Setting the Stage for the Great Race-in-Admissions Debate

Should admissions be color blind?

by James A. Bacon

People have been asking me what I think about the U.S. Supreme Court ruling prohibiting colleges and universities from using race as a specific basis for admitting students. I’m not a legal scholar, so I won’t offer any opinions on the legal or constitutional merits of the decision. I speak as a citizen.

My sense is that the Court has made a huge step forward in the generations-long campaign to build a color-blind society. If you share the ideal that a man should be judged by the content of his character, not the color of his skin, you will applaud the ruling regardless of its legalities. And if you believe that the condition of Blacks and Hispanics can be elevated in American society only through preferential treatment of their race and ethnicity, you will see it as a blow in furtherance of White supremacy.

The immediate impact will be to generate waves of punditry on how colleges and universities should implement the ruling — or evade it. Prevailing commentary seems to hold that most university administrators will “take a hard look” at their admissions policies, then tweak them to accomplish what they want — higher percentages of Blacks and Hispanics — without triggering lawsuits.

That certainly seems to be the case at the University of Virginia, where President Jim Ryan and Provost Ian Baucom have said in a statement to the university community that they will follow the law but also “continue to do everything within our legal authority to recruit and admit a class of students who are diverse across every possible dimension and to make every student feel welcome and included here at UVA.”

“Our commitment to diversity, in short, is not diminished,” they said, “even if our ability to pursue that goal is constrained.”

The Jefferson Council has taken no position on what the University should do.  My sense as executive director is that it would be premature to do so. The fact is, we don’t know enough about UVa admissions policies to have an informed opinion. But the fact that we don’t have one bothers us. Our ignorance is not for a lack of inquiry. The University treats its admissions criteria and processes like a trade secret. Until the University opens up, it will be impossible to have a candid and honest conversation.

However, the impact of UVa’s admissions policies can be measured. UVa publishes a significant amount of data, and so does the State Council of Higher Education for Virginia. In the days and weeks ahead, we will publish data on enrollment, degrees earned, dropout rates, indebtedness, and other metrics that will help frame the debate.

Hopefully, we can figure out what we know and what we don’t know. And we can press for more transparency on what we don’t know.

In the meantime, we at the Jefferson Council need to have our own internal conversations. How do we, as an association of UVa alumni, define “diversity”? How do we define “inclusion”? My sense is that our members universally oppose the concept of “equity,” if equity means guaranteeing equal group outcomes. But President Ryan insists that “equal outcomes” is not what he means by equity. He says he means something more like “equal opportunity”… with adjustments made for disadvantaged minorities to give them an equal shot at succeeding.

Many Jefferson Council members — and Bacon’s Rebellion readers — say they believe in “meritocracy,” but what does that mean? Do we judge merit by SAT scores, ACT scores, and high school grade point averages? What weight do we place on student activities? What credit do we give to applicants who have demonstrated an ability to overcome adversity? How do we reconcile “merit” with “legacy” status? What does a “holistic” admissions process look like when there are 51,000 applications?

It’s hard for the Council to advocate UVa admissions policies when we haven’t formulated a coherent position of our own. I welcome feedback from Jefferson Council members and Bacon’s Rebellion readers. Please leave comments on this blog post — or submit columns to me at jabacon@baconsrebellion.com.

James A. Bacon is executive director of the Jefferson Council. This column was adapted from a post on the Jefferson Council blog.


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115 responses to “Setting the Stage for the Great Race-in-Admissions Debate”

  1. Ronnie Chappell Avatar
    Ronnie Chappell

    In Texas, where I lived for eight years, the state guarantees admission to the state’s public universities to students who graduate high school in the top 10 percent of their class. Six percent of freshmen at the highly-regarded University of Texas are admitted under this program.

    The program ensures racial and geographic diversity at state schools. It rewards effort and classroom achievement in rural and inner city schools. Despite the fact that kids at highly-competitive suburban high schools who fail to crack the top 10 percent are sometimes denied admission to the university of their dreams, the program has been in place for 24 years. Georgia does pretty much the same thing.

    The fact is that the academic credentials of entering freshmen vary a lot. Applicants are not judged by the same standards. It’s why all those rich and powerful parents paid bribes to coaches and school administrators to have their kids admitted as athletes. At Virginia’s top schools there is a difference between the average SAT scores of in-state and out-of-state students; women and men; athletes and everyone else.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/with-race-based-admissions-no-longer-an-option-states-may-imitate-texas-top-10-plan/ar-AA1ddg6a

    1. Teddy007 Avatar
      Teddy007

      Two things to remember about the top 10% rule. First, it takes away any advantage of sending one’s children to a private school since the private schools in Texas have to rank their students just like the publics.
      Second, UT-Austin has fire walls that mean that certain degrees like Engineer, Business, or even Nursing have additional requirements. So, for a high school students in Texas, the question becomes whether that student would be better off at UT-Austin majoring in sociology or communication or at Texas Tech or Houston majoring in business or engineering.

      1. Ronnie Chappell Avatar
        Ronnie Chappell

        To me, the thing about the top 10 percent rule is that putting it in place was politically possible and that it has endured for so many years. It’s an approach that a tax-averse conservative from a rural district with small, poorly funded schools can support because of the benefit delivered to his or her constituents. It’s also hard to oppose admission of students who show up every day, work hard, do the best they can and outperform their peers. It rewards merit. Intelligence is not a character trait.

    2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      The system that Texas uses would indeed lead to diversity and be equitable. The chief difference with Virginia, of course, is that we don’t have a central system. Every state school has its own admissions policy.

      1. Lefty665 Avatar
        Lefty665

        Long ago when my wife was deciding on schools, Ohio guaranteed college admission to any state resident with a high school diploma. Her feeling was that if all else failed she could go to (the) Ohio State.

        My recollection is that around that time UVa was not all that hard to get into either, it still had a rep as a party school. William and Mary was a little more selective.

      2. Ronnie Chappell Avatar
        Ronnie Chappell

        I’m not sure a centralized admissions process is necessary for this to work. And I believe state universities in Texas have their own admissions offices. Also, in a world where SATs have become optional, denying admission to top ten percenters would be difficult for so-called “selective” state schools to justify.

  2. Teddy007 Avatar
    Teddy007

    The issue with admitting blacks who will be overmatched compared to the mean student is that those black and Hispanic students would probably be better served at another university such as Virginia Tech, VCU, James Madison etc.

    The question that is not being mentioned is how much better is the first alternate at UVA compared to the least qualified black student (non-athlete) who was admitted.

    1. VaNavVet Avatar
      VaNavVet

      Your so called “overmatched” students may well contribute more to the university by their presence than their white majority counterparts. Who is to say what constitutes being better served? Can you say tyranny of low expectations?

      1. Teddy007 Avatar
        Teddy007

        Overmatched students handle the situation my changing their major to something easier, taking longer to graduate, or in rare cases, dropping out. Would an overmatched student be better off majoring in kinesiology at UVA or business at VT? One should always focus on the student and not the needs of the university.

        1. VaNavVet Avatar
          VaNavVet

          Who can say which would better fit their needs and desires? To me both sound quite promising.

          1. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            Perhaps you, as an individual, would not be “overmatched” by either of those programs. Either major already is changing to something less demanding, and the B school at Tech might consider equating the majors an insult.

        2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          “One should always focus on the student and not the needs of the university.”

          Admission decisions always take the needs of the university into account as well as those of the student. They are quite explicit about that in their public statements.

          1. Teddy007 Avatar
            Teddy007

            But they should not. Not putting the student first can lead to drop outs, mental illness, suicides, etc.

  3. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    “The University treats its admissions criteria and processes like a trade secret.”
    I expect a future lawsuit to bring out the secret ingredients. Even KFC can’t keep a secret. 99X is the same as the original Colonel Sanders recipe.
    https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/81cbce6c927cd1d633e4a2b3794024f5c1f5de482dfa083515a34d263793f05f.jpg

    1. Teddy007 Avatar
      Teddy007

      Universities can hide behind laws that provide privacy to students.

  4. Stephen Haner Avatar
    Stephen Haner

    Put me in the camp that believes nothing will change and in five years the admissions results will be the same. Where there is a will…Sadly the news coverage failed to include discussion of how the real issue is the failure of the K-12 system to end disparities in basic skills long before college.

    Since Texas is tracking that top 10%, what does that cohort look like? Is it the demographic diversity all claim they support?

    1. VaNavVet Avatar
      VaNavVet

      Five years is a long time for many people and will impact the lives of a great many young folks who will be motivated to vote. Something will definitely change if it will take that amount of time to return to normal.

      1. Stephen Haner Avatar
        Stephen Haner

        I wasn’t clear, I guess. Nothing will change at all and if you look back from five years out it will be obvious nothing changed. But I wouldn’t call where we are “normal.”

        1. VaNavVet Avatar
          VaNavVet

          A great many people hope that you are correct about nothing changing. Perhaps normal is not the best descriptor of a SCOTUS upending decades of precedence on a seemingly regular basis.

          1. Stephen Haner Avatar
            Stephen Haner

            Bakke was 45 years ago and this reads very much like Bakke to me. Before that “precedent” was racial exclusions. So be careful about “precedent.”

    2. walter smith Avatar
      walter smith

      Nothing will change without active BOV investigation and insistence on going truly color blind. UVA has already gamed the system.

  5. M. Purdy Avatar
    M. Purdy

    Sounds like Jeff Council should support the position of Ryan and Baucom, though I know that’s not likely. Ryan and Baucom both emphatically committed to abiding by the law. And the law, as it now stands, says that you can’t use race as an explicit factor in admissions decisions, but you can take into account race in an individualized, holistic manner. They further confirmed that diversity means diversity in all of its forms, not just racial diversity.

    1. walter smith Avatar
      walter smith

      Words. Not true words. Like “unequivocal” free speech.

  6. Nathan Avatar

    Mr. Bacon:

    In my view, suggestions for a proper response to the Supreme Court ruling with respect to affirmative action should first and foremost address the discrimination against Asian students at elite colleges and universities. That is, after all what the suits were primarily about.

    “Asian Americans, the group whom the suit was supposedly about, have been oddly absent from the conversations that have followed the ruling. The repetitiveness of the affirmative-action debate has come about, in large part, because both the courts and the media have mostly ignored the Asian American plaintiffs and chosen, instead, to relitigate the same arguments about merit, white supremacy, and privilege. During the five years I spent covering this case, the commentators defending affirmative action almost never disproved the central claim that discrimination was taking place against Asian Americans, even as they dismissed the plaintiffs as pawns who had been duped by a conservative legal activist. They almost always redirected the conversation to something else—often legacy admissions.”

    Why the Champions of Affirmative Action Had to Leave Asian Americans Behind

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/why-the-champions-of-affirmative-action-had-to-leave-asian-americans-behind

    Students for Fair Admissions Applauds
    Supreme Court’s Decision to End Racial
    Preferences in College Admissions

    http://studentsfor.wpenginepowered.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/SFFA-Scotus-Opinion-Issued-Press-Release-June-2023.pdf

    1. M. Purdy Avatar
      M. Purdy

      The New Yorker piece is powerful.

      1. Nathan Avatar

        I wish more people would read the article and consider it’s implications. I was not aware of this, for example.

        “Affirmative action, in my view, was doomed from that moment forward because it had been stripped of its moral force. It is one thing to argue that slavery, lynchings, Jim Crow laws, mass incarceration, and centuries of theft demand an educational system that factors in the effects of those atrocities. If that principle were to express itself in, say, a Black student who was descended from slaves and had grown up in poverty in an American inner city receiving a bump on his application when compared with a rich private-school kid from the suburbs, so be it. But that is not, in fact, how affirmative action usually plays out at élite schools. Most reporting on the subject—including my own, as well as a story in the Harvard Crimson—shows that descendants of slaves are relatively underrepresented among Black students at Harvard, compared with students from upwardly mobile Black immigrant families. It is easy and perhaps virtuous to defend the reparative version of affirmative action; it is harder to defend the system as it has actually been used.”

        1. M. Purdy Avatar
          M. Purdy

          One of the few positive upshots of this ruling is that it will force elite colleges to put their $$ where their mouth is. They will have to delve into what diversity means beyond the use of race as a proxy; they may have to do things like expanding class sizes, actually going out to underserved communities to find, develop and recruit talent; looking at more transfer students, esp. from community colleges; and ending once and for all legacy admissions. I would note for the UVa critics out there that the school has done a lot to develop the underserved pipeline, including devoting resources to advancing first-generation college students, coaching and developing underrepresented minority groups for grad school, and encouraging community college transfers.

          1. Nathan Avatar

            “…they may have to do things like expanding class sizes, actually going out to underserved communities to find, develop and recruit talent; looking at more transfer students,…”

            But will that happen?

            The Democrats seem to prefer nullifying the legitimacy of the Supreme Court by increasing the number of justices and adding liberals until they get whatever they want.

            It’s called packing the court. FDR tried that and failed.

          2. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            “FDR tried that and failed.” Actually, FDR threatened to pack the court and started getting decisions that upheld the New Deal. It would argue that it was a big win for him. But I digress, I don’t know if elite colleges will do all those things. But I think it’s time they do, and the former president of Harvard has written a terrific oped laying out a plan of action: https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/07/01/lawrence-summers-affirmative-action-elite-colleges/

          3. Nathan Avatar

            He didn’t just threaten to do it, he tried and failed. That’s the historic record.

            Within five weeks of the President’s announcement, the “court-packing plan,” as it came to be known, was heading toward a dead-end in the Senate. By June 1937, the Judiciary Committee had sent a report with a negative recommendation to the full Senate. “The bill is an invasion of judicial power such as has never before been attempted in this country. . . . It is essential to the continuance of our constitutional democracy that the judiciary be completely independent of both the executive and legislative branches of the government,” the report read.

            Its conclusion was even more direct: “It is a measure which should be so emphatically rejected that its parallel will never again be presented to the free representatives of the free people of America.”

            https://constitutioncenter.org/blog/how-fdr-lost-his-brief-war-on-the-supreme-court-2

            But you are correct that his threats and intimidation were successful in getting jurists to vote his way.

            18 U.S. Code § 1503 – Influencing or injuring officer or juror generally

            “Whoever corruptly, or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication, endeavors to influence, intimidate, or impede any grand or petit juror, or officer in or of any court of the United States, or officer who may be serving …”

            https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1503

          4. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            Correct, but the actual court-packing judicial bill was introduced *after* the court had ended its opposition to new deal programs. The switch in time, and all that. He got what he wanted with the threat, then went too far. Biden has announced that he has no intention of increasing the size of the court, which I agree with. I’d rather he and Dems use these decisions to win elections. The Court’s favorability is at an all time low, and there’s a reason for that: the conservative majority has made too many anti-majoritarian decisions, and they take too much $$ from billionaires to be anything but a political boon to Dems.

          5. Nathan Avatar

            Democrats can’t win the debate on the merits of Supreme decisions, so that attack the institution.

            Many of your comments reflect a total lack of awareness that often there are two sides to an issue or controversy.

            The truth is, similar to FDR’s time. It sometimes pays for Democrats to intimidate the Supreme Court.

            Politico’s Heidi Przybyla, who smeared Brett Kavanaugh in 2018, recently painted Justice Neil Gorsuch’s real estate — initiated two years before confirmation to the Supreme Court — as a picture of corruption. That piece of shoddy “investigation” was debunked just as easily as ProPublica’s attempt to accuse Justice Clarence Thomas of cozying up with a conflict of interest was quashed.

            To justify their ongoing smear campaign, Democrats brought in congressional witnesses such as Kedric Payne, who is not only quoted in Politico’s Gorsuch smear but also works for a legal group that asserts on its front page the Supreme Court is “a threat to our democracy.”

            “The truth is the left simply disagrees with [Thomas’s] decisions and with the decisions of our current Supreme Court,” Republican Sen. Mike Lee said at the hearing. “And they obviously can’t persuade the American people to adopt their radical policies through legislation, so they’re attempting to destroy the court’s credibility and intimidate the Republican-appointed justices and their families. Starting with Justice Thomas, they’re making clear that justices who disagree with them will pay a price.”

            https://thefederalist.com/2023/05/02/democrats-latest-sham-hearing-isnt-about-ethics-its-about-destroying-their-political-enemies-on-the-supreme-court/

          6. Nathan Avatar

            Democrats can’t win the debate on the merits of Supreme decisions, so that attack the institution.

            Many of your comments reflect a total lack of awareness that often there are two sides to an issue or controversy.

            The truth is, similar to FDR’s time. It sometimes pays for Democrats to intimidate the Supreme Court.

            Politico’s Heidi Przybyla, who smeared Brett Kavanaugh in 2018, recently painted Justice Neil Gorsuch’s real estate — initiated two years before confirmation to the Supreme Court — as a picture of corruption. That piece of shoddy “investigation” was debunked just as easily as ProPublica’s attempt to accuse Justice Clarence Thomas of cozying up with a conflict of interest was quashed.

            To justify their ongoing smear campaign, Democrats brought in congressional witnesses such as Kedric Payne, who is not only quoted in Politico’s Gorsuch smear but also works for a legal group that asserts on its front page the Supreme Court is “a threat to our democracy.”

            “The truth is the left simply disagrees with [Thomas’s] decisions and with the decisions of our current Supreme Court,” Republican Sen. Mike Lee said at the hearing. “And they obviously can’t persuade the American people to adopt their radical policies through legislation, so they’re attempting to destroy the court’s credibility and intimidate the Republican-appointed justices and their families. Starting with Justice Thomas, they’re making clear that justices who disagree with them will pay a price.”

            https://thefederalist.com/2023/05/02/democrats-latest-sham-hearing-isnt-about-ethics-its-about-destroying-their-political-enemies-on-the-supreme-court/

          7. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            I assure you that you have an underdeveloped idea of what “checks and balances” means. The SCOTUS doesn’t operate in a vacuum, and the “merits” of these arguments will change once the makeup of the court changes.

  7. VaNavVet Avatar
    VaNavVet

    JAB has been a big proponent of social-economic status in lieu of race. The spokesman for the student group that brought the suit stated that he could support this. This may well be one area in which admissions moves to abide by the law and to continue to pursue diversity. In any event, SCOTUS has created a lawyers dream.

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Well, that it does all the time!

    2. Randy Huffman Avatar
      Randy Huffman

      If this leads to more litigation, it won’t be that SCOTUS created a lawyers dream, rather college admissions policies trying to circumvent the ruling will be at fault.

      1. VaNavVet Avatar
        VaNavVet

        The SCOTUS ruling was “fuzzy” and left lots of room for interpretation.

  8. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    “It’s hard for the Council to advocate UVa admissions policies…”

    Doesn’t this seem a little presumptive…?

  9. Lefty665 Avatar
    Lefty665

    There certainly is value in diversity.

    UVa is undoubtedly a better place now that it is no longer the remote preserve where rich white boys were sent to sow their wild oats until they grew up enough to function in civilization.

    Balancing diversity with ability is a harder question. What is the net benefit to the university community when being diverse means that less able students are admitted over more able?

    That was brought home to me Thursday evening by an NPR segment where a business academic repeatedly asserted that all the research showed that more diverse groups made better decisions than less diverse groups. After he asserted that for the third or fourth time, it drove me to think. Wait I said to myself, why would a more diverse group always make better decisions than a bright group? Or why would a diverse group always make better decisions than an experienced group? The proposition that diversity automatically trumps brains, experience and ability is highly suspect.

    America has a very diverse educational system. We might consider that both individuals and the country would be better off by matching students to the educational institutions they attend. The hierarchy goes something like, trade schools, community colleges, colleges, universities, elite universities. Sending students to educational institutions they are not prepared for in the name of diversity may be a virtue signal for the school, but it is not a favor to the student. Inclusion could very well be defined as sending a student to an educational institution that matches their preparation and ability.

    Equity, despite Ryan’s circuitous attempt to redefine it as equality of opportunity, is a stinker. You can dress that pig up and put lipstick on it, but in the end it remains flatly racist by mandating equal outcomes by race rather than ability. That serves nobody well, and as the Court noted it is unconstitutional.

    Achieving diversity across our educational system as a whole and inclusion through getting kids to schools that match their abilities arguably provides the best opportunities for individuals, schools and the country.

    1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      “The proposition that diversity automatically trumps brains, experience and ability is highly suspect.”

      Don’t think that is the proposition. I think it is more like with all else being equal, more diversity always trumps less.

      1. Lefty665 Avatar
        Lefty665

        What makes you think that all else is equal, ever?

        The Supreme Court clearly said that basing admissions on skin color (not so many yellow people need apply) rather than ability clearly was not equal as required by the Constitution.

      2. Lefty665 Avatar
        Lefty665

        What makes you think that all else is equal, ever?

        The Supreme Court clearly said that basing admissions on skin color (not so many yellow people need apply) rather than ability clearly was not equal as required by the Constitution.

        1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          You were discussing a finding of research and those experiments are set up to equalize other factors. Their findings were that diversity always improves outcomes. It is not that hard of a concept and hardly surprising. Your issue is you are conflating real world scenarios with constructed experimental settings. They are not the same. I am fairly certain the researchers did not try to infer that a group can overcome other unequal factors simply through diversity which is the straw man you have constructed here.

    2. Teddy007 Avatar
      Teddy007

      If diverse universities are good, then why does the federal government give so much money and funnel so much resources to historically black universities who make no effort at having diversity on campus. If the undergraduates at the UMich (Gratz V Bollinger) or law students (Grutter V Bollinger) need black students in the same class room to be fully educated, then why don’t the students the HBU’s like Howard (80% black) or Morehouse (over 89% black) not need white or Hispanic or Asian students in their classrooms.

      Stop being a hypocrite and try harder.

      1. Lefty665 Avatar
        Lefty665

        “Stop being a hypocrite and try harder.”

        I am arguing that both students and the country are better off if students are matched to the schools they attend, that we achieve diversity across our entire school system, and that diversity in a specific setting does not automagically trump brains, experience or ability. Accusing me of being a hypocrite for that is most charitably nonsensical.

        The H in HBCUs is historic. There was clearly segregation (think Plessy v Ferguson). HBCUs provided opportunities for black people that were otherwise unavailable during that time. Justice O’Conner noted in 2003 we are approaching a time when affirmative action is no longer needed. Perhaps it is time that HBCUs diversify too, or at least for Howard to fire Nikole Hannah-Jones.

        1. Teddy007 Avatar
          Teddy007

          Howard is not about to fire a Pulitzer Prize winner. It was UNC-Chapel Hill (or the trustees and meddlers) who screwed up by not giving her the same deal that others had received there. And if one goes back and reads Hanna-Jones’s writing on K-12 education, there is much for conservatives to agree with. Every conservative should be accusing white progressives of only supporting diversity when it is curated diversity that leaves white progressives in the majority.

          Norfolk St is 84% black. There is no reason for a Republican Administration in Virginia to continue supporting a public university that is that segregated. If one looks at the U.S. News listing, the least diverse universities in the U.S. are the HBCUs.

  10. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    George Will in his talk at UVa commented on this issue: Higher ed will do what higher ed does. (That’s a paraphrase.) In this sense, he was on the same page as Steve Haner.

    It is commendable that the Jefferson Council feels it needs to develop a policy and even more commendable that you raise the questions that you do about what “meritocracy” means. What about one of the core questions: Does the Council believe in diversity? Should a university strive to achieve diversity in its student body? After all, UVa could likely fill up its in-state portion of a freshman class with students from Northern Virginia and the Richmond suburbs and its out-of-state ranks with students from the New Jersey, Maryland, and Philadelphia suburbs and be able to say its admissions policy was based on merit. Is that what you, the Jefferson Council, wants?

    On the larger question, it is beyond ironic that, after decades of keeping Blacks in segregated schools; making it extremely difficult for them to get good jobs, buy houses in “good” neighborhoods, get credit to start businesses, and, generally, build wealth to be passed on to future generations; and, currently, providing them second or third class education (Steve Haner’s point), conservatives now say, “Oh, we can’t use race as a factor.” Until Black kids in elementary schools are provided the same basic structure in reading and math that more affluent kids get, then it is hypocritical to say that admissions should be “race-neutral.” As Justice Jackson put in her dissent, “[D]eeming race irrelevant in law does not make it so in life.”

    1. M. Purdy Avatar
      M. Purdy

      Excellent post. To answer the question “Does the Council believe in diversity?” I think they implicitly have to, because they’re pushing for more conservatives in the faculty and the student body. Presumably, there’s institutional value in those minority voices in the majority left-of-center culture.

    2. M. Purdy Avatar
      M. Purdy

      Excellent post. To answer the question “Does the Council believe in diversity?” I think they implicitly have to, because they’re pushing for more conservatives in the faculty and the student body. Presumably, there’s institutional value in those minority voices in the majority left-of-center culture.

    3. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      Justice Thomas noted in his concurrence:

      “The Court today makes clear that, in the future, universities wishing to discriminate based on race in admissions must articulate and justify a compelling and measurable state interest based on concrete evidence, given the strictures set out by the Court, I highly doubt any will be able to do so.” https://thehill.com/regulation/court-battles/4073736-thomas-in-rare-occurrence-reads-affirmative-action-opinion-from-bench/

      Until Black kids in elementary schools are provided the same basic structure in reading and math that more affluent kids get, then it is hypocritical to say that admissions should be “race-neutral.”

      The issue is not the provision of basic structure, all get that. The issue is the ability of black, and other primarily poor kids who often come from chaotic homes and who are ill prepared to thrive to benefit from it. That is what we must fix as localities, states and a nation. Until we get there admitting unprepared kids to college is a recipe for their further failure.

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        Your explanation is what I meant by “structure”. Enabling them to read at level that is consistent with their grade level and get a basic understanding of mathematical principles and their application (the “times” tables).

        Not every kid who does not measure up to the minimum SAT score is a failure in college.

        1. Lefty665 Avatar
          Lefty665

          So an imperfect correlation between testing and potential is cause to throw out admissions based on objective achievement measures? Seems a funny conclusion.

          1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            So, it’s OK to tell kids who have worked hard all through their school year, but who fall short perhaps because their school did not to do enough to prepare them, “Tough, kid. We are race neutral now. Until the local schools get their act together and start better preparing students like you, we can’t accept them.”

          2. Matt Adams Avatar
            Matt Adams

            That’s exactly what has been told to ever other student who didn’t have the bump that AA provided. Welcome to an even playing field where your merit is how you progress forward.

          3. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            So what do you propose as a remedy, passing kids without achievement on to fail in college? From there, as we have seen, college standards have been lowered and underachieving students get passed on into work.

            Do you want the doctor or air line pilot determining your life or death to have reached that position by failing objective standards of competency? I do not. YMMV.

            We have a huge problem. Even when we fix it (I’m an optimist) by starting in kindergarten to prepare all kids to read, write and achieve academically, it is another dozen years before those kids get to college. There is no magic short term solution.

            That leaves a big cohort that is academically unprepared. They are screwed, just like their unprepared predecessors.

            Compassion and remedial programs to help people become competent and to achieve are crucial for those our schools have failed. But passing unprepared people along into decision making positions is a guarantee of disaster both personally and as a country.

            If you have not watched it, Idicocracy is a movie about how bad that can get. At 8 bucks it is a cheap cautionary tale. https://www.amazon.com/Idiocracy/dp/B000K7VHOG/ref=sr_1_2?crid=6ZKBLRGU9FMF&keywords=idiocracy+movie&qid=1688312333&sprefix=idioc%2Caps%2C766&sr=8-2

          4. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            I have never advocated ”
            passing unprepared people along into decision making position.” I want poor Black kids who have worked hard and who have ability, it just has not shown up on SAT tests, to be able to get into a position in which they can show whether they have the skills and knowledge to be a doctor, airline pilot, astronaut, or whatever. It is called equal opportunity, which, as I remember, conservatives on this blog support.

          5. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            What evidence do you have that group exists? Kids who have worked hard and have ability tend to achieve.

            Where we have failed is with kids, mostly poor, often from chaotic homes, who come to school unprepared to learn to read and write, and without the daily living competencies to succeed in the classroom. Each year they fall further and further behind.

            Seems you’re positing a unicorn or at best a very rare critter. That concerns me because it distracts from addressing the huge problem we have with large numbers of kids who fail to thrive academically. They have little hope for productive lives and are a time bomb for the country. We desperately need to fix that.

            Equality of opportunity is crucial, equity of outcomes based on race, or anything other than demonstrated ability, is deadly.

          6. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            It is called community college, from which a student can go anywhere, including to UVa.

          7. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            Stop it.

            Actually, Dick, the applicants are being told that they are not yet prepared to do the work required in the four-year college to which they have applied.

            Their worlds are not ended. That is precisely why we have community colleges.

            They can go there and get ready, as millions of every race and heritage have before them.

          8. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            In my experience, admissions to colleges have never been objective. Btw, what say you about the way the top military academies take into account political connections in their admissions decisions. A letter of recommendation from a federal elected or appointed official (think Senator or Congressman) is basically a pre-requisite.

          9. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            Furthermore, Justice Roberts in his majority opinion explicitly exempted the military academies from the ruling. Therefore, they are free to continue to use race as a factor. If it is appropriate for the the military, why not for the rest of higher education? https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/supreme-court-decisions/h_2ed77aac7938282bb372ccc73430a3e5?cid=external-feeds_iluminar_msn

          10. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            I did not know this… that is pretty jaw dropping…

            Edit: Called out pretty strongly in the dissent.

            JACKSON, J., dissenting

            “The Court has come to rest on the bottom-line conclusion that racial diversity in higher education is only worth potentially preserving insofar as it might be needed to prepare Black Americans and other underrepresented minorities for success in the bunker, not the boardroom (a particularly awkward place to land, in light of the history the majority opts to ignore).”

          11. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            Judge Jackson, by that comment drawn from the Chief Justice’s footnote, showed she needed more and broader experience before an appointment to the court.

          12. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            His exemption is welcome, but it’s logically unsound. It surely also makes the retrogrades at places like VMI (who occupy a disproportionate amount of space on this blog) quite upset;-).

          13. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            Chief Justice John Roberts footnote about military academies did not exempt them from the constitution.

            He wrote that the cases before the court did “not address the issue” of military academies and left open the possibility that there are “potentially distinct interests that military academies may present” in a future case.

            That narrows the decision, but does not say what a future case in which the military academies are the defendants may find.

          14. M. Purdy Avatar
            M. Purdy

            But why make the distinction at all? Why does the military and its academies warrant a separate set of considerations where affirmative action may be justified, as opposed to say an elite college, the professions of the law or medicine, or business schools? Those other categories get no separate considerations because the use of race is “impermissible” under the 14th Amendment.

          15. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            “In my experience” apparently does not extend to military academy admissions.

            You do a huge disservice and owe an apology to those who apply and qualify for admission to a military academy to write here that an appointment represents a political connection.

            Some history. The U.S. Military Academy at West Point was established by Thomas Jefferson specifically to ensure that America’s military leaders did not come exclusively from wealthy families.

            Appointments have been from the early 19th century a diversity measure to ensure that qualified candidates are brought to the academies from all of the states, and in representative numbers from those states.

            The number of Representatives in the House are of course proportional to state populations.

            Today, applicants have to meet the academies’ extremely high admissions standards before acceptance and an appointment are even considered.

            The names of recruits that the academies want are available to those with appointing power.

            Then they contact their senators and representatives for an appointment.

            Do you at that point, when applicants have jumped through all of those achievement hoops in their lives dismiss as a “political connection” an appointment to the Naval Academy from, say, a progressive Democrat?

          16. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            Thank you for the insightful explanation of the service academy admission process. It is much more informed than mine would have been to the trollish cheap shot.

          17. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            A different viewpoint on the military academy admissions process:

            https://www.theamericanconservative.com/corruption-in-u-s-military-academies-is-harming-our-national-security/

            “A 2014 investigation by USA Today found that U.S. “representatives and senators . . . accepted more than $171,000 in campaign contributions from the families of students they’ve nominated to military service academies over the past two years.” Military officers will sometimes have two or three children attending or having graduated from an academy.”

          18. James C. Sherlock Avatar
            James C. Sherlock

            If you were a full troll, you would be a candidate for the troll olympics.

            Let’s examine “$171,000 from the families of students” .

            There are about 4,000 slots in the 5 military academies annually and 535 Senators and Representatives. You choose to characterize coincidence as causation. Do you not think it would be a astonishing, and a near statistical impossibility, if no parents with students in the academies gave campaign campaign donations to any of them?

            If they gave equally, that would be about $44 per set of parents for each acceptance.

            Do you think those worthies are selling academy positions for less than $50 each?

            Now let’s take on the “military officers sometimes have two or three children attending or having graduated from an academy”.

            Your life experience has apparently denied you knowledge of how the military fills its ranks and who fights its wars and dies for the country, including you.

            According to the Pew Research Center, 60% of veterans under 40 have an immediate family member who served. Among new recruits, 30% have a parent in the military, and 70% report a family member in the armed forces. Pentagon data show that 80% of recent troops come from a family where at least one parent, grandparent, aunt or uncle, sibling or cousin has also worn their nation’s uniform. More than 25% have a parent who has served.

            Without its families with traditions of service in the military, we would not have a military.

            So I have but one thing to say to families with more that one offspring who have attended the academies: Thank you.

            You should consider thanks and an apology to all of them.

            You are fortunate it is impermissible to call people names here.

          19. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            “You choose to characterize coincidence as causation.”

            I did not write either piece you know…

            “Without its families with traditions of service in the military, we would not have a military.”

            I don’t think anyone is contending the system is ineffective.

            “You are fortunate it is impermissible to call people names here.”

            Really… well thank goodness for that. Neither are personal attacks, btw…

    4. Lefty665 Avatar
      Lefty665

      “On the larger question, it is beyond ironic that, after decades of keeping Blacks in segregated schools…”

      Brown v Board of Education was decided in 1954. All pre Brown kids are old and dead or retired today. It is only a dwindling bunch of us geezers who were even alive when Brown was decided. Same goes for the Civil Rights act of 1964 the Voting Rights Act of 1965 and the Fair Housing Act of 1967. Court decisions and legislation transformed the country, and it happened before most Americans alive today were born.

      Hauling out historic segregation that was found illegal almost 70 years ago as an argument for discrimination today is bizarre and, as the Court held, unconstitutional.

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        You seem to think that school segregation ended with the Brown decision. The high school I graduated from in 1966 was segregated. The college I graduated from in 1970 may have had some Black students, but they were so few that they were unnoticed. The Supreme Court has severely weakened the Voting Rights Act.

        Most importantly, you seem to think that the effects of prior discrimination have gone away. Yes, society has undergone a significant transformation. But, all the effects have not been erased. For example, you ignored the point I made about Blacks not being able to accumulate wealth to pass on the the next generation. This op-ed in today’s R-TD makes that point much better than I can: https://richmond.com/zzstyling/view-oped-sig/commentary-want-to-make-access-to-college-fair-root-out-k-12-inequality/article_e8b3d94a-16b1-11ee-be4a-4b97903f60a0.html

        1. Lefty665 Avatar
          Lefty665

          I have never argued that America is a perfect place or that there is no more that needs to be done.

          I do argue the fact that America changed profoundly in the 1960s, and that is before the living memory of a large majority of living citizens.

          Results were not instantaneous and implementation varied, but they happened and transformed the country. I also argue that the country internalized Dr King’s dream that we judge people on the content of their character, not the color of their skin.

          For most Americans the primary vehicle for achieving inter generational wealth is home ownership. The Fair Housing Act of 1968 squarely addressed that issue. For all of us it takes a long time for that wealth to build, and the distribution is uneven. If I lived in a suburban area my house would be worth three times what it is rurally.

          You sell yourself short by taking a back seat to the RTD. The linked piece was long on assumptions and short on facts. You usually do better than that.

          The RTD piece included this startling misunderstanding of our schools: “School districts should continue the important work of equitably serving all students in ways that nurture diversity” Wrong, our schools need to teach all kids to read and write. The object of schools is not “diversity” it is “education” that enables all kids to achieve to the potential of their ability.

          1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
            Dick Hall-Sizemore

            I just thought of another aspect that has not been negated by Brown or legislation. Colleges give weight to legacies. Otherwise, why do they ask about them on applications? When my daughter applied to William and Mary, she could list two parents, a grandfather, an aunt, several great-uncles, and a slew of cousins who had graduated from the school. Her Black classmates could not list any such family members who graduated because they would have been forbidden to attend. (She was accepted, but chose to attend another school.)

          2. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            Your daughter should be proud she “saved” a spot at W&M that would have been denied a black classmate had she accepted. Of course she has to live with the guilt that going to any college may have denied a black person that spot. Such are the perils of being white in a county infested with systemic racism. Hope she’s not fragile.

            Legacies are about money for the schools. Endowments first, diversity gets hind tit.

    5. James C. Sherlock Avatar
      James C. Sherlock

      “Until Black kids in elementary schools are provided the same basic structure in reading and math that more affluent kids get”. But they are given the same structure in reading and math. Those are called the standards of learning. It is not the structure, but the execution of it that is faulty in some school divisions and individual schools.

      In Virginia, however, we offer no publicly-funded recourse to bad public schools and bad school divisions, and our constitution prevents the state from taking over the worst ones.

      I think you and I basically agree on the fixes for that, but Democratic voters in their primaries chased from the Senate the only Democrat – Chap Petersen – who may have supported school choice.

      So what do we do other than try to elect Republicans with the convictions – if all of them do – to make school choice happen?

  11. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    Now, I will argue against myself.

    The reality is that a Black student applying to UVa. who did not get accepted due to the lack of the extra “bump” that being Black might provide would likely get accepted by one of the less selective Va. colleges that are seeing its number of applications declining, such as Radford or Longwood. At that college, the Black student would likely get as good as, if not better than, an education than he or she would have had at UVa. The primary difference is the prestige associated with a UVa diploma. Does that make a difference? I don’t know. The son of a friend of mine is a Radford graduate and is doing quite well, for example.

    1. walter smith Avatar
      walter smith

      I think you asked the right question. Does it matter? The prestige of a UVA degree over a Radford likely does have influence for the first job. After that, I was never asked for a copy of my diploma, it was what did I do. Further, being better matched at a Radford might mean getting a better education than would have been obtained mismatched at a UVA. I think this program has been counterproductive and divisive, besides under the 14th amendment illegal.
      We have moved a loooong way from “a hand up, not a hand out.”

      1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        “After that, I was never asked for a copy of my diploma…”

        Did you take reference to it off your CV?

        1. walter smith Avatar
          walter smith

          No Troll, I never had a CV after the first job. Sorry to burst your whiny bubble.

      2. Teddy007 Avatar
        Teddy007

        I doubt if the algorithms used to screen job applicants are programs to consider the prestige of UVA. Having a history degree from UVA is going to screened out faster than having a business degree from Radford.

        1. walter smith Avatar
          walter smith

          Not disagreeing with you. I think UVA’s indoctrination and cost is destroying the so-called value proposition.

      3. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        Perhaps more than the education per se, attending UVa, or other prestige colleges, can provide connections, which are invaluable. Furthermore, that first job is crucial. It can be a dead end or, with connections, be a gateway to a bright future.

        1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          I did not go to UVa but I have a Virginia jacket. Everywhere I go (including internationally) I get “wahoowa!” from strangers passing me on the street… I just roll my eyes and move on… maybe someday I’ll reply “Go Tribe!”

          UVa Alumni is indeed a club, complete with a (not so secret) handshake…

          1. Lefty665 Avatar
            Lefty665

            A troll poser. Somehow that is not a surprise.

          2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Given how much I paid to the university, I think “UVa Dad” jacket is appropriate (or at least my kids did)… of course, the Wahooers are more interested in shouting out to fellow club members than reading the smaller print on said jacket … I consider it a strange mental condition…

        2. walter smith Avatar
          walter smith

          Maybe some…my work benefactors were out of DePaul, Alma and Florida State, and was really tied to an industry, where I did most of the work for a client which hired me. But the UVA part as to the first job certainly helped, but UofR/TC Williams would also have worked well for the downtown Richmond firm where I started.

    2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      Of course it makes a difference. There is a reason why these universities are elite and selective to begin with. It normally has nothing to do with the quality of the education.

    3. Teddy007 Avatar
      Teddy007

      Going to Longwood or Radford takes many career fields off the table. The top major at Radford is nursing. Three of the top five majors at Longwood are speech communications, criminal justice, and nursing.

      Look it up.

      1. James C. Sherlock Avatar
        James C. Sherlock

        In that view, the glasses at Longwood and Radford are half empty.

        In mine, they are much more than half full. Virginia and America need all the nurses we can get.

        1. Lefty665 Avatar
          Lefty665

          There is also an argument to be made that criminal justice could use some support too.

        2. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          It’s not the glasses, but the classes they’re trying to fill.

        3. Teddy007 Avatar
          Teddy007

          When judging high school science fairs, one sees it up close and personal. The students who got into MIT or Carnegie-Mellon know that the world is their oyster. The ones who are going to VT know that pull back their expectations.

    4. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Let me put it another way. If you were to think about opening a high-tech start up, would you choose San Francisco, or Jackson, Mississippi?

      FWIW, even Texas pales in this question compared to California. Mississippi does compare well to Honduras.

      1. Lefty665 Avatar
        Lefty665

        Odd fact I remember from long ago, ’70s. Many of the computer chips were manufactured in Central America. El Salvador sticks in my mind, but there were several source nations names on the chips.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          There’s a simple trick I use when trying to remember our source countries. Works every time. Just try to remember which country it was that had a bloodthirsty dictator who would line nuns and children against a wall…. My next car will be an EV made in Turkey or India. Maybe Texas.

    5. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Success, at a minimum, is having all one could want to eat while avoiding being eaten. I would certainly agree that the chances are good that a Longwood graduate and a UVa graduate would both succeed equally well.

      Now, at getting a full-ride ticket to a doctorate at, oh say, Oxford? Maybe not so much.

  12. Nathan Avatar

    From the article:
    How do we, as an association of UVa alumni, define “diversity”

    I think that is critically important, as well as what assumptions and stereotypes are packed into that word.

    Why is diversity of life experience used as an argument for admission, but measurements of diversity look primarily at race and gender?

    https://www.collegefactual.com/colleges/university-of-virginia-main-campus/student-life/diversity/#overall_diversity

    Why are blacks admitted to UVA assumed to be descendants of slaves, from disadvantaged backgrounds, etc. Is that truly the case? Not all blacks are descended from slaves, poor and from schools that have poor test scores.

    Why are Asians applicants assumed to be all the same, and not a diverse population itself? Are applicants descended from Japanese internment camps just like recent immigrants fleeing Hong Kong? Are descendants of Vietnamese Boat People the same as recent immigrants from Japan? How many other backgrounds are present from within the demographic labeled simply “Asian.”

    1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      “How do we, as an association of UVa alumni, define “diversity”?”

      By the looks of their Leadership page… they don’t… maybe through “ideology”…? Pshaw!

      1. Nathan Avatar

        You argue against your own contribution to this blog.

        Would Bacon’s Rebellion be better if all articles and comments were from people who represent the same “ideology” as you put it? Who would read or benefit from such an echo chamber?

        Colleges and Universities should be places where students are exposed to a variety of points of view. Or are echo chambers good, as long as they are liberal?

        1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          I am saying that the “association of [Conservative] UVa alumni” who are struggling with the University over defining and promoting “diversity” are hardly a diverse group.

          IOW, I agree with you… but maybe they should work on that timber in their own eye…

  13. I was once asked to be part of the team which evaluated application essays for admittance…. until I told the leader that I would reject every student with any grammatical error or misspelling in the essay…… what does that tell you about the process?

    1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      That they acknowledge that nobody is perfect…

      1. M. Purdy Avatar
        M. Purdy

        Or maybe they couldn’t pay for an admissions consultant to proof read the essay and application.

        1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
          Eric the half a troll

          Yes, that too…

    2. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      That it is truly a great mind that can think of more than just one way to spell a word?

      “I am about to — or I am going to — die. Either is correct.” — last words of Dominique Bouhours, French grammarian.

  14. Not Today Avatar
    Not Today

    Well, if this isn’t the most introspective and welcome bit of thought I’ve read from JAB…ever. BRAVO!

  15. James C. Sherlock Avatar
    James C. Sherlock

    In all of your discussions, Jim, ask yourselves why the median household income of Asian Americans is 35% higher that that of white Americans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income

    Ask yourselves why, from highest to lowest the average Indian, Taiwanese, Filipino, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Chinese, Japanese, Indonesian, Korean, Hmong, Thai, Nepalese, Vietnamese and Laotian households in America all make more money than white households.

    Where do they fit in the discussions of diversity? Many of the wealthiest of those groups are very dark skinned, so skin color is not a determinant of success in America.

    Does anyone think that the Hmong people, for example, somehow got a head start?

    Han Chinese rulers dubbed them barbarians, targeted them for genocide and drove many of them out of their southwest China homeland throughout the 18th and 19th century. Many settled in Vietnam, where Christian Hmong were Christian and on the French side during the colonial period. When Ho Chi Minh won, they left for South Vietnam and Laos.

    There, they fought side-by-side with the Americans, and were persecuted by the victorious Vietnamese. Persecuted for hundreds of years in Southeast Asia, many came here, as they had earned the right to do.

    It is myopic, in discussing diversity, to make it a white non-Hispanic vs. Hispanic vs. African American discussion. Those three ethnic groups are important, but not definitive of the American experience. Not any more.

  16. Tom B Avatar

    Are degrees from prestige schools still prestigious, or has the decline set in? It is now a fact that they are not taking the best and brightest, but are using subjective standards. Lowering standards to get them in means that they will have to lower standards to get them out, or they have figured out how to educate the lesser minds to the same level as the greater minds, making admission standards meaningless. (I guess you could fail them out, but does anyone believe they will?)

    About 30 years ago, I was having an impromptu, casual lunch with 2 retired CEOs from at least Fortune 500 if not 200 companies. Over some really good steak sandwiches, one said his son had just graduated from Vandy with an MBA. They decided that he would have to destroy at least 3 companies before he figured out what was going on. The other said that he had stopped hiring MBAs from prestige schools years before his retirement for that reason. His reasoning was: Give a guy with an MBA from U-IOWA who grew up on a farm. He knows what part of the cow the milk comes from. A shrewd CEO who researched where the Harvard rejects are going could find some real hidden gems.

    Then there’s the fact that, 50+ years after the start of the Great Society and having spent tens of trillions of dollars, we still have a persistent underclass and the left seems surprised. Weren’t they informed by the Court years ago that there was a sunset on the use of discrimination to end discrimination, and aren’t we at the end of that grace period? There’s no plan B, so apparently they thought the court was joking about the coming sunset, or they thought they could pack the court and continue to fail forward. It could also be that they can’t come up with a plan B because they are incapable of honest self-analysis.

    Which brings me to the obvious tension on the court. This week, justices Thomas, Roberts and Gorsuch have publically commented on the tone of the dissenting opinions from the 3 liberal members. Bravo! It’s past time that someone told the 5-year-olds to sit down, grow up and show some respect. From the president and the congressional democrats to commentors on internet forums, the modern liberal seems to feel it is his or her right to insult and denigrate anyone with whom they disagree. Where do they learn this crap? Oh, yeah, Harvard and UVA.

    1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      In relation to sitting liberal SCOTUS justices:

      “It’s past time that someone told the 5-year-olds to sit down…”

      “…to commentors on internet forums, the modern liberal seems to feel it is his or her right to insult and denigrate anyone with whom they disagree. Where do they learn this crap?”

      I can’t imagine…

      1. Tom B Avatar

        Ignoring the meat and potatoes, you complain about the broth, adding nothing to the meal. How predictable.

  17. Randy Huffman Avatar
    Randy Huffman

    I’m not in the education system or follow it as closely as many here so don’t have some of the insights, but to me the fundamental response by society should be to do more to prepare our children to go to college or wherever the next step may be. We do alot by opening areas such as STEM programs, but seems like for every step forward there are distractions or setbacks. Students need encouragement and mentorship and peers who are similarly motivated.

    For me, sports was a driving factor and I first learned hard work paid off in my athletics, and then hard work paid off in the classroom. For others it might be band or class clubs, etc.

    A long time ago we had a son who needed special help and we were able to send him to a private school for a few years, many don’t have that ability. That is where charter schools can do more and it’s baffling how many resist that.

    Another key we forget is that not getting into a UVA right after high school is not the end, our Community college system is strong and that is a second opportunity for motivated students. Community colleges have scholarship and other programs, we support them here and they do a great job. If a student hits their academic targets they can go to UVA other State colleges after a two year program.

    So rather than focus on college admissions, let’s focus on getting the students academically ready for wherever the student is going to go, whether a select college, trade school, military, or workforce.

    1. Teddy007 Avatar
      Teddy007

      Every STEM post-doc position has dozens of applicants. There are a few fields inside STEM that have openings but most employers want dead ringers who fit the position exactly and are unwilling to train anyone for even a minute.

      Preparing students more just makes the application more difficult since UVA is not adding seats at Virginia grows and most people consider the dumbest student at UVA smarter than the smartest student at VCU, VT, or George Mason.

      Instead of worrying about making getting into UVA more difficult, why not counsel students that there are pathways to their goals that do not require going to UVA. VCU has an honors track that would give a student an inside track to medical school at UVA.

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