Bacon's Rebellion

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A Conservative Fiscal Proposal

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by

Dick Hall-Sizemore
in

by Dick Hall-Sizemore

Governor Youngkin has proposed tax reductions that would reduce state revenue by about $1 billion in this biennium.

I have an alternative proposal on how to use that billion dollars, one that should appeal to the instincts of conservatives on this blog—reduce the Commonwealth’s outstanding debt balance.

The Debt Capacity Advisory Committee has reported that, as of June 30, 2022, the Commonwealth had a balance of $4.0 billion in authorized but unissued tax-supported debt. Using the $1 billion in general fund revenue that Youngkin proposes to forego in the form of tax reductions to supplant bond authorizations for capital projects instead would save the Commonwealth a significant amount in interest payments over the course of the term for which those bonds are now authorized. I do not have all the data needed to project the savings, but it could easily be several hundred million dollars over the course of 20 years.

Financial advisors often urge individuals to pay down debt balances whenever possible. It seems that would be a prudent move for the state as well.

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130 responses to “A Conservative Fiscal Proposal”

  1. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    Families don’t have debts to retire? I didn’t look at the report, but I suspect it shows Virginia is not in excess of its (consevative) debt capacity. The point here is tax revenue will still grow even after some modest rate reductions. Christmas is behind us, Scrooge. Go home. 🙂

  2. Bob X from Texas Avatar
    Bob X from Texas

    Somehow paying down debt and fiscal responsibility will be determined to be RACIST and Transphobic.

  3. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    In my youth, which because of arrested development lasted well into my fifties before cynicism finally took over, I had always considered conservatism with not acting rashly. I always pictured the wisdom of conservatism as Jimmie Stewart saying, “Now-now wait just a darn minute, Farley.” That went the way of the Dodo when I had the great fortune to hear Grover Norquist speak on taxes and heard that ALL Republicans had signed his pledge. That’s when I realized that they are like rabid dogs on taxes. Not spending, mind you. Just taxes.

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      And I’ve grown cynical watching leftists adopt every tax scheme they could devise to “to take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned” to buy votes. California, a free state since it was part of Mexico and loyal to the Union, is about to pay racial reparations. Makes my point perfectly. Tax and spend and vote for more!

    2. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      And I’ve grown cynical watching leftists adopt every tax scheme they could devise to “to take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned” to buy votes. California, a free state since it was part of Mexico and loyal to the Union, is about to pay racial reparations. Makes my point perfectly. Tax and spend and vote for more!

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        The justification for dumb tax policy in Virginia is to distract the discussion by pointing to California?

        that’s SO…. “conservative”!

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          California is a better place to live by far. Hawaii is expensive too. One maxim that continues to survive the test of time, “You get what you pay for.”

          Personally, I like my potholes in Pittsburg.

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Beats spend & borrow. That’s mortgaging the future. Republicans may have reduced taxes but not one red cent of debt, nor debt rate.

      3. James McCarthy Avatar
        James McCarthy

        Others have grown cynical reading comments that state corporate taxes are assessed twice – once upon the corp and then upon the salaries of employees. Of course, the corp deducts the salaries, then may owe taxes on the profit. Blessed be Mitt Romney.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          getting straight and honest answers from Conservatives on these issues is like pulling hens teeth!

          1. Nathan Avatar
            Nathan

            There are many examples of unfair taxation by those who actually pay taxes.

            Here’s another example – capital gains taxes.

            To be fair, the calculation for gains should be indexed for inflation. For example, if my investment gains 15% over two years, but inflation over that period of time was 14 %, then my actual gain was only 1%.

            Today, however, the gain doesn’t account for inflation and I would pay capital gains on the entire 15% in my example above.

            https://www.heritage.org/taxes/commentary/its-time-stop-taxing-inflation-and-start-indexing-capital-gains#:~:text=One%20of%20the%20best%20places,of%20double%20taxation%20on%20investment.

        2. Nathan Avatar
          Nathan

          There is indeed double taxation, but it’s on dividends, not salaries.

          “The double taxation of dividends is a reference to how corporate earnings and dividends are taxed by the U.S. government.

          Corporations pay taxes on their earnings and then pay shareholders dividends out of the after-tax earnings.

          Shareholders receiving dividend payments from a company must then pay taxes on that income as part of their personal income taxes.

          Because of this requirement, some corporations opt to avoid paying dividends to shareholders and instead reinvest the money internally.”

          https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answers/03/102203.asp#:~:text=The%20double%20taxation%20of%20dividends%20is%20a%20reference%20to%20how,of%20the%20after%2Dtax%20earnings.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            If it’s “qualified dividends”, the tax rate is different and can be zero, right?

          2. Nathan Avatar
            Nathan

            Only if the person is low income and doesn’t pay tax. Very few in that bracket get significant dividends from stocks.

            “These dividends are taxable federally at the capital gains rate, which depends on the investor’s modified adjusted gross income (AGI) and taxable income (the rates are 0%, 15%, and 20%). Higher earners are also impacted by the 3.8% net investment income tax (NIIT) outlined in the Affordable Care Act. So many actually pay an effective rate of 18.8% (15%+3.8% for the NIIT) or 23.8% (20%+3.8%) on long-term capital gains and dividends.”

            https://www.fidelity.com/tax-information/tax-topics/qualified-dividends#:~:text=Qualified%20dividends%20are%20generally%20dividends,known%20as%20a%20holding%20period.

            But the point is that same dollar is taxed twice. The corporation pays tax on it, as does the shareholder. That makes no sense.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            so if someone pays income tax on what they earn and then they pay tax on it again when they spend it for groceries and gas, taxed again also?

          4. Nathan Avatar
            Nathan

            No. Sales tax is an entirely different thing and everyone pays income tax then sales tax if they buy something taxable. That’s not considered double taxation.

            Read my original post again. It explains how the corporation and shareholder both pay tax on the same profit.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I saw it. What is the concept of “qualified dividends”?

      4. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        For all it’s faults and it does have them, California is still the 8th biggest economy in the world AND moving UP:

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a8e9f477e8f9d7f6036c546e2ce8a0638630a4e75a0e6c85d11c0ce60e34bef7.jpg

        1. Turbocohen Avatar
          Turbocohen

          Imagine is half the population in Virginia was on food stamps.. https://usdebtclock.org/state-debt-clocks/state-of-california-debt-clock.html

          1. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            According to that site..

            VA Pop: 8,845,907
            VA FSR: 737,963

            From those numbers, 8.34% of Virginia’s population is on food stamps.

            For California..

            CA Pop: 39,596,397
            CA FSR: 4,105,696

            From those numbers, 10.37% of California’s population is on food stamps.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            and 40+% of kids born are paid for by Medicaid. Right?

            https://www.kff.org/medicaid/state-indicator/births-financed-by-medicaid/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D

          3. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            The figure for Virginia is 32%, hardly anything to be proud of.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I agree. But it’s the reality. 1/3 of kids in the public schools were paid for by taxpayers and likely are still getting their healthcare from Medicaid.

          5. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            “Imagine if ONLY half of the population…”

            Fixed.

  4. Paul Sweet Avatar
    Paul Sweet

    I wonder how much of the tax burden is local taxes (real estate, personal property) rather than state.

    Personal income tax rates need to be adjusted for inflation in the half century since they were set. The standard deduction should be increased so exemptions plus standard deduction are closer to the federal standard deduction, or people who take the standard deduction for federal taxes should be allowed to itemize deductions on their state return.

    Using some of the surplus for capital projects is a good idea. I believe that Virginia used to fund most capital projects from General funds until the 2008 recession when capital projects were converted to bond funds. I (mis)managed construction projects for a state agency before I retired, and projects were often delayed for several months because the state was close to it’s bond funding percentage limit, and new projects couldn’t be funded until previous bond funds were repaid. (I was never privy to what was going on at DPB, so this might not be completely accurate, but it’s how it appeared to an outsider)

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      The local element is huge, especially in Northern VA (but no longer just there.)

      1. how_it_works Avatar
        how_it_works

        The property taxes on my old townhouse in Manassas Park were approaching $5K a year last time I checked.

        $5K a year. For an 1180 sq foot townhouse. In Manassas Park.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          And if you had a kid in school, it would not cover that cost, much less the other non-school costs. Every house like that needs another taxpayer or two to help make up that deficit.

          right?

          1. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Part of Manassas Park’s problem (but by no means the only one) is that they are heavily residential. It’s been called a subdivision that became a city.

            The lack of commercial properties in the city contributes to the high property taxes.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            How about when people leave and move south to Spotsylvania and leave behind others who have to pay higher taxes to make up for that? Or is that not really an issue?

          3. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            It’s not an issue because for every person that leaves Manassas Park, there’s another one moving in to take their place.

            EDIT: When city data had that info on their Manassas Park page, the average length of time that someone lived in Manassas Park was only 6 years. It’s a pretty transient city.

          4. Tom B Avatar
            Tom B

            Kids are in school for 12 years, taxes on the house go on forever.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            THey do…. to pay for the schools, right?

            so if you tally up the total public school cost for a kid for K-12, how long would it take a “house” to pay the taxes necessary to fund that cost?

          6. Tom B Avatar
            Tom B

            I agree. We pay far too much for public education. And we get far too little in return.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            so let folks pay to educate their own kids and let others pay less taxes on their homes!

            The parents that can’t pay, just let their kids roam the streets, etc.

            Everyone else can used their saved tax money to build fences and walls and hire private guards?

          8. Tom B Avatar
            Tom B

            That’s the only alternative you can conceive of? That explains a lot of your posts on BR.

          9. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            did you see the “?”

            surely you don’t favor taxing folks, taking their money and giving it to others to spend as individuals, right?

          10. Tom B Avatar
            Tom B

            That’s the only alternative you can conceive of, right?

          11. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            nope.
            but I’m asking you what you think also.

            I have definite thoughts but am asking you the question also.

            got ideas?

          12. Tom B Avatar
            Tom B

            Oh, I thought you were offering a straw man argument.

          13. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            nope.

            But I AM asking what is the fundamental purpose of “public education”?

            what justfies taking money from people for the purpose of education and how do we assure the money is actually spent for specific purposes.

            How do we NOT just give money away without knowing if it actually did produce something of value?

            How would we know if we did not have similar requirements and standards for tax money spent “alternatives”?

          14. Tom B Avatar
            Tom B

            Noting that the case for a tax rate reduction is still a strong one and that the devil is in the details.

            purpose: To produce adults who can function as responsible citizens in a free society.

            justification: A free society cannnot stay free if without a well educated citizenry.

            We know that the educational system is broken. For decades we have given it more and more $ per student, at a pace greater than inflation, and the results continue to decline.

            The educational system is rewarded for failure. Failure leads to larger budgets and greater salaries, but never to greater accountability. The educational experts pontificate, but they don’t educate; continuing to reward them will only lead to more of the same.

          15. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            “public education” IS successful and if the fundamental difference between developed countries and undeveloped countries – around the world.

            Period.

            It is a long way from perfect by any stretch of the imagination but a failure it is not.

            This country has the highest GDP per capita in the world which is directly attributable to public education.

            That justifies taxation and when we do that we require that every kid be educated not just certain ones and we requires that every student be tested and that the results are provided to the public for accountability.

            We do not snf will not tax people and give the money to someone else to spend as they see fit for a non-public education.

            I am fine with vouchers as long as they have to meet the same exact standards as public schools do.

            That means they have to take every kid no matter their economic circumstance and they have to produce the results of their performance the same way that public schools do.

            But what we don’t and won’t do is tax people to give that money to someone else to pay for a private school that does not have to accept every kid and does not have to report results, not held accountable to the same standards that we hold public education.

          16. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            “public education” IS successful and if the fundamental difference between developed countries and undeveloped countries – around the world.

            Period.

            It is a long way from perfect by any stretch of the imagination but a failure it is not.

            This country has the highest GDP per capita in the world which is directly attributable to public education.

            That justifies taxation and when we do that we require that every kid be educated not just certain ones and we requires that every student be tested and that the results are provided to the public for accountability.

            We do not snf will not tax people and give the money to someone else to spend as they see fit for a non-public education.

            I am fine with vouchers as long as they have to meet the same exact standards as public schools do.

            That means they have to take every kid no matter their economic circumstance and they have to produce the results of their performance the same way that public schools do.

            But what we don’t and won’t do is tax people to give that money to someone else to pay for a private school that does not have to accept every kid and does not have to report results, not held accountable to the same standards that we hold public education.

          17. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Well, in the case of Manassas Park, maybe if they’d used the tax money to increase teacher salaries to be competitive with the rest of Northern Virginia instead of building Taj Mahals, there would have been a better outcome.

        2. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
          f/k/a_tmtfairfax

          It would be interesting to see what are the ratios between staff and line employees in both Manassas Park city and school operations from the time when you owned your townhouse in MP and today. I define “line” employees to mean those directly and primarily involved in the delivery of services to the public. Everyone else is staff.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            that is actually available:

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/95b3451a5796a990cca1eb34981200dddc8ae25e2101da0b5f3770a85f71663f.jpg

            https://www.apa.virginia.gov/APA_Reports/LG_ComparativeReports.aspx

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/10c69744cff2616d1280ecd0bb851be60a7d072954643918609b7bd035d0d1ed.jpg

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      re: ” Using some of the surplus for capital projects is a good idea. ”

      I agree. In good “revenue” times, the state ought to:

      1. make their rainy day fund “whole”
      2. address things that have not been adequately funded in past budgets
      3. capital projects

      THEN consider tax rebates – which by the way Northam had proposed also but not to the extent that Conservatives wanted.

      I continue to think the GIlmore car tax is an rube-Guldberg abomination …

      It not only interferes with local tax and election/accountability issues, it puts a spending burden on the state to boot.

      It ends up, essentially collecting taxes from folks then “giving” it back to the locality instead of letting the locality do the tax in the first place.

    3. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      “Personal income tax rates need to be adjusted for inflation in the half century since they were set.”

      Some people don’t like change.

    4. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Virginia was using bonds to fund capital projects for many years prior to 2008. There were a few years in whivh GF cash was used, but there would soon be years in which additional gf was needed and the GA would authorize bonds to supplant the GF balances in capital projects. 2008 was one of those years.

      There were times after 2008 when only a limited number of projects could be funded because there was not enough debt capacity. In effect, that meant outstanding debt had to be reduced and revenues had to improve.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        The debt ratio among other metrics affects the bond ratings of the State as well as the local jurisdictions.

        Virginia is one of about a dozen states that continues to maintain a AAA bond rating which is considered to be the gold standard for responsible fiscal policy.

        The are counties and cities in Virginia that also maintain a AAA bond rating including Richmond City which gets clobbered in BR all the time on a variety of issues:

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a4db5cff141bfb72a321302c725ac274a2923de5d6bde32f386e0ad187c84e53.jpg

  5. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    Families don’t have debts to retire? Business should borrow more so the government can pay cash? I didn’t look at the report, but I suspect it shows Virginia is not in excess of its (conservative) debt capacity. The point here is tax revenue will still grow even after some modest rate reductions. Christmas is behind us, Scrooge. Go home. 🙂

    If I thought the interest money you claim you wish to save would also go back to taxpayers the argument would have more credibility. But it won’t under your team. You’ll spend it.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      As you pointed out in your summary of the tax proposal, a family can expect to pay about $100-120 less in taxes. Not much debt retirement there.

      1. Stephen Haner Avatar
        Stephen Haner

        The rate cut plus the higher standard deduction add up to more than that, and many people have Schedule C or partnership income so would benefit from the qualified business income subtraction, too. Combined it’s real tax relief.

  6. Nathan Avatar
    Nathan

    Some years back, the state borrowed money from the retirement system. Has that been paid back? If not, that would be my first use for any excess funds.

    https://richmond.com/news/state-will-dip-into-pension-fund-repay-with-7-5-interest/article_5fc2cbea-c766-53af-9e9b-188950f8ae8d.html

    I am not suggesting that just because I am a retired state employee. It makes sense to put money into the system during a downturn in the market.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      I am pretty sure it has been paid back. In fact, one of the proposals in Northam’s lat budget was an extra deposit to VRS.

      1. Nathan Avatar
        Nathan

        Thanks. I looked but couldn’t find confirmation.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Is this it?

          “Gov. Ralph Northam is proposing a new way to help local school divisions in Virginia by using $100 million in state cash to reduce retirement and health care liabilities for teachers.

          In the revised budget he will present to General Assembly money committees on Wednesday, Northam will propose to pay off a $61.3 million debt that the state incurred 10 years ago when it deferred contributions to the teacher pension plan to help balance the state budget after the Great Recession.

          The governor also will use $38.7 million in one-time money to pay down unfunded liabilities for teacher and state employee retirement health credits and other post-employment benefits.

          https://richmond.com/news/state-and-regional/govt-and-politics/northam-to-spend-100-million-to-reduce-teacher-retirement-liabilities/article_f8dc8a78-6687-5cb1-b1d7-d0513698c5bb.html#tncms-source=login

          1. Nathan Avatar
            Nathan

            That’s it.

          2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            Thanks, Larry. Also, Northam included a $250 million deposit to VRS in the current budget from surplus revenues.

      2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead

        Well, the credit goes to Bob McDonnell. Although I do applaud Northam’s work to strengthen VRS.

        “We helped secure your retirement by making the largest deposit into our pension system in history: $2.2 billion in 2012. We also fixed the untenable cash position of VRS with major reforms to reduce future unfunded liabilities by $9 billion over 25 years. I have included $315 million in the budget to fully fund the payback of previous deferrals, and the graduated implementation of the new 7% rate of return.”
        https://www.governing.com/archive/gov-virginia-bob-mcdonnell-state-address.html
        https://www.baconsrebellion.com/in-defense-of-mcdonnells-vrs-reforms/
        https://bluevirginia.us/2011/12/va-dems-blast-mcdonnells-vrs-plan-as-unfunded-mandate-forcing-cuts-to-kids-seniors-healthcare

  7. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    so how bad is Virginia on taxes (in addition to paying it’s debts AND insuring that we DO really have additional revenue to rebate not only this year but forecast years? :

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5a03f84a373c8ac86f7f760e5ebd9cd098835bf3b8f4cc3dd672c7605c4d9907.jpg

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5fa2daeeee2c6fc137d49966d80be8c548135697e4d67fb2562f594a130561cc.jpg

    https://taxfoundation.org/publications/state-local-tax-burden-rankings/

    Now some “conservatives” think ANY tax is wrong and we kinda know who they are when that’s the way they argue about “giving it back”.

    1. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      43rd highest out of 50 states.

      Is that something to be proud of? California is #46.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        one of the problems is the refusal to deal with truth!

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/376cf2a7cc6f0d466e08a52fd538d8a1e8ee84cbc5801e03358b6e85ab2fcedc.jpg

        https://smartasset.com/taxes/virginia-tax-calculator#:~:text=The%20Commonwealth%27s%20sales%20tax%20ranks,than%20their%20respective%20national%20averages.

        1. how_it_works Avatar
          how_it_works

          Did they take into account the personal property tax rate?

          EDIT: No, they did not.

          I saw one (from Kiplinger) that didn’t.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            But we’re talking about the State of Virginia and it’s income taxes, right?

            Isn’t that what Youngkin is talking about in justifying rebates?

          2. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            No, I think the topic of the conversation has shifted to your obvious lack of reading comprehension.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            “Governor Youngkin has proposed tax reductions that would reduce state revenue by about $1 billion in this biennium.”

          4. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            You claimed that Virginia is a low-tax state.

            You then posted a link to an article that shows that Virginia is in the top 10 of states with the highest local/state tax burden, presumably because you didn’t figure out what it was saying in the 3 seconds of time you actually spent looking at it.

            Am I right?

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I did… my bad….

            You are correct.

            I did misread the table but that table is not consistent with other tables on the web that show different numbers based purely on Virginia State tax and not including the local tax burden.

            The top 10 highest income tax states (or legal jurisdictions) for 2021 are:

            California 13.3%
            Hawaii 11%
            New Jersey 10.75%
            Oregon 9.9%
            Minnesota 9.85%
            District of Columbia 8.95%
            New York 8.82%
            Vermont 8.75%
            Iowa 8.53%
            Wisconsin 7.65%

            https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/fun-facts/states-with-the-highest-and-lowest-taxes/L6HPAVqSF

            So, Virginia is NOT one of the lowest but it’s also not one of the highests.

            correct?

          6. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Well, see, that table you’re looking at now is only comparing income taxes.

            The one you looked at before is comparing ALL taxes, state and local.

            For the purposes of knowing what you’re going to be paying in taxes for a state you’re considering moving to, you probably want to take into account ALL the taxes, not just income taxes.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            for the purposes of THIS discussion about whether Virginia State taxes are “too high” and thus rebates are justified… according to Youngkin, compare Virginia to other states taxing of income.

            We are not a high tax state with regard to State Income Taxes.

            If there is a discussion about “too high taxes” then it might point to local taxes more appropriately which would not be a Youngkin tax policy thing

          8. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            “We are not a high tax state with regard to State Income Taxes.”

            Yes, but we sure make up for it with other taxes, don’t we?

          9. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            We do but the idea that the State is taxing too much is not correct.

            Agree?

            We’re possibly on the verge of doing a Kansas type “mistake” that will come to us in future years irrespective of the local tax burden issue…

            It’s happened before.

            The basic premise with Youngkin and like-minded Conservatives is that Virginia taxes are TOO HIGH but they’re simply not when compared to other states tax rates and revenues.

            Even when you add in the local taxes, we’re still not in the same league with California/New York…

          10. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            “Even when you add in the local taxes, we’re still not in the same league with California/New York…”

            Not yet, anyway!

          11. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            and if you compare us to the States that have no income tax….

            or worse, states that have no income tax and no sales taxes….

            For me, the issue is more than just taxes, it’s govt spending.

            Is Virginia a frugal state when it comes to spending?

            Does it need to cut spending and on what?

            What are we spending too much on or inefficiently compared to other states?

            That ought to be part of any discussion about taxes and cuts IMO.

          12. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            for the purposes of THIS discussion about whether Virginia State taxes are “too high” and thus rebates are justified… according to Youngkin, compare Virginia to other states taxing of income.

            We are not a high tax state with regard to State Income Taxes.

            If there is a discussion about “too high taxes” then it might point to local taxes more appropriately which would not be a Youngkin tax policy thing

          13. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            You claimed that Virginia is a low-tax state.

            You then posted a link to an article that shows that Virginia is in the top 10 of states with the highest local/state tax burden, presumably because you didn’t figure out what it was saying in the 3 seconds of time you actually spent looking at it.

            Am I right?

        2. how_it_works Avatar
          how_it_works

          From that first link you posted:

          The states with the highest state-local tax burdens in calendar year 2022 were:

          1. New York (15.9 percent)
          2. Connecticut (15.4 percent)
          3. Hawaii (14.1 percent)
          4. Vermont (13.6 percent)
          5. California (13.5 percent)
          6. New Jersey (13.2 percent)
          7. Illinois (12.9 percent)
          8. Virginia (12.5 percent)
          9. Delaware (12.4 percent)
          10. Maine (12.4 percent)

          Did you not read that thing all the way through and assumed that the #1 ranking was the highest-tax state????

  8. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    For retired folk in Virginia, I don’t believe they tax social security AND they don’t tax the first 12K of pension income per person so a married couple is 24K.

    I strongly suspect that many retired people in Virginia pay MORE in local real estate and personal property tax than State tax unless the county also cuts them a break on their age or income or veteran status.

    Virginia is a legitimate LOW tax state and it’s generally frugal and careful in it’s spending and the problem with cutting taxes is the uncertainty in the economic forecasts which are not very stable right now.

    But all this “extra” revenue really contradicts the standard conservative narrative not only with respect to Va actually being one of the lower taxed states but about it’s economy which conservatives also routinely claim to be weak and anemic…and then hurt “bad” by Northam but in spite of all this horrible stuff, we STILL have “massive surpluses”.

    Who to believe? Well, not Conservatives when it comes to taxes – they know no bounds… any tax is “too much” , any tax revenue suspect as unwarranted and taking from people what is “theirs”.

    Gloom and doom predicted from the tax&spend liberals but at the end of the day, Virginia experiences “shortfalls” in the years after conservatives do tax cuts. Truth!

  9. walter smith Avatar
    walter smith

    I always love the Dems “helping” conservatives with budget advice. It is always “pay down the debt.”
    But when they are in power, it is SPEND SPEND SPEND like drunken sailors, except drunken sailors spend their own money!
    I have a better idea. Cut the programs. Cut the bloat. Cut the tax rates. Raise the income level for the top rate. Cut cut cut. Then force the Dems to make choices…
    In general, I choose more freedom for individuals, which means less government. And based on Covidiocy and K-12 and on and on, you think more government is good?

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Youngkin has not proposed cuts. Under Kaine and McAullife there were budget cuts.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        RIght. Youngkin is claiming that all the tax cuts are over and above what is needed to fund the budget. right?

        1. walter smith Avatar
          walter smith

          I don’t know and I don’t care. I want the “budget” cut. Period. Full of waste and worthless programs that don’t provide anywhere near the value.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I don’t think he’s proposing cuts….
            In fact, he’s proposing more spending…

          2. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Proving why I am lukewarm on Youngkin…
            See how easy it is to be honest and not a partisan hack?

          3. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            hey how about this? Spend more money on it?

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/73b4c509c3157955fda9f6931c8382610ec4cc09dfa73c0994b16258772a2b0b.jpg

          4. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Time to low your head up. Why is there an increase in depression amidst unprecedented wealth?
            Why the family breakdown? Why the crimes and drugs?
            Liberal policies.
            What is the answer?
            Jesus.
            Return to Judeo-Christian morality. It worked. All the “improvements” have made it worse. The kids are indoctrinated into there is no truth. Which is a contradiction itself. No wonder they feel disaffected and unhappy.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            so, is that a no?

      2. walter smith Avatar
        walter smith

        And you think I am a Youngkin cheerleader?
        He is better than Terry McAwful. That’s all it took.
        He did come out of the PE world. And he is likely better than the vast majority of PE types, but still…
        And were the budget cuts under Kaine and McAwful due to Republican control?
        Were there budget cuts under Northam?

        1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          The budget cuts under both Kaine and McAuliffe were proposed by them in response to revenue shortfalls.

          OK. You want the budget cut. Fair enough. What would you propose
          cutting and by how much?

          1. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            I haven’t studied the budget. Prior to TDS and Covidiocy, I thought the Fed budget could probably be cut 25 to 33%. Then I started looking into UVA. Academia and the Fed Govt is a huge money laundering operation. The Twitter files just proved all my suspicions. My interactions with the Virginia Govt over COVID make me confident much could be cut

          2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            People who call for “cutting the budget” without knowing enough about the budget to even suggest specific programs or areas that should be cut have no credibility. For example, a large factor in recent budget increases has been an increase in the pay of state employees. Included in those actions were larger increases for law enforcement and correctional officers. Or, to take another example, the largest increase Youngkin proposed was for economic
            development. He also proposed increases for mental health crisis services. Would you like to see cuts in any of those areas?

          3. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            All of the above

          4. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            IOW – Govt is the enemy?

          5. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            What does your beloved government do well, besides censorship and spying on citizens?
            Hey, I was right about Covid and the EUA and the “misinformation” wasn’t I? How did a history major do that?

          6. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            well, if it was run by Trump?

          7. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Answer my question. What does government do well besides spy on citizens and censor?
            Did Trump “run” the executive agencies? Obviously not. That should be a problem for people who supposedly want to “save our democracy.” What they really meant was/is save our oligarchy/kleptocracy.

          8. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            GPS Satellites? NOAA , NTSB, FAA, to name a few.

            NOw answer mine!

            better with Trump?

          9. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            I am not convinced by your examples.
            The government would be better with Trump if he was actually allowed to re-organize it. He was proposing making it easier to fire employees. That is desperately needed. Workers should not be able to unionize against their ultimate bosses, the people. But Trump’s “government” should be to make it smaller. Smaller is better.

          10. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            get rid of the EPA and HHS?

          11. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            They can’t be improved?
            EPA should be mostly abolished. HHS is responsible for a lot of problems in healthcare, but so is Medicare…

          12. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I thought you wanted to dump most of them not improve them. Not redeemable, right?

            or just need a dictator type like Trump to personally fix it?

          13. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            As usual, wasting time. No improvement is possible? And I would like to abolish EPA, Ed dept, the 16th and 17th amendments….
            The government is too big. It needs to be reduced and less important in our lives.

          14. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Won’t get rid of any unless you have a POTUS who will personally work neuter it then dismantle it.

            Congress won’t do it . Has to be by strongman POTUS.

            right?

          15. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Larry – do you try to be an idiot?
            Trump was not the authoritarian that all you Lefties cried about. Biden is. The FBI/DOJ are his Stasi. And you are OK with it!
            It will take a long time to fix. It took a long time of letting you Commies F it up. But truth will eventually win out…

          16. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            So Trump was the man? right?

          17. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            I am in the process of putting together an article that will address this question. It is too long to go into in a comment, But I will give you the short answer: run prisons. There are also: state parks (Virginia has one of the best parks systems in the country), forensic analysis, medical schools, higher ed in general, law enforcement, health inspections, to name a few

          18. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Some merit, but every single one, to the extent it is needed, can be run better. Med schools going woke? CRT/DEi/SEL as “education?” Who takes advantage of the state parks? Seems it is mostly the wealthy. How about the Open Conservancy Fund? Seems to benefit the gentry. Plenty of fat everywhere, besides whole divisions to get rid of.

          19. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            So you do not think State troopers and sheriffs’ deputies should get raises?

          20. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            I would more eliminate many positions in the bureaucracies. The VDH pretty much proved itself worthless, except for repeating what the CDC said. I am against the economic development bribery schemes. I would prefer that we have the best business climate and “win” that way. The education department? You know what I think!

          21. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            So you don’t think State troopers sheriffs’ deputies deserve a raise?

  10. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    These two men pictured would have combined Mr. Dick’s plan with Youngkin’s plan.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4210d9bf2b232a17c2c3c2e9dcd986486af8908c0d3849846c57e0f3c007ad59.jpg

  11. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    The fact that Conservatives support paying for tax cuts for the rich by piling it on the national debt for some future generation to pay is all you need to know about their lack of fiscal responsibility. This is just another example.

    1. walter smith Avatar
      walter smith

      Troll – you are an idiot. The rich pay the taxes. You can’t steal enough money to make things work by taking all of the “rich” money. You want equity? Cut taxes and government.

      1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        The rich pay significantly less taxes since Conservatives held a trifecta and passed the Trump tax cut for the rich… paying for it not through spending reductions but through increases to the deficit. That is the Conservative standard now…

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Only fair that Conservatives have to pay back the tax cuts that were “paid for” through debt.

          You’re right.

          They talk this fiscal conservative S_it out the wazoo but look at what they actually do.

          What a bunch of hypocrites!

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Only fair that Conservatives have to pay back the tax cuts that were “paid for” through debt.

          You’re right.

          They talk this fiscal conservative S_it out the wazoo but look at what they actually do.

          What a bunch of hypocrites!

  12. Donald Smith Avatar
    Donald Smith

    Never ceases to amaze me how intent Democrats are on fiscal discipline when they are out of power. Apparently they feel they are entitled to spend money, and the rest of us should save money until the next time Democrats are in power.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      It never ceases to amaze me how Republicans complain about Democrats spending so much, yet deficits and spending increase when Republicans are in power.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        And Virginia continues to maintain a AAA bond rating for quite some time under Dems….

        Youngkins “proposal” is going to run into some hard looks in the GA from both Dems and GOP.

  13. VaPragamtist Avatar
    VaPragamtist

    Or give the money to localities for the same purpose–paying off debt and/or funding planned capital projects. Would the long term savings be greater that way? The economic impact?

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      I kind of like that idea but needs some significant strings or else some yahoos would not be prudent with it.

      Perhaps “give” to localities but force taxpayer referenda as to where spent.

      Don’t let it be used to supplant operational costs – just capital projects and prioritize water supply, wastewater, schools, transportation, etc.

      Not near as sexy politic but a prudent use of such funds IMO.

      GOod idea!

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        We already do a lot of that.

        1. VaPragamtist Avatar
          VaPragamtist

          In what ways?

      2. how_it_works Avatar
        how_it_works

        I know of one city that was using water and sewer tap fees to purchase gallons of water and sewage treatment, instead of using those tap fees for capital costs as I suspect they were intended.

        And when I say “gallons of sewage treatment” I do not mean they purchased capacity in a sewage treatment plant. I mean they used those fees to lower the water and sewer bills for their customers.

        An example of yahoos not being prudent.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          that is not uncommon. Spotsy was doing it for awhile, mingling the tap fees with the monthly fees instead of dealing with them on a separate basis.

          local govt is basically local citizens and unless they have professional staff help AND listen to it, they’ll do stupid things that a lot of ordinary citizens who are financially unsophisticated will also do.

          The counties that strive to attain and keep AAA bond ratings typically take more seriously fiscal planning and responsibility IMO.

          Major capital projects take serious fiscal planning and some counties need the state to ride herd.

          1. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Same city..one of the public works employees asked the new public works director, “How come the old public works director never asked us to look for water leaks before?”

            I don’t know how he answered, but I might have said, “Probably because she’s incompetent”.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I know. We expect “professional” performance but the reality is that such performance is not necessarily a given especially in local govt and more so in small local govt.

            For wastewater, the state (and the EPA) has to ride herd for most of them.

            They simply will not do what is required unless they are forced to.

            That’s why we still have CSOs not fixed in most cities.

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