Understaffed Police Departments, Skyrocketing Gun Violence and “Stop and Frisk”

by James C. Sherlock

The print edition of The Virginian-Pilot today ran the story we commented on yesterday on the surge in gun violence killing children in Norfolk. The headline in the online version:

Nearly a dozen children were shot in July in Norfolk. Communities are hurting, and activists want change.

None of the nearly 2,200 words of the article mentioned stop and frisk. The referenced “activists” oppose stop and frisk as unavoidably linked to racial profiling. Courts disagree.

But I suspect that The Virginian-Pilot considers it off limits to even bring up.

It is one of the most fundamental policing techniques for reducing gun violence. In 2011, the NYPD arrested 82,286 persons as a result of stop and frisk encounters. Mike Bloomberg was mayor. The use of stop and frisk has plummeted since then under Mayor DeBlasio.

Those concerned with urban violence have a right to be concerned.  The past few years of political turmoil over policing has resulted in increasing shortages of officers and reductions in street policing. The direct results: more guns on the street, more killings of the innocent.

Communities like Norfolk need both their street cops and stop and frisk back.

From Cornell Law School

A stop-and-frisk refers to a brief non-intrusive police stop of a suspect. The Fourth Amendment requires that before stopping the suspect, the police must have a reasonable suspicion that a crime has been, is being, or is about to be committed by the suspect. If the police reasonably suspect that the suspect is armed and dangerous, the police may frisk the suspect, meaning that the police will give a quick pat-down of the suspect’s outer clothing. The frisk is also called a Terry Stop, derived from the Supreme Court case Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1 (1968)Terry held that a stop-and-frisk must comply with the Fourth Amendment, meaning that the stop-and-frisk cannot be unreasonable. According to the Terry court, a reasonable stop-and-frisk is one “in which a reasonably prudent officer is warranted in the circumstances of a given case in believing that his safety or that of others is endangered, he may make a reasonable search for weapons of the person believed by him to be armed and dangerous.”

So, stop and frisk is constitutional. Courts have found several police departments guilty of using it unconstitutionally, but the technique itself passes constitutional muster.

We need to put cops back on the streets and restore stop and frisk to its proper place in police procedure to help those that “activists” have abandoned to criminals.

And of course hold, prosecute and imprison the gun toting criminals they arrest.


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59 responses to “Understaffed Police Departments, Skyrocketing Gun Violence and “Stop and Frisk””

  1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    I am good with Stop and Frisk as a means of getting guns off the street. The minute racial profiling is involved, it must be terminated. That being said, if we are going to empower law enforcement with the ability to push the Constitutional envelope because gun proliferation is such a problem, can we not do something to stem the flow of guns purchased in areas with relaxed regulations and enforcement into these areas?

    1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      If a line is crossed in stop and frisk, the courts will stop it, as they have in the past.

      The way to deal with the interstate flow of guns is in the transportation step.

      Interstate cooperation is important in that step. Every state, city and many counties have joint federal/state/local counterterrorism task forces. Nothing stops them from helping in the matter of interstate flow of guns or shell buyers.

      1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        I really don’t think that Georgia is at all interested in helping to stem the flow of guns up the Iron Pipeline.

        1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          Kind of a gratuitous comment. Actually, Virginia is a prime source of guns for the Northeast.

          1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            I’m not surprised…

      2. It could start with Hunter Biden and his illegal gun purchase and disposal!… naw… it’ll never happen

      3. It could start with Hunter Biden and his illegal gun purchase and disposal!… naw… it’ll never happen

    2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      If a line is crossed in stop and frisk, the courts will stop it, as they have in the past.

      The way to deal with the interstate flow of guns is in the transportation step.

      Interstate cooperation is important in that step. Every state, city and many counties have joint federal/state/local counterterrorism task forces. Nothing stops them from helping in the matter of interstate flow of guns or shell buyers.

  2. Donald Smith Avatar
    Donald Smith

    “I suspect that the Virginian Pilot considers it off limits to even bring up.”

    I suspect you’re right. The Pilot’s staff probably knows its target audience well, and doesn’t want to irritate it.

    “hold, prosecute and imprison the gun toting criminals they arrest.”

    A friend of mine, a few years back, was telling me about how the City of Richmond cut gun crime: they got the feds to prosecute them. I asked why the city or state couldn’t prosecute gun criminals. My friend’s reply” “Thank you.” I.e., the feds had to prosecute gun criminals, because the city or state wouldn’t.

    At some point, you have to wonder if a community is OK if some of its citizens get shot. Which makes you wonder about that community.

    1. Project Exile. The legal mechanisms are still in place if the City of Richmond wished to reinvigorate the project.

  3. Donald Smith Avatar
    Donald Smith

    This reminds me of the mandatory drug testing the Army implemented while I was on active duty. It helped catch drug users—but it also helped impressionable soldiers resist peer pressure to “fit in” and start taking drugs. The tests were random, so no one knew who would be tested. Soldiers could then argue that they couldn’t risk jail or a dishonorable discharge by taking drugs. A soldier’s desire to “fit in” and “be cool” was outweighed by his desire to stay out of the brig.

    If we have situations where young people are pressured to join gangs, and pressured to carry firearms as part of their gang duties, a polite-but-comprehensive stop and frisk policy could help young people resist pressure to carry firearms.

    1. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      Maybe. In Fairfax County violent crime is rare. However, when there are violent crimes those crimes are almost always committed in certain parts of the county. Often along the Rt 1 corridor where I grew up. There are nearly no preventable violent crimes where I now live – McLean / Great Falls.

      Random drug testing in the Army was … well, random.

      Should the Fairfax County police stop and frisk me in order to maintain some sense of randomness? Should they stop and frisk as many people in low crime areas as in high crime areas?

      If I were a policeman I think I’d hate this idea. It seems destined to create more animosity toward the police.

    2. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead

      People really want boundaries and rules. Even the bad guys so they know not to draw attention to themselves. We had the same deal in schools once. Great analogy and truthfully what the public wants.

  4. Law abiding citizens know that the police force is called the Thin Blue Line for a very good reason. They are the mid line of defense between criminals/anarchists and the peaceful people, the first line being a proper upbringing/strong moral code, the last line being the right of self defense and a well armed populace.

    I am the son of a Fireman and therefore a nephew to the Blue, if you will, the defund the police movement along with the other anarchic developments over the past 2 years are from a coordinated effort to destabilize the US and institute a super authority over the world. Whether you label it Communism, Green Governance or Agenda 2030 it is coming for your liberty and one of the legs of the stool is a national/global police force to enforce the top down dictates. Look out as lawlessness and violence becomes more widespread for calls for a national authority to enforce peace.
    It may be somewhat down the road still but who would have thought 20 years ago that somethings as ludicrous as The Green New Deal, UBI and rationing electricity would be seriously discussed in America.

  5. Bergoff Birns Avatar
    Bergoff Birns

    Stop and frisk was found unconstitutional in New York by a court, and De Blasio is opposed to it. What are you going to propose next for Virginia, back to slave patrols? Get real. We need gun control.

    1. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead

      Interesting you bring up slave patrols. After Nat Turner’s Aug 21, 1831 slave rebellion, the following spring the General Assembly enacted strict Slave Code laws. One called for each locality to establish a slave patrol to patrol roads, search slave quarters, and disperse all slave gatherings. No slave revolts after 1832. I certainly don’t want to see that again. As for gun control, good luck with that. 357,000 registered gun owners in Virginia in 2017. Way more than that now given the past 2 years.

      1. Bergoff Birns Avatar
        Bergoff Birns

        I agree there are just too many guns out there. People are making big money off this racket.

        1. Making big money off what “racket”?

      2. Since gun registration is not required in Virginia, what do you mean by “registered gun owners”? Sure you referring to concealed handgun permit holders?

    2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      Stop and frisk is the enforcement of gun control. We need both stricter gun laws and strong enforcement.

      1. Bergoff Birns Avatar
        Bergoff Birns

        Um, no. There are other much better ways to enforce gun laws.

        1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          Such as…?? I am not saying there isn’t, I’m interested in those better ways. I think Stop & Frisk (for all its negatives) has proven pretty effective.

    3. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      The NYPD’s use of stop and frisk was found unconstitutional, not the policy itself. NYPD corrected the error and still employs it but far less often because they have taken cops off the streets.

      Use correct information.

      1. Bergoff Birns Avatar
        Bergoff Birns

        Don’t tell me. I saw it on the streets. It was day and night compared to today. Stop and frisk is a racist abuse, and was found to be so by a judge who followed the issue for literally years.

        1. what about all the lives NOT taken by those firearms taken off the street?

      2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        The city has not “taken” cops off the street. There have been a large number of retirements in recent months, which has resulted in fewer officers active in the field. That is a far cry from “taking them off the street.” In fact, the mayor has proposed increases to the police budget. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-06/new-york-city-s-police-budget-is-increasing-again

        1. Actually, six minority police chiefs left their positions because of the impact BLM had on city councils

        2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          Dick, Mayor DeBlasio reduced the NYPD operating budget by a billion dollars and cancelled an entire recruit class.
          https://www.wsj.com/articles/de-blasio-agrees-to-cut-nypd-funding-by-1-billion-11593472369

    4. I already have gun control, I do not need your version of it.

    5. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      Slave patrols? Anything else appropriate to offer?

    6. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      Slave patrols? Anything else appropriate to offer?

  6. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    On its face, “sttop and frisk” sounds reasonable. However, experience has shown that it can quickly lead to abuse. https://www2.nycbar.org/pdf/report/uploads/20072495-StopFriskReport.pdf

    Furthermore, there are a number of studies that indicate that the procedure is not that effective in preventing or deterring crime.

    https://crim.sas.upenn.edu/fact-check/does-stop-and-frisk-reduce-crime

    However, many studies, including the one cited above, do indicate that increasing police presence in high crime areas does help.

    Finally, D.J. Rippert is correct. Some of those same studies have shown that stop and frisk erodes trust between the community and police. It would be better to invest in a good community policing program.

    Besides, what is the point of stop and frisk in Virginia? Anyone can legally carry a gun on his hip in broad daylight or legally carry around a high powered automatic weapon for that matter.

    1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      Some reasons. The person stopped better have a concealed carry permit if the weapon is concealed. Convicted felons cannot carry them without going back to jail. Courts can make a condition of bail that those out on bail cannot carry. The guns themselves often have filed off serial numbers, also illegal. Guns with serial numbers can be traced to previous crimes. If the person has been convicted of a misdemeanor involving domestic violence, it is a federal crime for him to carry a firearm. Filing a report of the stop will list the person as armed regardless of his right to carry. Useful if a policeman stops his car.

    2. “a high powered automatic weapon for that matter” THAT’S FUNNY.

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        I do not find the possibility amusing. During the protest against tougher gun laws in Virginia, there were folks openly carrying semi-automatic weapons on the streets of Richmond last year. https://www.npr.org/2020/01/20/797895183/richmond-gun-rally-thousands-of-gun-owners-converge-on-virginia-capitol-on-mlk-d

        1. What’s funny is that automatic firearms are not used by criminals. To own one takes a BATF background check and an annual tax of $200. Also – no legally owned automatic firearm has EVER been used in the commission of crime since the law was passed in the 1930s. Finally, please define ‘high powered’? Such monikers indicates a lack of firearms knowledge.

          1. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            …but the movies show criminals using automatic firearms all the time???

          2. I stand corrected.. I should have referenced Fast and Furious and The Expendables like Wikipedia does.

          3. Brian Leeper Avatar
            Brian Leeper

            Remember, if it’s in the movies or on TV, it must be true! It’s illegal to lie on movies and TV!

          4. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            You are correct–I do not have a lot of knowledge about firearms. I have fired a M-16 and they can be put on automatic fire. An AK-47, while semi-automatic, can fire 40 rounds per minute, with bursts of 100 rounds a minute. In my book, it is automatic when I can fire up to 40 rounds per minute without having to pull the trigger 40 times.

          5. You are wrong. Semi-automatic means pulling the trigger fires a single round, then the round is extracted from the chamber and the next round is loaded.

          6. A real AK-47 is select fire (semi-auto or full auto).

            Civilian versions are semi-auto only. However, a shooter who fires 100 rounds from a semi-automatic rifle in one minute is going to have a very tired finger, because 100 rounds fired = 100 trigger pulls.

        2. You really do need to learn grammar and the definition of words…. there is a BIG difference between ‘automatic’ and ‘semi-automatic. That’s like calling a duck a goose.

          Also — those were ‘firearms’ , not weapons in Richmond…. again a big difference!

          Finally— all those firearms… and not a single killing… unlike Chicago EVERY WEEKEND

          1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            “Also — those were ‘firearms’ , not weapons in Richmond…. again a big difference!”

            Were those firearms not being carried as a form of personal protection (in part at least)? If so, weapon is an apt description. Not sure what to call them when they are used as a phallic symbol as in Richmond.

    3. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      Some reasons. The person stopped better have a concealed carry permit if the weapon is concealed. Convicted felons cannot carry them without going back to jail. Courts can make a condition of bail that those out on bail cannot carry. The guns themselves often have filed off serial numbers, also illegal. Guns with serial numbers can be traced to previous crimes. If the person has been convicted of a misdemeanor involving domestic violence, it is a federal crime for him to carry a firearm. Filing a report of the stop will list the person as armed regardless of his right to carry. Useful if a policeman stops his car.

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        If a cop sees a person openly carrying a firearm, how is he to know if that person is a convicted felon? Or if that person is on probation supervision and not allowed to have firearm? How is he to know if the gun has had its serial number filed off? The more I think about it, having stop and frisk in Virginia might be an incentive for more people to openly carry their weapons. Maybe that would be a good thing. Somehow, I cannot think it would be.

        1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
          James C. Sherlock

          You are really reaching. Most of the shooters we are talking about are young. Some very young gang members – or kids afraid of gang members.

          A 13 year old strapped with a visible firearm? Open carry of a handgun without a permit is illegal in Virginia until age 18.

          A 24 year old gang banger carrying one? Nothing to see here for the police?

          Come on, Dick, that can’t be it. What is your real issue?

          1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            I cannot find the statute that says that open carry by someone under 18 is illegal. The only one that I can find dealing with an age limit makes it a misdemeanor to knowingly allow a child under 12 to use a firearm.

            I think it is a legitimate concern that an aggressive stop and frisk policy could lead to young men swaggering down the street openly carrying firearms.

          2. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            See 18 USC § 922(x)(2) below.

            The full set of federal laws that apply:
            SELL, DELIVER OR TRANSFER FIREARM OR AMMUNITION TO A JUVENILE:
            A. 18 USC § 922(x)(1). Punishable by up to 1 year imprisonment unless transferor had reason to believe juvenile would commit crime of violence with gun or ammunition, then up to 10 years imprisonment. May not sell, deliver or transfer a handgun or handgun-only ammunition to a person who is under age 18;

            B. 18 USC § 922(x)(2). A person under age 18 may not possess a handgun or handgun-only ammunition; (NOTE: Certain exceptions apply to A & B, such as where juvenile possesses written permission of a parent.);

            C. 18 USC § 922(b). Punishable by up to 5 years imprisonment. A firearms licensee may not sell any gun or ammunition to anyone under the age of 18 and may not sell a handgun or handgun ammunition to a person under the age of 21.

          3. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            Thanks. I was unaware of the federal law. Of course, the regular patrol cops in Richmond, Norfolk, etc. are not in the habit of enforcing federal law. I am not sure if they have the authority to do so.

          4. Code of Virginia § 18.2-308.7. Possession or transportation of certain firearms by persons under the age of 18; penalty.
            It shall be unlawful for any person under 18 years of age to knowingly and intentionally possess or transport a handgun or assault firearm anywhere in the Commonwealth.

            A violation of this section shall be a Class 1 misdemeanor.

            There are certain exceptions: on family owned property, when accompanied by an adult on way to/from shooting range (unloaded), to and from hunting (unloaded), etc., but none of these exceptions permit a person under 18 to open carry (or concealed carry) a loaded handgun.

    4. Brian Leeper Avatar
      Brian Leeper

      https://vcdl.org/page/virginia-carry-information

      Open carry is prohibited:

      Cities of:
      Alexandria
      Chesapeake
      Fairfax
      Falls Church
      Newport News
      Norfolk
      Richmond
      Virginia Beach
      Counties of:
      Arlington
      Fairfax
      Henrico
      Loudoun
      Prince William

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        Those are not general prohibitions. The details provide the specific locations in which open carry is prohibited. For most, if not all, here is the restriction: “all carry (open and concealed with CHP) prohibited in local government
        buildings, parks, community and recreation centers, and permitted events
        and adjacent streets.”

          1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Again, not general prohibition.

    5. “…legally carry around a high powered automatic weapon for that matter.”

      There are very few people who can legally carry around an automatic weapon. Just owning one requires a very expensive license (they call it a tax) and registration with the federal government, which is only approved after a lot of paperwork and a much more extensive background check than is required to purchase a standard firearm. Owners are also subject to rules regarding transporting the weapon across state lines. A separate permit (tax) is required for each and every automatic weapon one wishes to purchase.

      PS – In Virginia, automatic weapons must also be registered with the State Police.

  7. Virginia Project Avatar
    Virginia Project

    Law enforcement needs to focus on bad people, how they got that way, and why they are not staying off the streets even after they get arrested for other crimes.

    Focusing on guns means you’re on the wrong path with the very first step.

    1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      It is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time.

  8. […] was extensive commentary on my post yesterday that recommended expanded use of stop and frisk in an attempt to reduce gun […]

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