ALEC: Virginia K-12 Performance, Policy Mediocre

Image credit: ALEC
Image credit: ALEC

The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), an organization promoting conservative legislation at the state level, has issued its 19th annual Report Card on American Education, and it places Virginia in the muddled middle for school performance and policy.

On performance, ALEC gave Virginia a 26th ranking based on the gains made by low-income students on 4th and 8th grade reading and math exams between 2003 and 2013. On the policy front, ALEC graded Virginia an F for its pitiful charter school laws and a D for state academic standards but a B- for digital learning and a B for retaining effective teachers. All other categories rated in the C range. (See Virginia score card.)

ALEC deems Indiana to have the best K-12 public policy in the United States. Among other virtues, the Hoosier state is emphasizing career and vocational education for non college-bound students and provides targeted pre-school programs for disadvantaged children. The report also singles out North Carolina for its aggressive school reforms, especially the emphasis on expanding charter schools and school choice for lower-income Tarheels.

The report’s conclusion:

Economically disadvantaged inner-city children would face more than enough challenges in life it they had abundant access to the nation’s most effective schools. Instead, we find districts still largely wedded to unionized industrial factory models. Spending is up, but low achievement remains common. Dropout rates remain high, and waiting lists at the still far-too-scarce high-quality charter schools remain long. Policymakers have been making changes and showing progress with them, but the average urban student may have yet to notice that anything has changed.

Bacon’s bottom line:

Conservatives have a great story to pitch for school reform. While liberals wed themselves to the tired, old 19th-century industrial model and call for mo’ money, mo’ money, conservatives argue that money isn’t the problem. The United States spends more money per student on education than almost any country on the planet, with precious little to show for it. With state, local and federal governments strapped for cash, states need to focus on getting more from the ample investment we already make.

Every other segment of the American economy has restructured over the past half century. Education is the main holdout. Parents — especially parents in lower-income families — need more options about where to send their kids. Virginia needs more charter schools, more school choice and more home schooling.

— JAB


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37 responses to “ALEC: Virginia K-12 Performance, Policy Mediocre”

  1. You miss the point of ALEC. It’s not a matter of liberals standing in the way of ALEC’s reform. Rather ALEC is all about weakening the public school system to make way for privatization and free market profiteering on the public dime. There’s no one who doesn’t want better schools and better opportunities for all students – it’s the basis of our democracy and equality of opportunity, which are just as much liberal as conservative goals (I would hope). But you don’t get there by undermining public schools and teachers, which is what ALEC seems to be all about.

  2. re: ” Instead, we find districts still largely wedded to unionized industrial factory models”

    what blather!

    where in their rating criteria is that reflected?

    4. Teacher Quality

    Delivering Well Prepared Teachers
    Expanding the Teaching Pool
    Identifying Effective Teachers
    Retaining Effective Teachers
    Exiting Ineffective Teachers

    why not be honest enough to use right-to-work or teacher unions in the criteria???

    you know why? because it would completely destroy their lame narrative:

    Education Rankings By State

    Massachusetts
    New Jersey
    Vermont
    Indiana
    Colorado
    Hawaii
    Pennsylvania
    Washington
    New Hampshire
    Florida

    and tell me which of these is right-to-work states and which are “industrial”

    Finally – Massachusetts which ranks at the top and in fact 7th compared to other countries spends $14,142 and Virginia spends $10,656 per pupil..

    In fact if you do a rank list, you WILL find that most of the top 10 do spend more than Virginia does.

    The problem with the ideological lens here is that it”s always looking for cherry picking data and always ignoring things that easily contradict it.

    we DO spend MORE than Europe and Asia but Europe and Asia teach strictly core academics – and of a much tougher rigor than us. We spend money on stuff like astro-turf, guitar and photo-journalism while less than 20% of our AP students take things like College Math or Science.

    The problem with ALEC and conservatives is that they’re truly not interested in real solutions just ideology.

  3. If you want to read a different view of ALEC than the tripe JB dredged up:

    A Smart ALEC Threatens Public Education
    Coordinated efforts to introduce model legislation aimed at defunding and dismantling public schools is the signature work of this conservative organization.

    http://www.edweek.org/ew/articles/2012/03/01/kappan_underwood.html

    ” Recent legislation in Tennessee provides a vivid example. ALEC created and provided members its model Virtual Public Schools Act. Two large for-profit corporate providers of virtual education, Connections Academy and K-12 Inc., had heavy involvement with the model bill’s creation. Mickey Revenaugh, a lobbyist for Connections Academy, was the corporate chair of ALEC’s Education Task Force and Lisa Gillis, with K-12 Inc., chaired its special needs education subcommittee that created the bill. Tennessee’s State Rep. Harry Brooks and State Sen. Dolores Gresham, both ALEC Education Task Force members, introduced the bill to their respective houses nearly verbatim, even using the same title.

    ….

    The bill passed both houses on a party-line vote on June 16, 2011. Shortly thereafter, K-12 Inc.—one of the creators of the model legislation—won a no-bid contract from Union County School District to create the Tennessee Virtual Academy and will receive about $5,300 per student from the state for the 2011-12 school year (Humphrey, 2011). ”

    Now I’d like Jim Bacon to weigh in on the proprietary of for-profit education providers working as lobbyists for ALEC…. writing legislation for lawmakers.

  4. NoVaShenandoah Avatar
    NoVaShenandoah

    I was not disappointed by ALEC’s position. Their goal is very consistently to limit the options, and opportunities, of those with low incomes. I am, however, disappointed that this has become the ‘conservative’ position.

    Let me summarize: it is not right (neither morally nor economically) to channel the people to menial jobs and the restrictions that implies. We should by now reject the concept that material wealth is a genetic characteristic.

    1. IF we want to talk about real solutions instead of ideological foolishness, let’s do this:

      Take a failing school in an economically disadvantaged neighborhood. There are more than a few in Virginia..

      Put out an RFP for providing any/all of a K12 education. The stipulations are:

      1. – you must teach all kids in that neighborhood

      2. – you’ll get every penny currently allocated for that purpose

      3. you’ll be subject to the same SOL standards as other public schools.

      4. for ever point above SOL average, you’ll get an incentive.

      in other words , instead of setting up these cherry-pick voucher programs which do not want the tough job the public school has – we provide a truly level playing field with real competition and kids win no matter what provider prevails.

      ALEC and the other advocates could propose something like this themselves – to demonstrate without question – that they really do believe it’s not about spending more money but doing the job better …for less.

      I’d support that no matter what public school teachers supported or opposed.

      and I do not necessarily think the private sector would fail at this. This is at least an equal chance that the private sector will focus more on the bottom line of cost effectiveness… where-as the public schools – at least more than a few of them in Va – have shown themselves incapable and/or unwilling to deal with kids of economically disadvantaged circumstances.

      We might well see some educational professionals – currently in the public schools who ARE successful – with economically disadvantaged kids – follow their vision and perhaps make more at it than they would for the public schools.

      but the rules would be – same neighborhood, same money, and same academic standards …

      I do not think ALEC or their like-minded Conservative allies are really interested in education myself . I think they would gladly watch it go down the tubes… but I’m willing to admit that maybe, at the least, I support a fair approach. However, I do not think the approach ALEC is proposing is anything but fair .. it’s essentially a stealth attack on public education.

      so, let’s put it to them. Put up or shut up.

      1. NoVaShenandoah Avatar
        NoVaShenandoah

        I agree with the approach. Especially since the current ‘methodology’ is to cherry pick the students at a school and to dump, throughout the year, any who fail to show the desired aptitude.

        Requiring that ALL students be educated, at no greater expense than now, will produce a basis for comparison. Since the ALECs of the world refuse to use this methodology, and instead rely on cherry picking the students, and increased funding, I conclude that their intent is not educate, but impose a certain ideology. Ironically, they are afraid to test their ideology on the same terms they demand of others.

        Perhaps they believe it will prove deficient (as I do).

        1. but you’d separate the principled conservatives from the ideologues… which I think has to be done – to out the posers…

      2. TooManyTaxes Avatar
        TooManyTaxes

        This is a reasonable proposal. It would force taxpayer money into instruction and bona fide related services. Competition will force the layoffs of the huge non-teaching bureaucracies in the United States, provide more money for good teachers, and force both the public and private sectors to be more accountable. I think it’s worth a try.

        1. TMT – its a proposal that could have been made by ALEC –

          1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
            TooManyTaxes

            Better yet, why doesn’t Fairfax County make the proposal and request any necessary legislative authority to conduct a five-year trial at five schools? Simple answer: Jobs, educrat jobs are more important that teaching kids. There is at least a plurality on the FCPS school board who see one of their key missions is to protect jobs.

  5. NoVaShenandoah Avatar
    NoVaShenandoah

    Principled conservatives need to separate themselves.

    1. Principled conservatives are those who agree with liberals, right?

      1. Nope.

        They’re the ones that actually deliver what they say they can instead of advancing lame proposals that they know are bogus from the get go.

        the one thing that is going to undo Conservatives is if they get in charge – and then people find out they really don’t know what to do…

        I don’t think highly of ALEC but if they are serious then they put forth serious proposals – in the light of day not in back rooms with their Conservative buddies and then run when the lights turn on.

        If you think you really can do a better job at education – then do it and stop blaming others and put forth real proposals.

        the only vocabulary that Conservatives have these days is “repeal” and “you lie” and “it’s your fault”. Beyond that – zippo.

      2. NoVaShenandoah Avatar
        NoVaShenandoah

        Hello JAB. A ‘principled’ anything is not a matter of OPINION but ATTITUDE. Let me illustrate:

        1. I am tired of hearing about ‘REAL’ Americans. What are the others, imaginary? I remember when in 2008 Palin came to Leesburg and described how happy she was to be in the real America. I live in Clarke county and she never visited us. What are we, the Soviet Union?

        2. It is my country too. However, when Bush in 2001, who won 49% of the vote -fewer actually than Gore, imposed a restrictive governing philosophy, I did not go around wanting ‘my country back’! In the DEMOCRATIC process you implicitly, and explicitly, abide by the vote. And you don’t threaten ‘2nd amendment solutions’. Perhaps that is the ‘Republican/Conservative’ process, but I would not know.

        3. I am fed up listening to lectures about what ‘America’ stands for from people who waive the Confederate flag, or battle flag – there is no difference, or any other Confederate symbol. However many and much it may upset, the Confederacy was treason.

        I am not a ‘liberal’ nor a ‘Democrat’. But given a choice between those who practice exclusion and those who don’t, I will definitely favor those who don’t. Primarily because I do not have do something just because it is not illegal. (Besides, the law does not dictate my morality nor my ethics).

        I expect principled Conservatives to very publically and loudly admonish those who practice exclusion. But I believe Conservatives are only afraid of being called ‘RINOs’ and will sacrifice their principles (and reason) to that fear.

        I hope I have clarified my position and statement.

  6. LifeOnTheFallLine Avatar
    LifeOnTheFallLine

    Why exactly should we care about what ALEC has to say on education policy? Their own rankings display that the methods they advocate don’t work.

    (ALEC Policy Rank) State [Edu Rank]

    (1) Indiana [ 4 ]
    (2) Florida [ 10 ]
    (3) Arizona [ 47 ]
    (4) DC [ 22 ]
    (5) Louisiana [ 48 ]
    (6) Missouri [ 46 ]
    (7) Oklahoma [ 41 ]
    (8) Utah [ 25 ]
    (9) Colorado [ 5 ]
    (10) Georgia [ 23 ]

      1. Massachusetts Academic Rank = 1 World Rank = 7

        ALEC rating: Policy Grade = c, rank = 22

        this is ideology on steroids…

        You can bet your booties that ALEC is not welcome in Massachusetts… who has teacher unions and spends 14K+ per student.

        that’s _more_ than “interesting”.. that tells you a lot about ALEC… and their fitness to suggest education policy to states.

  7. “liberals” are not the problem … liberals are believers in education as a fundamental opportunity for all kids regardless of their circumstances, – and yes, apologists for the status quo – which works extremely well in some states for many kids (like Massachusetts) but works terribly for many kids of uneducated parents in poverty circumstances in places like Virginia.

    The Conservatives “answer” for this is to blame unions, blame bad teachers, blame the parents and blame genes and culture even in right-to-work states.

    Unrestricted vouchers are little more than stealth proposals to allow parents to send their kids to private schools on the taxpayer dime while the same schools would reject the at-risk demographics.

    ALEC could structure vouches to require all demographics and to be accountable for academic performance but what do they do instead?

    It’s basically a modern-day version of reverting back to “separate but equal” because they know that genes and culture cannot be overcome.

    ALEC is the problem not the solution.

  8. LifeOnTheFallLine Avatar
    LifeOnTheFallLine

    And of course saying we spend more on education spending than anywhere else is a meaningless comparison when you leave out that:

    – All the European countries that beat our metrics have much more generous social welfare programs.
    – All the Asian and European countries that beat our metrics have some sort of universal healthcare.

    The problem with the policy debate in this country right now is that people want to treat the process of education as something distinct from the well being of the child, as if the two could possibly be divorced. The problem with a capitalist framework is that you begin to view everything as a commodity to be tweaked, as if the problem with education has to do with not finding the proper assembly line process with the proper worker incentives.

    Charter schools do not outperform their public school counterparts. Merit pay doesn’t go anywhere cheating scandals don’t follow. And that second part makes sense. Kids aren’t a raw material you can run through some pedagogical Bessemer process to oxidize away impurities. But what you can do is erase wrong answers. Merit pay is a waste of money on four fronts:

    1) The initial cost of providing services not rendered.
    2) Paying out for falsified results.
    3) Paying to verify that fraud took place.
    4) Paying to fire and re-staff.

    To say nothing of the time those kids wasted on a sub-par learning experience.

    This country’s public education system put men on the moon without charter schools and merit pay, but we need them now to produce the next generation of cell phone app developers? Okay.

    1. “merit pay” is one of those Conservative blame game ideas – as if when a whole school has bad results – its because the school is full of “bad” teachers and that unions protect their jobs even in states where there are no teachers unions.

      However, I do support higher pay – stipends – for higher level skills and performance which we already do. We pay stipends for athletic coaches for instance. Why not academic coaches?

      One of the fundamental problems with “neighborhood” schools is that they tend to be divided up into boundaries that reflect economic status. Teachers have choices on where to work – and they avoid the schools where there are problems – and potential sanctions for “bad” teaching.

      You cannot blame teachers for going to the schools where they can have a decent career with good working conditions and reasonable rewards for their work. That does not happen at the troubled neighborhood schools which have turnover rates of over 50%.

      So they hire the clueless out of college or those who are not high performers.

      I’ll be honest. Liberals don’t see to know what to do with these tougher schools and Conservatives are no better…

      but if someone came along and could demonstrably do a better job -then I don’t care if they are a for-profit company or a public school – just move forward.

      The problem is the Conservatives promise results but it’s a hollow promise without a real track record.

      What they are really offering is a way for those that want to move their kids to a pseudo-private school and out of the public system but have taxpayers pay for it – which if you think about it – is not exactly a free market philosophy.

      1. LifeOnTheFallLine Avatar
        LifeOnTheFallLine

        If you can provide an objective way to test teacher performance that doesn’t lend itself to cheating or otherwise gaming the system I’m all ears.

        “Liberals don’t seem to know what to do with these tougher schools”

        I’ve been called a liberal enough on here to own the label for the time being, and I’ve also outlined time and again what can be done to improve educational outcomes. We want to beat countries like Denmark, Japan, et. al without providing the social support of those countries, and that’s just not tenable.

        1. in terms of rating teachers.. it’s fraught with subjective views of principals getting heat for bad school performance and he/she needs some scapegoats.

          there are all kinds of issues with kids that start out below grade level – and have to be sent out for Title 1 help.. now you have more than one person involved.

          so I’ve been convinced that’s too hard to do .. I’m not even sure how you’d do it fairly and objectively in a non-public school setting ..

          but what I do favor is paying premium pay for teachers that go to lower performing schools and agree to take on more difficult teaching assignments in those lower performing schools with testing of the students achievement to be the only rating factor and bonuses for exceeding basic standards.

          in terms of other countries – we have schools right here in Virginia that produce superlative results – even with at-risk demographics and that’s because they know what it takes to accomplish the goal including for at-risk kids and they do it. You see this most often in smaller systems where there are less delineated neighborhood schools with regard to income demographics.

          In the bigger systems , even systems like Fairfax and Henrico – there are huge disparities in academic achievement between schools in those districts.

          Jim spent some time trying to blame it on “culture” but to me it’s clear that some neighborhood schools basically serve economically disadvantaged/poverty neighborhoods – and the good teachers do not want to teach there so the school systems hire right out of college – to teach the toughest kids to teach – a job that takes skill and experience.

          Neighborhood schools have been drawn around income demographics…

          and we blame the problems on parents with bad educations and poverty-scale incomes.

          1. Please explain why it’s possible to rate employees in the private sector but full of all inequity and justice when rating teachers in the public sector.

          2. I think you missed the sentence : ” … I’m not even sure how you’d do it fairly and objectively in a non-public school setting ..”

            you need to talk with some real teachers Jim.

            You get 15 kids and in a poverty neighborhood, most of them are going to be behind grade level.

            how do you rate a teacher under those conditions – whether that teacher is public or private?

            better yet – how about you tell me how private schools do this.. or how you would have private schools do this.

            this is exactly why the better teachers will not willingly take an assignment at a school with a good number of these kids.

            and this is the same reason that ALEC and the voucher guys don’t want nothing to do with this demographic – either and instead want to essentially provide private school to the easier-to-teach demographic.

            be honest here.

            if Conservatives were really serious about this – their proposals would not be so cowardly.. as to try to blame public school teachers – in schools – where the entire school has problems.. and you’re not going to fix it by getting rid of the existing teachers.

            you guys have no solutions.. you have a sound-bite blame-someone perspective and beyond that no answers.

            If ALEC or other conservative groups were truly principled – they’d propose truly principled alternatives instead of the weasel proposals.

        2. If we can test and certify accountants (CPA exam), attorneys (bar exam) and doctors (board certification) I wonder why we can’t test and certify teachers.

          I would vote to pay more in taxes and spend more on education if I thought it would do any good. However, total expenditures per pupil are nearly two-and-a-half times higher today than in 1970, after adjusting for inflation, while student achievement toward the end of high school has been flat or has even declined slightly (in science).

          Seems to me that we have more of a management issue than a financing issue.

          1. re: why doesn’t Fairfax do it and testing…

            First – it’s not Fairfax or the public schools that say they have a problem – even though we know they do – so they’re not going to suggesting reforms.

            and yes – there is some protection of jobs – like you see in more than just school systems….

            ALEC and Conservatives advocate “reforms” but they walk, talk and act like they are not true reforms but efforts to undermine public schools and unions even though the best performing public schools in the US (and the worst) have unions or collective bargaining.

            ALEC and Conservatives do not seek to fix the most prominent problem – that of poor neighborhoods and neighborhood schools that are not adept at successfully teaching at-risk/disadvantaged kids of under-educated and marginally employable parents.

            ALEC speaks with two tongues – on one hand they opposed public schools and unions which they say causes this problem and then instead of taking on this problem directly -they want cherry-pick charter/choice schools whose focus is to appeal to the kids with well-educated parents… not the tougher demographics.

            Teachers already have to get certificates but the “theory” is that any teacher with a College Degree and major in education is capable of teaching any “typical” student. The only place where you find real standards is Title 1 teachers – who have to have a Masters Degree and coursework in teaching the harder-to-teach kids.

            It’s ironic that for all the abuse heaped on the Feds for their involvement in education – it’s only the Feds that actually require certification for teaching at-risk kids.

            And of course – not a word from ALEC or other Conservative groups about the idea of certification – nor how the cost of it would be paid for…

            Their basic idea seems to be to hire even less qualified teachers for even less money and make them work “harder” or some such – you never really know because their advocacy is only sound-bite deep. Their basic premise is that the private sector can do a better job….because they won’t be having unions that “protect”… “bad” teachers…

            I’m not an apologist for the public schools – I’m a critic.

            They spend too much money on things that are not core-academic – and it’s not ‘extra’ money – it’s money they choose to not spend on the neighborhood schools with high numbers of economically disadvantaged because they’re unwilling to pay incentives and stipends to attract teachers with the higher level qualifications – like Title 1 qualifications.

            but to think that ALEC or Conservatives would seek to do this with private/charter/choice schools is ludicrous – you’ve never heard them say that once… They’re just as bad or worse than the public schools.. They would basically refuse to serve the at-risk population unless required.

            their preferred path is to attract the best and brightest students and not the harder-to-teach.

            THAT’s – NOT a private sector SOLUTION!

            that’s just plain bogus motives… but you know – it works these days with the sound bite gullible folks.. They play the same game with health care … “the free market will fix it”.

            No where else on the face of the earth does the free market do that – with education and health care but these yahoos don’t let that troublesome fact affect their “thinking”.

            I’d like to see some existing pilots and examples.. not cherry picks.. but real world charter/choice that deal with a economically disadvantaged population and neighborhood..

            we need MORE real results and LESS ideological blather.

          2. LifeOnTheFallLine Avatar
            LifeOnTheFallLine

            We do test and certify teachers, it’s called the Praxis I, Praxis II and in Virginia the RVE.

            “Seems to me that we have more of a management issue than a financing issue.”

            Children aren’t products and teachers aren’t assembly line workers.

          3. I think few things are important as education. Not just the vitality of our economy – our security as a country… is all predicated not only on education but opportunity for all individuals to have an equal chance at left and to contribute to the betterment of others.

            but it’s also clear that other countries – not just a few – but all the advanced economy countries have moved ahead of us and and we have become mired in worries about the “haves” providing entitlements for the “have nots” – and unfortunately it has not expanded to education with a “too bad” attitude towards the poorer neighborhoods getting the dregs of education resources.

            I don’t think kids are widgets or teachers – assembly line workers – but I do think we know how to correctly assess the deficits and needs of kids – as well as what it takes to get them back on grade level – and the realization that if we do not get this done in K-3 – the kids often start to fall away fall back into the habits of their parents.. It’s a small but hugely important window where most kids – are still relatively innocent and still reachable by the right kind of teacher providing the right kind of help.

            I think we spend too much money for amenities and not enough for that K-3 window in the poorer neighborhoods. You cannot do a good job with these kids with generic college graduates – it takes a more specialized teacher and the Title 1 program recognizes that – and Title 1 – when it is provided as an additional resource (and not used to supplant existing resources) is a proven approach with a recognized success record.

            We pay money for high school sports, guitar and photo-journalism and all kinds of college prep while Europe and Asia concentrate on core academic fundamentals. Their kids are not widgets either – but their kids outscore even our college-bound kids.. Our kids run away from math and hard science and in Europe/Asia even the kids not bound for college have to master those things – because in this day and time – it’s NOT STEM – but it IS the ability to read and understand, articulate problems and synthesize solutions.. no matter the occupation. It’s a 21st century world and the American education system is mired in the 20th century.

            then when you bring folks like ALEC into the mix – their agenda is not improving our system – it’s basically abandoning public education.

          4. re: ” I would vote to pay more in taxes and spend more on education if I thought it would do any good. ”

            I would too – but I also have no faith that the money would go to deal with the problem of low-income neighborhood schools but instead would be used to increase more offerings to the kids of the college-educated…

            That’s all I ever hear down our way when educators are asking for more money.

            It’s always about offering expanding foreign languages or swimming or astro turf – or coach stipends and never about the schools that have the low academic scores or accreditation issues.

            It’s never about buying more Title 1 teachers for the schools with economically disadvantaged ….

            Schools today do not want the public messing with their business.

            that’s the bottom line.

            “public involvement” is deemed a threat. FOIAs are repulsed with high costs .. for your own county -go find out what they actually spend the local discretionary money on (the money that is over and above what the State SOQs require).

            This, in turn frustrates many who basically end up believing what DonR does – that more money won’t change overall academic performance much less economically disadvantaged – and if my view, when the public feels shut out – they will then lean towards tea party politics and organizations like ALEC to break the “stranglehold”.

            Our public schools are their own worst enemies these days.

            they really don’t want the public involved.. they feel a strong need to “manage” public involvement rather than truly listen to the concerns.

            That makes ALECs job easy. There are fewer and fewer defenders of the public schools current way of doing business – and maybe in the bigger scheme of things – a tear-down is all that can really happen before we can move forward.

            it will be a long dance – because ALEC does not have answers either… the public will have to see that things can get much, much worse before they might appreciate what we have right now – which is seriously flawed and needs reform but is better than the ALEC and typical conservative paths…

            and if we are not careful – we’re going to end up with a bifurcated system like we had prior to the civil rights era …

            Are we REALLY going to pay taxes that will then be given to parents to buy private schools for their kids?

    2. re:

      ” And of course saying we spend more on education spending than anywhere else is a meaningless comparison when you leave out that:

      – All the European countries that beat our metrics have much more generous social welfare programs.
      – All the Asian and European countries that beat our metrics have some sort of universal healthcare.”

      I’m not sure as I see these things being involved the same way you do.

      “The problem with the policy debate in this country right now is that people want to treat the process of education as something distinct from the well being of the child, as if the two could possibly be divorced. The problem with a capitalist framework is that you begin to view everything as a commodity to be tweaked, as if the problem with education has to do with not finding the proper assembly line process with the proper worker incentives.”

      maybe. but we DO provide free/reduced lunches (and breakfasts) AND we provide health care to the kids with Medicaid and SCHIPS.

      I don’t see any of this as a commodity or a widget – but any/all programs are by definition “defined” as to what they do for each child or not.

      “Charter schools do not outperform their public school counterparts. Merit pay doesn’t go anywhere cheating scandals don’t follow. And that second part makes sense. Kids aren’t a raw material you can run through some pedagogical Bessemer process to oxidize away impurities. But what you can do is erase wrong answers. Merit pay is a waste of money on four fronts:

      1) The initial cost of providing services not rendered.
      2) Paying out for falsified results.
      3) Paying to verify that fraud took place.
      4) Paying to fire and re-staff.”

      would you say this about any occupation?

      “To say nothing of the time those kids wasted on a sub-par learning experience.”

      I’m not a supporter that the current system has a magical special sauce that cannot be messed with. It is broke in places. If it was not broke and performed competitively with Europe and Asia – we would not have people messing in their business to start with.

      “This country’s public education system put men on the moon without charter schools and merit pay, but we need them now to produce the next generation of cell phone app developers? Okay.”

      With the exception of health care – where else do we not compete with Europe/Asia when it comes to education.. resources..??

      1. LifeOnTheFallLine Avatar
        LifeOnTheFallLine

        “but we DO provide free/reduced lunches (and breakfasts)”

        During the school year, sure, but what happens during the summer, which is the period of time where disadvantaged children lose the most ground compared to their comfortable peers.

        ” AND we provide health care to the kids with Medicaid and SCHIPS.”

        After you fill out this paperwork and that and you’re not on the bubble and just barely don’t qualify and then find a doctor who accepts Medicaid and they can see your child within a reasonable amount of time. Not quite the same as universal health care.

        “I don’t see any of this as a commodity or a widget – but any/all programs are by definition ‘defined’ as to what they do for each child or not.”

        So how do you do this? You can’t separate learning from a child’s brain. You can’t separate a child’s brain from their body. You can’t separate a child’s body from their environment. So how do you measure the value a single teacher adds? If they get a classroom full of kids in September that hasn’t had proper nutrition since June and that knocks test scores down how do you rate the teacher? How do you rate the efficacy of someone trying to teach pre-algebra to a kid who just saw her cousin get shot? How do you calculate the value of a teacher trying to reach a group of kids who have never had a proper night’s rest?

        “would you say this about any occupation?”

        No, because other occupations put in labor and produce something tangible. You can put in Y amount of work and produce X amount of seat belts. I can hang dry wall for A hours and get B percentage of a house done. There are so many variables that effect a child’s ability to learn that are outside of a teacher’s ability to teach.

        “If it was not broke and performed competitively with Europe and Asia”

        But that’s the thing, our system DOES perform competitively with Europe and Asia as long as you exclude our disadvantaged children. The children who show up to school healthy and fed and without insane levels of cortisol do marvelously. When the poor kids are bused to school’s with richer students they do better. So why does the conversation keep focusing on what educators can do differently? Maybe the front liners aren’t the problem here.

        “With the exception of health care”

        You mean the thing we spend more money on as percent of GDP than any other country? The thing that ranks just after housing, transportation and food on what Americans spend the most money on?

        “where else do we not compete with Europe/Asia when it comes to education.. resources..??”

        Your focus continues to be far too narrow. If you went to a doctor with persistent swelling in the ankles they wouldn’t just give your a fluid pill and send you on your way.

        1. “but we DO provide free/reduced lunches (and breakfasts)”

          During the school year, sure, but what happens during the summer, which is the period of time where disadvantaged children lose the most ground compared to their comfortable peers.

          we are starting to do summer programs – with food.. but I agree…

          ” AND we provide health care to the kids with Medicaid and SCHIPS.”

          After you fill out this paperwork and that and you’re not on the bubble and just barely don’t qualify and then find a doctor who accepts Medicaid and they can see your child within a reasonable amount of time. Not quite the same as universal health care.”

          well, at the schools I’m familiar with the kids get to see the nurse then a doctor or dentists.. not perfect..

          ” “I don’t see any of this as a commodity or a widget – but any/all programs are by definition ‘defined’ as to what they do for each child or not.”

          So how do you do this? You can’t separate learning from a child’s brain. You can’t separate a child’s brain from their body. You can’t separate a child’s body from their environment. So how do you measure the value a single teacher adds? If they get a classroom full of kids in September that hasn’t had proper nutrition since June and that knocks test scores down how do you rate the teacher? ”

          you can (and should) ascess where the kids are with respect to grade level then you go from there… what I’m familiar with is that they can determine to the tenth level – like 2.5 or 1.3… or .9 …

          “How do you rate the efficacy of someone trying to teach pre-algebra to a kid who just saw her cousin get shot? How do you calculate the value of a teacher trying to reach a group of kids who have never had a proper night’s rest?”

          we can’t fix the world…. we have to give it our best shot…but we can’t fix everything that is wrong.

          ” “would you say this about any occupation?”

          No, because other occupations put in labor and produce something tangible. You can put in Y amount of work and produce X amount of seat belts. I can hang dry wall for A hours and get B percentage of a house done. There are so many variables that effect a child’s ability to learn that are outside of a teacher’s ability to teach.”

          you can also measure progress for kids.. and you can determine where their deficits are and focus on those areas.

          ” “If it was not broke and performed competitively with Europe and Asia”

          But that’s the thing, our system DOES perform competitively with Europe and Asia as long as you exclude our disadvantaged children. The children who show up to school healthy and fed and without insane levels of cortisol do marvelously. When the poor kids are bused to school’s with richer students they do better. So why does the conversation keep focusing on what educators can do differently? Maybe the front liners aren’t the problem here. ”

          it could be – but I’m not a proponent that money is the primary issue and it’s politically not going to happen …

          ” “With the exception of health care”

          You mean the thing we spend more money on as percent of GDP than any other country? The thing that ranks just after housing, transportation and food on what Americans spend the most money on? ”

          you don’t have to preach to the choir – but in this country – kids do get Medical care even if their parents don’t… I’m not a person who connects all these issue together and requires more money for global fixes.. it’s politically untenable. We have to move forward on what we get consensus on.

          ” “where else do we not compete with Europe/Asia when it comes to education.. resources..??”

          Your focus continues to be far too narrow. If you went to a doctor with persistent swelling in the ankles they wouldn’t just give your a fluid pill and send you on your way.”

          well the good new is that we’re BOTH classified as Liberals! the bad news is that I’m a fiscal conservative who does believe we cannot fix all problems but the ones we can fix and refuse to – I do find abhorrent.

          I’m not convinced that Europe and Asia have such a monolithic welfare state that – that becomes the reason why they do so well academically.

          I think – on their own – their academics are better.. even without the welfare state.

          we cannot reach 100% of the kids – Europe and Japan do not either – especially their immigrant populations that often end up being a cheap labor pool .

          but I do believe in the essential promise of public education to give every child an opportunity – but I’ m also a pragmatist. Most kids, if you do not “get” to them in the K-3 window are cast adrift. Some make it back to the boat, some do not.

          Every one that does not – we pay taxes to support with entitlements or incarceration.

          1. we move forward on what we can get consensus –

            we fail when we insist that nothing short of a full solution is acceptable.

            I have just as much problem with the folks on the left – as on the right when it comes to “all or nothing, fight to the death” type struggles.

            we too much of that already.. the world is not perfect and never will be… we have to do the best we can – that we can agree on… and if we end up with the left and right extremes not giving an inch to get forward progress – we’re in a heap of trouble.

  9. It also doesn’t seem to register that most of the best education states in the Country have teacher unions – and superior academic results.

    So why do Conservatives continue with the narrative that bad schools come from unions protecting bad teachers and totally ignore the contradictory evidence?

  10. Larry, as you well know, educational achievement among school students is closely correlated with educational achievement of their parents — a point you harp upon relentlessly when parsing Virginia numbers but one that you conveniently overlook when comparing the educational achievement of the 50 states. Massachusetts ranks No. 1 in the country for the percentage of the population with 25+-year-old population with a B.A. degree and No. 1 for post-graduate degrees. It also ranks No. 6 for median income. Given those numbers, Massachusetts would likely have a No. 1 or No. 2 ranking for educational achievement nationally no matter how much money the state spent on schools or how its teachers were organized.

    The high educational achievement says nothing about whether the state could be doing a more effective job of educating by adopting other policies.

    1. ” Larry, as you well know, educational achievement among school students is closely correlated with educational achievement of their parents — a point you harp upon relentlessly when parsing Virginia numbers but one that you conveniently overlook when comparing the educational achievement of the 50 states.”

      Actually what I say is that the kids of college-educated parents are the EASIEST to teach but by no means can we not also successfully teach kids of lesser educated parents.

      ” Massachusetts ranks No. 1 in the country for the percentage of the population with 25+-year-old population with a B.A. degree and No. 1 for post-graduate degrees. It also ranks No. 6 for median income. Given those numbers, Massachusetts would likely have a No. 1 or No. 2 ranking for educational achievement nationally no matter how much money the state spent on schools or how its teachers were organized.”

      but you and ALEC’s premise is that unions protect and keep bad teachers and that’s what leads to bad results. And where exactly do you think those states got their highly educated, higher earning parents from to start with – Louisiana or other right-to-work states?

      “The high educational achievement says nothing about whether the state could be doing a more effective job of educating by adopting other policies”

      Jim – there are a number of other states that do a good job of education that have lesser income levels … including places in Virginia where a large proportion of the school is economically disadvantaged and they still produce good results.

      You and ALEC indict the current system as if it is a total failure and needs reform then instead of real reform you propose cherry-picking rather than actually putting your proposed policies to work in the same framework that existing public schools work.

      If you and ALEC were actually serious about these policies you would propose to take over the entire failing school and serve the entire neighborhood demographic and have the results judged by the the same SOL/NCLB standards.

      you’d make that proposal as a positive approach to reform rather than indicting the current system as if it were a monolithic failure.

      I have no problem what-so-ever with reform and even the use of alternative approaches but this is not the ALEC or Conservative approach which is basically to advocate for policies to undermine and harm public education.

      If you want to ADD TO IT – that’s different than trying to tear it down – on a false premise that it is a failure… it’s not. what is a failure is how we deal with kids of parents who are NOT well educated.. and I see nothing at all from ALEC and Conservatives to fix that….

  11. The ALEC report is worth reading… it does have some useful insights.

    one of them is this:

    FIGURE 9 | PERCENTAGE OF FREE AND REDUCED-PRICE LUNCH ELIGIBLE STUDENTS SCORING “PROFICIENT” OR BETTER ON THE NAEP FOURTH-GRADE MATH EXAM FOR 2013 (page 35 of the PDF).

    New Hampsire 38%
    Indiana 37%
    Minnesota 37%
    Massachusetts 35%

    Virginia – 25%

    This pretty much tells the tale of Virginia – which would score in the top 5 in the country if their performance on teaching the economically disadvantaged was at least equal to the other states – which still leaves behind 60% of those kids.

    Virginia leaves behind 80% of them in some schools and as a result it drags down it’s overall academic rank.

    the bigger question is what ALEC would recommend that Virginia do to bring up these numbers?

    more charter schools? finding and firing “bad” teachers? what?

    and what would Jim Bacon recommend now that ALEC has highlighted the area where Virginia has a problem? Would he continue to blame genes and culture?

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