America’s Petroleum Refining Capacity in the News – What is Going On?

By James C. Sherlock

This is a note about perhaps the highest profile national inflation issue, the price of gasoline and diesel.

The President is demanding more supply from U.S. refineries.  Headlines like this one blare at us today:

Biden threatens oil companies with ’emergency powers’ if they don’t boost supply amid inflation spike.

The letter behind such headlines, which is exactly what it seems to be, was sent to the largest refiners in the country.  Among other things, the President wrote:

My administration is prepared to use all reasonable and appropriate Federal Government tools and emergency authorities to increase refinery capacity and output in the near term, and to ensure that every region of this country is appropriately supplied.

I looked up the data on oil refining that Mr. Biden’s Energy Information Administration has published.

From the numbers on American refinery input and capacity, Mr. Biden will need more than “emergency powers” to increase refining output.

He will need a a genie.

Refining input and capacity.  Let’s ask the federal government.  This U.S. Energy Information Administration chart was downloaded today:

The input and capacity units are thousands of barrels (42 gallons) per calendar day of petroleum.  Here is the spreadsheet of monthly figures since 1985.  The last published data was from March, but it tells us a lot.

The terms used have the following definitions.

Gross Input to Atmospheric Crude Oil Distillation Units

Total input to atmospheric crude oil distillation units. Includes all crude oil, lease condensate, natural gas plant liquids, unfinished oils, liquefied refinery gases, slop oils, and other liquid hydrocarbons produced from tar sands, gilsonite, and oil shale.

Operable Capacity

The amount of capacity that, at the beginning of the period, is in operation; not in operation and not under active repair, but capable of being placed in operation within 30 days; or not in operation but under active repair that can be completed within 90 days. Operable capacity is the sum of the operating and idle capacity and is measured in barrels per calendar day or barrels per stream day.

Operating Capacity

The component of operable capacity that is in operation at the beginning of the period.

Idle Capacity

The component of operable capacity that is not in operation and not under active repair, but capable of being placed in operation within 30 days; and capacity not in operation but under active repair that can be completed within 90 days.

Operable Utilization Rate

Represents the utilization of the atmospheric crude oil distillation units. The rate is calculated by dividing the gross input to these units by the operable calendar day refining capacity of the units.

The President referred to capacity and output.   But output is constrained by not just capacity, but also by input volumes and costs.

People not associated with the oil industry tend to think of oil producers and refiners as integrated – the Exxons and Chevrons.  Most of them are not.  Most exploration and production (E&P) companies are just that.  Most refiners are just that.  As are nearly all pipeline companies.

When gas prices are high we tend not to remember when they were low.   For a look at the variations of input prices over time, I offer the chart below of the peaks and valleys of the price of West Texas Intermediate.

Volatility, thy name is crude oil.

70 years of prices of West Texas Intermediate Crude Oil

Both E&P companies and investors in new refineries have to try to plan to make money despite those fluctuations.  Operational refineries deal with them. So do  oil field service companies who provide and service the rigs.  When price is down, drillers can’t or won’t borrow to invest and supply goes down.  Service companies lay off workers and lose money anyway.  Tough business, oil.

If supply goes down too much, which it always does, it drives price back up and the cycle begins again.

Now, added to the market risk is political risk.  President Obama rejected the Keystone pipeline permit. Mr. Trump reinstated it. Mr. Biden cancelled it again.

That pipeline was to take heavy Canadian tar sands oil to U.S. refineries on the Gulf Coast that could process it in place of heavy Venezuelan crude.

For those that will argue “that was only one pipeline”, put yourself in the places of investors in the oil industry. The political risk became so high with the political ascendency of the greens in the Democratic party that, after the Obama Keystone decision, long term investments in major new refineries were not made here.

Mr. Biden campaigned promising to eliminate the oil industry. Perhaps that has an effect on long term investment decisions. Just guessing.

The spreadsheet shows that Gross Input in March was the third highest recorded in that month since 1985.  So input might be increased a little, but not much.

Now look at the idle capacity in March, the last month for which data are published and the first month of the war in Ukraine.  On the spreadsheet you will see that from September of 2021 to March of 2022, idle capacity was reduced over 90% – before the letter.

In March of 2022, the total idle refining capacity capable of being put into operation in 90 days was 220 thousand barrels per day.  Historically on a monthly basis since 1985, that is about half of the average idle capacity available.

So American refineries can expand capacity if they have the input to use it, but not by a lot.

Bigger picture. I offer readers an article from June 5 that may help with the bigger picture.  It surely has something to fire up every side of this debate.

The investment calculations of the energy companies are explained by Mike Worth, the CEO of Chevron.

You’re looking at committing capital 10 years out, that will need decades to offer a return for shareholders, in a policy environment where governments around the world are saying, ‘We don’t want these products to be used in the future.’ So even if a company like Chevron was willing to commit the time and capital to build a refinery, it doesn’t make sense given the shift toward cleaner alternative energy.

The President, at least right this moment, cannot tell Mr. Worth how to invest his shareholder’s money.

As for the more pure play refiners than Chevron, the article informs that:

Marathon recently formed a joint venture to build a $2 billion renewable fuels project, while Valero is accelerating the expansion of its Diamond Green Diesel project to finish it by the fourth quarter of this year.

Even that story did not mention that the nation’s oil company work force is one of the oldest we have and is not being replenished.  What kid wants to set his sights on a future in the oil industry when he is being told in school and in the press it is evil and that it will be out of business in a decade?

So the energy companies are moving on from petroleum refineries – a triumph for the greens and the President’s publicly sworn enmity to the industry.

The Mainstream Media.  Publicly jawboning American companies to increase petroleum refinery capacity and output in the United States will get headlines from the MSM.  Mission accomplished.

But don’t look for detailed MSM follow-up stories.  Except to tell us that the oil companies did not make major increases in refinery output, ignoring the President, who tried so hard to look out for us.

I’m going to guess that conditions before the letter was written – input and capacity being nearly maxed out and the oil refiners switching investments to alternative energies – will not come up.

What now for the President?  Perhaps price controls are next.  But of course those have always worked to reduce supply.

Venezuelan oil?  The Gulf Coast refineries that used to specialize in that very heavy oil have already expensively converted to use lighter American crude.

So the President has reportedly authorized what little Venezuelan oil that is now produced to be shipped to Europe to be refined.  Problem is that the output of the Venezuelan oil industry collapsed after the U.S. companies that used to run it left.

The Saudis?  Mr. Biden told them to drop dead.  Finding they did not, he will visit them soon to ask for both forgiveness and an increase in oil production.

Damn, this President job is tough.

The left can take a victory lap. For readers on the left, just like Mr. Biden, you are winning.

Six- or seven-dollar regular gas, seven- or eight- dollar diesel, higher prices for everything refinery products are used to plant, manufacture and move and deep recession are what winning looks like.

Enjoy them.

Updated June 16 at 7:15 AM 

 


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135 responses to “America’s Petroleum Refining Capacity in the News – What is Going On?”

  1. facts are pesky little creatures…..

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      You should look for some. Go to eBay. Type “clue”. Click “buy”.

  2. Lefty665 Avatar
    Lefty665

    The Dems will have so much winning they will become tired of winning.

    Maybe Biden will use the Defense Production Act to make baby formula producers switch to refining gasoline.

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      What switch? Abbott was producing contaminated baby food that was every bit as safe as feeding them gasoline.

      1. Lefty665 Avatar
        Lefty665

        You do know that the strain of Cronobacter sakazakii that killed the kids was not found at the Abbott plant don’t you? OTOH I’m not sure demented old Joe knows that you can’t make a baby food factory refine oil.

  3. Kathleen Smith Avatar
    Kathleen Smith

    Great article. Middle and high schoolers could learn a lot from what you wrote. So why is it the President’s advisors don’t get it? ??????

    1. James Kiser Avatar
      James Kiser

      because they are experts LOL

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Because they’re knowledgeable and sophisticated, don’t just copy stuff from one website, jump to conclusions and pronounce themselves an expert.

      1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
        James C. Sherlock

        The President is sophisticated. When he released oil from the National Petroleum Reserve no one told him it had to be refined. Now he’s pissed.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          And how does a crude oil pipeline change this? By putting more raw product in the pipe that still can’t be refined?

          1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            You should ask the President. Or not.

            The short answer is that Canadian tar sands crude delivered through Keystone would have been far cheaper than U.S. light sweet crude delivered to the same refineries.

            The details. TransCanada’s Keystone Oil Pipeline was proposed in February of 2005. It was initially favored, and then killed, by the Obama administration. President Trump invited TransCanada to reapply in January of 2017 https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/DCPD-201700068/pdf/DCPD-201700068.pdf . The new application was approved. It was killed again by Mr. Biden in January of 2021. 16 years total investment of time and resources and nothing.

            The U.S. refineries that intended to process the heavy Canadian Oil were led by Valero and Phillips 66, independent refiners.

            During an April 2015 interview, Valero CEO Joe Gorder said that the pipeline would enable the company and other refiners to use domestically produced oil rather than feedstocks from the Middle East or other nations.

            Heavy crude once fetched a big discount compared with light crude, but it has narrowed to nearly nothing after sanctions on Iran and Venezuela and then the government Keystone fiasco.

            By 2020, because of the lost supplies from Venezuela and Keystone, heavy sour crude delivered to U.S. refineries soared in price, wiping out the price advantage and raising the cost of the products, including aviation fuel, gasoline and diesel produced by those refineries.

            Marathon Petroleum Corp in late 2020 halted plans to add a coking unit to its Garyville, Louisiana refinery that would have processed more heavy crude. Marathon said the coker, which was expected to come online in 2021, was no longer financially viable due to narrowed spreads. U.S. refiners rely on cokers to break down residual oils into other refined products, including gasoil and naphtha. Refineries without that capability typically process more light crude, produced in abundance by the United States, versus heavy crude, which U.S. refiners have to import.

            So substitution U.S. light sweet crude for the now-unavailable, much cheaper, Canadian heavy crude has driven up the price of refined products in the United States.

            You may wish to tell the President. If he and you keep going around in those circles both of you will get even dizzier.

  4. Kathleen Smith Avatar
    Kathleen Smith

    If putting out a certain size fire requires 30 gallons of water, and I only have 10, my fire is not going out and it might spread!

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Rate. If it takes 30/min, a well aimed 10/sec might do it. Of course, we guys are practiced.

  5. DJRippert Avatar
    DJRippert

    Three weeks ago Biden was talking about how good the increase in gas prices was for the world.

    https://youtu.be/NUf58QEqauU

    1. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      Churlish of you to remind us of ancient history. So much has changed since then. We must have completed the “transition” he was also extolling way back then. Everything is different now in this wonderful new world of the future.

  6. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    The price has to drop and soon. The feather-footed drivers are makin’ me crazy!
    They bought big SUVs and Pickups and now take a damned mile to get to 45! You’ll waste more gas idling at the next stoplight than if you romp down and make it!

    1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      The “accelerate and run the yellow light” impulse would work better if there was only one stoplight, but many do it anyway. Including me on occasion if I am in a hurry.

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Our lights over on the Peninsula are set for “green waves”**. If — big if — you get up to the speed limit, you can get a half dozen green. Go slow, get stopped at every damned one of them.

        ** can’t say it’s intentional, but it sure looks that way.

  7. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    Production is up, refining is up. The supply side doesn’t have much more to give – not sure what Biden has in mind but I don’t think he can do much else. You know what else is up? Oil corporation profits… bigly…

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Record $35B

      1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
        James C. Sherlock

        When prices are up they make a lot of money. When prices are down they lose a lot of money. It is called the business cycle in commodities. The left only notices when prices are up.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          When have you known them to lose? And, no, profit is tacked on. Costs and profits are not intrinsically interwoven. If the cost to produce doubles, that doesn’t mean profits do too.

          1. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            If rate of return remains constant and price doubles it is more dollars. But of course RoR has to be discounted to constant dollars due to inflation. That means even more inflated dollars.

          2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            So “profit is tacked on”. Well, it is not. Your comment caused me to make a major update to the article. The update starts “People not associated with the oil industry”. Read it.

          3. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Like you?

          4. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            If opinion writers had to work in the industries on which they comment, newspapers would not have editorial pages.

            It is called research, assess and publish, Nancy. You should give it a try.

  8. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    This data seems to refute much of the conservative criticism of the administration on this blog lately. First, there have been complaints about the administration canceling leases or not leasing out public lands. But, “Gross Input in March was the third highest recorded in that month since 1985.” So, the drillers are pumping more oil.

    Then there is the refining capacity. The high gas prices are being blamed on the administration’s discouragement of the development of additional capacity because of its emphasis on renewable energy. But, as the representative of Chevron points out, it takes a long time to build a refinery. Some estimates are 5-7 years. https://www.profitableventure.com/long-cost-build-refinery/#:~:text=Using%20the%20above%20average%20size%20%28between%20250%2C000%20%E2%80%93,depending%20on%20the%20scope%20of%20the%20project.%20

    Therefore, even if the administration were not pushing to phase out fossil
    fuels in the foreseeable future, it would take 5-7 years to get new refineries on line. That would not help the price of gas today.

    Bottom line: Demand dropped during the pandemic. Because of decreased demand, oil companies needed to reduce production. They made a business decision to shut down their older, less efficient refineries. Now that the pandemic has eased up, demand has come surging back. That, in itself, put a strain on the system. Couple that with the war in Ukraine and you have a classic case of high demand and lower supply.

    1. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      You’re completely absolving POTUS Biden’s policy’s that’s have impacted price, merely because you belong to the party he does.

      Oil is traded in futures, when someone campaigns using language about ending fossil fuel they aren’t going to invest without the possibility of ROI.

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        You ignore my argument. Even if Biden had not campaigned on a platform of ending fossil fuels, there would still be a shortage of refining capacity now. Companies shut down old refineries during the pandemic due to the drop in demand.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          You didn’t make a logical argument. You parroted a White House talking point without any knowledge of Oil Refining.

          Also, your go to argument from ignorance.

    2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      You are once again trying to serve as an apologist for the indefensible.

      Mike Worth is not “a representative” of Chevron, Dick, he is the CEO. Go to the entire article I linked and read and consider what he had to say. He knows more about energy investment and production than you and I will ever know.

      The command economy policies of the left are forcing transition to green energy in a petroleum-based economy well before green energy technology and infrastructure are ready to pick up the load.

      If you look, you will understand how much of not only the economy but modern life depends upon the products of fossil fuels. The economic results of a policy-driven premature shift are becoming catastrophic.

      You and your cohort dismiss the rest of us are “climate deniers”. Most of us want the same outcomes as you. I know I do. But we understand that we cannot cook a two-minute egg in 30 seconds without making a mess.

      I hope you not only do not depend upon stock or bond investments for your retirement, but also grow your own food. You will need it.

      As I wrote, though, take a temporary victory lap. This is what success looks like.

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        For the sake of this discussion, let’s assume that the Biden administration did not have a policy of transitioning off fossil fuels. How would that help the situation right now? Chevron and other companies would be willing to invest the money needed to build new refineries, but those refineries would not be on-line for 5-7 years. So, we would still have a lack of refining capacity to meet the current demand.

        1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          Obama rejected the Keystone pipeline permit. Trump reinstated it. Biden cancelled it again.

          That pipeline was to take heavy Canadian tar sands oil to U.S. refineries on the Gulf Coast that could process it in place of heavy Venezuelan crude.

          Don’t argue “that was only one pipeline”. Put yourself in the places of investors in the oil industry. The political risk became so high with the political ascendency of the greens in the Democratic party that, after George W. Bush left office, long term investments in major new refineries were not made here.

          Biden campaigned promising to eliminate the oil industry. Perhaps that has an effect on long term investment decisions. Just guessing.

          1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            I am not disputing the long term effects of the Democrats’ push to phase out fossil fuels. The point I keep making and everybody avoids dressing is that, in the short term, there would have been a shortage of refining capacity, regardless of the long term policy goals of Biden and other Democrats.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            but that does not fit the partisan narrative…

            and no matter refining capacity – the price of refined oil is determined not by how much the US produces (or not) but the world market for crude.

            Used to be, Conservatives were the truth-tellers when it came to the economy.

          3. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            I don’t know if I answered this, so I will try. There is not a shortage of refining capacity in the United States. There is a shortage of refining capacity when demand exceeds supply of refined products. That is not the situation we are in here in the United States. We have no shortage of refined products. No gas lines. But gas, diesel and everything else that is produced by refineries is expensive.

            Europe has a shortage of refinery output because their refineries are getting cut off from Russian crude feedstock. They will have gas lines. America have no capacity to ship any more refined products to allies than we are already doing. Not enough ships. Not enough port facilities. The same with crude. Europeans will have to get what they can from the Middle East. But it will not prove enough I think.

            In America we have high prices for our refinery output because the inputs are more expensive than they used to be, partially because we no longer have access to cheap foreign heavy crude. But we have plenty of light sweet American crude feedstock for now. It is just a lot more expensive than Venezuelan and Canadian heavy sour crude. Which is staying in the ground because they either can’t produce and ship it any more (Venezuela) or can’t ship it (Canada) to American refineries through the cancelled Keystone.

          4. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            The shortage of refining capacity to which you refer is not in evidence except in the President’s mind.

            He is (literally) flailing around trying to find some reason other than his own administration’s war on fossil fuel, of which he is very proud, for high prices.

            He has settled this week on the evil oil companies “withholding” refinery capacity being one of the culprits for high prices. The MSM is trying to help him with that narrative.

            Last week he blamed it on the war. Still does.

            European refineries are directly affected by the war because they use (or did use) a lot of Russian oil as feedstock. American refineries do not use Russian crude at any significant level.

            America exports about 18 million barrels of gasoline and diesel a week. Our refineries produce about 18 million barrels a day. But there is a reason that the administration has not yet banned exports. Those exports go to allies who depend upon them. Are we going to blow up those contracts and relationships for cheaper gas?

            The price of gasoline leaving the refinery depends in considerable measure on the price of the refinery feedstock.

            We refine oil primarily now from the U.S. We used to refine a hell of a lot of Venezuelan crude. No more of course. They don’t produce enough now to provide significant supply to us anyway.

            And we can’t get cheap Canadian crude to the U.S. refiners designed and equipped to use that heavy crude as feedstock because of the loss of Keystone.

            Keystone was designed and funded to address exactly the loss of cheap Venezuelan supply. Because it is much cheaper than WTI. So now refined products coming from U.S. refiners are much more expensive than they need to be.

            We won’t see gas lines in America over the nest hew years that we had in the 70’s because of the fracking revolution.

            But we are not replacing proven domestic reserves because of Democratic green policy embodied in Mr. Biden, so we are assuring future shortages after you and I are dead.

            Finally, “the short term” is not relevant to refining. Refining capacity is not a short term issue.

            The oil companies have read the Democratic platforms since the Obama administration.

            Under what particularly strange set of circumstances do we think they would, since that became a Democratic red line, have invested in major new refineries?

            This has rambled a bit, but I hope it has answered your question.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: ” But there is a reason that the administration has not yet banned exports. Those exports go to allies who depend upon them. Are we going to blow up those contracts and relationships for cheaper gas?”

            whoa!

            So POTUS … COULD do this and who says the ban couldn’t be selected and protect the allies?

            So the chart below confirms that the price of oil/gasoline is set by world demand – and oil companies do choose to export it to the highest bidders.

            Our consumer prices are determined by world demand.

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/dcef8caaa8ae088277aaed044129c2774cc4af915c827ec805664b351334ac49.jpg

            https://www.spglobal.com/commodityinsights/en/market-insights/latest-news/oil/052522-biden-administration-weighs-us-oil-export-limits-again-but-analysts-so-far-doubt-action

        2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          Obama rejected the Keystone pipeline permit. Trump reinstated it. Biden cancelled it again.

          That pipeline was to take heavy Canadian tar sands oil to U.S. refineries on the Gulf Coast that could process it in place of heavy Venezuelan crude.

          Don’t argue “that was only one pipeline”. Put yourself in the places of investors in the oil industry. The political risk became so high with the political ascendency of the greens in the Democratic party that, after George W. Bush left office, long term investments in major new refineries were not made here.

          Biden campaigned promising to eliminate the oil industry. Perhaps that has an effect on long term investment decisions. Just guessing.

    3. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      If Biden understood that refinery capacity was a limiting issue why did he release millions of barrels of oil and deplete the strategic reserve instead of pushing the industry to reopen refining capacity? Same question with pushing OPEC and Venezuela to ship us more oil?

      Was Biden duped by a Putin stealth operation to raise the price of gas due to a lack of refining capacity?

    4. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      See my detailed response to NN below. This is just a summary

      Canadian heavy crude delivered through Keystone to Valero and Phillips 66 refineries designed to process heavy crude would have been far less expensive than U.S. light crude delivered to the same refineries.

      That pipeline was first proposed in 2005.

      The failure to complete it has resulted in higher prices for all refined products, including gasoline and diesel.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        re: ” The failure to complete it has resulted in higher prices for all refined products, including gasoline and diesel.”

        Nope. The price is determined by world markets.

        You’re talking about profit.

  9. James Kiser Avatar
    James Kiser

    So Joe Biden is head to Saudi land to kiss the ass of the Crown Prince or maybe get shoved up his you know what. LOL

  10. James Kiser Avatar
    James Kiser

    In 1982 the US had 301 refinery’s producing fossil fuel products in 2022 we have 124 and 6 of those are getting ready to shut down. Butthead Biden is going to need 3 genies. Say hello to 7 dollar gas in Aug 2022.

    1. Crosswalks to Nowhere Avatar
      Crosswalks to Nowhere

      The only Diesel refinery on the east coast burnt down in 2019, no plans to replace it or do anything. Not a big deal i guess since diesel isn’t used for much…

    2. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      Say hello to 7 dollar gas in Aug 2022. Optimist.

      1. James Kiser Avatar
        James Kiser

        Well remember the Wash Post ran an article calling those of us who said that gas would go to 5 dollars a gal due to Bidens policies fear mongers. That was in Nov 2020. I don’t want to appear too much as a prophet when gas actually climbs to ten by Labor day.

        1. Lefty665 Avatar
          Lefty665

          When that happens the pumps and signs will be in digit crisis again. Remember when gas went over a buck and some of the pumps could not handle the extra digit in price? It was hard on the rest of us too.

          We will see how high it has to go to drop consumption by a million and a half barrels a day. I’m afraid it will be where that rising curve crosses the downward one on the economy as we descend into recession. You’re right. North of 10 bucks would not be a surprise.

        2. Lefty665 Avatar
          Lefty665

          When that happens the pumps and signs will be in digit crisis again. Remember when gas went over a buck and some of the pumps could not handle the extra digit in price? It was hard on the rest of us too.

          We will see how high it has to go to drop consumption by a million and a half barrels a day. I’m afraid it will be where that rising curve crosses the downward one on the economy as we descend into recession. You’re right. North of 10 bucks would not be a surprise.

  11. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Just a google of “refinery fire” in news tells me we have a safety issue… not a production issue…

    https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/lyondell-houston-refinery-shuts-coker-after-fire-sources-2022-06-14/
    https://www.wdsu.com/article/st-charles-parish-refinery-fire/40272293
    https://hungarytoday.hu/mol-danube-oil-refinery-fire-szazhalombatta-hungary/
    https://en.mehrnews.com/news/188014/Massive-fire-reported-in-Haifa-refinery
    https://www.rigzone.com/news/too_early_to_speculate_on_exxonmobil_refinery_fire_cause-10-jun-2022-169292-article/
    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-hampshire-61708438

    They’re just different fires within one week and didn’t even move to page 2 of the results.

    Again, international and domestic, we export gasoline. Sales are all done to maximize profits in milliseconds by very sophisticated algorithms. If a refinery in Hungary explodes, fuel products from Houston are diverted to be sold at higher European prices.

    Think Enron on steroids.

    1. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      And when we get converted to solar nirvana searching for “battery fire” will get similar results. The more things change…etc. Concentrated energy is dangerous stuff.

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Saudis have committed to producing 50% of their domestic energy needs from renewables by 2030.

        It’s not just lip service. It’s smart business.

        The less fossil fuel they use domestically, the more they can sell at grotesque prices to the stupid Americans who just waste the stuff.

    2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      I had to study refineries intensely in order to plan air strikes on them in a certain Middle East country many years ago. Guided munitions can be very efficient and effective, but you need to know where to target them for maximum effect. If I remember correctly, there is a specific level on a cracking tower that is the optimum aim point.

      Refineries are dangerous by nature. If the companies try to run them flat out, say to satisfy a politician, they are more so. Maintenance is preferable to repair. But both require shutdowns. Human error and lack of maintenance are the sources of nearly all fires. Except for air strikes like the ones the Iranian drones fired (mostly) from Yemen visit on Saudi refineries. Hope the President doesn’t plan to visit one.

      The human error mostly comes from new hires. Like the ones hired to expand production.

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        With a 10m CEP, hitting that aimpoint isn’t as easy as you think. Somebody who built the PGM might even tell you that 22 JSOW missiles took a joyride and not because the pilot made an error with his aim point. Want to talk SLAM-ER? Or Tomahawk?

        Got to be a part of a SLAM-ER captive carry test. The best one was the prebrief point came up on the MFD and the pilot began slewing about looking for his target. “Ah ha! There it is!” Time after time he sent corrections as the missile guided the captive aircraft to the location being sent. Then suddenly, the seeker began slewing all over; the pilot realized he’d locked on to a tree. Meh, nothing’s perfect.

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Wow! It just dawned on me. 1st Gulf War. PGM for you would have been Tomahawk-D LAM DSMAC stuff and SLAM. TOMAHAWKS Worked much better than anticipated but the AF was responsible for target selection. Geez, they wasted them. Sending 10 missiles where one or two would do. SLAM worked very well considering the datalink was FM using the AWW-13 pod, a relic from Walleye in Vietnam.

        You must’ve been doing scene selection stuff at NOB. Congrats on the less than 24-hour turnaround. That was impressive.

        Now, Tomahawk ASM, that was a damned scary missile. 400NM range on INS and you were as likely to hit some poor schmuck on a Carnival cruise than a ship in a Soviet SAG.

        Speaking of Walleye and the AWW-13 pod. The pod was dubbed the “sewer pipe” because it was built from a standard 18″ steel pipe with fiber glass cones on the ends, 700 or 800 pounds and attached to a weapons pylon. Story was one pilot missed his target, a bridge, with the missile and just dropped the pod on it. Took it out.

        1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          Reasonable assumption, but incorrect. I was Carrier Air Wing 7 operations officer embarked in USS Dwight D Eisenhower on station in the Gulf of Oman during the Iranian hostage crisis and the start of the Iran-Iraq war.

          We had PGMs that required precision target selection including laser-guided bombs, Walleye I and II and others. The Tomahawk targeting was done back in Norfolk.

          I was privileged to later command that same air wing as a Captain embarked in the same ship in the Persian Gulf in 1991. Literally in that case what goes around comes around.

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Strictly missile man. Knew some Paveway people, including the guys who put the extension on one to go after Saddam’s bunker. Damned bomb was almost as long as the F-16. The one they dropped to test in New Mexico buried itself so deep they lost it.

          2. YellowstoneBound1948 Avatar
            YellowstoneBound1948

            Captain, you had a fine career. Thank you and congratulations. My father was an Annapolis grad, which took us to many naval air stations. I remember living in quarters at the Norfolk NAS (“Breezy Point”) and admiring the A-6 Intruders that were overhead and omnipresent. Early in his career, my father was stationed on the Leyte and the Wasp. He and I were on active duty at the same during the last four years of his 30-year naval career. I was promoted to Army captain just prior to his retirement. He called me captain, and I called him captain. Those are happy memories. BTW, I applied for army aviation but was too tall!

          3. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            Thank you.

  12. walter smith Avatar
    walter smith

    For anybody interested in realty, Bannon’s show played the admin spin, followed by real world economics and the realities of production and refining.
    Suffice it to say that Joe has F’ed it up royally and is casting blame everywhere as usual. Go to 17:45 to start

    https://warroom.org/2022/06/15/episode-1931-big-maga-wins-in-battle-ground-states-bidens-energy-secretary-doesnt-care-if-you-have-to-pay-10-a-gallon-let-them-eat-solar-the-nyt-censorship-list

  13. The kiss and make up tour is a waste of time. OPEC doesn’t really have any spare capacity, but they are scrambling to add it. Middle east offshore construction is on fire. Plus, who the hell thinks that everyone would can pump a barrel at 130 per isn’t going full tilt right now. It’s a historic $ opportunity.

    And when China starts comes back on line later this year, it’s going to get worse.

    1. James Kiser Avatar
      James Kiser

      China announced in April it was increasing its coal by 7% and India announced the same in Late May.

      1. I don’t understand the relevance. You can’t run an internal combustion vehicle with coal.

        1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          Steam powered airplanes!!

          1. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            Remember John Hartford!

        2. James Kiser Avatar
          James Kiser

          the relevance is the hysterical screaming about carbon.

          1. I didn’t know there was anyone reminding who still thought coal was a good idea. Even utilities that have it don’t want it. Doesn’t mean we can get rid of it though. Never will.

  14. Donald Smith Avatar
    Donald Smith

    In November, we’ll all have a chance to cast a vote of confidence (or no-confidence) in the energy path the progressives, Democrats and MSM want to impose on us.

    Make no mistake, the left wants to kill off fossil fuels. Who would make a long-term investment in fossil fuels, knowing full well that, as soon as gas prices fall and the American public’s interest wanes, the leftists will be right at the fossil fuel energy industry’s throat again?

    So, if we want to keep fossil fuels, there’s going to have to be an unmistakable groundswell of public support, soon, that will make the anti-fossil-fuel crowd back off.

    1. Crosswalks to Nowhere Avatar
      Crosswalks to Nowhere

      Both sides are idiots and do nothing to make us stronger. If a politicians energy policy doesn’t include a heavy investment in nuclear they’re not worth voting for. Left wants to go full wind/solar, products made almost exclusively in China. Right wants to make us only use fossil, products that are sourced heavily from Saudi Arabia who perpetrated the 9/11 attacks and we keep giving them weapons for some reason. Both plans make us weak, and reliant on nations that are not our friends.

  15. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Lego my Eggo? Coming to Va?

  16. James C. Sherlock Avatar
    James C. Sherlock

    Driven by the questions of commenters, I made a major update to the article today at 7:15 AM. It starts at “People not associated with the oil industry”.

    1. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      As someone who was born in Appalachia 15 minutes from where the first Oil Well was intentionally drilled and where two major Refiners resided until the mid 90’s. I can assure other posters they weren’t drilling themselves.

      I can still smell that distinct odor and remember the stories of my Grandfather working rolling doubles as a boilermaker there.

      1. YellowstoneBound1948 Avatar
        YellowstoneBound1948

        Titusville? I remember the 1959 commemorative postage stamp. I bought hundreds of them, and still use them from time to time. Thanks for your comment!

        1. Matt Adams Avatar
          Matt Adams

          Indeed, the refinery’s were Pennzoil and Quaker State.

          A lovely place that was ruined by the wonderful John D Rockefeller, who everyone loves to heap praises upon.

          1. YellowstoneBound1948 Avatar
            YellowstoneBound1948

            Arnold Palmer was their spokesman for a long time. He was quite a guy.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Been to his home Country Club in Latrobe, didn’t play but had a dinner there.

          3. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            Also home of Rolling Rock beer and little 7 oz bottles aka “Green Devils”.

          4. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            Once upon a time, Rolling Rock is now InBev and brewed in Jersey. Iron City took over the old digs.

          5. YellowstoneBound1948 Avatar
            YellowstoneBound1948

            Iron City? Now, you’re talkin.’

          6. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            Jersey. Ah sacrilege, yet another treasured memory destroyed. 🙁

          7. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            When they were bought by Anheuser-Busch (InBev) they moved their brewing to Jersey. Still label it as Latrobe, but if you want that you’re gonna need to drink Iron City. However, good luck getting that in VA.

  17. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    “Now, added to the market risk is political risk. President Obama rejected the Keystone pipeline permit. Mr. Trump reinstated it. Mr. Biden cancelled it again.

    That pipeline was to take heavy Canadian tar sands oil to U.S. refineries on the Gulf Coast that could process it in place of heavy Venezuelan crude.”

    “According to a 2019 economic review document published by the Government of Alberta, “the breakeven [WTI] price for a new stand‑alone mine is currently within the US$75‑85/ bbl range,”

    https://www.macrotrends.net/1369/crude-oil-price-history-chart

    So Trump reinstated the Keystone when they would lose $10 to $20 for every barrel shipped through it?

    “Yeah, but Nancy, you don’t understand, they would have made it up in volume.”

    1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      You do know the difference between West Texas Intermediate and the heavy Canadian crude that would have flowed through Keystone, don’t you? And the difference in price? Right?

      You are too smart, I hope, to think that TransCanada was going to spend a couple of billion dollars to build a pipeline to transport heavy crude for which there was going to be no demand at Gulf Coast refineries.

      So do I give you too much credit? Are you the bot that many here think you are?

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Benchmark, Captain. Kinda like the dollar to other currency. When, for example WTI is at $60, Canadian tar sand is virtually losing money when extracting. And while there may be a market, explaining to your shareholders why you’re spending billions gets tough.

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            The problem isn’t supply. It’s moving it. But not from Canada. It’s moving it from Russia.

            What we know, some from the Captain, some you need to find.

            1) there is no shortage of fuels in the US, albeit refineries are pumping like mad. I haven’t seen any lines, rationing, or “out of gas” signs.
            2) Canada is pumping dirty stuff to the Gulf in the existing pipeline. It’s not being refined. It’s being shipped to elsewhere (Europe?).
            3) the refineries didn’t need the Strategic Reserves. According to the Captain, it was a joke on Biden.

            We didn’t create a shortage with Russia. We only complicated the supply movement. China and India are only too happy to use Russian oil rather than the expensive stuff. As China comes on line, it’s going to buy Russian oil, not from the borse. There will still be plenty.

            We’re just being gouged.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            re: ” 2) Canada is pumping dirty stuff to the Gulf in the existing pipeline. It’s not being refined. It’s being shipped to elsewhere (Europe?).”

            that seems counterintuitive – why do that?

            Other question – Canada also has oil refineries and a port to export – why ship to the US?

          3. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Well, Captain sez they prefer Venezuelan instead.

          4. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            I dunno. You’ll have to ask him. But there was a refinery in Wisconsin that handled tar sand until it blew up. Corrosion.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            It appears that most of it is trans-shipped outside the US to be refined. It takes a different kind of refinery than sweet crude.

            But the idea that the US/Biden causes a shortage of oil in the US by blocking the Keystone does not seem to be the truth.

            What I read says that Canada is shipping tar sands oil at the highest rate ever and there is plenty of pipeline capacity to do that AND that several other pipelilnes and expansions HAVE been approved.

            So what’s the truth here and is Sherlock telling the whole story and truth or is he engaging in anti-Biden gaslighting?

          6. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            He surely must be. He studied it for days, maybe even a week if not hours.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            so he wouldn’t be making a partisan gaslighting type argument?

        1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          You cannot seriously think that Valero, Phillips 66 and TransCanada did not plan for the historically certain volatility of oil prices when they invested heavily in the transporting Canadian crude to the gulf coast via pipeline. You are implying that Joe Biden saved them from themselves. You can’t be serious, and I hope you are not. If you are, send that line to the President. He is desperate for a life line.

          1. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Oh Captain, please don’t throw me in the briar patch. Teck canceled the largest mine plans because of price in 2020. Opposition to XL and price kept it from going forward. TRUMP ISSUED PERMITS on his 4th day in office. Four whole years, and what did they build?

            Guess they’ll just have to make it on the existing pipeline.

  18. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    there are two basic and fundamental issues:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b48fb1e3f42a14aa38466ebe9009af260eb1c00c42d91bb175038edd26a45a16.jpg

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e19b1891cd132fa028473bc766d2d2554fc71c3b79e8daef3bd7949dafffd64d.jpg

    so no matter how many pipelines are built or stopped – if there is no additional refinery capacity it cannot be refined and sold.

    And even if there is refinery capacity , the price of it is determined by world markets.

    No matter how much more we produce in the US, it won’t reduce the price of fuel because it’s sold on the world market according to world market prices.

    One can especially understand this if you look at the price of natural gas which has skyrocketted like gasoline because producers of natural gas can sell it domestically or export it. They can make a lot more money exporting it and they do – and they use existing NG pipelines to do it – pipelines which normally feed domestic demand. The only way for domestic need to get met is to pay the price that NG will fetch overseas – essentally outbid what exporting can bring.

    Most all commodities prices are set by world markets – and domestic producers will export it if it can bring a higher price overseas. It works that way for oil, NG, corn, pork bellies, etc.

    A POTUS CAN affect this by altering export policies and/or putting tariffs on.

    For instance, we COULD put an export tax on crude oil so that it would
    fetch more profit if sold domestically by not having to pay that export tax.

    We can also put taxes on imports making them more expensive than domestic commodities.

    1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      The competing refinery feedstocks in question are sweet, light West Texas Intermediate and the much cheaper, heavier Canadian tar sands oil that was to flow through Keystone.

      If Keystone would have delivered Canadian oil to the Gulf Coast refineries designed to process heavy oil, the Canadian crude would have been far less expensive as feedstock.

      And the prices of gasoline, diesel, aviation fuel and other products of the refining process would have been cheaper.

      That is why, for example, CITGO, Valero and Phillips 66 stations used to have the cheapest gasoline. It was refined from heavy Venezuelan crude refined on the U.S. Gulf Coast. No more Venezuelan oil imported, of course, and Venezuelan production has collapsed with the withdrawal of U.S. managers anyway.

      That is why TransCanada was planning to spend a couple of billion dollars building the pipeline. And Valero and Phillips 66, who own the refineries in question, supported it.

      Give them credit for understanding the economics of the oil industry.

      And stop polluting the conversation.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        By and large today, the price of each kind of oil is set by world markets.

        re: ” If Keystone would have delivered Canadian oil to the Gulf Coast refineries designed to process heavy oil, the Canadian crude would have been far less expensive as feedstock.”

        you’re talking the difference between the cost for the oil to the producer and the value of it on the world market.

        you say “used to have the cheapest gasoline”

        that’s no longer true – why?

        1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          International. You speak of world markets. No such thing at a refinery when it procures feedstock. It is where it is.

          That refinery uses input feedstocks that cost different prices at crude wellheads and at way station storage facilities at both ends of the various forms of delivery including pipelines, trains, and crude delivered to ports by ship. Each of those transportation mechanisms of course adds its own costs.

          Those costs all add up to the feedstock prices at any refinery.

          It is far more expensive to bring crude from this hemisphere “to the world market” than to refine and use it here.

          North America. As a simple but much commented upon real North America example, let’s take two types of crude delivered to the Cushing OK hub and then to a refiner on the gulf coast.

          Cushing is the world’s largest crude oil storage complex and represents 16% of the US capacity.

          In this example, WTI crude from Texas or New Mexico and Canadian crude from the tar sands are delivered through two different pipelines to two different storage facilities in the Cushing complex. From Cushing each is delivered by two parallel pipelines to a Gulf coast refiner. The Canadian crude would have been much less expensive to that refiner. That was what Keystone was meant to do.

          Cheap gas. The gas stations mentioned used to have the cheapest gasoline because the refiners that owned them used to refine very cheap Venezuelan crude.

          Hope that helps.

    2. Crosswalks to Nowhere Avatar
      Crosswalks to Nowhere

      Oil executives are increasing shareholder kickbacks, stock buybacks, and continuing to shut down plants. They’re doing the same thing as the meat packing industry and ammo industry. Meat packing? Owned by a handful of companies. Ammo? owned by two. Refining, Meat, and ammo are all hyper consolidated industries and they need to be broken up. We’re getting screwed as americans by our own companies

    3. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      Basic and fundamental. Wow.

  19. I was disappointed in this article. I thought it was going to provide clarity into the disparity in the historical gas prices compared to the historical prices of crude oil and possibly eluding to the notion that the problem is in the refining process. Instead it stands for the notion that “Biden is bad”. It would be helpful if someone could connect the dots and explain to me how the cost of crude is lower today (scroll up and look at the West Texas Intermediary line graph) than it was in June 2008 (when it was at its highest at 181.58 per barrel) and judging by the same graph, the price of crude is cheaper today than it was for a number of years in the early 2010’s. So if the price of the raw material used to produce gasoline is not at a historical high, what is the explanation for todays historical high gas prices? It appears that despite the reduction in daily capacity, there is still enough capacity to distill the amount of barrels coming into the refineries. So what’s the explanation? Gas prices conveniently shot up right when Russia invaded Ukraine, but as the WTI graph shows, we’ve seen higher crude prices and as the provided spreadsheet shows, the U.S. Refineries still have the capacity to distill the amount of Crude they are receiving. So where is the bottle neck and who is profiting from it? Because an acceptable answer isn’t “Biden is bad” nor is it “Putin is Bad”.

    1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      “It would be helpful if someone could connect the dots and explain to me how the cost of crude is lower today (scroll up and look at the West Texas Intermediary line graph) than it was in June 2008”

      Fracking is the answer to your question as to why U.S. production (West Texas Intermediate) is up since 2008.

      But your question seems to assume that WTI is the only feedstock available to refineries. It is not, or at least did not used to be. Heavy crude from outside the United States was far cheaper. Still is, if the refiners can get it.

      That is why there are so many refineries on the Gulf Coast.

      The loss of cheap Venezuelan heavy crude feedstock to the refiners is a big difference between the input costs now and then. Even with additional supply of WTI, the refiners’ feedstock prices are higher

      Keystone was going to transport heavy Canadian crude to replace the lost Venezuelan supply. Now it won’t. And all of the products refined at those refineries are more expensive.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        when it comes to gasoline – the price of it is not tied to what kind of oil was refined to produce it.

        beyond that, the price is determined by world markets – not the cost of the crude used.

        The cost of the crude affects the profits of the producers and refiners but once the product is refined – that price is set by world markets.

        we can produce MORE but the price will not be less because we produced more – the price of however much is refined is set by world demand – like all commodities are.

        1. I think that’s where my beffudlement lies. The simple supply and demand model we were taught in school cannot completely explain the gas hikes. Production isn’t notably different (supply) and consumption (demand) is slightly lower than pre-pandemic levels. So what’s the explanation for the giant hikes in the prices of gas? I suspect that there is a loophole somewhere in the market that’s being exploited and profited from by somebody (maybe in one those international derivative financial instruments that not a whole lot of people understand, for example). In the mean time, the Democrats are going to say this is all Putin’s fault. The Republicans are going to say this is all because Biden is completely impotent and is unrealistic in his energy policy. The Oil and Gas Lobbyists will see this as an opportunity to get some favorable things passed through Federal and State legislatures. In the end I suspect we’ll discover what the loophole is and who is profiting from it and then there will be outrage. The response to the outrage will be that’s just capitalism. Such a response misinterprets the reason for the anger. The anger will not be from someone initially profiting from the loophole, rather it will stem from the active con deployed to keep this loophole from being exposed. With all that being said, I’m certainly not an expert on this industry, so time will tell how far off the mark I am.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Investopedia has a more complete explanation

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6fc8e037d1c3932365b512e479b5a480fba9ca5d5200efbe63467a8a0391c8ce.jpg

            https://www.investopedia.com/articles/economics/08/determining-oil-prices.asp

            I, like you, try to not be fooled by either the Dem or GOP partisan spinning.

            Hedge fund folks make bets on supply/demand – comprehensively and granularly across many aspects of the market and that very definitely influences oil still in the ground and not yet being extracted and shipped.

            But the whole ball of wax still is basically all the ins and outs of supply/demand – on a more complicate level.

            The USA is fundamentally a capitalist country and economy that rewards risk and innovation – and it can and does come at the expense of the consumer.

            We get to vote with our wallets but that does not mean we are not at the mercy of the capitalists!

            We do have laws and regulations.

            We actually DO have the ability to limit oil exports to try to restrict to US only market but we normally can’t force the oil folks to extract and pump the oil and they’ll just shut down and wait it out.

            We CAN invoke the defense production act but that act is not designed to influence supply/demand/prices but rather actual shortages where the product is just not available at any price – like was happening with some items during the pandemic.

            all the above IMHO of course.

  20. walter smith Avatar
    walter smith

    Is Sadie a new pseudonym for Larry?
    I thought Larry worked for the NIH/CDC/Dr. St. Fau(x)ci, but maybe he works for the Energy Dept/EIA/Jennifer Granholm…
    Our allegiance to the fake “science” behind “Climate Change” and the Green Nude Eel, has led to adopting policies that have discouraged drilling and refining. This raised the price of oil. The rising oil prices enriched Putin. The woke military that lets our ships burn up in harbor and abandons $85 billion of arms in Afghanistan while raising Pride flags over embassies only further emboldened Putin, which led to the invasion which has exacerbated the oil prices and will lead to food shortages and inflation and incredible suffering. All from the “smart” people.
    Biden and the Lefties and the Greenies OWN it.
    Shall I now move onto the medical authoritarianism failures? From our public “servants”? You know, the ones who funded gain of function research?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Ah yes, the obligatory daily report from LA LA Land!

      😉

      1. walter smith Avatar
        walter smith

        When did you start commenting about your own posts? That’s a little tacky. I expect more from paid liars.

          1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            I asked you to stop polluting this blog, yet here you are.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Talk to Walter first – seriously.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Talk to Walter first – seriously.

            ” Is Sadie a new pseudonym for Larry?
            I thought Larry worked for the NIH/CDC/Dr. St. Fau(x)ci, but maybe he works for the Energy Dept/EIA/Jennifer Granholm…
            Our allegiance to the fake “science” behind “Climate Change” and the Green Nude Eel, has led to adopting policies that have discouraged drilling and refining. This raised the price of oil. The rising oil prices enriched Putin. The woke military that lets our ships burn up in harbor and abandons $85 billion of arms in Afghanistan while raising Pride flags over embassies only further emboldened Putin, which led to the invasion which has exacerbated the oil prices and will lead to food shortages and inflation and incredible suffering. All from the “smart” people.
            Biden and the Lefties and the Greenies OWN it.
            Shall I now move onto the medical authoritarianism failures? From our public “servants”? You know, the ones who funded gain of function research?”

            Why do you not complain about THAT post?

          4. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            I am much handsomer than that Larry. This is when I had hair…a mere 8 years ago… before leukemia and bone marrow transplant (so I do kinda know more medically than you can imagine, and I did file a patent for an improved IV pole based on that experience), but I’m the “wackadoodle” …. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c96bc6eea816590076024297b2307218794a564cae7b3ec7aff5f850b10d3af4.jpg says Larry

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I just listen to your words Walter – never worried about your looks and glad you had success with the medical issues.

          6. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            And you never refute my words Larry. You find an article, usually dated, or misleading in some respect, from one of your trusted sources and post it as proof, without actually reading it. I actually read the articles you and Troll cite, and find the flaws.
            My favorite in the past few years was the CDC article that said vaxing on top of natural immunity was better. IF you read it, it had five qualifiers that it admitted to, that basically destroyed the findings. BUT, it allowed the CDC to make the claim for the headline readers, and for the media to repeat it endlessly as truth. But it was rubbish – 246 from a selected subset, that they weren’t even sure about, and then all sorts of other problems. It was literally propaganda.
            I also enjoyed all the CDC mask guidance. Incidentally, UVA and the VDH did nothing except follow the CDC. With respect to masking, NO ONE anywhere actually wore masks as the CDC guidance said. I pointed that out to the BOV and attached the CDC article when UVA announced its last continuation of the mask requirement. I asked if they knew anyone, including themselves and all the teachers, who complied with the standards. UVA did drop it a week or so later, and I would like to think it was because they read what I provided, but I rather suspect that it was because the CDC knew it had lost the country and had to drop it…cuz SCIENCE! and not politics (which is all the Left thinks about)

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Just went to the Doctor today Walter. The sign on the door said “Masks ARE Required per CDC guidance”.

            You said you have medical issues. Do you go to the doctor ? If you do, are you required to wear a mask?

          8. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Yes I am and they are meaningless, except perhaps in the operating room, or in the bone marrow clinic.
            And no one wears them in accordance with the guidance.
            It is a performative exercise. And the doctors and nurses will tell you so and sigh that they have to comply because of the CDC/HHS/ and all the alphabet agencies controlling the purse.
            I hereby decree that you must waltz into a doctor’s office – it will get the heart rate up and will increase agility, thereby reducing sickness and injury.
            Now I’ll publish a study with cherry-picked data to prove my thesis. You’re welcome. See, because I love humanity, I am increasing your lifespan through my benevolent rulemaking (and the selfish reason is so I can continue to run down your false ideology).

          9. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            so do you have to wear a mask to see the doctor?

            Does the doctor ask you if you have been vaccinated?

          10. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Are you violating HIPAA and trying to find out personal, private info? My body, my choice!

          11. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            nope. Just asking if your doctors do what my doctors do and require masking and also want to know if you are vaccinated.

            that’s just asking for what their policies are – not about your personal health info.

            come on guy – you can’t be forthright?

          12. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            No. A doctor may ask questions about your health. My doctor may ask questions about my health. Maybe I have found a doctor who doesn’t require an answer to the vaccination question and I need to protect xe or xer.
            Seriously, what does that have to do with anything?
            Prior to Covidiocy, no one cared. And I refuse to play the stupid fear game. Prior to going to the grocery store, do you check to make sure you are safe? What about all the people who prior to Covidiocy were routinely granted exemption to the STATUTORILY REQUIRED (you know, the way LAWS are supposed to happen) vaccines? Oh, the danger everywhere! And you didn’t know! How did you survive?
            The masks are performance art. You know it. But you’ll never admit it.
            Here are the rules for safely using a mask…
            How to Care for Your Mask
            Correct and consistent care for your mask helps to provide the best protection

            How to take off your mask
            Disposable masks and cloth masks: Untie the strings behind your head or stretch the ear loops and fold the outside corners together.

            For reusable cloth masks
            If your cloth mask is wet or dirty, put it in a sealed plastic bag until you can wash it. This will keep it from getting moldy.
            If your cloth mask is dry and clean, you can store it in a breathable bag (like a paper or mesh fabric bag) to keep it clean between uses in the same day.
            Cloth masks should be washed at least once a day or as soon as they become wet or dirty. You can either wash and dry your masks by hand or use a washer and dryer.
            Wash or sanitize your hands after removing any mask.
            Taking off your mask while you eat or drink
            If you are taking off your mask to eat or drink outside of your home, you can place it somewhere safe to keep it clean, such as your pocket, purse, or paper bag. After eating, put the mask back on with the same side facing out. Be sure to wash or sanitize your hands again after taking off your mask and after putting your mask back on.

            When to throw away or change your mask
            Disposable masks should be thrown away after they’re worn once.
            If you use respirators, check the manufacturer’s instructions to learn how long they can be worn before they should be thrown away.
            Disposable masks and respirators that become wet or dirty should be thrown away in the trash right away. Do not continue to wear a wet or dirty mask. Replace it with a dry, clean mask.

            I haven’t observed anyone complying with that. Have you?

          13. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            so ALL the health care folks I go to, every one of them REQUIRES a mask as well as wanting to know my vaccination status.

            As far as I can tell, it’s pretty uniform – sign on the door, “Mask required per CDC”.

            So you’re just not going to say eh?

          14. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Already told you I wear the stupid mask. Maybe it is even possible some of my doctors permit mask off (even for xerself) once out of the lobby…
            But I am not going to play the stupid vaccine game, and you obviously did not read the CDC instructions for mask wearing, which even you don’t comply with, nor even the nurses and doctors.
            I guess we are back to does 2+2 = 4?

          15. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            sorry did not catch that… in the jumble….

            I just follow the sign that says wear the mask per CDC.. and some the docs let the mask come off for those who are vaccinated.

    2. YellowstoneBound1948 Avatar
      YellowstoneBound1948

      Son of Sam is his other name.

  21. walter smith Avatar
    walter smith

    Here is another dose of reality.
    If you think I am enjoying rubbing the Lefties’ noses in this debacle, you would be right!
    But they won’t learn – it’s a religion for them
    Meanwhile, reality means the Normies of America will suffer and more of the world as well…
    but John F’in Kerry and his fellow globalists will be fine, meeting in Davos to work on the Great Reset…
    https://hotair.com/ed-morrissey/2022/06/15/biden-im-demanding-more-output-from-greedy-refiners-to-fight-inflation-n476404

  22. James C. Sherlock Avatar
    James C. Sherlock

    This conversation has exhausted me (and my wife on this day we are planning to go to the beach after lunch). I am done here. Hope the information provided was sufficient to answer some of your questions.

  23. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    One word, Son. One word. Plastic.

    No, no. Oops, not plastic. SHIPS! Put your money in shipping companies. As China’s economy comes out of Covid, they are going to be paying top dollar to get ships to carry all their newly cheaply purchased Russian oil to their shores. Shipping costs gonna go through the roof.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Do oiltankers deadhead after delivering their loads?

      😉

      inquiring minds……….

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