Will Dominion Fool Us Again with SMR Cost Bill?

Artist rendering of a NuScale small modular reactor plant, proposed but now not being built in Idaho.

By Steve Haner

Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me.  A utility-backed bill to stick electricity ratepayers with the high-risk costs of developing small (modular) nuclear reactors, approved by a Senate committee Friday, is a “fool me twice” example.  Shame on the General Assembly if it falls for it.

The utilities, well Dominion Energy Virginia at least, pulled the same trick in 2014 and a compliant General Assembly stuck its ratepayers with about $400 million in costs to develop a third reactor at North Anna.  Did they promise to build that when pushing the bill? Yes.  Did they ever build it?  No.

Speaking that truth to the Assembly that year, that Dominion had no intention of building North Anna 3 and was simply gaming its own customers, was uncomfortable for me and I paid a price.  In a room full of rent-seeking lobbyists and corporate executives, however, the other opponents and I were right.

Under this legislation the same outcome is very likely, and the bill may never produce a small modular reactor.  There is nothing in the bill forcing Dominion or Appalachian Power Company in Western Virginia to build anything.  The Assembly members in love with the idea of an SMR have totally lost sight of their responsibility to protect their constituents.   Quelle Surprise.

The bill before Senate Commerce and Labor this morning was Senate Bill 454, sponsored by David Marsden, D-Fairfax. The comparable bill from 2014 was sponsored by then-Senator Walter Stosch, R-Henrico, one of my former bosses in my political staff days.  A good summary story from the time in the once-more- vigorous Richmond Times-Dispatch is still on its archive.

Apparently the 2024 introduced bill was dropped at the last minute and the committee was given a new substitute version, the classic ambush by substitute play.  The substitute version expands the list of costs that Dominion or Appalachian can get recovered from ratepayers even if no plant is built to add a profit margin.  Again, anybody surprised?

Even the offshore wind boondoggle wasn’t given this treatment because that project was going to be built.  These special rules demanded are all the proof anybody should need that SMRs remain uncharted, highly risky territory and the company bosses are not at all committed.  Once again, they will protect their profits and stockholders first and last.

As is far too common, the impact statement from the SCC itself makes no mention of the potential ratepayer costs this bill would impose, let alone tried to project them.

The bill cleared on an 8-7 vote.  There was a House version of the bill that is already dead, but this new substitute – which the utilities rose in committee to support – could revive the idea.  The Virginia Manufacturers Association and my former employer, Huntington Ingalls Industries, testified for it.  Governor Glenn Youngkin (R) is also a fan of this technology, but if it lands on his desk, he should resist it.

No SMR project should proceed, and no customer should be charged a dime for it, until and unless the State Corporation Commission has held a full, open proceeding under oath and determined the project itself is needed, reasonable and prudent.  As critics of this bill pointed out, a similar law in South Carolina stuck ratepayers there with billions of dollars of costs on a failed project that produced zero kilowatts of electricity.

During the 2007 negotiations to return Virginia to full electricity regulation, utilities asked for and received permission to begin to charge customers for new generation projects while they were underway.  Under traditional utility law, customers are not charged until the power starts to flow.  But the 2007 law still required full SCC approval of the underlying project before customers could be charged during construction.

I’m not the only person who was in the room where that happened who remembers that.  It seems I may be the only one who still understands how important it is to protect consumers by maintaining that approach.

If America, the world actually, wants a 21st century economy without fossil fuels, and still wants 24-7-365 reliable power, nuclear is the way.  Other countries are far ahead of us in recognizing this.  Watch this great update.  The U.S. regulators need to agree on one, maybe two, full size reactor designs, and one or two modular designs, and then when 30 or 40 such projects are underway the benefits of serial reviews and construction will lower the costs and risks.

The hearing Friday saw several environmental groups standing to oppose the bill, citing their concern for the ratepayer cost. “There is no electricity at the end of this bill,” one said, mirroring my 2014 argument.  It was clear some of the Republicans doubted their sincerity and assumed they just don’t like nuclear power.  There is no larger nuclear fan than I am (although many know the industry better), and I also think this is a very bad bill.


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63 responses to “Will Dominion Fool Us Again with SMR Cost Bill?”

  1. Paul Sweet Avatar
    Paul Sweet

    “Once again, they will protect their profits and stockholders first and last.”

    They aren’t doing such a hot job of protecting stockholders. I’ve been a stockholder since VEPCO started their customer stock purchase plan in the 70s, and have reinvested my dividends since then. My Dominion stock was worth about $78 a share the end of 2021, $63 the end of 2022, and $47 the end of 2023. I might be underwater soon.

    1. how_it_works Avatar
      how_it_works

      My Exelon stock is up 4.62% since about the end of 2021.

      I’d never invest in Dominion.

      On that note, I wonder what the performance of a hypothetical mutual fund that only invested in Virginia-based corporations would be…

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        I have no idea what is in the portfolio. I have no idea how to pick or not since I have little knowledge of how the stock market performs so I leave that to a guy who is supposed to know.

      2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        People don’t tend to invest in utilities for growth…

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          this and a litany of other aspects of investing that involved knowledge required to make informed decisions.

          I’d be a fool to think I know how the market works and make decisions on what to invest in, if I had only rudimentary information.

          Even folks that make a living at this, make mistakes but at some point, one has to decide if they are going to do this themselves or have someone whose profession it is, do it on your behalf.

          I did it once before. I bought tech stocks on Etrade many years ago. I figured if it was tech, it was a no brainer. Major names like IBM, Microsoft, etc… seemed like a gimme!

          Lucky for me, it was money I could afford lose and I did because what a particular company does or not may not be tightly connected to their stock price per se and can be volatile based on things I’d never know – like a small startup that disrupts an industry… etc.. Trends and little notice things can be in play to include interest rates set by the Fed. Not something the average person with little background should be doing IMO unless it’s sort of a “hobby” with “mad money”.

  2. Teddy007 Avatar

    Maybe Virginia can spend as much on an SMR develop as it is going to spend on sports arenas and stadiums.

    1. DJRippert Avatar

      Both should be structured as loans with the owners (Dominion shareholders or Monumental Sports) liable for repayment if the predicted benefits to society are not achieved.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        What not let SMRs develop in the private sector and sell their power to buyers like Dominion? Why does Dominion need to build SMRs if the power they produce is more expensive than gas, wind, solar?

      2. LarrytheG Avatar

        So, down Fredericksburg way, the city entered into an agreement with Wegmans to essentially discount/share the sales tax the city would have received from Wegmans if Wegmans agreed to build a store.

        In other words, the city offered an “incentive” for them to build in the city.

        The premise was that Wegmans would draw traffic that other more common businesses that already exist in the area would not, that Wegmans was unique in that regard.

        Since it was/is unique and will attract customers beyond the city, there would be “spin-off” shopping also. Come to Wegmans and shop at Lowes or get fuel, or go to a restaurant.

        I get the impression, I could be wrong, that there is something along these lines involved with the arena – i.e. “spin-off” economic activities that would not occur with other development.

        Wrong?

      3. The 100’s of millions doing to support infrastructure around any arena and stadium, then no, it is not all loans. And the loans will be paid back with higher taxes. Stadiums are a suckers bet because every dollar spent on a sports ticket is a dollar not spent on some other form of entertainment.

      4. LarrytheG Avatar

        So, down Fredericksburg way, the city entered into an agreement with Wegmans to essentially discount/share the sales tax the city would have received from Wegmans if Wegmans agreed to build a store.

        In other words, the city offered an “incentive” for them to build in the city.

        The premise was that Wegmans would draw traffic that other more common businesses that already exist in the area would not, that Wegmans was unique in that regard.

        Since it was/is unique and will attract customers beyond the city, there would be “spin-off” shopping also. Come to Wegmans and shop at Lowes or get fuel, or go to a restaurant.

        I get the impression, I could be wrong, that there is something along these lines involved with the arena – i.e. “spin-off” economic activities that would not occur with other development.

        Wrong?

  3. William O'Keefe Avatar
    William O’Keefe

    The best way to reign in Dominion is to allow real competition and to force them to use their own capital instead of having taxpayers on the hook from the get-go. But I am dreaming.

    1. DJRippert Avatar

      You’re dreaming so long as Dominion can make unlimited contributions to our state politicians.

  4. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
    f/k/a_tmtfairfax

    Under traditional utility regulation, a utility doesn’t get to put its investment in new plant into the rate base and earn its allowed rate of return on the investment until construction is complete and the plant goes into service. However, regulators must provide recognition of a utility’s costs during construction.

    This is done through the use of “allowance for funds used during construction” or “AFUDC.” AFDUC is a regulatory method of compensating a utility for the financing costs it incurs during construction of new facilities. AFUDC is calculated by determining a cost of capital, consisting of weighted debt and equity components, and multiplying this by the construction costs (called construction work in progress or CWIP) accumulated during the construction of an asset. As the costs of building the new plant are incurred, they are booked into CWIP.

    Why this is not done is Virginia is because Virginia has become just like New Jersey or Chicago in terms of corruption. What a shame.

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      AFUDC is also the term in Virginia, but here it is complicated by the use of these stand-alone, siloed rate adjustment clauses, or RACs, which are outside of the traditional rate base. What this proposed bill does is allow Dom or Apco to get a RAC to cover these costs and profits.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        A couple of things to understand.

        NOVEC buys all of it’s power (from PJM I assume) and generates none of it. IF I recall, it’s rates are about equal to DOm or lower.

        SO when does Dom need t build it’s own plants rather than just buy from PJM like NOVEC?

        1. how_it_works Avatar
          how_it_works

          NOVEC does, in fact, have some generation they own:

          “Our power supply team is exploring innovative ways to incorporate even more renewables into our energy portfolio each year, including the 49.9 megawatts NOVEC generates at its Halifax County Biomass Electric Generating Facility, 6.7 megawatts it acquires from a Gas-to-Energy Project, and the more than 9 megawatts it receives through customers participating in its rapidly growing net metering program. “

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            Right. I guess I was thinking about coal or gas plants or nukes like Dom has in addition to solar they both have. But I suspect solar and bio are not a huge percent of the power that NoVec provides, that they buy a lot of it wholesale and low enough in cost that their cost to customers is competitive with Dom and probably lower if compared to ApCo. So the question remains. If NoVEc can mostly just buy wholesale power and keep prices low and not neat to build their own generation, why can’t Dom? Why does Dom need to build more generation?

    2. DJRippert Avatar

      So, TMT … this corruption in Virginia has been going on a long time. What would be needed to get the voters angry enough to do something about it?

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        like what?

        1. DJRippert Avatar

          Demand that the politicians for whom they vote join 46 other US states and cap political contributions.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            How corrupt is VIrginia really? I just don’t see it. Other than Dominion, what other companies and related get obvious special treatment from the GA or Gov? What laws and regulations in Virginia are the obvious products of corruption?

            Compared to that guy running for POTUS, Virginia pols are pure as the driven snow!

          2. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
            f/k/a_tmtfairfax

            Larry, the largest amount of the costs to build the Silver Line are being paid by Dulles Toll Road users, even though the purpose of the train’s route was to enrich landowners by giving them massive increases in the density to which they could build. And you may recall that the entire project did not meet weakened performance standards for federal funding.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar

            TMT – I see this: ” How is DC Metro funded?
            Fares and other revenue fund 57.6% of the Metro’s daily operations while state and local governments fund the remaining 42.4%. Since the Metro’s inception, the federal government has provided grants for 65% of the system’s capital costs.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Metropolitan_Area_Transit_Authority#:~:text=Fares%20and%20other%20revenue%20fund,of%20the%20system's%20capital%20costs.

            And I see this: ” Dulles Toll Road At-a-Glance
            The Virginia Department of Transportation transferred the operation of the Toll Road to the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority on November 1, 2008. The Airports Authority has been the sole operator of the Toll Road since October 1, 2009.”. A toll road has to collect enough in tolls to pay for maintenance and
            operations before it has extra left over and there is only so much people will pay before they won’t and if the charge is too much, they’ll not even
            collect enough to pay for it’s operation.

            At any rate, why do you say the above is “corrupt”? What is the corruption besides people that don’t like the way it operates?

          4. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
            f/k/a_tmtfairfax

            I’m talking about construction costs. The original route was down I-66 and then in the medians of the Dulles Connector Route and the Dulles Toll Road. There would be two stations connecting with the north end of Tysons. Fairfax County and the Commonwealth, working with landowners, changed the route in the EIS to leaving the Access Road and going through Tysons on Rte. 123, turning west on Rte. 7 and then going back into the DTR. They proposed three stations.

            Later, when Gerry Connolly was both Chairman of the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors and an SAIC VP, a fourth Tysons station was added on Route 7, right in front of SAIC’s HQ building.

            The plan for constructing the Silver Line could not pass the fed’s cost-benefit test for federal funding. Senator John Warner was able to amend the law creating a weaker test for the Silver Line. But it still failed. The feds refused to fund it.

            Landowners and other local rent seekers were able to get all sorts of Virginia elected officials (R & D alike) to lobby the Bush administration, which finally caved and tossed federal dollars at a project that was not cost-effective.

            On the state side, Governor Kaine’s administration was seemingly not willing to provide required state funding for the project. The rent seekers and their elected officials panicked. They talked Kaine into providing state funding by transferring the DTR from VDOT to MWAA and allowing rate hikes for the DTR to pay the state’s share. (The state did later appropriate some funds directly to the Silver Line, but the bulk of the state funding came from higher tolls.)

            This happened even though the original plan was to end tolls once the DTR bonds were redeemed.

            Later, a deal was made to put the burden of cost overruns on the Commonwealth – DTR users.

            Dominion, SAIC, Tysons landowners, etc., corruption, corruption, corruption.

          5. LarrytheG Avatar

            TMT – if you look here: ” The original funding plan was that the federal government, through grants from the Federal Transit Administration (FTA), would pay 50 percent of the entire project cost (i.e., both Phases I and II), the Commonwealth of Virginia/the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority (MWAA) through grants and the Dulles Toll Road toll revenues would pay 25 percent, and local governments would pay the final 25 percent. Those percentages were subsequently revised as the federal amount remained constant at $900M and the other percentages increased respectively (Fairfax County 40120).

            Overall, the two phases of the Project, totaling $5.7B, will have been funded with a combination of tolls, commercial tax districts, and state and federal grants, as shown in Table 1.”

            https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ipd/value_capture/resources/value_capture_resources/edc-5_resources/webster_rail_b.aspx#:~:text=Overall%2C%20the%20two%20phases%20of,as%20shown%20in%20Table%201.

            IT seems to show the Feds still put money on it.

            But this does not mean corruption.

            There are highways the Feds will help fund and there highways they will not help fund if they feel they do not
            meet standards or are not cost-effective.

            Same thing with VDOT’s Smart Scale. If a project does not meet cost-effectiveness criteria and scores low
            and unlikely to get funded.

            That’s not corruption IMO. The Feds (and Virginia) and localities and companies do cost-studies on various
            projects and decide if they are cost-effective “enough” or not. Some things can get changed, as a result.

            The primary point with METRO IMO is that it’s not that different from most urban rail projects in terms
            of costs and cost-effectiveness. It’s always an issue and I know of none that operate at a profit or even break even. Most bus transit systems also operate at a loss.

            METRO has it’s problems and challenges with both construction and operational costs, no question and they
            need their feet held to the fire but no one in a responsible position says that the region can do with METRO,
            not even Youngkin!

            The funny thing is that few argue that other needed services, like fire and police, EMS, water/sewer, etc are “cost-effective”.
            It’s often taken at face value that the cost is the cost – and I’ve seen almost no efforts to, for instance, do a cost
            study on the police so we can get a more cost-effective operation.

            Why is transit and METRO the only focus?

          6. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
            f/k/a_tmtfairfax

            Larry, do you think that projects should be funded by the federal government when they don’t pass applicable cost-benefit standards? That’s what this is all about. The Silver Line did not pass any federal cost-benefit standards. But it was funded anyway. And every dollar spent on these projects is a dollar not spent on other projects that have passed applicable cost-benefit standards.

            Don’t get me wrong. The DC area needs Metro. But that need did not justify federal funding of the Silver Line as that project was modified over time to enrich certain landowners.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar

            TMT – the applicable cost-benefit standards are not cast-in-stone and they can and do vary and they will be difference for different things and different states. Just because a road does not meat a Federal cost-benefit standard does not mean it would not for the state. It’s not an absolute standard no matter what. And yes, the Feds can and do waive standards some time.

            TO give you another example. Virginia has cost-effectiveness standards for transportation standards also, and many roads on initial design fail to meet those standards and are not funded. The applicants go back and try to re-design them to meet cost-effectiveness standards or they may change the scope and try to get partial funding for part of it and fund the rest another way.

            I agree with you about enriching landowners but if you want scale for this, consider how many new roads and interchanges benefit landowners. Should the govt for both rail and transit buy the nearby land and lease it
            to help pay for the infrastructure like they do in Asia? I think they should but they don’t usually.

            The issue worthy of debate is how much SHOULD Metro cost and I don’t know that we can get that answer by looking
            at METRO in isolation. We can compare it to other similar projects to try to come up with metrics like cost per ride or some such but it won’t stop the need for METRO and it’s sorta like arguing that Dulles Airport should have not cost
            so much and people have to pay larger fees than they should for using it. Or some road… we don’t do that in general but we did for the Express lanes and by definition they do pay for themselves and not without lots of people complaining that the cost to them as users is too high and too much profit, etc.

            What’s the point of looking back on METRO costs instead of letting that go and concentrate on going forward?

            It just seems to be continuing to beat METRO over the head by folks who disagree with the concept of METRO even
            as most others say it is a critically needed infrastructure. Even some GOP agree including Youngkin.

      2. how_it_works Avatar
        how_it_works

        “What would be needed to get the voters angry enough to do something about it?”

        For most of them? A brain transplant.

        It’s hard to get angry about something you neither care about nor understand.

  5. LarrytheG Avatar

    I’m trying to understand where the advocacy for nuclear in general is coming from if this is what it looks like.

    Over, and over, and over, we hear from the anti solar/wind that nukes are the way to go.

    Are nukes NOT the way to go?

    1. DJRippert Avatar

      Nuke is a middle ground. As the timeframe for affordable solar and wind energy extends and as it becomes more and more obvious that anthropogenic global warming is real, the nuclear middle ground starts to look better and better.

      Society can get to clean energy but not in one giant leap.

      Even a child knows not to eat a marshmallow in a single bite.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        If gas is cheaper than nukes, why nukes?

        Nukes are primarily for baseload. Unlike gas, they cannot quickly ramp up and down as the grid demand or generation varies. That’s where gas comes in.

        The use of solar/wind requires gas to back it up when it can’t maintain or increase.

        Nukes won’t help at all wind/solar.

        1. DJRippert Avatar

          “If gas is cheaper than nukes, why nukes?”

          “… as it becomes more and more obvious that anthropogenic global warming is real.”

          Like I wrote, middle ground.

        2. William Chambliss Avatar
          William Chambliss

          The current generation of nukes is, as you note, primarily baseload and not load following. These new technologies are supposed to be much more flexible. Incidentally, even large units can cycle some; France does it with its fleet, for instance.

          Here is where storage will be a vital component on the grid–taking excess intermittent generation and time shifting its delivery to later in the day.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            I thought that was true but what I read is that even SMRs cannot load follow. If they cannot do that, and the cost more than larger ones per unit of power, then their value is diminished IMO. And yes, more and more – storage – if it can advance , becomes more and more valuable. IF we develop cost-effective storage, wind/solar become “dispatchable”.

            I’m not ruling out other technologies coming , perhaps even hydrogen. At some point in the future, some of us still alive will look back and wonder what all the drama was about.

  6. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    Thanks for your coverage and your advocacy. There is no doubt in my mind that nuclear is the way to go. And I agree with you that we customers should have to have pay for Dominion’s development costs until, at least, after the SCC has heard the case and Dominion is committed to construction of the project. Otherwise, the utility could rack up hundreds of millions in costs that we would have to repay, with profits!, and have nothin to show for it.

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Billions. Billions.

      Those with longer memories than mine will remember Dominion (then VEPCO, and actually it is still VEPCO) faced that dilemma with some of its earlier nuclear projects, a massive bill for plants not built. Ratepayers did end up paying part of the cost (1/3 I think), but shareholders suffered too, and then there was a tax write off. It was the SCC that decided how to allocate the sunk costs. Not politicians fat with campaign $$$.

    2. DJRippert Avatar

      “And I agree with you that we customers should have to have pay for Dominion’s development costs until, at least, after the SCC has heard the case and Dominion is committed to construction of the project.”

      I assume you meant “… should not have to pay …”.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Have you heard of customers bills with APCO of late?

        Makes Dom look wonderful!

      2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        Oops! I need to proofread my comments more closely, obviously. Thanks.

    3. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Billions. Billions.

      Those with longer memories than mine will remember Dominion (then VEPCO, and actually it is still VEPCO) faced that dilemma with some of its earlier nuclear projects, a massive bill for plants not built. Ratepayers did end up paying part of the cost (1/3 I think), but shareholders suffered too, and then there was a tax write off. It was the SCC that decided how to allocate the sunk costs. Not politicians fat with campaign $$$.

      1. William Chambliss Avatar
        William Chambliss

        The 2014 bill was to enable additional capital spending at NA so that Dom could control its balance sheet just enough to avoid a rate decrease. No one ever expected they would continue development past the next biennial review cycle.

        And a good thing too (well, comparatively); look at what Plant Vogtle has done to rates in Georgia.

        Basically, customers paid a few hundred million to avoid a few billion in capex.

      2. William Chambliss Avatar
        William Chambliss

        The 2014 bill was to enable additional capital spending at NA so that Dom could control its balance sheet just enough to avoid a rate decrease. No one ever expected they would continue development past the next biennial review cycle.

        And a good thing too (well, comparatively); look at what Plant Vogtle has done to rates in Georgia.

        Basically, customers paid a few hundred million to avoid a few billion in capex.

        1. Stephen Haner Avatar
          Stephen Haner

          I recall the promises to proceed with NA3 as if it were yesterday, Chambliss. But yes, all in the know knew gaming the rate case was job 1.

        2. Stephen Haner Avatar
          Stephen Haner

          I recall the promises to proceed with NA3 as if it were yesterday, Chambliss. But yes, all in the know knew gaming the rate case was job 1.

      3. Irene Leech Avatar
        Irene Leech

        As I recall, customers paid for a decade or longer for the partially built and then dismantled additional nuke at North Anna. I believe the time for repaying ended while we were in the frozen rates part of exploration of moving to a competitive market. That sum was never removed from base rates.

  7. walter smith Avatar
    walter smith

    Bring back Hollerin’ Henry Howell?
    Was it “Let’s keep the big boys honest”?

    1. DJRippert Avatar

      That was Howlin’ Henry Howell as I recall.

      1. walter smith Avatar
        walter smith

        Howlin’ is probably right. Sounds better. I was young!

  8. LarrytheG Avatar

    meanwhile over in APCO land:

    ” An Appalachian Power spokesperson explained December’s cold snap and the fuel rate increase pushed customers’ energy usage and bills higher this year.

    “There has been an increase in the rate, but we’ve also seen an increase in the usage which normally happens during those winter months,” Teresa Hamilton Hall said.

    WDBJ7 compared Shiflett’s energy usage from December and January over the last two years. She experienced a 21% increase in kilowatt hours (kWh) between December 2021, 2,863 kWh, and December 2022, 3,471 kWh. There was a 55% increase in the cost from $344.79 in 2021 to $533.09 in 2022.

    While comparing January 2022 to this past January, Shiflett saw a 15% increase in energy usage from 3,385 kWh to 3,878 kWh and a 50% increase in the cost from $417.23 in 2022 to $625.53 in 2023.”

    https://www.wdbj7.com/2023/03/21/low-temps-high-prices-an-investigation-into-high-appalachian-power-electricity-bills-how-lower-cost/

    that sounds like 15 or 16 cents a killowatt hour and as far as I know, a lot of ApCo’s power generation is coal.

  9. Dr. Havel nos Spine' Avatar
    Dr. Havel nos Spine’

    The entire question is “how large is the climate externality?” How much more for electricity will Virginia’s policymakers require Virginia’s homes and businesses to pay for electricity that does not cause GHG emissions? How will those extra costs in electric bills impact social well being in the Commonwealth? And will that extra money be well spent or will that extra spending have zero impact on future climate outcomes? Or perhaps you think that Virginia’s electric supply can be made reliable, affordable and carbon-free all at the same time? I have no answers; only questions.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      Well, for some, it’s not about how large, it’s about whether it exists as anything real and is not a hoax that does not merit any changes.

      One might think that even heavy skeptics might not rule out climate change 100%, that they may take a more “safe but sorry” approach allowing for the possibility, that something could be in play even if not certain, and start positioning so that if it does turn out to be a major threat, that we did allow for that possibility earlier on and act.

      The potential “harm” / “specter” of higher cost power seems overblown if one considers that power in California is very expensive and yet California remains so economically prosperous that if it were a country, it would be ranked 8th in the world.

      Or take most of the major inhabited islands in the world that burn imported diesel oil for electricity, often at twice the cost of fossil fuel generated power on the mainlands, and yet the islands tend to remain economically viable. Islands like Hawaii, but there are many others where electricity is very expensive compared to mainlands with native fossil fuels.

      What happens if electricity becomes more expensive on the mainlands? We already have that experience.
      People build more efficient structures and use more efficient appliances and lighting, etc, the very same thing that happens if gasoline becomes more expensive, they get more efficient vehicles. People adapt and use less. California uses somewhere around half as much electricity per capita than other states like Virginia.

      Finally, while we talk about nukes , we seldom seem to talk about the likely cost per kilowatt-hour if we built more nukes in Virginia, whether more big units or SMRs.

      I believe for many in Virginia, right now, we pay about 25 cents per hour for electricity. Compare that, for instance, to what we pay for cable TV or phone or internet. Pretty cheap compared to , say fuel for vehicles.

      We have uber cheap power compared to most of the world – including countries that produce many products that we import and buy despite their higher power costs. Things, we cannot build cheaper here even with lower power costs.

  10. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Apparently, it doesn’t matter. It’s just an election year issue. It’s all it will ever be, right up to fiery car crash.

  11. LarrytheG Avatar

    I would think as an issue with elected officials that the folks who currently get their power from ApCo would have more import than the SMR and related with Dom. Those folks are paying substantially more for electricity than those with Dominion or most of the other electric coops.

    ApCo seems to be in “coal” country but also fracking country so why would their power be so much more costly than Doms?

  12. LarrytheG Avatar

    One of the big areas where people can easily save energy is in rooms they are not using and in the whole house if they are away.

    Now possible with “connected”/programmable thermostat technology.

    Don’t have to turn off completely, just lower/increase the temp in the room or house if it’s not going to be in use.

    How many folks currently do this compared to how many do not and don’t see it as worth doing?

  13. LarrytheG Avatar

    Water and sewer these days is similar to electricity. The cost of providing water/sewer continues to increase as we discover stuff in the water that needs to be detected and removed prior to consumption, as well as stuff that is in the wastewater (like hormones) that needs to be mitigated.

    It’s not directly related to climate but it sorta works the same way in terms of cost to cleanup versus consumption versus how those using it can reduce their own costs – as opposed to insisting it’s the sole responsibility of the provider whether it be the company that supplies electricity or your water/sewer.

    So the question with regard to Dominion and costs is not that different than consumers who use ApCo or your own water/sewer provider.

    We like to hold them accountable for keeping costs down but in reality, consumption also drives costs (like having to add more power plants) – and we, as consumers, are part of that equation.

    If we use less power, Dom can’t claim they need more power plants as easily.

    Water and Sewer folks do right now, what Dominion and others should do IMO, which is provide “average” power at one price and for increased consumption, charge more.

    Water/sewer providers do this so they can hold off at having to build more facilities until more customers sign up – at which point, they charge a substantial amount of money, several thousand dollars to hook up. This is the cost per customer to pay for new facilities needed for new growth.

    To give an idea, this is how much it costs to hook up to water service in Spotsylvania:

    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/554f8ef55b9c5beddad1d61d35eb1a546adb9b5df4e3d66b07e946ba9d1f7d73.png

    One could ask, in a similar vein, how much it might cost to get a new electricity hookup in Virginia if Dom is having to build a new power plant to serve new growth? I bet the per capita cost is substantial if it is not spread across all existing ratepayers.

    1. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
      f/k/a_tmtfairfax

      But the goal is to use more and more electricity to replace gas stove, gasoline and diesel vehicles, gas water heaters and furnaces. This is not to say that more efficient appliances and vehicles won’t help. Our new home in Wake Forest built in 2021-22, is much more energy efficient than our home in McLean that was built in 1994 or our first home in McLean built in the 1960s.

      We get our water and sewer services from the City of Raleigh. These are the rate elements that are billed each month. Water Base Charge,
      Water Usage Tier 1, Watershed Protection, Water Infrastructure Replacement Charge,
      Waste Water Base Charge, Waste Water Usage, and Waste Water Infrastructure Replacement Charge. The biggest charge is always Waste Water usage.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Okay. Would we say “more”electricity rather than electricity rather than fossil fuel? Even electricity is more efficient
        than fossil fuels because of the economy of scale in generating it but also that fossil fuels must be not only mined and extracted, but refined and then delivered via pipeline and tank truck to end uses. If you just burned the fuel where it was refined and created electricity from it then “distributed” it via power lines, it would be more efficient, right? Why do we pipe natural gas from where it is fracked across Virginia to then burn at a power plant rather than burning the gas
        near where it is extracted? It’s more expensive to move the gas from where it is extracted to far away plants where it is burned. Why do we do that?

        1. f/k/a_tmtfairfax Avatar
          f/k/a_tmtfairfax

          In order to move to a virtually all-electric economy, we will need a large number of nuclear power plants to handle the base load. Hopefully, over time, these plants will be fusion-based. But now we need fission-based plants if we are going to generate massive amounts of electricity on a reliable basis and that does not cause large-scale greenhouse gas emissions.

          We will also need other sources of renewable electricity and more and more efficient “appliances.”

          But until then, we will as Obama said more than a decade ago, all of the above – other sources of energy.

          But we also must prevent the rent seekers from sucking out the public benefit from these changes.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            Until we get to modern nuclear, we will need a lot more solar with gas backup when solar is not available. We’ll
            still burn gas but a lot less of it. I’m in favor of all of it built by private with purchase power agreements but
            the nukes will obviously have to serve the states that they are built in and impact I would think.

            Everything I’ve read about SMRs is that they are essentially mini-nukes and not really new innovation.
            For instance, they apparently can only do baseload like the big nukes do which means they can’t
            run in tandem with renewables and ramp up and down when renewables vary. Gas will still have to
            do that. So it’s going to be a long time before we get “enough” nukes to handle most of the baseload unless
            we see some other breakthroughs for battery and/or hydrogen or other.

            If we continue to see better and better utility-scale batteries, it means they can store power generated from
            renewables and essentially the disadvantage of variability goes away and it boils down to building enough
            solar with batteries to get the job done.

            Right now, we do have some utilities primarily buying power on the “market” and not generating
            their own with guaranteed return on investment like Dominion and ApCo. I’m in favor of more and
            more private sector building and selling through purchase power agreements and auction in PJM.

  14. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
    energyNOW_Fan

    Ugh…well 2014 would be the CEO Tom Farrell reign at Dominion. He was well-liked by the stock market kings. Farrell was on Mad Money with Jim Cramer often, and Cramer swooned over Farrell and loved Dominion stock (literally due to the rate-payers being held hostage by GA and paying large profit margins to the monopoly).

    Now Dominion is in Cramer’s House of Pain, he does not like Dominion anymore. Not sure why, but current Dominion is part of the blue green energy coalition.

    I would say Farrell’s Dominion featured below average energy costs, with slightly above average rates, and with lots of energy use in Virginia (due to elec heat pumps) so Dominion could rake in the big bucks.

    Now the future looks like expensive energy cost – nothing but the highest imaginable cost power interests the Va. Dems (except Dems don’t like blue H2, go figure). The old Dominion success formula is out of style. Cramer seems to be a (practical-minded) Democrat and he still does not like Dominion.

  15. The “small modular nuclear reactor” is a farce. NuScale — the main developer of SMRs, cancelled all their projects several months ago, citing continued escalating costs. A study in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in May 2022 showed that SMRs produce just as much — and in some cases, more — nuclear waste than standard nuclear generating plants. The study also found that the spent nuclear fuel from small modular reactors will be discharged in greater volumes per unit energy extracted and can be far more complex than the spent fuel discharged from existing power plants.

    In spite of industry and political hype by companies that would profit from SMR worship, as of 2023 the only operational SMRs are one each in China and Russia.

    The reasons SMRs are being proposed for SW VA are:
    1. Folks in the coalfields are desperate for jobs, any job. Remember how Trump promised thousands of coal jobs?
    2. SW VA has traditionally been a dumping ground for society’s waste: several federal and state prisons, toxic waste dumps, old coal gob piles just waiting for the next heavy rain to repeat the Buffalo Creek disaster.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      The fact that the current existing nukes are increasingly financially vulnerable to being closed and additional significant subsidies from the govt to keep them open…

      sorta messes up the conservative narrative that nukes are the way to go and we need MORE.

      Reality is, the old ones are shutting down and the SMRs are looking belly-up and we’re going to have LESS Nuclear Power unless something changes. Nuclear power is not economically feasible right now and private sector development without govt support is going to go away and fast unless something happens.

      Gets right down to what folks think about the govt being involved with nuclear power, including subsidies.

      Not in favor at all for weakening regulations.

      If that is done, even less public support and outright opposition anytime one is proposed somewhere.

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