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Energy Omnibus II: It Doesn’t Shut Gas Plants

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by

Steve Haner
in , , ,

Virginia City Hybrid Energy Center, St. Paul, VA. It survives until at least 2030 and perhaps 2045 in the clean energy legislation. Dominion Photo.

By Steve Haner

Will all of Virginia’s existing fossil fuel electric power plants be closed under Governor Ralph Northam’s new clean energy transition legislation? As we continue our detailed examination of House Bill 1526 (with line references), the answers may surprise some. Not many of them. Not the natural gas plants.

Dominion Energy Virginia has been on a building spree for more than a decade, financing new coal, natural gas and woody biomass generators around the state with “rate adjustment clauses,” specific charged for specific projects. All of them emit carbon dioxide. Monthly bills now include six separate RACs or “riders,” costing residential consumers $12.43 cents for every one thousand kilowatt hours of juice they consume. 

Environmental activists disappointed in Governor Ralph Northam’s new clean energy transition legislation were looking for a far quicker retirement of existing fossil fuel generation and a ban on development of any new power plants emitting carbon dioxide or using transported natural gas. They preferred the stronger House Bill 77, more aligned with Green New Deal ideology, which passed one committee but was left in Appropriations to die.

Beginning on line 1284 of the successful bill (House engrossed version) the utilities are instructed to stop burning coal by 2024, except for a plant Dominion shares with the electric cooperatives and the newest Virginia coal plant, built by Dominion in Wise County. But in other proceedings, the utility has reported plans to close its remaining coal and oil units soon without this bill.

There is no mention in the bill of the company’s largest coal plant just across the line in West Virginia, so old it is covered in base rates and not a rider, although earlier versions apparently included language seeking to include it in the coal closure mandate.

All the biomass operations (supported by the smallest of the bill riders) must close by 2028, again with the exception of the Wise County plant, which mixes coal with wood.

Del. Terry Kilgore, R-Gate City, who has been a strong Dominion supporter in past battles, gave a speech in defense of that plant and against this bill on the House floor. That Wise County coal plant can remain open beyond 2030, but only if it installs a successful method to capture and sequester its CO2 emissions (line 1291). That technology does not now exist.

It isn’t until 2045 (see line 1294) that it and all other carbon-emitting plants must close. Dominion may preserve the heart of its new fossil fuel fleet for another two or three decades – the vast majority of their useful lifespans — if it complies with other mandates in the rest of the bill.

That might be good news for ratepayers who must pay for them either way, open or closed. But customers will also watch new rate adjustment clauses (riders) blossom on their bills for the offshore wind, onshore wind, square miles of solar fields and fleets of storage facilities demanded in this bill. With its authority weakened, there is not much the State Corporation Commission can do to prevent construction of excess generation in Dominion’s territory.

New fossil fuel plants are not  prohibited in the Governor’s legislation. The bills which passed the Virginia House and Senate Tuesday contain only a temporary moratorium on new fossil fuel generation and lay groundwork for a quick ban. There are three constraints on new fossil fuel plants in the bill.

In the enactment clauses at the end of the omnibus clean energy bill, clause number seven on line 1997 calls for the Northam Administration to prepare a report by January 2022 (note: after the next election) on how to achieve “100 percent carbon free electric energy generation by 2050 at least cost for ratepayers,” including a recommendation on whether to ban further fossil fuel plants. Only after that may the State Corporation Commission approve another fossil fuel plant.

Adding a belt to those suspenders, on line 593 it states that the State Corporation Commission may only approve more gas generation if it is needed for “the reliability and security of electric service,” and if the utility in question is meeting its energy savings goals established in this bill. Finally, there was the late addition by floor amendment of enactment clause 13, starting on line 2031. It reads:

  1. That by January 1, 2028, if the Secretary of Natural Resources and the Secretary of Commerce and Trade determine that the greenhouse gas reduction targets are not met pursuant to § 10.1-1330, then there shall be a moratorium on the issuance of permits for new fossil fuel fired generating facilities by January 1, 2030.

January 2028 is two governors down the line, and Virginia seems to upend its utility regulation policy between every election. New plants are theoretically possible, but if those three provisions become part of Virginia law, raising outside capital for additional fossil fuel generation is bound to be very difficult. But on close examination, it appears that most of the existing fleet of carbon-emitting plants (including the Dominion-owned coal plant in West Virginia) will continue operations for decades.

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81 responses to “Energy Omnibus II: It Doesn’t Shut Gas Plants”

  1. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    There’s a pretty good disconnect here. Both TomH and Acbar say that Dominion does not power it’s own grid. It has to buy power from PJM and any power it produces itself – has to be sent to PJM.

    PJM does not care what kind of generation produced the power – it’s sold on a bid basis.

    So if this is the case, then how does Dominion benefit by building/operating more gas plants or a wood/coal plant especially if others in the PJM territory are generating electricity from solar?

    If solar can sell for less than gas, then Dominion would lose money
    trying to sell gas-generatied power against solar-generated power.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      My understanding is the newer natural gas plants remain competitive and operate successfully in the market still. I was wondering where the base load would be, and now I know. Less worry about reliability, but we’re not eliminating that CO2….so the point of this is? The coal was going away anyway because of those market forces.

      1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        Plus gas fired (+ nuke?) remains key to holding our energy future together, as everyone informed knew had to be the case, with the rest of it feeding off and sustained by gas and (nuke?), but way expensive now as long discussed.

    2. Rowinguy Avatar
      Rowinguy

      Dominion does power itself; its generation function sells power into PJM and its distribution function (the “Load Serving Entity”) buys it out. Dominion is a “self-supplier” in PJM parlance. As of today, Dominion participates in the PJM capacity markets, and receives income based on the effective capacity of the plants it bids into the periodic auctions. Appalachian does not participate in the capacity markets; it participates in PJM under something called “FRR.” Essentially, it assures PJM that it will take care of its own capacity obligations.

      PJM recently proposed, and FERC approved, a change in its capacity market rules that will require all newly constructed units in the PJM footprint to become subject to something called the “Minimum Offer Pricing Rule,” that will raise the price of capacity. Dominion is worried by this development and may decide to become an “FRR” participant.

      So far, all I’ve been talking about is the capacity market, that is, the ability to provide power. PJM also operates a far larger wholesale energy market, through which the output of those generation units is sold to LSEs daily. The way energy moves through PJM to distributors is a different topic and may be the cause of much of the confusion over its operation. For instance, energy is priced at the cost of the market clearing bid–the highest price of offered power needed to meet the immediate load. Generators that “win” the bid don’t get paid what they bid, they all get paid at the highest bid needed to clear the market.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        Thanks Rowingu. Now if I can ever get your words of wisdom to mesh with TomH and Acbars, I might know something more than I do now!

        I’d have to put this subject right up there with health care in terms of the average schmucks ability to understand it!

        And, it’s important to understand it for those who want to see our grid and it’s ability to migrate to less polluting and less expensive energy as well as accommodate non-dispatchable renewables.

        So, if you were so inclined and willing to share your perspective of how this might work in Virginia, you’d have several ears tuned in to become better informed.

        For instance, I had not realized that there were different levels of relationship with PJM and it sounds like APCO is very different than Dominion in it’s relationship with PJM .

        I do not yet understand the current relationship of Dominion with PJM in terms of what happens when Dominion proposes and/or builds new gas plants or new solar or offshore.

        Does Dominion’s relationship with PJM function similarly to other PJM members besides APCO or is the Dominion/PJM relationship different and more unique? Do other member states build/maintain gas plants and solar/wind the same as Dominion or different?

        You may not know all the answers but I’m suspecting you know more than many others here in BR and it will benefit us that want to know more so we can better understand what Virginia should be doing if they can move Dominion in that direction.

        1. TomH Avatar
          TomH

          Larry,
          What Rowinguy said about PJM’s energy market corresponds to what Acbar and I said. He provided a lot more information about the capacity market. I didn’t bring that up because PJM does not allow renewables to qualify for the capacity market since they cannot be dispatched.

          Dominion has to get PJM’s permission to attach a new power plant to the grid. But PJM is not involved in the approval to build one.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Well.. shows how much I don’t know, not even recognizing all 3 of you are saying the same thing!

            All 3 uses some lingo that I do not quite comprehend – for instance “capacity market” and “load serving entity”. I know what the LSE is but do not understand the difference between the “capacity market” which I presume the LSE that has generation – provides to that market but what is it called when the LSE buys electricity from PJM.. is that the same market?

            I thought, for instance, that NOVEC – a cooperative – does not generate and it buys all it’s power from PJM. Whereas the rest of the Recs in Virginia have some sort of arrangement with ODEC. But isn’t ODEC also sending it’s power to PJM and these other coops buying it from PJM?

            I appreciate ya’ll patience.. this is not easy for me to understand..perhaps others are getting it better than I.

  2. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    There’s a pretty good disconnect here. Both TomH and Acbar say that Dominion does not power it’s own grid. It has to buy power from PJM and any power it produces itself – has to be sent to PJM.

    PJM does not care what kind of generation produced the power – it’s sold on a bid basis.

    So if this is the case, then how does Dominion benefit by building/operating more gas plants or a wood/coal plant especially if others in the PJM territory are generating electricity from solar?

    If solar can sell for less than gas, then Dominion would lose money
    trying to sell gas-generatied power against solar-generated power.

    1. Rowinguy Avatar
      Rowinguy

      Dominion does power itself; its generation function sells power into PJM and its distribution function (the “Load Serving Entity”) buys it out. Dominion is a “self-supplier” in PJM parlance. As of today, Dominion participates in the PJM capacity markets, and receives income based on the effective capacity of the plants it bids into the periodic auctions. Appalachian does not participate in the capacity markets; it participates in PJM under something called “FRR.” Essentially, it assures PJM that it will take care of its own capacity obligations.

      PJM recently proposed, and FERC approved, a change in its capacity market rules that will require all newly constructed units in the PJM footprint to become subject to something called the “Minimum Offer Pricing Rule,” that will raise the price of capacity. Dominion is worried by this development and may decide to become an “FRR” participant.

      So far, all I’ve been talking about is the capacity market, that is, the ability to provide power. PJM also operates a far larger wholesale energy market, through which the output of those generation units is sold to LSEs daily. The way energy moves through PJM to distributors is a different topic and may be the cause of much of the confusion over its operation. For instance, energy is priced at the cost of the market clearing bid–the highest price of offered power needed to meet the immediate load. Generators that “win” the bid don’t get paid what they bid, they all get paid at the highest bid needed to clear the market.

  3. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Translation: rates will skyrocket, along with excess, duplicative, and mismatched generation and distribution, together with major obstacles to developing informed strategic growth for future that will further drive up costs and inefficiencies. Quite likely a tangled mess is in store for Virginia’s energy future.

  4. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
    Reed Fawell 3rd

    Translation: rates will skyrocket, along with excess, duplicative, and mismatched generation and distribution, together with major obstacles to developing informed strategic growth for future that will further drive up costs and inefficiencies. Quite likely a tangled mess is in store for Virginia’s energy future.

  5. vaconsumeradvocate Avatar
    vaconsumeradvocate

    In other words, Dominion retains control, retains it’s fossil fuel facilities, while the SCC’s hands are tied and rate payers pay more and have limited ability to access renewables, especially if they want to own the facility themselves. What a deal.

    LarrytheG, PJM made it pretty clear it supports fossil fuels more than renewables with its latest capacity market rules. PJM is not friendly to renewables.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      I see PJM as agnostic on fuels. They operate a market where various suppliers offer electricity at auction and how it is being generated is not at issue.

      If solar can generate electricity for less dollars than gas – and can sell at auction for less – then gas will not generate until solar recedes.

  6. vaconsumeradvocate Avatar
    vaconsumeradvocate

    In other words, Dominion retains control, retains it’s fossil fuel facilities, while the SCC’s hands are tied and rate payers pay more and have limited ability to access renewables, especially if they want to own the facility themselves. What a deal.

    LarrytheG, PJM made it pretty clear it supports fossil fuels more than renewables with its latest capacity market rules. PJM is not friendly to renewables.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      I see PJM as agnostic on fuels. They operate a market where various suppliers offer electricity at auction and how it is being generated is not at issue.

      If solar can generate electricity for less dollars than gas – and can sell at auction for less – then gas will not generate until solar recedes.

  7. Jane Twitmyer Avatar
    Jane Twitmyer

    Two questions … What about Mt. Storm? It is ‘old coal’ but had not been on the close list before … Located in WVA it hasn’t counted in some calculations even thought it is counted as supplying VA.
    AND what about the extension to the nukes licenses now that Dominion is planning to build out the offshore lease?

  8. Jane Twitmyer Avatar
    Jane Twitmyer

    Two questions … What about Mt. Storm? It is ‘old coal’ but had not been on the close list before … Located in WVA it hasn’t counted in some calculations even thought it is counted as supplying VA.
    AND what about the extension to the nukes licenses now that Dominion is planning to build out the offshore lease?

  9. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Steve, thanks for your close reading of what’s in the bill. As they say, the devil is in the details. Your interpretation dovetails pretty closely with Dominion’s recent press release committing to “net zero” carbon emissions by 2050. Dominion’s definition of “net zero” means reducing carbon emissions from its power generating facilities by 80% between 2005 and 2050. That means 20% of its electricity (calculated on a 2005 base) still will be generated by fossil fuels by 2050. To put that into context, remember that, according to Dom itself, the company has cut carbon emissions by 50% since 2005 already. Dom has created a nice easy glide path for itself over the next 30 years.

    The good news is that Dominion probably will not have to close its newer natural gas power stations, which means rate payers have less to fear in the way of stranded assets.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Still fascinating that the climate warriors are rallying around this bill, which on closer and closer examination leaves CO2 in place and is just a giant new unegulated building program and some RPS goals the state was likely to achieve without legislation. Even when they built the Wise County plant a decade ago it was clear coal was “walking dead” and the conversion to gas was going to greatly reduce carbon emissions. Now solar is price competitive and expanding. Great! In 2019 global carbon emissions showed zero growth, for the first time, despite overall economic growth.

      https://www.iea.org/articles/global-co2-emissions-in-2019

      Note, advanced economies (that would be us) declined despite strong economies, meaning the remaining problem is the rest of the world. The “hair on fire” climate catastrophe scenarios are all based on growing, growing CO2. But they don’t dare back off their overwrought fear campaign. The law of diminishing returns is totally suspended for this debate. The people who will get rich off this bill are driving it.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        different ways of seeing it:

        https://assets.weforum.org/editor/ZynYWvcY6ffDNb–dtcsWslj10J_IasTftachrC3cTE.png

        1. Steve Haner Avatar
          Steve Haner

          Yeah, but who on the list has gone DOWN since 2016, and who up? That’s what actually matters. India and China love to measure their output per capita!

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            I’ll try to find a more up to date but the point here is that when someone is barely using any energy compared to folks in our country – how can they reduce much more on a per capita basis?

  10. James A. Bacon Avatar
    James A. Bacon

    Steve, thanks for your close reading of what’s in the bill. As they say, the devil is in the details. Your interpretation dovetails pretty closely with Dominion’s recent press release committing to “net zero” carbon emissions by 2050. Dominion’s definition of “net zero” means reducing carbon emissions from its power generating facilities by 80% between 2005 and 2050. That means 20% of its electricity (calculated on a 2005 base) still will be generated by fossil fuels by 2050. To put that into context, remember that, according to Dom itself, the company has cut carbon emissions by 50% since 2005 already. Dom has created a nice easy glide path for itself over the next 30 years.

    The good news is that Dominion probably will not have to close its newer natural gas power stations, which means rate payers have less to fear in the way of stranded assets.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Still fascinating that the climate warriors are rallying around this bill, which on closer and closer examination leaves CO2 in place and is just a giant new unegulated building program and some RPS goals the state was likely to achieve without legislation. Even when they built the Wise County plant a decade ago it was clear coal was “walking dead” and the conversion to gas was going to greatly reduce carbon emissions. Now solar is price competitive and expanding. Great! In 2019 global carbon emissions showed zero growth, for the first time, despite overall economic growth.

      https://www.iea.org/articles/global-co2-emissions-in-2019

      Note, advanced economies (that would be us) declined despite strong economies, meaning the remaining problem is the rest of the world. The “hair on fire” climate catastrophe scenarios are all based on growing, growing CO2. But they don’t dare back off their overwrought fear campaign. The law of diminishing returns is totally suspended for this debate. The people who will get rich off this bill are driving it.

  11. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    So, Terry Kilgore, with all his complaining, got the coal plant in Southwest Virginia, exempted.

  12. Dick Hall-Sizemore Avatar
    Dick Hall-Sizemore

    So, Terry Kilgore, with all his complaining, got the coal plant in Southwest Virginia, exempted.

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      I was “phoning some friends” before writing this post, and learned something interesting about that plant, and the others. Once there is a formal plan to close them (even a few years down the road), their book value is impaired. The local property taxes are based on the book value. So localities that have these facilities may see significant drops in revenue well before they close. That may be part of Kilgore’s concern. It just gets more complicated the more one digs. And of course, the taxes are all passed on as costs to ratepayers, so if their taxes DO go down those RACs I mentioned also will tick down….But for the gas plants, no need to plan to close!

  13. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    so we can’t close plants because it will hurt local taxpayers?

    wow!

    😉

    1. Steve Haner Avatar
      Steve Haner

      Well we are watching the Democrats on this one, and they do love their taxes. As the fossil fuels are replaced by solar, don’t forget solar is now being given major local tax breaks by the General Assembly, infuriating local governments.

      To your earlier point, have the climate warriors deluded you into thinking its per capita CO2 that matters? If CO2 is driving the climate, it would the gross global output, and that is what must be tracked and controlled. You didn’t like hearing good news (which will be ignored in the MSM) and immediately tried to throw sand with irrelevant data.

      1. Reed Fawell 3rd Avatar
        Reed Fawell 3rd

        “As the fossil fuels are replaced by solar, don’t forget solar is now being given major local tax breaks by the General Assembly, infuriating local governments.”

        Yes, the members of the Virginia General Assembly are screwing their own citizens and cluttering up their historic lands wherein they and their children live, all in return for dollars from the industries doing the damage to those citizens, their children, and the places wherein they all live, and have lived for generations.

        What a corrupt government Virginia has, doing such lasting damage to the lives, legacy, and heritage of so many Virginians.

  14. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    so we can’t close plants because it will hurt local taxpayers?

    wow!

    😉

  15. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    You are sooooo partisan on this Steve… add that to you being a skeptic and tendency to name call those you disagree with and what do we get?

    and what “good news”?

    and to wit – I’m ALSO critical of what the GA did but at least they did SOMETHING as compared to the prior folks in control who saw fit to not only do nothing but neuter the SCC and essentially give away ratepayers money owed them to Dominion… yet you whine about the Dems and taxes – look at the GOP and what they did to ratepayers!

    The bigger problem with Climate – for those that are really concerned about it vice those who like to spitball..

    it’s the developed countries use of fossil fuels that adds up to a lot per capita.. the lesser developed countries who have low per capita emissions – have very little they can really do about it – it’s about numbers of people and how much per person. If we’re going to materially affect the problem – we have to address the emissions and the vast majority of them are coming from the developed countries which are largely electrified 24/7 and have substantial automobile emissions.

    You guys – ya’ll DEFLECT from the issues … and blame the folks trying to do something about it …because it’s “flawed” and not perfect, what an attitude! With naysayers…it’s more about being part of the problem than being part of the solution!

  16. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    You are sooooo partisan on this Steve… add that to you being a skeptic and tendency to name call those you disagree with and what do we get?

    and what “good news”?

    and to wit – I’m ALSO critical of what the GA did but at least they did SOMETHING as compared to the prior folks in control who saw fit to not only do nothing but neuter the SCC and essentially give away ratepayers money owed them to Dominion… yet you whine about the Dems and taxes – look at the GOP and what they did to ratepayers!

    The bigger problem with Climate – for those that are really concerned about it vice those who like to spitball..

    it’s the developed countries use of fossil fuels that adds up to a lot per capita.. the lesser developed countries who have low per capita emissions – have very little they can really do about it – it’s about numbers of people and how much per person. If we’re going to materially affect the problem – we have to address the emissions and the vast majority of them are coming from the developed countries which are largely electrified 24/7 and have substantial automobile emissions.

    You guys – ya’ll DEFLECT from the issues … and blame the folks trying to do something about it …because it’s “flawed” and not perfect, what an attitude! With naysayers…it’s more about being part of the problem than being part of the solution!

  17. Atlas Rand Avatar
    Atlas Rand

    One thing frequently overlooked about the Wise County plant is the environmental good it has done. SW Va has many gob piles, or reject spoil piles from coal cleaning and processing, all over the place. These consist of coal fines that could not be recovered, rock, and other waste. These leach into the surrounding watersheds, significantly impacting water quality in rivers such as the Levisa and Clinch. The Virginia City Hybrid plant can burn this rock and coal mixture when mixed with wood chips, so has provided a new economic boost of “remining” these gob piles to use for fuel. This has seriously helped the water quality in the area.

    1. Rowinguy Avatar
      Rowinguy

      While the plant is capable of burning waste coal and biomass materials, would you happen to know whether it ever HAS combusted such stuff?

  18. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    To give everyone an idea of what Atlas Rand is talking about:

    http://www.amrclearinghouse.org/images/TideGobPile5Small.jpg

    and yes, they are all over Appalachia – and for those worried about how terrible solar panels and wind turbines look – this is what your electricity that you – actually looked like when it was coal – and nary a whimper from those all torn up over solar panel “blight”.

  19. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    Gee Larry, with my mother’s family being from Southwest Virginia since the time the Revolution, this is all such news to me…..You, your parents and their parents saw unprecedented economic growth, enjoyed far easier lifestyles, and build that famous Arsenal of Democracy with the heat, electricity and steel produced in those mountains, and at the time gave no thought to the mess being created. The best line in the movie “Ford vs. Ferrari” is when Henry Ford II turns to somebody, talks about the war production at the Detroit Rouge River plant, and asks, “You didn’t think FDR won the war, did you?”

    Yes, Jane, the Clover plant in Southside VA is Dominion and ODEC and it does not have to close with the other coal plants under this bill.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      no Steve, none of the folks in the Eastern cities and counties knew that western Virginia, West Virginia, Kentucky, etc were clearcut of the big timber and the rivers ran with mud, then the deep coal mines bubbled up acid into the streams killing all fish, then the mountain tops were blown off and gob piles stewn about…. etc..

      but the POINT was/is that all these folks whining about the solar panel devastation never had one peep to say about electricity from coal mining in West Virginia and Western Va.

      When people say that solar is CLEAN – if one really does know where coal came from and what was done to countryside to get it – then they do KNOW that solar IS clean compared to coal.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      re: ” .You, your parents and their parents saw unprecedented economic growth, enjoyed far easier lifestyles, and build that famous Arsenal of Democracy with the heat, electricity and steel produced in those mountains, and at the time gave no thought to the mess being created. ”

      and so we are morally and financially responsible for cleaning it up?

      If jobs are the issue down that way – cleaning up the gob is a win-win.

      right?

  20. Atlas Rand Avatar
    Atlas Rand

    Larry, those are some beautiful pictures of some surface mining. As a mine engineer who worked as a production foreman extracting that coal, and then for our COV issuing the permits and inspecting those sites, you choose the period it absolutely looks the worst. Show some of the after mining photos of beautiful vegetation and abundant wildlife on properly backfilled slopes. The gob piles I discussed date back to pre-SMCRA, many from the turn of the century to the 50s. Coal mining isn’t perfect nor harmless, but has made many strides in protecting the land and returning it to a decent condition post mining since SMCRA in 1977. Also without a doubt, the water quality betterment from the Va City plant outweighs the minimal air pollution from the burning of the gob.

  21. TBill Avatar
    TBill

    Quick if you are interested TV interview CNBC coming up shortly on Cramer with Dominion CEO re: the 2050 plans.

    1. TBill Avatar
      TBill

      Well the interview was quite general.

      But one keyword he said was “small modular nuclear reactors” which he said might be controversial for some. Actually I could possibly support that. He said something about renewable natural gas leadership of Dominion, guess he means landfiill gas.

      He also mentioned carbon sequestration. I would think nat gas CO2 recovery could be doable. I could also see making H2 from nat gas with sequestration of CO2. That assumes a move in later decades to H2 fuel cells.

      1. TBill Avatar
        TBill

        OK so what Dominion said was the Amazons and cloud cos. want the carbon free power, so Dominion plans the offshore wind project. OK but I have to pay for that.

  22. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    I’m hoping for technology both nukes and storage. I’ve heard about small modular nukes but for some reason, they are not progressing and getting to the point where they are buildable and don’t know why.

    And don’t forget, we ALREADY have small nukes on some of our warships… and not a bad safety record.

    Any kind of nuke that could safely shut down if things go sideways and if smaller then all the better and PRIMO would be Nukes that can modulate instead of only being able to run flat out 24/7 or OFF.

    If modular Nukes that can ramp up and down came online – it would totally change the dynamics of Green. because the perfect complement would be solar/wind and we’d not need gas near as much and the back and forth over climate would be quieted.

    Something like this IS going to happen – it’s not if but when.

    I’m surprised that Dominion is talking nukes… well maybe not – Maybe they’re going to rebrand North Anna 3 as a “small modular”?

    😉

    1. TBill Avatar
      TBill

      Yes I wonder how small is small

  23. Atlas Rand Avatar
    Atlas Rand

    One thing frequently overlooked about the Wise County plant is the environmental good it has done. SW Va has many gob piles, or reject spoil piles from coal cleaning and processing, all over the place. These consist of coal fines that could not be recovered, rock, and other waste. These leach into the surrounding watersheds, significantly impacting water quality in rivers such as the Levisa and Clinch. The Virginia City Hybrid plant can burn this rock and coal mixture when mixed with wood chips, so has provided a new economic boost of “remining” these gob piles to use for fuel. This has seriously helped the water quality in the area.

    1. Rowinguy Avatar
      Rowinguy

      While the plant is capable of burning waste coal and biomass materials, would you happen to know whether it ever HAS combusted such stuff?

  24. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    To give everyone an idea of what Atlas Rand is talking about:

    http://www.amrclearinghouse.org/images/TideGobPile5Small.jpg

    and yes, they are all over Appalachia – and for those worried about how terrible solar panels and wind turbines look – this is what your electricity that you – actually looked like when it was coal – and nary a whimper from those all torn up over solar panel “blight”.

    Here’s what also went along with those Gob Piles, entire mountains strip mined:

    http://appvoices.org/images/uploads/2009/10/mtr-by-Kent-Mason.jpg

  25. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    To give everyone an idea of what Atlas Rand is talking about:

    http://www.amrclearinghouse.org/images/TideGobPile5Small.jpg

    and yes, they are all over Appalachia – and for those worried about how terrible solar panels and wind turbines look – this is what your electricity that you – actually looked like when it was coal – and nary a whimper from those all torn up over solar panel “blight”.

    Here’s what also went along with those Gob Piles, entire mountains strip mined:

    http://appvoices.org/images/uploads/2009/10/mtr-by-Kent-Mason.jpg

  26. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    To give everyone an idea of what Atlas Rand is talking about:

    http://www.amrclearinghouse.org/images/TideGobPile5Small.jpg

    and yes, they are all over Appalachia – and for those worried about how terrible solar panels and wind turbines look – this is what your electricity that you – actually looked like when it was coal – and nary a whimper from those all torn up over solar panel “blight”.

  27. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    And those along with the gob piles, in a lot of places in Appalachia, entire mountain tops were removed – to provide “clean” power for places like NoVa…

    Here’s what also went along with those Gob Piles, entire mountains strip mined:

    http://appvoices.org/images/uploads/2009/10/mtr-by-Kent-Mason.jpg

    but of course, now those awful looking solar panels are at issue.

    As long as it was mountain tops and gob piles in Appalachia generating the electricity, it was fine and dandy.

    Not sure burning those gob piles is any less polluting than burning coal to be honest – looks like which is the lesser of the two evils.
    I would not think those folks who live downwind from the gob-burning stacks would be safe.

    1. Jane Twitmyer Avatar
      Jane Twitmyer

      Never knew about those gobs … but they look like as supply of free fuel and it is a pretty good guess that they are not pollution free.
      The mountain top mining has actually taken the tops off 500 mountains and thrown a lots of the diggings into the streams that start high up there in the mts.

      NOVEC does own some generation, a biofuel plant somewhere and CVEC is putting up solar generation in several places. In the past the CoOps have been closely tied to Dominion through part ownership in some generation facilities.

    2. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      Wow. That looks a lot like a lithium mine.

    3. WayneS Avatar
      WayneS

      “Not sure burning those gob piles is any less polluting than burning coal to be honest – looks like which is the lesser of the two evils.
      I would not think those folks who live downwind from the gob-burning stacks would be safe.”

      I’m pretty sure they use circulating fluidized bed (CFB) technology to burn “gob”. These have much lower emissions than a typical coal-fired plant.

      1. LarrytheG Avatar
        LarrytheG

        that could be. I’ve have to see some convincing data to be convinced.

        here’s one:

        https://www.usea.org/sites/default/files/102013_Techno-economic%20analysis%20of%20PC%20versus%20CFB%20combustion%20technology_ccc226.pdf

        I don’t think it’s any better than pulverized coal on mercury and other emissions.

        high temps don’t get rid of the mercury and SO – it just sends them up the stacks.

        1. WayneS Avatar
          WayneS

          That’s nice. You condemn the technology for not being able to remove something you already know it can’t remove. It’s not like CFB plants don’t also have stack scrubbers.

          The bottom line is the piles of gob exist. They can’t be left in place to continue polluting the groundwater. Technology exists to burn the stuff with lower, or at worst the same, emissions as a modern PCC power plant. You oppose it.

          That’s interesting, considering that just a few posts above this one you accused other people of rejecting the flawed in pursuit of the perfect.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            well no… scrubbers are “tuned” to the composition of the effluent which in turn is dependent on the composition of what is being burned.

            I don’t know much about the fluidized bed technology but I suspect it’s not any cleaner than pulverized coal and pulverized coal is highly polluting and the reason why those plants are being closed.

            On the Gob – that’s raw materials out of the ground basically – verses coal ash which is the concentrated heavy metal waste from burning 10 times as much original coal.

            The consensus for coal ash is to move it to lined pits so it will not pollute ground water. I suspect the same might be true of gob if gob is really leeching but I also suspect that it’s not recognized as well as coal ash is.

            Gob is just one of the problems in that region. As much a problem is acid leeching out of mines and into waterways and as far as I know, it too is not being dealt with. If that is the main problem with gob – i.e. coal/rock with sulfur – then it too would be leeching acid .. not sure what else.

            The problems in WVa and SW Va in terms of land mined for coal are overwhelming. Fixing one gob pile won’t fix it. You could fix all the gob piles and still have water quality issues from abandoned deep mines and mountaintops not properly reclaimed.

            And I do understand what this plant is about. It provides jobs and it gets rid of gob piles – but I think you’re probably trading the gob piles for air pollutants. Perhaps on that basis – one could argue that once you burn the gob pile, it will no longer pollute the ground water.

            These issues are much harder to deal with than relatively simple things like coal ash – because the coal ash is basically where the plants were whereas the gob piles are everywhere than coal was mined – thousands and thousands of places.

            The only way to really deal with it – is to figure out if putting the gob in lined pits is more cost effective than other options and need to find the money – which if the world were fair – would come from all of us that used electricity that came from coal – just like we’re going to have to pay for the coal ash cleanup.

            re: flawed versus perfect

            that’s a fair criticism but not quite the same. I was advocating going forward with a cleaner technology that still is not perfected. This is about cleaning up something already done cleaning up one and not cleaning up the others is not “flawed” or not “perfect” – it just does not fix anything at all if there are lots of other piles.

            We need to understand exactly what pollution is coming from the gob piles – i.e. is it as bad as the coal ash piles?

            and we need to know how many gob piles and how much it will cost to remediate them.

            I don’t think they qualify as superfund sites so the basic problem is who will pay and for how long.

            I’m in favor of that – but not in favor of using them for fuel as a method of cleanup. I think it’s frying pan into the fire -literally.

            If it is jobs, then cleaning up the gob piles by putting them in lined pits is jobs also… and much less polluting.

          2. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            Let me ask one more thing. Who is paying to go get the gob and bring it to the plant to be burned?

            It has to cost a lot of money to use heavy equipment to load dump trucks and truck that material to a plant.
            The gob pile might be free but the equipment and labor are not.

        2. Steve Haner Avatar
          Steve Haner

          You pay, Larry – the Wise County plant costs residential ratepayers more than $4 for every 1K kWh, far higher than any of the other RACs added to bills for these new plants.

          1. LarrytheG Avatar
            LarrytheG

            How did that happen, Steve? Has a rent-seeking, crony-capitalism smell to it, eh?

  28. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    And those along with the gob piles, in a lot of places in Appalachia, entire mountain tops were removed – to provide “clean” power for places like NoVa…

    Here’s what also went along with those Gob Piles, entire mountains strip mined:

    http://appvoices.org/images/uploads/2009/10/mtr-by-Kent-Mason.jpg

    but of course, now those awful looking solar panels are at issue.

    As long as it was mountain tops and gob piles in Appalachia generating the electricity, it was fine and dandy.

    Not sure burning those gob piles is any less polluting than burning coal to be honest – looks like which is the lesser of the two evils.
    I would not think those folks who live downwind from the gob-burning stacks would be safe.

  29. Steve Haner Avatar
    Steve Haner

    Gee Larry, with my mother’s family being from Southwest Virginia since the time the Revolution, this is all such news to me…..You, your parents and their parents saw unprecedented economic growth, enjoyed far easier lifestyles, and build that famous Arsenal of Democracy with the heat, electricity and steel produced in those mountains, and at the time gave no thought to the mess being created. The best line in the movie “Ford vs. Ferrari” is when Henry Ford II turns to somebody, talks about the war production at the Detroit Rouge River plant, and asks, “You didn’t think FDR won the war, did you?”

    Yes, Jane, the Clover plant in Southside VA is Dominion and ODEC and it does not have to close with the other coal plants under this bill.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      no Steve, none of the folks in the Eastern cities and counties knew that western Virginia, West Virginia, Kentucky, etc were clearcut of the big timber and the rivers ran with mud, then the deep coal mines bubbled up acid into the streams killing all fish, then the mountain tops were blown off and gob piles stewn about…. etc..

      but the POINT was/is that all these folks whining about the solar panel devastation never had one peep to say about electricity from coal mining in West Virginia and Western Va.

      When people say that solar is CLEAN – if one really does know where coal came from and what was done to countryside to get it – then they do KNOW that solar IS clean compared to coal.

    2. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      re: ” .You, your parents and their parents saw unprecedented economic growth, enjoyed far easier lifestyles, and build that famous Arsenal of Democracy with the heat, electricity and steel produced in those mountains, and at the time gave no thought to the mess being created. ”

      and so we are morally and financially responsible for cleaning it up?

      If jobs are the issue down that way – cleaning up the gob is a win-win.

      right?

  30. Atlas Rand Avatar
    Atlas Rand

    Larry, those are some beautiful pictures of some surface mining. As a mine engineer who worked as a production foreman extracting that coal, and then for our COV issuing the permits and inspecting those sites, you choose the period it absolutely looks the worst. Show some of the after mining photos of beautiful vegetation and abundant wildlife on properly backfilled slopes. The gob piles I discussed date back to pre-SMCRA, many from the turn of the century to the 50s. Coal mining isn’t perfect nor harmless, but has made many strides in protecting the land and returning it to a decent condition post mining since SMCRA in 1977. Also without a doubt, the water quality betterment from the Va City plant outweighs the minimal air pollution from the burning of the gob.

    1. LarrytheG Avatar
      LarrytheG

      @Atlas – I’m a paddler of West Virginia Streams. I’ve been through much of the countryside.

      Yes.. there are some very nice reclaimed sites.

      There are also a bunch of the other kind not reclaimed including acid mine waste throughout much of West Virginia where there ought to be trout streams.

      In terms of the plant that burns GOB – let me ask.. why is that any different than burning coal? Isn’t a lot of the gob – coal?

      Modern coal plants use pulverized coal – it’s blown into the boilers almost like a mist… it’s not like the old way of burning coal.

      1. Atlas Rand Avatar
        Atlas Rand

        The difference is that it can burn the gob, the rock, and any other impurities with no processing done besides screening out trash or other debris.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          Yes.. I understand that – but why would it pollute any less than burning coal with less stuff in it? If Fluidized Bed was actually better than pulverized coal – less polluting – then converting coal plants to that method might have kept them in service, no?

          I’m just skeptical that it is any less polluting than other coal unless I see some clear evidence.

          The trouble with air emissions versus water quality is that you can see the water runoff but once something goes up the stack, it’s invisible but still highly polluted.

  31. TBill Avatar
    TBill

    Quick if you are interested TV interview CNBC coming up shortly on Cramer with Dominion CEO re: the 2050 plans.

    1. TBill Avatar
      TBill

      Well the interview was quite general.

      But one keyword he said was “small modular nuclear reactors” which he said might be controversial for some. Actually I could possibly support that. He said something about renewable natural gas leadership of Dominion, guess he means landfiill gas.

      He also mentioned carbon sequestration. I would think nat gas CO2 recovery could be doable. I could also see making H2 from nat gas with sequestration of CO2. That assumes a move in later decades to H2 fuel cells.

      1. TBill Avatar
        TBill

        OK so what Dominion said was the Amazons and cloud cos. want the carbon free power, so Dominion plans the offshore wind project. OK but I have to pay for that.

        1. LarrytheG Avatar
          LarrytheG

          With the SCC out of the way, Dominion is saying: “We’ll do anything you want us to do. You just gotta pay – cost plus!

          Now I used to believe it was the GOP that was corrupted but then we got a hint about the Dems when Northam did not oppose the ACP and now the truth is out – the Dems are just fine with ordering up all kinds of “green” cost be damned.. and Dominion is as happy as a pig in slop.

          what’s not to like?

          Oh, we’re gonna get the bill whether it’s the GOP in control or the Dems.

          but there is an up side – the more electricity costs, the less we will use… we’ll be pushed faster into installing energy-efficient technology and that fits with RGGI… VOILA!

  32. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    I’m hoping for technology both nukes and storage. I’ve heard about small modular nukes but for some reason, they are not progressing and getting to the point where they are buildable and don’t know why.

    And don’t forget, we ALREADY have small nukes on some of our warships… and not a bad safety record.

    Any kind of nuke that could safely shut down if things go sideways and if smaller then all the better and PRIMO would be Nukes that can modulate instead of only being able to run flat out 24/7 or OFF.

    If modular Nukes that can ramp up and down came online – it would totally change the dynamics of Green. because the perfect complement would be solar/wind and we’d not need gas near as much and the back and forth over climate would be quieted.

    Something like this IS going to happen – it’s not if but when.

    I’m surprised that Dominion is talking nukes… well maybe not – Maybe they’re going to rebrand North Anna 3 as a “small modular”?

    😉

    1. TBill Avatar
      TBill

      Yes I wonder how small is small

  33. Jane Twitmyer Avatar
    Jane Twitmyer

    Couldn’t find what I was looking for … here is a Forbes piece that is much more positive than anything I have read before … AND NB the company has an office in Arlington
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2018/05/15/nuscales-small-modular-nuclear-reactor-passes-biggest-hurdle-yet/#7e6533795bb5

  34. Jane Twitmyer Avatar
    Jane Twitmyer

    Couldn’t find what I was looking for … here is a Forbes piece that is much more positive than anything I have read before … AND NB the company has an office in Arlington
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2018/05/15/nuscales-small-modular-nuclear-reactor-passes-biggest-hurdle-yet/#7e6533795bb5

  35. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Thanks Jane!

    ” This first application will take advantage of the SMR’s specific ability to completely load-follow UAMPS wind farms.”

    wow

    “But the real power of SMRs are the fact that they can’t melt down.
    It just shuts down and cools off.

    wow2!

    It’s this or something like it that will transform the gas versus renewables debate.

    makes you wonder what Dominion is REALLY thinking!

    and perhaps that’s why they think natural gas will power ships instead?

    😉

  36. LarrytheG Avatar
    LarrytheG

    Thanks Jane!

    ” This first application will take advantage of the SMR’s specific ability to completely load-follow UAMPS wind farms.”

    wow

    “But the real power of SMRs are the fact that they can’t melt down.
    It just shuts down and cools off.

    wow2!

    It’s this or something like it that will transform the gas versus renewables debate.

    makes you wonder what Dominion is REALLY thinking!

    and perhaps that’s why they think natural gas will power ships instead?

    😉

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