Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

Are These Plants Really Worth Saving?

—

by

James A. Bacon
in

You’ll be glad to know that Fluor-Lane, Transurban and the Virginia Department of Transportation have partnered with a local conservation group to “rescue” native plants in staging areas for construction of two high-occupancy toll lanes along the Capital Beltway. Volunteers from Land and Waters Inc., based in Falls Church, joined employees of the construction companies earlier this month to “identify native species in the construction area” and “re-plant the rescued plants in schoolyards.”

“The Transurban and Fluor-Lane volunteers have helped us preserve native plants, as well as provide a science lesson to northern youngsters,” said Lands and Waters president Jeanette Stewart. “Using low-impact development techniques and sound management practices, we transplanted native species as part of our living classroom initiative.”

How sweet.

But is this meaningful? Of the estimated 350 plant species native to Virginia (that number comes from a press release), how many of them are remotely threatened? How many of the species being transplanted are routinely bulldozed during the construction of houses and shopping centers every day? What are we accomplishing by transplanting ubiquitous species from one location to another? Are the school children learning anything worthwhile?

Look, I’m a big fan of the HOT lane project. But publicity stunts like this are simple greenwashing. Transplanting native species before the bulldozers clear the land down to the red clay? Big whoop. I’m a lot more interested to hear what Fluor-Lane/Transurban is doing to minimize the acreage being cleared in the first place. A story about construction industry best practices would be worth reporting.

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  1. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    I am telling you Jim – this deal is going to break your heart. It’s also going to be the end of the careers of many NoVA politicians.

    There has been a large are cleared across from Cooper Middle School in McLean. It is a fairly large rectangular area (several acres). It looks like a “daisy cutter” bomb was dropped on the site. When I asked what it was I was told it will be the toll plaza. Interestingly, I see no heavy construction occuring on the roadway. Maybe it’s being done and I just don’t see it. The toll plaza, however, is very visible and seems like it will be open and collecting tolls long before there is any road construction completed.

    It is challenging to imagine how the toll plaza will work. It’s a very large area so there must be an expectation of a lot of cars. And it’s strategically located just over the American Legion Bridge (aka Cabin John Bridge) for traffic going from Maryland into Virginia. This seems tailor made to back up traffic but, as I said, they may have a plan that will work better than it looks.

    As for the replanting shrubs – I have a very bad feeling that this is just the first of a deluge of BS that will be slung by the architects of this plan.

    My hopes for this toll road are as follow:

    1. NoVA residents are awakened to the disgraceful behavior of their elected representatives.

    2. Incumbent politicians are thrown out of office regardless of political party or tenure in NoVA.

    3. Congestion tolling dies the pig’s death it deserves and is never contemplated again in Virginia.

    This “con job” is becoming more visible by the day.

  2. E M Risse Avatar
    E M Risse

    Sorry Jim Bacon, you took a swing and a miss on this one.

    The observations in our column on the Beltway to Easter Island were made after reading about this “rescue.”

    As far as I know we organized the first of these plant resuces in the early eighties for a section of what became the Fairfax County Parkway in Fairfax Center.

    Now, over 25 years later I am still finding good that resulted from that effort.

    People we met, insights we gained, well maintained natural areas where the plants were moved, Institutions that grew to good works beacuse of the volunteer efforts… the list goes on.

    I am with Groveton here, the whole project is ill concieved becausee we do not need more capacity, we need less demand.

    And while we are at it:

    How about all those who said demand for driving was “inelastic?”

    Why not write about that?

    What really chaps me are all the MainStream Media outlets that are whining about gasoline prices.

    Hello!!

    Where were they in 1973 when it became obvious to many that if human settlement patterns did not change, Mobility and Access would be dependent upon Autonomobiles and that at some point gasoline would be $10 a gallon?

    Here is a suggestion:

    Instead of trying to help communters, MainStream Media should take 5% of their income (or 20% of thier profit – their choice) from ad revenue since 1973 for Autonomobiles and scattered urban development (aka MainStream housing)and from gas and oil companies and put it in a fund to help commuters retrain themselves to become noncommuters?

    Got to go…

    EMR

  3. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I vow to vote against any one of my representatives who comes out in favor of this nonsense.

  4. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “How about all those who said demand for driving was “inelastic?” “

    Local polls show that 7 out of ten people claim to be doing something to cut fuel costs.

    Statistics show that actual fuels usage is down less than one percent.

    do you beleive waht people say, or what actually happens?

    RH

  5. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    The clear-cut site across from Cooper Middle School is for a construction staging area. While that is bad enough, it is not going to be a toll plaza. The HOT lanes will stop at the Dulles Toll Road. HOT lanes will not be extended further unless and until they will be connected to similar HOT lanes built by Maryland.

    TMT

  6. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Groveton, “Die a pig’s death”? A pig’s death? Why not a dog’s death? Why not a cat’s death? Why not a cow’s death? How do people get away with showing such contempt for the porcine species? I oughta sic PETA on you!

    Ed, I stand corrected on the value of the plant rescues. Perhaps you could provide more detail on the benefits of these exercises than did the press release I read.

    As for congestion pricing, it will dampen demand, unlike the usual tax-and-spend remedies.

  7. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    TMT:

    Thanks for the info. Looks like I got the wrong story on the site near Cooper Middle School. I am actually glad to find that I am wrong. I looked at that site and couldn’t figure out how the traffic would be routed through that area.

    Having HOT lanes at Dulles Toll Rd is interesting in and of itself. The turn from the Beltway to the Dulles Toll Rd is a common site of traffic backups. It seems to me that adding toll booths add to congestion in and of themselves. So, I wonder how you reduce congestion by adding choke points. But … maybe they have a plan.

    TMT – Where can you find the “official” plan for these congestion tolls?

  8. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    Jim:

    Fair point on the pig analogy. No intended reference to any derivative pork products.

    As for the congestion tolls – very few people seem to understand what this all means. In my opinion, these tolls are getting very little coverage here in NoVA. Even if they are a good idea in the long run (which I doubt) they will be a “shock to the system” in the short run. And “shocks to the system” rarely go well.

  9. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Isn’t that a Marijuana plant that guy is holding?

  10. Bob Avatar
    Bob

    “I’m a lot more interested to hear what Fluor-Lane/Transurban is doing to minimize the acreage being cleared in the first place”

    The best way to minimize the unnecessary destruction of the environment is to have general purpose lanes that do not require the footprint of the toll and spend infrastructure.

    “As for congestion pricing, it will dampen demand, unlike the usual tax-and-spend remedies.”

    Upon what do you base this assertion? HOT lanes exist on the 91 freeway in California. There was no magical disappearance of people who need to go to work in the morning and come home in the evening. People didn’t suddenly decide they could afford the ultra-expensive housing in the dense urban utopia to save money on tolls or speed their commute. The lanes did accomplish their primary goal of creating profit through congestion — the private companies that bankrolled the lanes got themselves a killer contract buyout from the county. Taxpayers are still footing the bill for that one.

    “Where can you find the “official” plan for these congestion tolls?”

    Here.

  11. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: official plan:

    http://www.virginiadot.org/projects/resources/NorthernVirginia/CapBeltwayTrafficRevReport.pdf

    re: the politics of toll roads.. i.e. voting them out of office, et all…

    better check one’s own ideas with others…

    “Public Prefers Tolling to New Taxes, Study Finds”

    “There’s a wealth of survey data suggesting that the public would rather pay tolls for new highway capacity than have their gas taxes increased. That’s a principal finding of an important new synthesis report from the National Cooperative Highway Research Program of the Transportation Research Board.”

    ….

    “The research project examined 110 U.S. public opinion studies on some aspect of tolling or road pricing carried out over the past 10 years.”

    http://www.reason.org/surfacetransportation54.shtml#feature1

    http://www.ibtta.org/files/PDFs/win08_Zmud.pdf

    yes.. I realize this yet another example of a massive conspiracy to fool the public.. so be careful what you believe…

  12. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “There’s a wealth of survey data suggesting that the public would rather pay tolls for new highway capacity than have their gas taxes increased.”

    Well, of course they would. That’s because the majority of the public realizes they will not be affected by tolls: it is yet aother way to tax the guy beind the tree, let’s tax NOVA and not tax me.

    They won’t have THEIR demand reduced, won’t have THEIR costs increase. And all the while they continue to drive on roads that are provided way over the capacity needed – unlike their “friends and colleagues” in NOVA and HR. They will continue to drive long distances if they wish (for whatever reason) and no one will claim that THEY should pay full costs for THEIR choices.

    BAAHH!

    Never mind that for decades, much of the funds to provide that excess capacity came (one way or another) from NOVA and HR.

    RH

  13. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: debates on the merits

    saying that that because toll roads destroy the environment we should opposed toll roads is a novel concept especially since toll roads reduce air pollution and “free” roads increase it.

    I mean the opponents of toll roads claim that the real purpose of them is to make people drive ..less…

    so..if they actually do what the opponents claim – wouldn’t that actually result in cleaner air?

    and seriously.. how much more of a “footprint” does toll infrastructure take up anyhow when the “footprint” is basically the median and currently stranded interchange land?

  14. Lyle Solla-Yates Avatar
    Lyle Solla-Yates

    Groveton-

    I agree with you that there should be more coverage on HOT lanes. In response to your question about whether toll facilities will create choke points, the HOT lanes will be using E-ZPass transponders to handle transactions automatically at speed. Drivers without E-ZPasses who want to use the HOT lanes will have their licenses read and bills mailed to them. So in practice, the toll tech shouldn’t choke traffic. I wrote a great deal more on this subject in my two articles on HOT lanes.

    Lyle Solla-Yates

  15. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “since toll roads reduce air pollution “

    No, they do not.

    The best you could say is that they reduce air pollution compared to other roads.

    But the local study on HOT lanes have told us that they will reduce the use of car pools, increase traffic in the HOT lanes, and increase traffic on surface streets, and cause some businesses to relocate, which some claim will lead to more travel.

    Therefore, you cannot even accurately claim that toll roads (or at least the locally proposed HOT lanes) will result in less pollution.

    Higher fuel tax will result in less pollution (than otherwise) because people will grvitate to more efficient vehicles over time.

    RH

  16. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Isn’t it the proponents, not the opponents, of toll roads that claim they will result in “demand reduction”?

    Regardless of who makes the claim, now the issues isn’t whether it does or doesn’t, but whether the benefit (congestion and pollution reduction) is worth the cost.

    Since the local study suggests there will be no reduction in congestion or pollution, then there can be little doubt that it is not worth the costs.

    At this point tyou have to make a distinction. Overall, there is no reduction in pollution or congestion, so overall the costs are not justified.

    But, you could argue that for the individuals who pay the tolls, THEIR individual congestion and pollution are reduced, and they are the ones paying (most of) the costs.

    I would submit that if that’s all we get out of it, is still isn’t worth screwing around with.

    RH

  17. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Robert Frank explains why gas taxes are too low:

    “The production and consumption of many other goods, however, generate costs or benefits that fall on people besides buyers and sellers. Producing an extra gallon of gasoline, for example, generates not just additional costs to producers, but also pollution costs that fall on others. As before, market forces cause production to expand until the seller’s direct cost for the last unit sold is exactly the value of that unit to the buyer. But because each gallon of gasoline also generates external pollution costs, the total cost of that last gallon produced is higher than its value to consumers.

    The upshot is that gasoline consumption is inefficiently high. Suppose that pollution costs are $2 for the last gallon consumed, but that its $4 price at the pump is just enough to cover its direct production costs. Reducing production and consumption by a gallon would then cause consumers to lose fuel that they value at $4, which would be exactly offset by the $4 in reduced production costs. The $2 in reduced pollution costs would thus be a net gain for society.

    That simple example captures the classic breakdown in the invisible hand when a product’s market price doesn’t reflect all its relevant social costs and benefits. In such cases, the simplest solution is to discourage consumption by taxing it. “

    From Environmental Economics

    RH

  18. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “How about all those who said demand for driving was “inelastic?” “

    RH suggested that demand does not change.

    US DOT say driving in March went down 4.3 percent or 11 billion miles, the largest drop ever!!!

    That was March, this is May and prices are higher and people are driving even less.

    RH get your fact straight.

    Your Business As Usual employers will doc you pay.

  19. Bob Avatar
    Bob

    This is the conceptual drawing of the Beltway HOT lanes. It’s obvious the project requires a much larger footprint than four extra general purpose lanes. (Best I could find on the official site)

    Conceptually, it’s obvious why the HOT footprint must be larger. The choice is between no separation between general purpose lanes and HOT lanes, which kills people, and having separation, which kills trees (and wastes millions in extra right-of-way costs).

    “So in practice, the toll tech shouldn’t choke traffic.”

    The transponders don’t create chokepoints, but the lane layout does. Take a helicopter-eye view of 95/395 and you’ll see a sizable portion of the congestion comes from the on/off locations for the existing HOV lanes. Another chunk of congestion comes from idiots slowing in the general lanes to look at cops writing up the single-occupant drivers in HOV. The rubbernecking effect is one of the many unintended consequences of pushing policy based on ideology and not reality.

    Pollution is worse with HOT lanes for the following reason. Cars at idle have greater emissions. More congestion means more idling.

    HOT lanes create an market incentive for the operators and the state to maintain congestion in the general purpose lanes. Because you won’t see congestion reduction, you won’t see any pollution reduction either. That is, not unless the state is willing to subsidize the investors.

  20. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    Bob – I’ve thought that you have generally made good arguments against toll roads, even though I disagree with you on their merits. To be candid, my bottom line is that anything that discourages more development in NoVA is good for most people. Toll lanes would do that better than a gas tax increase.

    Isn’t there a problem with building general purpose lanes in places such as Fairfax County because of EPA issues? It’s my understanding that, despite some improvement in air quality, it is unlikely that the EPA would approve of a significant increase in general purpose lanes on major highways or the construction of major highways in NoVA.

    Moreover, could we even afford the costs for acquiring rights-of-way and construction? I suspect that, if Kaine figured he could raise taxes high enough to afford those costs, he would try to build general purpose roads. But the choices may well be public/private toll roads or nothing.

    Unless we all want to live in little congested closets, perhaps NoVA has grown just about as big as it can and not collapse under the weight of congestion.

    Save Fairfax County; pave the Piedmont!

    TMT

  21. Jim Bacon Avatar
    Jim Bacon

    Anonymous 2:30 p.m., Thanks for pointing out the latest USDOT figures on vehicle miles traveled. That’s big news, worthy of a full-fledged post.

  22. Bob Avatar
    Bob

    TMT, I agree with you — tolls are perfect if you’re anti-development. Most toll proponents aren’t honest about this (not referring to people here). Here’s proof in black & white of how the Beltway project is specifically written to stop improvements that would reduce congestion or increase carpooling.

    From the contract pdf, taxpayers must pay the Australians if new general purpose lanes are needed, say, ten years from now. The formula for the payment is extremely complex and I can’t begin to comprehend it — looks like the payment can be $0 depending on whether the HOT lanes are making gangbusters profit margins. Here’s the clearest snippet of the contract:

    Pg. 76
    “if the Department determines that additional traffic lanes on the Capital Beltway Corridor are in the State’s best interests, the Department shall consult with the Concessionaire as to an appropriate strategy to implement such additional traffic lanes on the Capital Beltway Corridor or, at the Department’s sole discretion, permit the construction of additional lanes as part of the Project with a view to minimizing any detrimental impact on the Project or its ability to generate Revenues… In the event that the Concessionaire determines not to pursue the construction of new HOT Lanes or toll lanes or the Department does not approve such Project Enhancement, and the Department adds Additional Traffic Lanes (whether general purpose or tolled), such Additional Traffic Lanes shall be a Department Project Enhancement.”

    Project Enhancement requires payment.

    Pg. 77 of the contract:

    “The parties agree that the Department may, at its sole cost and discretion, develop, design, finance, construct, operate, and maintain the following improvements: …(ii) improvements to I-66 outside the Capital Beltway Corridor; ….The parties will agree, in connection with such a Department Change, on additional costs directly resulting from construction of the change, if any, for modification of the HOT Lanes in Virginia Project that may be required to enable the improvements contemplated in Section 9.02(f).”

    So make any fixes to I-66 and you trigger a “Compensation Event” — that means the taxpayers need to write a check to the Australians.

    Pg. 90: Compensation Event terms:
    “After a party hereto submits a Compensation Event Notice, the other party shall be entitled to obtain (i) from the Independent Engineer a comprehensive report as to the Concessionaire’s estimate of the Net Cost Impact attributable to the Compensation Event and (ii) from a traffic and revenue consultant a traffic and revenue study, prepared in accordance with Good Industry Practice, analyzing and calculating the estimated Net Revenue Impact or Positive Revenue, as applicable, attributable to the Compensation Event.”

    Imagine that the public takes the “high occupancy” business seriously and people start carpooling. Well, then the taxpayers need to write a check to the Australians.

    Pg. 93 Excess HOV lane usage

    “The Department agrees to pay the Concessionaire, subject to Section 20.18, amounts equal to 70% of the Average Toll applicable to vehicles paying tolls for the number of High Occupancy Vehicles exceeding a threshold of 24% of the total flow of all Permitted Vehicles that are then using such Toll Section going in the same direction for the first 30 consecutive minutes during any day, and any additional 15 consecutive minute periods in such day, during which average traffic for a Toll Section going in the same direction exceeds a rate of 3,200 vehicles per hour based on two lanes.”

    I could give some real-world examples of some Compensation Event checks. They’re big.

  23. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “US DOT say driving in March went down 4.3 percent or 11 billion miles, the largest drop ever!!!

    That was March, this is May and prices are higher and people are driving even less.

    RH get your fact straight.”

    I don’t dispute your figures.

    Mine were based on an interview on the Sprawl & Crawl feature from this mornings traffic and news network. The reporter was interviewing a gas price analyst, and he was the one who stated that while many people CLAIMED to be driving less, gas consumption is down less than 1%.

    My facts are that I heard a gas price analyst who claimed that actual gas consumption is down less than 1%, whether you use a four week rolling average or a 12 week rolling average. I’m pretty sure I’m correct in saying that, but if his figures are wrong, that’s another matter.

    If your statements are correct and driving is down 4.3% then pretty soon we should see drastic reductions in congestion. I say this because we know what happens on government holidays, and based on studies that claim a 5% drop in travel will result in a 95% reduction in congestion.

    And we should see reductions in fuel consumed. So far, the market analysts say that hasn’t happened.

    This isn’t a question of me being right or wrong, (I have no axe to grind one way or another) it is a question of what is actually happening.

    Let’s say USDOT is right, we have seen the largest drop ever. Cool.

    Let’s say you are right, people are driving even less now, so we will see a bigger drop.

    Then we should see less gas consumed? Right?

    Then what?

    Gas gets sold overseas at the same price? U.S. gas prices go down?

    If gas prices go down, will driving go back up? Probably. What does that tell you about demand? It is still out there. So don’t confuse Demand with quantity demanded at a given price.

    And, we are seeing the larest drop ever, at a time when the economy is in distress. We saw the same thing happen locally when silicon valley was in economic distress. I’m not sure we should get too excited about “the largest drop in driving ever!!!”

    Before long, we might be wishing we could say that congestion is our friend.

    so the point on this mornings show was precisely that people CLAIM thay are cutting down on driving, but those claims are not yet seen in gas consumption.

    How does U.S. DOT get their data? Is it from surveys? Is it from traffic meters? Is it from gas consumption data?

    I’ll readily agree with you, something seems inconsistent, and that was the point of the interview this morning.

    So, we all agree, right?

    But we still don’t know what is actually happening. And the object is to find out, not to beat up on each other.

    RH

  24. Bob Avatar
    Bob

    “Thanks for pointing out the latest USDOT figures on vehicle miles traveled. That’s big news, worthy of a full-fledged post.”

    I hope you weren’t planning to use that as an example of why we need to move from gas tax to tolls — which is how USDOT manipulated that news item into a propaganda piece. Either VMT is not down in Virginia, or the logical leap between VMT and fuel tax revenue cannot be made:

    “Motor Fuels Tax collections increased 4.4 percent in March. Annual collections through the first nine months of fiscal year 2008 are up 2.7 percent.”

    source PDF

  25. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “HOT lanes create an market incentive for the operators and the state to maintain congestion in the general purpose lanes.”

    which leads back to the old question I previously asked: Will the contract for the HOT lanes require that tolls be set for maximum throughput, or will the operators be allowed to set the tolls for maximum revenue?

    Those are almost certainly two different things with different results for net benefit to the various parties.

    RH

  26. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “Either VMT is not down in Virginia, or the logical leap between VMT and fuel tax revenue cannot be made:”

    Heh, heh, heh.

    More inconsistencies. More fun.

    Can we also say that if VMT is not down, then the logical leap between fuel price and fuel usage cannot be made? that the demand is inelastic (at these low prices)?

    Tax on fuel in Britain is 185% (combined VAT on top of fuel tax). Diesel is the equivalent of $10 per gallon, but they still have lorries on the road.

    Maybe we actually have considerable room for higher gas taxes.

    Anybody know what the truth is, please stand up.

  27. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “To be candid, my bottom line is that anything that discourages more development in NoVA is good for most people. Toll lanes would do that better than a gas tax increase.”

    There you go. A candid response.
    If it is true that discouraging more development in NOVA is good for most people, then toll lanes would probably be a better answer.

    I’m not against toll lanes, I’m against bad arguments. As soon as Larry says he favors tolls to reduce traffic in certain areas and redistribute it, to reduce development in certain areas, and redistribute it, then I’m sold.

    But if he tries to sell me on toll roads to increase traffic, reduce congestion, and increase residential development in Fairfax, I’ll continue to have a good chuckle.

    RH

  28. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “The FHWA’s “Traffic Volume Trends” report, produced monthly since 1942, shows that estimated vehicle miles traveled (VMT) on all U.S. public roads for March 2008 fell 4.3 percent as compared with March 2007 travel.”

    “The estimated data show that VMT on all U.S. public roads have dropped since 2006.”

    http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/pressroom/fhwa0811.htm

    Anonymous:

    Which do you believe, estimated data, or reported fuel sales?

    RH

  29. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    “Public Prefers Tolling to New Taxes, Study Finds”

    I prefer tolling to new taxes. However, I don’t favor a huge increase in costs for a very small percentage of road users with no increase in costs for the vast majority of drivers.

    I prefer tolling to new taxes. However, I wonder about a scheme whose proponents never want to implement the brilliant idea in their own region (despite observable congestion on some roads in that region).

    http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/3349

    “Trucker lobbies were fiercely opposed to a project that used coercion to get them into the toll lanes, and understandably so.

    They talked diversion onto local roads, generating opposition in communities along the parallel free routes. They defeated the plan politically.”.

    Interesting … I guess the truckers didn’t participate on the opinion polls.

    I prefer tolling to new taxes. However, I question a plan that starts the “congestion toll experiment” on what many see as the most economically important roadways in the state. I also question why any new idea would have an initial term measured in decades.

    As for improving human settlement patterns in NoVA – this won’t do it. You want higher densities in “core NoVA” and lower densities outside “core NoVA”. So, you make it expensive to go into “core NoVA”. You set up a cordon toll. If you live and work in “core NoVA” – no problem – you spend your life inside the cordon. If you live outside the cordon but work inside the cordon, you have a problem – the commute is expensive. Maybe you should consider moving – inside the cordon. But this means tolls on Rt 28 and Rt 66 and Rt 7 and Rt 1 – not just I95 and I395. And it means that people inside the cordon don’t pay a confiscatory tax to drive a few miles on the Beltway. What would happen? Housing prices outside the cordon would fall. Housing prices inside the cordon would rise. Congestion would decline. Of course, some towns and counties outside the cordon would find themselves short of tax revenue. And the localities inside the cordon would have more tax revenue. There would be more affordable housing outside the cordon and less affordable housing inside the cordon. Lower wage scale jobs inside the cordon would be manned by workers living outside the cordon and commuting via public transportation.

    Wait a minute …

    I’ve been to this place … I even lived there for a while.

    It’s called Manhattan. In Manhattan – the real estate costs (rent or own) create the cordon. There are no “McMansions”, there is no suburban sprawl. Population density is high and a huge percentage of the commuters use public transportation. The “creative class” loves living there.

    Of course, NYC occasionally teeters on the brink of bankruptcy. And RoNY is pretty much of an economic basket case. And the taxes are sky high everywhere in the state. And Hillary Clinton is one of the senators. And when the jobs leave NYC they don’t go to Syracuse or Buffalo – they go to NJ or India.

    Hmmm….

  30. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: using congestion pricing/cordon tolls to influence settlement patterns.

    I hope not.

    I don’t think we know enough to go beyond the stated purpose which is to reduce rush hour congestion by encouraging those that don’t need to drive at rush hour (estimated at 40%) to not drive at rush hour OR to give those who feel they are adversely affected at option to pay for a more reliable trip.

    re: opinion polls

    yeah.. it would be good to do those polls in areas where there are existing toll roads.

    or perhaps poll the folks who pay tolls and ask them if they prefer tolls to higher taxes.

    but the folks in the recent poll down in HR/TW ..they were pretty emphatic…

    they are already not unfamiliar with tolls having the CBBT nearby and the fact that some of tunnels used to have tolls on them…

    those folks know they need more tunnels and bridges and they are pretty adamant about higher taxes.

    Some of the HR/TW elected leaders are openly suggesting that tolls and concessions should be in the mix.

    re: the “Australians”.

    I don’t get it. We like to try to sell the Aussies caterpillar tractors and Ford trucks and they try to sell us infrastructure…

    does planting seeds of mistrust really contribute to the discussion on the merits?

    “Transurban is an Australian transnational corporation which operates toll roads all over the world.”

    why is this any different than:

    “Ford Motor Company is an American multinational corporation”

    Is there something specific to Transurban and the way they conduct business that would be relevant to their role that is at issue?

  31. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I concede to having beat up onthe foreigners unnecessarily.

    I’m all in favor of free trade. What are the chances an American company would be allowed to build a toll road in Australia?

    I’m all in favor of arguing on the merits. What are the merits of diverting transportation funds through a corporation, American or otherwise, other than being able to claim we didn’t raise “taxes”?

    “…the stated purpose which is to reduce rush hour congestion…” which WCOG recognizes won’t happen. It will increase traffic by allowing people to buy their way out of car pools. (If we are going to allow them to buy their way out, maybe we should be willing to pay them, in order to buy their way in. A free market requires competition.) Bob’s snippet on what happens in the event of excess carpools tells the story.

    Re: Manhattan.

    A WAPO columnist this weekend described New York as the place where infrastructure goes to die.

    At the rate things are going, this project is going to be overtaken by events. If that happens, count on a big “Compensation Event”.

    Why does that sound like a party at transurban?

    RH

  32. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    I may have made an error.

    At current prices fuel sales could be up in terms of dollars and still be down in terms of gallons.

    This could account for some of the discrepancies we see.

    RH

  33. Groveton Avatar
    Groveton

    I’ll be in Australia next week. I’ll ask around about the possibility of a non-Aussie company operating a toll road down under. The Australian economy is very interesting. It looks a lot like the US economy on the surface. Then you dig a bit deeper and things start looking a lot different.

  34. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “What are the merits of diverting transportation funds through a corporation, American or otherwise, other than being able to claim we didn’t raise “taxes”?”

    what are the merits of taxing everyone for infrastructure for only some while giving worthless IOUs to the folks who don’t get infrastructure?

    What about the merits of letting each person decide on a per use basis whether they are getting their money’s worth for infrastructure and if it is not worth it to them..they can decide not to pay any more?

  35. Anonymous Avatar
    Anonymous

    “what are the merits of taxing everyone for infrastructure for only some “

    we disagree on the meaning of only some.

    Everyone in the state has free roads to ride on. For the most part they are adequate and uncrowded.

    Only some will have infrastructure they pay twice for, and pay continuously for.

    Only some will have paid out for decades so that others could have something besides the dirt roads they would still be driving on otherwise.

    And these are the same “only some” that are now getting back bad IOU’s from the rest of the state for infrastructure they won’t get.

    After you subtract out the costs of providing the infrastructure necessary for each person to make their own individual decision (the same decisions, day after day), there aren’t any merits.

    RH

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