National, State and Local COVID-19 Response Readiness

by James C. Sherlock

I spent a lot of time at the national level working in the National Incident Management System (NIMS) on policy, training, exercises, communications and after-action analysis of operations including Katrina. I offer this essay as a primer with a goal to bolster citizens’ faith in that system as it relates to COVID-19. The foundations are in place.

The first principle to remember is that the city or county manager, mayor or county executive does not work for the Governor, and the Governor does not work for the President, so emergency response is based on cooperation, coordination, and common frameworks for action, not formal command and control.

The National Response Plan (NRP) is an application of the National Incident Management System (NIMS). The NIMS provides the doctrine, concepts, principles, terminology, and organizational processes needed for incident management and coordination at all levels. The NRP, using the framework of the NIMS, provides the coordinating structure and mechanisms for national-level policy and operational direction for Federal support to State, local, and tribal incident managers, federal-to-federal support and for exercising direct federal authorities and responsibilities as appropriate under the law.

The National Pandemic Flu Strategy[1], the National Strategy Implementation Plan[2]  and the CMS Pandemic Influenza Operations and Response Plan[3] are active documents actively pursued.

There are thousands of professionals at the federal level for whom NRP, NIMS, and the pandemic flu documents are bibles. State and local government Departments of Health and providers, as you might expect, vary somewhat as to their own preparedness but share those frameworks.  First responders, in my experience, know the NIMS like the backs of their hands.

States are funded by both the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) every year to support emergency response training. Each of those agencies offers extensive online and in-residence training resources.

The Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) has published an Emergency Preparedness Requirements for Medicare and Medicaid Participating Providers and Suppliers regulation that outlines four core elements which are applicable to all 17 provider types, with a degree of variation based on inpatient versus outpatient, long-term care versus non long-term care.

Four Core Elements of Emergency Preparedness (for Medicare and Medicaid Providers)[4]:

Risk Assessment and Emergency Planning (Include but not limited to):

  • Hazards likely in geographic area
  • Care-related emergencies
  • Equipment and Power failures
  • Interruption in Communications, including cyber attacks
  • Loss of all/portion of facility
  • Loss of all/portion of supplies
  • Plan is to be reviewed and updated at least annually

Communication Plan

  • Complies with Federal and State laws
  • System to Contact Staff, including patients’ physicians, other necessary persons
  • Well-coordinated within the facility, across health care providers, and with state and local public health departments and emergency management agencies.

Policies and Procedures

  • Complies with Federal and State laws

Training and Testing

  • Complies with Federal and State laws
  • Maintain and at a minimum update annually

The inspections that certify Medicare providers check on the compliance of each with this regulation. The precautions that each facility and provider will make in the case of COVID-19 such as triage, isolation and treatment should be already in those plans and the associated training.

The private sector has a big role to play in keeping the providers, pharmacies and grocery stores supplied. My experience with the Katrina response was that they were superb in their roles without being asked.

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the pharmaceutical and testing industries seem both proactive and fully engaged.

We can be assured that the current Commonwealth emergency response plans and the associated exercise and training regimen related to pandemic response are compliant with federal standards. None of us is in a position to compare Virginia preparedness qualitatively to that of other states or to assess city and county health department preparedness within the state. We will find that out in the event that the plans are executed.

All in all, though, citizens can be assured that the framework for an organized and effective response to COVID-19 are in place at all levels of government. The CDC and NIH are the best in the world at what they do. How the rest of the system works in operation will depend on the skills of our federal, state and local leaders and their health departments.

The citizen’s role is to comply in his/her individual activities and readiness with the guidelines and directives of the CDC, NIH, the FDA, the VDH and our local health authorities.

James C. Sherlock, a Virginia Beach resident, is a retired Navy Captain and a certified enterprise architect. As a private citizen, he has researched and written about the business of healthcare in Virginia. 


[1]

https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/pdf/pandemic-influenza-strategy-2005.pdf

[2] https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/pdf/pandemic-influenza-implementation.pdf

[3] https://www.cms.gov/About-CMS/Agency-Information/H1N1/downloads/pandemicplan.pdf

[4] https://www.cms.gov/Medicare/Provider-Enrollment-and-Certification/SurveyCertEmergPrep/Core-EP-Rule-Elements


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Comments

50 responses to “National, State and Local COVID-19 Response Readiness”

  1. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Hmm… no comments from the anti-govt pro private-sector boo-birds… !!!!

    no cries of “corrupt” and “incompetent” Holy Moly!

    Surely there have been screwups. After all this IS the Govt!

    Oh wait – the MSM is in cahoots with these deep state “elites”…

    to say nothing of all these scientists – around the world – who, no doubt, are lying their butts off and trying to panic everyone….

    pretty soon, we’re gonna find proof that scientists have been skulking around in the wings waiting for the Stock Market to tank so they could “buy low”.. just as they had planned with their hoax pandemic!

    I’m totally shocked that Trump has not rid himself of these deep state traitors!

  2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Yes, exactly, one recalls who was howling and finger pointing after Katina hit New Orleans and later after big storms hit Puerto Rico, as opposed to who got big things done on the ground and in the winds, water, and fallen electric lines, taking risks, helping real people.

  3. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    James! Nobody wants to read rational discussions expressing confidence in the federal government’s competence and preparedness. Fear, panic and doom are much better copy! But thanks for this. The next 60-90 days may be challenging. I have to wonder, when I see the market collapse like that, why were people invested in the first place? Suddenly they think those blue chips or Vanguard funds are bad investments? The short-term thinking amazes me.

  4. sherlockj Avatar
    sherlockj

    Thank most of you for your comments. This article was my attempt to calm the waters a bit and provide background information that is studiedly apolitical. I edited it twice to make sure it was. Every newspaper in America should publish their own versions of this in order to set the stage for their articles and editorials. Truly, most people commenting of COVID-19, including editorial boards, are not as familiar with it as they should be. Nothing I wrote means that human frailty was is not a factor, certainly it was in the Katrina response, and it will be a factor in whatever is necessary with COVID-19. It just means that the foundations for success have been laid. They were built in a massive effort after 9/11 and are there today.

  5. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    I think the global sudden paralysis shows how serious the threat is and the failure if Trumpian non-economic policies. As many gave learned, don’t do business with this guy

  6. djrippert Avatar
    djrippert

    I don’t see a lot of competence from the Federal government. Where are the test kits for example? The test kits the CDC rolled out failed because they had a faulty reagent. Read on …

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/united-states-badly-bungled-coronavirus-testing-things-may-soon-improve

    It’s great to list procedures that should be followed but that doesn’t mean the contingency plans are any good. How did FEMA’s contingency plan for New Orleans work out? Or Puerto Rico. The sequence of failures that led up to 9/11 was well chronicled in Richard Clarke’s book aptly titled, “Your government failed you.” Today, Italy announced that the whole country would be quarantined from tomorrow through April 3. All public gatherings are banned, all sporting events are canceled, all schools and universities are closed. Italy has about 9,000 cases. The US has 600 (although testing has been pretty pathetic). Remembering that these outbreaks double every 6 days and using the 600 cases – 600, 1200, 2400, 4800, 9600. In 24 days we’ll be at Italy’s case level. Why would this disease spread in Italy and not the US? Isn’t the time to get ahead of this now?

    At the state level I don’t see anything happening in Virginia. Maryland has gotten CDC approval to run their own Coronavirus tests. I know this because Maryland’s governor went on TV and explained it. He also declared a state of emergency. Where’s our governor?

    At the local level I don’t see anything happening either. A regular commenter on this blog teaches in a large public schools system and has been clear that his system has no plan.

    The stock market fall is actually a triple whammy. Coronavirus, oil prices plunging and a liquidity shortfall. Of those three the liquidity issue should scare everybody. The Fed is back pumping but that didn’t stop 2008 – 2009.

    The best hope for us is that the Coronavirus will not spread as fast or as far as some fear rather than our government competently handling a broad outbreak.

  7. johnrandolphofroanoke Avatar
    johnrandolphofroanoke

    Perhaps the General Assembly can freeze the clock again so they can have an additional day to prepare. I know not what course others may take but in this crisis I intend to buy more toilet paper. I saw two ladies get in a shoving match at Wal Mart over the last toilet paper package. The fools did not notice a huge pallet of toilet paper in the next aisle waiting to be shelved.

  8. sherlockj Avatar
    sherlockj

    Read my column again. It represents an op-ed as public service announcement. I may agree or disagree with politicized comments, but that was not the point of the essay. Fire away, but use what I wrote as programmatic ground truth. The rest of the issues are about human frailties in its execution. Like the rest of life.

  9. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Hmm… no comments from the anti-govt pro private-sector boo-birds… !!!!

    no cries of “corrupt” and “incompetent” Holy Moly!

    Surely there have been screwups. After all this IS the Govt!

    Oh wait – the MSM is in cahoots with these deep state “elites”…

    to say nothing of all these scientists – around the world – who, no doubt, are lying their butts off and trying to panic everyone….

    pretty soon, we’re gonna find proof that scientists have been skulking around in the wings waiting for the Stock Market to tank so they could “buy low”.. just as they had planned with their hoax pandemic!

    I’m totally shocked that Trump has not rid himself of these deep state traitors!

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Not even very good trolling….but troll behavior, nonetheless.

      1. idiocracy Avatar
        idiocracy

        Posted at 4:20PM too, so take a wild guess what he was doing when he posted it.

  10. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    I just find it a bit ironic that folks who typically rail about the failings of govt then turn around and support it when times like this happen.

    I tend to believe in govt even though I know it does fail sometimes, many times… but at other times, it’s paramount in it’s role and we do depend on it.

    So I’m not going to rail against it one day and cling to it the next. It is what it is – the good, bad and ugly.. and times like now – the anti-government narrative subsides a bit – but it will come back, mark my words.

    What we are seeing right now, in some respects, is a little bit of recognition that govt CAN be harmed – by politics… of division and partisan politics.

    1. djrippert Avatar
      djrippert

      You’re right – it’s actually a bit over 35%. Ridiculous level of spending given that, according to the left …

      Our healthcare is a shambles.
      Income inequity is a major issue.
      The Earth is being destroyed.
      We have mass incarceration.
      Etc
      Etc

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_spending_as_percentage_of_GDP

      If spending 35% of GDP on government still leaves us with so many problems maybe we should just spend less on government.

  11. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Yes, exactly, one recalls who was howling and finger pointing after Katina hit New Orleans and later after big storms hit Puerto Rico, as opposed to who got big things done on the ground and in the winds, water, and fallen electric lines, taking risks, helping real people.

  12. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    James! Nobody wants to read rational discussions expressing confidence in the federal government’s competence and preparedness. Fear, panic and doom are much better copy! But thanks for this. The next 60-90 days may be challenging. I have to wonder, when I see the market collapse like that, why were people invested in the first place? Suddenly they think those blue chips or Vanguard funds are bad investments? The short-term thinking amazes me.

    1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
      Reed Fawell 3rd

      “Suddenly they think those blue chips or Vanguard funds are bad investments? The short-term thinking amazes me.”

      It amazes me too.

      I fear we’re all losing our minds. Must be aliens with high tech injecting microwaves through our mobile phones frying our brains via our ears. Either Aliens, or Russians, one or both maybe, gotta clear that up with Chuck S. or Nancy P..

      1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        This morning I read in the greatness depth and detail humanly possible the entire edition of today’s Washington Post, the place where Democracy dies in Darkness. It took me 3.65 minutes.

        Now, I know for sure. It’s not Aliens. It’s not the Russians. Ladies and Gentlemen, and all of us who are in between, and beyond the borders of Ladies and Gentlemen, IT’S DONALD TRUMP!

    2. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
      Dick Hall-Sizemore

      The stock market collapse is indicative of the typical short-term thinking that pervades the market, i.e. next quarter’s earnings may go down.

      Also, it makes me think that this market was way oversold, after all, it is a 11-year record bull market, and it only took one major crisis to pop the balloon. Sort of like the dot.com bust at the beginning of the 2000’s.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        and I agree – when everything depends on short term performance – “blips” become going to hell in a handbasket.

      2. djrippert Avatar
        djrippert

        I sold all my equities last week. Why? Because it took about 15 minutes and cost almost nothing to do. I was extremely confident that the markets would tumble although even I’m surprised by today’s massacre. Obviously, if you own $15,000 of IBM at $150 you have 100 shares. When you sell you have $15,000 of cash. IBM follows the crashing market down to $100. Now you buy back in with your 15,000 of cash. Now you have 150 shares. You could still be bullish on IBM, the American economy and the stock market. But you played the panic, sat out for a while and ended up with 50% more shares than you had. Sell the rumor, buy the fact. We’ve had the rumor for some time. We still don’t have the facts.

        Also, I think the term you are looking for is overbought not oversold. My understanding is that an oversold market would be resistant to going down.

  13. sherlockj Avatar
    sherlockj

    Thank most of you for your comments. This article was my attempt to calm the waters a bit and provide background information that is studiedly apolitical. I edited it twice to make sure it was. Every newspaper in America should publish their own versions of this in order to set the stage for their articles and editorials. Truly, most people commenting of COVID-19, including editorial boards, are not as familiar with it as they should be. Nothing I wrote means that human frailty was is not a factor, certainly it was in the Katrina response, and it will be a factor in whatever is necessary with COVID-19. It just means that the foundations for success have been laid. They were built in a massive effort after 9/11 and are there today.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      and my comment was to remind the anti-govt, anti-science voices that science and govt do indeed have important roles – even though they are both “corrupt” and “incompetent” at times.

      An attempt to show there is “balance” even when we say it’s not.

  14. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    I think the global sudden paralysis shows how serious the threat is and the failure if Trumpian non-economic policies. As many gave learned, don’t do business with this guy

  15. djrippert Avatar
    djrippert

    I don’t see a lot of competence from the Federal government. Where are the test kits for example? The test kits the CDC rolled out failed because they had a faulty reagent. Read on …

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/united-states-badly-bungled-coronavirus-testing-things-may-soon-improve

    It’s great to list procedures that should be followed but that doesn’t mean the contingency plans are any good. How did FEMA’s contingency plan for New Orleans work out? Or Puerto Rico. The sequence of failures that led up to 9/11 was well chronicled in Richard Clarke’s book aptly titled, “Your government failed you.” Today, Italy announced that the whole country would be quarantined from tomorrow through April 3. All public gatherings are banned, all sporting events are canceled, all schools and universities are closed. Italy has about 9,000 cases. The US has 600 (although testing has been pretty pathetic). Remembering that these outbreaks double every 6 days and using the 600 cases – 600, 1200, 2400, 4800, 9600. In 24 days we’ll be at Italy’s case level. Why would this disease spread in Italy and not the US? Isn’t the time to get ahead of this now?

    At the state level I don’t see anything happening in Virginia. Maryland has gotten CDC approval to run their own Coronavirus tests. I know this because Maryland’s governor went on TV and explained it. He also declared a state of emergency. Where’s our governor?

    At the local level I don’t see anything happening either. A regular commenter on this blog teaches in a large public schools system and has been clear that his system has no plan.

    The stock market fall is actually a triple whammy. Coronavirus, oil prices plunging and a liquidity shortfall. Of those three the liquidity issue should scare everybody. The Fed is back pumping but that didn’t stop 2008 – 2009.

    The best hope for us is that the Coronavirus will not spread as fast or as far as some fear rather than our government competently handling a broad outbreak.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      and I say again:

      ” and my comment was to remind the anti-govt, anti-science voices that science and govt do indeed have important roles – even though they are both “corrupt” and “incompetent” at times.”

      and I would add – even though we all see less than perfect performance from government on this issue – and we do – what is your answer?

      that the govt is corrupt and incompetent, and we should do what instead?

      I just get a little weary of that same song over and over, sometimes.

      and now is a time – when we all can reflect on what our expectations for govt really is … or not……….

      and yes Jim, This IS a contribution and NO, Steve this is NOT trolling!

      The role of govt in our lives is real – and important – and this is one of those times when we know it even if we spent a lot of our other time dissing it.

      1. djrippert Avatar
        djrippert

        ” … what is your answer?”

        I don’t spend 25% of America’s GDP. Your beloved government does. I don’t have to have “ideas”. Your beloved government needs to have ideas. As of 3 days ago there had been 1,895 people tested for Coronavirus in the US. South Korea has tested 196,000. And South Korea’s population is just under 1/7th the size of the US. If our government is so competent why does South Korea have plenty of test kits while we don’t?

        https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/03/how-many-americans-have-been-tested-coronavirus/607597/

        It’s not so much that “government” is incompetent. It’s that OUR government is incompetent. Too much money from special interests. Too many politicians for life.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          I don’t have a “beloved” govt any more than I have “beloved” relatives.

          they are what they are and it is what it is.

          but at the end of the day, no matter how nasty your view of govt, it IS indispensable.. unless you prefer a 3rd world version in which something like the coronavirus would be a joke.

          South Korea? they are a developed country with universal health care – everyone is covered AND with an responsible leader who actually cares about the health of ALL of their citizens. Got that?

          In spite of our leadership issues, it’s more than apparent that we do have quite a few competent folks in Govt that are working to respond to the threat and to overcome the lapses of leadership.

          You can continue to damn and diss govt – but what exactly is the point.

          Do you really have a good alternative?

          or is grousing about what you don’t like – just the thing to do?

          1. djrippert Avatar
            djrippert

            Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders want our government to be much, much bigger. I don’t. I don’t see our government as competent enough to be in control of more than they are already controlling. Biden is less of a socialist but he still wants bigger government. I don’t. I see 25% of GDP as being about as big as government should ever get.

      2. “My comment was to remind the anti-govt, anti-science voices that science and govt do indeed have important roles.”

        Thank you for reminding us that science and government does indeed have an important role in public health — as every contributor to this blog has acknowledged all along. You aren’t arguing with anyone but yourself.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          re: ” Thank you for reminding us that science and government does indeed have an important role in public health — as every contributor to this blog has acknowledged all along. You aren’t arguing with anyone but yourself.”

          Oh, it won’t be long before the gripes start… count on it.

    2. sherlockj Avatar
      sherlockj

      Don, editing oneself to remove opinion is a hard exercise. I think I may have pulled it off here, but see my opening sentence that ended “including Katrina”. As a result of that extensive effort in analysis of failed execution, I think I could (and have) filled 100 pages with relevant assessments. But this is a new event, and the people who are in charge will determine how well the plans are executed. That is subject to reporting, not this public service background essay. I only offer context here. I do not predict results.

      As indicated by a few of the comments here, not including yours, it is clear that in this case as in most that fools jump in where angels fear to tread.

      1. djrippert Avatar
        djrippert

        I respect your opinion. I just don’t have your faith in American government. As I’ve tried to explain to Larry – our government has grown and grown relative to the size of the country. It is now 25% of GDP. That’s enough. Some contributors like Dick will say that some tax increase is a good idea because it has a good payback. I’ll always argue that the payback only counts if the responsible entity can effectuate the desired change. Otherwise, it’s just throwing good money after bad. The “war” on poverty, the “war” on drugs, the war in Iraq, public school attainment – the reality is that government fails more often than it succeeds with new or expanded programs these days. Ok – maybe we don’t need bigger government.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          re: “the war on” is a silly way of viewing anything.

          it’s like saying a “war on crime” or a “war on highway congestion” or some such silly stuff.

          Jim wants the govt out of COPN… but a lot of medical care in this country, simply would not exist – without govt in the first place so be careful of what you wish for.

          Most everyone has got some aspect of govt they don’t believe should exist.

          The problem is, everyone has their own idea and mostly about parts of the govt they don’t benefit from, but they’d fight vociferously against dismantling the govt that benefits them… e.g. – no Obamacare but don’t touch my Medicare.

  16. johnrandolphofroanoke Avatar
    johnrandolphofroanoke

    Perhaps the General Assembly can freeze the clock again so they can have an additional day to prepare. I know not what course others may take but in this crisis I intend to buy more toilet paper. I saw two ladies get in a shoving match at Wal Mart over the last toilet paper package. The fools did not notice a huge pallet of toilet paper in the next aisle waiting to be shelved.

    1. idiocracy Avatar
      idiocracy

      Should you run out of toilet paper, many people have suggested that you can use leaves. I have another suggestion–the pages of your local newspaper.

  17. sherlockj Avatar
    sherlockj

    Read my column again. It represents an op-ed as public service announcement. I may agree or disagree with politicized comments, but that was not the point of the essay. Fire away, but use what I wrote as programmatic ground truth. The rest of the issues are about human frailties in its execution. Like the rest of life.

    1. djrippert Avatar
      djrippert

      I agree with your column. I get what you wrote. Plans are great but execution is what counts. I’m sure we have whole forests cut down, made into paper and developed into plans. But if the execution is consistently lacking – what is the point. In my youth I wanted to play safety in the NFL. I was a good high school football player but too slow to be a solid college safety and too small to be a solid college linebacker. In other words, I couldn’t execute on my plans. So, I accepted that and changed plans. Our government never accepts that it can’t execute on its plans. It just demands mo’ money, mo’ money, mo’ money.

  18. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    I just find it a bit ironic that folks who typically rail about the failings of govt then turn around and support it when times like this happen.

    I tend to believe in govt even though I know it does fail sometimes, many times… but at other times, it’s paramount in it’s role and we do depend on it.

    So I’m not going to rail against it one day and cling to it the next. It is what it is – the good, bad and ugly.. and times like now – the anti-government narrative subsides a bit – but it will come back, mark my words.

    What we are seeing right now, in some respects, is a little bit of recognition that govt CAN be harmed – by politics… of division and partisan politics.

    1. djrippert Avatar
      djrippert

      You’re right – it’s actually a bit over 35%. Ridiculous level of spending given that, according to the left …

      Our healthcare is a shambles.
      Income inequity is a major issue.
      The Earth is being destroyed.
      We have mass incarceration.
      Etc
      Etc

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_spending_as_percentage_of_GDP

      If spending 35% of GDP on government still leaves us with so many problems maybe we should just spend less on government.

  19. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    re: 25% of GDP for govt.

    interesting idea. Not sure if that number is based on anything other than some arbitrary number without much basis…or logic.

    I hear folks talk about what’s in the Constitution. Is the CDC and all this govt involved in the coronavirus “in” that Constitution?

    Should the govt have rescued the auto industry and banks in 2008?

    Do we need govt for disasters?

    Medicare?

    Social Security?

    FAA?

    NTSB?

    FCC?

    FERC?

    I dunno. I don’t know that I have a “number” per se – but I do acknowledge the not uncommon idea that Govt is already involved in “too much”.

    what’s interesting about this – is that very few of those who have made that argument in the past seem to be making it now.

    In fact, if anything, they’re saying the govt has not done “enough”!

    odd argument coming from the “less-govt” folks.

    1. djrippert Avatar
      djrippert

      You stick with the same fallacy. You say “no government”. Nobody on this blog has ever said that. What has been said is “how much government” and why is government so often ineffective? Before you tell me that the government should take more of my money please tell me why I should see the government as competent to spend more of my money. Rural broadband is a great example. It won’t change anything in rural Virginia. It’s just a feel good, virtue signaling, vote buying idea. Enough. The voracious appetite by government for ever more of our money needs to end. Government is insufficiently competent to justify additional taxing and spending.

      How are those coronavirus test kits going? Jeez.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        nope – “less govt”… get it correct!

        and again – if everyone actually agreed on the “less” it would be nirvana.

        but they do not.

        Like I said – they want their govt-subsidized employer-provided but they are opposed to Obamacare

        or they don’t think the govt should criminalize weed but okay to do cocaine or oxy..

        What I advocate is that the govt have consistent policies that apply more or less equitably to people – not inconsistent and arbitrary policies.

        That’s much more an important issue that how “big”… in my view.

        And when we get to an issue like coronavirus – I don’t hear ANY arguments about how “big” govt should be. Odd. Do we want govt
        to it ALL when it comes to something like this?
        Isn’t that sort of like the mother of all socialism?

        Oh, and we want govts around the world to work together on this – shades of the New World Order or Climate issues!

      2. idiocracy Avatar
        idiocracy

        Government is NOT ineffective. It is very effective at being a jobs program. If a government program can actually achieve it’s stated goal so much the better, but the real goal is to keep as many people employed as possible.

  20. sherlockj Avatar
    sherlockj

    Greg Gutfeld has coined the term “the prison of two ideas”. It is actually a very compelling observation. Some of the arguments we hear expressed, boiled down to their essence, are if you are for x you must be against y. Only the feeble minded think that way. It is not only ok but adult to be able to say one wishes for government to do only what government must, but that it needs to do it well. Intelligent people can and do disagree on the boundaries of “must”, but that’s ok. Disagree on the boundaries, but not the concept of limited government well executed.

  21. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Picking Mr. Gutfield, a FOX news celebrity, and former host of Redeye, as an role model of reasonable and moderate thought is interesting. Sorry to hear you think so highly of FOX!

    I always found Gutfield to be full of vinegar and hate one liners against those he thought were to the left of his views.

    https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZZ0ofYrkR7Q/ULQmPM0REMI/AAAAAAAAY0A/8skdDAOCuIU/s1600/gutfeld.jpg

    or this with kudos from Anne Coulter:

    https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51H9Iau4U1L._SL210_.jpg

    In other words, he’s not a guy I would use to bolster “the world is more than black and white viewpoints” views but to each their own as they say.

    I do, very much, “get” the idea of small but effective government. I just point out that using the word “small” with respect to govt at the same time we expect it to be almost monolithic when it comes to pandemics but tiny when it comes other things will and does vary according to individual viewpoints. As they say, your mileage may vary.

    In other words, an expectation of a govt that has significant control and impact over the economy – at certain times on some things but then shrinks to a minimal “stay out of the markets” at other times can be a real conundrum.

    For instance, it seems that many, (not all), are okay with a significant govt involvement in pandemics, in fact , all govts worldwide.

    Perhaps less agreement for govt involvement in health care though clearly, most developed countries are, in fact, significantly involved in health care and health insurance – even the USA though many in the USA say it should not. That’s hardly a “two-views” black/white proposition though when discussion gets to specifics – where it be about COPN or profits for Non-Profit hospitals, etc, et al.

    I just tend to be of the view that we do need Govt involved in health care – and I cite examples of when it clearly is expected to be so.

    And once again, I respect your viewpoint. I just have a different view than you.

    1. sherlockj Avatar
      sherlockj

      There is your prison of two ideas speaking again. “The observation came from Mr. Gutfeld. You don’t like what you read about Mr. Gutfeld. He is a libertarian. So every thought he ever had must be bad. He must be against government in healthcare response. So must everyone who listens to his ideas.” Or something. Of course we need government in pandemic response. Absolutely no one including Mr. Gutfeld disputes that. The counter argument is the very definition of a straw man.
      I read the NY Times and Washington Post every day. It is a tough slog, but I sometimes find things worth reading, such as some of the NYT pre-COVID 19 healthcare reporting. Give it a shot. Read the Wall Street Journal. Expand your horizons.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        No admirer of Mr. Gutfield. Seen quite a bit of him on Redeye and the Five and he’s condescending and mean-spirited in general so no I’d not be quoting him to impress others as to his “wisdom”.

        In terms of “read” and “expanding” – I read everything you cite and about a dozen others including WSJ and well know that the world is not black and white – it’s shades of grey and we make perfect the enemy of good way too much.

        Govt will never be perfect – whether it’s dealing with pandemics or health care of COPN or “profitable” non-profit hospitals, etc.

        Once more, I respect your views – but bad choice on Gufield to make your point! 🙂

      2. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        Many thought leaders in America today consider Greg Gutfeld among the top 25 most influential and insightful men alive in the world today. Consider this for example:

        https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-Lkry-SF01&hsimp=yhs-SF01&hspart=Lkry&p=greg+gutfeld+youtube#id=1&vid=9f89bb377751b168b11e1dc6814b5b68&action=click

  22. johnrandolphofroanoke Avatar
    johnrandolphofroanoke

    The discussion between Mr. DJ and Mr. Larry has been going on for about 250 years now. Hamilton v. Jefferson over and over again. I hope Jefferson wins!

    1. djrippert Avatar
      djrippert

      Where’s Aaron Burr when you need him?

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