Acorn to Oak: “Free” Military Dependent Tuition

From a recent House committee presentation on the Virginia Military Survivors and Dependents Education Program. Click for larger view.

By Steve Haner

Virginia’s political leaders are embarked upon another of their occasional efforts to clean up their own mess, in this case scrambling to restore a generous tuition waiver at Virginia’s public universities for family members of certain veterans.

It is being touted as a benefit for Virginia “gold star families” of the fallen. Were it only for them there would be no controversy.

Governor Glenn Youngkin (R) is asking the General Assembly to either use its current special session or come to a new special session to further amend the  budget he signed with great fanfare. Buried in the provisions was language to rein in the cost of the Virginia Military Survivors and Dependents Education Program (VMSDEP.)

The political explosion has been far more violent than many clearly expected, although at the time of the vote on the compromise budget some legislators stood up to complain about the new rules. Legislators are snipping and snarking at each other on social media seeking some partisan edge. Sorry, folks, this is a bipartisan cockup with a long history.

Reading through a recent House Appropriations Committee presentation on the history and growing cost of the “free” tuition program, I was transported back 50 years to Economics 101, and William and Mary’s Allen Sanderson lecturing on the inevitable outcome of government generosity. I still hear him saying, “When government subsidizes something, you get more of it.”

The presentation from the House education analyst Tony Maggio should be enshrined in future textbooks about how these little acorns of gratitude turn into mighty oaks of entitlement. An untold part of the story is how the unforgivable greed of the schools themselves, raising their own tuition and fees, has added to the claimed cost of this mandate to waive them.

In one of Maggio’s slides he reports that the waivers granted to eligible students equate to 15% of the tuition revenue at the Virginia Military Institute, and 12% at Norfolk State University and Old Dominion University. In several other schools it approaches 10%. There has been no special provision within the budget to allocate dollars directly for this program. It is the classic “unfunded mandate.”

Adding some direct funding was one of the revisions in the new budget, and the whole exercise screams for a cost cap, but first we must review the acorn-to-oak history, as related by Maggio.

The program dates back to 1930, when it was limited to 18-25 year-old survivors (children and spouses) of those 100% disabled or killed in World War 1. The deceased or disabled parent had to have entered service from Virginia and the cost of the program was capped at the sum appropriated to support it. Presumably, it stayed the same through World War II and the post war years.

Then after Vietnam it was expanded to cover students with a weaker connection to Virginia. The dead or disabled parent could have been a Virginia citizen earlier in their lives, if not at the time of the war.

Following 9-11 and the conflicts in the Middle East, the cap placed on the program by direct appropriation was removed and it became purely a waiver, putting the burden on the schools. The age of the prospective student was raised to 29 and could be above 29 with extenuating circumstances. Mere presence in the state by the veteran became the test, not state citizenship.

Then the big changes came in 2019 and later. In 2019, the program was offered to dependents with a 90% disability that might have occurred from the armed conflict. In 2022, eligibility was expanded to stepchildren and the domicile requirement was further loosened.

Hey, who ever lost an election by voting to give more benefits to veterans? A recent new state tax subtraction for military retirement pay is another example. Now all the Virginia legislators are cowering at the possible election impact of having voted to rein in the tuition program cost, which almost all did.

By 2023, about 6,400 students were receiving an average benefit in excess of $10,000, with 20% of them not in-state-eligible by the rules. The 2024 cost was projected to reach $85 million for 8,300 recipients. That is about a 500% increase in beneficiaries since 2019.

What did the 2024 General Assembly adopt as changes starting with the next term? They were significant. Maggio spends several slides on them. The residence requirement was tightened, and the waivers could only be used for the student’s first undergraduate degree. A requirement that the student be maintaining their grades, which dates back to 1930, was restored. An effort to coordinate with other benefit or student aid programs such as Pell was instituted, in some cases an open means test.

Just where the General Assembly might land if it does rush back to Richmond to vote again is anybody’s guess. Given the political heat and shortage of light being generated, a return to the status quo is very possible. Rolling back any entitlement is hard, but this one comes wrapped in the flag.

As the son, brother and father of wartime veterans, I yield to no one in my respect for their service and that of others. But reading Maggio’s history, this clearly got out of hand, and it makes sense to return to a program closer to the limited original vision, with an appropriation to take the pressure off the schools. Otherwise, it is largely paid for by the other tuition-paying students.

Some edits have been made to the original text to correct errors brought to my attention. 


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52 responses to “Acorn to Oak: “Free” Military Dependent Tuition”

  1. MyMOSisMOM Avatar
    MyMOSisMOM

    The political explosion you speak of began because of the method used to deplete this benefit. Slipping it into a 650+ page budget package without an impact study, without notification to current users and those about to use it in the fall, and would we believe legislators- without the awareness of the vast majority of legislators who signed the bill at the very moment High School seniors were committing to institutions was a recipe for an explosion of epic proportions.

    The fix? "Here's a grandfather clause, everyone who enrolls in the next two days is fine, everything's fine, we're all fine." Except of course, for many families nothing was fine. Instead, they were left hanging because this didn't get media attention until after the deadline passed. They couldn't enroll because they were awaiting confirmation from schools. They couldn't enroll because they were heading off to community college and somehow everyone forgot that community colleges don't have an enrollment procedure. They couldn't enroll at the schools they actually wanted to attend because 2024 is the year of the FAFSA FUBAR and wait-list movement has been heavily impacted. These are the same families who passed on scholarship competitions because why take funds from some other kid if you have a tuition waiver, and they'll never get those funds back. Even today, as in two hours ago, Virginia universities can not confirm for students who believed they might be grandfathered in, if they have the benefit or not. Their stock answer is, "We don't know, no one knows, we're waiting for someone, but we don't really know who, to tell us something".

    Discussing sensible management and potential cuts to the program wouldn't have netted the furor that's ensued. Doing it in an irresponsible and haphazard manner that's actually harmed veterans and Gold Star families has driven this collective outrage.

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Friend, it is entirely possible that somebody like Maggio and one or two college lobbyists were the only one's in the know. This schist happens all the time with conference reports, these last minute surprises. But not knowing I cannot accuse Tony and I also know the politicians LOVE to feign ignorance and dump blame on the staff. At the GA we call this….business as usual.

      1. MyMOSisMOM Avatar
        MyMOSisMOM

        The irony is, it's the very secretive and sneaky manner that this legislation was inserted (I presume to avoid the kind of fall-out that's ensued) that's driven the response by so many impacted families. This is heading back to special session, and not because everyone wants to cancel their summer vacations. They're doing it because the harm caused has been so grievous that it's amplified the voices of the Veteran and Gold Star families affected. It's become a political nightmare for both parties (as you suggested, they both own their share of the blame here.) Had this been handled in a more straight-forward and transparent manner with a more well constructed "grandfather clause", this would have been a day or two in the news cycle and done.

  2. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Looks lik Haner got into that proverbial briar patch…

    "The moral of the Brer Rabbit and The Briar Patch story explains that an evil plan never succeeds. It also explains how intelligence is mightier than evil in any circumstances."

  3. One main problem is that Maggio doesn't share how he got the numbers he is using. He, in fact, admitted that the program change was hidden in the budget because he knew it wouldn't be approved as a stand alone bill/law.

    The legislators and task force needs to require the transparency of the data used to make these statements. Several people have told me different stories were given to different people about the same numbers……

    1. How are the projections of future enrollment being made?
    2. How many students at these institutions are worthy of this program — at VT it's estimated [because no one is actually sure] at about 400, out of 38,000.
    3. How accurate have past future growth estimates matched actual growth?

    No one is asking these MAJOR questions.

    The colleges are complaining about an increase in the cost.
    How does adding a few students to a course already on the books, being held in classrooms already built, by professors already being paid to teach 'increase costs'?

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      With a program of about 1,000 beneficiaries, the argument that the net marginal cost of filling a seat here or there is low makes sense. When it gets to 8,000 beneficiaries, that falls apart. As to the accuracy of the data, I have some familiarity with and confidence in SCHEV, if that is where they came from.

      But thank you for adding to my evidence of how these things become deadly political third rails! The complaint this was all too far under the radar has great merit. When it came up in floor debate, I didn't know what they were talking about, and I was ON SCHEV once.

      1. My understanding is that SCHEV, nor the legislators, nor their staffers have talked to the VMSDEP officials in some years — another question to ask…if only reporters were inquisitive.

        8,000 out of how many students at our state schools– roughly 360,000 [https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/rank/public-colleges/largest-enrollment/state/virginia/]?

  4. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    Been a while since I touched a nerve like this and I appreciate all who have taken time to educate me, in the comments and also offline. I still think this is a classic acorn to oak example, and I still think returning to the more limited focus — dependents of war-related deaths and disabilities and some Virginia residency time — makes sense. I think all who have read this far see what passion the Assembly is dealing with. It can't be long until somebody asks about police or fire killed in the line of duty and do their dependents deserve the same. Hard to say they don't.

    The politicking and finger pointing on this is shameless when it is the legislators jobs to know what the heck they are voting on.

  5. LesGabriel Avatar
    LesGabriel

    The same sort of acorn to giant uncontrollable program can be made about almost every government program. It is the incremental adding of benefits and loosening of eligibility requirements that turn them from a solution to a specific problem to a threat to long-term budget sustainability. If the Social Security program would have stuck to its original goals, growing only to account for inflation, it would not be facing its imminent bankruptcy.

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Exactamundo. Were you in Sanderson's class? 🙂

      1. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        The equivalent to Sanderson at UVa was Ken Elzinga. I heard the same ideas from Mr. Elzinga.

    2. walter smith Avatar
      walter smith

      Can you say "Social Security?" "Medicare?" Sure, sure you can… (cuing the National Lampoon parody of Mr. Rogers…)

    3. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      Social Security is actually THE MODEL for a self-funded program that does not need or get taxpayer subsidies!

      And it's NOT going "bankrupt" at all.. Even in a worst-case scenario, it pays about 75% of intended benefits to the folks that pay into it.

      It's "problem" is not overspending or expanded benefits, but simple demographics that also apply to private sector annuities – life expectancy. We live longer than we did when SS was created. Private sector annuities, including both private sector and govt pensions, have the same issue.

      1. DJRippert Avatar
        DJRippert

        There you go again.

        If you deposit $100,000 in a bank and then the bank has financial issues and can only give you $75,000 of the money it owes you … guess what? The bank is bankrupt. Maybe not insolvent, but definitely bankrupt.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          DJ – do you understand how annuities work?

          It's an insurance annuity.

          The formal name is:
          OASDI and stands for Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability Insurance

          nothing in there about pension or what they "owe" you.

          The only problem with SS is the same problem that Ronald Reagan addressed when it was "fixed" in terms of FICA tax and did not adjust year to year as demographics changed, i.e. people started living long and longer.

          That's all that is needed to fix SS – bring it up to date with life expectancy.

          It uses not one penny of income tax. It's totally self-funded,

          It has zero impact on the budget or deficit .. except for the agencies that borrowed from it's trust fund and need to pay it back. That Trust Fund was created 100% from FICA tax , not income tax.

          You can pay 100K into SS and collect 400K+. You can't outlive your benefits. They pay as long as you live even if disabled and unable to work, AND THEN pay your survivors for life also.

          Trying finding a private sector annuity that works that way.

    4. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      If after the 1983 Greenspan Social Security Commission revisions Social Security had maintained FICA taxes to cover 90% of earned income instead of giving the rich a tax break and allowing the cap to decline to 82-83% currently Social Security would be fully funded for the long term.

      The issue is not change in SS goals, it is failure to implement the fix that was put in place 40 years ago by Reagan.

      https://www.cbo.gov/budget-
      <i>"When payroll taxes for Social Security were first collected in 1937, about 92 percent of earnings from jobs covered by the program were below the maximum taxable amount. During most of the program's history, the maximum was increased only periodically, so the percentage varied greatly. It fell to a low of 71 percent in 1965 and by 1977 had risen to 85 percent. Amendments to the Social Security Act in 1977 boosted the amount of covered taxable earnings, which reached 90 percent in 1983. Those amendments also specified that the taxable maximum be adjusted, or indexed, annually to match the growth in average wages. Despite those changes, <b>the percentage of earnings that is taxable has slipped in the past decade because earnings for the highest-paid workers have grown faster than average earnings.</b> Thus, in 2016, about 83 percent of earnings from employment covered by Social Security fell below the maximum taxable amount."</i>

    5. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      If after the 1983 Greenspan Social Security Commission revisions Social Security had maintained FICA taxes to cover 90% of earned income instead of giving the rich a tax break and allowing the cap to decline to 82-83% currently Social Security would be fully funded for the long term.

      The issue is not change in SS goals, it is failure to implement the fix that was put in place 40 years ago by Reagan.

      https://www.cbo.gov/budget-
      <i>"When payroll taxes for Social Security were first collected in 1937, about 92 percent of earnings from jobs covered by the program were below the maximum taxable amount. During most of the program's history, the maximum was increased only periodically, so the percentage varied greatly. It fell to a low of 71 percent in 1965 and by 1977 had risen to 85 percent. Amendments to the Social Security Act in 1977 boosted the amount of covered taxable earnings, which reached 90 percent in 1983. Those amendments also specified that the taxable maximum be adjusted, or indexed, annually to match the growth in average wages. Despite those changes, <b>the percentage of earnings that is taxable has slipped in the past decade because earnings for the highest-paid workers have grown faster than average earnings.</b> Thus, in 2016, about 83 percent of earnings from employment covered by Social Security fell below the maximum taxable amount."</i>

    6. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      If after the 1983 Greenspan Social Security Commission revisions Social Security had maintained FICA taxes to cover 90% of earned income instead of giving the rich a tax break and allowing the cap to decline to 82-83% currently Social Security would be fully funded for the long term.

      The issue is not change in SS goals, it is failure to implement the fix that was put in place 40 years ago by Reagan.

      https://www.cbo.gov/budget-
      <i>"When payroll taxes for Social Security were first collected in 1937, about 92 percent of earnings from jobs covered by the program were below the maximum taxable amount. During most of the program's history, the maximum was increased only periodically, so the percentage varied greatly. It fell to a low of 71 percent in 1965 and by 1977 had risen to 85 percent. Amendments to the Social Security Act in 1977 boosted the amount of covered taxable earnings, which reached 90 percent in 1983. Those amendments also specified that the taxable maximum be adjusted, or indexed, annually to match the growth in average wages. Despite those changes, <b>the percentage of earnings that is taxable has slipped in the past decade because earnings for the highest-paid workers have grown faster than average earnings.</b> Thus, in 2016, about 83 percent of earnings from employment covered by Social Security fell below the maximum taxable amount."</i>

  6. Rebecca Costa Avatar
    Rebecca Costa

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7ebee32c584cd924c51dbbcedbf90a97ab4cc47a1376dafed9f74d05ed5bb1aa.png
    Tuition revenue has increased to compensate for declining state funding.

    • Mandatory Non-E&G Fees account for at least 1/3 of overall tuition cost. These are used to fund non-academic functions.

    • There have been two primary drivers of this fee growth: athletics and student amenities. Athletics according to audit commission does not cover itself. In fact with their data it only brought in an average of 30% of what it costs to support athletics.

    • The bottom line is schools have been fiscally irresponsible in spending. They are passing the buck onto students for costs that have nothing to do with their education but rather to fund mostly sports and sports facilities.

    • At this juncture, they decided to use VMSDEP as their scapegoat to deflect from the real issues at hand with rising tuition. Cutting our program will do absolutely NOTHING to fix their financial problems and has absolutely nothing to do with their financial problems. They will continue to kick that can down the road.

    • This being said since the schools are not being reimbursed in dollar for dollar amounts for our attendance, they don’t want us! They don’t want to come right out and say that of course as it would hurt their business. They still want title 38 moneys (GI bill) from veterans. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cef3f78ba0f301afea2d91dffd2d22ac0433f1235a8c11709eb21d0172c9e74b.png
    To think VMSDEP which is WAIVED tuition and fees could actually truly in any significant amount contribute to the rising costs of education is simply false. Please do not buy into or perpetuate this narrative based on the skewed data that accompanies it.

    Sources:
    https://jlarc.virginia.gov/
    https://www.schev.edu/resea

    1. StarboardLift Avatar
      StarboardLift

      Using these figures 8000 X $26,484 that's $211,872,000 per year. I agree that there has been no pressure on higher ed to contain costs, but this is a significant number. Also, I believe Virginia state higher ed institutions got an 11% increase in funding from Gen As this year, which is also not nothing.

      1. Rebecca Costa Avatar
        Rebecca Costa

        That is a price tag. Price tag does not equal cost.

        "COST" to educate a student is precisely what they refuse to answer.

        1. Rebecca Costa Avatar
          Rebecca Costa

          Also VMSDEP does not and has never covered Room and Board only tuition and fees so that math is wrong right off the bat and NOONE should be subjected to paying those rediculous noneducation fees.

        2. Rebecca Costa Avatar
          Rebecca Costa

          Also VMSDEP does not and has never covered Room and Board only tuition and fees so that math is wrong right off the bat and NOONE should be subjected to paying those rediculous noneducation fees.

        3. DJRippert Avatar
          DJRippert

          Very astute point. Price <> cost.

          Here's a bold idea – eliminate the costs of all student athletics from college budgets. Let the alumni, who seem to be the biggest supporters of college sports, pay to see the games.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            better yet, get sports beyond intramural completely out of higher ed. No other country in the world has athletics like we do.

  7. Dan Dukes Avatar
    Dan Dukes

    This piece really needs to be fact checked. First of all, the change in 2019 did NOT expand the benefit to spouses and dependents of veterans with any level of disability – and Tony Maggio did not brief that. It also expanded the benefit to ONLY stepchildren claimed as dependent while a Virginia resident for tax purposes of service members who died on active duty – it's important to make that clear, like Maggio did. Going back in history of the program to at least when it was re-titled as VMSDEP the change was to a it was a voucher provided by DVS, effectively a waiver under a different system. And the statement that some cap was removed is simply inaccurate. I encourage BR authors and readers to review the statute and its history https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title23.1/chapter6/section23.1-608/ & https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title23.1/chapter6/section23.1-608.1/.

    Tony Maggio himself an Army veteran and he's known for credible analysis, so I strongly suspect he's only working with data he's been provided. Did he get VMSDEP participation from SCHEV or DVS? There's a difference. Are scary projections based on value, cost or lost revenue? Those appear to be interchangeable or confused in the brief. Do other students actually absorb VMSDEP costs? Maggio didn't include net position data. What are growth projections based upon? The brief and other SCHEV summaries and reports all neglect any mention of the PACT Act or its forecasted saturation.

    So this one missed the mark. Maggio's November tuition cost update, however, didn't. Reading the former alongside the latter — which excludes waivers — strongly suggests it's not VMSDEP that got out of hand – it's something else.

    While I disagree with the one-sided slant of this piece, I'm glad VMSDEP is finally hitting BR. I look forward to BR readers – vocal and lurking – helping out to get to the bottom of these questions.

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      It is certainly possible I misstated something from the powerpoint, but I did link to it so others could see it. As I just wrote to someone offline who is mad at me, all are wide awake now and I expect all the numbers will get a complete examination. Interesting but I guess not surprising how much distrust is on display, but I usually trust Tony.

      1. Dan Dukes Avatar
        Dan Dukes

        Fair enough. No reason to distrust Tony Maggio, but sufficient reason to distrust and/or call out the data he's been supplied. I hope BR continues to be involved to call balls and strikes and make sure all the numbers are examined completely.

  8. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    All the neverending yapping here in BR about govt, transparency, accountability…. then this… geeze..

    SOMEBODY.. DID THIS… who?

    I know the GA members can and do vote for things they're not aware of… "gotta pass the legislation to see what's in it"?

    So who started the ball rolling and got it in the budget and up for a vote? Didn't happen by God's hand…

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      It started as a bill to create a study, put in by Bryce Reeves. But that bill didn't detail any possible changes to the eligibility. Those apparently appeared in budget language out of thin air.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        somebody had to do the inserts, right?

    2. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      It has been said well and famously that politicians only really commit a gaffe when they tell the truth without meaning to.

      Congress "[has] to pass the bill so you can find out what's in it, away from the fog of controversy."

      -Nancy Pelosi

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Pelosi told the truth while being mocked by folks who prefer hiding it? 😉

  9. Heath Dunbar Avatar
    Heath Dunbar

    Mr. Haner,

    There are several inaccuracies in your column that I hope you will take the time to research, if necessary, and to correct in the interest of setting the record straight.

    But first, while it is an economic truism that subsidizing something creates more demand, it is also true that if you fight two wars for 8 and 20 years, you produce more veterans, some of whom are disabled, and sadly, survivors of those who did not return. I haven't seen anyone yet consider THAT source of growth in program demand.

    I certainly hope that Mr. Maggio's presentation isn't used in textbooks, except to illustrate the power of exaggeration by a government official to poison the public debate. The numbers are already in for the 23-24 academic year, yet Mr. Maggio still uses projections, presumably because they tell a more desperate story than reality. (23% more, actually) In fact, he's done the odd turn of telling on himself, as the number of waiver recipients depicted on slide 8 (6344) is higher than his line chart on slide 7, which tops out north of 8,000. Not a great job of covering his tracks. You should have caught that. In fact, if you go to the source document, from DVS or SCHEV, the number is 6334, not 6344, but when we're trying to make a point, who cares about accuracy? https://www.dvs.virginia.go

    The VMSDEP does not and has never approved waivers of tuition for veterans with "any level of service-related disability". In fact, § 23.1-608 of the Virginia Code requires AT LEAST 90% TOTAL and PERMANENT disability for eligibility. And I can assure you from personal experience, the good folks at the VMSDEP office are not shy about returning application documents for insufficient evidence. https://law.lis.virginia.go

    Furthermore, while Mr. Maggio's presentation omits this, the language in the signed budget bill makes the state the last payer not only behind various other forms of financial aid – and these do not come out of the affected family's pocket – but also behind an "expected family contribution (EFC) or its equivalent under FAFSA Simplification as determined by SCHEV". Nobody knows what that means, and every politician I've seen has left it out of their talking points, but it sure looks like an easy button for SCHEV and schools to impose out-of-pocket costs on VMSDEP beneficiaries.

    Speaking of those various forms of aid, one that is explicitly spelled out in HB6001 is "federal aid under 38 USC Part III". That, my friend, is the veteran's Chapter 33 post 9-11 GI Bill benefit – which may or may not have been transferred to the dependent (Senator Webb of our own Commonwealth intended it for GWOT veterans). It also includes Chapter 35 Survivors and Dependents Education Assistance, reserved for 100% disabled, which is one of the few benefits able to be applied to room and board cost rather than tuition. Requiring its application to buy down the cost of a tuition waiver simply uncovers another cost, and hardship, for the VMSDEP recipient family. Mr. Maggio, and politicians who have responded to our queries, assure us that no such thing is anticipated, but there it is in black and white. https://budget.lis.virginia

    You are quite correct that out-of-control costs at Virginia public universities contributed greatly to this problem by inflating the apparent per-student value of each waiver. Perhaps some time spent determining the actual cost of educating a student rather than the amount which the institution wishes to charge would be more productive. I'm afraid that JLARC has tried and, so far, been unsuccessful in piercing the veil of secrecy at our various Hogwarts around the state. And please don't forget the legislators who see an opportunity in this to make partisan hay. What proportion of the cost of higher education does the Commonwealth fund relative to other states? Rumor has it that it's quite a bit lower than our neighbors. https://jlarc.virginia.gov/
    VMSDEP recipients and their families – namely Gold Star survivors and severely disabled veterans, are not pawns, and they should not be perceived as bill-payers by either the money-hungry universities or the politicians who prefer to spend money on less respectable but more vote-generating pursuits.

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Ouch. You are correct I badly misstated Tony's information and a 90% disability was still required. That has been changed online, but the error lives in the earlier version. What really changed is the disability didn't need to be clearly conflict-related. You are also correct that the post 9-11 conflicts account for growth, as well. But the big uptick is more recent.

    2. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Ouch. You are correct I badly misstated Tony's information and a 90% disability was still required. That has been changed online, but the error lives in the earlier version. What really changed is the disability didn't need to be clearly conflict-related. You are also correct that the post 9-11 conflicts account for growth, as well. But the big uptick is more recent.

    3. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Ouch. You are correct I badly misstated Tony's information and a 90% disability was still required. That has been changed online, but the error lives in the earlier version. What really changed is the disability didn't need to be clearly conflict-related. You are also correct that the post 9-11 conflicts account for growth, as well. But the big uptick is more recent.

    4. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Ouch. You are correct I badly misstated Tony's information and a 90% disability was still required. That has been changed online, but the error lives in the earlier version. What really changed is the disability didn't need to be clearly conflict-related. You are also correct that the post 9-11 conflicts account for growth, as well. But the big uptick is more recent.

    5. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      "I'm afraid that JLARC has tried and, so far, been unsuccessful in piercing the veil of secrecy at our various Hogwarts around the state."

      It's time for boards at public universities to start firing the CFOs of those universities if the deliberate opacity is not cleared up. If that doesn't work, start firing the presidents of the universities.

  10. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    In taxes this year we saw something we normally don't see and that is on the 1098T – grants more than total tuition and other costs (even room/board which are not eligible for credit). Finding the actual source of the grants is a chore but some did go back to military benefits. Usually when this happens, there not only is no education credit, but the excess is taxable income unless the grantor specifically cites law/reg that it is not.

    For all the hew and cry here over this… no mention at all of the
    Va tax credit for the retired military pension benefits. 10K last year, 20K this year, 30K next year,… not chump change … not refundable but pretty much wipes any Va tax liability the taxpayer has.

    In other words, it appears that most retired military pay no Va income taxes.

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2bba7d6b8bd019ccfc5b442d73bad3721aab8a4f88f3dbc18c8a3a4459eb21d4.png
    I'd think this might make a dent in the budget also.

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Yeah I did mention that, Larry. Not in detail.

  11. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    Been a while since I touched a nerve like this and I appreciate all who have taken time to educate me, in the comments and also offline. I still think this is a classic acorn to oak example, and I still think returning to the more limited focus — dependents of war-related deaths and disabilities and some Virginia residency time — makes sense. I think all who have read this far see what passion the Assembly is dealing with. It can't be long until somebody asks about police or fire killed in the line of duty and do their dependents deserve the same. Hard to say they don't.

    The politicking and finger pointing on this is shameless when it is the legislators jobs to know what the heck they are voting on.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      you are right about good intentions ..then "what about me"?

    2. Dan Dukes Avatar
      Dan Dukes

      Read the actual VMSDEP statutes and history (given your statement it became a waiver after 9/11, may as well start with the 3/19/2001 version titled "Waiver of tuition and required fees for certain students" ) instead of slide decks and perhaps what you think will change. VMSDEP is and has been restricted to deaths and to not just disabilities but permanent disabilities.

      It not only requires Virginia residency, it requires a minimum of five years residency. With respect to whose residency should be considered for eligibility — dependent or veteran — how could it not be the veteran? Anyone contemplating residency requirements for both should first carefully review 38 USC Chapter 35 history, purpose , and text first.

      While SCHEV's intent was to align VMSDEP to financial aid (Title IV) needs-based principles, VMSDEP is a veteran family benefit designed to align with veteran ( 38 CFR ) disability guidelines/criteria. Fundamentally different.

      Once past poor understanding, misconceptions and misdirection about state VMSDEP and Veteran Affairs laws and regulations, then you can start making sense of things.

      The question, which is political question, is should the law distinguish between death during a training flight and during combat air operations? Does the distinction make any difference to the spouse's or child's altered future?

      The other question, also political, is should the law distinguish permanent disabilities resulting from a combat action (firefight, hand-to-hand) and from serving in a designated combat zone (evidenced by combat pay) and being directly exposed to toxic fumes 6-12 months straight? Does the distinction matter to the spouse or child financially (and otherwise) impacted?

      Exercise Tiger, the rehearsal for D-Day, resulted in more casualties than Utah Beach. Should those service members families not have received benefits because Exercise Tiger wasn't a combat event?

      Rhetorical question, of course. But apparently providing those widows and children benefits was just another example of acorn to oak.

      1. Stephen Haner Avatar
        Stephen Haner

        Training accidents during the war were war-related. Of course. Likewise air accidents not related to enemy action. But in times of peace? Hey, if the voters want to pay for all this, fine. But let's be tranparent. How we support these families in general, all benefits, is the first priority.

        1. Dan Dukes Avatar
          Dan Dukes

          Transparency is precisely the issue and the reason veterans and families are up in arms. There was none. Now there will be. On much more than just VMSDEP.

      2. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Interesting discussion. "line of duty" vs not? Do military NOT killed in "line of duty" receive workers comp?

        Also, as far as I can tell, the 30K income tax credit for retired military is without regard to whether the veteran served in combat or combat zone, etc or not AND it includes surviving spouses also I believe.

        RTD , https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/13930b74709cda9b138c1053068eb6161199a8ab3052aa4ce6747ae5083457dc.png
        I thought staff analysis and fiscal impact were done on proposed legislation. Did neither Youngkin nor Reeves have it done? Did the Committee that passed it on for full vote not have an analysis done and hearings? Did they not meet with veteran groups?

        IF none of this was done, how many other pieces of legislation sneak through similarly?

        Seems like if a review is warranted, that they gather up all the veteran benefits in the state if for no other reason that legislators are aware and be less tempted to "double dip" benefits since they are costly and really end up being paid for by other taxpayers.

        1. Dan Dukes Avatar
          Dan Dukes

          Line of duty is correct.

          Retirement is just retirement. The service member collects pension after 20 years.

          VMSDEP is not a veteran benefit. VMSDEP is a benefit for the spouses and dependents of line of duty deaths and disabled veterans. Most of those veterans served only one enlistment period or were serving their first enlistment period.

          https://www.dvs.virginia.gov/veteran-data

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            yes. But what is the RATIONALE for this benefit?

          2. Dan Dukes Avatar
            Dan Dukes

            Glad you asked. There are thousands of families that would share their stories to help explain, but I suspect you are more interested in what has been established by statute and implementing policies.

            While "make Virginia the most veteran-friendly state in the nation" sounds like a soundbite used by politicians, it's actually a prescribed goal per Va Code § 2.2-2004.17 , which establishes the Compact with Virginia Veterans. From there, well – a lot, considering rationale history for the benefit stretching back to WWII but current implementation and supporting rationale is maybe best explained here .

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Actually in simple concept at the retail level for average citizens to understand. The other thing I might advocate is that we pull all these programs together in one place so we see the width and scope, budget impacts, and possible redundancies and opportunities for better cost-effectiveness.

            Don’t get me wrong. I totally support the idea of properly compensating and treating anyone who takes a job to benefit our National Defense/Security but then when I start thinking about all the pieces and parts, it sorta blows me away with respect to all the “if” “and” and “buts”! so then I go back and ask for
            a definitive statement of concept so what we do actually does match what we said we should do.
            We do a LOT for veterans and they do deserve it IMO AND it means all of us will help pay for it – in additional taxes to cover the costs.

            Excellent discussion – the kind we used to see in BR when it focused on things not so partisan or culture warish..

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