Fuel Costs Explode on Dominion Bills in July

by Steve Haner

Are you enjoying paying more for gasoline? Have you noticed how that works its way through and inflates the price of just about everything else you buy? The other shoe drops in July when Dominion Energy Virginia increases its prices to reflect the rising cost of fuel. It will also spread more inflation virus throughout the economy.

The cost of fuel and purchased electricity is a separate charge, designated Rider A, on every monthly electric bill, residential and commercial. The annual fluctuations are usually small, and can go either way, but the increase this time will hit everybody hard and may hold for years. (Here is the case file.)

Dominion needs to collect more than $1 billion extra for the 12-month fuel cost period it is just finishing and is projecting it will need $2.2 billion for the 12- month cycle about to start July 1. The money reflects higher cost for natural gas, mainly, but Dominion also continues to burn coal and oil.  From July 2021 to March of 2022, natural gas prices had doubled, and coal prices were up 92%.

The rising costs of power the utility purchases from other generators are also reflected in the fuel charge. Uranium is rising in cost (spot prices up 45% and term prices 20% since February), largely due to the Russia-Ukraine War, but will not hit customers as hard as the higher prices for gas and coal.

The dramatic electricity cost projections made a few years ago when the General Assembly adopted the Virginia Clean Economy Act did not include these explosions in fossil fuel prices. For struggling consumers, especially those on tight family budgets, this is even more of a bad thing.

The utility has given the State Corporation Commission some options. It can raise the fuel charge sufficient to collect everything the utility thinks it will need in the next 12 months (also collecting the shortage from prior months), or it can spread the pain over two or three years.

Here is the utility’s take on what that does to the mythical residential consumer using 1,000 kilowatt hours per month (many use much more):

For a residential customer using 1,000 kWh per month, the average weighted monthly bill would increase under the three alternative recovery proposals as follows:

(1) increase $24.12 from $122.01 to $146.13, or by 19.8% based on the full recovery proposal,

(2)  increase $14.93 from $122.01 to $136.94, or by 12.2% based on the Three Year Mitigation proposal, and

(3) increase $17.23 from $122.01 to $139.24, or by 14.1% based on the Two Year Mitigation proposal.

Dominion is promoting option 2, the three-year proposal, costing only an additional $180 per year for the next 12 months from that so-called average user. But the higher costs last for three years. The SCC has decided to impose that on an interim basis as of July 1 as the application review drags out. A different amount could emerge after the hearings are held in early July.

Don’t feel you are saving anything. One year or three, you will pay it in full. And if, as many believe, these costs continue to rise, we’ll be right back here in a year looking at another substantial increase. The Russia-Ukraine War is dragging on, but just as important despite all the current posturing, the Biden Administration remains basically hostile to fossil fuel development and increasing gas and coal prices are seen as an incentive for renewable generation.

Under the best of circumstances, those new projects take time. The proposed offshore wind turbines, for example, are five years away at best. Yet their initial capital cost may appear on bills in September, cutting even more slack out of the family budget.

This is also painful for business customers. There is no discount on the fuel charge based on volume. It usually is a substantially larger portion of the total bill for the largest commercial and industrial customers, who do see volume discounts on other bill elements.  For once, though, they probably cannot escape by moving production elsewhere, as these costs are hitting the whole world.

Realities of the natural gas market were discussed in pre-filed testimony from Dominion’s manager of gas supply, Dale Hinson (emphasis added):

Domestic natural gas production increased approximately 4% during the July 2021 through March 2022 period compared to the similar period last year. However, domestic production gains were not uniform across eastern production regions. While more appreciable production increases (approximately 19%) were experienced in southeastern shale basins (Permian and Haynesville), Appalachia shale basin (Marcellus and Utica) increases were only 1.3%, illustrating ongoing impacts of pipeline bottlenecks due to the lack of sufficient pipeline infrastructure emanating from the Marcellus/Utica region.

Translation: There is the death of the Atlantic Coast Pipeline showing up on our bills, folks, along with the ongoing delays and possible defeat of the Mountain Valley Pipeline. Hinson also pointed to the increased export of U.S. gas to Europe and other markets in the form of LNG as driving up domestic prices.

The usually routine annual review is gearing up to be a battle this time, with industrial groups and environmental groups signing up as participants so they can file interrogatories and cross examine Dominion’s executives. The environmental groups are likely to blame these costs on Virginia’s slow adoption of wind, solar and battery technology. Questions they’ve asked about fossil-fuel plants have sparked a motion from Dominion to make information secret. Perhaps this time the environmental groups will take the lead demanding transparency.

Always clever with its public relations, Dominion is also highlighting its pending motion to stop directly collecting the Regional Greenhouse Gas Initiative carbon tax effective July 1. That would lower residential bills about $2-3 per month as the fuel charge goes up $15 or more.But as previously explained, customers still ultimately pay for RGGI (and the SCC hasn’t said yes to the change yet).

There is something to be said for truth in pricing. Hidden charges and accounting gimmicks make pricing inaccurate and send the wrong signals to consumers and the economy. The RGGI tax, as long as it exists, should clearly appear in full on every month’s bill (or you will forget it is there). Delaying the collection of 2021 fuel costs already incurred until 2023 or 2024 just risks an even bigger shock when those costs rise even higher (or delays the benefit of a price drop).

But promising big now and paying the bills later is the pattern with energy in Virginia. It is not that the can is kicked totally into the future. The full consumer cost just gets delayed until after the next round of state elections, as this three-year payback plan once again demonstrates.


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75 responses to “Fuel Costs Explode on Dominion Bills in July”

  1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
    Eric the half a troll

    “The dramatic electricity cost projections made a few years ago when the General Assembly adopted the Virginia Clean Economy Act did not include these explosions in fossil fuel prices.”

    All the more reason to move is off fossil fuels. With rising natural gas prices, renewables are looking better and better.

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      No, those capital cost projections were also unrealistic, and failed to account for the needed battery backup (because the real cost of that is frighteningly high and the technology ain’t there.) We will be having both, a balance of renewables and reliable base supply (a.k.a. gas and nuclear) , or we will be having a Third World economy in ten years. Only idiots think we can do it all with wind and solar and battery.

    2. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      No, those capital cost projections were also unrealistic, and failed to account for the needed battery backup (because the real cost of that is frighteningly high and the technology ain’t there.) We will be having both, a balance of renewables and reliable base supply (a.k.a. gas and nuclear) , or we will be having a Third World economy in ten years. Only idiots think we can do it all with wind and solar and battery.

      1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        But even a 50% reduction in the use of fossil fuels-based energy will save a significant amount of money.

        1. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Personal Property Tax — taxing a depreciating asset.
          Fossil fuels — depending on a disappearing asset.

          Two brilliant ideas for financial stability.

    3. Donald Smith Avatar
      Donald Smith

      “With rising natural gas prices, renewables are looking better and better.”

      Which was the progressives’ plan. We have enough oil and natural gas to fill our nation’s needs for decades. But, the progressives are artificially causing the cost of energy to go higher, through aggressive regulation and outright hostility to the fossil fuels industry.

      It’s almost as if they don’t care if average Americans suffer for years, even decades, until the real-world tech capabilities of renewable energy become effective and economical enough for average Americans to afford them. It’s as if the progressives are saying “let them eat high energy costs.”

      1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
        Eric the half a troll

        Four words in answer to your conspiracy theory rant… distributed solar power generation… personally my system is paying for itself and then some and the calculus just got that much better. As fossil fuel costs rise in continued response to demand, more and more companies will step up to fund more and more residential solar projects. A boon for those with the foresight to act in their own best interest.

    4. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      But, but… the sun don’t shine where we have our heads.

  2. walter smith Avatar
    walter smith

    The usual idiots spouting the Green (Marxist) line.
    Here’s how this works – let’s totally F up the domestic price of fossil fuel and use that as the reason to get off fossil fuels (ignoring that electricity has to come from somewhere, and while opposing nuclear power.) They’ve done such a good job, give them more power!
    Have either of them ever read a skeptic of the Death by Climate crowd, like WattsUpWithThat.com? I sincerely doubt it…
    Meanwhile, the average US car uses 650 gallons of gas a year… times $3 a gallon is real money! Add in that to food, etc, oh, and power bills and Joe Average (you know, the little guy the Lefties claim to love so much) gets screwed over – BIGLY!
    I vote for VEPCO to do the real cost – not the spread over 3 years – we have to pay it anyway, one way or the other – people need to feel the pain of voting for Leftists – mean Tweets and prosperity or a brain-addled idiot being advised by a bunch of credentialed academics who only know how to fail up…. (Janet Yellen anyone, anyone?) Seems like a no-brainer to me, but maybe I’m giving Leftists too much credit of possibly having a brain…

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      None of this is an accident, but the Ukraine war sure accelerated the “transition”!

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        Neither is a crack addiction… price of cocaine going up.

    2. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      “Here’s how this works…” …in the imaginary Conservative world…

      1. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        In the locker room…
        “You need to diet.”
        “Why, what color is it now?”
        “No, I mean look at you. You’re 80 pounds overweight. You don’t exercise. You’re a heart attack in the making.”
        “Harry ran 10 miles every day. Got hit by a bus.”

        And on the global stage…
        “Probably gonna get hit by an asteroid anyway.”

      2. Nancy Naive Avatar
        Nancy Naive

        In the locker room…
        “You need to diet.”
        “Why, what color is it now?”
        “No, I mean look at you. You’re 80 pounds overweight. You don’t exercise. You’re a heart attack in the making.”
        “Harry ran 10 miles every day. Got hit by a bus.”

        And on the global stage…
        “Probably gonna get hit by an asteroid anyway.”

    3. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      have to ask yourself why does the cost of natural gas go up if the supplies of natural gas are the same or increasing?

      Of course to get to that answer, you have to want to know the actual facts like verify the actual supplies of natural gas.

      In other words, is there a shortage of natural gas caused by govt regulation/legal challenges and that’s what’s causing price increases?

      so simple thing – go get the data and come back after you got it and discuss.

      here’s a start:

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5f130f9c00108bd26b7d643b9b435c366dce8c4fa5acd8d684b383175bebf61a.jpg

      1. walter smith Avatar
        walter smith

        Yeah….prices just go up, having nothing to do with Green Nude Eel stupidity, and Larry pulls out the propaganda chart from a government agency (and we all know we are to trust implicitly everything our government tells us) that is already 4 years old and that is PROOF – PROOF I tell you! – just like Larry’s SCIENCE!
        I don’t know…4 years later and prices drastically higher…
        But trust Larry and his SCIENCE! crowd to be right this time and ignore the prices you are paying.
        Me personally, I LOVE that my Starbucks House Blend at Walmart has gone from $9.88 to $11.12 to $13.24. Or that my 8 pack Jimmy Dean sausage patties have gone from $4.29 to $4.49 to $4.82…just by chance!
        PRICE IS TRUTH…sorta like SCIENCE!

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          supply and demand is real and in the past Conservatives would often cite it to liberals as the real world.

          now, Conservatives live in their own little world and reject science and data… and cling to myths and beliefs and have no problem at all with misrepresenting issues then whine when someone provides actual data that shows the realities.

          1. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Um…your chart is 4 years old…
            Did anything happen in the 4 year interval?
            Larry – you are a waste of time.
            You never acknowledge reality.
            Let’s try something simple.
            2+2 = 4
            Is that true?

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I started you off Walter. i asked you to also get some data to prove your point and you have not. Yes, a pandemic did happen and that’s part of the issue but the supply dipped and regained.

            You don’t like data guy. You want to believe what you want to believe and data and science that contradict it are your enemy.

          3. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Larry will not admit that 2+2 = 4

          4. DJRippert Avatar
            DJRippert

            What is your point? That the price of energy is not going up?

          5. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            the point? the point is that world markets determine the price of oil and gas, not Joe biden and the claims that we are reducing production is easily contradicted by direct evidence – data and charts.

            Walter, and other conservative types here seem to deny the facts and realities…and some who write blog posts here – actually seem to purposely seek to misrepresent and deceive and then others here have to go dig up the actual facts and truth.

          6. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Then how does the price go up Larry?
            And with the price going up, why does Joe take actions to make more US production harder?
            (Larry now goes to his Dem operatives to create another false impression – this one something like a number of wells are not drilled, or record lease applications…but ignoring reality of the increased production taxes or the incredible length of time it takes for a lease to be approved and then to get to production)
            EIA – a government agency…totally to be trusted because Larry’s team is in power.
            Hey, Larry – does 2+2 = 4 or not?

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Walter do you actually read the charts and the narrative that goes with them?

            ” During the first four months of 2022, the United States exported 74% of its liquefied natural gas (LNG) to Europe, compared with an annual average of 34% last year, according to our recently released Natural Gas Monthly and EIA estimates for April 2022. In 2020 and 2021, Asia had been the main destination for U.S. LNG exports, accounting for almost half of the total exports.”

            ” HOUSTON, June 1 (Reuters) – The United States exported 7.29 million tonnes of liquefied natural gas (LNG) last month, second highest on record, as sales to Europe and South America expanded, according to Refinitiv Eikon data.

            The United States is on track to become the world’s largest LNG exporter this year, topping Australia and Qatar, as producers work to boost liquefaction capacity.”

            https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/may-us-lng-exports-reach-2nd-highest-latam-shipments-gain-data-2022-06-01/

            Walter, you are demonstrating the problem with Conservatives these days.

            You just don’t believe data that contradicts your beliefs AND you refuse to provide actual data that supports your beliefs.

            Haner knows why prices are skyrocketting – he could have also provided the reason in his blog post but instead he chose to not.

            so then , others have to supply the data and then we run into folks who, once presented with the data, then claim they can’t trust the govt…

            and so it goes with you guys…

          8. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
            energyNOW_Fan

            “…United States exported 74% of its liquefied natural gas (LNG)” of course, LNG is mostly made for export. This is NOT saying 74% of our total nat gas supply.

          9. DJRippert Avatar
            DJRippert

            Yes, another fake stat by Larry. LNG is hardly equal to our total natural gas production and it is definitely made for export.

          10. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
            energyNOW_Fan

            Nobody is saying nat gas export is not a factor in prices. Europe had an energy crisis before Ukraine, they had under-estimated needs for nat gas and closed off all of their own supplies, in favor of green energy. Then they had a crisis which made USA LNG imports more important to them, and brought USA more into the global market, and out of our own local depressed market..

          11. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            well no, it was not mentioned and instead the claim was that the cause of the spikes was restrictions on supply and pipelines.

            That was not the facts.

            And all I was trying to do was get the facts out. Our production is not being restricted, we are producing as much as we did before and then some.

            So what’s the REAL reason prices are going up for gas?

            It appears that it’s exports from the data I found.

            Are there other reasons with evidence to support?

            I”m all for the facts. And you cannot have a real discussion on the merits if the facts are misrepresented.

            NG, now that it is being exported will be sold to the highest bidders – no matter who they are – Europe or otherwise.

            And that means we have to pay the bid price if we want it domestically.

            As long as we convert NG to LNG and export it – the price of it will be determined by world markets.

            And that’s true even if we produce MORE of it… if the bid price is higher overseas, they will get it and we will have to pay that bid price to get it domestically.

          12. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            no it’s not but if you read the other charts, you will see that natural gas capacity is increasing, not decreasing.

            but here… read this and see if you are more convinced:

            https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7158e533b3b82cf327dca529484b9b3556e04c5d437fd27bfc4d91a8e9dbb2da.jpg

            https://www.naturalgasintel.com/ferc-says-lng-export-growth-key-factor-in-higher-summer-natural-gas-electric-prices/

          13. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Great to get a reality lecture from a reality-denier.
            Why then, Larry, have the prices gone up?
            Can you explain?
            Could it have anything to do with our brain addled President’s policies? You know, the guy who promised he would end fossil fuels during his basement campaign, where he got 8 million more votes than Obama because of the systemic racism of Dems.
            2+2 = 4
            True or not?
            5 > 2.5
            True or not?
            Did you pass first grade?

          14. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            simple answer Walter. The price is up because more people want it and they bid for it.

            We could produce more of it but the price would not come down if other markets overseas want it and are willing to pay more for it.

          15. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            Wow. And nothing to do with anything else. Just those evil furriners!
            Let’s try reality.
            Does 2 + 2 = 4?
            Is 5 greater than 2.5?
            Can you define what a woman is?
            These are not trick questions.
            How about this one – does geofencing, used to arrest the “insurrectionists,” work?
            How about this one – when did the VAERS system become unreliable?
            I hope you get paid for your constant, unwavering, mind-numbed loyalty to Team D…

          16. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            nope. not evil. pure world markets supply/demand.

            I’ll leave the rest of your foolishness alone for you to twaddle with.

          17. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            And I’ll know you are a propagandist who would prefer to die instead of betraying the Team D narrative. Were you glued to today’s Insurrection reality show? Have you gotten your talking points yet?

          18. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Walter – I’m afraid to know what goes on in your head some days…

          19. walter smith Avatar
            walter smith

            I know. You are terrified of logic and reason and Truth. And that is too bad for you…

          20. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Yep, denialism is a huge part of their repertoire these days. Walter is a prime example.

  3. James Wyatt Whitehead Avatar
    James Wyatt Whitehead

    Wunnerful! Pay more now. Pay more later too. At least it is still equitable right? I learned a lot. Thank you.

  4. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Might take awhile to get the offshore wind up and running but quick and easy to do more solar panels if available. Every watt you get from solar is one less watt you pay out the nose for gas.

    yes, you’ll have to burn gas at night but less overall.

    would not be surprised if Dominion took a look at the future at saw this coming to be.

    Makes pure economic sense no matter your views on the environment or liberals or whoever else you hate or believe about climate.

    1. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Yeast 1: Hey, this is a closed volume.
      Yeast 2: Yeah, so what?
      Yeast 1: Well, if we keep eating sugar and peeing alcohol, do you want might happen?
      Yeast 2: No, what?
      Yeast 1: What what? Hand me some more sugar.

  5. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    People will argue over why gasoline prices are high but why are natural gas prices skyrocketing? It don’t take much looking to find out. LNG for export is booming and lucrative if you can get the gas to the export terminals. The only way to do that is ship it through existing pipelines that serve existing needs – power plants.

    They want to build more pipelines to carry the gas for export.
    That won’t necessarily make it cheaper for domestic if demand for
    export continues to expand.

    the price for domestic gas will be set by what LNG fetches for export.

    THIS is actually the same issue as gasoline.

    It don’t matter what supply and demand is in the US if gasoline or natural gas can be exported and it can and is and for higher prices.

    When Europe sells gas at $6-7-8 a gallon, it will outbid the US trying to get it domestically for $3-4 even though that gas comes from the US wells. It’s priced by world demand.

    We could “ramp up” production out the wazoo but if overseas is willing to pay more for it – it won’t lower the price in the US.

    The US investors who own the oil and gas want the best price they can get for it. They don’t care if the buyer is overseas or domestic as long as they pay the high bid.

    Not something that should have to be explained to Conservatives, who until recently, were among the biggest supporters of globalization.

    So now that the real-world economics have come home to roost , Conservatives play the blame games but the world economy is working exactly the way most Conservatives say it should and blaming liberals won’t change it.

    what you can’t export and what the world cannot set the domestic price in the US for – is solar/wind-produced electricity (and nuke-produced).

  6. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    re: ” Appalachia shale basin (Marcellus and Utica) increases were only 1.3%, illustrating ongoing impacts of pipeline bottlenecks due to the lack of sufficient pipeline infrastructure emanating from the Marcellus/Utica region.

    Translation: There is the death of the Atlantic Coast Pipeline showing up on our bills, folks, along with the ongoing delays and possible defeat of the Mountain Valley Pipeline. Hinson also pointed to the increased export of U.S. gas to Europe and other markets in the form of LNG as driving up domestic prices.”

    A bit of a mish-mash but seems like increased export needs pipelines also, no?

    Could moving gas for export on the same pipelines cause that “bottleneck” for domestic as well as increased price for domestic?

    If natural gas skyrockets in price, why would we need more pipeline capacity?

    Would Haner tell us this or spin it his way? 😉

    I read these tomes with tongue planted in cheek…

    always good to get a second opinion….

    1. Stephen Haner Avatar
      Stephen Haner

      Not even worth a response, Larry. Yes, Eric, some savings on operating costs are possible. But remember the gas plants are here and paying for them to stand idle is also a cost. At some point the hysteria about CO2 will be proven to be baseless. Coal will and should continue to disappear from power plants.

  7. Baconator with extra cheese Avatar
    Baconator with extra cheese

    Rising fuel costs are great for those who have suffered inequities. This nudge towards decarbonization will further equity. When we’re all facing poverty only then will we be equal. God bless Brandon for creating equity! Long live the anti- Orangeman!

    1. DJRippert Avatar
      DJRippert

      Joe Biden has proven to be a senile, empty-suited buffoon of a clown. Even Obama, et al knew the truth … “Don’t underestimate Joe’s ability to f*** things up.” And that was eight or nine years ago before the senility really set in.

      The big question is when the gasoline shortages and lines at the pump begin. That will represent a “full Carter”.

      But we don’t have mean Tweets, and I guess (to liberals) that is what counts.

      1. Matt Adams Avatar
        Matt Adams

        Well you’ve got a poster on this board who claimed he made money during the Carter years. So maybe he’s hoping to go back to that.

      2. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        doing your Trump impersonation again? Not a good look for you DJ. You didn’t used to be a name-caller.

        simple truth: the price of oil and gas is set by world markets. Conservatives, even faux-conservatives used to believe that. Now it violates their beliefs so they reject it and try to blame it on someone.

  8. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    Oh dear. It’s a plague. It must be something we’ve done to anger God.

  9. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    It seems like a long time ago now, but I seem to remember from the discussion on BR (in saner times) about the Atlantic Coast Pipeline that it terminus was going to be in North Carolina and its primary function was going to be transporting natural gas for export and not to power Dominion’s electric generation plants. Furthermore, even if it had been cancelled, the pipeline would not have been completed by now. In summary, I do not understand how the cancellation of the pipeline contributed to the increase in the cost of natural gas, which will result in higher fuel factor costs on our electric bills.

    1. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
      energyNOW_Fan

      It was Larry who said it was for export and somehow export is unethical.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/77e236f3b9c67a51fdc80f0192eb7169b99b63faeb6e2f48c481f5b1cc50fe6f.jpg

      not unethical at all – it’s the way world markets work

      the possibility/eventuality that NG could be exported was always there – just a matter of time – when.

      So just like with oil/gasoline, the world market sets the price and the irony is – they’ve moving NG to the ports for export over the existing pipelines that feed the power plants – so now there is not enough pipeline capacity to do both – so they have ‘bottlenecks’.

      just the facts, man

      1. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
        energyNOW_Fan

        I deleted that comment above almost immediately after writing it

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          yep… sorry about that.

      2. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

    3. Nancy Naive Avatar
      Nancy Naive

      Timing is, uh, nothing? But, but…
      https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vknNzCtR954

  10. Nancy Naive Avatar
    Nancy Naive

    And the sun shines on and on…
    https://www.dallasfed.org/research/economics/2022/0208

  11. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
    energyNOW_Fan

    Around 2009 or so, the natural gas market crashed. We would have to compare 2022 cost with 2008 cost of natural gas (which I am too lazy the the moment) but I believe we are still relatively cheap compared to historical measures. So we got accustomed to extremely depressed natural gas prices, which may prevail longer term, but we have a squeeze at the moment due to COVID and Putin and sure let’s add hostility towards fossil fuels in the USA.

    Meanwhile the extremely depressed natural gas prices, allowed Dominion and GA to start tacking on all kinds of extras on the electric bills. Coming home to roost now.

    PS- Even the cost of the Offwind Wind project is made possible by cheap natural gas/fossil fuels. The implication is renewables are also going to escalate in cost, possible to the point of making Offshore Wind un-economical. I really mean worse than uneconomical.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        aw geeze.. there you go again, providing actual facts… dang it…

      2. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
        energyNOW_Fan

        …something looks very wrong there, that may be cost to consumer of nat gas to the house which is whacky cost

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          okay then go get the data that supports what you are saying… okay?

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            so the price was headed up in 2020?

            Joe Biden took office in 2021?

            5 dollars per cu foot in 2020

            what is it now?

        2. Nancy Naive Avatar
          Nancy Naive

          Well? Guess you need to not be lazy.
          There are similar tables for gasoline, for example, which with the exception of the last month, that from 1978 in 2022 dollars, the price of gasoline was between ~$3.90 to ~$5.00. It has the ring of… plausibility.

          1. energyNOW_Fan Avatar
            energyNOW_Fan

            You lefty guys are comparing today’s peak cost of gas/gasoline to the cheap renewable costs of yesteryear when fossil fuel cost was depressed, and therefore renewables were cheaper. Lithium price for example is skyrocketing way more than crude oil, so you gotta realize cheap renewable energy is no more realistic than forever cheap fossil fuel prices. Electrification requires much more metals resources and fossil fuel to make the equipment to harvest the renewable energy.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            actually not. comparing the cost of natural gas to fuel power plants verses the cost of wind/solar to power plants.

            Lithium is AFTER the power is produced either from gas or renewables.

            You don’t need “backup power” during the day so use that power – as is – when it IS available.

            why would we pay MORE for gas to generate electricity – at those times when wind/solar are available AND cheaper?

            it’s an economic issue not partisan – lefty/rightie unless one makes it that way.

          3. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            I think storage costs are an issue that should go into the calculus just like refining and transportation costs for petroleum resources are part of the equation. But it should be looked at in terms of today’s economics (not some potential future). Today solar (even with batteries for electric cars) is far cheaper to use as a energy resource than oil & gas. Lithium batteries will likely be a part of the (near term at least) future mix of the solution to storage but it is not the entire picture. Maybe important for vehicles, but for grid stability other options exist.

          4. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            At some point, by 2050 or later, if/when wind/solar are expected to provide 24/7 grid electricity – yes. By that time, we may have figured out how to cheaply make hydrogen for 24/7 “fuel’ and storage batteries have a different role.

            who knows?

            but right now, from a pure economic viewpoint, burn the cheapest fuel when it is available so you can avoid burning a more expensive fuel (for no good reason economic reason).

            No reasonable mainstream environmentalist is advocating dropping all fossil fuels right now today.

            They acknowledge it’s a decades long process that will continue to rely on fossil fuels but less and less – like we are now doing with CFCs and coal (we still do burn SOME coal and we are not yet CFC-free ).

            But the climate deniers on the far right like to point to their far left counterparts to gin up boogeyman FUD (fear, uncertainty, dread).

            The mainstream DOES believe climate is an issue and we must start a transition and it will involve the use of fossil fuels as well as nuclear..

            It’s a 30-year transition to a “goal” not a “back to living in caves” thing.

            IMHO of course.

          5. Nancy Naive Avatar
            Nancy Naive

            So’s coal. The point being, nothing is cheap and even less is wihout cost.

          6. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            Depends… distributed generation continues to be cheap. True electric cars cost more but as gas prices rise, they are more and more attractive. There are other methods to address grid reliability that are carbon neutral and even carbon negative. As lithium prices increase these will most certainly come on line. Industrial users are already developing full-scale green hydrogen projects. Real money is behind this now.

          7. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            the game will be over if cheap Hydrogen is developed. All of this back and forth will cease.

          8. Eric the half a troll Avatar
            Eric the half a troll

            The issue is not in generating the hydrogen, it is in putting that hydrogen into existing distribution infrastructure. The hydrogen can (as certain concentrations) create corrosive conditions which is simply too dangerous for mass consumption. Were you have large industrial end-users, the generation/de-carbonization facility can be built at or near the point of consumption. See this press release for instance:

            https://www.airproducts.com/news-center/2022/04/0422-air-products-and-world-energy-sustainable-aviation-fuel-facility-in-california

    1. Eric the half a troll Avatar
      Eric the half a troll

      I thought today… yeah, just wait until the next global recession (it is coming at some point)… natural gas prices will fall (and wells will once again be shut in).

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