 89.6%
            White — 55.1%

            Now, informed by the data, please continue the conversation…

            https://www.vdh.virginia.gov/coronavirus/covid-19-vaccine-demographics/

          3. Publius Avatar

            And here is some great data from Kaiser.
            Breaks it out by State and on an aggregate level – Figures 3 and 4 are particularly apt.
            https://www.kff.org/coronavirus-covid-19/issue-brief/latest-data-on-covid-19-vaccinations-race-ethnicity/

          4. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            And that data supports exactly what I said. Which is bigger 50% of 20% of the population or 45% of 70% of the population?

        2. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Give up. He doesn’t understand numbers. He loves to cite the fact that a high percentage 24% of doctorates are unvaccinated without realizing that there are only 2,000,000 of them. So, only 500K are unvaccinated. That’s like Cleveland.

    2. killerhertz Avatar
      killerhertz

      A vaccine that does not achieve sterilizing immunity does not achieve herd immunity.

    3. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      You expected those Nurses and Dr’s to care of the sick during the pandemic when a vaccine wasn’t at this disposal.

      So it was okay for them to work before, but it’s not okay for them to work now.

      Sounds more like the authoritarians in the crowd have been outed, so when can we line you up for the Anthrax vaccine?

      Which if you had any idea of where EUA’s came from you’d know about.

  6. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    We should do the same thing Conservatives like Ronald Reagan used to do, with those air traffic controllers. Kick their arses from here to Sunday!

    Tell the rest of us that we’ll have to cooperate together to work through it but a much easier thing oncethe refuseniks are booted and the rest of us work together to get to a better place.

  7. James C. Sherlock Avatar
    James C. Sherlock

    Interesting to note that almost all commenters ignored my point, the demand/supply problem, in favor of their preferred policy choices.

    That is the problem with our state government and its state-created and supported regional monopolies. While COPN has insulated them from anti-trust prosecution up until now, it doesn’t insulate them from market forces.

    Demand/supply ratios favor the nurses. Deal with it.

    1. vicnicholls Avatar
      vicnicholls

      Not exactly. Its the way the “demand” went those “supplying” the labor that is going to contribute to some “interesting times”.

    2. Yes, demand/supply favors the nurses, for now. The cartels will eventually deal with it through salaries etc., something that’s going to have to happen anyway as a consequence of the coming increase in in-home health care funding. The supply won’t increase overnight, but eventually the anti-vaxxers will be forced to choose which hill to die on.

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        “The supply won’t increase overnight, but eventually the anti-vaxxers will be forced to choose which hill to die on.”

        Calling people against mandates or vaccines that haven’t been FDA approved “anti-vaxxers” just illustrates how f’n stupid you are.

        I also could care less if that hurts your feelings, every single poster who is deriding nurses has never known, lived or understood a Nurse.

        So until you can sack up and go be a Nurse zip it.

        1. vicnicholls Avatar
          vicnicholls

          The ones I know not going to get shot are the ones who have done vaccines. Not saying that is true of all of them, it is just this specific one they’re leary of. There is solid evidence for that, not conspiracy stuff. I have folks who believe that, but not all of them.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            That is exactly the experience my wife (who’s a Nurses) has had as well.

            It’s just far easier to demonize a group and remove their humanity then it is to engage in a debate with them.

            Hence they label anyone who wishes to not be administered a vaccine under the guise of “informed consent” an “anti-vaxxer”.

      2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
        James C. Sherlock

        Leaping in here, I will interject that very large bonuses are being offered for nurse new hires and retention bonuses right now. 20,000 dollars not uncommon for specialized RNs not uncommon. One of my biggest patient safety concerns is some hospitals in Virginia were regularly operated with their nursing staffs down 20% or more without reducing services. If I could gather that data, so could VDOH. Nothing heard.

    3. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
      energyNOW_Fan

      I see what you are saying, because community organizations also face a challenge if they should require vaccination for meetings. If they do mandate vaccine, they may lose some people/members, and if they do not mandate, they also could lose those members that want to demand fellow participants be vaccinated. Dammed if we do and dammed if we don’t. (Spelled dam wrong I know.). And its critical because COVID has already caused loss of organization members due to moves, sickness, changes in priorities, so the last thing we need is a new litmus test to cause further loss of membership. Organizations used to open membership, now we have to say some are not welcome to join anymore.

    4. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      So, the solution to the problems created by not enforcing anti-trust laws (worse creating them) will be employees choosing to unite in opposition?

      Yeah, okay. And you guys say unions are no good.

      1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
        James C. Sherlock

        I never said any such thing. I only oppose public employees unions.

        If the doctors and nurses don’t organize against the Sentara’s of the world they are making a mistake.

  8. “We’re going to do what we need to do to staff our hospitals” no matter what happens, said Jeffrey Feit, a physician and Valley Health’s population health and community health officer, who worked on the policy.

    I can see it now: “Press gangs” travel to New York (and other large cities). They make friends with nurses. They buy them dinner & drinks, get them drunk and sedate them, and when they wake up they are in Front Royal, VA working for Valley Health…

    He did say they would do what they “need to do to staff [their] hospitals”…

    1. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      “I can see it now: “Press gangs” travel to New York (and other large cities). They make friends with nurses. They buy them dinner & drinks, get them drunk and sedate them, and when they wake up they are in Front Royal, VA working for Valley Health…”

      Or, in Andrew Cuomo’s hotel room. Or Justin Fairfax’s hotel room.

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      “And pay Paddy Doyle for his boots masks.”

    3. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      Likely what has transpired throughout the pandemic. Placing individuals outside of their competency is horrible situations to care for the sick. The reuse of PPE that isn’t adequate, the discontinuing of CNA’s because they aren’t essential.

      The ceasing of elective procedures which will result in the collapse of the Hospitals and the healthcare systems are they are parts of.

  9. DJRippert Avatar
    DJRippert

    Where are the howls of incompetence against Joe Biden? Where is the consistent national response that liberals lambasted Trump about? When Trump left it up to the states he was negligent. Now Biden does the same and there’s not a murmur from the left.

    And … what happened to the cries that US has the worst approach to COVID in the world? Were are the cries of “worst per capita death rate”? Oh right, that’s not true.

    1. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      It’s called being duplicitous.

      They should’ve known full well the Federal Government can’t mandate anything outside of what is the Federal Government.

      That darn and pesky 10th Amendment.

      They however, are quick to apply bad Law in the form of Jacobson V Mass to enforce their mandates. They just aren’t honest enough to say that Buck v Bell and an whole host of other bad Law came from that ruling. Not to mention the only penalty was a $5 dollar fine ($250 dollars today).

    2. Right now today I am more concerned about Biden’s incompetence in handling Afghanistan.

  10. Scott McPhail Avatar
    Scott McPhail

    No one seems to be asking WHY so many in the health care field are vaccination shy.
    From my own personal experiences through the nurses I know, and I know a few, it comes down to ( and yeas I realize this is purely anecdotal) . . .

    A) Skepticism of all the medically contradictory information they have received from the media since the beginning of the epidemic- From the MEDIA not SOCIAL media.
    B) They have been advised privately by doctors who they work with and know personally to wait.
    C) Fear of the reproductive effects- rumors about this have been going around for some time and a disproportionate number of nurses are women in their child bearing years.(You would be surprised in any given work area who many nurses are pregnant at one time)

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