In Defense of Solar Farms

Nick Freitas

by James A. Bacon

Two weeks ago Del. Nick Freitas submitted HB 2265 to repeal the Virginia Clean Economy Act on the grounds that it could jack up the electric bill of the average Virginia household by $800. “It is critical that the Commonwealth not add to the financial burdens of people trying to heat their homes by raising their rates as the VCEA clearly does,”  he said in a press release at the time.

I totally agree. The issue seems a bit academic today, as the bill did not make it out of committee. But the Virginia Clean Economy Act will take three decades to unfold, so the issue Freitas raised isn’t going away. I bring it up now because I think that Virginians who have problems with the Act need to get their story straight and work in unison. And there’s one important point where I differ with Freitas.

With the enactment of the VCEA, Freitas wrote in the press release, Virginia is experiencing extensive land leasing and acquisition by solar developers. More than 180 solar projects accounting for 140 million solar panels are in various stages of approval or construction. Full implementation of the ACT would consume 490 square miles of Virginia’s forests and farmland, an area twenty times the size of Manhattan.

“Our concern for the environment,” said Freitas, “should include the need to conserve our forests and farmland, while keeping energy costs down for our working families and seniors on fixed incomes.” His bill, implies the headline to his press release, suggests that repealing the VCEA would “conserve Virginia’s forests and farmlands from massive solar farm development.”

As long as appropriate measures are taken — especially ensuring the recycling of solar panels after their useful life — I don’t have a problem with solar farms. Landowners will not lease their land unless the payments they receive from solar developers exceed the expected income from farm and forestry uses. The average lease per acre ranges from $300 to $2,000 per acre, depending upon a variety of factors. Assuming 490 square miles actually are leased out, that represents potential payments of between $94 million to $630 million to rural landowners — without any expenditure of labor or capital on their part. That doesn’t include taxes paid to local governments, or jobs created to maintain the solar farms. As for viewsheds and minor nuisance issues, local boards can enact ordinances to mitigate whatever minor harm is done.

Solar development is a potential boon to rural Virginia. I would think that a legislator like Freitas who represents rural constituents would see solar energy as beneficial.

The problem with the Virginia Clean Energy Act is not solar, which now is the cheapest energy source available in Virginia. One of the big drivers behind the projected $800 increase in electric bills is the windfarm off the Virginia coast, which will add billions of dollars to Dominion Energy’s electric rate base and generate electricity at an extremely high cost per kilowatt hour. Another driver is is the mandated pace of achieving a zero carbon grid by 2050. Virginia’s electric grid can handle up to 30% or so of its electric power coming from variable renewable sources without significant risk of blackouts and brownouts. The risk increases as renewables’ share increases over that amount. So does cost, as someone has to maintain backup power sources that sit idle most of the time, to kick in when the winds fail and clouds block the sun. At some point, technological breakthroughs in battery storage may solve all those problems, but we’re not there yet, we don’t know when we will be, and we don’t know how much battery storage will cost.

I do agree with Freitas that electric power decision-making should be returned to the State Corporation Commission, which is equipped to make informed and rational decisions regarding the various risks and tradeoffs involved. The idea of the General Assembly micro-managing Virginia energy policy should terrify everyone.

Resistance to solar farms, I suspect, comes from two sources: a desire to preserve the traditional agricultural character of rural areas, and a deep skepticism by rural folk that a zero-carbon grid is needed to save the planet. Opposing solar farms is an easy way to flip the bird to insufferably arrogant urban elites. I get it. But solar farms are the wrong target. Let’s focus on the VCEA’s cost and threat to reliability.


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Comments

115 responses to “In Defense of Solar Farms”

  1. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Gee. Maybe you missed general motor’s announcement they will stop making gasoline cars in 15. Years. Jim you are always stuck in the past

    1. And the GM announcement is relevant to the point of my post…. how?

      1. Peter Galuszka Avatar
        Peter Galuszka

        Jim,
        Let me unpack this for you as gently as I can.
        GM, America’s largest maker of gasoline and diesel vehicles, will stop making them in 2035.

        What energy type will be used to replace them?

        Goats? Rabbits? Orca Whales?

        Not likely. Electricity is the most obvious answer. Some of it will come from “renewable” or “green” power sources like solar farms and wind turbines.

        Does this help?

        1. No, it doesn’t help at all. What you just said is all true. But it’s irrelevant to the conversation. How does it apply to my post in support of solar power?

          What you’re really objecting to is my word of caution about rushing to a 100% carbon-free grid on a 30-year schedule. But that has nothing to do with the increasing use of electric vehicles. If anything, it makes my point stronger. If all our cars are EVs, our society will be even more dependent upon the electric grid, and the need for reliability will be all the greater.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            Looking at your posts on solar over time.

            is that fair? Has your view changed? How?

        2. LarrytheG Avatar

          Give Jim time. He is coming around. He’s gone from hard core opponent to pretend fence sitting… 😉

    2. GM is saying if we mandate the cars they would like to make, and exclude competition from Japan hybrids then they can wipe up. Buy American rules help too. Enlightened self interest.

  2. LarrytheG Avatar

    more bogus “anti” stuff..

    solar and agriculture can be a win-win:

    ” Agrivoltaics or agrophotovoltaics (APV) is co-developing the same area of land for both solar photovoltaic power as well as for agriculture.[1] This technique was originally conceived by Adolf Goetzberger and Armin Zastrow in 1981.[2] The coexistence of solar panels and crops implies a sharing of light between these two types of production. Sheep and several crops can benefit from these systems, including fruit production”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrivoltaic

    why do some insist on lose-lose instead?

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Worth a look, certainly, but I suspect the dense, one use only approach is the most cost efficient. As a ratepayer I’d want full credit if the land was also drawing other income producing activity.

    2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      🌻 🌻☀️

    3. Several Thoughts:
      1 – Don’t believe everything you read at a Wikipedia site. The contents are frequently ‘tailored.’

      2 – The tomato planting shown in the image is one limited-length row. My neighbor plants a larger amount for his family’s year-round consumption, fresh and canned.

      Moreover, tomatoes do best with full sunlight, 6 – 8 hours per day. That does not occur for tomato plants UNDER the solar panels.

      3 – I have viewed industrial solar panel fields the States from North Carolina to Florida. Not one had agriculture between the rows of panels, The spaces between the rows would not accommodate a tractor for productive farming. An even if the spacing did I doubt the solar company would entrust the tractor owner to not damage the panels or their structural support.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        I don’t disagree with your comments but would suggest:

        1. – that not any/all crops will work for hours of sunlight. Some will
        do fine and others not – and not surprised that tomatoes don’t. But some crops actually need LESS sunlight and can’t really grow well where there is too many hours of it!

        2. – The way the panels are set up would likely be different than if there were no crops – except perhaps pasture for goats. One of the issues with the panels is that overtime – even with the panels, vegetation does grow and has to be managed.

        3. – The idea that valuable farmland is being lost to solar panels is bogus. There is a LOT of land that used to be farmed that is no longer. If you drive many major highways in rural areas, you’ll see thousands and thousands of acres that are no longer farmed and fallow. And that’s not even counting land that is actually not suitable for farming to start with.

        The real problem with solar is that is has to be relatively near a substation which does limit where and sometimes actual in-use farmland is used. Even then, there is no shortage of farmland… which is far more affected by residential development pushing out from urban areas… that “uses” 10 times as much land than solar will.

  3. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    I like Ivy Main’s idea of using goats to cut grass at the firms. Why doesn’t she post at BR?

    1. And that is relevant to the point of my post…. how?

    2. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      I suspect VA Mercury might object, and I also suspect they pay her. Why don’t I post on Virginia Mercury?? Fair’s fair, right?

      1. Peter Galuszka Avatar
        Peter Galuszka

        If they pay you please put in a good for me. Actually I was offered a temporary paying gig there but I had to turn it down because I was deep in another project for an out of town client

  4. idiocracy Avatar

    I think Jim ought to start putting a 10-question reading comprehension quiz at the end of the article, which must be passed with at least an 80% grade before the user is allowed to post comments.

    It would cut the bullshit like that seen above.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      here’s the BS – grade A, in fact:

      ” But solar farms are the wrong target. Let’s focus on the VCEA’s cost and threat to reliability.”

      there is no threat to reliability except in the minds of the opponents of solar…. along with other fables like bird killing and farmland destroying.

      Bacon and company are becoming dinosaurs… in the 21st century… like the horse and buggy folks said cars were evil and would fail…

      solar and wind are here to stay and the grids are being modernized (that they already need to be) to handle the variability – really not that different than what we have had to do to deal with surge demand periods.

      1. Larry, your comment makes absolutely no sense!

        You quote me as saying “solar farms are the wrong target.”

        In the very next breath, you say, “there is no threat to reliability except in the minds of the opponents of solar. … Bacon and company are becoming dinosaurs…”

        Do you see any contradiction in the two remarks?

        Go back and read the friggin’ headline, Larry: “In defense of solar.” Does that sound like I’m an opponent of solar?

        Do you absorb anything before the knee-jerk reflex kicks in?

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          I used your exact words: ” But solar farms are the wrong target. Let’s focus on the VCEA’s cost and threat to reliability.”

          and you have written over and over about your opposition to solar citing reliability as one of the arguments.

          no?

          Are you saying you’ve changed your mind about it’s reliability and it’s no longer an issue like you thought or are you maintaining that reliability is still a problem?

          By the way you cite an arbitrary number about how much solar. That number is based on a number of factors including the state of the grid , i.e. whether it is an old grid or a modernized one.

          I’d not be surprised to that number change as the grid if modernized.

    2. Peter Galuszka Avatar
      Peter Galuszka

      There is bull shit on this blog? Never!

  5. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    If solar power is the cheapest source, why aren’t electric bills going down? And where is the fricking MSM on hammering the GA and the Governor on including off-shore wind farms in the rate base? Both Parties have been whores for Dominion.

    And did you see John Kerry’s latest – telling oil and gas workers to get jobs making solar panels. Kerry has been hanging around Biden too much. The President’s stupidity is contagious despite they’re both wearing masks.

  6. djrippert Avatar

    Twenty times the size of Manhattan? Oh no! That’s terrible. What hyperbole.
    Or, 2/3rds the size of Loudoun County.

    Frietas is just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks.

    Jim Bacon makes a good point about reliability and cost. The idea that “the grid” is going to be magically reconfigured to allow intermittent energy generation to provide continuous power is pretty far fetched. Maybe battery technology will eventually permit cost effective storage. Maybe.

    The real question is what the world looks like in 2036. No fossil fuels used for electricity, all electric cars, 500 sq mi of solar panels, etc. Has global warming been defeated? Are we all fine? Or is this another case of endlessly moving the goal posts?

    My suspicion is that we will spend a lot of money, make a lot of crony capitalists very wealthy and won’t even make a dent in global warming.

    How is McAuliffe’s electric golf cart company going? Are those little carts saving the Earth yet?

  7. I don’t get why you guys all ignore the energy source that is cheapest, most reliable, and least damaging to the environment: nuclear. France basically runs on it (70%) very successfully.

    The French screw up lots of things, but they got this one right. Based on my experience at Peugeot, they have some terrific engineers who do magnificent things way ahead of their time. Then their politicians and unions screw it up.

    1. Peter Galuszka Avatar
      Peter Galuszka

      The French have also been very strong on nukes.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        I support Nukes but modern ones not the ones with 60 year old designs.

        Modern designs should be smaller, more modular, safe and able to be sited near urban areas but I don’t think they are particularily cheap.

        It’s just that the only ones I’ve really seen proposed are the old designs. Dominion quoted 13 billion for NA 3 – AND the dang thing would sit on an earthquake fault.

        I’ve already got one in my backyard. Your turn.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar

      talked to the Japanese lately?

      Nukes are wonderful. Ask who wants one near their house?

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        The Japanese were short-sighted enough to put a nuclear plant in a location near a fault zone that exposed it to tsunami.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          yes , because, in part, they were using a fatally-flawed design.

          I suport Nukes but I want to see more modern designs that are modular, can modulate in concert with solar, and will not melt down , just shut down. Safe enough you can build them near the cities and not have to find a rural place where the State would squash their opposition and site it there.

          If Nukes were safe and affordable, and modular, they would power many islands in the world instead of them burning fuel oil at about 40 cents a KWH.

          But Nukes are still a high wire act. No one wants one near where they live. They want it somewhere else.

  8. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Did he explain from where the $800 came? Or was that just the area code of the last phone call he made?

  9. Saw an article the other day, predicting by 2030 solar would be the cheapest form of energy. Key point I presume, not so today but with favorable conditions, and cheap imports from China, that might be true someday.

    1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
      TooManyTaxes

      And by re-upping the unenforceable Paris Accord, which largely excludes China and India, the Dork in Chief will enable China to manufacture all those solar panels while using fossil fuels.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        so we sorta know where you are on all of this when you say “dork in chief”?

        All the rest of the stuff you say is based on that? Should I put any stock at all in any of it?

      2. Reminds me of a Star Trek episode, we have evolved into a higher form of life in America, where the tiniest hint of pollution is fatal. Therefore we must live as elite brains under glass and have others do the work for us.

        The Gamesters of Triskelion was the episode.

  10. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    Gee. Maybe you missed general motor’s announcement they will stop making gasoline cars in 15. Years. Jim you are always stuck in the past

    1. And the GM announcement is relevant to the point of my post…. how?

      1. Peter Galuszka Avatar
        Peter Galuszka

        Jim,
        Let me unpack this for you as gently as I can.
        GM, America’s largest maker of gasoline and diesel vehicles, will stop making them in 2035.

        What energy type will be used to replace them?

        Goats? Rabbits? Orca Whales?

        Not likely. Electricity is the most obvious answer. Some of it will come from “renewable” or “green” power sources like solar farms and wind turbines.

        Does this help?

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          Give Jim time. He is coming around. He’s gone from hard core opponent to pretend fence sitting… 😉

        2. No, it doesn’t help at all. What you just said is all true. But it’s irrelevant to the conversation. How does it apply to my post in support of solar power?

          What you’re really objecting to is my word of caution about rushing to a 100% carbon-free grid on a 30-year schedule. But that has nothing to do with the increasing use of electric vehicles. If anything, it makes my point stronger. If all our cars are EVs, our society will be even more dependent upon the electric grid, and the need for reliability will be all the greater.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            Looking at your posts on solar over time.

            is that fair? Has your view changed? How?

    2. GM is saying if we mandate the cars they would like to make, and exclude competition from Japan hybrids then they can wipe up. Buy American rules help too. Enlightened self interest.

  11. LarrytheG Avatar

    more bogus “anti” stuff..

    solar and agriculture can be a win-win:

    ” Agrivoltaics or agrophotovoltaics (APV) is co-developing the same area of land for both solar photovoltaic power as well as for agriculture.[1] This technique was originally conceived by Adolf Goetzberger and Armin Zastrow in 1981.[2] The coexistence of solar panels and crops implies a sharing of light between these two types of production. Sheep and several crops can benefit from these systems, including fruit production”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrivoltaic

    why do some insist on lose-lose instead?

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Worth a look, certainly, but I suspect the dense, one use only approach is the most cost efficient. As a ratepayer I’d want full credit if the land was also drawing other income producing activity.

    2. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      🌻 🌻☀️

    3. Several Thoughts:
      1 – Don’t believe everything you read at a Wikipedia site. The contents are frequently ‘tailored.’

      2 – The tomato planting shown in the image is one limited-length row. My neighbor plants a larger amount for his family’s year-round consumption, fresh and canned.

      Moreover, tomatoes do best with full sunlight, 6 – 8 hours per day. That does not occur for tomato plants UNDER the solar panels.

      3 – I have viewed industrial solar panel fields the States from North Carolina to Florida. Not one had agriculture between the rows of panels, The spaces between the rows would not accommodate a tractor for productive farming. An even if the spacing did I doubt the solar company would entrust the tractor owner to not damage the panels or their structural support.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        I don’t disagree with your comments but would suggest:

        1. – that not any/all crops will work for hours of sunlight. Some will
        do fine and others not – and not surprised that tomatoes don’t. But some crops actually need LESS sunlight and can’t really grow well where there is too many hours of it!

        2. – The way the panels are set up would likely be different than if there were no crops – except perhaps pasture for goats. One of the issues with the panels is that overtime – even with the panels, vegetation does grow and has to be managed.

        3. – The idea that valuable farmland is being lost to solar panels is bogus. There is a LOT of land that used to be farmed that is no longer. If you drive many major highways in rural areas, you’ll see thousands and thousands of acres that are no longer farmed and fallow. And that’s not even counting land that is actually not suitable for farming to start with.

        The real problem with solar is that is has to be relatively near a substation which does limit where and sometimes actual in-use farmland is used. Even then, there is no shortage of farmland… which is far more affected by residential development pushing out from urban areas… that “uses” 10 times as much land than solar will.

  12. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    I like Ivy Main’s idea of using goats to cut grass at the firms. Why doesn’t she post at BR?

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      I suspect VA Mercury might object, and I also suspect they pay her. Why don’t I post on Virginia Mercury?? Fair’s fair, right?

      1. Peter Galuszka Avatar
        Peter Galuszka

        If they pay you please put in a good for me. Actually I was offered a temporary paying gig there but I had to turn it down because I was deep in another project for an out of town client

  13. idiocracy Avatar

    I think Jim ought to start putting a 10-question reading comprehension quiz at the end of the article, which must be passed with at least an 80% grade before the user is allowed to post comments.

    It would cut the bullshit like that seen above.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      here’s the BS – grade A, in fact:

      ” But solar farms are the wrong target. Let’s focus on the VCEA’s cost and threat to reliability.”

      there is no threat to reliability except in the minds of the opponents of solar…. along with other fables like bird killing and farmland destroying.

      Bacon and company are becoming dinosaurs… in the 21st century… like the horse and buggy folks said cars were evil and would fail…

      solar and wind are here to stay and the grids are being modernized (that they already need to be) to handle the variability – really not that different than what we have had to do to deal with surge demand periods.

      1. Larry, your comment makes absolutely no sense!

        You quote me as saying “solar farms are the wrong target.”

        In the very next breath, you say, “there is no threat to reliability except in the minds of the opponents of solar. … Bacon and company are becoming dinosaurs…”

        Do you see any contradiction in the two remarks?

        Go back and read the friggin’ headline, Larry: “In defense of solar.” Does that sound like I’m an opponent of solar?

        Do you absorb anything before the knee-jerk reflex kicks in?

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          I used your exact words: ” But solar farms are the wrong target. Let’s focus on the VCEA’s cost and threat to reliability.”

          and you have written over and over about your opposition to solar citing reliability as one of the arguments.

          no?

          Are you saying you’ve changed your mind about it’s reliability and it’s no longer an issue like you thought or are you maintaining that reliability is still a problem?

          By the way you cite an arbitrary number about how much solar. That number is based on a number of factors including the state of the grid , i.e. whether it is an old grid or a modernized one.

          I’d not be surprised to that number change as the grid if modernized.

    2. Peter Galuszka Avatar
      Peter Galuszka

      There is bull shit on this blog? Never!

  14. TooManyTaxes Avatar
    TooManyTaxes

    If solar power is the cheapest source, why aren’t electric bills going down? And where is the fricking MSM on hammering the GA and the Governor on including off-shore wind farms in the rate base? Both Parties have been whores for Dominion.

    And did you see John Kerry’s latest – telling oil and gas workers to get jobs making solar panels. Kerry has been hanging around Biden too much. The President’s stupidity is contagious despite they’re both wearing masks.

  15. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    Put the solar farms on the roofs of the suburbs and warehouse/retails space. Get the juice closer to the where it is needed. Do not destroy the unique landscapes of rural Virginia.
    https://www.alternativeenergyhq.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Rooftop-Solar-Farms_Header-660×330.jpg

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      But, but, but, the utility makes the most money with the dense, concentrated approach! The real problem is letting, demanding even, that all this be utility owned and developed. In bills actually written by the utility itself.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        no necessarily and especially so with solar. You actually want it DISTRIBUTED for both balancing on grid and redundancy.

        In an urban area, as James says.. there is a crap-load of roofs and parking lots available – ALSO.

        There is no question – solar is just a fraction of the energy density of fossil fuels and so it will have to be scattered far and wide but to say it will eat up valuable farm-land is just the same-old-same-old boogeyman blather from the usual “anti” suspects.

        1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead V

          100,000 square feet of warehouse roofing on a 36 acre lot in Petersburg. The National Warehouse has been vacant for years. Miles and miles of dead warehouse space in this part of Virginia. Green jobs in a city that could use some help.
          https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/756-S-West-St-Petersburg-VA/14568273/

          1. idiocracy Avatar

            What’s the history on that? For a warehouse that big, it has no railroad siding to it. It also doesn’t have very much parking. Looks like trying to maneuver a tractor-trailer around that site would be tough.. Seems pretty obvious why it’s been empty so long.

        2. TooManyTaxes Avatar
          TooManyTaxes

          The problems with residential roofs are: 1) only south- and/or west-facing roofs can generate sufficient solar energy for reasonable payback; 2) tenants cannot install solar to their roofs; 3) lots of older people won’t live in their house long enough for the payback to start; 4) people who move a lot, say military, won’t live in their house long enough for a payback; but 5) every residential customer must pay higher rates. Therefore, the Democrats in the GA created a plan where the government picks winners and losers. That’s bad legislation.

          The purpose was intended to pr0vide an economic incentive for residential customers to invest in solar to create a a greater source pool of renewable energy and to avoid a much higher electric bill. But, the authors were too clever by half. An economic incentive that requires a change of behavior is good only when people can actually change their behavior. For those who can’t, the Democrats and radical enviros are simply reducing their disposable income and quality of life.

          Then, let’s look at renters. If there is a smaller percentage of blacks and Hispanics owning homes, a larger percentage of blacks and Hispanics would be hurt by this law than would white people. How do the Social Justice Warriors address that one?

          And let’s toss highway safety to the sidelines. Who cares if a driver enters the median and gets killed when the car/truck hits a big solar installation. Greta and Slow Joe think they should take a bus or use an electric truck that gets about 50 per charge.

          It’s a lot more fun with The Donald gone. He sucked a lot of energy out of the populace. And so far, the Democrats have been emoting, rather than thinking. Put those Union Workers on the unemployment line and then tell them they can move and make solar panels.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            All true but does not mean other ways to do solar are not viable.

            You seem to think that if you cannot use solar that perhaps others should not either because it would not be “fair”?

            I dunno… is that what you are saying?

          2. TooManyTaxes Avatar
            TooManyTaxes

            Larry, what I am saying is that the Democrats passed a law that raises electric rates for residential consumers in an attempt to push them to install residential solar. It makes sense only if everybody has a reasonable ability to do that. Some people can do so. Others simply cannot. So the Party that cares about the lower and middle economic classes has just screwed hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Virginians.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar

            re: ” Larry, what I am saying is that the Democrats passed a law that raises electric rates for residential consumers in an attempt to push them to install residential solar.”

            when did that happen?

    2. Maybe Dominion-written law affects the economics of rooftop solar, as Steve suggests. I’ll defer to Steve on that point. But as a general rule the economics of solar installation vastly favor solar farms over rooftop. The installation of large solar farms is a mass-production process. Putting solar panels on rooftops, with all their structural integrity issues that must be addressed, is very site-specific, more like an artisan-production process.

      If you want solar to comprise a significant percentage of electric output, most of it will have to be in the form of solar farms.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Jim – that’s old thinking.

        Solar can be put on awnings over parking lots, along guardrails of roads, in the middle of cloverleaf interchanges, along many road right-of-ways and medians that actually cost money to mow.

        Think about a highway like I-96 with a 200 foot media for hundreds of miles… think about each interchange that has landlocked parcels inside of it… think about railroad and pipeline rights-of-ways , etc.

        1. wonderbread Avatar
          wonderbread

          Old thinking? A solar awning is also a boutique application and wildly expensive at scale. Like…hardware costs are similar, but the amount of labor required to design unique solutions, get them permitted, installed, and wired up is waaaay more expensive than doing so en masse for an industrial facility.

          Possibly still cost effective, and definitely more resilient, but much more expensive. Reliability is an interesting metric…it’s probably easier to manage grid voltage with a few big providers to scale up and down rather than juggling a whole bunch of random solar panels that you can’t throttle. More power to move though.

        2. idiocracy Avatar

          “along many road right-of-ways and medians that actually cost money to mow.”

          Putting solar there may be a safety hazard and not allowed by current road construction standards. The median and right of way is generally kept free of obstructions in case a vehicle goes off the road. The obstructions that must be there, like signs, are designed to break-away if struck by a vehicle. (That’s why, if you’ve noticed, for signs VDOT no longer uses their standard 4×4 wood post, but a metal one with a breakaway bracket at the bottom)

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            Indeed and true but that’s way different than saying there are not sites at all.

            It all depends on whether you think there can be SOME sites than can work or if your attitude is that none of it will work because solar is not viable at all.

            all depends on your attitude.

  16. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead V

    Put the solar farms on the roofs of the suburbs and warehouse/retails space. Get the juice closer to the where it is needed. Do not destroy the unique landscapes of rural Virginia.
    https://www.alternativeenergyhq.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Rooftop-Solar-Farms_Header-660×330.jpg

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      But, but, but, the utility makes the most money with the dense, concentrated approach! The real problem is letting, demanding even, that all this be utility owned and developed. In bills actually written by the utility itself.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        no necessarily and especially so with solar. You actually want it DISTRIBUTED for both balancing on grid and redundancy.

        In an urban area, as James says.. there is a crap-load of roofs and parking lots available – ALSO.

        There is no question – solar is just a fraction of the energy density of fossil fuels and so it will have to be scattered far and wide but to say it will eat up valuable farm-land is just the same-old-same-old boogeyman blather from the usual “anti” suspects.

        1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
          James Wyatt Whitehead V

          100,000 square feet of warehouse roofing on a 36 acre lot in Petersburg. The National Warehouse has been vacant for years. Miles and miles of dead warehouse space in this part of Virginia. Green jobs in a city that could use some help.
          https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/756-S-West-St-Petersburg-VA/14568273/

          1. idiocracy Avatar

            What’s the history on that? For a warehouse that big, it has no railroad siding to it. It also doesn’t have very much parking. Looks like trying to maneuver a tractor-trailer around that site would be tough.. Seems pretty obvious why it’s been empty so long.

        2. TooManyTaxes Avatar
          TooManyTaxes

          The problems with residential roofs are: 1) only south- and/or west-facing roofs can generate sufficient solar energy for reasonable payback; 2) tenants cannot install solar to their roofs; 3) lots of older people won’t live in their house long enough for the payback to start; 4) people who move a lot, say military, won’t live in their house long enough for a payback; but 5) every residential customer must pay higher rates. Therefore, the Democrats in the GA created a plan where the government picks winners and losers. That’s bad legislation.

          The purpose was intended to pr0vide an economic incentive for residential customers to invest in solar to create a a greater source pool of renewable energy and to avoid a much higher electric bill. But, the authors were too clever by half. An economic incentive that requires a change of behavior is good only when people can actually change their behavior. For those who can’t, the Democrats and radical enviros are simply reducing their disposable income and quality of life.

          Then, let’s look at renters. If there is a smaller percentage of blacks and Hispanics owning homes, a larger percentage of blacks and Hispanics would be hurt by this law than would white people. How do the Social Justice Warriors address that one?

          And let’s toss highway safety to the sidelines. Who cares if a driver enters the median and gets killed when the car/truck hits a big solar installation. Greta and Slow Joe think they should take a bus or use an electric truck that gets about 50 per charge.

          It’s a lot more fun with The Donald gone. He sucked a lot of energy out of the populace. And so far, the Democrats have been emoting, rather than thinking. Put those Union Workers on the unemployment line and then tell them they can move and make solar panels.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            All true but does not mean other ways to do solar are not viable.

            You seem to think that if you cannot use solar that perhaps others should not either because it would not be “fair”?

            I dunno… is that what you are saying?

          2. TooManyTaxes Avatar
            TooManyTaxes

            Larry, what I am saying is that the Democrats passed a law that raises electric rates for residential consumers in an attempt to push them to install residential solar. It makes sense only if everybody has a reasonable ability to do that. Some people can do so. Others simply cannot. So the Party that cares about the lower and middle economic classes has just screwed hundreds and hundreds of thousands of Virginians.

          3. LarrytheG Avatar

            re: ” Larry, what I am saying is that the Democrats passed a law that raises electric rates for residential consumers in an attempt to push them to install residential solar.”

            when did that happen?

    2. Maybe Dominion-written law affects the economics of rooftop solar, as Steve suggests. I’ll defer to Steve on that point. But as a general rule the economics of solar installation vastly favor solar farms over rooftop. The installation of large solar farms is a mass-production process. Putting solar panels on rooftops, with all their structural integrity issues that must be addressed, is very site-specific, more like an artisan-production process.

      If you want solar to comprise a significant percentage of electric output, most of it will have to be in the form of solar farms.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        Jim – that’s old thinking.

        Solar can be put on awnings over parking lots, along guardrails of roads, in the middle of cloverleaf interchanges, along many road right-of-ways and medians that actually cost money to mow.

        Think about a highway like I-96 with a 200 foot media for hundreds of miles… think about each interchange that has landlocked parcels inside of it… think about railroad and pipeline rights-of-ways , etc.

        1. wonderbread Avatar
          wonderbread

          Old thinking? A solar awning is also a boutique application and wildly expensive at scale. Like…hardware costs are similar, but the amount of labor required to design unique solutions, get them permitted, installed, and wired up is waaaay more expensive than doing so en masse for an industrial facility.

          Possibly still cost effective, and definitely more resilient, but much more expensive. Reliability is an interesting metric…it’s probably easier to manage grid voltage with a few big providers to scale up and down rather than juggling a whole bunch of random solar panels that you can’t throttle. More power to move though.

        2. idiocracy Avatar

          “along many road right-of-ways and medians that actually cost money to mow.”

          Putting solar there may be a safety hazard and not allowed by current road construction standards. The median and right of way is generally kept free of obstructions in case a vehicle goes off the road. The obstructions that must be there, like signs, are designed to break-away if struck by a vehicle. (That’s why, if you’ve noticed, for signs VDOT no longer uses their standard 4×4 wood post, but a metal one with a breakaway bracket at the bottom)

          1. LarrytheG Avatar

            Indeed and true but that’s way different than saying there are not sites at all.

            It all depends on whether you think there can be SOME sites than can work or if your attitude is that none of it will work because solar is not viable at all.

            all depends on your attitude.

  17. djrippert Avatar

    Twenty times the size of Manhattan? Oh no! That’s terrible. What hyperbole.
    Or, 2/3rds the size of Loudoun County.

    Frietas is just throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks.

    Jim Bacon makes a good point about reliability and cost. The idea that “the grid” is going to be magically reconfigured to allow intermittent energy generation to provide continuous power is pretty far fetched. Maybe battery technology will eventually permit cost effective storage. Maybe.

    The real question is what the world looks like in 2036. No fossil fuels used for electricity, all electric cars, 500 sq mi of solar panels, etc. Has global warming been defeated? Are we all fine? Or is this another case of endlessly moving the goal posts?

    My suspicion is that we will spend a lot of money, make a lot of crony capitalists very wealthy and won’t even make a dent in global warming.

    How is McAuliffe’s electric golf cart company going? Are those little carts saving the Earth yet?

  18. I don’t get why you guys all ignore the energy source that is cheapest, most reliable, and least damaging to the environment: nuclear. France basically runs on it (70%) very successfully.

    The French screw up lots of things, but they got this one right. Based on my experience at Peugeot, they have some terrific engineers who do magnificent things way ahead of their time. Then their politicians and unions screw it up.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      talked to the Japanese lately?

      Nukes are wonderful. Ask who wants one near their house?

      1. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
        Dick Hall-Sizemore

        The Japanese were short-sighted enough to put a nuclear plant in a location near a fault zone that exposed it to tsunami.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar

          yes , because, in part, they were using a fatally-flawed design.

          I suport Nukes but I want to see more modern designs that are modular, can modulate in concert with solar, and will not melt down , just shut down. Safe enough you can build them near the cities and not have to find a rural place where the State would squash their opposition and site it there.

          If Nukes were safe and affordable, and modular, they would power many islands in the world instead of them burning fuel oil at about 40 cents a KWH.

          But Nukes are still a high wire act. No one wants one near where they live. They want it somewhere else.

    2. Peter Galuszka Avatar
      Peter Galuszka

      The French have also been very strong on nukes.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        I support Nukes but modern ones not the ones with 60 year old designs.

        Modern designs should be smaller, more modular, safe and able to be sited near urban areas but I don’t think they are particularily cheap.

        It’s just that the only ones I’ve really seen proposed are the old designs. Dominion quoted 13 billion for NA 3 – AND the dang thing would sit on an earthquake fault.

        I’ve already got one in my backyard. Your turn.

  19. Nancy_Naive Avatar
    Nancy_Naive

    Did he explain from where the $800 came? Or was that just the area code of the last phone call he made?

  20. Saw an article the other day, predicting by 2030 solar would be the cheapest form of energy. Key point I presume, not so today but with favorable conditions, and cheap imports from China, that might be true someday.

    1. TooManyTaxes Avatar
      TooManyTaxes

      And by re-upping the unenforceable Paris Accord, which largely excludes China and India, the Dork in Chief will enable China to manufacture all those solar panels while using fossil fuels.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        so we sorta know where you are on all of this when you say “dork in chief”?

        All the rest of the stuff you say is based on that? Should I put any stock at all in any of it?

      2. Reminds me of a Star Trek episode, we have evolved into a higher form of life in America, where the tiniest hint of pollution is fatal. Therefore we must live as elite brains under glass and have others do the work for us.

        The Gamesters of Triskelion was the episode.

  21. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    If BR is turning into “Bacon’s Biden Bash” I’m going to decline to participate. It was a considered a “cardinal rule” to not discuss Trump because it is a “Virginia” blog. What bull shit! As the sportscaster says in the film “Bull Durham” — “It’s time to tell it like it is folks.”

    1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead V

      Mr. Peter here is a joke that plays both ways.

      What is the difference between a Joe Biden speech and a Donald Trump speech?

      When Biden is speaking you wonder if he’s had a stroke.

      When Trump is speaking you wonder if you’ve had a stroke.

    2. TooManyTaxes Avatar
      TooManyTaxes

      Peter, you spent the last four years trashing Trump. But now everyone is supposed to be nice and polite to Joe Biden.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        so how many times has Biden gone on Twitter to bully and insult others? Biden-man-bad?

  22. Peter Galuszka Avatar
    Peter Galuszka

    If BR is turning into “Bacon’s Biden Bash” I’m going to decline to participate. It was a considered a “cardinal rule” to not discuss Trump because it is a “Virginia” blog. What bull shit! As the sportscaster says in the film “Bull Durham” — “It’s time to tell it like it is folks.”

    1. James Wyatt Whitehead V Avatar
      James Wyatt Whitehead V

      Mr. Peter here is a joke that plays both ways.

      What is the difference between a Joe Biden speech and a Donald Trump speech?

      When Biden is speaking you wonder if he’s had a stroke.

      When Trump is speaking you wonder if you’ve had a stroke.

    2. TooManyTaxes Avatar
      TooManyTaxes

      Peter, you spent the last four years trashing Trump. But now everyone is supposed to be nice and polite to Joe Biden.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar

        so how many times has Biden gone on Twitter to bully and insult others? Biden-man-bad?

  23. when they offer their roi projections:
    10 yr inverter life?
    14 yr battery life
    the grid has to handle peak power ,but solar is average 20%
    in the case of local munis they tout “free land”
    ultimately utilities go along as rate payers absorb all cost

    I live where out of 2200 homes 4 have solar- they can all easily afford panels
    so are they evil or ignorant?

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Do you have solar? Then I’ll answer.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar

      re: ” I live where out of 2200 homes 4 have solar- they can all easily afford panels
      so are they evil or ignorant?”

      no… where I live , it’s a similar percentage and some of the existing ones are 30 years old and older.

      I would posit that most folks who do solar are really not looking to be “off-grid” nor are they unrealistic about the ability of solar to power the entire house or even pay for itself really.

      But a lot of folks have been concerned about pollution long before climate change. It’s easy for some folks to forget (or too young to remember) the air quality problems, acid rain, smog, destroyed mountaintops, etc that was a direct result of coal plants.

      Long before Obama, (and fracking, natural gas), they were trying to deal with the smokestacks that belched black smoke.

      A lot of folks, both Conservative and Liberal have seen solar and wind as a lower-polluting, “conservative” approach to energy and money for longer than Climate change as been an issue.

      Educated folks who support wind/solar also KNOW that neither will replace fossil fuels and nukes in their lifetimes.

      Some day, maybe, we figure out “storage” and perhaps how to use solar to make hydrogen as a cost-effective fuel and perhaps some of us will be around when those breakthroughs happen but even then we will likely need gas to fill in the gaps when demand is high and clouds are also.

      For some people wind/solar , less trash and more recycling, conservation of resources, etc is a “good” value to hold and practice.

      That mother earth is all we have and we do need to maintain it, not use it up.

    3. idiocracy Avatar

      An inverter should last longer than 10 years. But probably won’t if it’s built with the garbage parts so common these days.

  24. when they offer their roi projections:
    10 yr inverter life?
    14 yr battery life
    the grid has to handle peak power ,but solar is average 20%
    in the case of local munis they tout “free land”
    ultimately utilities go along as rate payers absorb all cost

    I live where out of 2200 homes 4 have solar- they can all easily afford panels
    so are they evil or ignorant?

    1. Nancy_Naive Avatar
      Nancy_Naive

      Do you have solar? Then I’ll answer.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar

      re: ” I live where out of 2200 homes 4 have solar- they can all easily afford panels
      so are they evil or ignorant?”

      no… where I live , it’s a similar percentage and some of the existing ones are 30 years old and older.

      I would posit that most folks who do solar are really not looking to be “off-grid” nor are they unrealistic about the ability of solar to power the entire house or even pay for itself really.

      But a lot of folks have been concerned about pollution long before climate change. It’s easy for some folks to forget (or too young to remember) the air quality problems, acid rain, smog, destroyed mountaintops, etc that was a direct result of coal plants.

      Long before Obama, (and fracking, natural gas), they were trying to deal with the smokestacks that belched black smoke.

      A lot of folks, both Conservative and Liberal have seen solar and wind as a lower-polluting, “conservative” approach to energy and money for longer than Climate change as been an issue.

      Educated folks who support wind/solar also KNOW that neither will replace fossil fuels and nukes in their lifetimes.

      Some day, maybe, we figure out “storage” and perhaps how to use solar to make hydrogen as a cost-effective fuel and perhaps some of us will be around when those breakthroughs happen but even then we will likely need gas to fill in the gaps when demand is high and clouds are also.

      For some people wind/solar , less trash and more recycling, conservation of resources, etc is a “good” value to hold and practice.

      That mother earth is all we have and we do need to maintain it, not use it up.

    3. idiocracy Avatar

      An inverter should last longer than 10 years. But probably won’t if it’s built with the garbage parts so common these days.

  25. There is much in the topic of electricity from solar panel fields that is overlooked. Solar panels are approximately 20 % effective. That is to say a 100-watt field is required to produce over a period of a year the equivalence of a full-time 20-watts source such as from a natural gas, coal, etc plant. (NOTE BENE’ – I am not arguing for one or the other.)

    So, if 100 watts of power is needed 24/7 then at a minimum a 500-watt solar field is required. To furthermore aggravate the circumstances this assumes the incident solar energy at full power is sufficient. It may be in Florida but not in Virginia. And it is a seasonal as well as a latitude matter.

    Regarding batteries it depends on the duration the battery can provide adequate output, i.e. energy storage. So while it might seem that one needs 400-watt power battery storage based on ‘power’ the battery requirement is based on ‘energy.’ Given the status of current battery technology that is to say the least a LARGE array of physical batteries.

    (Do understand – these thoughts are not an argument for or against. It is a matter of engineering/science reality that suggests we have a very long way to go and 2050 is a short time to get there. So Freitas’s position may be more valid than perceived.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      the difference between “nameplate” and net is a true issue but it is quantified in the levelized cost calculations.

      But also need to do apples-to-apples. For instance gas, coal, nuke – you have to figure the costs to extract (develop nuke fuel) and transport and remediation of removed mountaintops and stored spent nuke fuel.

      On storage, whenever it is actually practical, the cost needs to be added to the solar cost to get true cost.

      I see Freitas’s position as fairly standard Conservative “anti” renewable/pro fossil fuel/nuke position – not really a forward-looking perspective.

      There are currently 10,000 inhabited islands in the world and almost no nukes, and the fossil fuels they burn often not native, and is diesel brought in by ship and electricity generated from it costs 30-40 kwh.

      that alone ought to spur development of “cheaper” fuels, I would think.

      I’m not a green-weenie. I support nukes (with caveats) and I think we will have to use gas for quite some time to deal with peak demands.

      OTOH – climate change is real and we need to transition to electricity that is less polluting even if it uses land and only has a 20% yield rate.

  26. There is much in the topic of electricity from solar panel fields that is overlooked. Solar panels are approximately 20 % effective. That is to say a 100-watt field is required to produce over a period of a year the equivalence of a full-time 20-watts source such as from a natural gas, coal, etc plant. (NOTE BENE’ – I am not arguing for one or the other.)

    So, if 100 watts of power is needed 24/7 then at a minimum a 500-watt solar field is required. To furthermore aggravate the circumstances this assumes the incident solar energy at full power is sufficient. It may be in Florida but not in Virginia. And it is a seasonal as well as a latitude matter.

    Regarding batteries it depends on the duration the battery can provide adequate output, i.e. energy storage. So while it might seem that one needs 400-watt power battery storage based on ‘power’ the battery requirement is based on ‘energy.’ Given the status of current battery technology that is to say the least a LARGE array of physical batteries.

    (Do understand – these thoughts are not an argument for or against. It is a matter of engineering/science reality that suggests we have a very long way to go and 2050 is a short time to get there. So Freitas’s position may be more valid than perceived.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar

      the difference between “nameplate” and net is a true issue but it is quantified in the levelized cost calculations.

      But also need to do apples-to-apples. For instance gas, coal, nuke – you have to figure the costs to extract (develop nuke fuel) and transport and remediation of removed mountaintops and stored spent nuke fuel.

      On storage, whenever it is actually practical, the cost needs to be added to the solar cost to get true cost.

      I see Freitas’s position as fairly standard Conservative “anti” renewable/pro fossil fuel/nuke position – not really a forward-looking perspective.

      There are currently 10,000 inhabited islands in the world and almost no nukes, and the fossil fuels they burn often not native, and is diesel brought in by ship and electricity generated from it costs 30-40 kwh.

      that alone ought to spur development of “cheaper” fuels, I would think.

      I’m not a green-weenie. I support nukes (with caveats) and I think we will have to use gas for quite some time to deal with peak demands.

      OTOH – climate change is real and we need to transition to electricity that is less polluting even if it uses land and only has a 20% yield rate.

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