$50 Million to Extend Amtrak Service to Christiansburg?

by James A. Bacon

In his proposed budget unveiled yesterday, Governor Ralph Northam provides $50 million to extend Amtrak passenger rail service from Roanoke to the New River Valley. The money would go to “right-of-way and easement acquisitions and anything that would help reduce bottlenecks to make way for a passenger train in the New River Valley,” reports the Roanoke Times.

“This is an important down payment on extending passenger rail connections in Southwest Virginia,” Northam said. But it’s not a done deal yet, says the Times. There is no firm timeline for when the state and Norfolk Southern Corp. will strike an agreement.

Fifty million dollars is a non-insubstantial sum. As Northam acknowledges, it is only a “down payment.” It does not cover, for instance, the cost of building an Amtrak station in Christiansburg. Some documentation exists online about projected ridership, revenue, and costs available, but I could not find a study that weighed the costs and benefits of the proposed route compared to alternative investments of the money.

Let’s review the numbers, such as we have them.

One reason for optimism is that Amtrak service to Christiansburg would be an extension to an already-profitable rail service to Lynchburg and Roanoke, which is one of the strongest performing state-supported train routes on the Amtrak system. A single daily train carried more than 223,000 passengers in 2019, and the route saw a 14% year-to-year gain in the first two months of 2020 before the COVID pandemic threw all numbers off. In a passenger railroad rarity, Roanoke train revenues actually have exceeded operating costs.

An indicator of potential demand for inter-city rail service is that the Virginia Breeze bus line linking Blacksburg and Washington, D.C., carried nearly 29,000 riders in 2019.

The New River Valley, with a population of 180,000, has the fastest-growing region west of Richmond. The 40,000 students attending Virginia Tech and Radford are expected to be a core market for passenger rail. Forecasts suggest that a daily train service out of the New River Valley, routed through Roanoke, Lynchburg, and Charlottesville to Washington, would attract 16,000 to 20,000 riders a year, according to the Times.

That’s all well and good, but it does not tell us whether $50 million is a good investment of state funds. An economist always asks, what are the alternative opportunity costs — how else could the money be spent? A couple of questions.

  • To what degree would passenger rail represent an upgrade to inter-city passenger travel over the Virginia Breeze? The Breeze leaves Blacksburg at 8:00 a.m. and arrives in Washington, D.C., at 2:30 p.m. with stops at Dulles and Arlington. A one-way ticket costs $43.
  • Train service would provide more seating space, a bonus, but how would Amtrak travel time and ticker price compare? 
  • How much Virginia Breeze bus ridership would Amtrak cannibalize, and at what cost to Virginia Breeze?
  • What road/highway or airport upgrades might $50 million buy, and what would be the economic value added be?

I’m not saying that investing $50 million in extending public rail service to the New River Valley is a bad idea. The service to Lynchburg and Roanoke has worked out pretty well, and this might, too. But one can’t judge the value of a public infrastructure investment in isolation. It must be compared to alternative uses of the money. If such an analysis has been performed, I would like to see it. So should anyone who cares about the stewardship of public dollars.


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140 responses to “$50 Million to Extend Amtrak Service to Christiansburg?”

  1. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    Pre WW2, my old man (just out of high school) had a job on the RR. Train service ran regularly for workers at the Radford Arsenal ammunition plant, morning and evening, and he worked as a conductor. Had time to catch up on his sleep between trips. I think that is what attracted him to the job (and prepared him to sleep on long hauls in multi-engine aircraft in subsequent years.) In my youth train service Roanoke to SWVA, etc. was common, but we never did it. Once as a lark….

    We could rebuild our transportation system to make rail convenient and useful, but it’s going to cost. People may not go for $10 per gallon gas, with most going to subsidize rail. In this country, rail is for cargo.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      People may not realize that one half cent of sales taxes is dedicated to “transportation” of which they have the option which mode to spend it on.

      People also don’t realize that some of the hot lane tolls already get devoted to transit.

      Toll revenue from the 395 Express Lanes to support mass transit and multimodal improvements in Northern Virginia

      https://www.expresslanes.com/toll-revenue-supports-transportation-improvements

      1. Matt Adams Avatar

        Railroad’s cost $1-2 million dollars a mile to construct. That excludes all the new bells and whistles required under PTC. There is a reason that Amtrak doesn’t own much rail, but merely force the other Class I’s to allow it on their tracks.

      2. “People may not realize that one half cent of sales taxes is dedicated to “transportation” of which they have the option which mode to spend it on.”

        Well as long as I have an option, I choose motorcycles.

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Okay then. Just to compliment your choice and assure you of a last good ride… I choose hearses! Don’t worry, I won’t make you ride in the box in the back. Plenty of room for two shopping bags up front.

          I rode a Honda in the 70s. I wouldn’t ride a bike nowadays with these Oscar Gropes on the road today to… uh… Well. I wouldn’t.

          1. It can happen any time on any ride, but I’ve been dodging morons for 40 years and I’m pretty good at it. I see no reason to let them “bully” me out of one of life’s pleasures.

            Speaking of hearses, I have an antique sidecar rig that I would love to convert into a motorcycle hearse. I think I could make a nice little business out of giving antique motorcyclists their “last ride” on an antique motorcycle. The bike needs a complete engine rebuild and I lack the funds or the time right now, but maybe when I retire. I’ll have a custom set of riding leathers made to look like a tuxedo…

            PS – the main intent of my comment was to poke fun at Larry’s confused grammar.

  2. collectivists love trains. Everyone’s going to Cburg

  3. collectivists love trains. Everyone’s going to Cburg

  4. LarrytheG Avatar

    compare that cost to this:

    ” Virginia to build Long Bridge and acquire CSX right of way to expand passenger train service

    Virginia will build a new rail bridge over the Potomac River connecting Arlington and the District to significantly expand commuter and passenger train service over the next decade, Gov. Ralph Northam (D) announced Thursday.

    The state will own the new two-track span, to be constructed alongside the aged and overburdened Long Bridge. It will allow a 75 percent increase in frequency of Virginia Rail Express commuter trains and a doubling of Amtrak service between the District and Richmond, officials said.

    The bridge will be built by as early as 2027 as part of a $3.7 billion investment that also includes adding new track in the Washington-to-Richmond corridor and acquisition of hundreds of miles of passenger right of way from the private company CSX.”

  5. LarrytheG Avatar

    compare that cost to this:

    ” Virginia to build Long Bridge and acquire CSX right of way to expand passenger train service

    Virginia will build a new rail bridge over the Potomac River connecting Arlington and the District to significantly expand commuter and passenger train service over the next decade, Gov. Ralph Northam (D) announced Thursday.

    The state will own the new two-track span, to be constructed alongside the aged and overburdened Long Bridge. It will allow a 75 percent increase in frequency of Virginia Rail Express commuter trains and a doubling of Amtrak service between the District and Richmond, officials said.

    The bridge will be built by as early as 2027 as part of a $3.7 billion investment that also includes adding new track in the Washington-to-Richmond corridor and acquisition of hundreds of miles of passenger right of way from the private company CSX.”

  6. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    I am skeptical if anyone would take the ride. A one way ticket today from Culpeper to Roanoke is 57 bucks leaves at 6:24pm, don’t be late that train stops for 5 minutes only. Arrives in Roanoke at 9:55. Why not gas up the Jeep for 34 bucks and leave now and get to Blacksburg by 2 pm and have a cold one at Mike’s Burgers?

    1. Lawrence Hincker Avatar
      Lawrence Hincker

      Been a while since you’ve been to Blacksburg? Mike’s Grill has been shut down for years.

  7. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    I am skeptical if anyone would take the ride. A one way ticket today from Culpeper to Roanoke is 57 bucks leaves at 6:24pm, don’t be late that train stops for 5 minutes only. Arrives in Roanoke at 9:55. Why not gas up the Jeep for 34 bucks and leave now and get to Blacksburg by 2 pm and have a cold one at Mike’s Burgers?

    1. Lawrence Hincker Avatar
      Lawrence Hincker

      Been a while since you’ve been to Blacksburg? Mike’s Grill has been shut down for years.

  8. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    What a waste of money. Northam should, instead, direct the money to WMATA to keep more Silver Line service to Tysons. Remember how much money flows from Tysons to Virginia coffers.

  9. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    What a waste of money. Northam should, instead, direct the money to WMATA to keep more Silver Line service to Tysons. Remember how much money flows from Tysons to Virginia coffers.

  10. aside from the usual gripe that this is where transport funding from NoVA probably goes, which I now see directly above me, we are in an era of uncertainty re: mass transport. However, since I can walk to the AMTRAK train station, I might make an exception.

  11. aside from the usual gripe that this is where transport funding from NoVA probably goes, which I now see directly above me, we are in an era of uncertainty re: mass transport. However, since I can walk to the AMTRAK train station, I might make an exception.

  12. Tank that idea, and re-build rail line between Staunton and Richmond. There is no east-west rail in state.

  13. Tank that idea, and re-build rail line between Staunton and Richmond. There is no east-west rail in state.

  14. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    How about a station in Harrisonburg? I don’t think there’s even a bus stop there.

    1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead V

      The Valley RR only has freight traffic. Nearest Amtrak stop is Staunton. 2 times a day only.

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        Wait, where does it go from there?
        Poor Harrisonburg. I don’t think they even have a Rent-a-Car agency. Certainly no airport. Just I-81 and it requires a death wish.

  15. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    How about a station in Harrisonburg? I don’t think there’s even a bus stop there.

    1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead V

      The Valley RR only has freight traffic. Nearest Amtrak stop is Staunton. 2 times a day only.

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        Wait, where does it go from there?
        Poor Harrisonburg. I don’t think they even have a Rent-a-Car agency. Certainly no airport. Just I-81 and it requires a death wish.

  16. Just put the station next to Lane Stadium and call it a day

  17. Just put the station next to Lane Stadium and call it a day

  18. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    I love trains. Always have. Used to live 2 blocks from the R,F, and P station in Fredericksburg. This train in Roanoke is a beauty.
    https://www.vmt.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/NorfolkAndWestern.jpg

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      That picture looks like a Lionel. If ever you find yourself in Fort Worth or Grapevine, there’s a steam locamotive circa 1890s still making the roundtrip run between the cities. Well, maybe. It’s been 20 years.

      Nope, still there.

      1. Does it burn wood or coal? Or has it been converted to “clean burning natural gas”?

        1. Matt Adams Avatar

          Norfolk Southern ran steam excursions for their employee’s. However, the Steamer wasn’t making the power it was the GE unit behind it and he it running the diesel.

          That thing drew out all the FRN’s (derogatory term) with their telephoto lens and radios.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Why a radio? FRN… Railroad Nut?

            Psst, I think these guys might be two. Catch the “J Class”.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar

            Yes, F’n Railroad Nuts, because somehow the dispatchers frequencies were leaked online. So they call each other and tell them the movements of trains.

          3. idiocracy Avatar

            FRNs are also known as “foamers”.

          4. idiocracy Avatar

            By the way, those frequencies used by the dispatcher weren’t “leaked”. They are a part of the public record. All FCC license data is public and available on their website. It includes the authorized frequencies for each licensee.

          5. Matt Adams Avatar

            “idiocracy | December 18, 2020 at 6:48 am |
            By the way, those frequencies used by the dispatcher weren’t “leaked”. They are a part of the public record. All FCC license data is public and available on their website. It includes the authorized frequencies for each licensee”

            The band is public knowledge the specific frequency we used was not. It wouldn’t be very bright to public the frequency considering the railroad is forced to transport hazardous materials.

            It’s just one of many items that have been leaked online or stolen from railroad. People break open right of way cases to steal plans, they take parts of signals. That is why they are FRN’s.

          6. idiocracy Avatar

            All 27 frequencies used by Norfolk Southern are right here:

            https://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/licenseFreqSum.jsp?licKey=1914777&pageNumToReturn=1

            Not that tough to program all 27 into a scanner to find out which ones are active.

            Nothing was “leaked”, this is all public information.

          7. idiocracy Avatar

            The frequencies in use locally are right here:

            https://www.radioreference.com/db/fcc/callsign/KAZ649

            All public information. And not that difficult to punch into a scanner to find out which are used for what.

            Really, if security was a concern, these transmissions would be encrypted.

            Obviously they are not since anyone with a scanner can listen.

          8. Matt Adams Avatar

            What you’ve provided is FCC licenses not the frequencies used by operations and the like. Those have been leaked or stolen and I would remise if I didn’t say if you enter railroad property and are caught by the railroad police (they are armed and actual Police) you will face substantial fines.

            Again, the passage of Hazardous Materials Transportation Act of ’75 would probably say letting local nuts know where trains are, what their consist are is not a bright idea.

            “Really, if security was a concern, these transmissions would be encrypted.

            Obviously they are not since anyone with a scanner can listen.”

          9. idiocracy Avatar

            Those are a list of authorized frequencies for that particular license.

            It does not tell you which one is used by operations.

            However, you can be sure that the frequency used by operations IS on that list.

            You can also be sure that punching that list of frequencies into a scanner and monitoring them will eventually reveal the frequency used by operations.

            Of course, there ARE certain other high-tech methods…such as getting the tower location (also in the public FCC data) and bringing a frequency spectrum analyzer near it.

            Or getting a frequency counter near a handheld used by RR personnel.

            Bottom line: If you’re putting an unencrypted signal over the air, your “leak” is the signal itself.

          10. Matt Adams Avatar

            “Or getting a frequency counter near a handheld used by RR personnel.”

            Well if you’re not a railroad employee and you’re near a conductor or engineering operating their radio, you’re going to be arrested.

            Please feel free to continue to trespass, if it results in your life being lost your family will be paying the railroad, I can assure you.

          11. idiocracy Avatar

            A frequency counter can probably pick up a signal from a handheld radio from a distance well outside the railroad’s right of way.

            *I*, by the way, don’t trespass on RR property. If that is the conclusion you come to because I’m providing you a dose of reality about how radio REALLY works, that’s your problem, not mine.

            I should point out that I recall that Radio Shack used to advertise that their radio scanners have features to find new radio channels…and that was back in, oh, say, 1991. So those frequencies were probably known years before someone at Norfolk Southern came up with a theory about an inside leak.

            Radio Shack also used to have directories of scanner freqs, would not be one bit surprised if they were in there. Again, years ago.

          12. idiocracy Avatar

            Bottom line: IF the security of your operations depend upon the secrecy of a frequency over which unencrypted, FM-modulated communications are transmitted, you have some serious problems.

            This has been well known for decades in the radio industry. It became a problem as soon as the first radio scanner hit the market, probably back in the 70s.

            Not surprising that the railroad industry is insular enough to have never gotten a clue about it.

            Or, maybe just as likely, they’re too cheap to invest in some more modern comm gear.

          13. Matt Adams Avatar

            “idiocracy | December 18, 2020 at 2:43 pm |
            Bottom line: IF the security of your operations depend upon the secrecy of a frequency over which unencrypted, FM-modulated communications are transmitted, you have some serious problems.

            This has been well known for decades in the radio industry. It became a problem as soon as the first radio scanner hit the market, probably back in the 70s.

            Not surprising that the railroad industry is insular enough to have never gotten a clue about it.

            Or, maybe just as likely, they’re too cheap to invest in some more modern comm gear.”

            Spoken like someone who has zero understanding or knowledge of how expensive encryption equipment is and also zero knowledge of the expense of the railroad.

            Couple that with promoting the commission of a crime, just so you can get your jollies off listening to a Conductor talk to a dispatcher is in a word why we call you FRN’s.

          14. idiocracy Avatar

            I have far more interest in radio and electronics than I do anything having to with railroads (other than to observe their ridiculous cost-cutting measures).

            I recall one night coming upon the RR crossing on VA55 just outside Haymarket at about midnight. Gates down, no train coming. I called the “emergency” number posted on the RR crossing. I let it ring at least 20 times and nobody ever answered.

            I learned everything I needed to know about what a well-run operation Norfolk Southern is right then and there.

            Your pissing and moaning about “FRNs” here, presumably as an employee of that well-run outfit, is just a turd on top of that fecal sundae.

          15. idiocracy Avatar

            Oh, by the way, the panel antenna falling off the mast at the Bristow Rd. crossing in PWC was just spectacular.

            Guess someone at NS didn’t know that plywood doesn’t like to get wet.

            Only took them a month to fix it. Guess it wasn’t THAT important.

            And it only took them how many years to replace their faded, sharpie hand-written emergency notification signs with metal ones? Like other railroads had managed to install long before NS?

          16. idiocracy Avatar

            By the way, you can be assured that I am NOT an FRN because they seem to have some sort of (completely unfounded in my opinion) reverence for all things Norfolk Southern.

            I see more than enough of trains the times I’m stopped at a crossing waiting for them to go by. No desire to go chase one down. I prefer them to be as far from anywhere I go as possible.

          17. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Speaking of “in the clear”. Nothing beat sitting in the sun, baking on a windless day, 2 hours into a 4 hour sailboat race than tuning Ch 27 AT&T marine operator and listening to poor fisherman having a knock down, drag out fight with his wife over her cheating with the “guy at the bar”…

            Never mind, I’m just sick that way.

            Well N&S is Geogia’s problem now.

          18. idiocracy Avatar

            I recall, roughly about 20 years ago, playing with a radio scanner and scanning the 900-930MHz band (which was then used by many cordless phones).

            I heard a guy saying over and over “I want to rape you, I want to rape you, I want to rape you….”

            Yea, I moved out of that neighborhood. That COULD have been a contributing factor…

            But it’s amazing that, these days, a $25 cordless phone is pretty much immune to eavesdropping from a radio scanner.

        2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Belches black smoke like a demon… so yeah, it’s been converted to natural gas, or solar.

          They have 4 or 5 engines. Two or three steam and some diesel-electrics including a Santa Fe circa 1950.

    2. That is a beautiful piece of machinery. I always liked the “bullet-nosed” steam engines. That one is a “J class” and it was actually constructed in Roanoke.

      1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead V

        Mr. Wayne I think it still runs. It is alternated on display between Roanoke and the Spencer Shops in NC.

  19. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    I love trains. Always have. Used to live 2 blocks from the R,F, and P station in Fredericksburg. This train in Roanoke is a beauty.
    https://www.vmt.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/NorfolkAndWestern.jpg

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      That picture looks like a Lionel. If ever you find yourself in Fort Worth or Grapevine, there’s a steam locamotive circa 1890s still making the roundtrip run between the cities. Well, maybe. It’s been 20 years.

      Nope, still there.

      1. Does it burn wood or coal? Or has it been converted to “clean burning natural gas”?

        1. Matt Adams Avatar

          Norfolk Southern ran steam excursions for their employee’s. However, the Steamer wasn’t making the power it was the GE unit behind it and he it running the diesel.

          That thing drew out all the FRN’s (derogatory term) with their telephoto lens and radios.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar

            Yes, F’n Railroad Nuts, because somehow the dispatchers frequencies were leaked online. So they call each other and tell them the movements of trains.

          2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Why a radio? FRN… Railroad Nut?

            Psst, I think these guys might be two. Catch the “J Class”.

          3. idiocracy Avatar

            FRNs are also known as “foamers”.

          4. idiocracy Avatar

            By the way, those frequencies used by the dispatcher weren’t “leaked”. They are a part of the public record. All FCC license data is public and available on their website. It includes the authorized frequencies for each licensee.

          5. Matt Adams Avatar

            “idiocracy | December 18, 2020 at 6:48 am |
            By the way, those frequencies used by the dispatcher weren’t “leaked”. They are a part of the public record. All FCC license data is public and available on their website. It includes the authorized frequencies for each licensee”

            The band is public knowledge the specific frequency we used was not. It wouldn’t be very bright to public the frequency considering the railroad is forced to transport hazardous materials.

            It’s just one of many items that have been leaked online or stolen from railroad. People break open right of way cases to steal plans, they take parts of signals. That is why they are FRN’s.

          6. idiocracy Avatar

            All 27 frequencies used by Norfolk Southern are right here:

            https://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/licenseFreqSum.jsp?licKey=1914777&pageNumToReturn=1

            Not that tough to program all 27 into a scanner to find out which ones are active.

            Nothing was “leaked”, this is all public information.

          7. idiocracy Avatar

            The frequencies in use locally are right here:

            https://www.radioreference.com/db/fcc/callsign/KAZ649

            All public information. And not that difficult to punch into a scanner to find out which are used for what.

            Really, if security was a concern, these transmissions would be encrypted.

            Obviously they are not since anyone with a scanner can listen.

          8. Matt Adams Avatar

            What you’ve provided is FCC licenses not the frequencies used by operations and the like. Those have been leaked or stolen and I would remise if I didn’t say if you enter railroad property and are caught by the railroad police (they are armed and actual Police) you will face substantial fines.

            Again, the passage of Hazardous Materials Transportation Act of ’75 would probably say letting local nuts know where trains are, what their consist are is not a bright idea.

            “Really, if security was a concern, these transmissions would be encrypted.

            Obviously they are not since anyone with a scanner can listen.”

          9. idiocracy Avatar

            Those are a list of authorized frequencies for that particular license.

            It does not tell you which one is used by operations.

            However, you can be sure that the frequency used by operations IS on that list.

            You can also be sure that punching that list of frequencies into a scanner and monitoring them will eventually reveal the frequency used by operations.

            Of course, there ARE certain other high-tech methods…such as getting the tower location (also in the public FCC data) and bringing a frequency spectrum analyzer near it.

            Or getting a frequency counter near a handheld used by RR personnel.

            Bottom line: If you’re putting an unencrypted signal over the air, your “leak” is the signal itself.

          10. Matt Adams Avatar

            “Or getting a frequency counter near a handheld used by RR personnel.”

            Well if you’re not a railroad employee and you’re near a conductor or engineering operating their radio, you’re going to be arrested.

            Please feel free to continue to trespass, if it results in your life being lost your family will be paying the railroad, I can assure you.

          11. idiocracy Avatar

            A frequency counter can probably pick up a signal from a handheld radio from a distance well outside the railroad’s right of way.

            *I*, by the way, don’t trespass on RR property. If that is the conclusion you come to because I’m providing you a dose of reality about how radio REALLY works, that’s your problem, not mine.

            I should point out that I recall that Radio Shack used to advertise that their radio scanners have features to find new radio channels…and that was back in, oh, say, 1991. So those frequencies were probably known years before someone at Norfolk Southern came up with a theory about an inside leak.

            Radio Shack also used to have directories of scanner freqs, would not be one bit surprised if they were in there. Again, years ago.

          12. idiocracy Avatar

            Bottom line: IF the security of your operations depend upon the secrecy of a frequency over which unencrypted, FM-modulated communications are transmitted, you have some serious problems.

            This has been well known for decades in the radio industry. It became a problem as soon as the first radio scanner hit the market, probably back in the 70s.

            Not surprising that the railroad industry is insular enough to have never gotten a clue about it.

            Or, maybe just as likely, they’re too cheap to invest in some more modern comm gear.

          13. Matt Adams Avatar

            “idiocracy | December 18, 2020 at 2:43 pm |
            Bottom line: IF the security of your operations depend upon the secrecy of a frequency over which unencrypted, FM-modulated communications are transmitted, you have some serious problems.

            This has been well known for decades in the radio industry. It became a problem as soon as the first radio scanner hit the market, probably back in the 70s.

            Not surprising that the railroad industry is insular enough to have never gotten a clue about it.

            Or, maybe just as likely, they’re too cheap to invest in some more modern comm gear.”

            Spoken like someone who has zero understanding or knowledge of how expensive encryption equipment is and also zero knowledge of the expense of the railroad.

            Couple that with promoting the commission of a crime, just so you can get your jollies off listening to a Conductor talk to a dispatcher is in a word why we call you FRN’s.

          14. idiocracy Avatar

            I have far more interest in radio and electronics than I do anything having to with railroads (other than to observe their ridiculous cost-cutting measures).

            I recall one night coming upon the RR crossing on VA55 just outside Haymarket at about midnight. Gates down, no train coming. I called the “emergency” number posted on the RR crossing. I let it ring at least 20 times and nobody ever answered.

            I learned everything I needed to know about what a well-run operation Norfolk Southern is right then and there.

            Your pissing and moaning about “FRNs” here, presumably as an employee of that well-run outfit, is just a turd on top of that fecal sundae.

          15. idiocracy Avatar

            Oh, by the way, the panel antenna falling off the mast at the Bristow Rd. crossing in PWC was just spectacular.

            Guess someone at NS didn’t know that plywood doesn’t like to get wet.

            Only took them a month to fix it. Guess it wasn’t THAT important.

            And it only took them how many years to replace their faded, sharpie hand-written emergency notification signs with metal ones? Like other railroads had managed to install long before NS?

          16. idiocracy Avatar

            By the way, you can be assured that I am NOT an FRN because they seem to have some sort of (completely unfounded in my opinion) reverence for all things Norfolk Southern.

            I see more than enough of trains the times I’m stopped at a crossing waiting for them to go by. No desire to go chase one down. I prefer them to be as far from anywhere I go as possible.

          17. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            Speaking of “in the clear”. Nothing beat sitting in the sun, baking on a windless day, 2 hours into a 4 hour sailboat race than tuning Ch 27 AT&T marine operator and listening to poor fisherman having a knock down, drag out fight with his wife over her cheating with the “guy at the bar”…

            Never mind, I’m just sick that way.

            Well N&S is Geogia’s problem now.

          18. idiocracy Avatar

            I recall, roughly about 20 years ago, playing with a radio scanner and scanning the 900-930MHz band (which was then used by many cordless phones).

            I heard a guy saying over and over “I want to rape you, I want to rape you, I want to rape you….”

            Yea, I moved out of that neighborhood. That COULD have been a contributing factor…

            But it’s amazing that, these days, a $25 cordless phone is pretty much immune to eavesdropping from a radio scanner.

        2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Belches black smoke like a demon… so yeah, it’s been converted to natural gas, or solar.

          They have 4 or 5 engines. Two or three steam and some diesel-electrics including a Santa Fe circa 1950.

    2. That is a beautiful piece of machinery. I always liked the “bullet-nosed” steam engines. That one is a “J class” and it was actually constructed in Roanoke.

      1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
        James Wyatt Whitehead V

        Mr. Wayne I think it still runs. It is alternated on display between Roanoke and the Spencer Shops in NC.

  20. Has there been an uopdate of economic benefits from the 2016 study? https://nrvrc.org/nrvpassengerrailstudy/

  21. Has there been an uopdate of economic benefits from the 2016 study? https://nrvrc.org/nrvpassengerrailstudy/

  22. LarrytheG Avatar

    Most all the right-of-way for private sector rail came from the Govt.

    1. No, most of the right of way for private rail came from private property condemned by the government.

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        In the East, for certain. Not far from my house is an old (wouldn’t surprise me if early 1800s) apartment house that has to be on rhe Right-of-way. You can’t spit from the house without hitting a train. They just remodeled it.

        Once stayed in a motel in Charlottesville where the train wasn’t 10 feet from the bathroom window. 6AM a train passed by and I thought someone had put a quarter in the MagicFingers…

        As Colis P. said, “If it’s not nailed down, it’s mine. That which I can pry loose is not nailed down.”

        1. Matt Adams Avatar

          It’s a circle of life, rail lines that properties no longer want or their administrations don’t want to pay taxes on sell them for rails to trails. It makes sense I suppose, we didn’t often use more than a 3% grade.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            In Peru back in the 70s, they wanted to replace a vintage 1300HP steam locamotive with a shiny new diesel-electric 1800HP. On it’s maiden trip up the switchbacks, it made it about halfway. O2 ran out. That steam engine just gets more power as it goes up the mountains. They now use the diesel to the halfway and the steam to finish the trip.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar

            That’s the price you pay for fuel efficiency, I’m sure they were using a lot more fuel from the steam the higher they went as well.

          3. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            No doubt the fires were cooler but that piston internal steam pressure to atmospheric pressure ratio still goes up fast the higher you go. Hmmm, steam powered Shuttle?

        2. My wife’s office at her last job was about 25 feet from a set of railroad tracks. She would have to pause telephone conversations when a train was passing by.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar

            There was an instance where the legal/land department sold off old right of way that was no longer in use. However, they failed to do an actual survey and for all intents and purposes removed the maintainers access to a still in use control point.

  23. djrippert Avatar

    This is typical of the twisted logic of most rural development ideas. First, the proponents claim that there is good demand now and tons of pent up demand for the service in the future. Then they want money from outside the region to pay for things. If the business case is so strong why not a regional bond for $50m that will be paid back with the proceeds from this “no-brainer” of a good business idea? The world is awash in cash looking for returns. Why wouldn’t a private enterprise build this extension?

    “One reason for optimism is that Amtrak service to Christiansburg would be an extension to an already-profitable rail service to Lynchburg and Roanoke, which is one of the strongest performing state-supported train routes on the Amtrak system.”

    If it’s profitable then why is it also “state supported”?

    1. sherlockj Avatar

      Always one good test of a government mass transportation idea. Would private investors support it? Not the only test, but should be on the list.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Is Mass Transit more like police and fire and other essential services? It is in Europe and Asia, right?

        1. When was the last time a bus driver put out a fire at your house?

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            “Virginia Breeze?”

            Oh virginia… never mind.

        2. djrippert Avatar

          Virginia Breeze is mass transit. It’s just not as cool as the people in Roanoke want.

          1. Virginia Breeze?

            Sounds like a brand of cigarettes from the 1970s…

  24. djrippert Avatar

    This is typical of the twisted logic of most rural development ideas. First, the proponents claim that there is good demand now and tons of pent up demand for the service in the future. Then they want money from outside the region to pay for things. If the business case is so strong why not a regional bond for $50m that will be paid back with the proceeds from this “no-brainer” of a good business idea? The world is awash in cash looking for returns. Why wouldn’t a private enterprise build this extension?

    “One reason for optimism is that Amtrak service to Christiansburg would be an extension to an already-profitable rail service to Lynchburg and Roanoke, which is one of the strongest performing state-supported train routes on the Amtrak system.”

    If it’s profitable then why is it also “state supported”?

    1. sherlockj Avatar

      Always one good test of a government mass transportation idea. Would private investors support it? Not the only test, but should be on the list.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Is Mass Transit more like police and fire and other essential services? It is in Europe and Asia, right?

        1. When was the last time a bus driver put out a fire at your house?

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            “Virginia Breeze?”

            Oh virginia… never mind.

        2. djrippert Avatar

          Virginia Breeze is mass transit. It’s just not as cool as the people in Roanoke want.

          1. Virginia Breeze?

            Sounds like a brand of cigarettes from the 1970s…

  25. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    GREAT campaign brochure material….seeing my old Forest Road/Jefferson Hills neighbor John Edwards (where he lives now, I cut the grass as a teenager) all over this told me all I need to know about how this got on the Governor’s goodie list. As a transpo investment? Dumb as %*&t. But this the traditional political move for Roanoke politicians — score some minor crumbs in the state budget and claim it will save the regional economy. Think Dickie World. Center in the Square. This will end up in the same dustbin.

  26. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    GREAT campaign brochure material….seeing my old Forest Road/Jefferson Hills neighbor John Edwards (where he lives now, I cut the grass as a teenager) all over this told me all I need to know about how this got on the Governor’s goodie list. As a transpo investment? Dumb as %*&t. But this the traditional political move for Roanoke politicians — score some minor crumbs in the state budget and claim it will save the regional economy. Think Dickie World. Center in the Square. This will end up in the same dustbin.

  27. LarrytheG Avatar

    You know the funny thing? Air travel is also “mass transit” and people end up “herded” as well as forced to fly on the airlines schedule AND PRICE and not what one would necessarily willingly choose.

    People, often, and usually have to plan days, weeks in advance to fly – and then the experience is much like riding a bus.

    1. djrippert Avatar

      Air travel should not be subsidized by our state government either.

    2. What’s your point?

      Are you saying you think people should have to plan weeks in advance to ride a train?

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        I’m saying that air travel IS also mass transit and even less convenient than other mass transit. Passenger rail in Europe and Asia IS convenient and functional and preferred to other forms of transporation because they have built it to be convenient and functional without requiring it to “pay for itself”. It’s an essential service.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar

          Amtrak is prohibitive expensive and takes longer than it should. There is a reason that they’ve never operated in the black.

  28. LarrytheG Avatar

    You know the funny thing? Air travel is also “mass transit” and people end up “herded” as well as forced to fly on the airlines schedule AND PRICE and not what one would necessarily willingly choose.

    People, often, and usually have to plan days, weeks in advance to fly – and then the experience is much like riding a bus.

    1. djrippert Avatar

      Air travel should not be subsidized by our state government either.

    2. What’s your point?

      Are you saying you think people should have to plan weeks in advance to ride a train?

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        I’m saying that air travel IS also mass transit and even less convenient than other mass transit. Passenger rail in Europe and Asia IS convenient and functional and preferred to other forms of transporation because they have built it to be convenient and functional without requiring it to “pay for itself”. It’s an essential service.

        1. Matt Adams Avatar

          Amtrak is prohibitive expensive and takes longer than it should. There is a reason that they’ve never operated in the black.

  29. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    Pre WW2, my old man (just out of high school) had a job on the RR. Train service ran regularly for workers at the Radford Arsenal ammunition plant, morning and evening, and he worked as a conductor. Had time to catch up on his sleep between trips. I think that is what attracted him to the job (and prepared him to sleep on long hauls in multi-engine aircraft in subsequent years.) In my youth train service Roanoke to SWVA, etc. was common, but we never did it. Once as a lark….

    We could rebuild our transportation system to make rail convenient and useful, but it’s going to cost. People may not go for $10 per gallon gas, with most going to subsidize rail. In this country, rail is for cargo.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      People may not realize that one half cent of sales taxes is dedicated to “transportation” of which they have the option which mode to spend it on.

      People also don’t realize that some of the hot lane tolls already get devoted to transit.

      Toll revenue from the 395 Express Lanes to support mass transit and multimodal improvements in Northern Virginia

      https://www.expresslanes.com/toll-revenue-supports-transportation-improvements

      1. Matt Adams Avatar

        Railroad’s cost $1-2 million dollars a mile to construct. That excludes all the new bells and whistles required under PTC. There is a reason that Amtrak doesn’t own much rail, but merely force the other Class I’s to allow it on their tracks.

      2. “People may not realize that one half cent of sales taxes is dedicated to “transportation” of which they have the option which mode to spend it on.”

        Well as long as I have an option, I choose motorcycles.

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          Okay then. Just to compliment your choice and assure you of a last good ride… I choose hearses! Don’t worry, I won’t make you ride in the box in the back. Plenty of room for two shopping bags up front.

          I rode a Honda in the 70s. I wouldn’t ride a bike nowadays with these Oscar Gropes on the road today to… uh… Well. I wouldn’t.

          1. It can happen any time on any ride, but I’ve been dodging morons for 40 years and I’m pretty good at it. I see no reason to let them “bully” me out of one of life’s pleasures.

            Speaking of hearses, I have an antique sidecar rig that I would love to convert into a motorcycle hearse. I think I could make a nice little business out of giving antique motorcyclists their “last ride” on an antique motorcycle. The bike needs a complete engine rebuild and I lack the funds or the time right now, but maybe when I retire. I’ll have a custom set of riding leathers made to look like a tuxedo…

            PS – the main intent of my comment was to poke fun at Larry’s confused grammar.

  30. DLunsford Avatar

    Hmmmm, “right-of-way and easement acquisitions”. Wouldn’t a rail line fit perfectly on top of a natural gas pipeline right-of-way? No wait!

    1. Matt Adams Avatar

      Yeah, more people to call quest about when trenching for cable.

    2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      I think they call that a “guardrail”. Or a bigger explosion.

      1. VDOTyranny Avatar

        You don’t need a pipeline for that…
        https://youtu.be/gM0YXQ5mpew

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          That was the shale oil? Apparently that stuff is pretty unstable.

          Yeah, but imagine if there had been a pipeline too. It would have been glorious!

  31. LarrytheG Avatar

    Most all the right-of-way for private sector rail came from the Govt.

    1. No, most of the right of way for private rail came from private property condemned by the government.

      1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
        Nancy_Naive

        In the East, for certain. Not far from my house is an old (wouldn’t surprise me if early 1800s) apartment house that has to be on rhe Right-of-way. You can’t spit from the house without hitting a train. They just remodeled it.

        Once stayed in a motel in Charlottesville where the train wasn’t 10 feet from the bathroom window. 6AM a train passed by and I thought someone had put a quarter in the MagicFingers…

        As Colis P. said, “If it’s not nailed down, it’s mine. That which I can pry loose is not nailed down.”

        1. Matt Adams Avatar

          It’s a circle of life, rail lines that properties no longer want or their administrations don’t want to pay taxes on sell them for rails to trails. It makes sense I suppose, we didn’t often use more than a 3% grade.

          1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            In Peru back in the 70s, they wanted to replace a vintage 1300HP steam locamotive with a shiny new diesel-electric 1800HP. On it’s maiden trip up the switchbacks, it made it about halfway. O2 ran out. That steam engine just gets more power as it goes up the mountains. They now use the diesel to the halfway and the steam to finish the trip.

          2. Matt Adams Avatar

            That’s the price you pay for fuel efficiency, I’m sure they were using a lot more fuel from the steam the higher they went as well.

          3. Nancy_Naive Avatar
            Nancy_Naive

            No doubt the fires were cooler but that piston internal steam pressure to atmospheric pressure ratio still goes up fast the higher you go. Hmmm, steam powered Shuttle?

        2. My wife’s office at her last job was about 25 feet from a set of railroad tracks. She would have to pause telephone conversations when a train was passing by.

          1. Matt Adams Avatar

            There was an instance where the legal/land department sold off old right of way that was no longer in use. However, they failed to do an actual survey and for all intents and purposes removed the maintainers access to a still in use control point.

  32. DLunsford Avatar

    Hmmmm, “right-of-way and easement acquisitions”. Wouldn’t a rail line fit perfectly on top of a natural gas pipeline right-of-way? No wait!

    1. Matt Adams Avatar

      Yeah, more people to call quest about when trenching for cable.

    2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      I think they call that a “guardrail”. Or a bigger explosion.

      1. VDOTyranny Avatar

        You don’t need a pipeline for that…
        https://youtu.be/gM0YXQ5mpew

        1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
          Nancy_Naive

          That was the shale oil? Apparently that stuff is pretty unstable.

          Yeah, but imagine if there had been a pipeline too. It would have been glorious!

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