The 21st Century Railroad Revolution

Today’s Wall Street Journal is touting a multi-billion dollar investment spree by United States railroads — the biggest in literally a century — as the dawn of a new railroad era. And much of the activity, the Journal notes, is taking place in Virginia. Indeed, a map on the WSJ front page suggests that Virginia, along with Alabama and Texas, stands at the epicenter of the railroad revolution.

The last major railroad investment binge took place before World War II. Railroads stagnated between the two world wars, then lost massive market share to trucks after the war, thanks in large part to the construction of the Interstate highway. For decades, railroads consolidated, downsized, shrank routes and abandoned tracks. But since 2000, railroads have spent $10 billion to expand their tracks, and they have $12 billion more in upgrades planned.

The WSJ quotes Norfolk Southern CEO Charles “Wick” Moorman IV: “The railroad industry is finally making some money. And we’re pumping that money into our infrastructure.”

Railroads are getting a political boost from an unexpected source: environmentalists who see rail transport as more energy efficient than truck transport. Norfolk Southern has adopted their arguments as justification for government support. Reports the Journal:

Norfolk Southern is seeking public funding to accelerate rail-corridor projects, arguing that they provide a public benefit by limiting fuel use, traffic congestion and air pollution. The idea is gaining backers.

One of those backers is Virginia. The WSJ highlights Norfolk Southern’s upgrade of the “Heartland Corridor,” which runs from Hampton Roads through Virginia to the Midwest, and the Crescent Corridor, which runs from New York City through Virginia to New Orleans. Trucks made four million to 4.5 million trips annually along Interstate 81 on the Crescent Corridor. Norfolk Southern envisions a route with enough speed and capacity to displace about one million truck trips a year — and it wants $2 billion to do it.

I applaud the revitalization of the railroad industry. And I totally agree that railroads are well positioned to capture container traffic from trucks, reducing traffic congestion, fuel consumption and air pollution. Here’s the question: Should government, whether the federal government or the states, help pay for something that it may be in Norfolk Southern’s best interest to do on its own?

Normally, I support a strict-user pays approach to transportation. However, I’m open to the idea (not fully persuaded, mind you, just open) that public support for Norfolk Southern could be justified if it offers the Virginia Department of Transportation a superior Return on Investment of its limited transportation dollars — i.e. more vehicles off the road, more congestion relieved, less gasoline consumption, less air pollution.

(Map credit: Adapted from the Wall Street Journal.)


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  1. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    …”…network of supercorridors up to 1,200 feet (370 m) wide to carry parallel links of tollways, rails, and utility lines.[1] The tollway portion would be divided into two separate elements: truck lanes and lanes for passenger vehicles. Similarly, the rail lines in the corridor would be divided among freight, commuter, and high-speed rail. Services expected to be carried in the utility corridor include water, electricity, natural gas, petroleum, fiber optic lines, and other telecommunications services.”

    Trans-Texas Corridor
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Texas_Corridor

    A version of the above.. leveraged on our existing Virgnia rail corridors and built FDR WPA-style with toll road revenues .. sans VDOT-involvement of course.

  2. On the one hand, removing intermodal traffic from the highway system will offset future expansion of I-81/85/95/64, so diverting tax money from roads to rail might be a good idea. Alternatively, those taxes are usually collected specifically for roads (gas tax, although I think this is now termed transportation funding).

    However, I have heard some people talk about the public transportation impacts of this funding, and I doubt if those will every come to pass. The newest tracks built will probably be degraded quickly by heavy rail, unless there is enough funding for dedicated light transport tracks. I don’t think the funding levels are high enough to support this for a huge transport system that we’re talking about.

    More comments here

  3. E M Risse Avatar

    Texas IS a hotbed of rail construction. A lot of it involves feed tracks for refinery expansion but that is now in doubt as we will note in a upcoming column.

    This whole discussion of mode shift has the cart before the horse.

    The future will be sustainable only with less, not more interRegional travel demand.

    Shifting from truck to rail is a great idea but there may already be all the rail capacity that will be needed for the reduced demand from more robust (Balanced) New Urban Regional economies and from more Balanced urban agglomerations in Urban Support Regions.

    First citizens (the New Fourth Estate) need to sort out functional and sustainable settlement patterns THEN they can figure out what transport systems match those demands mose effeciently and with the least negative externalities.

    EMR

  4. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    does this mean when we evolve to Balanced Communities that I no longer will be able to buy my extra virgin olive oil at the local Food Lion and I’ll have to settle for recycled corn oil?

    🙂

  5. Anonymous Avatar

    I totally agree that railroads are well positioned to reduce traffic congestion, fuel consumption and air pollution. That might not be enough to capture business from trucks. The still need to offer better service and price, which isn’t the same thing as being energy efficient.

    Therefore the question” “Should government, whether the federal government or the states, help pay for something that it may be in Norfolk Southern’s best interest to do on its own?” isn’t the right question.

    Whether or not it is in Norfolk Southern’s interest should not deter the government from making an additional investment, if it can be shown that reaching the goal sooner provides a reasonable ROI to the government investor/citizens.

    N/S needs to get its own return on its investment, but thereis an externality (less pollution and energy use) that benefits them little. It is the citizens that benefit from this, and they should be willing to pay for the benefit received.

    The trucking industry will no doubt see this as a subsidy to the railroads, and they would be partially right. They cannot complain about business that N/S legitimately “captures” through competition. But if that process is speeded up (with government help) then there is a short – term government sponsored loss to the trucking industry, which would need to be addressed.

    If the winners can pay the losers and still coome out ahead, then it is a fair deal.

    So, how much is the (earlier) reduction in energy use and pollution worth, remembering that the remaining part of it will be paid for in losses to the trucking industry?

    RH

  6. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    RH – is it your contention that changes – whether fostered by the private or public sector cannot be made if they result in other businesses being adversely impacted even if those businesses are benefiting from a subsidy not accorded other businesses?

    So.. removing the subsidy or according an equivalent subsidy to rail that they did not get when trucking got one is not allowed?

    Are we back to the idea that the status quo – including all subsidies cannot be changed without compensating those affected?

    How about plain old innovation?

    A new company or an existing company that gains a competitive advantage cannot exploit it if it puts another company at a disadvantage?

    I’m trying to understand the rationale behind the philosophy which sounds like – change is unfair and cannot be allowed if it has adverse impacts on existing businesses.

    thoughts?

  7. Simple answer, no way, no how. It should be good old fashioned capitalism. The railroad wants to prosper, then take a gamble, invest YOUR money and then YOU get all the profits if the gamble pays off. I believe that the railroads will revive and be a good place to make some money. I don’t think public money has any business dealing in/with private money. Keep the dang government out of business!!!!

  8. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    with regard to rail and trucking in general.

    yes.. rail is expanding.. but recognize how much rail bed has been abandoned. To a certain extent, the success of the Rail to Trail movement is because rail has been and continues to abandon rail spurs that are not profitable.

    and I don’t see rail going back and trying to get those old rights-of-ways back either.

    So what does that mean?

    To me, it means that rail is concentrating on the major corridors between the major urban areas – and not rail to the smaller towns.

    What does that mean?

    Well.. it means that goods are not going to be delivered to many places by rail but instead by truck.

    Anyone can pretty much prove this to themselves.

    Go to ANY Walmart or Target or Food Lion or 7-11 and just observe how they get their re-supply.

    and it’s not a caravan fleet of trucks who show up on once a month..

    it’s a steady stream of 18-wheelers almost on a daily basis delivering just-in-time stock…. that is made possible by the same store scanners that check you out. Those scanners are also building the next store order from the distribution warehouse.. to be delivered by 18-wheeler.

    Check it out.. for yourself.. look at a stock item that sells well and come back in a few days..and you’ll see that it has been restocked… not in a month or a week. but in days because for every one of those items sold – it shows up on a computer at the distribution center to put put on a truck bound for that store within 48 hours.

    So .. basically the trucking and the rail business have gravitated towards the part of the supply change that they do best.

    Not a one of us is going to walk into a WalMart or Food Lion and find them out of our favorite coffee and it will not to be in stock again for a week or month .. acceptable.

    We’ve all taken this for granted.

    If it is not in stock.. we don’t wait.. we just hit the next store to get it.

    Just-in-time is part of our modern lives.

    and whether we want to believe it or not – trains don’t deliver to stores.

    trains deliver to distribution warehouses and trucks deliver to stores.

    What that means is that trucks are not going to go away from the roads.

    Those 18-wheelers are going to be there no matter how many new train tracks are added.

    Further.. there will be more of them as more stores get more stock just-in-time.

    I know this really messes up EMR’s concept of Balanced Communities but I don’t see how this comes out differently as long as we allow businesses the freedom to pursue their own business strategies.

    We just don’t live in a world where someone says that trains will be the primary delivery method for re-supplying stores .. we leave that up to the companies that operate the stores.

    so.. when we say that we need trains to replace the trucks on I-81.. what are we saying?

    are we telling business that the way they operate while productive to them is a problem to us and that they need to do things differently?

    I don’t know the answers here though no one ever accused me of not having opinions…

    thoughts?

  9. Darrell -- Chesapeake Avatar
    Darrell — Chesapeake

    Exactly right Larry. In case you guys haven’t been reading the papers, there is going to be a huge expansion of the ports down here. That’s why they need the third crossing, that’s why they need the expanded rail service, and that’s why they are building transfer centers in Roanoke and Columbus, Ohio. Because the state owns the port, they are building the rail to turn over to NS. And the locals get to build the roads.

    Reducing congestion and the number of trucks is a fantasy for the masses.

  10. Anonymous Avatar

    “is it your contention that changes – whether fostered by the private or public sector cannot be made if they result in other businesses being adversely impacted even if those businesses are benefiting from a subsidy not accorded other businesses?”

    Is it you contention that there is NEVER an appropriate time to start acting fairly, just because we didn’t before?

    I actually think that Accurate has the right idea, keep out, hands off, let the rilroad do as they please with their money.

    But I also know that the government is going to spend their money on something. Accurate would say keep the dang government out of business.

    But if you look at what I said, it was that government should be clear about what it is buying. If the idea is to use less fuel and get cleaner air, that might be constured as a legitimate government interest. We can wait for the railroad to do it for us, or we can acclerate the process to get the benefit sooner.

    The government could accomplish the same thing (and maybe make a profit) if it just went out and bought railroad stock. but then they would own part of the railroad. This sort of thing is generally frowned on.

    In the other interest, the government is only investng in clean air, sooner (which it might get anyway, at the railroads expense). How does it get the clean air sooner? It accelerates the demise of some trucking.

    Therefore, once you come to the end of the period when the railroad would have finished by itself, you can withdraw the temporary support to the truckers. the idea is to be clear about what you are buying, what you are NOT buying, and when the payments end.

    So, what I am suggesting is that the government cannot decide by looking only at the fuel savings and pollution reduction that this is a good investment, and it should not be sold as if it is. The Coasian analysis I suggest is required in order to keep the government honest (not to mention fair).

    After you do all that, you probably find out that the total investment reauired (by government) isn’t worth the fuel saved.

    And the conclusion is as Accurate says: Keep the dang government out of business!!!!

    RH

  11. E M Risse Avatar

    At 2:51 PM, Larry Gross said…
    does this mean when we evolve to Balanced Communities that I no longer will be able to buy my extra virgin olive oil at the local Food Lion and I’ll have to settle for recycled corn oil?

    Larry:

    More likely in a Balanced Community setting you would get your olive oil from a bulk container (BYoC) at your Village specialty grocer who also sells home made bread and opens his store on Tuesdays and Saturdays to welcome six local farmers who sell….

    (We get BYoC olive oil in Middleburg for less than it costs at William Sonoma. In taste tests the Food Lion stuff does not pass muster.)

    In the Balanced Community setting, the oil is cheaper than it was a Food Lion, much less at William Sonoma because of shipping, marketing and packaging costs.

    Oh yes, when costs were fairly allocated Food Lion could not compete.

    Now something new on the horizon. Fred who farms the south slope of Near-By Hill and makes Buffalo cheese is setting up a sheltered / climate controled / heated with waste place to grow a couple of dozen olive trees and press his own oil. He will sell it at the market along with his Buffalo cheese…

    EMR

  12. Anonymous Avatar

    delivering just-in-time stock

    The truckers and retailers have basically invented a new use for highways: they are now a rolling warehouse.

    In doing so, they are esentially claiming a new property right that they never had before, and they are not paying anything additional for it.

    All of us pay the price, as EMR said by risk of disparate mass. By trucks parked on the periphery, waiting for their prescribed delivery time, or worse, racing to meet their delivery time.

    But Larrys analysis is eactly right. Trains are not going to make the trucks go away. most of us will still be faced with the same problems, even if the trucks are now driving somwhat shorter distances on average. And, now you need two trucks, one at each end of the trip. Even though you reduce the number of truck miles, you might increase the number aggravation and danger of trucks everyplace else but where the rail line is.

    Now, take the same analysis Larry has made and replace rail with metro and trucks with cars.

    Darryl is right: Reducing congestion and the number of trucks (vehicles) is a fantasy for the masses.

    ——————————

    “are we telling business that the way they operate while productive to them is a problem to us and that they need to do things differently”

    Why not? We don’t seem to have aproblem suggesting we do that to developers and land owners.

    Or are you saying that maybe the government should’t be involved?

    RH

  13. Anonymous Avatar

    How interesting.

    When I reported a Moorman speech last Fall on this blog and reported some of the very same things as in the WSJarticle, I was accused of being a shill for chamber of commerce types.

    What’s changed?

    Peter Galuszka

  14. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    “The truckers and retailers have basically invented a new use for highways: they are now a rolling warehouse.”

    excellent description! Kudos!

    now the question is – are the truckers and retailing being subsidized unfairly over rail?

    For instance, do our highways have to be twice and thick and cost twice as much to support the “rolling warehouse”?

    and if we think they do – what do we do about it?

    and pay attention here RH – because this is the issue.

    It’s NOT OKAY because.. in the end, those costs have to be paid by consumers anyhow…

    UNLESS

    it IS the Most Cost Effective method – WITHOUT the subsidy on a level field comparison with rail.

    In other words, has the trucking industry leveraged a subsidy into a competitive advantage but one that is not as cost effective a business model as what a competitive market would gravitate towards.

    My attitude is that there are no guarantees with a subsidy.

    It’s only as good as long as voters and elected officials support it and it’s never ever a ‘property right”.

    I’m pretty sure RH’s solution to this quandary would be to “level the playing field” by extending a similar subsidy to the rails which I think would be actually compounding the problem further.

    Take the subsidies away from both .. give the trucking industry advance notice so they can start evolving their business models as appropriate and do it on a phased basis.. so it’s not an overnight change… but do it.

    Having said this.. I don’t think much will change on the interplay between what gets shipped by rail and what gets delivered by truck.

    note . the words.. “shipped” and “delivered”.

    Note to EMR .. re: bulk products

    that option exists already.. everywhere.. using the same supply chains.

    A store could .. right now.. operate with bulk products.. but most do not..

    Are you not envisioning a supply chain that is an abbreviated version of today’s supply chains that essentially forces the market to adopt bulk goods over wider, fresher selection of products?

    I just don’t see how that happens.. unless we run out of oil completely.

    the supply chains won’t go away .. they’ll just get more efficient and/or pass on higher costs.

    Gasoline could be $10 a gallon and trucks would still deliver – no?

    A truck that carries 10,000 pound can deliver that load in a 100 miles for about $75 worth of fuel at $3 a gallon. At $10 a gallon, that load would cost $400 to deliver but when you allocate out the costs over 10,000 pounds… the difference is literally pennies per item.

    right?

    the rails must think so too because they are shedding all the rail rights-of-way that are not mainline routes…

    many if not most of the spurs to smaller towns and cities are being abandoned.. and I would have thought that if there was, in the minds of the rail companies.. even the slightest idea that they’d need those rights-of-ways that they’d never get rid of them.. because going back later and reacquiring rights-of-way would be very expensive .. probably prohibitively (unless the government subsidizes it).

  15. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: Peter/what’s changed.

    I vaguely remember .. not the exact details.. perhaps the continuing dialog has resulted in people moving your way on this…

    🙂

  16. Anonymous Avatar

    “are the truckers and retailing being subsidized unfairly over rail?”

    Depending on how this is stated, yes. As I put it, by putting JIT delvery in place, the shippers have essentially claimed a new property right, that they have not paid for. If you prefer, you can say that by not demanding that the public property rights that are being taken be paid for, we are offerering a de facto subsidy.

    As you point out, if we charge the trucks more, the cost will come back to us. But, here is a case where user pays makes sense. Most all the transaction costs are already in place, so there is little extra cost there. And those people that buy the most stuff, the biggest users, would pay the most in extra costs, instead of having it distributed to all of us via the black box.

    My only point had to do with the case if we offered something to the railroads that cost the truckers money in the short run. If that was the case then the truckers should be compensated – at least temporarily.

    “do our highways have to be twice and thick and cost twice as much to support the “rolling warehouse”?”

    It is a LOT worse than that. Some calculate that a truck does a thousand times as much damage to the roads as an auto. In some places like Arkansas you can actually see it in action. They have soft, silty soil and when it rains the soil gets soft. As the trucks drive over you can watch the soil being gradually “pumped” out from undeer the road.

    I think that as fuel prices rise there will be “some” incentive to move more products by rail. You are correct about the cost per item, but that isn’t really the point. That 10,000 lb load is probably 20,000 lbs, or more, and it may be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. The fuel costs are minsicule compared to the interest being paid on the load.

    So, when you have load ready,you can call the freight broker, and he will have you a truck in an hour. But if he takes it to the train, well, it travels when the train is ready. It is just hard to justify doing it if you are shipping less than 600 miles, unless you have dedicated bulk unit trains, like the coal vendors use.

    ——————————-

    EMR is making some obvious mistakes on his idea of saving money/resources by selling locally in bulk. That said, people are waking up to part of his idea. It is now estimated that bottled water costs us 16 million barrels of oil a year. And the bottled water isn’t even any better.

    RH

  17. E M Risse Avatar

    “Note to EMR .. re: bulk products

    “that option exists already.. everywhere.. using the same supply chains.

    “A store could .. right now.. operate with bulk products.. but most do not..”

    In large part because the cost of not just movement but of packaging, etc. are not yet fairly allocated.

    Also bulk sales are risky, there is waste, they take a lot of labor intensive clean up and are subject to theft.

    In smaller, no-chain outlets these cost are far less.

    The big issue is that you cited olive oil. Keep the Sunlight and oxygen away from olive oil and you can ship it in sail boats like the Roamans did.

    You like to cite exotic fruits, and they may still be worth shipping by air, even if to true cost of air freight is included.

    Recall Balanced NURs are not selfsufficient, they just import as much as they export and continually try to replace the imports with local products and processes.

    “Are you not envisioning a supply chain that is an abbreviated version of today’s supply chains that essentially forces the market to adopt bulk goods over wider, fresher selection of products?”

    See note on olive oil above.

    “I just don’t see how that happens.. unless we run out of oil completely.”

    Check out the rise in the cost of food over the last year, not just the cost of fuel to move it but the cost of energy and petrochemicals in the planting, harvesting, processing, shipping, storage and most of all in the packaging.

    “the supply chains won’t go away .. they’ll just get more efficient and/or pass on higher costs.”

    YES

    “Gasoline could be $10 a gallon and trucks would still deliver – no?”

    Yes, but less stuff, shorter distances. When rolling warehouses become more expensive and Big Boxes less attractive because of a fair allocation of costs (See PART III of THE PROBLEM WITH CARS) the picture changes.

    “A truck that carries 10,000 pound can deliver that load in a 100 miles for about $75 worth of fuel at $3 a gallon. At $10 a gallon, that load would cost $400 to deliver but when you allocate out the costs over 10,000 pounds… the difference is literally pennies per item.”

    But see earlier note on the embedded costs of each item.

    “right?”

    No

    “the rails must think so too because they are shedding all the rail rights-of-way that are not mainline routes…

    “many if not most of the spurs to smaller towns and cities are being abandoned.. and I would have thought that if there was, in the minds of the rail companies.. even the slightest idea that they’d need those rights-of-ways that they’d never get rid of them.. because going back later and reacquiring rights-of-way would be very expensive .. probably prohibitively (unless the government subsidizes it).”

    Based on my experience negotiating with New York Central in the 70s and others since, I beleive you start on the wrong foot: “the rails (railroads) must think…)

    They do not, at least not in the way or at the level you assume.

    You will note that the Core of every NUR even in the US of A (where 85 percent of the citizens of the US of A work and where nearly as many of them live) has rail service inside the Clear Edge.

    EMR

  18. Every spring I go to the store and buy six coconuts. I then plant the coconuts in my back yard and wait for the palm trees to show up. Despite all this effort I still don’t have any palm trees.

    But this year will be different. I’ll go to the store and buy a can of olives. Then, I’ll plant the olives in my back yard. Soon, I’ll be selling olive oil to my neighbors.

    😉

    “Now something new on the horizon. Fred who farms the south slope of Near-By Hill and makes Buffalo cheese is setting up a sheltered / climate controled / heated with waste place to grow a couple of dozen olive trees and press his own oil. He will sell it at the market along with his Buffalo cheese…”.

    Mr. Risse – aren’t olives just about the worst example of locally grown produce? Can they really be econmically grown outside of a place with a Mediterranian climate (like Spain or California)? I grow a lot of unusual plants and trees in my yard. I have a greenhouse. Are olive trees really a possibility in Virginia?

  19. Anonymous Avatar

    It takes fifteen years before you get your first olive, according to my friend with an olive plantation.

    The real reason you can’t afford to grow many things here is not ecause of the climate or the shipping.

    It is the labor and the land. I can buy flowers flown in from South America cheaper than I can grow them here, and it almost doesn’t matter how high the fuel costs are.

    Mother Earth News and such homesteading magazines are full f stories of people who go to great and extravagant lengths to be self sufficient, off the grid, etc. etc. etc.

    Some of the exploits and “savings” are almost comical. But, if it makes you happy, go for it.

    You have two cave men and one is good at fishing, the other at gathering fruit from the high trees. They are both better off to specialize and trade than if each fishes AND gathers. The cave men figured this out millenia ago, but EMR hasn’t yet.

    The drive for traded goods is enormous, and it will support almost any cost of transport, as history shows. Camel caravans trekking for weeks to deliver cakes of salt. Sailing ships circling the globe at tremendous risk and expense.

    More than 95% of the population has shopped in a big box during the last year. I just don’t see the point of railing against something that has been so succesful and lowered costs so much.

    RH

  20. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    I think if the world is not flat.. it is much more so than it used to be and that the free market more sophisticated and more efficient than it has ever been. (though Mr. Florida now claims that Friedman was partially wrong because the world is REALLY ‘spiky’)
    http://www.usnews.com/articles/news/national/2008/02/14/qa-richard-florida.html?s_cid=rss:qa-richard-florida.html

    but no matter

    If oil runs dry.. they will find another way to maintain mobility and to continue to grow olives a 1000 miles from where they are consumed and you’ll continue to have dozens of choices of many different kinds… probably not in glass but in something much lighter – as a result of getting rid of weight to compensate for higher fuel costs. ( perhaps coal to plastic).

    our economy is no longer our Dads Oldsmobile.. and News Flash – we won’t be going back either.

    If Walmart goes away because of the price of oil.. it will be the LEAST of our problems….

  21. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: locally grown

    Let’s take a place like Goose Bay, Canada and talk about locally grown food.

    I think one could probably claim that Goose Bay is a NUR.

    It certainly has a VERY clear edge!

    but what really strikes a visitor to that place .. is what comes in on the Ferry (and at the airport) because the only road to there is 200 miles of gravel… without a single service station or accommodations. The only thing on the way there is black flies, blueberries and wild critters.. millions of acres of 15-20ft tall evergreens.

    Without getting into the guns, germs, steel conundrum … Goose Bay has pretty much been inhabited for a long time.. so one could fairly say that such habitation was SUSTAINED … indeed multi-generational.

    and safe to say.. neither olives nor olive oil.. made appearances there prior to the presence of non-native settlers who brought with them a wide array of goods on ships that did not burn oil for fuel.

    If anything… modern day methods of packaging and preserving foodstuffs would allow trade to continue .. even if we reverted to sail power deliveries.

    What is it that would keep future deliveries of long-shelf-life products from Goose Bay?

    I cannot see them not continuing to receive outside provisioning (from external USRs) in any scenario except perhaps the utter collapse of civilization.

    Further.. what exactly would Goose Bay have to do – to evolve to the classical concept of a sustainable NUR if it is not already?

    We’ve agreed.. that NURs by themselves are not sustainable without USRs.

    If a USR supplies foodstuffs to a NUR – then why not multiple USRs each providing the foodstuffs unique to that USR .. and what is it that states that USRs cannot be 1000 miles away from the NUR it supplies?

  22. E M Risse Avatar

    Prior version of this post has been corrected to include omissions.

    Groveton:

    “Mr. Risse – aren’t olives just about the worst example of locally grown produce?”

    They probably are about the worst example for the very reason I noted in my response to Larry. Keep out the Sunlight and the oxygen and you can ship olive oil long distances and store it for long periods.

    The only reason olives were noted was that Larry said he could not get olive oil if location-variable costs were fairly allocated.

    If we were doing a text on local crops we would have choosen a much different example. Like year-around tomatos that are now grown right here in Greater Warrenton-Fauquier.

    The reason you have had little luck with the coconuts is that the imported ones are irradiated before importation and distribtuion.

    We have had good luck with smuggled ones and so have others.

    Back to olives:

    “Can they really be econmically grown outside of a place with a Mediterranian climate (like Spain or California)?”

    That depends on a lot of factors but since most of the olive products including olives, olive oil and olive wood are stable in transport, I suspect the answer is “no” but as Larry points out, it depends on the costs.

    “I grow a lot of unusual plants and trees in my yard. I have a greenhouse.”

    You Dooryarders (and some Clustermates) have told a lot of folks about those unusual plants. You would have more privacy if you had a much smaller lot or a much bigger one. :>)

    “Are olive trees really a possibility in Virginia?”

    Buffalo Mozzarella, another great Italian food import item is also hard to produce here because of the restrictions on the importation of Water Buffalo. But the owner of Blue Ridge Dairy who has been trying to get around the ban for years has a very good substitue.

    Now since he has the south side of the hill…

    EMR

  23. Anonymous Avatar

    Larry:

    Excellent comment and observation on Goose Bay.

    It isn’t always obvious what is sustainable and not. Goose Bay appears to be sustainable, since it has been sustained – as you point out by one means or another.

    The cry of “Unsustainable!” is a hollow one. In the first place, we can’t agree on what it is or isn’t.

    In the second place, so what? If something is here now, it is sustainable now.

    Even if I agree my life is unsustainable, what incentive have I to give it up?

    RH

  24. E M Risse Avatar

    Larry:

    I believe someone is posting silly comments under your name. An example:

    “re: locally grown

    “Let’s take a place like Goose Bay, Canada and talk about locally grown food.

    “I think one could probably claim that Goose Bay is a NUR.

    “It certainly has a VERY clear edge!”

    First, “Clear Edge” is Capitalized.

    Second the real Larry Gross is smart enough to know, having read the definitions in GLOSSARY that Goose Bay (in Labrador or elsewhere in Cananda) is not a NUR.

    We have not yet taken the time to look carefully at Canada’s NURs and USRs but there may be a maximum of six or seven NURs that fall all or part in the nation-state.

    We know for example that Vancouver is a Subregion of the Puget Sound NUR. Toronto NUR may be co-terminus with the agglomeration of coterminous NURs that strech from Hamton Roads NUR to Boston NUR and west to Buffalo NUR.

    The point is, the whole post by “Larry Gross” is silly. It has the stench of an intentional attempt to waste our time and that of readers who are attemting to understand the dynamics of human settlement patterns.

    EMR

  25. Anonymous Avatar

    And yet Goose Bay is there, and has been for a long time.

    Go figure.

    Some realities are hard to ignore.

  26. Anonymous Avatar

    One day by Goose Bay
    I walked along the shore
    I didn’t want to be a bore
    But my mind had such a chore
    The Bay wasn’t like Big Sur
    Or any other NUR
    Was it co-terminus?
    Or simply agglomeration-us
    I don’t want to confuse us
    So I looked in EMR’s Glossary-ius
    My bet I wanted to hedge
    Wow, I learned
    It is Clear Edge!
    The Goose Bay NUR
    Is bigger than
    The biggest star!
    Starting up in Labrador
    It runs from door to door!
    My point, I know
    Is silly
    But up there, it is
    So damned chilly!

    Peter Galuszka, aka the Dr. Seuss of Human settlement Patterns

  27. Anonymous Avatar

    At 7:59 AM, Anonymous said…
    How interesting.

    When I reported a Moorman speech last Fall on this blog and reported some of the very same things as in the WSJarticle, I was accused of being a shill for chamber of commerce types.

    What’s changed?

    Peter Galuszka

    What changed is that you forgot what you wrote about.

    Your prior post “Forget Passenger Rial” was an attack on use of rail for passenger travel.

    You got your head handed to you for good reason.

  28. Anonymous Avatar

    Anonymous,
    N I did not forget about what I wrote about and did not “have my head handed to me for a reason.”

    I reported that Moorman said there is not the political will to fund passenger rail. I think he’s right although I’d love it if there were passenger rail. You are putting words in my mouth.

    I got blasted for noting that Norfolk Southern was spending much of its own private capital to upgrade freight lines. Part of that was to take advantage of foreign imports.

    I can handle your opinions,but please try to get your facts right.
    Peter Galuszka

  29. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    methinks sometimes that NURs and USRs are ever changing.. ever morphing concepts that twist and turn every time another contradiction is encountered…

    Is there no clear criteria to pass judgment on Goose Bay as a NUR or not – and if not .. what are the things that are missing?

    and I’m starting to wonder if USRs are amorphous concept/devices to contain all the things that a prospective NUR must have but does not in order to be a true NUR.

    Call me an open-minded skeptic on this.

    It would be nice to have ..even a limited list of NURs along with the things those NURs don’t have and which USRs provide them.

    sorry.. home grown tomatoes in Warrenton .. don’t answer the question about tomatoes in Toronto… or olives in Edmonton or Alaska King Crabs in Jacksonville Florida.

    ships that freeze fresh-caught fish.. that put that product on an 18-wheeler bound for Kansas City are what? are they USRs for the Kansas City NUR?

    wait.. I know.. Kansas City is not a NUR but a combo NUR/USR because it’s ALSO a USR for steaks in Bethesda, Md.

    or perhaps.. because cattle are trucked from Iowa to Kansas City where they are then “converted” into steaks.. and then shipped to Bethesda AND Warrenton..

    man .. this is getting really confusing …

    help me. help me. EMR.. I’ve fallen off the NUR wagon and I can’t climb back on…

    🙂

    🙂

  30. Anonymous Avatar

    Freight rail and passenger rail have the same problem when it comes down to individual trucks or cars.

    At some level, they can’t compete.
    Oil or no Oil.

    RH

  31. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Peter – you have a gift!

    🙂

  32. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    re: need for more land transportation facilities (highways) to serve high volumes of port shipments.

    Why do we need highways to move trucks with Intermodal Freight which are shipping containers full of one or a limited array of products not in a form suitable for delivery to retail outlets?

    so.. why not more rail infrastructure to move that intermodal freight inland?

    “The TRB committee that examined policy options for intermodal freight transportation concluded that public investment in freight facilities is complex. These types of facilities (rail yards, port terminals, and truck terminals) have usually been financed exclusively by the private sector. The committee concluded that introducing public funds into this mix could undermine the “user pays” principle that has been fundamental to highway finance, fuel interstate rivalries, and come to be demanded by private-sector firms as a substitute for formerly private investment. “

    From: “Policy Options for Intermodal Freight Transportation”

    http://www.trb.org/news/blurb_detail.asp?id=2671

  33. Anonymous Avatar

    “The committee concluded that introducing public funds into this mix could undermine the “user pays” principle that has been fundamental to highway finance…”

    Since WHEN? Since the last time we escalated the fuel tax?

    The “User Pays” principle has NEVER been fundamental to highway finance, let alone transit, or transportation in general.

    Let’s get real here. We have restoration or “artificial” square riggers being constructed with “tansportation” funds.

    I don’t doubt the issue is complex, but to dismiss it with a comment that is simplistic, and wrong, just doesn’t cut it.

    RH

    RH

  34. Jim Bacon Avatar

    Larry, at the risk of getting this wrong and confusing matters even more, let me take a stab at answering your question regarding Goose Bay and New Urban Regions. Presumably by Goose Bay you are referring to the town of Happy Valley-Goose Bay in Labrador, a town with a reported population of about 8,000, the main economic underpinning of which is a Canadian Air Force base.

    In EMR’s nomenclature, Goose Bay is way too small to qualify as a New Urban Region. What is the lower population limit of a New Urban Region? Good question, I don’t know but it is certainly much, much higher than 8,000. At an absolute minimum, a New Urban Region is as large as a Metropolitan Statistical Area, although most smaller MSAs would not qualify either. I think it would be worthwhile to ask EMR if, in his mind (it is his terminology after all) whether a NUR has a minimum population.

    (What I’m still a little fuzzy about is the difference between a NUR and an MSA. I believe, and am willing to stand corrected, that EMR sees NURs as geographically larger than MSAs, encompassing outlying counties that might not be included in an MSA if a significant percentage of the population commutes to work centers inside the MSA.)

    What, then, is Goose Bay? Clearly, it is an urbanized area of a sort. EMR has nomenclature to cover that — Goose Bay is an “urban enclave” within an Urban Support Region. “Urban enclave” is another way of saying “urbanized area,” or “town” or “small city,” to pick phrases from popular usage.

    Why doesn’t EMR just use the phrases “small urban area” or “town” or “small city”? His problem is that those terms, though in common usage, are imprecise and have different meanings to different people, therefore they actually obstruct communication. His goal is to construct a vocabulary with more precise meanings.

    I have endeavored to incorporate EMR’s vocabulary into my own writing when it doesn’t come across as jargon and when it won’t throw off readers unfamiliar with his definitions. The vocabulary can be intimidating to people who encounter it for the first time. But EMR has spent half a lifetime thinking about the vocabulary of land use issues, and he makes a strong case that everyday words often do impede understanding. If you do not like EMR’s words, or think they don’t make meaningful distinctions, then make your case.

    I agree that it might be useful for purposes of discussion on this blog to have a list of NURs in North America (or the U.S. and Canada at least). Maybe EMR can knock out such a list when he has a bit of spare time.

  35. Larry Gross Avatar
    Larry Gross

    Jim – thank for the observations and the suggestions.

    YES.. just a simple list…

    and perhaps some criteria that helps in understanding why some places are NURs and some are not and, important to me – what are the things that need to happen for potential NURs to mature into NURs.

    The census folks use some specific criteria in deciding if an area is a MSA.

    I’m pretty sure EMR disputes their methodology but
    what I’d like to see the criteria and methodology for NURs… compared and contrasted with MSAs…

    Perhaps a work-in-progress FAQ might be helpful… (that starts with the vocabulary).. and expands
    as more questions are asked – and answered.

    An FAQ would be an asset to BR and I would think to anyone who wanted to know more …

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