Bacon's Rebellion

Democracy Thrives in Sunlight

Virginia Ratifies!

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Dick Hall-Sizemore
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by Dick Hall-Sizemore

On this date, 233 years ago, June 25, 1788, Virginia ratified the United States Constitution.

The stakes could not have been higher. Ratification by nine states was required for the Constitution to go into effect. When the delegates to the ratifying convention began their deliberations on June 2, they knew that eight states had ratified the Constitution. Being the largest state, the actions of Virginia would likely influence the remaining holdouts: New Hampshire, New York, North Carolina, and Rhode Island. As it turned out, New Hampshire ratified the Constitution four days before Virginia on June 21, thus making it the state that provided the ninth, decisive vote. However, the delegates in Richmond could not have known that. And, without Virginia’s ratification, the new nation would have likely been doomed.

Patrick Henry

Ratification was not a foregone conclusion.  The delegates debated fiercely for three weeks. The final vote was 89-79 in favor of ratification, but the outcome was uncertain until close to the conclusion of the voting. Leading the opposition Patrick Henry was the redoubtable Patrick Henry. George Mason was also one of the leaders of the opposition. In charge of the forces urging ratification was James Madison, the one person most responsible for the provisions of the new Constitution. Backing him up were Edmund Randolph, Henry Lee, George Nicholas, and John Marshall.

James Madison

I am aware of the significance of the date because I am reading Ralph Ketcham’s excellent biography of Madison, titled simply, James Madison. I wish that I had read it many years ago.

In the course of my reading, I came across this passage from a speech Madison made to the convention on June 20, 1788. Make of it what you will.

“I go on this great republican principle, that the people will have virtue and intelligence to select men of virtue and wisdom. Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation.”

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25 responses to “Virginia Ratifies!”

  1. David Avatar
    David

    Timely and profound, I feel compelled to read that book.

  2. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    And thus, the fighting began…
    https://docs-of-freedom.s3.amazonaws.com/uploads/image/attachment/171/Andrew_Jackson_King_Andrew.JPG

  3. WayneS Avatar
    WayneS

    It’s not exactly on point, but my favorite James Madison quote is from Federalist No. 62:

    “It will be of little avail to the people, that the laws are made by men of their own choice, if the laws be so voluminous that they cannot be read, or so incoherent that they cannot be understood; if they be repealed or revised before they are promulgated, or undergo such incessant changes that no man, who knows what the law is to-day, can guess what it will be tomorrow.”

    Followed by this, from Federalist No. 10:

    “[D]emocracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have, in general, been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths.” –James Madison, Federalist No. 10

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Humorous, in that there is no exact count of federal laws. At best, there are estimates.

    2. emjak Avatar
      emjak

      It reminds me of a passage from Abraham Lincoln’s 1838 speech to the Young Men’s Lyceum of Springfield, Illinois: “If destruction be our lot, we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen, we must live through all time or die by suicide.”

      Sadly, these days we seem determined to flirt with a variety of different ways to tempt national suicide.

    3. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      I am a fan of his comment in Federalist 51: “If men were angels, no government would be necessary.”

  4. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    The Virginia Convention has an interesting cast of characters. They represented the largest, most populous, and wealthiest state. Some came from far places such as Kentucky, Wheeling, and so on. The opposition or Anti Federalists would not give an inch unless Virginia demanded adding a Declaration of Rights prior to the Constitution’s ratification. Many who voted no were former officers of the Continental Army and they feared the centralized power of the Constitution. Those who voted no:
    Patrick Henry
    George Mason
    James Monroe (surprise break from ally and proponent James Madison)
    William Grayson (hero of the Battle of Monmouth)
    Theodorick Bland (powerful leader of the Bland clan)
    John Tyler Sr. (father of President Tyler)
    Ben Harrison V (father of Pres. WH Harrison and great grandfather of
    Pres B. Harrison
    George Clay (first cousin of Henry Clay)
    John Guerrant (my 6th great grandfather)

    Mr. Dick Halifax voted NO!
    Issac Coles of Coles Ferry
    George Carrington father of South Boston

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Yes, I realize that the delegates from my home county voted no. But, so did most of the delegates from rural areas and the “west” .

      According to Ketcham, the opposition was not necessarily rooted in the demand for a bill of rights. Madison had already committed to that during his campaign to be elected a delegate to the convention. Rather, the objection was to the “consolidating” tendencies of the Constitution and the fear that it would foster tyranny.

      One of the many surprising things I have learned is the key role played by the delegates from that part of Virginia that is now West Virginia. Very important to them was having access to the Mississippi River and the fear that Spain would would cut off their access. Madison was able to persuade them that a strong national government would be in the best position to protect their interests in regard to access to the Mississippi.

  5. Steve Gillispie Avatar
    Steve Gillispie

    Really interesting comments with the usual exception. What was the average age of the delegates?

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      I could not find any reference to the average age. George Mason, at 63, was probably among the oldest and James Monroe, 30, was likely one of the youngest.

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      That’s okay, I’ve got him blocked.

  6. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    I am sure they were like… “Don’t worry we can bail on this thing anytime we want…” Right…??

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      9th?! Late to the party… as usual.

  7. Steve Gillispie Avatar
    Steve Gillispie

    Didn’t he also see a direct correlation between those with the most “skin in the game,” as it were, and the likelihood of wise and intelligent selections?

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      By “skin” do you mean those with a fully vested interest or those only 3/5 vested?

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        “Nancy Naive Steve Gillispie • 43 minutes ago • edited
        By “skin” do you mean those with a fully vested interest or those only 3/5 vested?”

        Could you be anymore uneducated on the 3/5th compromise?

  8. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Madison update from Fed 62

    “The internal internet effects of a mutable policy are still more calamitous.”

  9. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    The “YES” votes at the Virginia Convention include some notable figures.
    James Madison
    Light Horse Harry Lee (Marse Robert’s father)
    George Wythe (father of American Law)
    Burwell Bassett (Martha Washington’s brother)
    Bushrod Washington (Supreme Court Judge nephew of George inherited Mt. Vernon)
    John Marshall

    Notable absence: Jefferson. Busy. Minister to France. He would have been useless at this point in his life. Failed governor. Grieving over his deceased wife. Complete state of melancholy. Paris was the only cure. Voted twice really. TJ had a steady correspondence with Monroe and Madison during this time. A silent vote by influence and mail. A no vote thru Monroe and a yes vote thru Madison.

    The key man to ratification was Edmund Randolph. He was the chairman of the convention and therefore controlled the agenda and selected who could speak in discussion.

    Henry and Mason felt they had Randolph as a supporter and ally. Betrayal! Randolph switches teams! He comes out in favor of the Constitution. Believed that Virginia was taking too long to make up it’s mind. Feared what would happen to Virginia if left out of the new national government. United enough support by steering a resolution on the next day, June 26th. That resolution proposed adding a “Declaration of Rights” at the first meeting of the newly elected Congress.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Edmund_Randolph_%281753-1813%29_by_an_unidentified_artist.png

    1. Matt Adams Avatar
      Matt Adams

      Also TJ’s 2nd Cousin.

      1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead

        The interplay of kinship amongst the 170 convention members can twist your mind into a knot!

    2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      I do not like disagreeing with you, but Edmund Pendleton was the presiding officer of the ratifying convention. Ketcham describes how he shut down Patrick Henry at the very beginning when Henry challenged the legitimacy of the federal Constitutional Convention. However, Randolph indeed was a vital figure. He had headed the Virginia delegation to the Constitutional Convention, but had refused to sign the final document. He was governor in 1788 and well-respected. One of Madison’s greatest tasks was to delicately bring Randolph around to the federalist side. Once he succeeded in doing so, Randolph was a powerful voice in the debates urging ratification.

      1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead

        No disrespect to Ketchum. Good book. The last word on Madison is by Irving Brant. 6 volumes. Here you will find the backstory of how Randolph lined up the votes from the authority of his chair. His stature among Virginians was much greater in 1788 than Madison’s.

        Madison played a good hand behind the scenes during breaks in the taverns. His power of persuasion was in small groups and peppered with dirty jokes.

        Ketchum’s weakness is discounting Madison’s modifications and editing of his papers late in life in a vain attempt to enhance his legacy. Brant is better at deciphering this tinkering.

        I think if Henry and Mason had been a little younger and stronger in health they would have kept Randolph in their pocket.

        https://archive.org/details/jamesmadison0000unse

        1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
          Dick Hall-Sizemore

          I was aware of Brand’s work, but I was not up to tackling a six-volume biography. Especially since I am now working my way through Max Farrand’s four-volume set of the proceedings of the Constitutional Convention.

          In his preface, Ketcham acknowledges his debt to Brand. Maybe I will get to it someday. Sigh! So many books and so little time!

          1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
            James Wyatt Whitehead

            Mr. Dick you have to read Ketchum’s biography on Will Rogers. It will make you grin ear to ear. Sooooo good.

          2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            Thanks for the suggestion. I did not know that he had written that biography.

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