A Terrifying Plan to Get Virginia to Zero Carbon by 2050

Where Virginia’s energy will come from in Bill Shobe’s 2050 zero-carbon future. Click for larger image.

by James A. Bacon

Bill Shobe, a professor of public policy at the University of Virginia, has outlined an approach to decarbonize Virginia’s economy — not just its electric grid, but the entire economy — by 2050. The scenarios and policies described in “Decarbonizing Virginia’s Economy: Pathways to 2050” may sound “out there” right now, but they seem fully consistent with what I’m hearing elsewhere in the environmental movement. There is so much momentum for a zero-carbon future that the document can be viewed as a roadmap of issues that Virginia environmentalists will be pushing over the next three decades.

The first priority is carrying out the decarbonization of the electric power industry, which accounts for approximately 30% of all of Virginia’s greenhouse gas emissions. As this has already been mandated by the Virginia Clean Economy Act, there’s little new in this particular aspect of the study. Virginia will have loads more wind, loads more solar. There is only one surprise. Shobe does not appear to labor under the illusion that Virginia can maintain grid stability through energy storage alone. He sees a continued role for nuclear energy to provide baseload power when a large majority of power production comes from intermittent wind and solar.

Next on the agenda will be wringing out CO2 emissions from the transportation sector through “electrification” — converting all vehicles to electric power. Virginia is just beginning to come to grips with that long-term goal as it debates electric-powered school buses and, more consequentially, the Transportation and Climate Initiative. Shobe’s timeline says to “electrify everything (almost)” by the 2030s. By the 2040s, Virginia will have completed electrification of transport and buildings as well.

Perhaps most controversial from a Greenie perspective is Shobe’s suggestion that Virginia will continue to need nuclear power. “Solar, offshore wind and existing nuclear are the foundation,” he says. Indeed, three of his four scenarios envision a doubling of nuclear-power generation. Dominion Energy’s bid to relicense its existing nuclear power licenses is controversial in the environmental community. The notion of building new nuclear capacity — the cost has been estimated to run as high as $20 billion — is an idea that only Dominion could love.

There is a wave-the-magic-technology wand element to Shobe’s analysis. In particular he expects “hydrogen” fuel to become economically practicable. Hydrogen fuel is another term for fuel cells, which extract the power generated by the combination of oxygen and hydrogen, creating water vapor as a byproduct. Maybe fuel-cell and battery technology will become commercially feasible in time to reach the 2050 goals, maybe they won’t.

I have no objections to creating a zero-carbon energy future. Over a long-enough time span, humanity will consume most of its fossil fuels and there will come a point at which we will have no choice but to rely upon nuclear and/or renewables. My concern is the accelerated timetable for getting to that future. What will the cost be? How reliable will the energy system be? And how vulnerable will our society be to catastrophic failure?

Solar is indubitably the least expensive power source today. More solar is good… to a point. That point is about 30% of the power on the electric grid. As utilities invest more in “smart grid” capabilities that allow for more flexibility in the flow of electricity throughout transmission lines and distribution lines, that percentage will increase. The real concern isn’t handling daily fluctuations in power generation and demand, though, it’s building an electric grid that can withstand rare but extreme weather events that simultaneously spike demand and cripple output for as much as a week at a time. Building resilience into the grid is all the more imperative as the entire economy goes fully electric.

The closer we get to 100% electrification, the more vulnerable we will become to catastrophic, systemwide collapse should the grid fail. The only way to avert the total economic and social breakdown is to build a lot more redundancy into the system. Our backups will need backups — and that includes protections against cyber-sabotage, terrorism and solar electro-magnetic storms. Massive redundancy will be massively expensive — a reality that rosy zero-carbon scenarios do not take into account. The notion that we can get to zero carbon by 2050 without taking potentially catastrophic risks is a pipe dream — a very dangerous pipe dream.

If Shobe wants to lay out pathways and strategies for reaching a zero-carbon society, I’m fine with that. But you’ve got to be very, very careful with a something as complex as the energy system. You must proceed cautiously, allow time for hoped-for technologies to commercialize, collect real-world feedback, make adjustments, and continually re-evaluate. The idea of giving politicians the power to monkey around with that complex system and enforce arbitrary timelines for the total restructuring of our energy economy should terrify every thinking person.


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150 responses to “A Terrifying Plan to Get Virginia to Zero Carbon by 2050”

  1. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    As I will argue in a piece you may see tomorrow (not here first, in a newspaper first), it is time to face this head on and make the voters understand just what they have agreed to by electing the current Virginia leadership. The “end of the world as we know it” myth is absolutely central to today’s Democrats. And if they get their way, it will be the end of our comfortable life as we know it. For no real reason.

    1. It’s interesting that Larry continually accuses anyone who thinks there’s danger when politicians create arbitrary mandates to fundamentally change our entire power generation and energy sector as being the alarmists.

      We’re the alarmists?

      John Kerry says Earth has 9 years to avert the worst consequences of climate crisis: “There’s no faking it on this one”

      https://www.cbsnews.com/news/climate-change-9-years-john-kerry/

      1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
        Bill O’Keefe

        If Larry would take the time to do a little research he would see that Kerry’s 9 year prediction is just one in a long list of apocalyptic predictions that have turned out to be wrong.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          Is Kerry a scientist? geeze…. That’s as bad as “smart guy” bloggers, no?

  2. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    As I will argue in a piece you may see tomorrow (not here first, in a newspaper first), it is time to face this head on and make the voters understand just what they have agreed to by electing the current Virginia leadership. The “end of the world as we know it” myth is absolutely central to today’s Democrats. And if they get their way, it will be the end of our comfortable life as we know it. For no real reason.

    1. It’s interesting that Larry continually accuses anyone who thinks there’s danger when politicians create arbitrary mandates to fundamentally change our entire power generation and energy sector as being the alarmists.

      We’re the alarmists?

      John Kerry says Earth has 9 years to avert the worst consequences of climate crisis: “There’s no faking it on this one”

      https://www.cbsnews.com/news/climate-change-9-years-john-kerry/

      1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
        Bill O’Keefe

        If Larry would take the time to do a little research he would see that Kerry’s 9 year prediction is just one in a long list of apocalyptic predictions that have turned out to be wrong.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          Is Kerry a scientist? geeze…. That’s as bad as “smart guy” bloggers, no?

  3. LarrytheG Avatar

    So the basic premise from the “Sky if falling” crowd is that the average voter is dumb as a stump and before they know it they will be forced to live in caves or some such.

    Forget the fact that they do take polls and a solid majority of people actually DO BELIEVE the science (novel concept for the critics) AND they favor taking direct and immediate actions.

    It’s totally true , despite the cataclysmic boogeyman predictions that they actually won’t agree to live in caves but maybe do more than the critics think – LIKE THEY have for other environmental changes like shutting down coal plants and buying more efficient cars.

    What the “sky is falling, run for the hills” crowd actually FAILS to realize is that they are a MINORITY … a vocal one… for sure .. but most folks do believe there is climate change, that humans are causing it, and we need to act.

    We set “goals” and we try to achieve them. It’s not an ironclad thing where we turn off people’s electricity or take their cars if we don’t – despite the apocalyptic recriminations of the “sky is falling” folks.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      The only thing most polls measure is how well the electorate has absorbed whatever message is being fed to them, mainly through various media. Tell ’em the big SUV is going away and no more propane grill on the back porch, and that starts chipping away…

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Yes, this is the standard Conservative “thinking” that voters are dumb as stumps… and will believe what they are “fed”… right?

        Many folks recycle because they care about the environment. Do you think they have been “fed” a lie?

  4. LarrytheG Avatar

    So the basic premise from the “Sky if falling” crowd is that the average voter is dumb as a stump and before they know it they will be forced to live in caves or some such.

    Forget the fact that they do take polls and a solid majority of people actually DO BELIEVE the science (novel concept for the critics) AND they favor taking direct and immediate actions.

    It’s totally true , despite the cataclysmic boogeyman predictions that they actually won’t agree to live in caves but maybe do more than the critics think – LIKE THEY have for other environmental changes like shutting down coal plants and buying more efficient cars.

    What the “sky is falling, run for the hills” crowd actually FAILS to realize is that they are a MINORITY … a vocal one… for sure .. but most folks do believe there is climate change, that humans are causing it, and we need to act.

    We set “goals” and we try to achieve them. It’s not an ironclad thing where we turn off people’s electricity or take their cars if we don’t – despite the apocalyptic recriminations of the “sky is falling” folks.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      The only thing most polls measure is how well the electorate has absorbed whatever message is being fed to them, mainly through various media. Tell ’em the big SUV is going away and no more propane grill on the back porch, and that starts chipping away…

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Yes, this is the standard Conservative “thinking” that voters are dumb as stumps… and will believe what they are “fed”… right?

        Many folks recycle because they care about the environment. Do you think they have been “fed” a lie?

        1. In many respects yes. Do a little research on plastic recycling.

  5. LarrytheG Avatar

    TBill | February 25, 2021 at 4:38 pm |
    Larry- nobody is arguing against the free market and that new technology may come along to displace the current order. It is the liberals who are arguing for all manner of bans and mandates

    Do you consider folks like BIll Gates a “liberal” ? Have you read his views on this?

    1. Yes, Democrat liberal.
      It sounds to me like he is signaling he is “all-in” on Biden’s green plan.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Tbill – here are the views of Gates:

        Bill Gates says reducing greenhouse gas emissions to zero by 2050 “will be the hardest thing humanity’s ever done”, but could potentially be achieved with the use of nuclear power.

        Key points:
        Bill Gates says nuclear power could be used to fill gaps left by solar and wind energy

        He wants to see countries agree to zero emissions by 2050, even if leaders do not agree on how to get there

        Mr Gates said 30 years should be long enough to transition workers away from industries such as oil and coal

        In an interview with 7.30, the Microsoft co-founder set out his thoughts on how to reach zero emissions in 30 years.

        “This will be the hardest thing humanity’s ever done because the physical economy — cement, steel, transportation, agriculture — all of these sectors will have to make changes,” he said.

        “Only by being focused on innovation and scaling with the right policies on a global basis can we achieve [that].”

        Mr Gates told 7.30 the cost of “going green” globally would be over $5 trillion, unless there is new technology to help.

        Like swapping petrol with electricity to power cars, Mr Gates wants to see other emissions-intensive energy sources replaced.

        He said that as solar and wind were intermittent and not reliable year-round, nuclear power was a practical option.

        “We either need a miracle invention to make batteries that are 20 times cheaper, so you can do that seasonal storage, so when you get a few weeks where [solar and wind] sources aren’t there, you still can keep people warm,” he said.”

        Note that he said there is no way to go to only wind/solar, that nuclear is needed as well as other innovations not yet found.

        He’s clearly admitting we cannot get there on our current path – no equivocation – other things have to happen including nuclear.

        But he is also clearly a ‘liberal’ – but not at all like the broad brush some are painting all liberals, IMHO.

        The bigger question to me is why we have folks painting all liberals as “extremists” in the first place. What’s the point of that?

        It’s sorta it’s own “eco” variant of the so-called “cancel culture” when we just totally reject an entire class of folks by labeling all of them as something they clearly are not.

        Why are we doing this?

        1. Is that the old Bill Gates or the new Bill Gates? The new Bill Gates seems to be supporting hysteria, because he is trying to support the Biden/McCarthy/Kerry scenario. Lots of people are NOT on board with that electric car as savior nonsense. And lots of people not on board with the Doomsday, just because Liberals see that as politically correct is not a rationale for destroying the USA as we know it. Too late maybe though.

  6. Baconator with extra cheese Avatar
    Baconator with extra cheese

    Come on man!
    Green energy pays for itself. It’s much cheaper!
    Damn climate deniers and white supremacists….

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      I’m actually of the view that people are willing to pay MORE if it results in less damage to the environment.

      Many folks KNOW it actually costs money to recycle and reduce damage to the environment. People pay MORE for LED than incandescent BECAUSE they think it is less polluting AND lasts longer – a win-win. People will pay MORE for a hybrid car than a conventional one.

      It’s a question of how much and how many will but the polls show that a solid majority of people believe there is damage to the climate and want to take steps to reduce it even if they won’t agree to the most draconian things advocated by some – the far left AND the far right playing boogeyman!

      Fewer and fewer people are skeptics and deniers…

      So , it’s a question of time as to how much we can do when… and so we set goals – knowing full well that we won’t reach them 100% but NOT having them means we won’t have any structure or path and so most support the goals but not the dystopian boogeyman stuff promoted by the skeptics.

  7. Baconator with extra cheese Avatar
    Baconator with extra cheese

    Come on man!
    Green energy pays for itself. It’s much cheaper!
    Damn climate deniers and white supremacists….

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      I’m actually of the view that people are willing to pay MORE if it results in less damage to the environment.

      Many folks KNOW it actually costs money to recycle and reduce damage to the environment. People pay MORE for LED than incandescent BECAUSE they think it is less polluting AND lasts longer – a win-win. People will pay MORE for a hybrid car than a conventional one.

      It’s a question of how much and how many will but the polls show that a solid majority of people believe there is damage to the climate and want to take steps to reduce it even if they won’t agree to the most draconian things advocated by some – the far left AND the far right playing boogeyman!

      Fewer and fewer people are skeptics and deniers…

      So , it’s a question of time as to how much we can do when… and so we set goals – knowing full well that we won’t reach them 100% but NOT having them means we won’t have any structure or path and so most support the goals but not the dystopian boogeyman stuff promoted by the skeptics.

  8. Yes let’s build more unreliable variable sources of energy. ERCOT officials testified today that their grid was minutes away from total collapse which would require months to bring back online from a cold start. The more wind and solar you bring online the more reliable backup sources you need for peak events. Natural gas can work in the cold. Ever hear of the Midwest, the Northeast and Canada? However gas does require just-in-time delivery. Wind and solar will never be considered just-in-time. Coal and nuclear, with on-site fuel storage, are the most reliable sources followed by gas to maintain the grid in a weather emergency. Hydro does well too for a quick start.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      How would you explain this one which was not due to wind/solar:

      ” Texas Leaders Ignored Warnings A Decade Ago That Their Power Supply Was In Danger

      Almost exactly a decade ago, in February 2011, frigid temperatures caused some of the state’s key power infrastructure, including natural gas wells, to freeze up, cutting off a major source of electricity and heating for Texans.

      Not only did federal regulators identify that the state’s energy system was vulnerable to extreme cold, but even the state’s grid operator and several power suppliers all acknowledged the need for wells, pipelines, and power plants to be better protected from the low temperatures. But it’s clear that didn’t happen.”

      Notice it said Federal Regulators…..

      https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/zahrahirji/texas-power-outage-causes-2011

      or this one (in terms of wind/solar):

      A major outage knocked out power across the eastern United States and parts of Canada on August 14, 2003. Beginning at 4:10 p.m. ET, 21 power plants shut down in just three minutes. Fifty million people were affected, including residents of New York, Cleveland and Detroit, as well as Toronto and Ottawa, Canada. Although power companies were able to resume some service in as little as two hours, power remained off in other places for more than a day. The outage stopped trains and elevators, and disrupted everything from cellular telephone service to operations at hospitals to traffic at airports.”

      https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/blackout-hits-northeast-united-states

  9. Yes let’s build more unreliable variable sources of energy. ERCOT officials testified today that their grid was minutes away from total collapse which would require months to bring back online from a cold start. The more wind and solar you bring online the more reliable backup sources you need for peak events. Natural gas can work in the cold. Ever hear of the Midwest, the Northeast and Canada? However gas does require just-in-time delivery. Wind and solar will never be considered just-in-time. Coal and nuclear, with on-site fuel storage, are the most reliable sources followed by gas to maintain the grid in a weather emergency. Hydro does well too for a quick start.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      How would you explain this one which was not due to wind/solar:

      ” Texas Leaders Ignored Warnings A Decade Ago That Their Power Supply Was In Danger

      Almost exactly a decade ago, in February 2011, frigid temperatures caused some of the state’s key power infrastructure, including natural gas wells, to freeze up, cutting off a major source of electricity and heating for Texans.

      Not only did federal regulators identify that the state’s energy system was vulnerable to extreme cold, but even the state’s grid operator and several power suppliers all acknowledged the need for wells, pipelines, and power plants to be better protected from the low temperatures. But it’s clear that didn’t happen.”

      Notice it said Federal Regulators…..

      https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/zahrahirji/texas-power-outage-causes-2011

      or this one (in terms of wind/solar):

      A major outage knocked out power across the eastern United States and parts of Canada on August 14, 2003. Beginning at 4:10 p.m. ET, 21 power plants shut down in just three minutes. Fifty million people were affected, including residents of New York, Cleveland and Detroit, as well as Toronto and Ottawa, Canada. Although power companies were able to resume some service in as little as two hours, power remained off in other places for more than a day. The outage stopped trains and elevators, and disrupted everything from cellular telephone service to operations at hospitals to traffic at airports.”

      https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/blackout-hits-northeast-united-states

  10. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
    Bill O’Keefe

    Jesse Usabel of Rockefeller University has documented how we have been decarbonizing for over a century without the heavy hand of government leading the way. In recent decades natural gas has been replacing coal and with advances in technology hydrogen may become commercially viable and begin to replace natural gas.
    There is nothing wrong with scenario planning to show pathways to zero emissions as long as there is an understanding that the longer the time frame the more unknowns and unknown unknowns that will affect the plan or plans. The biggest problem is that politicians and elitist environmentalists don’t want to let the system of knowledge creation and application run its course.

  11. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
    Bill O’Keefe

    Jesse Usabel of Rockefeller University has documented how we have been decarbonizing for over a century without the heavy hand of government leading the way. In recent decades natural gas has been replacing coal and with advances in technology hydrogen may become commercially viable and begin to replace natural gas.
    There is nothing wrong with scenario planning to show pathways to zero emissions as long as there is an understanding that the longer the time frame the more unknowns and unknown unknowns that will affect the plan or plans. The biggest problem is that politicians and elitist environmentalists don’t want to let the system of knowledge creation and application run its course.

  12. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    Bill Shobe (whom I happen to know and who has been working in this area a long time) is an economist. He has laid out a carefully documented plan to get to zero carbon by 2050. Repeat, it is a plan and, like all plans, subject to change as its assumptions play out or not. For example, maybe fuel cell technology will develop faster than he assumes. If so, the plan can be modified. Folks on this blog should be pleased that he has not put all his eggs in the solar and wind basket, but is relying on an increase in nuclear capacity and in fuel cell storage. All the other questions that Jim raises are legitimate and will need to be addressed. But, we need to have a plan first so we know where we are going before we can start to address those questions.

  13. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    Bill Shobe (whom I happen to know and who has been working in this area a long time) is an economist. He has laid out a carefully documented plan to get to zero carbon by 2050. Repeat, it is a plan and, like all plans, subject to change as its assumptions play out or not. For example, maybe fuel cell technology will develop faster than he assumes. If so, the plan can be modified. Folks on this blog should be pleased that he has not put all his eggs in the solar and wind basket, but is relying on an increase in nuclear capacity and in fuel cell storage. All the other questions that Jim raises are legitimate and will need to be addressed. But, we need to have a plan first so we know where we are going before we can start to address those questions.

  14. Lawrence Hincker Avatar
    Lawrence Hincker

    Bill Schobe hits it on the head. Solar, wind, geothermal, et al will help decarbonize the atmosphere. The world needs it. But total green generation absolutely cannot be done without some sort of base load generation to provide power when renewable energy can’t. And that will be not only during extreme weather events like we saw in Texas. There will never be enough batteries in the world to provide a well of energy to back up the variability of green renewables. The ONLY source capable is nuclear. An added benefit: the footprint of current and of future micro nuclear facilities will be a fraction of land use demands for solar and wind farms.

    Here’s one other factoid. Analysts predict that if and when all vehicles are electric (personal and commercial), load demand in the U.S. will increase by 25%. Imagine increasing demand on the grid by 25 percent all the while decreasing base load capacity currently provided by coal, oil, and gas.

  15. Lawrence Hincker Avatar
    Lawrence Hincker

    Bill Schobe hits it on the head. Solar, wind, geothermal, et al will help decarbonize the atmosphere. The world needs it. But total green generation absolutely cannot be done without some sort of base load generation to provide power when renewable energy can’t. And that will be not only during extreme weather events like we saw in Texas. There will never be enough batteries in the world to provide a well of energy to back up the variability of green renewables. The ONLY source capable is nuclear. An added benefit: the footprint of current and of future micro nuclear facilities will be a fraction of land use demands for solar and wind farms.

    Here’s one other factoid. Analysts predict that if and when all vehicles are electric (personal and commercial), load demand in the U.S. will increase by 25%. Imagine increasing demand on the grid by 25 percent all the while decreasing base load capacity currently provided by coal, oil, and gas.

  16. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
    Bill O’Keefe

    It would be useful to see a marginal cost curve of reductions down to zero. Plans like this ASSUME that the benefits exceed the costs. Where’s the analysis?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      See that’s an excellent question that we really don’t have enough info on.

      How much will permanent flooding of some parts of Hampton cost?

      Or if we have more mega storms that cost billions/trillions?

      If Texas will continue to get more severe weather, how much will it cost? What is the damage costs of the current freeze damage?

      These are not totally unknown.. Insurance companies have been dramatically raising rates the last few years and flood insurance is currently subsidized by the Govt and in the hole.

      1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
        Bill O’Keefe

        You are a believer in climate model nonsense. There are ways to mitigate flooding independent of the cause as well as some of your other projected calamities. Asserting that the cost of achieving zero emissions is less costly doesn’t make it so.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          Wel…I’m a believer in science and scientific consensus. yes. And I’m not alone by a long shot. It’s you guys that are in the minority.

          1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            There you go again, projecting and assuming. Where is your source that shows that going to zero by 2050 will avoid all of that dread?

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            Because I never said that to start with? We’re already going to get damage we cannot prevent… we know that.

      2. Steve Haner Avatar
        Steve Haner

        None of that silly stuff is believed by serious people. I dismiss you as a serious person for repeating that nonsense, Larry. It is a perfect example of my first point that too many people accept as gospel outrageous claims, intended to frighten fools, the same claims which were made 30 years ago about today and none of which came to pass. Just about, what, half of the Netherlands is already under sea level? How many centuries did that take and it continues to thrive?

        Maintaining a portion of our economy with fossil fuels, continuing to work on their more efficient use, will do absolutely no harm over the centuries. And technology will continue to offer alternatives.

        Obama and Gates have beach houses. Call me when they put panic prices on them.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          Have you check the polls of “believers” of late? Your view is that most people are not “serious”?

          It’s not what one or two science guys said 30 years ago. It’s what a large majority of scientists are saying now and have been for a while and the skeptics reject the science and cite “smart guys” 99% of which have no background in climate science…

          This is like saying that because no scientists have proved dead-on correct about when and where a hurricane will hit that all of them are wrong… . it’s just denial of science.

          1. Steve Haner Avatar
            Steve Haner

            Not scientists. Greta. Show me a reputable study, peer reviewed, that has Hampton Roads underwater in this century. There ain’t one. All the work on the extreme weather shows the patterns are stable or actually going down. And on matters like this, yes, the general public merely knows what it hears — over and over and over.

            Your reliance on polls is a foolish as your blind acceptance of consensus. That isn’t how science works and blowing up consensus is when it works best.

          2. Steve Haner Avatar
            Steve Haner

            Okay, and at what point does that rate (remember, it is millimeters) of SLR put Hampton Roads under the water? Not this century. I don’t see no hockey stick in that graph.

  17. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
    Bill O’Keefe

    It would be useful to see a marginal cost curve of reductions down to zero. Plans like this ASSUME that the benefits exceed the costs. Where’s the analysis?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      See that’s an excellent question that we really don’t have enough info on.

      How much will permanent flooding of some parts of Hampton cost?

      Or if we have more mega storms that cost billions/trillions?

      If Texas will continue to get more severe weather, how much will it cost? What is the damage costs of the current freeze damage?

      These are not totally unknown.. Insurance companies have been dramatically raising rates the last few years and flood insurance is currently subsidized by the Govt and in the hole.

      1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
        Bill O’Keefe

        You are a believer in climate model nonsense. There are ways to mitigate flooding independent of the cause as well as some of your other projected calamities. Asserting that the cost of achieving zero emissions is less costly doesn’t make it so.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          Wel…I’m a believer in science and scientific consensus. yes. And I’m not alone by a long shot. It’s you guys that are in the minority.

          1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            There you go again, projecting and assuming. Where is your source that shows that going to zero by 2050 will avoid all of that dread?

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            Because I never said that to start with? We’re already going to get damage we cannot prevent… we know that.

      2. Steve Haner Avatar
        Steve Haner

        None of that silly stuff is believed by serious people. I dismiss you as a serious person for repeating that nonsense, Larry. It is a perfect example of my first point that too many people accept as gospel outrageous claims, intended to frighten fools, the same claims which were made 30 years ago about today and none of which came to pass. Just about, what, half of the Netherlands is already under sea level? How many centuries did that take and it continues to thrive?

        Maintaining a portion of our economy with fossil fuels, continuing to work on their more efficient use, will do absolutely no harm over the centuries. And technology will continue to offer alternatives.

        Obama and Gates have beach houses. Call me when they put panic prices on them.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          Have you check the polls of “believers” of late? Your view is that most people are not “serious”?

          It’s not what one or two science guys said 30 years ago. It’s what a large majority of scientists are saying now and have been for a while and the skeptics reject the science and cite “smart guys” 99% of which have no background in climate science…

          This is like saying that because no scientists have proved dead-on correct about when and where a hurricane will hit that all of them are wrong… . it’s just denial of science.

          1. Steve Haner Avatar
            Steve Haner

            Not scientists. Greta. Show me a reputable study, peer reviewed, that has Hampton Roads underwater in this century. There ain’t one. All the work on the extreme weather shows the patterns are stable or actually going down. And on matters like this, yes, the general public merely knows what it hears — over and over and over.

            Your reliance on polls is a foolish as your blind acceptance of consensus. That isn’t how science works and blowing up consensus is when it works best.

          2. Steve Haner Avatar
            Steve Haner

            Okay, and at what point does that rate (remember, it is millimeters) of SLR put Hampton Roads under the water? Not this century. I don’t see no hockey stick in that graph.

  18. At this point, US liberals will not tolerate a non-electrified America, or at least the Blue States. Repubs are all-of-the-above, so there is some room for compromise for a little while.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      The U.S. House is five seats away from a flip, the Senate one seat. Speak truth loudly and clearly and more voters will wake up. I think Texans might understand now more than they did two weeks ago. A rational energy policy, with a good amount of renewable, nuclear and some remaining fossil, is a good outcome.

      1. It seems impossible to me for the Northeast to go to 100% electric with all the nat gas to the homes. But the Northeast relies heavily on hydro imports from Canada, so that hydro import is part of what makes northeast liberals (and PNW liberals) feel electrification is duck soup due to much low-cost renewable hydro available to them for import. I don’t know if Canada is in a position to further increase hydro exports.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          We keep assessing the future with the technology we have today. All around the world, science is working on a wide variety of technologies that could change things.

          Who would have thought even 10 years ago that LEDs would replace incandescent and save 75% of energy and last 10 times longer?

          Just one breakthrough could change everything.

          And we’ll continue to work on it until we do get results.

          That’s a whole lot better than just saying it can never happen.

          1. Larry- nobody is arguing against the free market and that new technology may come along to displace the current order. It is the liberals who are arguing for all manner of bans and mandates. For example, I do not see electric cars as a savings for the environment. It may be that, in a few years, H2 FCV is the winner. Liberals want to immediately mandate electric cars and ban H2 FCV…US liberals are always technology backwards to me: they like coal better that nat gas, they see landfills better than waste-to-energy…these are US populist liberal notions, not shared by rest of world, that US liberals want to demand we run our Country their crazy way

  19. At this point, US liberals will not tolerate a non-electrified America, or at least the Blue States. Repubs are all-of-the-above, so there is some room for compromise for a little while.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      The U.S. House is five seats away from a flip, the Senate one seat. Speak truth loudly and clearly and more voters will wake up. I think Texans might understand now more than they did two weeks ago. A rational energy policy, with a good amount of renewable, nuclear and some remaining fossil, is a good outcome.

      1. It seems impossible to me for the Northeast to go to 100% electric with all the nat gas to the homes. But the Northeast relies heavily on hydro imports from Canada, so that hydro import is part of what makes northeast liberals (and PNW liberals) feel electrification is duck soup due to much low-cost renewable hydro available to them for import. I don’t know if Canada is in a position to further increase hydro exports.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          We keep assessing the future with the technology we have today. All around the world, science is working on a wide variety of technologies that could change things.

          Who would have thought even 10 years ago that LEDs would replace incandescent and save 75% of energy and last 10 times longer?

          Just one breakthrough could change everything.

          And we’ll continue to work on it until we do get results.

          That’s a whole lot better than just saying it can never happen.

          1. Larry- nobody is arguing against the free market and that new technology may come along to displace the current order. It is the liberals who are arguing for all manner of bans and mandates. For example, I do not see electric cars as a savings for the environment. It may be that, in a few years, H2 FCV is the winner. Liberals want to immediately mandate electric cars and ban H2 FCV…US liberals are always technology backwards to me: they like coal better that nat gas, they see landfills better than waste-to-energy…these are US populist liberal notions, not shared by rest of world, that US liberals want to demand we run our Country their crazy way

  20. LarrytheG Avatar

    Steve Haner | February 25, 2021 at 2:43 pm |
    Not scientists. Greta. Show me a reputable study, peer reviewed, that has Hampton Roads underwater in this century. There ain’t one.”

    Your regular flood maps show higher levels of flooding than years before and the threat of insurance going away. What happens to properties that getting flooded on high tides and insurance won’t cover any more?

    ” All the work on the extreme weather shows the patterns are stable or actually going down. And on matters like this, yes, the general public merely knows what it hears — over and over and over.”

    have you looked at the last mega hurricanes like Sandy and Houston and the damage they caused?

    “Your reliance on polls is a foolish as your blind acceptance of consensus. That isn’t how science works and blowing up consensus is what it works best.”

    It’s the SAME SCIENCE we use for vaccines, cancer, gene splicing, ALL science in the world. Not blind acceptance – but recognition of what consensus really means – it’s the way science works for everything.

    re: polls – no reliance on polls either – but to blindly ignore them at the same time one denies science is not exactly the mark of recognition of realities either.

    You want a vaccine – you trust the consensus of science on the safety of vaccines or are you also a skeptic anti-vaxer? Why believe in consensus for vaccines?

  21. LarrytheG Avatar

    Steve Haner | February 25, 2021 at 2:43 pm |
    Not scientists. Greta. Show me a reputable study, peer reviewed, that has Hampton Roads underwater in this century. There ain’t one.”

    Your regular flood maps show higher levels of flooding than years before and the threat of insurance going away. What happens to properties that getting flooded on high tides and insurance won’t cover any more?

    ” All the work on the extreme weather shows the patterns are stable or actually going down. And on matters like this, yes, the general public merely knows what it hears — over and over and over.”

    have you looked at the last mega hurricanes like Sandy and Houston and the damage they caused?

    “Your reliance on polls is a foolish as your blind acceptance of consensus. That isn’t how science works and blowing up consensus is what it works best.”

    It’s the SAME SCIENCE we use for vaccines, cancer, gene splicing, ALL science in the world. Not blind acceptance – but recognition of what consensus really means – it’s the way science works for everything.

    re: polls – no reliance on polls either – but to blindly ignore them at the same time one denies science is not exactly the mark of recognition of realities either.

    You want a vaccine – you trust the consensus of science on the safety of vaccines or are you also a skeptic anti-vaxer? Why believe in consensus for vaccines?

  22. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Larry. Steve Haner is paid by the Thomas Jefferson Institute for Public Policy which is funded by such fossil fuel advocates as the Bradley. Foundation, the Koch’s and others. The TJ Institute is
    part of the State Policy Network, a national group
    of climate change deniers.
    Bill O’Keefe is a former top official of the American Petroleum Institute.
    What do you expect them to say?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      Yes…. but somehow they sometimes seem well-intentioned even if misguided.

      😉

      Very selective about what science they “believe” or not – too….

      if coastal flooding is caused by subsistence that scientists say is the cause then it’s believable but if it is caused by global warming, it’s a scam….

    2. Matt Adams Avatar

      So instead of engaging their arguments, you engage in ad hom attacks.

      If that’s the standard any article written about or in regards to the Washington Post your opinion should be disregarded on face value.

    3. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Ad Hominem Peter, right on schedule. Nobody tells me what to think or write about anything. Larry, I have always agreed there is SLR and agreed it is due to the warming and melting of glaciers, etc. It has also been going on, up and down, as long as the oceans have existed…..pretty steady rate at this time.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Peter pointing out your existing affiliations is Ad Hom?

        1. Matt Adams Avatar

          I really honestly wish ya’ll would avail yourselves of the plethora of links you’ve been provided regarding logical fallacies.

          “Peter Galuszka | February 25, 2021 at 3:15 pm | Reply
          Larry. Steve Haner is paid by the Thomas Jefferson Institute for Public Policy which is funded by such fossil fuel advocates as the Bradley. Foundation, the Koch’s and others. The TJ Institute is
          part of the State Policy Network, a national group
          of climate change deniers.
          Bill O’Keefe is a former top official of the American Petroleum Institute.
          What do you expect them to say?

          The bold are instances of attacking the person not their arguments. That is the very definition of ad hom.

          1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            It has been my experience that people who dismiss an argument because of the affiliation of the person making it are either intellectually lazy, don’t have a credible response, or are ideologues. The only way to have a fruitful discussion is to engage; not dismiss.

      2. Peter Galuszka Avatar
        Peter Galuszka

        Haner. It is important to know where people are coming from. You are involved and I have every right to bring it up. The “ad hominem” excuse is getting lame.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar

          You just disparaged him for who he is and not his argument, that’s the very definition of an ad hom.

          Again, you want to taken seriously for comments on Washington Post articles but using your same standard your opinion can be discounted on association alone.

          https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/

  23. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Larry. Steve Haner is paid by the Thomas Jefferson Institute for Public Policy which is funded by such fossil fuel advocates as the Bradley. Foundation, the Koch’s and others. The TJ Institute is
    part of the State Policy Network, a national group
    of climate change deniers.
    Bill O’Keefe is a former top official of the American Petroleum Institute.
    What do you expect them to say?

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Ad Hominem Peter, right on schedule. Nobody tells me what to think or write about anything. Larry, I have always agreed there is SLR and agreed it is due to the warming and melting of glaciers, etc. It has also been going on, up and down, as long as the oceans have existed…..pretty steady rate at this time.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Peter pointing out your existing affiliations is Ad Hom?

        1. Matt Adams Avatar

          I really honestly wish ya’ll would avail yourselves of the plethora of links you’ve been provided regarding logical fallacies.

          “Peter Galuszka | February 25, 2021 at 3:15 pm | Reply
          Larry. Steve Haner is paid by the Thomas Jefferson Institute for Public Policy which is funded by such fossil fuel advocates as the Bradley. Foundation, the Koch’s and others. The TJ Institute is
          part of the State Policy Network, a national group
          of climate change deniers.
          Bill O’Keefe is a former top official of the American Petroleum Institute.
          What do you expect them to say?

          The bold are instances of attacking the person not their arguments. That is the very definition of ad hom.

          1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            It has been my experience that people who dismiss an argument because of the affiliation of the person making it are either intellectually lazy, don’t have a credible response, or are ideologues. The only way to have a fruitful discussion is to engage; not dismiss.

      2. Peter Galuszka Avatar
        Peter Galuszka

        Haner. It is important to know where people are coming from. You are involved and I have every right to bring it up. The “ad hominem” excuse is getting lame.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar

          You just disparaged him for who he is and not his argument, that’s the very definition of an ad hom.

          Again, you want to taken seriously for comments on Washington Post articles but using your same standard your opinion can be discounted on association alone.

          https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/

    2. LarrytheG Avatar

      Yes…. but somehow they sometimes seem well-intentioned even if misguided.

      😉

      Very selective about what science they “believe” or not – too….

      if coastal flooding is caused by subsistence that scientists say is the cause then it’s believable but if it is caused by global warming, it’s a scam….

    3. Matt Adams Avatar

      So instead of engaging their arguments, you engage in ad hom attacks.

      If that’s the standard any article written about or in regards to the Washington Post your opinion should be disregarded on face value.

  24. LarrytheG Avatar

    Nancy_Naive | February 25, 2021 at 3:14 pm |
    https://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/1392/pdf/circ1392.pdf

    is that another one of those “fake” consensus studies by wacakoo scientists?

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      It’s 32 pages, which I’m sure you memorized. A quick scan did not reveal a date when Hampton Roads will be underwater, as you ignorantly predicted. But you found it so you look at the fine print…find me the prediction. 3.8 to 4.4mm/year = 380 to 440 mm per century. Maybe 12-15 inches in a century? I wouldn’t sell my beach house….and that is WITH subsidence, when in other parts of the world the land is rising.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        The RATE of flooding is an ESTIMATE that could be way low…

        Circulation of the Atlantic Ocean falls to weakest level in 1,000 years, say scientists

        https://thehill.com/changing-america/sustainability/climate-change/540573-circulation-of-the-atlantic-ocean-falls-to

        We DO know what happened with Sandy and with Houston and we DO KNOW what King Tides are doing to Hampton.

        There is a lot we do not know – to the point where citing what we think we know to this point is not something you should be taking to the bank to start with.

        The insurance companies know. If FEMA stops their flood insurance program, guess what happens?

        1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
          Bill O’Keefe

          There is so much wrong with your statement that it is hard to know where to start. First, scientists do not know much about sea levels 1000 years ago. They have estimates because the means of measuring were very imprecise. It has only been since the early 90s that accurate mechanisms have been available. Second, Hampton Roads has the documented problem of subsidence from a meteor thousands of years ago added to whatever sea level rise is taking place. Third, Carl Wunsch, one of the world’s leading oceanographers, stated over a decade ago that “sea level has been rising since the last ice age and will continue until the next one.”
          Changing zoning regulations and eliminating subsidized government flood insurance would easily solve the Hampton Road problem.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            Bill – you’re picking and choosing what science you want to believe or not.

            You discount sea level science but then say the science about the meteor thousands of years ago is good. Then you cite ONE scientist views instead what the body of science – many scientists have agreement on.

            Finally, if you take away subsidized flood insurance, what will the private sector insurance companies do ? Isn’t the reason why the govt got involved and subsidized in the first place that the private sector insurance was not interested in insuring or wanted to charge way more than what would be affordable to build and maintain a house in a flood plain to start with?

            And where do the flood maps that FEMA uses come from? Science?

          2. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            Larry, you get five stars for drawing inferences incorrectly and using the word science like a drunk uses a lamppost –for support rather than illumination.
            The subsidence from the meteor has been documented and is not an estimate. I know of no one who disagrees with Wunsch. I don’t discount the science but only point out the lack of precision going back in history.
            Eliminating subsidized flood insurance would slow down and perhaps stop development in areas that should not be developed.

  25. LarrytheG Avatar

    Nancy_Naive | February 25, 2021 at 3:14 pm |
    https://pubs.usgs.gov/circ/1392/pdf/circ1392.pdf

    is that another one of those “fake” consensus studies by wacakoo scientists?

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      It’s 32 pages, which I’m sure you memorized. A quick scan did not reveal a date when Hampton Roads will be underwater, as you ignorantly predicted. But you found it so you look at the fine print…find me the prediction. 3.8 to 4.4mm/year = 380 to 440 mm per century. Maybe 12-15 inches in a century? I wouldn’t sell my beach house….and that is WITH subsidence, when in other parts of the world the land is rising.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        The RATE of flooding is an ESTIMATE that could be way low…

        Circulation of the Atlantic Ocean falls to weakest level in 1,000 years, say scientists

        https://thehill.com/changing-america/sustainability/climate-change/540573-circulation-of-the-atlantic-ocean-falls-to

        We DO know what happened with Sandy and with Houston and we DO KNOW what King Tides are doing to Hampton.

        There is a lot we do not know – to the point where citing what we think we know to this point is not something you should be taking to the bank to start with.

        The insurance companies know. If FEMA stops their flood insurance program, guess what happens?

        1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
          Bill O’Keefe

          There is so much wrong with your statement that it is hard to know where to start. First, scientists do not know much about sea levels 1000 years ago. They have estimates because the means of measuring were very imprecise. It has only been since the early 90s that accurate mechanisms have been available. Second, Hampton Roads has the documented problem of subsidence from a meteor thousands of years ago added to whatever sea level rise is taking place. Third, Carl Wunsch, one of the world’s leading oceanographers, stated over a decade ago that “sea level has been rising since the last ice age and will continue until the next one.”
          Changing zoning regulations and eliminating subsidized government flood insurance would easily solve the Hampton Road problem.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            Bill – you’re picking and choosing what science you want to believe or not.

            You discount sea level science but then say the science about the meteor thousands of years ago is good. Then you cite ONE scientist views instead what the body of science – many scientists have agreement on.

            Finally, if you take away subsidized flood insurance, what will the private sector insurance companies do ? Isn’t the reason why the govt got involved and subsidized in the first place that the private sector insurance was not interested in insuring or wanted to charge way more than what would be affordable to build and maintain a house in a flood plain to start with?

            And where do the flood maps that FEMA uses come from? Science?

          2. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
            Bill O’Keefe

            Larry, you get five stars for drawing inferences incorrectly and using the word science like a drunk uses a lamppost –for support rather than illumination.
            The subsidence from the meteor has been documented and is not an estimate. I know of no one who disagrees with Wunsch. I don’t discount the science but only point out the lack of precision going back in history.
            Eliminating subsidized flood insurance would slow down and perhaps stop development in areas that should not be developed.

  26. David Bither Avatar
    David Bither

    Rare items of agreement in these divisive times are: (1) People want their living and working environments to be free of pollutants as practicable, and (2) Energy costs should be such that all citizens can utilize without undue impact (i.e., reasonable rates). These goals are not new (and certainly not a result of the global warming/climate change campaign) and are likely attainable with an ensemble approach to energy and power production.

    Now and in the near future, renewable sources will play an augmenting role. This is simply because these technologies are still maturing and at present, they are much less efficient and thus costlier than other forms of energy. Additionally, in some instances “green” energy such as electric engines may never be practical such as with long distance trucking and uses on farms and rural transportation.

    Natural gas consumption will likely increase as use of coal fired plants diminishes. As far as the development of highly efficient new sources, hydrogen is showing a lot of promise. And if we are to avoid the knee-jerk reaction to rely too heavily on renewable energy, we must increase the use of nuclear sources.

    It is a mistake to base the argument in favor of “green” energy on mitigating the effects of climate change (the old global warming) simply because it is a theory and cannot be proven with mathematical models. It has nothing to do with science or the scientific method. Only non-scientists believe it is. It is much smarter to realize an ensemble model is the most likely method for achieving both the cleanest and most affordable energy solutions.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      No argument on that from me.

    2. Good attempt at consensus…The first problem I see is Item-1. We have really entered an era of extreme chemophobia (in USA lesser extent Europe) where even clean air is considered highly deadly by liberals. So as long as there is combustion present, millions of Americans are inferred to be getting cancers and other life shortening diseases. So there is no practical level of allowable combustion, or industry, or fossil fuels. Exceptions can be probably made for things liberals feel are needed. But NIMBY is the rule, and we can import manufactured goods.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        So, how many times have we been wrong about “chemicals” in the past?

        Isn’t it a long and wrong record?

        Want me to know the major chemicals we found out after the fact to be much more deadly than when we first approved them?

        Can you tell me how many times we overreacted and later decided a chemical was okay to use after all?

        what’s the ratio?

      2. LarrytheG Avatar

        I have to ask about “liberals”. Can you define who they are? Is it everyone on the left or to the left of Conservatives or is it the far left or what?

    3. LarrytheG Avatar

      There is a lot of what you say that I do not disagree with….but…. mot all! 😉

  27. David Bither Avatar
    David Bither

    Rare items of agreement in these divisive times are: (1) People want their living and working environments to be free of pollutants as practicable, and (2) Energy costs should be such that all citizens can utilize without undue impact (i.e., reasonable rates). These goals are not new (and certainly not a result of the global warming/climate change campaign) and are likely attainable with an ensemble approach to energy and power production.

    Now and in the near future, renewable sources will play an augmenting role. This is simply because these technologies are still maturing and at present, they are much less efficient and thus costlier than other forms of energy. Additionally, in some instances “green” energy such as electric engines may never be practical such as with long distance trucking and uses on farms and rural transportation.

    Natural gas consumption will likely increase as use of coal fired plants diminishes. As far as the development of highly efficient new sources, hydrogen is showing a lot of promise. And if we are to avoid the knee-jerk reaction to rely too heavily on renewable energy, we must increase the use of nuclear sources.

    It is a mistake to base the argument in favor of “green” energy on mitigating the effects of climate change (the old global warming) simply because it is a theory and cannot be proven with mathematical models. It has nothing to do with science or the scientific method. Only non-scientists believe it is. It is much smarter to realize an ensemble model is the most likely method for achieving both the cleanest and most affordable energy solutions.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      No argument on that from me.

    2. Good attempt at consensus…The first problem I see is Item-1. We have really entered an era of extreme chemophobia (in USA lesser extent Europe) where even clean air is considered highly deadly by liberals. So as long as there is combustion present, millions of Americans are inferred to be getting cancers and other life shortening diseases. So there is no practical level of allowable combustion, or industry, or fossil fuels. Exceptions can be probably made for things liberals feel are needed. But NIMBY is the rule, and we can import manufactured goods.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        So, how many times have we been wrong about “chemicals” in the past?

        Isn’t it a long and wrong record?

        Want me to know the major chemicals we found out after the fact to be much more deadly than when we first approved them?

        Can you tell me how many times we overreacted and later decided a chemical was okay to use after all?

        what’s the ratio?

      2. LarrytheG Avatar

        I have to ask about “liberals”. Can you define who they are? Is it everyone on the left or to the left of Conservatives or is it the far left or what?

    3. LarrytheG Avatar

      There is a lot of what you say that I do not disagree with….but…. mot all! 😉

  28. LarrytheG Avatar

    TBill | February 25, 2021 at 4:38 pm |
    Larry- nobody is arguing against the free market and that new technology may come along to displace the current order. It is the liberals who are arguing for all manner of bans and mandates

    Do you consider folks like BIll Gates a “liberal” ? Have you read his views on this?

    1. Yes, Democrat liberal.
      It sounds to me like he is signaling he is “all-in” on Biden’s green plan.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Tbill – here are the views of Gates:

        Bill Gates says reducing greenhouse gas emissions to zero by 2050 “will be the hardest thing humanity’s ever done”, but could potentially be achieved with the use of nuclear power.

        Key points:
        Bill Gates says nuclear power could be used to fill gaps left by solar and wind energy

        He wants to see countries agree to zero emissions by 2050, even if leaders do not agree on how to get there

        Mr Gates said 30 years should be long enough to transition workers away from industries such as oil and coal

        In an interview with 7.30, the Microsoft co-founder set out his thoughts on how to reach zero emissions in 30 years.

        “This will be the hardest thing humanity’s ever done because the physical economy — cement, steel, transportation, agriculture — all of these sectors will have to make changes,” he said.

        “Only by being focused on innovation and scaling with the right policies on a global basis can we achieve [that].”

        Mr Gates told 7.30 the cost of “going green” globally would be over $5 trillion, unless there is new technology to help.

        Like swapping petrol with electricity to power cars, Mr Gates wants to see other emissions-intensive energy sources replaced.

        He said that as solar and wind were intermittent and not reliable year-round, nuclear power was a practical option.

        “We either need a miracle invention to make batteries that are 20 times cheaper, so you can do that seasonal storage, so when you get a few weeks where [solar and wind] sources aren’t there, you still can keep people warm,” he said.”

        Note that he said there is no way to go to only wind/solar, that nuclear is needed as well as other innovations not yet found.

        He’s clearly admitting we cannot get there on our current path – no equivocation – other things have to happen including nuclear.

        But he is also clearly a ‘liberal’ – but not at all like the broad brush some are painting all liberals, IMHO.

        The bigger question to me is why we have folks painting all liberals as “extremists” in the first place. What’s the point of that?

        It’s sorta it’s own “eco” variant of the so-called “cancel culture” when we just totally reject an entire class of folks by labeling all of them as something they clearly are not.

        Why are we doing this?

        1. Is that the old Bill Gates or the new Bill Gates? The new Bill Gates seems to be supporting hysteria, because he is trying to support the Biden/McCarthy/Kerry scenario. Lots of people are NOT on board with that electric car as savior nonsense. And lots of people not on board with the Doomsday, just because Liberals see that as politically correct is not a rationale for destroying the USA as we know it. Too late maybe though.

  29. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/02/25/the-risks-of-communicating-extreme-climate-forecasts/

    That one’s for you, Larry. A couple of Carnegie Mellon profs writing in a major global warming journal about how the stupid and provably false apocalyptic claims have damaged credibility. But you won’t even read it based on the website that picked it up, because it might taint you. Gates is a great example of what they are warning against.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Sure. Of course, I’ll assume that you followed the link in the article, purchased the paper, read it, understood it, and didn’t just take the interpretation of it by a publication with a demonstrated bias.

      Do you get a hard copy of the WaPo?

      But, you’re still denying that the climate is changing, and not for the better, right?

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        ha ha. Yep… paywall for the actual article and surprise, surprise it’s hosted on WhatsUpwiththat!

        And one might wonder why the point of the article really is anyhow? It’s really just more confirmation bias for those that reject the wider science. That’s the essence of whatsupwiththat.

        Take something like the Ozone Holes which turned out to be very real and a threat – early on -but before a consensus was reached, there were all kinds of scientific articles with some saying it was nothing to worry about and others fearing apocalyptic dimensions.

        Over time a consensus did evolve (not everyone) and there was even agreement on what needed to be done.

        That’s the way science in general works – in ALL fields – whether plate tectonics or cancer or ocean currents.

        It makes no sense to go out and cherry pick individual scientists who confirm your own biases while at the same time rejecting the larger body of scientists – consensus.

        All that really proves is that one prefers to believe something other than what the majority of scientists have some consensus on and it really don’t matter a white whether it’s about climate or subsistence or cancer or virus mutations – except that some just reject wide science by searching out individual science they prefer to believe instead.

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          It’s a paper on psychology. It has nothing to do with climate change. The paper could have just as easily looked at the debate over the unsinkability of Titanic. Or icebergs, to give a fair and balance view.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            yes…but for skeptics, it “counts” as a scientific view! It’s inexplicable that skeptics go to such lame extents to justify their skepticism but it is what it is, they even express pride in their skepticism.. that they won’t be “fooled” … even as, at the same time, they actually embrace other science they agree with. But on climate – NADA… and it has spread to what science says / recommends with respect to COVID – everything from skepticism to masks/social distancing, schools, to claiming it’s an outright hoax just like climate change is.

  30. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/02/25/the-risks-of-communicating-extreme-climate-forecasts/

    That one’s for you, Larry. A couple of Carnegie Mellon profs writing in a major global warming journal about how the stupid and provably false apocalyptic claims have damaged credibility. But you won’t even read it based on the website that picked it up, because it might taint you. Gates is a great example of what they are warning against.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Sure. Of course, I’ll assume that you followed the link in the article, purchased the paper, read it, understood it, and didn’t just take the interpretation of it by a publication with a demonstrated bias.

      Do you get a hard copy of the WaPo?

      But, you’re still denying that the climate is changing, and not for the better, right?

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        ha ha. Yep… paywall for the actual article and surprise, surprise it’s hosted on WhatsUpwiththat!

        And one might wonder why the point of the article really is anyhow? It’s really just more confirmation bias for those that reject the wider science. That’s the essence of whatsupwiththat.

        Take something like the Ozone Holes which turned out to be very real and a threat – early on -but before a consensus was reached, there were all kinds of scientific articles with some saying it was nothing to worry about and others fearing apocalyptic dimensions.

        Over time a consensus did evolve (not everyone) and there was even agreement on what needed to be done.

        That’s the way science in general works – in ALL fields – whether plate tectonics or cancer or ocean currents.

        It makes no sense to go out and cherry pick individual scientists who confirm your own biases while at the same time rejecting the larger body of scientists – consensus.

        All that really proves is that one prefers to believe something other than what the majority of scientists have some consensus on and it really don’t matter a white whether it’s about climate or subsistence or cancer or virus mutations – except that some just reject wide science by searching out individual science they prefer to believe instead.

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          It’s a paper on psychology. It has nothing to do with climate change. The paper could have just as easily looked at the debate over the unsinkability of Titanic. Or icebergs, to give a fair and balance view.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            yes…but for skeptics, it “counts” as a scientific view! It’s inexplicable that skeptics go to such lame extents to justify their skepticism but it is what it is, they even express pride in their skepticism.. that they won’t be “fooled” … even as, at the same time, they actually embrace other science they agree with. But on climate – NADA… and it has spread to what science says / recommends with respect to COVID – everything from skepticism to masks/social distancing, schools, to claiming it’s an outright hoax just like climate change is.

  31. LarrytheG Avatar

    Steve – as soon as you way whatsupwiththat , I’m wondering.

    I do read it but I don’t decide based on one guys view. I look at the larger body of science.

    I do not even look at consensus as the truth from on high.

    It’s like predicting a hurricane path except not for days but 50-100 years.

    Can you seriously believe that none of it could ever come to be?

    What is your hedged bet ? You bet the house that it’s all false?

    Would you do that on something like cigarette smoking or other habits that could lead to downstream harm – even if you could never be shown incontrovertible proof of what would happen?

    This totally goes 180 for folks who say they are “conservative” – folks who inherently know we make mistakes in estimating routinely.

    Scientists are WRONG – yes – but when a large number of them are warning something – it’s very UNCONSERVATIVE to just deny it all – never can happen.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        ow ow ow…

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Steve has staked out a highly defensible position, “all models are wrong”. It’s his mantra, and a position held by virtually every scientist on every model of a physical system except for the very simplest. Einstein even cites the difficulties with theory and reality.

          It’s his cudgel. The difference, of course, is he’s certain that they are not only wrong, but that they are wildly wrong all of the time. Whether, or not, they are.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            All models are inaccurate but it’s a mistake to say they are all wrong.

            Models are imperfect because what they often are trying to model is complex with a lot of inputs that vary in the real world.

            I use the hurricane modelling as the example. Not a single one of them are ever dead on 100% correct and some of them are really inaccurate SOME TIMES but if you look at all of them – they point to a truth that says the hurricane does exist and it will hit land somewhere at sometime with some level of wind/tides.

            It’s a warning not an absolute prediction and, more important, they have been wrong the less-harm side. The damage can be much more extensive than forecast.

            https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/153/590x/hurricane-irma-path-update-spaghetti-model-miami-orlando-florida-851555.jpg

            what the skeptics do is ignore the whole picture of all the models and instead focus on one they like better and claim that, essentially, that model disproves the others… and they do this BEFORE the hurricane actually hits… they place their bets on the least harm model claiming the others are “bad science” because they are “wrong”.

          2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Ah, the authority to overrule science… during the Kosovo action, the METOC officer on whatever carrier was there, gave his presentation in which he stated emphatically that all targets would be “socked in” for the foreseeable future and that he recommended scratching the day’s missions.

            The result was a bombing of fish so the planes could land.

  32. LarrytheG Avatar

    Steve – as soon as you way whatsupwiththat , I’m wondering.

    I do read it but I don’t decide based on one guys view. I look at the larger body of science.

    I do not even look at consensus as the truth from on high.

    It’s like predicting a hurricane path except not for days but 50-100 years.

    Can you seriously believe that none of it could ever come to be?

    What is your hedged bet ? You bet the house that it’s all false?

    Would you do that on something like cigarette smoking or other habits that could lead to downstream harm – even if you could never be shown incontrovertible proof of what would happen?

    This totally goes 180 for folks who say they are “conservative” – folks who inherently know we make mistakes in estimating routinely.

    Scientists are WRONG – yes – but when a large number of them are warning something – it’s very UNCONSERVATIVE to just deny it all – never can happen.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        ow ow ow…

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Steve has staked out a highly defensible position, “all models are wrong”. It’s his mantra, and a position held by virtually every scientist on every model of a physical system except for the very simplest. Einstein even cites the difficulties with theory and reality.

          It’s his cudgel. The difference, of course, is he’s certain that they are not only wrong, but that they are wildly wrong all of the time. Whether, or not, they are.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            All models are inaccurate but it’s a mistake to say they are all wrong.

            Models are imperfect because what they often are trying to model is complex with a lot of inputs that vary in the real world.

            I use the hurricane modelling as the example. Not a single one of them are ever dead on 100% correct and some of them are really inaccurate SOME TIMES but if you look at all of them – they point to a truth that says the hurricane does exist and it will hit land somewhere at sometime with some level of wind/tides.

            It’s a warning not an absolute prediction and, more important, they have been wrong the less-harm side. The damage can be much more extensive than forecast.

            https://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/153/590x/hurricane-irma-path-update-spaghetti-model-miami-orlando-florida-851555.jpg

            what the skeptics do is ignore the whole picture of all the models and instead focus on one they like better and claim that, essentially, that model disproves the others… and they do this BEFORE the hurricane actually hits… they place their bets on the least harm model claiming the others are “bad science” because they are “wrong”.

          2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Ah, the authority to overrule science… during the Kosovo action, the METOC officer on whatever carrier was there, gave his presentation in which he stated emphatically that all targets would be “socked in” for the foreseeable future and that he recommended scratching the day’s missions.

            The result was a bombing of fish so the planes could land.

  33. LarrytheG Avatar

    Bill O’Keefe | February 26, 2021 at 7:23 am |
    Larry, you get five stars for drawing inferences incorrectly and using the word science like a drunk uses a lamppost –for support rather than illumination.
    The subsidence from the meteor has been documented and is not an estimate. I know of no one who disagrees with Wunsch. I don’t discount the science but only point out the lack of precision going back in history.
    Eliminating subsidized flood insurance would slow down and perhaps stop development in areas that should not be developed.

    BIll – it has been “documented” by science the very same way other events have been documented. Do you think they have actual data for the meteor anymore than other data thousands of years ago that they use or not for developing an understanding of such events?

    Why would you believe one and not the other?

    1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
      Bill O’Keefe

      It’s known as the variability of estimates!

  34. LarrytheG Avatar

    Bill O’Keefe | February 26, 2021 at 7:23 am |
    Larry, you get five stars for drawing inferences incorrectly and using the word science like a drunk uses a lamppost –for support rather than illumination.
    The subsidence from the meteor has been documented and is not an estimate. I know of no one who disagrees with Wunsch. I don’t discount the science but only point out the lack of precision going back in history.
    Eliminating subsidized flood insurance would slow down and perhaps stop development in areas that should not be developed.

    BIll – it has been “documented” by science the very same way other events have been documented. Do you think they have actual data for the meteor anymore than other data thousands of years ago that they use or not for developing an understanding of such events?

    Why would you believe one and not the other?

    1. Bill O'Keefe Avatar
      Bill O’Keefe

      It’s known as the variability of estimates!

  35. idiocracy Avatar

    I’ll be terrified if I’m still living in this god forsaken Commonwealth in 2050.

  36. idiocracy Avatar

    I’ll be terrified if I’m still living in this god forsaken Commonwealth in 2050.

  37. Atlas Rand Avatar

    So I still run a 1957 International front end loader and backhoe. Several Massey Ferguson’s from the 1970s. My dump truck and rollback are from the 80s, as is my bulldozer. I use multiple homelite bow saws that I can’t replace since you can’t buy them anymore, I find parts and others at auctions and such. I drive vehicles that all date from the last century. I keep these things in good working order. Is the government going to provide me brand new electric ones by 2050? I can’t afford to buy these new. Where do people like me fit into this electric future. I’m young and won’t even be of retirement age by 1950.

    1. 1950? OK but we don’t all have time machines.

    2. Mr. Rand, while I don’t follow the Electric Vehicle topic as closely as others, I really haven’t seen much discussion about the production of electric construction and farming vehicles. I grew up on a farm and during the summer we ran the tractors 12 hours a day doing heavy work pulling the plows. The tractors were left in the fields overnight. The idea that solar panels would ever provide the amount of energy to be used by a D-9 CAT pulling a 100 feet of plow for several days in a row boogles my mind. Alternatively, cows have to be feed during the winter. Will batteries exist to recharge the tractors when you have several days of overcast skies/cloud cover and you are out for eight or so hours feeding the cows? That I will have to see.

  38. Atlas Rand Avatar

    So I still run a 1957 International front end loader and backhoe. Several Massey Ferguson’s from the 1970s. My dump truck and rollback are from the 80s, as is my bulldozer. I use multiple homelite bow saws that I can’t replace since you can’t buy them anymore, I find parts and others at auctions and such. I drive vehicles that all date from the last century. I keep these things in good working order. Is the government going to provide me brand new electric ones by 2050? I can’t afford to buy these new. Where do people like me fit into this electric future. I’m young and won’t even be of retirement age by 1950.

    1. 1950? OK but we don’t all have time machines.

    2. Mr. Rand, while I don’t follow the Electric Vehicle topic as closely as others, I really haven’t seen much discussion about the production of electric construction and farming vehicles. I grew up on a farm and during the summer we ran the tractors 12 hours a day doing heavy work pulling the plows. The tractors were left in the fields overnight. The idea that solar panels would ever provide the amount of energy to be used by a D-9 CAT pulling a 100 feet of plow for several days in a row boogles my mind. Alternatively, cows have to be feed during the winter. Will batteries exist to recharge the tractors when you have several days of overcast skies/cloud cover and you are out for eight or so hours feeding the cows? That I will have to see.

  39. William O'Keefe Avatar
    William O’Keefe

    California is the model of what Virginia’s electricity system will be like in the future. Supporters of the Clean Energy Act probably think that is a good thing. But a study by Next 10 and the Berkley Energy Institute paints a much different picture. California’s electricity prices are among the highest in the continental US. The study points out that this is a disincentive to electrifying homes and purchasing EVs. IN addition, “net metering” shift the utility’s fixed cost to low and middle income people without solar. So, California discounts electricity to low income customers which leaves the burden to the middle income ones. The study has a perverse solution to the problem of regressively and equity. California should make its policies more progressive by increasing taxes to promote its climate goal. In effect, continue to subsidize the rich who buy EVs and install solar panels and then tax them more. Only in California, and soon Virginia, can this be seen as anything other than an Alice in Wonderland reality.

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