by James A. Bacon

Speaking yesterday, Governor Ralph Northam gave his thoughts about the wave of protests and rioting that followed the death of George Floyd by the hand of a white Minneapolis policeman.

Floyd and others, he opined, were wrongfully killed “simply for being black.” People across the country are “hurting and angry, and rightfully so,” he said. “The fear that is so common in the hearts and lives of many is real — will someone I love be next?”

“We’ve got a lot of work to do in this country and in our Commonwealth,” he said. “As Governor of Virginia, I make the commitment to ensure that we continue to address these issues head on, even when it is uncomfortable and difficult because I believe our diversity is our greatest strength.” Read his full remarks here.

The overwhelming majority of Americans would agree that what happened to George Floyd was a tragedy, and an overwhelming majority want to see the policeman who killed him, Derek Chauvin, brought to justice. Seemingly forgotten in the chaos of the past week, he is being brought to justice. Chauvin has been charged with third-degree murder and manslaughter.

I take exception to Northam’s remarks on several grounds, but I fault him more for what he did not say even more than what he did say.

Northam said nothing about the hundreds of protesters around the country who were arrested for vandalism, looting and violent assaults. What do we conclude from his silence? Does he find vandalism, looting and violence to be a justifiable response to injustice, as some have argued? Or is he reluctant, perhaps for fear of political blow back, to mention the subject?

The Governor expressed no sympathy for victims of the riots — people like David Dorn, the black police chief of Moline Acres, Missouri, who was killed by looters who broke into a pawn shop…. People like a yet-to-be-named Las Vegas policeman who was shot in the head by a rioter and remains in critical condition.

Northam offered no words of condolence in his statement for the store owners, many of them black, who have seen their life’s work destroyed by looters. Store owners like Greg Mileski, whose Balance Bicycle Shop on Richmond’s West Broad Street was thoroughly looted….  like Jasmine Jahangiri, operator of Coliseum Deli near Virginia Commonwealth University, where looters broke a large window, stole cash and soda, and sprayed soda everywhere…. businesses like businesses like Waller & Co. Jewelry Store, where looters stole watches and jewelry, and shoe and housewares shop Need Supply Co., which was broken into and looted. (See the Virginia Business article here.)

Is it not possible to decry racial injustice while also criticizing those who spread violence and mayhem? Apparently not.

I also fault the Governor for feeding the proposition that black people are justifiably fearful of being killed for “being black.” As I noted a few days ago, there were only 28 officer-involved in shootings in Virginia last year. Half resulted in deaths. Nationally, about one-fourth of the people killed by police are black. (Virginia doesn’t track the race of police-related killing victims.) If that ratio held true in Virginia, it would translate into four or five incidents of blacks being killed by police last year. And in almost every instance, such killings occurred when the victims were resisting arrest or posing an imminent threat. Here in Virginia at least, police do not randomly seek out unarmed black people to brutalize. If African-Americans fear such victimization, that’s not a reflection of reality but of the national media’s proclivity for giving massive play to extremely rare and unrepresentative cases and portraying them as if they were an epidemic.

Likewise, contrary to the impression created by the widely publicized Georgia case in which a black jogger was gunned down by two white men, there is no evidence that blacks are disproportionately the victims of inter-racial crime. To the contrary, African-Americans are less likely than whites to be victims.

The 2019 Crime in Virginia report breaks out the number of “victims” and “offenders” of violent crimes. It does not provide numbers for black-on-white or white-on-black crimes specifically, but the numbers are telling.

Last year 8,051 African-Americans were the victims of violent crimes; 8,769 were known offenders. In other words, while black criminals preyed primarily upon members of their own race, they afflicted other races as well. By contrast, there were 9,968 white victims and 6,655 offenders. In other words, while whites were most likely to be victimized by other whites, a large percentage were victims of attacks from other races. (Asians and “other” races account for an infinitesimal share of violent offenders — 150 — last year.) If any racial group has an empirically grounded justification for fearing violence at the hands of someone of another race, it is white people.

When opining on such topics, Northam has a responsibility to share the facts rather than magnify misleading impressions created by an ideologically driven national media. If he wants to promote racial healing and reconciliation, his remarks do not help.


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Comments

103 responses to “Ralph Northam on the Racial Protests”

  1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    Why did Northam ignore the failure of Jacob Frey to do his job and to follow his campaign platform of police reform? I’ll say it. Jacob Frey is a “progressive Democrat.” Progressive Democrats are immune from criticism. Just ask the editorial board of the Post, who endorsed Northam and failed to investigate and publicize his famous blackface portrait and school nickname.

    Smoke indicates the probable existence of a fire only when doesn’t involve a Democrat.

  2. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    Why did Northam ignore the failure of Jacob Frey to do his job and to follow his campaign platform of police reform? I’ll say it. Jacob Frey is a “progressive Democrat.” Progressive Democrats are immune from criticism. Just ask the editorial board of the Post, who endorsed Northam and failed to investigate and publicize his famous blackface portrait and school nickname.

    Smoke indicates the probable existence of a fire only when doesn’t involve a Democrat.

  3. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Excellent points.

    And why did Northam fail to raise all the many things you raised that he should have raised as a political leader of all Virginians?

    I believe he did not because Virginia’s governor is a chronic race-baiter for his own political advantage, his party’s, and his cronies. I believe his record along with his speech yesterday proves it without doubt.

    1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      Regarding your excellent points, Jim read this in WSJ:

      https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883

      In addition the statistics show that the far larger problem is the safely of black people, including children and elderly and women in, black neighborhoods. And in DC, that surely was the case, and widely reported as such, after the late 1960s riots in DC. Many blacks feared to return to their homes, and locked themselves inside, living in fear, when they did. I knew several of them. Many formerly vibrant neighborhoods have not come back to this day. A whole vibrant and rich culture was lost.

  4. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Excellent points.

    And why did Northam fail to raise all the many things you raised that he should have raised as a political leader of all Virginians?

    I believe he did not because Virginia’s governor is a chronic race-baiter for his own political advantage, his party’s, and his cronies. I believe his record along with his speech yesterday proves it without doubt.

    1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      Regarding your excellent points, Jim read this in WSJ:

      https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-myth-of-systemic-police-racism-11591119883

      In addition the statistics show that the far larger problem is the safely of black people, including children and elderly and women in, black neighborhoods. And in DC, that surely was the case, and widely reported as such, after the late 1960s riots in DC. Many blacks feared to return to their homes, and locked themselves inside, living in fear, when they did. I knew several of them. Many formerly vibrant neighborhoods have not come back to this day. A whole vibrant and rich culture was lost.

  5. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Jim, calm down. The black jogger case was in Georgia, not North Carolina.

    1. Thanks for pointing out the error. My bad. Correction made…..

  6. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Jim, calm down. The black jogger case was in Georgia, not North Carolina.

    1. Thanks for pointing out the error. My bad. Correction made…..

  7. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    Part of the story at least is the unions protect these guys, and then cross pressure the Democratic politicians. And police unions are in Virginia’s future. Larry and Nancy won’t believe this is a major part of why I fought that bill, that and the protection of loser teachers. It was.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      That’s what RICO is for.

  8. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Naw. I think both teachers and police officers need to have some form of employee groups and to be able to collectively bargainbut … I do not favor neither teachers nor police have the right to strike.

    Just curious – does the NN shipyard have unions?

  9. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    Statistics are meaningless in the face of fear. The fear is real. I’ve heard it from too many people in the last few days. The fear of the police, and of unwarranted harassment, is as real today as it was in 1965. And you cannot say with no reason. I don’t think twice about the grand kids being out on their bikes, but black parents and grandparents do every day. This must end.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Qualified immunity… leads to this. It’s the guard-prisoner psychology experiment, that was done in the 60s, gone amuck.

      But what do we think we know about the early development of a child who becomes a serial killer? What’s the one thing most have in common? How do they start?

      https://reason.com/2014/11/21/buffalo-police-shot-92-dogs-since-2011-m/

      BTW, that was published in 2014, so in 3 years. The story covers only 3 years.

  10. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    Statistics are meaningless in the face of fear. The fear is real. I’ve heard it from too many people in the last few days. The fear of the police, and of unwarranted harassment, is as real today as it was in 1965. And you cannot say with no reason. I don’t think twice about the grand kids being out on their bikes, but black parents and grandparents do every day. This must end.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Qualified immunity… leads to this. It’s the guard-prisoner psychology experiment, that was done in the 60s, gone amuck.

      But what do we think we know about the early development of a child who becomes a serial killer? What’s the one thing most have in common? How do they start?

      https://reason.com/2014/11/21/buffalo-police-shot-92-dogs-since-2011-m/

      BTW, that was published in 2014, so in 3 years. The story covers only 3 years.

  11. Chris Braunlich Avatar
    Chris Braunlich

    Ditto Steve’s comments. In politics there’s an old expression “perception is reality.” It is here, too. I know a white woman, single mother, business owner, lives in Queens, NY. Had two foster children who were black and she decided to adopt them. When her son became a teen-ager, she sat down with him and had “the talk.” It is real for those parents, statistics or not.

  12. Chris Braunlich Avatar
    Chris Braunlich

    Ditto Steve’s comments. In politics there’s an old expression “perception is reality.” It is here, too. I know a white woman, single mother, business owner, lives in Queens, NY. Had two foster children who were black and she decided to adopt them. When her son became a teen-ager, she sat down with him and had “the talk.” It is real for those parents, statistics or not.

  13. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Interesting, so how does Steve and Chris feel about all those Black Lives Matter signs the protestors are carrying? Bogus, antifas, looters.. or Real issue?

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Even your life matters to me, Larry. Looters keep their hands free for boodle. Anarchists for their rocks. The people with signs I tend to view as sincere.

  14. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Interesting, so how does Steve and Chris feel about all those Black Lives Matter signs the protestors are carrying? Bogus, antifas, looters.. or Real issue?

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Even your life matters to me, Larry. Looters keep their hands free for boodle. Anarchists for their rocks. The people with signs I tend to view as sincere.

  15. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    I, too, join in with Steve’s comments. I will repeat what I posted a couple days ago because it was very far down in a long list of comments. It is the repsonse of a black friend who I asked if he had ever been harrassed by police on account of his race:

    “Have I ever been bothered or harassed by police because of my race? YES..on multiple occasions, in multiple localities. I will give you the most recent example that occurred about 2 years ago here in the City of Richmond, I remember it very vividly….I was driving home from choir practice one night when I passed a police car that was traveling in the opposite direction. It’s sad to say but true, but when I pass a police car the first thing I do is look in the rear view mirror and sure enough, in this case, the police car did a u-turn and was now following me. At the time I was on the phone with [my wife] and I told her the police were following me and subsequently turned on their flashers. I told [her] I was going to put the phone down because the officers were approaching my car. Two officers came up to my car, one on the driver side and one on the passenger side. The officer that approached my driver side window said they noticed that my “rear brake light was out”. He asked for my drivers license and registration, then he asked me to get out of the car. I got out of the car, and one officer stood beside me and tried to engage in small talk, while the other searched the inside of my car, including a thorough search of my car ashtray. I was furious but I couldn’t show any emotion as I didn’t want to provoke them in any way. This is just one instance, it’s not the only one…”

  16. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    I, too, join in with Steve’s comments. I will repeat what I posted a couple days ago because it was very far down in a long list of comments. It is the repsonse of a black friend who I asked if he had ever been harrassed by police on account of his race:

    “Have I ever been bothered or harassed by police because of my race? YES..on multiple occasions, in multiple localities. I will give you the most recent example that occurred about 2 years ago here in the City of Richmond, I remember it very vividly….I was driving home from choir practice one night when I passed a police car that was traveling in the opposite direction. It’s sad to say but true, but when I pass a police car the first thing I do is look in the rear view mirror and sure enough, in this case, the police car did a u-turn and was now following me. At the time I was on the phone with [my wife] and I told her the police were following me and subsequently turned on their flashers. I told [her] I was going to put the phone down because the officers were approaching my car. Two officers came up to my car, one on the driver side and one on the passenger side. The officer that approached my driver side window said they noticed that my “rear brake light was out”. He asked for my drivers license and registration, then he asked me to get out of the car. I got out of the car, and one officer stood beside me and tried to engage in small talk, while the other searched the inside of my car, including a thorough search of my car ashtray. I was furious but I couldn’t show any emotion as I didn’t want to provoke them in any way. This is just one instance, it’s not the only one…”

  17. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Well, that was unsatisfying sorta not very specific!

    On the pages, over months, perhaps years, there have been more than a few posts (and comments) that question the legitimacy of the Black Lives Matter movement.

    We’ve heard about the bad cops and the bad actors that loot and vandalize, the antifas, and the protestors who are said to be “sincere”… but not a whole lot about whether their core premise about Black Lives Mattering is righteous and legitimate.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Knock yourself out looking for them. I’ve eaten my own words before. Any and all movements involve human beings with complex motivations, not always straight-forward or as advertised. That Black Lives Matter is self-evident.

      If you know of any time on this blog or in my real life I have said, implied, or acted in a way to indicate that black lives matter less than others or not at all, I’d be happy to hear your example. You won’t have one.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        No.. I know in your case. I have never heard you say so. Sorry if you thought I implied it.

  18. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Well, that was unsatisfying sorta not very specific!

    On the pages, over months, perhaps years, there have been more than a few posts (and comments) that question the legitimacy of the Black Lives Matter movement.

    We’ve heard about the bad cops and the bad actors that loot and vandalize, the antifas, and the protestors who are said to be “sincere”… but not a whole lot about whether their core premise about Black Lives Mattering is righteous and legitimate.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Knock yourself out looking for them. I’ve eaten my own words before. Any and all movements involve human beings with complex motivations, not always straight-forward or as advertised. That Black Lives Matter is self-evident.

      If you know of any time on this blog or in my real life I have said, implied, or acted in a way to indicate that black lives matter less than others or not at all, I’d be happy to hear your example. You won’t have one.

  19. The fear is real, no question. The question I’m trying to raise is whether that fear is justified by reality or a construct created by media cherry-picking of all-too-real but rare abuses and acting as if they were representative of all police-civilian interactions.

    As for the example of Dick’s friend…. Nothing happened! The guy got stopped for a bad break light, his car got searched, and…. nothing happened! Maybe he shouldn’t have been searched. I’m open to that argument. Maybe “driving while black” is a real problem. I’m open to that argument, too. But that’s far different from the claim that black people are justified in not feeling safe.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Do you really believe his brake light was out? If you were stopped for a minor equipment malfunction, would two police officers approach the car, one on each side? Would the officers ask you to step out of the car, rather than give you a warning about the brake light? Would the officers thoroughly search your car?

    2. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      If you listen to nothing else Jim – know that I accept it is real and not without basis, and then is reinforced by incidents like Minneapolis, Georgia.

  20. The fear is real, no question. The question I’m trying to raise is whether that fear is justified by reality or a construct created by media cherry-picking of all-too-real but rare abuses and acting as if they were representative of all police-civilian interactions.

    As for the example of Dick’s friend…. Nothing happened! The guy got stopped for a bad break light, his car got searched, and…. nothing happened! Maybe he shouldn’t have been searched. I’m open to that argument. Maybe “driving while black” is a real problem. I’m open to that argument, too. But that’s far different from the claim that black people are justified in not feeling safe.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Do you really believe his brake light was out? If you were stopped for a minor equipment malfunction, would two police officers approach the car, one on each side? Would the officers ask you to step out of the car, rather than give you a warning about the brake light? Would the officers thoroughly search your car?

    2. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      If you listen to nothing else Jim – know that I accept it is real and not without basis, and then is reinforced by incidents like Minneapolis, Georgia.

  21. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    All the progressive programs in the world won’t stop bad cops from harassing, injuring and killing blacks. Minneapolis adopted zoning ordinance changes abolishing single family zoning. The great progressive land use goal. And yet four policemen were involved in the killing of George Floyd.

    Fairfax County’s One Fairfax program is progressive politics. But that won’t ensure we won’t see a repeat of Minneapolis.

    It requires police chiefs and elected officials to review the records of their officers and get rid of those who are abusive to the public, most especially blacks; fail to follow training; fail to follow laws, rules and regulations; who enjoy/provoke violence. Follow the due process rules, but build a case and fire the bad ones. Institute and provide proper training on a regular basis. Have an open-minded citizens review board that investigates resident complaints. Make the findings public.

    Jacob Frey and his police chief didn’t do this. As a result, George Floyd is dead. Among most Democrats and MSM, this is a taboo subject. What was the saying of the Gay community when AIDs first hit? Silence equals death.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Your points and recommendations are excellent. Maybe this incident will prove the catalyst for these things to be done. What do you think of a requirement that at least one member of a citizens review board be a retired cop? There is a danger that she might protect a friend that was accused, but she would bring the perspective of a law enforcement officee on the beat that civilian citizens would not have.

    2. idiocracy Avatar
      idiocracy

      It might also require getting rid of police unions.

  22. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    All the progressive programs in the world won’t stop bad cops from harassing, injuring and killing blacks. Minneapolis adopted zoning ordinance changes abolishing single family zoning. The great progressive land use goal. And yet four policemen were involved in the killing of George Floyd.

    Fairfax County’s One Fairfax program is progressive politics. But that won’t ensure we won’t see a repeat of Minneapolis.

    It requires police chiefs and elected officials to review the records of their officers and get rid of those who are abusive to the public, most especially blacks; fail to follow training; fail to follow laws, rules and regulations; who enjoy/provoke violence. Follow the due process rules, but build a case and fire the bad ones. Institute and provide proper training on a regular basis. Have an open-minded citizens review board that investigates resident complaints. Make the findings public.

    Jacob Frey and his police chief didn’t do this. As a result, George Floyd is dead. Among most Democrats and MSM, this is a taboo subject. What was the saying of the Gay community when AIDs first hit? Silence equals death.

    1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      Your points and recommendations are excellent. Maybe this incident will prove the catalyst for these things to be done. What do you think of a requirement that at least one member of a citizens review board be a retired cop? There is a danger that she might protect a friend that was accused, but she would bring the perspective of a law enforcement officee on the beat that civilian citizens would not have.

    2. idiocracy Avatar
      idiocracy

      It might also require getting rid of police unions.

  23. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    Finally, Walz does something. https://www.startribune.com/minn-officials-push-for-systems-change-at-minneapolis-police-dept/570958652/

    No criticism of Frey, however. And the little S-head isn’t taking responsibility. But maybe the men and women on the Minnesota Human Rights Department will have the stones to find facts and determine what the mayor failed to do. Here’s hoping. I’m one of these people. I was born and raised in St. Paul. We need to do the right thing.

  24. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    Finally, Walz does something. https://www.startribune.com/minn-officials-push-for-systems-change-at-minneapolis-police-dept/570958652/

    No criticism of Frey, however. And the little S-head isn’t taking responsibility. But maybe the men and women on the Minnesota Human Rights Department will have the stones to find facts and determine what the mayor failed to do. Here’s hoping. I’m one of these people. I was born and raised in St. Paul. We need to do the right thing.

  25. vaconsumeradvocate Avatar
    vaconsumeradvocate

    The fear is real. It is around us every day. Even on college campuses, black men are routinely disrespected. That’s what my Black students have told me. Maybe it will help if I share a Facebook post from my alumni. This is from a NOVA born and currently NOVA resident who is now a parent. His quote below refers to his two children. He is a quiet person by temperament and some may find his name exotic. He and his sister, who is also an alum of our program, were star track and field athletes and excellent students:
    In the 4th grade, my sister and I were spit on and called “Ni**ers” by white kids that attended our elementary school. I remember crying just about all night and having to see the guidance counselor the next day to discuss the situation.

    Fast forward to 16 year old Eb in the neighborhood I grew up in. My best friend and I were pulled over because we “seemed suspicious.” That day, I learned that it takes 3 cop cars with 6 officers to question a black and Hispanic kid because surely there is no way they are in a nice car that they didn’t steal or buy with drug money (yes, they questioned what we did and if there were drugs in the car).

    Fast forward one more time to 2016. While walking to my car at the commuter parking lot, I was yelled at by 2 white men driving a truck…”Run ni**er run.” As I stopped and stared them down, they slowed down and made a u-turn. I did begin to run for fear that they wanted to harm me. As other cars approached, they drove off. Anger filled my heart that night. The trauma from all previous experiences seemed to all come out in that moment because a grown man in his 20’s cried uncontrollably on his wife’s shoulder for hours.

    I share pieces of my story because at 31 years old in one of the more diverse places in the U.S., I’ve dealt with racism. It’s a problem. It sucks. It’s not okay. I’m not okay. I want better for both Alexander and Camilla and I will fight for that.

    God bless us all.

    #Blacklivesmatter

    I can share other examples from my alumni. He is not alone. He does not complain. He has never been in trouble and is in fact, a leader. He is not weak physically or emotionally. He’s stoic. He is always well dressed, polite to a fault, and very well spoken. He’s 31 today and the event he referred to last happened on VT campus as he walked toward a campus parking lot when he was 27 – and was on campus as an alum. He’s a successful adult whose career is moving forward and for whom I have nothing but respect. We need to accept that this is real and change is necessary.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      http://alturl.com/ytuvu

      The thing to remember about that is, it’s more than 60 years old.

    2. TooManyTaxes Avatar
      TooManyTaxes

      What do you think about the failure of the Minneapolis mayor and his police chief to have removed at least Chauvin and Thao based on their records, most especially because Mayor Frey campaigned on this pledge (election was in 2017) and hammered the incumbent mayor (also a Democrat) for her failure to fix the police department?

      I grew up across the Mississippi in St. Paul. The idea of permitting people like Chauvin and Thao to be carrying guns and badges and wielding the power of law over people in places where I spent my youth and early 20s enrages me. I went to Mpls for law school for three years. What would your African-American students likely say about the specific facts of the case?

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Do we know what the infractions against Chauvin were?

        Were they similar type offenses involving excessive force?

        I don’t know the types of complaints that are involved and whether they are very serious – like abusing civilians or lower level complaints.

        Do officers normally get fired if they accumulate “x” number of complaints, etc. I don’t think we know… we’re supposing…

        So.. if Chauvin had a record of physically abusing people – I would agree that the ball got dropped and actions take up the food chain.

        But if many veterans accumulate complaints over the years, one a year, and they are not about physical abuse or mistreatment of people then we need to know more about the history of the officer.

        This guy went off the farm. The question is – did the department know he was that kind of person based on his prior complaint history.

        I just don’t think we can assume that all his prior complaints were physical abuse complaints.

        I’d still like to see a “good” model of Policing… one that we can point to and say that if Minneapolis was doing it that way , this would not have happened.

        We just know so little about how law enforcement actually does operate until there is a very public episode.

        Similarly – these other 3 cops. If they have good records.. and they ended up in a bad situation not of their own making and they made a bad mistake about their own behavior – I wonder what level of offense they might be charged with that would be agreed to by a jury.

        And speaking of – jury nullification – if the jury is sympathetic to police work.

        I just don’t think we fix the problem in Minneapolis by firing the Major and Police Chief… all that would do is foment more chaos.

        1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
          TooManyTaxes

          Full answer later. Chauvin has been involved in officer involved shootings that resulted in death. Thao beat a handcuffed black man. Got to protect Frey the guy whose campaign beat up the Democratic incumbent for failing to clean out the bad cops.

  26. vaconsumeradvocate Avatar
    vaconsumeradvocate

    The fear is real. It is around us every day. Even on college campuses, black men are routinely disrespected. That’s what my Black students have told me. Maybe it will help if I share a Facebook post from my alumni. This is from a NOVA born and currently NOVA resident who is now a parent. His quote below refers to his two children. He is a quiet person by temperament and some may find his name exotic. He and his sister, who is also an alum of our program, were star track and field athletes and excellent students:
    In the 4th grade, my sister and I were spit on and called “Ni**ers” by white kids that attended our elementary school. I remember crying just about all night and having to see the guidance counselor the next day to discuss the situation.

    Fast forward to 16 year old Eb in the neighborhood I grew up in. My best friend and I were pulled over because we “seemed suspicious.” That day, I learned that it takes 3 cop cars with 6 officers to question a black and Hispanic kid because surely there is no way they are in a nice car that they didn’t steal or buy with drug money (yes, they questioned what we did and if there were drugs in the car).

    Fast forward one more time to 2016. While walking to my car at the commuter parking lot, I was yelled at by 2 white men driving a truck…”Run ni**er run.” As I stopped and stared them down, they slowed down and made a u-turn. I did begin to run for fear that they wanted to harm me. As other cars approached, they drove off. Anger filled my heart that night. The trauma from all previous experiences seemed to all come out in that moment because a grown man in his 20’s cried uncontrollably on his wife’s shoulder for hours.

    I share pieces of my story because at 31 years old in one of the more diverse places in the U.S., I’ve dealt with racism. It’s a problem. It sucks. It’s not okay. I’m not okay. I want better for both Alexander and Camilla and I will fight for that.

    God bless us all.

    #Blacklivesmatter

    I can share other examples from my alumni. He is not alone. He does not complain. He has never been in trouble and is in fact, a leader. He is not weak physically or emotionally. He’s stoic. He is always well dressed, polite to a fault, and very well spoken. He’s 31 today and the event he referred to last happened on VT campus as he walked toward a campus parking lot when he was 27 – and was on campus as an alum. He’s a successful adult whose career is moving forward and for whom I have nothing but respect. We need to accept that this is real and change is necessary.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      http://alturl.com/ytuvu

      The thing to remember about that is, it’s more than 60 years old.

    2. TooManyTaxes Avatar
      TooManyTaxes

      What do you think about the failure of the Minneapolis mayor and his police chief to have removed at least Chauvin and Thao based on their records, most especially because Mayor Frey campaigned on this pledge (election was in 2017) and hammered the incumbent mayor (also a Democrat) for her failure to fix the police department?

      I grew up across the Mississippi in St. Paul. The idea of permitting people like Chauvin and Thao to be carrying guns and badges and wielding the power of law over people in places where I spent my youth and early 20s enrages me. I went to Mpls for law school for three years. What would your African-American students likely say about the specific facts of the case?

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Do we know what the infractions against Chauvin were?

        Were they similar type offenses involving excessive force?

        I don’t know the types of complaints that are involved and whether they are very serious – like abusing civilians or lower level complaints.

        Do officers normally get fired if they accumulate “x” number of complaints, etc. I don’t think we know… we’re supposing…

        So.. if Chauvin had a record of physically abusing people – I would agree that the ball got dropped and actions take up the food chain.

        But if many veterans accumulate complaints over the years, one a year, and they are not about physical abuse or mistreatment of people then we need to know more about the history of the officer.

        This guy went off the farm. The question is – did the department know he was that kind of person based on his prior complaint history.

        I just don’t think we can assume that all his prior complaints were physical abuse complaints.

        I’d still like to see a “good” model of Policing… one that we can point to and say that if Minneapolis was doing it that way , this would not have happened.

        We just know so little about how law enforcement actually does operate until there is a very public episode.

        Similarly – these other 3 cops. If they have good records.. and they ended up in a bad situation not of their own making and they made a bad mistake about their own behavior – I wonder what level of offense they might be charged with that would be agreed to by a jury.

        And speaking of – jury nullification – if the jury is sympathetic to police work.

        I just don’t think we fix the problem in Minneapolis by firing the Major and Police Chief… all that would do is foment more chaos.

        1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
          TooManyTaxes

          Full answer later. Chauvin has been involved in officer involved shootings that resulted in death. Thao beat a handcuffed black man. Got to protect Frey the guy whose campaign beat up the Democratic incumbent for failing to clean out the bad cops.

  27. matthurt92 Avatar
    matthurt92

    It seems to me that both sides are talking past one another. Maybe conservatives and progressives can’t walk and chew bubblegum at the same time. Conservatives many times tend to overlook the bigger issue of the racism to focus on the bad actors who hide in the midst of the protesters. Progressives overlook the bad actors for fear of coloring the entire protests with those bad deeds. All of the tribalism seems to keep people apart on this, whereas I really believe folks are closer together than the letter beside their names would otherwise make us believe. I don’t think anyone really condones the violence of the police any more than the violence of the looters. But unfortunately we have to remain ideologically bound to our tribe so that the other side doesn’t get one up on us.

  28. matthurt92 Avatar
    matthurt92

    It seems to me that both sides are talking past one another. Maybe conservatives and progressives can’t walk and chew bubblegum at the same time. Conservatives many times tend to overlook the bigger issue of the racism to focus on the bad actors who hide in the midst of the protesters. Progressives overlook the bad actors for fear of coloring the entire protests with those bad deeds. All of the tribalism seems to keep people apart on this, whereas I really believe folks are closer together than the letter beside their names would otherwise make us believe. I don’t think anyone really condones the violence of the police any more than the violence of the looters. But unfortunately we have to remain ideologically bound to our tribe so that the other side doesn’t get one up on us.

  29. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Every psycho-killer starts someplace…
    “During the time period analyzed by WGRZ-TV, one individual officer shot 26 dogs, killing nearly all of them. In the years 2011 and 2012 alone, this officer killed as many dogs in the line of duty as the entire NYPD.”

  30. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Every psycho-killer starts someplace…
    “During the time period analyzed by WGRZ-TV, one individual officer shot 26 dogs, killing nearly all of them. In the years 2011 and 2012 alone, this officer killed as many dogs in the line of duty as the entire NYPD.”

  31. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    Part of the story at least is the unions protect these guys, and then cross pressure the Democratic politicians. And police unions are in Virginia’s future. Larry and Nancy won’t believe this is a major part of why I fought that bill, that and the protection of loser teachers. It was.

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      That’s what RICO is for.

  32. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Naw. I think both teachers and police officers need to have some form of employee groups and to be able to collectively bargainbut … I do not favor neither teachers nor police have the right to strike.

    Just curious – does the NN shipyard have unions?

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Yes, but Va is Right to Work which really means you get the benefits of collective bargaining without paying for it.

    2. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Largest union local in the whole country, Steelworkers Local 8888.

  33. kls59 Avatar

    and 21 killed, 60 wounded from shootings in Chicago this past weekend…. and not a word about that systemic racist activity — all were black or brown!

  34. kls59 Avatar

    and 21 killed, 60 wounded from shootings in Chicago this past weekend…. and not a word about that systemic racist activity — all were black or brown!

  35. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Things could be worse. Practice for Dresden? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre

  36. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Things could be worse. Practice for Dresden? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre

  37. VDOTyranny Avatar
    VDOTyranny

    No doubt the fear is real. Obviously, there are real incidents. I’d like to hear or read first person examples. Its hard to walk in another’s shoes.

    What gets me is how the young white protestors “feel oppressed”. Yeah, guess what kid, the youth in every generation since WW2 felt oppressed by the police. Just because they broke-up your block party doesn’t mean you’re “oppressed,” young Karen and Chad. As a youth, we went through it too; we saw the hyprocrites in the police also. But, we also didn’t always realize we were being disrespectiful of other people and thier property.

    But, then there’s the ABC incident in cHarlottesville a few years ago. Up until that time, there were a lot of cowboys and zealots in ABC, and the regs are so muddy they could harress you at-will. Business owners (who happen to be people also) got harrassed too (I’m glad to say now, the ABC agents I know, are reasonable and fair.) Theres no shortage of cowboys with armored vehicles swatting the wrong house.

    At the same time, I’ve had conversations with adults who felt they were being singled-out because they were this, that or the other thing. No, many people are equal opportunity a-holes; its not racism or sexism and its just not you, either (ok, sometimes it is you.)

    The questions to me are: what of this is a perceived offense, and what is real? Further, how do we quell that fear? People that are empowered to take your life, liberty and property have to be held to standards higher than qualifed immunity, but the solution isn’t going to be found by our political parties. Maybe, its giving less power to the government

  38. VDOTyranny Avatar
    VDOTyranny

    No doubt the fear is real. Obviously, there are real incidents. I’d like to hear or read first person examples. Its hard to walk in another’s shoes.

    What gets me is how the young white protestors “feel oppressed”. Yeah, guess what kid, the youth in every generation since WW2 felt oppressed by the police. Just because they broke-up your block party doesn’t mean you’re “oppressed,” young Karen and Chad. As a youth, we went through it too; we saw the hyprocrites in the police also. But, we also didn’t always realize we were being disrespectiful of other people and thier property.

    But, then there’s the ABC incident in cHarlottesville a few years ago. Up until that time, there were a lot of cowboys and zealots in ABC, and the regs are so muddy they could harress you at-will. Business owners (who happen to be people also) got harrassed too (I’m glad to say now, the ABC agents I know, are reasonable and fair.) Theres no shortage of cowboys with armored vehicles swatting the wrong house.

    At the same time, I’ve had conversations with adults who felt they were being singled-out because they were this, that or the other thing. No, many people are equal opportunity a-holes; its not racism or sexism and its just not you, either (ok, sometimes it is you.)

    The questions to me are: what of this is a perceived offense, and what is real? Further, how do we quell that fear? People that are empowered to take your life, liberty and property have to be held to standards higher than qualifed immunity, but the solution isn’t going to be found by our political parties. Maybe, its giving less power to the government

  39. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Excellent Comment.

  40. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Excellent Comment.

    1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      The Chart is perfect example of the gross dishonestly and irresponsibility of the Mainstream Media in America.

      This charts posting here without explanation or comment also shows how malevolent lies can be instantly spread across the nation to fuel confusion, anger, hate and fear throughout America.

      Is this a Russian, Iranian, Chinese, or North Korea bot disseminating this garbage? Or is it CNBC?

      Please note how this chart is assembled, organized, and labelled to grossly mislead, indeed spread lies, aided by useful idiots.

      1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        Now too, University of Virginia’s President Jim Ryan yet again folds into a full abject grovel. Now he apologizes for his being white, and for much else besides, after having last Sunday gone off the script of dictated to him by his masters, wherein he failed to mention his white skin color and much else besides, in his grovel last Sunday.

        Jim Ryan now sounds like a man in captivity, a POW who is captive in his own just renovated mansion, a remodeling job that cost Virginia taxpayer’s $10,000,000+++, before its roof fell in and little Jimmy’s vastly privileged world fell apart.

        For more on the grovel see:
        https://news.virginia.edu/content/looking-backward-looking-forward

      2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        Steve says: “The use of the term “police killings” is a bit loaded.”

        Yes, using the term term “police killings” is a bit loaded.” As is ending the chart at the bottom with the label “Source Mapping Police Violence.”

        It amounts to bald faced lies if the majority, or vast majority, of these fatal encounters were unavoidable to protect peoples’ lives and safety, their property and livelihoods, their communities and civilization from lawlessness, chaos, looting and arson, murder, rape and mayhem.

    2. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      It would be even more interesting if the data was then compared to the underlying crime stats. Two cities with the same basic crime rates that had wildly different number of deadly police encounters would raise a red flag. But any such event should always raise concerns and demand close scrutiny and accountability. Glad to see the one Virginia city so low.

      1. Steve Haner Avatar
        Steve Haner

        Wow, what a different reaction from me and Reed! Posted about the same second….Perhaps the link, Larry? I don’t doubt it but confirmation welcome. The use of the term “police killings” is a bit loaded. There are certainly times we all want the police to use deadly force if needed (think an active mall shooter.)

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          does “flying off the handle” … sound right? I posted it – with the reference – to demonstrate there is a wide range of rates across the cities and some cities apparently are doing something right if one believes the stats.

          You guys might need to take a bit of a break from the usual grumping!

          I’m expecting a post on the pending outrage on the Lee Monument shortly – just a matter of who will post! 😉

          1. Steve Haner Avatar
            Steve Haner

            And I don’t think my response was “grumping,” thank you.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            well for you, yes… 😉

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          re: an active mall shooter – YEP – charts that break the killings down into categories LIKE that would also help to further pinpoint the cities that really do pretty well at not having killlings except where there are incidents like active shooters, domestic violence, etc.

          If you take the time to go look at the website – you’ll see they have several charts that do give some context… and again it’s that context that motivated me to share the site and I purposely chose the chart that show cities with low rates…

      2. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        the source of the data is on the chart and you can go to their website.

        One of the things I found interesting was the wide variability of the killings on a city basis.

        For instance, Buffalo, Greensboro, Raleigh, Virginia Beach, Raleigh, all have low rates then compare them to cities with high rates.

        So we know from this data that there are places where police killings (I don’t know a less reactive word, perhaps others do) – are truly rare and not a huge issue.

        No, you do not get this from those that are marching… because their focus is on the places where it is a problem.

        We have not seen truly objective information – on a city by city basis – at least I have not until I ran into this – which again – does show the good and the bad… it shows the cities that don’t have this problem.

    3. kls59 Avatar

      Why let facts steer the debate. If that were to happen everyone would be talking about the fact that ONLY 10 unarmed Blacks were killed by police in 2019 – compared to 20 Whites. This fact is corroborated by the FBI Crime Statistics and ….wait for it….. the Washington Post. In seven of the ten incidents the suspect was attacking the police officer.

      TEN

      Ten out of 10,000,000 arrests. Of those ten million there were 1,004 fatal shootings by police.

      Yet the media and race baiters and idiot leftist elites talk about a genocide, systemic hunting of Blacks by police.

      1. Steve Haner Avatar
        Steve Haner

        And 50 years ago the officers would have all been white. Not now, not even close. Look at the four faces from Minneapolis. And many of those shooting incidents involve black officers, and black officers have been killed in the past few days. You will see in the RTD a protester with the sign “ACAB” and now we know what that means.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          yeah, I’m kinda dense..you may have to spell it out.

          And yes, the thing is that over the years, the color of the Mayors, the police chiefs and the demographics of the police force – have changed…

          and yes… there are a lot less truly egregious killings that, in the past, happened also in rural areas ……….

          The thing I find interesting these days is whether or not white folks “believe” black folks when the black folks say they have been subject to wrong/unfair treatment at the hands of the police:

          I’ll leave this for further thought – 2016 poll

          https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/01/PSDT_01.11.17.police-06-13.png

          this poll is old by contemporary standards but I suspect it still reflects a significant number of folks who feel this way.

          you can find this chart and many related done by Pew (which I do consider objective) by just googling phrases like “pew research black interactions with police”

          1. MAdams Avatar

            A.C.A.B is an acronym for All Cops are B*stards and that they should die.

          2. Steve Haner Avatar
            Steve Haner

            Right, and they include in that the black retired police captain killed trying to stop looters at pawn shop, and a black Federal Protective Service officer killed in a different incident this week. All means all.

          3. matthurt92 Avatar
            matthurt92

            The more laws you have, the more likely this will happen.

        2. TooManyTaxes Avatar
          TooManyTaxes

          October 12, 1931, a black St. Paul police officer knocked on my grandmother’s front door to inform her that her husband had died in a dentist’s chair in downtown St. Paul. We always wondered how many black colleagues did he have.

    1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      The Chart is perfect example of the gross dishonestly and irresponsibility of the Mainstream Media in America.

      This charts posting here without explanation or comment also shows how malevolent lies can be instantly spread across the nation to fuel confusion, anger, hate and fear throughout America.

      Is this a Russian, Iranian, Chinese, or North Korea bot disseminating this garbage? Or is it CNBC?

      Please note how this chart is assembled, organized, and labelled to grossly mislead, indeed spread lies, aided by useful idiots.

      1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        Now too, University of Virginia’s President Jim Ryan yet again folds into a full abject grovel. Now he apologizes for his being white, and for much else besides, after having last Sunday gone off the script of dictated to him by his masters, wherein he failed to mention his white skin color and much else besides, in his grovel last Sunday.

        Jim Ryan now sounds like a man in captivity, a POW who is captive in his own just renovated mansion, a remodeling job that cost Virginia taxpayer’s $10,000,000+++, before its roof fell in and little Jimmy’s vastly privileged world fell apart.

        For more on the grovel see:
        https://news.virginia.edu/content/looking-backward-looking-forward

      2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        Steve says: “The use of the term “police killings” is a bit loaded.”

        Yes, using the term term “police killings” is a bit loaded.” As is ending the chart at the bottom with the label “Source Mapping Police Violence.”

        It amounts to bald faced lies if the majority, or vast majority, of these fatal encounters were unavoidable to protect peoples’ lives and safety, their property and livelihoods, their communities and civilization from lawlessness, chaos, looting and arson, murder, rape and mayhem.

    2. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      It would be even more interesting if the data was then compared to the underlying crime stats. Two cities with the same basic crime rates that had wildly different number of deadly police encounters would raise a red flag. But any such event should always raise concerns and demand close scrutiny and accountability. Glad to see the one Virginia city so low.

    3. kls59 Avatar

      Why let facts steer the debate. If that were to happen everyone would be talking about the fact that ONLY 10 unarmed Blacks were killed by police in 2019 – compared to 20 Whites. This fact is corroborated by the FBI Crime Statistics and ….wait for it….. the Washington Post. In seven of the ten incidents the suspect was attacking the police officer.

      TEN

      Ten out of 10,000,000 arrests. Of those ten million there were 1,004 fatal shootings by police.

      Yet the media and race baiters and idiot leftist elites talk about a genocide, systemic hunting of Blacks by police.

      1. Steve Haner Avatar
        Steve Haner

        And 50 years ago the officers would have all been white. Not now, not even close. Look at the four faces from Minneapolis. And many of those shooting incidents involve black officers, and black officers have been killed in the past few days. You will see in the RTD a protester with the sign “ACAB” and now we know what that means.

        1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
          TooManyTaxes

          October 12, 1931, a black St. Paul police officer knocked on my grandmother’s front door to inform her that her husband had died in a dentist’s chair in downtown St. Paul. We always wondered how many black colleagues did he have.

        2. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          yeah, I’m kinda dense..you may have to spell it out.

          And yes, the thing is that over the years, the color of the Mayors, the police chiefs and the demographics of the police force – have changed…

          and yes… there are a lot less truly egregious killings that, in the past, happened also in rural areas ……….

          The thing I find interesting these days is whether or not white folks “believe” black folks when the black folks say they have been subject to wrong/unfair treatment at the hands of the police:

          I’ll leave this for further thought – 2016 poll

          https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2017/01/PSDT_01.11.17.police-06-13.png

          this poll is old by contemporary standards but I suspect it still reflects a significant number of folks who feel this way.

          you can find this chart and many related done by Pew (which I do consider objective) by just googling phrases like “pew research black interactions with police”

  41. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    According to a Los Angeles Times article, Chauvin had 18 complaints against him. He also had two letters of reprimand but also “received a police department medal of valor in 2008, and was recognized again two years later.”

    Thao beat a handcuffed black man. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11734369/black-man-beaten-george-floyd-cop-hospitalized/

    And Frey won election in 2017 on a platform of reforming the police. He hammered the Democratic incumbent for her failures to clean out bad cops. “Mayor Betsy Hodges, faced fierce criticism in the wake of two fatal police shootings: the 2015 killing of Jamar Clark, a black man who was accused of assaulting his girlfriend, and the 2017 killing of Justine Ruszczyk, a white woman who’d called 911 to report hearing a scream.”

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      TMT – do you or I know for a given city – like Minneapolis or Fairfax what infractions will get an officer fired?

      So how many years was Chauvin on the force and did he get complaints over time or all lumped together more recently? What did he get his meritorious awards for?

      There is a LOT we do not know and it will come out at the trail – no doubt but the trial also will be a trial on why someone like Chauvin was still on the force – and there will likely be political consequences for whoever was in charge – but also what the rules are. If the leadership was following Police procedures – then they’re going to use that as a defense. This is what the demonstrations are about. A frustration with systemic problems that are not fixed and no one person can be identified as the one at fault – not even the leaders if they also following rules as they knew them.

      Reform is not easy. And it’s not satisfying because no one person can actually cause the reform to occur. It has to be multiple people all on the same wavelength… you can fire one police chief after another, vote in a new mayor after another – and we have – but that won’t get you reform.

  42. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    According to a Los Angeles Times article, Chauvin had 18 complaints against him. He also had two letters of reprimand but also “received a police department medal of valor in 2008, and was recognized again two years later.”

    Thao beat a handcuffed black man. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11734369/black-man-beaten-george-floyd-cop-hospitalized/

    And Frey won election in 2017 on a platform of reforming the police. He hammered the Democratic incumbent for her failures to clean out bad cops. “Mayor Betsy Hodges, faced fierce criticism in the wake of two fatal police shootings: the 2015 killing of Jamar Clark, a black man who was accused of assaulting his girlfriend, and the 2017 killing of Justine Ruszczyk, a white woman who’d called 911 to report hearing a scream.”

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      TMT – do you or I know for a given city – like Minneapolis or Fairfax what infractions will get an officer fired?

      So how many years was Chauvin on the force and did he get complaints over time or all lumped together more recently? What did he get his meritorious awards for?

      There is a LOT we do not know and it will come out at the trail – no doubt but the trial also will be a trial on why someone like Chauvin was still on the force – and there will likely be political consequences for whoever was in charge – but also what the rules are. If the leadership was following Police procedures – then they’re going to use that as a defense. This is what the demonstrations are about. A frustration with systemic problems that are not fixed and no one person can be identified as the one at fault – not even the leaders if they also following rules as they knew them.

      Reform is not easy. And it’s not satisfying because no one person can actually cause the reform to occur. It has to be multiple people all on the same wavelength… you can fire one police chief after another, vote in a new mayor after another – and we have – but that won’t get you reform.

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