A Case Against Further Tax Cuts

by Dick Hall-Sizemore

After more than a decade of state budget revenue shortfalls and concomitant budget cuts, one would think there would be smiles all round at the news of revenues coming in substantially above the projections, resulting in a healthy general fund surplus. Incongruously, that was not the case.

Republicans seemed to be outraged that the state brought in so much more money than was projected. There were calls to give it back to the taxpayers. It is somewhat curious that these are the folks who often demand that government be run like a business, yet there are no demands that large companies, such as big oil companies, for example, give refunds to their customers when they bring in record profits.

Governor Youngkin, not satisfied with large tax cuts in 2022, wants taxes cut even further. In July, citing the expectation of revenues exceeding the forecast (which was admittedly on the low side), he declared, “There’s no reason why we shouldn’t be able to have a substantial tax reduction.” In his address to the money committees in August, after citing the advances his administration had accomplished with the increased revenues and the challenges still ahead, he announced, “This is our moment to soar.” But, not too high, it would appear, because “we must provide substantial tax relief.”

Democrats, on the other hand, have been rather feckless. They resisted the Governor’s call for reductions in the top individual and corporate tax rates but went along with increases in the standard deduction and additional tax cuts for veterans. And, from the beginning, they advocated one-time tax rebates to individuals, eventually settling at $200 for individuals and $400 for those filing jointly. (It is an election year, after all.) It seemed that they were embarrassed over the good financial condition of the Commonwealth.

There are two situations that would justify tax cuts. The first would be a case of taxes being unreasonably high. The second would be a situation in which the government had sufficient revenue to meet the state’s needs and there was no responsible way to spend additional money.

Let’s face it—no one likes to pay taxes. Furthermore, there are some that will always say that taxes are too high.  However, despite the Governor’s claim that “the people of Virginia are overtaxed,” Virginia is not a high-tax state.

According to most analyses, the Commonwealth is ranked in the middle of all states in terms of the total state/local tax burden on individuals.  For example, the Tax Policy Center, a joint enterprise of the Urban Institute and the Brookings Institution, ranks the Commonwealth no. 29 in percentage of personal income going to state and local tax revenues (the highest percentage is rank no. 1).  The Tax Foundation ranks Virginia “26th overall in our 2023 State Business Tax Climate Index.”

As for unmet needs that would mitigate against tax cuts, is there anyone who can honestly say that there are no governmental activities for which additional funds are not needed?  Consider the following areas:

K-12 Education

The Joint Legislative Audit and Review Commission (JLARC) has documented that the actual cost of implementing the state Standards of Quality (SOQ) is more than the cost calculated by the SOQ formula, upon which the state bases its SOQ appropriation. The localities pick up the balance. In FY 2021, JLARC calculated that, if the state had funded its share of the true SOQ costs, an additional $2 billion in state funds would have been needed. Furthermore, many educators contend that the SOQ standards are the minimum and additional staffing is needed.

Since FY 2021, the state has appropriated an additional $563 million in SOQ funding. Considering that the actual costs, and corresponding local spending, have increased, the gap between what the state’s appropriation is and what it should be is still quite large. Any additional tax cuts will diminish even further the ability to make up that difference.

Higher Education

Much has been written on this blog about the high cost of education and the burdens placed on students and parents. The Commonwealth has the opportunity to tackle that problem and need.

A major reason for this affordability problem has been the shifting of the costs of higher education from state appropriations to tuition. According to a 2022 study commissioned by the State Council of Higher Education for Virginia at the direction of the General Assembly, “The state’s institutions have grown rapidly more dependent on tuition revenue over the past two decades—the burdens of funding shifted toward students and families by 23.6 percentage points between FY 2000 and FY 2020, a greater change than in all but 10 other states.” Moreover, “comparison to institution-specific comparison groups of similar institutions across the country reveals that Virginia’s institutions collect more from tuition and less from state appropriations.”

Governor Northam and the General Assembly had taken some steps toward decreasing the dependence on tuition and fees. In the 2019 Session, the General Assembly provided an additional $52.5 million for FY 2020 to support higher education operations in exchange for institutions not increasing tuition. In subsequent years, additional appropriations have been provided to maintain or increase “affordable access.” These appropriations were placed in the “Education and General Programs” (E&G) accounts to be used for general operating expenses, the same as tuition and fee revenues. After FY 2020, there was no contingency regarding tuition increases. Since FY 2020, including the recently enacted budget, $490 million in new appropriations was provided over the course of the years. At the end of each biennium, the total of the second year appropriation was continued in the institutions’ base budgets. As a result, since FY 2020, higher ed institutions had been provided a total of $927 million to enable affordable access. At the end of this biennium, there will be $335 million in their base budgets to carry over into each year of the next biennium. A major infusion of additional funding of, say, $500 million next biennium ($250 million each year) could do much to further reduce the dependence on tuition.

Some readers of this blog will protest that giving higher ed such a large sum of money would validate its high costs and encourage growth in the administrative expenses, while tuition and fees would still be too high. Those would be valid criticisms. However, there are existing offsetting forces and additional steps that could be taken to improve the overall situation.

The Youngkin appointees now constitute a majority on all the boards of visitors. We can count on those appointees to begin reining in higher ed administrative expenses. Can’t we?

If such a large appropriation is provided to “maintain affordable access,” the Governor and the General Assembly could and should take further steps beyond just providing money. Each institution should be required to reduce its tuition and fees commensurate with the additional funding it received. For example, if an institution received $10 million out of that $250 million to maintain affordable access, it would have to reduce its tuition and fees by an amount that would have produced $10 million revenue. That would result in a net zero increase in E&G revenue. (Any additional increase in tuition and fees would be dependent on General Assembly approval.) Such a requirement would benefit all parents, but especially those middle-class parents whose kids did not qualify for need-based financial assistance.

To address the issue of bloated administrative costs, the Governor and the General Assembly could go further. They could require higher ed institutions to reduce their administrative costs by five percent and to reflect those savings in additional tuition and fee reductions. The best way to reduce an agency’s expenditures is to cut its budget and let it figure out the best way to absorb those cuts.

Mental Health

The need for more mental health beds in Virginia has been well-documented, as well as the need for more outpatient mental health treatment. To his credit, Governor Youngkin included in his budget proposals last winter a plan to build out a crisis response system for mental health. To the $78.3 million (some of it one-time funding) Youngkin included, the General Assembly added $68 million.  To build out the crisis response teams; increase the capacity of the community services boards as recommended by JLARC; expand inpatient services; and support the findings and recommendations of the Virginia Behavioral Commission will require significant new funding.

Other

In addition to these three high-profile, high-cost areas, there are numerous needs in smaller areas that do not get much attention. Two examples would be (1) indigent defense in which there is a need for higher pay and additional staff; and (2) more Health Department inspectors for nursing homes, which Jim Sherlock has documented on this blog.

The 900 million dollar-question

The compromise reached by Republicans and Democrats over the state budget included an increase in the standard deduction, a tax cut for veterans, and one-time rebates of $200 for individuals and $400 for couples filing jointly. Citing the uncertainty of future revenues and not wanting to bake additional tax cuts into the Code, the Democrats had insisted on the rebates instead.

The following argument deals with the rebates only. It is estimated that they will total $906.8 million. A lot of those rebates, probably a large majority of them, will go to people who do not really need it.

Using the same conservative approach taken by the General Assembly, how could that $906.8 million have been put to a one-time use with a long-term benefit for the Commonwealth? There are several uses that could be proposed, but they would involve the creation of new programs or expansion of existing ones. However, there are two potential uses that, if implemented, would have reduced future costs:

Debt service savings

A lot of bonded indebtedness was authorized in recent years. The Department of the Treasury does not actually issue debt that has been authorized for a project until the agency anticipates using the cash. General fund appropriations could be substituted for debt for the balance of any remaining bond authorization for a project. The Secretary of Finance, in his capacity as chair of the Debt Capacity Advisory Committee, informed the Governor and clerks of the two houses of the General Assembly last fall that “there is currently [as of July 2023] $4.0 billion in previously authorized but yet to be issued tax-supported debt that is anticipated to be issued over the next four to five fiscal years.” Although Treasury has issued some more debt since then, it is reasonable to assume that there is still approximately $3 billion remaining in authorized, but unissued, tax-supported debt. Using that balance of $906 million to supplant that much unissued debt would have enabled the state to avoid debt service costs on that amount in the future and, with interest rates rising recently, the future savings could have been significant.

Unfunded VRS liability

The director of the Virginia Retirement Service reported to the Virginia House Appropriations Committee in January, 2023, that the retirement plan for state workers had an unfunded liability of $5 billion, while the unfunded liability retirement plan for teachers was approximately $11 billion. A one-time infusion of $906 billion would have significantly reduced future costs of maintaining the viability of the plans. For example, the report estimated that a $1 billion appropriation would result in savings of $2 billion over 20 years.

Unfortunately, rather than taking a long-term perspective, the General Assembly chose the equivalent of a temporary sugar high.


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172 responses to “A Case Against Further Tax Cuts”

  1. James Kiser Avatar
    James Kiser

    Cut spending starting with schools.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      You need to be more specific. Which level of schools? If K-12, where should the cuts be? Fewer teachers/larger classes? Fewer sports teams? Fewer counselors? If one is advocating cutting spending, one should specify what spending should be cut.

      1. DJRippert Avatar

        Inflation-Adjusted K-12 Education Spending Per Student Has Increased By 280 Percent Since 1960 in the US.

        Are our publicly educated citizens 2.8X better educated than they were in 1960?

        A 10% budgetary haircut would be good.

        Let the bloated administrative bureaucracies in public BigEd figure out what to cut.

        1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          I feel like my grandchildren are or will be much better educated upon graduation from high school than I was.

          1. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I feel like I would have been much better educated upon graduation from high school had my parents not moved to Virginia.

    2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead

      The problem with schools is not funding. It is policy from Richmond and the local school board. In Fauquier County, the schools consume one half of the county budget. All we got last year was sour grapes. Mind you every teacher got a raise. The 40 million dollar middle school rebuild and consolidation plan is now approaching 90 million dollars. SOL and NAEP scores are not delivering the significant investment made by citizens.

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        It may be an example of the chicken and the egg. Citizens tell the schools, “We are not going to give you any more funding until you show us better results.” Educators respond, “We’re doing the best with what we have.”

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          That’s the essence of the overall general argument in general.

          “We are not getting enough for our taxes already, and we’ll be damned if we give you anymore until we get more for what we are already paying for”

          works that way for most state govt services… from transportation to higher ed.

          1. killerhertz Avatar
            killerhertz

            Or you can look at the actual data and see school expenditures increase for the past few decades with no improvement.

          2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            “No improvement”? I graduated from high school several decades ago and I can see that high school graduates are much better prepared than I was.

          3. killerhertz Avatar
            killerhertz

            I disagree. Critical thinking skills are non-existence. This is especially true in the sciences. What new discoveries have there been that you can cite? The best entrepreneurs of the past couple decades have been dropouts… SAD

          4. DJRippert Avatar

            280% inflation adjusted increase in per-pupil spending since 1960 for public K-12 in the US.

            Inflation adjusted.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar

            If you’re not spending enough to start with – that’s what happens. You’re starving the system. They saw this with transportation and they took action to get more funding for it. Now, the part of the general sales tax devoted to transportation generates as much money as the gas tax does.

          6. killerhertz Avatar
            killerhertz

            Starving the system with $30k per pupil in some VA counties. Right.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar

            Isn’t it 10K?

          8. killerhertz Avatar
            killerhertz

            I think the national average is something like 18k.

          9. killerhertz Avatar
            killerhertz

            Yeah and Arlington is something like 25k and AFAIK these numbers never account for school facilities and construction and debts required to finance them – only the annual school budget amortized across enrollment.

          10. killerhertz Avatar
            killerhertz

            Yeah and Arlington is something like 25k and AFAIK these numbers never account for school facilities and construction and debts required to finance them – only the annual school budget amortized across enrollment.

          11. LarrytheG Avatar

            yes… and cost of living is involved…

          12. LarrytheG Avatar

            We keep adding things for them to do that they were not doing before.

            Imagine a voucher school trying to do ALL the things that public schools do these days.

          13. killerhertz Avatar
            killerhertz

            Why do schools have to do everything exactly?

          14. LarrytheG Avatar

            not sure your meaning? but every child has to be accorded the same opportunities as other kids.

            Would voucher schools provide ALL the things that public schools provide? Would they also have to accept autistic kids and others with special needs? Sports, band, foreign languages, etc or would they be very basic without all the bells and whistles?

          15. DJRippert Avatar

            Yes, that is the argument. Why pay more to an observably incompetent government?

          16. LarrytheG Avatar

            can’t be too incompetent, got a AAA credit rating…

        2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead

          I hear you Mr. Dick. What bothers me is that once in a not-too-distant memory, educators did better with what they had, and it was far less than current funding.

      2. DJRippert Avatar

        “The 40 million dollar middle school rebuild and consolidation plan is now approaching 90 million dollars.”

        Another example of government incompetence and another reason to cut taxes.

        “SOL and NAEP scores are not delivering the significant investment made by citizens.”

        Of course not! Government leaders NEVER take accountability for results. They just scream for more money, more money, more money.

        1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead

          The supervisors caved and wrote the check to the school board. They should have spent a fraction of the money on an overhaul of a/c and heat and kept the two old buildings going for another generation. Structurally speaking they are in great shape. Just old and not shiny new.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            New schools cost money.

            “The Stafford County School Board awarded a $139.3 million contract to Howard Shockey & Sons, Inc. to construct what is being called ‘High School 6’. The high school will be located between Route 17 and Truslow Road. The decision was made on Tuesday during a school board meeting.Sep 14, 2023”

            the real world….

            Highways cost the devil also

            so do new prisons…

            and new hospitals…

            it’s not 1950 anymore…

          2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            Better use of that money would be to turn Truslow road into a 4 lane highway. That is dangerous road. No shoulder. Just asphalt laid over an old turkey path.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar

          The spend more in Massachusetts and get better results…

          Virginia spends LESS than average and get less results.

          You’re all in on anti-govt !

          I can see how it might affects your voting!

  2. how_it_works Avatar
    how_it_works

    “yet there are no demands that large companies, such as big oil companies, for example, give refunds to their customers when they bring in record profits.”

    No, they give dividends to their shareholders.

    In the context of government, who would be analogous to the shareholders of a large company?

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      And I would view the coming rebates, third in five years, as similar to such dividends. Three in five years is not a sign the state is starving. Of course in this case one share and one thousand shares gets you the same dividend.

    2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Rather than being seen as shareholders, citizens, in this analogy, could be viewed as customers, consumers of state services. This is why I don’t like the comparison of government to business; the analogy breaks down almost immediately.

      Furthermore, not all companies give dividends.

    3. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      And I would view the coming rebates, third in five years, as similar to such dividends. Three in five years is not a sign the state is starving. Of course in this case one share and one thousand shares gets you the same dividend.

    4. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Rather than being seen as shareholders, citizens, in this analogy, could be viewed as customers, consumers of state services. This is why I don’t like the comparison of government to business; the analogy breaks down almost immediately.

      Furthermore, not all companies give dividends.

      1. how_it_works Avatar
        how_it_works

        But then you have things like “cooperatives”, where the customer is also a shareholder.

        If you’re going to compare government to business, the best comparison is probably to a “cooperative”.

        Anyone who gets an electric bill from a cooperative knows that they return excess profits to their customers.

        1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          I don’t think comparing government to business is an apt comparison. The point I was trying to make was that those folks who do make that comparison only make it in those areas that suit them.

          1. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I think it is. I pay taxes, I expect services in return. Just like when I patronize a business, I expect a good or service for the money I pay to them.

            Note: I do not consider keeping Bubba and all of his relatives on the state payroll a service.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            Do you want to pay taxes for services that others need that you do not?

            Like Medicaid.

            or K-12

            or mental health/opioids

            social services.. help for housing, utilities, etc?

          3. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            No, but you need to keep Bubba on the payroll to maintain the services he provides, such as guarding inmates in prisons, fixing the potholes in roads, staffing state parks, inspecting restaurants, etc.

          4. But as the song says:

            Well, God, if you’re 5-foot-3 and you’re 300 pounds / Taxes ought not to pay for your bags of fudge rounds

            Read More: The Lyrics to Oliver Anthony’s ‘Rich Men North of Richmond’ | https://tasteofcountry.com/oliver-anthony-rich-men-north-of-richmond-lyrics/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral

          5. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Punching down at the poor and obese?

          6. DJRippert Avatar

            What is a “fudge round”?

          7. Matt Adams Avatar

            I concur with their #1, however that page is a lesson in diabetes.

          8. I had no idea Little Debbie makes that many different kinds of snack cakes.

          9. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            Poor mans Moon Pie.

          10. You aren’t alone. I didn’t know what they were until I looked it up.

      2. Except that the constitution says that the gov’t works for We The People not, as you claim, the other way around. Gov’t has to justify its requests; we don’t have to justify our limits on those requests.

      3. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Actually, I view we citizens as neither shareholders nor customers. We are assets and liabilities. We are the product and the waste of the society we are building.

        Government provides services and assurances. We pay taxes for the services we use, and for the assurances that the services we don’t use, or may never use, are there in the event we may need them.

      4. Except that the constitution says that the gov’t works for We The People not, as you claim, the other way around. Gov’t has to justify its requests; we don’t have to justify our limits on those requests.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          But we have made the requests through our representatives, and we have used the services resulting from those requests. The administrative portion of the government is just the collection agency.

          1. Now the people are staying stop.

          2. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Not enough of them

          3. LarrytheG Avatar

            there’s confusion here. “We the people” don’t decide on an individual basis what the budget should be or not for what things or not. “we the people” hold elected officials accountable at elections – as
            an electorate.

            The idea that each one of us has a right to demand certain spending or certain cuts because govt “works us for” is getting way off track from the actual way the founding fathers set things up.

          4. If we are supposed to be quiet between elections, why does BLM riot to express outrage? Are liberals allowed to sound off, but conservatives must be silent?

          5. LarrytheG Avatar

            elections don’t seem to fix some of the problems, like continuing murders by some police. Some folks get riled up about that and they’re not even affiliated with BLM.. just ordinary folks tired
            of the police behaviors.

          6. “elections don’t seem to fix some of the problems” – sounds like – I’m free to complain if I don’t get my way. Have you thought that those who are demanding cuts don’t feel that the election fixed their problems? If they feel that way, they are justified, right? So why are you complaining?

          7. LarrytheG Avatar

            police murdering folks is a different kind of issue than “cuts”. The problem with the budget is that 3/4 of it is either Defense or Health Care. You can’t cut enough of it to balance the budget without cutting health care. Good luck on that… as they say.. you mess with Medicare and elections will have consequences…. see… it does work! It’s a joke when the “cut the budget” folk do their talk.. unless they are willing to cut Defense and Medicare, it’s a no go.

          8. In what way is “police murdering folks is a different kind of issue than “cuts””? Doesn’t the legislature deal with murder, set standards for police conduct, define criminal conduct, etc? Your argument sounds like rationalization, not logic.

          9. LarrytheG Avatar

            Oh they do set standards but some police still go rogue on local levels despite the law…
            just like regular murderers… right? equating murder with budget issues is not logical at all.

          10. I never equated murder with budget issues. You did that when you mischaracterized my argument. Your argument is that BLM was justified to riot between elections because cops killing blacks (a false charge) was not a problem handled by the elected bodies. I merely pointed out that the legislature, an elected body, does handle both cuts and police standards, making your argument that cuts could not be discussed between voting sessions a false one.

          11. LarrytheG Avatar

            “In what way is “police murdering folks is a different kind of issue than “cuts””? ”

            The legislatures apparently can’t stop rogue police even with laws… eh?

            No problem what-so-ever discussing budget cuts ANYTIME but you totally don’t understand or want to that you get one vote and that does not entitle you to get your way about the budget. Budget “cuts” these days is essentially virtue signaling by those who advocate the cuts but won’t touch Defense or health care which is 75% of the budget.

            We want defense and medical care but don’t want to pay for it!

          12. No, I get one vote, but I have an unlimited right to complain. About anything at any time, so long as I do it peacefully. It’s called free speech. If you don’t believe and accept that, you don’t understand the first thing about our system. The BLM riots were the violation of the governing process, not complaints about the size of gov’t. Quit twisting reality to fit your fantasy.

          13. LarrytheG Avatar

            You do for sure I agree (and if said or implied otherwise, was wrong) . It’s just that is where your direct role ends and elected governance takes over and if you are in the minority, you may not like the legislative outcomes. That’s the way the country was set up from national down to local. We have elections and after we have legislation and governance but those that were elected and if they weren’t the guys you wanted, you may not like what they do.

            BLM riots WERE a “violation” yes, but when they occur in response to rogue cop killings that continue, they cannot be viewed in isolation as unprovoked and unrelated to the killings.

            If local police will not change how they interact with those they “serve and protect”, bad stuff
            will happen and like any other continuing abuse, need to be reined in if we really don’t like unrest
            and rioting when it happens again and again. And really, when you get right down to it. the many cop killings that have continued have not resulted in riots at all, just protests and lawsuits.

        2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          And the people, through their representatives, make requests that go beyond the ability of government to provide them. Just go to the Legislative Information System and under “state budget”, look at all the budget amendments proposed by members of the General Assembly.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            Yes. “We want more folks kept in prison but don’t ask me for more money for guards or prisons”… etc, etc..

          2. DJRippert Avatar

            Nice try. The move to eliminate or dramatically reduce cash bond, the decision to not prosecute certain classes of criminal activity, etc have been ongoing for years.

            Where is the refund of the taxes formerly paid to hold people who could not make cash bond in jail?

            Where is the refund of the taxes once paid to enforce marijuana laws that are no longer enforced?

            Government NEVER shrinks.

            Starve the beast.

            I’m looking forward to the coming federal government shutdown.

          3. Until the progressive era, when it became a necessary tool to enact the progressive agenda, the tyranny of the majority was always defined as a problem of democracy, not a feature. Redefining it doesn’t change its inherently immoral nature. As Lincoln said, the dog has 4 legs.

      5. “Furthermore, not all companies give dividends.”

        Investors pick stocks with that in mind. One advantage to growth vs income stocks is the delay and potential reduction of tax liability. I assume you understand the math for that?

        Citizens are both customers and owners. The best model of that might be credit unions. They get enough from fees and loans to cover costs, but don’t try to soak their customer/owners.

      6. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Actually, I view we citizens as neither shareholders nor customers. We are assets and liabilities. We are the product and the waste of the society we are building.

        Government provides services and assurances. We pay taxes for the services we use, and for the assurances that the services we don’t use, or may never use, are there in the event we may need them.

      7. how_it_works Avatar
        how_it_works

        “Furthermore, not all companies give dividends.”

        Generally, the longer the company has been around, the more likely it is to pay dividends. Most of the big oil companies pay dividends.

    5. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Lobbyists?

    6. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
      energyNOW_Fan

      Not to mention reinvesting profits into mega-expensive future energy projects, such as drilling or carbon capture etc, many of these projects can fail for unexpected reasons such as global politics, and dry holes.

    7. DJRippert Avatar

      The taxpayers, in proportion to what they paid.

  3. vicnicholls Avatar
    vicnicholls

    WHAT? They’re taking in TOO much taxes. Stop spending on ANY programs that are not strictly academic education. Right after that certain sports can be played. Everything else, is NOT within their mission of education.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Why would you allow “certain” sports? They are not strictly academic education. So, I take it, you would eliminate all counselors, psychologists, and nurses. Do art and band classes fall under your definition of “academic education”? What are some examples of the programs you would eliminate?

    2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead

      There are enough citizens who value sports, fine arts, mental health, etc to make a school board meeting a living night of hell if there was threat to cut them. Here in Fauquier every middle school and high school has an agricultural teaching position. Why? Because that is the way it has been since the 1930s. Even though agriculture has changed from cash crops, dairy, and cattle to viticulture and farm/table styles, there is enough demand to fund the positions. Not saying you are wrong, just the reality of local school board funding politics.

    3. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Why would you allow “certain” sports? They are not strictly academic education. So, I take it, you would eliminate all counselors, psychologists, and nurses. Do art and band classes fall under your definition of “academic education”? What are some examples of the programs you would eliminate? It is easy to say “cut spending”. It is a lot harder to say what specific spending to cut.

      1. vicnicholls Avatar
        vicnicholls

        Sports that are single sex only. I would eliminate counselors, psychs. Nurses, only to be there for emergencies, not to hand out Tylenol. Art and music are college degreed fields. Why would you bring them up?

        1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          I bring up art and music because high schools offer courses in those areas.

          Most sports are single sex. If you advocate only programs that are strictly academic, why should a school fund boys’ football, girls’ softball, girls’ basketball, boys’ swimming, etc.?

          By the way, many school divisions prohibit students from bringing any medications to school, even off the shelf meds. So, if a girl is having severe menstrual cramps, she needs to go the the nurse to get Tylenol or ibuprofen. Under your rules, she would be out of luck.

          1. With vouchers, it would be possible to send your children to a school that spends it’s money according to your priorities.

            I think sports should be largely self funding with sharing between boys and girls sports due to the greater income potential for boys sports like football.

          2. DJRippert Avatar

            “By the way, many school divisions prohibit students from bringing any medications to school, even off the shelf meds.”

            Stop making such stupid prohibitions and fire the school nurses. Nurses are in short supply throughout society. They’ll find other employers.

            See how easy that was?

          3. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            I agree.

      2. DJRippert Avatar

        Cut all sports save those sports which can raise enough money through ticket sales and related revenues (like advertising in programs) to pay their own way.

        See how easy that was?

        1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          OK. I have a feeling that almost all sports, including football, would be eliminated in Virginia high schools. I doubt if most parents would be in favor of that.

          1. Think of the after-school kid-sitting programs that would be cut; those “latch-key” children turned loose to misbehave before mom or dad gets home. We don’t need to pay the schools to entertain them with games, unless, that is, they can entertain enough paying adults to make the games profitable for the school’s balance sheet and the glorification of its principal. Forget about whether the less-talented kids actually like their sports or are socialized through playing them. Forget about the health benefits. The existence of home-schooling proves we don’t need sports (or “soccer moms” either) — right?

  4. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    I started following the state budget process under Governor Robb. In 40 years I have never attended a session where the people involved in those areas didn’t offer similar claims of underfunding. As an agency manager myself I worked to raise our budget, mainly for staff pay. It is a cat chasing its tail. If they stood at the podium and said, thanks, that’s enough, the room would all have coronaries….

    As to VRS, it is strong right now, the diet COLA will protect it (not that I like that), and if we can get rid of Biden perhaps we can reverse the current situation where investment returns are too low and inflation too high.

    A longer, detail response will have to wait. The ten years of budget cuts claim at the opening is laughable. Laughable. Ten years ago the General Fund was about $16.7B. The Non-GF side of the budget has grown even faster.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      I was involved in those years in which agencies had to submit budget cuts to DPB for inclusion in the Governor’s budget. Ask the people at DOC whose positions were eliminated because of those cuts. For example, there was one guy who was on his honeymoon when he learned that his position had been eliminated. On another occasion, a woman called me in tears about the correctional facility in which her husband was employed being shut down because of the cuts.

      1. how_it_works Avatar
        how_it_works

        Is the Virginia government a jobs program?

        1. Stephen Haner Avatar
          Stephen Haner

          More than that. A guaranteed job for life program. Individual agencies, departments, functions can be reduced or reorganized without it meaning state government is shrinking. The previous actual GF decline before this year’s tax cuts was 2013.

          1. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            This differs from those “corrupt” Northern states exactly how?

          2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            Not any more.

          3. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Like SCOTUS?

          4. killerhertz Avatar
            killerhertz

            This is one of the inherent flaws of a representative democracy. Boomer-cons need to wake up and realize that you can’t shrink such a government or return to the basics of “the Constitution”.

        2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          My point is that there were actual budget reductions in the recent past. My reference to a decade of shortfalls was relevant.

          Here is the plan to deal with the budget shortall in 2015. https://dpb.virginia.gov/forms/20141015-1/Item471_10_2015_SavingsPlan.pdf

          1. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Oh, so the tearjerker stories of jobs lost were just an example of budget reductions?

          2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            Steve implied that there were not budget reductions. I gave examples of budget reductions.

          3. Stephen Haner Avatar
            Stephen Haner

            A shortfall means the revenue estimates were off. You are pointing to the classic “Washington Cut” where spending fails to grow as much as expected or desired, but still grows.

          4. Stephen Haner Avatar
            Stephen Haner

            A shortfall means the revenue estimates were off. You are pointing to the classic “Washington Cut” where spending fails to grow as much as expected or desired, but still grows.

      2. How is the loss of a gov’t job from a budget cut any more painful than the loss of a job in coal or oil because of the Biden war on fossil fuels? Are the gov’t workers too stupid to learn to write code?

        1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          A lost job is painful no matter where it happens. As for the lost jobs in coal, they occurred primarily the coal fields played out and because coal became noncompetitive with natural gas. Fossil fuel production has increased, although jobs have decreased. On the other hand, jobs in renewable industry have increased considerably. https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/28/politics/solar-wind-fossil-fuel-jobs-report-climate/index.html

          1. Actually, the jobs lost in the coal fields were because Obama kept his campaign promise to bankrupt the coal industry. ”

            “So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can; it’s just that it will bankrupt them, because they’re going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that’s being emitted,” Obama said during a 2008 interview with the SF Chronicle. A 2015 study found the coal industry lost 50,000 jobs from 2008 to 2012 during Obama’s first term. During Obama’s second term, the industry employment in coal mining has fallen by another 33,300 jobs.

            My reference to learning to code was deliberate. In Dec 2019 candidate Biden addressed the issue:

            During a rally yesterday, Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden spoke to a crowd in Derry, N.H., a town
            that many miners call home. He acknowledged the economic setbacks and job insecurity that coal miners face these days, and gave them some advice: learn to code.
            According to Dave Weigel of the Washington Post, Biden said, “Anybody who can go down 3,000 feet in a mine can sure as
            hell learn to program as well… Anybody who can throw coal into a furnace can learn how to program, for God’s sake!”
            According to Weigel, the comment was met with silence from the audience.

            My point was to call attention to, and remind us of, the hypocrisy of the Democrat party, which styles itself as a champion of the working man, but throws him to the wolves when it suits their goals.

            The sanctimony of Biden’s remark is exceeded only by its stupidity.

            As for the gov’t employees who lost their jobs, it’s a tough break. I survived it several times during my working career, and always managed to come out better in the end. Have faith in yourself and keep trying.

            .

        2. how_it_works Avatar
          how_it_works

          “Are the gov’t workers too stupid to learn to write code?”

          Years ago I dealt with one from the Virginia State Police who was some sort of “IT guy” who didn’t know that passwords on Windows XP are case-sensitive.

          That was part of a much larger, much more messed-up situation potentially involving spoilation of evidence due to the actions of the VSP. I can’t go into more details than that, not here anyway. All I’m gonna say is that someone at the VSP needs to pay more attention to minor details like what address a hard drive is being sent to.

        3. how_it_works Avatar
          how_it_works

          “Are the gov’t workers too stupid to learn to write code?”

          Years ago I dealt with one from the Virginia State Police who was some sort of “IT guy” who didn’t know that passwords on Windows XP are case-sensitive.

          That was part of a much larger, much more messed-up situation potentially involving spoilation of evidence due to the actions of the VSP. I can’t go into more details than that, not here anyway. All I’m gonna say is that someone at the VSP needs to pay more attention to minor details like what address a hard drive is being sent to.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            This is why Virginia is trying to have a real IT company in charge of IT rather than all these little SILOs who have folks with little or no training pretending to be IT.

          2. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I wish them luck.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar

            had that going on in the Navy also. Major fighting over NMCI.

          4. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I’m all too aware of NMCI.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar

            oops! The basic issue is that every single unique piece of hardware and software had potential security flaws especially is not kept updated. The more different kinds you have, the bigger the risk. Ransomware running amok in organizations that don’t do IT “right” and that includes full backups on a daily even hourly basis. Too many yahoos that either are ignorant of the risk or don’t care.

          6. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            When I worked on a DoD contract, I was responsible for making sure that the systems for the application were STIGd and patched.

            The only thing NMCI did was to provide the slow-as-molasses-in-January VPN used to access those systems.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar

            I thought they standardized systems hardware and software and you had to choose from the ones on the list and could not roll your own?

            These days, you get malware loose on one machine and it gets on the network and you’re toast.

          8. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            This was a specialized application custom written for DoD. We also had Oracle DBAs and developers to manage and maintain it. I assume it was too specialized for NMCI to provide it, or out of the scope of the NMCI contract.

          9. LarrytheG Avatar

            that was the standard excuse.. “we got special software and mission”. The fact that they did not keep it patched… and maintained…. and still wanted to connect to the network… was always
            the issue… Do they require standards for patching and the like? DO they require audits and software like Tripwire?

          10. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Yes, they sent an auditor to make sure all the STIGs were applied. They also required the Microsoft Windows patches to be applied monthly.

          11. LarrytheG Avatar

            They’ve moved from standard configs to standards for maintenance and updates! What happens if they find you are not doing the STIGs and patches? Do they shut off network access?

          12. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I don’t know, it was never a problem for us, we kept up to date on that stuff!

          13. LarrytheG Avatar

            In my time… there were SILOS all over the place and each one made the argument that
            they had a unique mission with special needs… they’d try to get the waivers…but they
            had no real intention of maintaining the security of the configs… unless NMCI and Network Security got in their face about it. Even then, they did not take backups serious.. and IT, in general, was
            considered an “overhead” issue that did not have a paying sponsor. Management were total
            yahoos on it.

          14. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I was a contractor for DoD and I’m 99.99% sure that maintaining the security of the application hosting environment was part of that contract.

          15. LarrytheG Avatar

            It is. But there are two environments. The contractor facility and the govt facility and if you
            are a contractor working IT at a govt facility.. it’s the govt managers that decide IT security
            policy and, in fact, they can and do task contractors to do things that they could not do
            with govt employees… to evade network security policy. The thing is, there are a LOT of
            foreign actors these days whose job is to find the holes in DOD assets and exploit them.
            If they get in to one computer , they can then often go through the network to the other
            computers… bad karma…

          16. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I have never seen that and I would expect that any contractor worth their salt would NOT play along with violating security policy even if directed to by a government manager, if only because the government manager WILL blame the government contractor for it if SHTF.

            There may be EXCEPTIONS to a security policy, but these HAVE to be documented and approved with justification.

          17. LarrytheG Avatar

            Oh the contractor is between a rock and a hard place. If he doesn’t do the deed.. the COTAR
            will ask for a replacement or go look for another contractor , etc. Did happen. Totally undercuts the govt IT folks trying to conform to policy.

          18. LarrytheG Avatar

            We’d get audited by network security where they’d send a summary of our equipment and the current status of the systems with regard to updates and security patches.

            it was always a battle trying to convince our folks to do the job right but by the time the next audit was done, we would be goats again.

            scofflaws and yahoos…

    2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Regarding VRS, you ignore my point that infusing a chunk of money now would reduce the unfunded liability that will need to be covered at some point and save the state millions over the long term.

      1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead

        You guys know the deal with VRS. It always is the can kicked down the road until a crisis or election is at stake. Both parties have come to the rescue over the years in my observation.

        1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          I am proposing that we kick the can down the road a little bit less often.

          1. I’m for that, with respect to VRS and in all areas.

            I was not in favor of borrowing from VRS.

            Spending Social Security surplus (or more accurately lending it to the federal government) is how we got ourselves in our current fix nationally.

          2. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            Too noisy. Pick it up and carry it down the road.

            Or, attach it to the chicken and let those on the other side of the road handle it.

          3. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            Better chance that VRS will be raided again as a back up rainy day fund for the General Assembly.

    3. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      WWRRD? Hint:RR = Ronald Reagan

    4. DJRippert Avatar

      Laughable is right. Do the “hidden taxes” imposed by regulation count? Like putting a “green energy subsidy charge” on most people’s electric bill to help poor people afford what the politicians know will be skyrocketing electricity costs? Or the public university leadership which charges some students far more than it costs to educate them so they can subsidize other students? Who elected those people?

  5. LarrytheG Avatar

    How many schools would provide special education if it were not for the law requiring it which in turn results in tax increases to pay for it?

    How many localities would fund Social Services if it were not for the law that requires them to and in turn, tax to pay for it?

    1. Are you suggesting we need to enshrine social services in our constitutions (because the States won’t fund them unless the state constitution or Congress makes them do so, and because Congress won’t do so unless the Constitution makes it do so)?

      Oh, I forgot, that’s the way it works already.

  6. LarrytheG Avatar

    So what is better? Giving back rebates but waiting each year to see what the revenue forecast will be…

    OR

    Cut taxes to the bone with no buffer and from year to year see if revenues continue to generate enough to fund and if they do not, increase taxes to make up for the shortfall?

    is there a 3rd option?

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Run the whole thing on credit and present the bill at the end of the next cycle… just like the households in the State.

      SURPRISE!!

      1. Stephen Haner Avatar
        Stephen Haner

        We haven’t sunk that low in Virginia. Still a cash basis here. I’ve never advocating cutting taxes “to the bone” and my top priority remains indexing, something that only slow builds as a revenue reduction. A tax restructuring that really didn’t give me personally much benefit, but lowered the burden on the middle class folks, would be fine with me. Dick’s right that $400 is a rounding error in my annual spend. But for many it is two or three weeks of groceries.

        But Dick’s argument for “mo’ money” is a song I’ve tuned out long ago….

        1. Matt Adams Avatar

          Also illustrating the adage that once Government passes a tax they aren’t very likely to give up that new source of money, regardless of need.

          1. DJRippert Avatar

            Not just taxes. The politicians promised that the tolls on the Dulles Toll Road would only exist until the construction costs for the road were paid off.

            That happened decades ago.

            The tolls? Still in place.

            NEVER trust a politician.

        2. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          $400 is a bar bill, or a 10 minute excursion through West Marine if I don’t feel like waiting for delivery from Defender.

          But you just nailed one thing, the burden is disproportionately on the middle income, but that’s because their only weapon is their vote, and it’s easy to take that from them for they have neither the time nor the inclination to look past the buzzwords like “woke” or “fascism”. Frankly, maybe that is for the best because they haven’t the capacity to even understand beyond the sixth grade level.

  7. Paying down long-term debt and reducing unfunded liabilities is a worthy use of surplus tax funds. The federal government is headed for a fiscal reckoning. Virginia needs to bullet-proof its balance sheet to survive the inevitable storm.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Finally, another person who actually engages with the arguments I put forth.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Yes. And THE reason we have surplus in Virginia is BECAUSE of the Fed spending more than they take in. It’s basically stimulus paid for with debt!

        The Feds do not collect enough tax money to pay for DOD and domestic health care. The rest of it in terms of actual big money is a gnat on the butt of a dog!

        You could make draconian cuts on the rest of the Federal Agencies and hardly touch the deficit.

        https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9cc534f55d53d6191bab5d074993f72f10b3b539339cbf1dcbec36d0faf56df8.jpg

        https://www.cbpp.org/research/federal-budget/where-do-our-federal-tax-dollars-go

        We simply don’t collect enough tax to pay for it.

  8. DJRippert Avatar

    “It is somewhat curious that these are the folks who often demand that government be run like a business, yet there are no demands that large companies, such as big oil companies, for example, give refunds to their customers when they bring in record profits.”

    If there were several alternative governments from which one could choose to pay taxes, you might have a point.

    If the owners of government (i.e. citizens) held their ownership interest in proportion to what they paid (as shareholders do), you might have a point.

    If paying taxes were optional, you might have a point.

    I am a taxpayer in Virginia. I am not a customer of the government in Virginia. Customers have choices, taxpayers do not. I am a victim of the bloated, ineffective, and largely incompetent government in Richmond. That government has steadily increased spending by more than inflation + population growth with nothing positive to show for that increased spending. K-12 education is but one example of governmental failure.

    If the government of Virginia were really a stockholder owned corporation I would mortgage my house to raise funds to short it.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      You make Virginia sound like a third-world country. In fact, Virginia students scored in the top 10 in the latest NAEP 8th Grade math test (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education/prek-12/naep-math-scores)
      and one national organization ranked Virginia’s schools as fourth best in the nation
      (https://www.thecentersquare.com/virginia/report-virginia-has-4th-best-public-schools-in-the-country/article_caf7af08-0d07-11ed-aad0-53a4b31425be.html
      ) So, it would seem that Virginians are
      indeed getting a decent return on their money.

    2. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
      energyNOW_Fan

      …or if there were free-market to choose electricity (like Pennsylvania). The Virginia Way is a bit taking advantage of those stuck here due to government jobs etc. as a captive market

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        I guess you noticed no one has challenged my premise that Virginia is not a high-tax state. The comments so far have mostly been from people who dislike taxes on principle.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          except for maybe DJRippert who thinks Va pretty much sucks across the board… even if low
          taxes, does not get his money’s worth! He has a place over on the Eastern Shore of MD I think,

          1. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            I happen to agree with DJ about that.

            But I don’t have any family ties to Virginia that would make me think otherwise!

            I lived in Elmhurst, IL prior to moving to Manassas, VA (not by choice).

            If you know anything about those two places, you know that was a DOWNGRADE, made worse by the higher cost of living in Manassas. (What are you paying for, EZ access to 6-figure government jobs you can never be fired from? Well, not THAT EZ, given the 2-hour commute!)

          2. LarrytheG Avatar

            What was good at Elmhurst? Looks to be a suburb of Chicago. You’ve never driven the urban roads around Chicago? ugh!

          3. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            One current difference between the places is that Elmhurst has 6% of school students on free and reduced price lunches, while Manassas is around 45% and Prince William County is around 30%.

            I can draw some conclusions about that.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar

            What’s the industry there?

          5. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Lots of light and heavy industrial, corporate HQ, transportation, it’s quite diverse. There’s still quite a bit of manufacturing in the area, too.

            Not the one-trick pony that NoVA is with it’s dependence on the Fed.

          6. LarrytheG Avatar

            sounds like you’re going back……..

          7. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            Probably not there, but someplace like it. I’m honestly sick of Federal IT work. Hopefully that won’t be a blight on my resume when I try to find a private-sector IT job.

          8. LarrytheG Avatar

            NoVa Dc Md is somewhat unique and not in a good way because it’s HQ for the Fed govt and it’s got all these high grades that had guaranteed career tenure and that’s way different than most career jobs. IT is not a job that will usually get you into management except as IT head and even then, others without IT bonifides will move laterally into those slots and folks below them have to
            hold it all together.

          9. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            That’s pretty much what I see. At least with government contract IT work, you won’t get stuck in a rut. That rut WILL come to an end eventually and you’ll have to find another job. In the meantime, it’s like patching holes in the Titantic.

          10. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            The schools. The infrastructure. The parks. The street lighting. Hell, even the houses there are built better.

            Oh, and the culture is a lot better, too. Manassas has a real trashy element to it, always has.

            One of the nice thing about the suburban roads around Chicago is they’re on a grid pattern, so there’s no 10-mile detour to get around a closed road like there is around here.

          11. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            So? What does that have to do with anything that I mentioned?

          12. LarrytheG Avatar

            not usually a sign of a fiscally responsible state… Virginia is – AAA

          13. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            In Illinois the locality does a lot more than the state. In that case…

            https://patch.com/illinois/elmhurst/city-elmhurst-keeps-aaa-bond-rating-seventh-straight-year

          14. LarrytheG Avatar

            outstanding!
            ” As of January 2022, 49 counties and 31 cities across the nation have a AAA bond rating from all three major rating agencies – Moody’s, Fitch Ratings and Standard & Poor’s.”

          15. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            It is!

          16. how_it_works Avatar
            how_it_works

            In fact, I’d go so far as to say you could take two identical people, have one grow up in Elmhurst and one in Manassas, the one that grew up in Elmhurst WILL have the better outcome.

        2. “I guess you noticed no one has challenged my premise that Virginia is not a high-tax state.”

          That’s like saying that the 10th largest mass killer is better than the largest mass killer. It sounds good but tells us nothing. Those who question taxes are inherently morally superior to those who demand taxes to pay for their pet projects or to enrich themselves and their friends.

  9. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    There is a simple solution. Contract the Swiss to do it for us. They apparently know what they’re doing.
    https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/rankings/economically-stable

    1. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      There are things that run like a Swiss watch…and then there are things that run like a Virginia government agency.

  10. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
    energyNOW_Fan

    The bottom line is we need to try to make Virginia a good quality state, including cost-effectiveness. The perceived fear is that we rely so much on Fed gov’t spending (and our favorable location close to DC) that we ignore the need to be competitive as a state.

    1. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      I’ve long thought that Virginia, without the Federal government, would be about as viable as Mississippi, if not worse.

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